--- Log opened Sat Dec 17 00:00:07 2011
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00:39 < st_> what happened to Ashenzari bot?
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01:02 < Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2816-g6d5497f (32)
01:16 < Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2816-g6d5497f
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06:00 < Gretell> OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2816-g6d5497f
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10:02 < alefury> suggestion from the tavern:
10:02 < alefury> The amulet "Negation" {rMut, MR, rF+, rC+, rN+, -CAST}. A powdery red amulet. A small amulet made of an unremarkable looking red stone. It is designed to protect the wielder from all the harmful effects of magic, especially the self-inflicted ones.
10:02 < alefury> that actually sounds cool
10:03 < alefury> except it should be some kind of armor so you cant easily switch it
10:03 < alefury> circlet of negation or something
10:03 < alefury> (cap)
10:03 < alefury> maybe even a wizard hat :)
10:07 < alefury> or a robe
10:13 < Eronarn> nothing wrong with switching it imo
10:13 < Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2816-g6d5497f (32)
10:14 < alefury> i think that would make it a bit silly
10:14 < alefury> just switch away when you want to cast something
10:14 < alefury> there should be at least a little cost to switching
10:14 < alefury> alternatively, curse
10:19 < Eronarn> alefury: turn cost is a cost
10:20 < alefury> rarely having to spend one turn for so many resists is too cheap imo
10:21 <+kilobyte> madly overpowered to me
10:21 <+kilobyte> sure, you won't want to use it on a conjurer
10:21 < Eronarn> 'rarely'? if you don't have spells -cast won't matter anyways, and if you do you'll want to not be wearing it quite often
10:22 < casmith789> does crawl need more unrandarts? that one sounds very powerful
10:22 <+kilobyte> an AC char will give his left nut for this
10:22 < casmith789> rF+ MR is pretty great at the best of times
10:22 <+kilobyte> (not that you need both nads after the game ends)
10:22 < Eronarn> it's quite good, yes
10:23 < Eronarn> i wouldn't make it any better, but i don't think it's so good that it couldn't be used
10:23 < alefury> i really like the description :)
10:23 < alefury> maybe it could work as a robe
10:23 < casmith789> by "an AC char" do you mean a non-caster? because the two aren't synonymous. But yes, it's still very strong
10:26 < st_> it's pretty similar to hat of the alchemist
10:26 < Eronarn> except for the whole -cast thing
10:28 <+MarvinPA_> it doesn't strike me as particularly interesting, regardless of balance issues
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10:38 <+kilobyte> and rMut, which is a massive thing
10:39 < casmith789> rMut is almost entirely irrelevant for most chars - most chars being 3 runers.
10:39 < casmith789> only on zot:5 is it really an issue, and by then you don't care about your character warping, just that he gets the orb.
10:40 < casmith789> s/warp/mutat/
10:40 <+|amethyst> I got encompass vaults in pan working... should I also remove the WEIGHT: 0 on evilmike's vault or is it still not ready?
10:41 < alefury> the "loot only on enemies" thing got lost in transmission
10:41 < alefury> so currently its free loot for good got worshipers
10:41 <+|amethyst> oh, I see in his commit "Once that is fixed this vault can be enabled."
10:41 <+|amethyst> okay, then
10:41 < alefury> also, zero balancing done on it afaik, but i suppose it could be enabled
10:42 < alefury> how else to balance the holy monsters, after all so far many of them only spawn in one or two vaults and in zigs
10:42 <+|amethyst> the other issue was balancing the level for good and demonic/undead players
10:43 <+kilobyte> the former is easy: all loot on monsters, best items in large groups
10:43 <+|amethyst> what weight to give it?  default, or lower?
10:44 < alefury> a big high, for testing?
10:44 <+kilobyte> the latter: well, it's not like Pan lacks the Hellion Isle
10:44 <+kilobyte> |amethyst: have you managed to fix the encompass bug?
10:44 <+|amethyst> yes
10:44 <+kilobyte> oh, good then
10:46 < alefury> i think if its supposed to be in .10 weight should be high for now. not that much time left, after all. and pan doesnt get played that much.
10:46 < st_> sure it does
10:47 < alefury> not compared to d or snake or something
10:47 < st_> if it has any weight at all people will probably see it
10:47 < alefury> !lg * won / urune=15
10:47 < Sequell> 6150 games for * (won): N=1051/6150 (17.09%)
10:48 < alefury> !lg * xl>20 / rune=demonic
10:48 < Sequell> Unknown selector: rune
10:48 < alefury> !lm * xl>20 / rune=demonic
10:48 < Sequell> 388911 milestones for * (xl>20): N=4637/388911 (1.19%)
10:49 < alefury> hm, that query is wrong
10:49 < alefury> !lg * xl>20 s=
10:49 < Sequell> Unknown selector: s
10:50 < alefury> !lg * xl>20 / xl>20
10:50 < Sequell> 12507 games for * (xl>20): N=12507/12507 (100.00%)
10:50 < alefury> hm, that cant be right either
10:50 < alefury> forget it
10:53 < casmith789> what are you trying to do?
10:56 < alefury> i want to list how many chars that reach xl>20 get a demonic rune
10:56 < alefury> or rather, what percentage of chars that reach xl > 20 do
10:57 < alefury> 4600/12500 seems a bit much
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10:58 < alefury> might work if i restrict it to versions where demonic runes are unique
10:59 <+|amethyst> !lm * rune=demonic x=cdist(gid)
10:59 < Sequell> 4650 milestones for * (rune=demonic): cdist(game_id)=1814
10:59 <+|amethyst> 1814 different games got a demonic rune
11:00 <+|amethyst> (with all games that have not yet ended counting as 1)
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11:07 < CIA-54> |amethyst * r6aee0a7caf0a /crawl-ref/source/ (dat/des/branches/pan.des dungeon.cc): Allow encompass vaults in Pan, enable evilmike_holy_pan.
11:07 <+|amethyst> I used the default weight, but I can see the arguments for making it higher
11:07 <+|amethyst> for testing, that is
11:09 < alefury> yay, i sucessfully built crawl on windows!
11:12 < alefury> two things that should probably be added to the building on windows section of install.txt:
11:12 <+Zaba> uhhh
11:12 < alefury> msysgit should be installed to a path that does not contain spaces, such as the default location c:/msysgit
11:12 <+Zaba> hmmm.
11:12 < alefury> and 'git submodule --init' gets you the contribs
11:12 <+|amethyst> does the crawl source also have to be in a path that does not contain spaces?
11:13 < alefury> i havent tried that
11:14 < alefury> i suppose i could
11:14 <+|amethyst> The submodule thing is already there under the "Source Code Checkout" section
11:15 < alefury> ah. i was using git/quickstart.txt for that part...
11:18 <+SamB> alefury: hmm
11:18 <+SamB> alefury: I have MSYS in such a directory, but a separate git that is in Program Files
11:18 <+SamB> and it works okay
11:18 < alefury> it was failing during make
11:19 < alefury> when it tried to use some command, and C:\Program wasnt a command
11:19 <+SamB> It may be relevant that MSYS is earlier in my PATH than the git install
11:21 <+SamB> I'm just saying this because it might be helpful for stubborn folks like me who don't want to install msysgit because they've already got MSYS and git anyway...
11:21 <+SamB> ... possibly because they're low on disk space ...
11:21  * SamB actually has the MSYS install on a flash drive ;-)
11:23 < Wensley> alefury: the git submodule init part is listed on this page, which is the one I always use: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/downloads
11:23  * SamB wonders if MSYS actually cares -- it may only matter for the MINGW part?
11:24 <+|amethyst> I suspect it matters for all things where the makefile uses `which`
11:24 < CIA-54> MarvinPA * r58b636d450df /crawl-ref/source/ (monster.cc player.cc): Make monsters with rF get steam res like the player, cap both at 3
11:24 < alefury> cloning crawl into M:\test test test worked, and make is working so far
11:25 <+SamB> |amethyst: well, I say this because MSYS thinks of its part of the tree as being /, and MinGW's as being /mingw
11:25 <+|amethyst> alefury:  when you did get the error, was it on a run of lex or yacc?
11:26 < alefury> hmm, i pastebinned the error, but looks like it timed out
11:26 < alefury> iirc it was something starting with w, right after leaving the rltiles directory
11:27 <+SamB> to the point where getting the Windows path out of which requires gymnastics like this: C:\code\crawl\crawl-ref\source>which sh
11:27 <+SamB> C:\code\crawl\crawl-ref\source>E:\MinGW\msys\1.0\bin\sh.exe -c "cmd //C echo $(which sh)"
11:27 <+SamB> E:/MinGW/msys/1.0/bin/sh.exe
11:28  * SamB wrote the .cmd script himself
11:29 <+SamB> which works because MSYS translates paths being passed to non-MSYS commands into normal Windows form
11:29 <+SamB> Such dirty hacks wouldn't be required if they would only include the cygpath binary, but they're being stubborn about that for some reason ...
11:30 < alefury> i think the thing that failed was windres
11:30 < alefury> windres icon.o to be specific
11:30 < alefury> compiling with the crawl repo in a folder with spaces works, just msysgit needs to be installed somewhere without
11:31 <+|amethyst> hm
11:31 <+|amethyst> wonder why that's happening
11:31 <+|amethyst> it's just   WINDRES = windres   so it shouldn't be using the complete path
11:31 <+|amethyst> is windres a script?
11:31 <+SamB> |amethyst: maybe MinGW windres doesn't work under space-laden paths?
11:32 <+SamB> no, windres is a .exe
11:32 < alefury> it looked like the call to windres failed
11:32 <+SamB> try with V=y
11:32 < alefury> the error message was C:\Program is not a valid command
11:32 < alefury> also, im not reinstalling msysgit again!
11:32 < alefury> and again after that to make it work again...
11:32 <+SamB> oh, but windres *is* a MinGW-native .exe
11:33 <+|amethyst> the makefile itself should be running just "windres"... so it does sound like an msysgit problem rather than a crawl problem
11:33 <+SamB> E:/MinGW/bin/windres.exe
11:33 <+SamB> so MSYS make will be translating any paths passed as arguments to Windows form ...
11:33 <+|amethyst> oh
11:34 <+SamB> which means that the path to the MSYS install will have spaces in it
11:34 <+SamB> now, why that would be a problem is beyond me ...
11:34  * SamB has to go
11:35 < alefury> telling people to just install msysgit somewhere without spaces should be enough
11:35 <+|amethyst> alefury:  should I be crediting you as alefury or galefury?
11:35 < alefury> having to jump through hoops to compile something on windows is expected, after all
11:36 < alefury> whatever, really
11:36 < alefury> hm, i suppose thats not helpful
11:36 <+|amethyst> looks like there's precedent for 'galefury' so I'll keep that if you have no objections
11:36 < alefury> sure
11:38 <+kilobyte> !tell due there's a dragon defined in volcano_bunker (yours), but it's not placed anywhere
11:38 < Henzell> kilobyte: OK, I'll let due know.
11:40 < alefury> any interest in this idea? https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:mutations#potion_of_evolution
11:40 < alefury> i feel like doing something with my newfound ability to compile crawl
11:41 <+|amethyst> btw, quickstart.txt and dcss:help:git have diverged
11:41 <+|amethyst> they should probably be reconciled
11:41 <+|amethyst> there are numerous other docs that are in both the source and the wiki, but aren't kept in sync
11:44 < CIA-54> |amethyst * rc8541a2892da /crawl-ref/ (INSTALL.txt docs/develop/git/quickstart.txt): Mention msysgit restriction, submodules (galefury).
11:45 < alefury> the no spaces thing should really be in install.txt too
11:45 <+|amethyst> alefury:  it is
11:45 <+|amethyst> wait
11:45 < alefury> cia says otherwise, i didnt check the actual commit
11:45 <+|amethyst> you mean INSTALL.TXT, right?
11:45 < alefury> yes
11:45 < alefury> oh
11:45 <+|amethyst> CIA mentions both :)
11:45 < alefury> im just blind, sorry
11:46 < alefury> space separated lists, ew
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13:03 < alefury> im currently implementiong potion of evolution (fully expecting it to never be added to crawl)
13:04 < alefury> should i add it to the fountain effects?
13:04 < alefury> if so, replace POT_MUTATION, half/half, or just add?
13:06 <+elliptic> it might help to know what it does :P
13:07 <+|amethyst> I can think of two possibilities
13:09 <+|amethyst> if it's like POT_MUTATION but gives a good mutation, it should probably have a frequency closer to (maybe lower than) gain foo
13:10 <+|amethyst> if it gives the evolution mutation, probably the same
13:10 <+|amethyst> or omit it from fountain effects... cure mut isn't there, nor is experience
13:13 < alefury> elliptic: linked it further up. https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:mutations#potion_of_evolution
13:13 < alefury> and it gives the evolution mutation, supposed to replace !mut
13:13 < alefury> for the reasons i mentioned on the wiki
13:15 < alefury> i halved the generation weight for now, evolution still has a significant chance to screw you with a bad mutation. and you dont know when it does. this would definitely require playtesting, though.
13:15 <+elliptic> I don't agree with the change :) and I've never drunk from a sparkling fountain, so not sure what to say about that...
13:17 < alefury> well, im mostly implementing this to get to know the crawl code. so i wont shed a tear if it doesnt get used.
13:18 < Wensley> alefury and I will create a new fork called mutcrawl, where terence has a mutating attack and potions of evolution litter the dungeon
13:19 < alefury> why restrict ourselves to terence? everyone can get mutating attacks :P
13:19 <+elliptic> (basically I don't think scumming is a big deal now that mutagenic corpses are much rarer, and if it is then that's a problem with distillation, not with !mut... and I don't see why having "permanent" and sometimes bad effects is a problem at all)
13:20 < Wensley> is the evolution mutation something new?
13:20 <+|amethyst> fairly new, yes
13:20 <+|amethyst> Mon Oct 31 22:55:02 2011 +0100
13:20 < Wensley> is it essentially what jiyva does to you?
13:21 < alefury> it gives good/random mutations over time, as you gain exp
13:21 <+|amethyst> eventually removing itself
13:22 < Wensley> that sounds like a fun mutation
13:22 < Wensley> I know my insane tournament team members will be thrilled
13:22 < Wensley> however, this will still not stop them from immediately drinking all potions of mutation, regardless of the consequences
13:23 < ZorbaTHut> will it still give the superbad mutations once in a while, like teleportitis, or does it avoid those?
13:23 < alefury> random is random, good is good
13:23 < alefury> and its 50/50
13:24 < alefury> so sure, it will sometimes give teleportitis etc
13:24 <+|amethyst> barely even runed
13:24 <+|amethyst> doh
13:25 < alefury> hm, i suppose i shouldn't implement it as a replacement, but as an addition...
13:25 < alefury> doesnt make much of a difference anyway, except for generation
13:25 < alefury> also this way i dont have to mess with distillation
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13:36 < alefury> what would be a good shop value? mutation is 30, highest price for temp effects (magic, resist) is 70, gain foo and cmut is 350, exp is 500. im thinking 100, maybe lower.
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13:37 <+elliptic> alefury: a potion that gives 10 mutations on average sounds a lot more like 350 (and rare)
13:37 < alefury> about 3 of them will be bad, though
13:37 < alefury> and ill have to double check that 10, i wanted to do that anyway
13:38 < alefury> (its almost certainly not 10)
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13:39 <+elliptic> it has a 1/10 chance of removing itself each time after it tries to give you a mutation
13:40 <+elliptic> assuming it doesn't fail to give you a mutation (which is a reasonable assumption, though I don't know the details there), that means 10 mutations on average
13:41 < chrisoelmueller> i like the idea of !evo replaing !mut, why not keep the name though?
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13:42 <+elliptic> (by "tries to give you a mutation" I actually mean call mutate())
13:42 < alefury> i havent looked closely into how randomly removing mutations and failure work.
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13:43 < alefury> but id expect something like 1/30 chance to randomly remove itself from what i know
13:43 < alefury> anyway, for an actual !mut replacement, the evolution mutation would probably need to be tweaked
13:44 < alefury> which i do mention on the wiki
13:46 <+elliptic> right, it should be a bit lower than 1/10... but still the mutation sticks around for a really long time currently, which is why I think making it a common potion is bad
13:46 <+elliptic> if you decreased the duration, that would make me less opposed to the idea, though I still don't see anything wrong with !mut as it is
13:47 <+elliptic> er, a bit lower than 10
13:47 <+evilmike> I missed the start of this discussion (still no channel logs), but if no one has pointed it out, its worth noting thate evolution is mostly positive. so if it's a potion is shouldn't be a common one like !mut is
13:47 <+evilmike> of course it can still screw up a character, just less likely than most other mutation sources
13:48 < alefury> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:mutations#potion_of_evolution :)
13:51 <+evilmike> thanks
13:52 <+evilmike> Even if !evo was added I'd prsonally keep !mut, because it's a dangerous potion that has a significant effect on the id game
13:52 < alefury> somehow i thought a lot more people kept track of wiki edits :/
13:53 <+elliptic> by the way, when to use !mut is far from being a nobrainer currently... if I've found a couple potions of cure mutation, I'm likely to try !mut, especially as an octopode or felid (since they really benefit from AC muts)
13:53 <+evilmike> I check this every day: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?do=recent&id=start
13:53 <+evilmike> but still, if someething was posted a while ago, it's easy to forget
13:54 <+evilmike> looks like that edit didn't have any message for it, probably why it's new to me
13:54 < G-Flex> does the evolution mutation sometimes remove mutations as well? can it remove itself?
13:54 < alefury> 2011-12-05 15:56 Show differences to current revisions dcss:brainstorm:misc:mutations – Potion of Evolution (!mut replacement) Galefury
13:54 < alefury> :P
13:55 < alefury> G-Flex: yes
13:55 <+evilmike> elliptic: I do that too, but it's not quite nobrainer status to me. I'll stockpile cure mut if I'm going to do pan or even slime sometimes... I can be a lot more lax around mutators
13:55 < G-Flex> ah
13:55 <+evilmike> in a normal 3 rune game I'll probably drink !mut if I have a good stockpile of !cmut though
13:56 < G-Flex> cure mut also doesn't always remove every mutation, and you might have/get good ones *and* bad ones
13:56 <+elliptic> evilmike: yes, exactly... we think about whether to do this, so it isn't a no-brainer :)
13:56 < alefury> i think in that case a higher number of mutations, but weighted towards good, also works better. because what G-Flex said.
13:56 < G-Flex> I will say that !mut is pretty annoying
13:57 <+elliptic> I'll also drink !mut happily on chars I don't care much about
13:57 < alefury> wouldnt getting evolution be more fun for those?
13:57 <+elliptic> no
13:58 <+elliptic> it really wouldn't... evolution gives you no immediate payoff
13:59 <+elliptic> besides, you have a decent chance of getting evolution anyway
13:59 <+elliptic> with the mutarobin playstyle
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14:00 <+elliptic> evolution requires gaining a ton of xp to catch up with the 3 mutations you get from a potion of mutation
14:01 <+elliptic> and multiple evolution potions would really not be exciting
14:01 < alefury> they speed up the process
14:01 <+elliptic> well, only two of them
14:01 < alefury> also, its part of the point
14:01 < alefury> i think its bad that you can quaff 30 potions of mutation in a row, stopping when you have a set you like
14:02 <+elliptic> you can't
14:02 <+elliptic> how are you getting them
14:02 < alefury> i had 30 last game
14:02 <+elliptic> really? was this after clearing all of D and V?
14:02 < alefury> from distilling, after vaults and D
14:02 <+elliptic> anyway, this is a problem with distillation clearly
14:02 < alefury> yes, so, late, but before extended
14:02 <+elliptic> not with !mut
14:03 < alefury> if youre commited you can just eat chunks as well?
14:03 <+elliptic> there are already several suggestions for eliminating that abuse, though I hadn't realized it was still a problem after nerfing mutagenic corpse generation
14:03 < ZorbaTHut> I saw someone on webtiles a few months back who had over 200 potions
14:03 <+elliptic> since I hadn't heard of anyone doing it since then
14:03 < alefury> its a far smaller problem
14:03 < ZorbaTHut> maybe that was before the nerf :V
14:03 <+elliptic> ZorbaTHut: maybe 0.8, yes
14:03 < alefury> also, 30 is far from enough to virtually guarantee a good set
14:04 <+evilmike> I've taken fulsome just to identify !mut recently
14:05 <+evilmike> it's something I do if I'm playing very carefully and using id scrolls on potions
14:05 < alefury> fulsome in general is a bit silly
14:05 < alefury> evap could be changed to only sometimes destroy the potion, and fulsome removed
14:06 <+evilmike> that's weird
14:06 < CIA-54> evilmike * r413837837ad4 /crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/pan.des: A few tweaks to evilmike_holy_pan.
14:06 < alefury> maybe, but fulsome is a horrible spell
14:06 <+evilmike> yeah
14:06 < alefury> and every time this is discussed, people absolutely want to keep evap
14:07 < ZorbaTHut> could add a spell or ability that transforms potions into potion-ammo. one potion of confusion -> 20 crystals of confusion
14:07 <+evilmike> I have a soft spot for evap, I will admit
14:08 <+evilmike> I think if fulsome is removed the best change would be to give strong effects for evaping all potions. Right now you just get fog or steam a lot of the time
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14:09 < alefury> what does "static int l_item_do_subtype (lua_State *ls)" in l_item.cc do? it contains some potion values, but not all.
14:11 <+|amethyst> it implements the  item.subtype  accessor in Lua
14:11 <+|amethyst> it probably only has the ones people have written scripts to care about :)
14:11 < alefury> hm. not messing with it, then.
14:13 < alefury> just tile and description left i guess
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14:16 <+|amethyst> and a quote
14:16 <+|amethyst> :)
14:24 < alefury> hm, that one should be easy
14:24 < alefury> im sure darvin said something nice
14:24 < alefury> *darwin
14:25 < alefury> alternatively, some christian fundamentalist quote
14:25 < Wensley> alternatively, a pokemon quote
14:25 < chrisoelmueller> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Evolution
14:26 <+|amethyst> if you could find something good from Lysenko or Larmarck that would be amusing :)
14:27 < Wensley> waitwaitwait, guys, stop. evolution violates the 300 year rule. this means crawl is creationist
14:28 <+evilmike> there are plenty of quotes newer than 300 years
14:28 < Wensley> even the concept of evolution is an aberration
14:31 <+|amethyst> it's nothing like the modern concept of evolution
14:31 < alefury> "you are genetically stable" also violates that rule btw
14:31 <+|amethyst> I'll agree with that one
14:31 < alefury> iirc the rmut mut messages mention this
14:32 < alefury> possibly it was something else
14:35 < alefury> description: A potion that changes your body over time. This might be an improvement.
14:35 < alefury> ?
14:36 < ghallberg> "Probably for the better, mostly."
14:36 < alefury> i dont really like body :(
14:36 < ghallberg> changes you?
14:36 < alefury> right
14:37 <+|amethyst> "causes you to change over time"
14:37 < ghallberg> Yeah, that's better.
14:37 <+|amethyst> to make it clear that the potion isn't producing the additional mutations, and e.g. ?vuln won't end it
14:38 < alefury> for comparison, the description of !mut: A potion which does very strange things to you.
14:39 < ghallberg> "A potion which changes your body over time. Probably for the better. Mostly."
14:39 <+|amethyst> in that case, the potion gives you the mutations immediately so it's more appropriate
14:40 <+|amethyst> I agree that it shouldn't say "body"
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14:40 <+|amethyst> that implies that the mutations will be physical or form-based, but they're not necessarily
14:46 < alefury> Life and love by love
14:46 < alefury> We passed through the cycles strange,
14:46 < alefury> And breath by breath and death by death
14:46 < alefury> We followed the chain of change.
14:46 < alefury>     Langdon Smith, in "Evolution" (1895)
14:46 <+|amethyst> nice
14:46 < alefury> the evolution mutation only does stuff if you kill enemies :)
14:46 < alefury> which is why i really like the last part
14:51 < alefury> ah, the wikiquotes version was weirdly truncated though
14:51 <+evilmike> you started in the middle of a line in that poem, I think
14:51 <+evilmike> I've read Evolution, not that I've memorized it. But the meter is wrong in the one you quoted
14:53 < alefury> yeah, i found a proper version
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15:10 < alefury> so, tiles
15:10 < alefury> wtf?
15:11 <+evilmike> tiles for what? evolution?
15:11 < alefury> i made one that likely needs improvement, but my actual problem is compilation
15:11 <+evilmike> oh
15:12 <+evilmike> I just built tiles about an hour ago so it's working fine as far as I can tell
15:12 <+evilmike> does make TILES=y not work?
15:12 < alefury> it seems like i need to specify a tile when i introduce a new potion, and i have no idea how
15:12 < alefury> it makes make not work
15:13 < alefury> i suppose that is because recently tile enums were added to console builds
15:13 <+evilmike> did you add the tile to the stuff in source/rltiles?
15:15 < alefury> nope. i have no idea how to assign a tile to something, and i dont want to deal with the recompression marathon
15:15 <+evilmike> don't worry about the recompression part, just upload the tile and someone else can do it for you
15:16 <+evilmike> for now you can use an uncompressed tile, it will work fine. The file in rltiles you want to edit is dc-item.txt, I think
15:16 < alefury> mhh, just naming it i-evolution.png and dumping it into the potions folder did exactly nothing
15:16 <+evilmike> yeah, that won't work
15:18 < alefury> hm, ill figure this out yet!
15:20 < alefury> is there some way to speed up compilation?
15:21 < alefury> i do use make clean an awful lot to be sure everything is actually done correctly. is that necessary?
15:24 <+kilobyte> MarvinPA: just got Ignite Blood as a high level DS^Fedhas.  Any attempt to use abilities other than corona -> some monster bleeds in combat, the plant immediately goes up in flames, with an "extreme" piety hit.
15:25 <+kilobyte> MarvinPA: is that intentional?
15:28 <+kilobyte> if it is, perhaps we should somehow weasel in a ban on Fedhas for DS, or deal with the facet somehow
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15:31 < alefury> demons are immortal, right? outside of the cycle of nature?
15:32 < alefury> would be a bit sad to ban them from fedhas worship, though
15:32 <+kilobyte> demons perhaps, demonspawn are humans with a trace of demonic ancestry
15:32 < alefury> they do have demon blood, though
15:32 < alefury> fedhas might even hate trace amounts of nature defiance
15:32 <+kilobyte> an ancestor many generations ago, yeah
15:33 < alefury> oh. many generations ago
15:33 < alefury> i thought they were the direct offspring of a human and a demon, however that may work
15:34 < ais523> alefury: D&D style, several demons were capable of polymorphing into human-appearance forms
15:34 < ais523> which would make intercourse entirely possible
15:34 <+kilobyte> in D&D almost every pair of species can produce viable offspring
15:35 < alefury> maybe mommy used too much evil magic during pregnancy
15:35 <+kilobyte> I heard there's a table in some splatbook that is riddled with "yes"
15:35 <+kilobyte> IIRC the only hard rule in D&D is that if you have any demonic ancestry, you can't have a kid with celestials
15:40 < alefury> hm. evolution only has two levels. what message to give on general failure? what message to give if level is already 2?
15:41 < alefury> i currently have "You cannot evolve faster.", but i would prefer a message that fits both general failure and failure due to max mutation level
15:41 < Wensley> alefury: you are the pinnacle of evolution
15:41 < alefury> should i just use "You feel strange for a moment."?
15:44 < alefury> hm, general failure already gives "you feel odd for a moment", so i only need to deal with mutation max level, which currently doesnt give a message
15:44 < alefury> also, evolving fast doesnt mean being the pinnacle of evolution :/
15:45 < alefury> also, should using the potion at all be blocked when it will not have any effect?
15:45 < alefury> i suppose so...
15:46 < chrisoelmueller> hm?
15:46 < chrisoelmueller> i can also read id'd ?curseFoo without having foo around
15:51 < alefury> that would be new
15:52 < Wensley> alefury: are you talking about giving a message that would indicate to the player that their metamutation has given them too many mutations in order for it to give them another mutation?
15:53 < alefury> umm, no. in my current implementation, if you drink !evo while already having two levels of evolution, the potion is consumed, nothing happens, and there is no message
15:53 < alefury> as i see it, the two options are printing "nothing appears to happen", or blocking use of the potion so it doesnt go to waste
15:54 < alefury> if the potion is unknown, the first should probably be done, without affecting id (currently all potions id when used)
15:54 < alefury> i mean, the potion should be ided anyway, but consumed, while it probably shouldnt be consumed if known while evolution 2 is already present
15:55 < alefury> ahhh confusion
15:57 <+kilobyte> alefury: found that table; not in a reasonable format though, so I ripped it as an image: http://angband.pl/tmp/D&D-crossbreeding.png
15:57 < alefury> hm, kobolds cannot mate with giants. interesting
15:57 <+kilobyte> in other words, D&D is crazy and unrealistic
15:57 < Wensley> kilobyte: is that from the d&d 3.0 sexual adventures book?
15:57 < Wensley> or I guess it was erotic adventures
15:57 <+kilobyte> kobolds not with giants is a shred of sanity, though
15:57 < ais523> the Book of Erotic Fantasy
15:58 <+kilobyte> Wensley: not sure, lemme look
15:58 < ais523> I've never read it, but it's pretty well-known in rumours
15:58 < ais523> it's considered to be among the three worst D&D splatbooks ever
15:58 <+kilobyte> appears to be that, yeah.
15:59 < Wensley> alefury: I think there are more precedents for potions that don't stop you from wasting their effects. !hw at full health and no rot, !curemut with no mutations, two !agility in a row, etc.
15:59 <+kilobyte> holy crap... browsing some rules at random... what the hell the authors of this book were thinking?
15:59 < Eronarn> it's a really bad book
15:59 < Eronarn> not just conceptually, but mechanically
16:01 <+kilobyte> ok, so looking for sane sources about demons mating with humans means D&D is out
16:01 <+kilobyte> we can always resort to the usual scientific method of rectal extraction
16:01 < Wensley> whoa, that crossbreeding chart mentions felids at the bottom. I didn't know d&d had felids
16:03 < ais523> Wensley: it has everything
16:03 <+kilobyte> they have any name that ever appeared in some work of fiction, usually without any regard to the original source
16:04 < alefury> demonic influence during pregnancy works for me. no mating of humans and demons required.
16:04 <+kilobyte> heck, I recently was digging up data about a band named "Mastiphal"
16:05 <+kilobyte> there was a Wikipedia article... just because one of hundreds of splatbooks had a demon by that name.  And it made searching hard.
16:05 <+evilmike> so after some talk in ##crawl, I've thought maybe the holy pan level should veto if you are with a good god
16:05 <+evilmike> this would prevent if from being free loot for good guys
16:05 <+kilobyte> ultimately I managed to find a real source: a lost book whose only references to are quotations by a 11th century scholar
16:06 <+kilobyte> and of course D&D had to appropriate the name, not using the old meaning
16:06 < Wensley> kilobyte: what is the issue here? trying to find precedence for demons and humans mating?
16:07 <+kilobyte> found those D&D felids.  Just the boring humanoid with Star Trekish cattish ears :(
16:08 < alefury> huh, i always thought catears were more of a japanese thing
16:08 < ais523> alefury: this indirectly lead to a whole bunch of smileys with cat ears ending up in Unicode
16:09 <+kilobyte> alefury: there's an abomination called "furry fandom", and feline features seem to be the most popular thing there
16:10 < ais523> kilobyte: oh, don't even mention that
16:10 < ais523> seriously, I've seen it tie an entire channel down for months
16:10 <+kilobyte> yeah, that's what I mean :p
16:11 < ais523> the only other subject I've seen manage that is My Little Pony
16:13 < alefury> i dont want to ever enter that channel
16:13 < alefury> my little pony and furry fandom
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16:18 <+kilobyte> evilmike: what about that idea to have the loot carried by the monsters?
16:18 <+evilmike> kilobyte: hmm, yeah, I heard that mentioned (although missed the discussion for it - no logs)
16:22 <+evilmike> that does lead to new problems though. paladin ; superb_item doesn't work as a great loot carrier since that overrides its whole inventory... need to give it armour, weapon too
16:22 <+evilmike> it's just a bit awkward
16:23 <+evilmike> another thing that could be done is just to SUBST all the loot with floor if you're with a good god, and also tag the vault with no_item_gen :P
16:25 < Wensley> could implement a pinata status effect that causes loot to fly out of the monsters when killed
16:26 < Wensley> you open the paladin like a pillowcase full of candy, as it were
16:26 <+evilmike> 4.1 has that, sorta. it's amusing
16:27 <+evilmike> stuff always seems to get scattered all over the place
16:33 <+kilobyte> NetHack and random drops: split enough puddings, and grown pieces will with enough patience drop all artefacts and oodles of any loot you wish
16:34 < Eronarn>  < Wensley> could implement a pinata status effect that causes loot to fly out of the monsters when killed
16:34 < Eronarn> meat golems
16:35 <+kilobyte> NetHack has them, and they actually make sense
16:35 < Wensley> I don't know what meat golems are in nethack but I am intrigued by the name
16:36 <+kilobyte> Wensley: the likes of Frankenstein
16:36 < Wensley> I see
16:36 <+kilobyte> ie, humanoids made of body parts, but animated by pseudoscientific means rather than necromancy
16:37 <+kilobyte> why do they give almost all intrinsics rather than food poisoning, I don't know
16:38 < G-Flex> maybe because they're made of the meat of a bunch of different creatures
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17:07 < Wensley> what is the command to grab a remote branch from a repo whose master you have locally?
17:11 < moxian> In mercurial it is named pull. I think here it's the same
17:11 < moxian> but I am no git expert
17:12 < Wensley> actually I just had to do `git checkout branch-name` and it automatically found the remote branch and downloaded for me, which was nice
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17:22 <+SamB> Wensley: you sure you didn't already have that branch fetched?
17:25 ۰۰-- moxian [~moxian@89.249.164.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:27 < Wensley> SamB: `git branch` told me I only had mster
17:27 < Wensley> *master
17:28 ۰۰-- G-Flex [swimswim@ip70-188-164-236.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Time for us to bug out.]
17:28 <+SamB> Wensley: it defaults to listing only local branches, not remote-tracking ones
17:29 < Wensley> SamB: I'm a bit confused, does that mean that it downloaded the branch but just didn't display it?
17:30 <+SamB> Wensley: try "git branch -a"
17:30 < Wensley> ah, I see
17:31 < Wensley> so when you clone the repo it downloads all the deltas for all branches in that repo, but only shows you the master by default? that's sort of weird
17:32 <+SamB> well, the remote/ ones are for tracking the state of the remote branches
17:33 <+SamB> (Also, git's model doesn't involve deltas.)
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17:50 < alefury> ahhhhhhhh. msysgit wants me to use vim to type a commit message. and my fucking keyboard doesnt even have an insert key.
17:50 < alefury> not cool.
17:50 <+|amethyst> i
17:50 <+|amethyst> or a to insert after the cursor
17:50 <+|amethyst> or I to insert at the beginning of a line
17:50 <+|amethyst> or o/O to open a new line and go into insert mode :)
17:50 < alefury> thats not the problem. i dont know how to switch to command mode
17:50 < alefury> ah
17:50 <+|amethyst> escape
17:51 <+|amethyst> to leave insert mode
17:51 < alefury> god, i hade command line editors
17:51 < alefury> how do i tell it im done?
17:51 <+|amethyst> <esc> to go back to normal mode, then  :wq<enter> to write and quit
17:52 < alefury> thanks
17:53 <+|amethyst> I suspect you can tell it to use a gui editor with the EDITOR, VISUAL, or GIT_EDITOR environment variable
17:53 <+|amethyst> not sure how you launch a Windows program and wait for it to terminate, though
17:54 < alefury> what does it mean when the line turns from yellow to white? that the line is too long?
17:54 ۰۰-- Pingas [~Pingas@40.181.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:54 < ais523> that it's longer than the standard for the first line of a commit message
17:54 < ais523> some people care about that, some people ignore it
17:55 < alefury> hmm. its not much longer, so ill just ignore it.
17:57 <+MarvinPA> 'git gui' lets you make commits without messing around with vim
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18:02 < chrisoelmueller> how is that a feature
18:02 < chrisoelmueller> :P
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18:10 <+|amethyst> Henzell: it's not on the servers yet :)
18:10 <+|amethyst> argh
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18:18 < alefury> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5082 :)
18:19 <+SamB> hmm ... I discovered something about why build-rltiles gets invoked so early ...
18:20 <+SamB> ... it's because of this rule:
18:20 <+SamB> %.d: %.cc .cflags $(GENERATED_HEADERS)
18:20 <+SamB>         @$(RM) $@
18:20 <+SamB> e
18:20 ۰۰-- Ragdoll [~Ragdoll@53518A17.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Up, up and away!]
18:21 <+SamB> as expanded to apply to any of the rltiles/tiledef-*.{d,cc} files
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18:28 < Wensley> gcc is segfaulting while attempting to build a friend's branch of crawl, does anyone know how to update msysgit? do I just need to do a clean reinstall?
18:28 < Wensley> or is a segfault in gcc indicative of something more sinister
18:28 < Wensley> he is sort of new at coding, so I would not be surprised if somehow he crafted an incantation that causes gcc to segfault
18:29 < ais523> gcc shouldn't segfault on any input
18:29 <+SamB> Wensley: take a look at what he's changed in that file and whatever headers it might include ...
18:29 <+SamB> ais523: doesn't mean it won't!
18:29 < Wensley> SamB: that's just it, the segfault is occuring in a file he touched, but in a function he didn't modify
18:30 <+SamB> Wensley: eh ?
18:30 <+SamB> GCC doesn't segfault in your functions ...
18:31 < Wensley> oh hilarious, I just tried to recreate the problem for a third time but forgot the -j2 flag and now it works
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18:32 < Wensley> is that a common thing, for gcc to segfault when using -j?
18:33 < Wensley> I'm no gcc expert myself
18:33 < ais523> -j isn't an input to gcc, but to make
18:33 < Wensley> SamB: the error was something like "segfault in member function 'virtual bool melee_attack::apply_damage_brand()', contact so-and-so with full source if necessary"
18:34 < ais523> -j typically shouldn't be used on a makefile not designed for it, though
18:34 < Wensley> maybe my friend did something that invalidates the makefile
18:34 < Wensley> he has made some pretty extensive edits
18:35 < alefury> hm, apparently i missed updating wizmode in my patch...
18:35 < alefury> &o!evolution is unknown
18:35 < alefury> &%potion of evolution works, though
18:35 <+SamB> how odd!
18:36 < alefury> i probably missed editing "str_to_potiontype" or something...
18:36 < alefury> because it doesnt contain any POT_ enum values :(
18:41 <+|amethyst> alefury:  did you change NUM_POTIONS?
18:41 < alefury> sure
18:41 < alefury> well, i added POT_EVOLUTION before it
18:41 <+|amethyst> hm
18:41 < alefury> anyway, looking through the wizmode stuff to find the problem
18:42 <+|amethyst> it eventually calls get_item_by_name
18:42 <+SamB> yeah, I was going to say that :-(
18:43 < alefury> yeah, thats how far i got too...
18:43 <+|amethyst> which searches through the subtypes of the requested type, looking for the one where the spec-string matches earliest
18:45 < alefury> oh. apparently im in the wrong crawl.
18:45 <+SamB> hahahaha
18:45 < alefury> probably everything is ifne
18:46 < alefury> bah
18:46 < CIA-54> dolorous * r8ca712c1ee0d /crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc: Fix indentation.
18:46 <+SamB> alefury: what?
18:47 < alefury> i had started the prebuilt crawl version i downloaded earlier today
18:47 < alefury> instead of the modified one i built myself
18:47 < alefury> so obviously there was no potion of evolution, and wizmode couldnt create it
18:48 < alefury> in the right version everything works just fine
18:50 < alefury> in other news, im amazed how much work it is to add a simple potion to crawl :(
18:50 < alefury> 11 files changed
18:50 < chrisoelmueller> wow
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19:43 < bmh> hi
19:44 < alefury> hail, lord of the abyss!
19:44 < bmh> muahaha?
19:44 < bmh> did I mention that the RNG is broken? :)
19:45 < bmh> In the assignment to m_lfsr the last '&' should be a '^'
19:45 < bmh> remarkably, the broken generator passes TestU01 without complaint.
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20:15 < Henzell> LuckyNed the Cudgeler (L2 OgBe)  (D:1)
20:15 <@due> !tell kilobyte Yeah, the dragon is never actually placed; extran4eous definition.
20:15 < Henzell> due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
20:15 < Henzell> due: OK, I'll let kilobyte know.
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20:18 < stsp> i found a divide-by-zero in 0.9.1
20:19 < stsp> enter game (e.g. via tutorial), quit it (ctrl-q), then go into Instruction from the main menu, and try to browse characters notes using :
20:19 < stsp> i have a patch to fix the divide-by-zero, but it still crashes in a different way
20:20 < Wensley> stsp: you can upload your patch to the mantis:
20:20 < Wensley> ??mantis
20:20 < Henzell> mantis[1/1]: The replacement for our sourceforge issue trackers, mantis can be found at http://crawl.develz.org/mantis
20:20 < stsp> i'm not sure how to fix the other crash, it looks like global state isn't reset properly, and the code ends up crashing in player_view_update_at()
20:20 < stsp> ok, will do
20:22 < stsp> here's what the other crash looks like anyway, hints appreciated: http://pastebin.com/aVXf5GVH
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21:16 < stsp> Wensley, https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5084
21:17 < Wensley> stsp: awesome, have you tested this against the most recent build of crawl?
21:18 < stsp> no, but i attached an untested patch against latest git, too
21:18 < Wensley> cool, thanks :)
21:19 < stsp> from the context of the patch it's not entirely obvious why 'current' and 'next' both end up being zero -- it's because exp_needed() returns 0 if its level argument is 1
21:22 < stsp> re the second problem: it is a bit odd that display_notes() ends up trying to draw the player -- maybe that is not supposed to happen and it could be the real problem, not sure
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21:58 < blueDave> anyone know what's up with merge of constriction?
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22:14 <+evilmike> I haven't heard anyone mention anything wrong with it, so it's probably just a matter of nagging someone to do it. Going by c-r-d and this channel, kilobyte and marvinpa might be your best bets. Maybe try nagging them with !tell and ask for a reply
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22:14 <+evilmike> that's about the most help I can offer unfortunately - if it's been talked about recently, I probably missed it, since the bot that handled logs for ##crawl-dev went down about a week ago
22:22 < Wensley> oh no, the bot went down?
22:23 < Wensley> Eronarn: do you know what the current status of constriction is?
22:24 <+evilmike> Wensley: yeah the ashenzari bot hasn't been here for a while. Hence no channel logs, and no announcements for when stuff is posted to the tracker
22:25 < Wensley> is that greensnark's domain?
22:26 <+evilmike> doy, I think
22:26 <+evilmike> also, did Eronarn have anything to do with constriction? I thought it was all blueDave
22:27 <+evilmike> as far as I know it's done and just waiting to be merged
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22:28 < Wensley> I just assumed that eronarn would be following any octopode-related developments
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23:03 < blueDave> yes, the basic constriction framework is done at least.  I have been continuing to tweak and improve the interface a bit.
23:04  * SamB tries to figure out how to make all the things in art-data.txt sound reasonable with a "the" in front
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23:24 < CIA-54> SamB * r003f65b5a3bf /crawl-ref/source/art-data.txt: Rename a few artefacts to accomodate the "the " prefix.
23:24 < CIA-54> SamB * r1b0586918288 /crawl-ref/source/Makefile: Makefile: Simplify art-data rules.
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23:46 < HangedMan> food.cc says that royal jellies are 5k nutrition, so how can 4 or 6 produce an average of 20k nutrition?
23:47 <+SamB> HangedMan: if the "6" option always gets vetoed/never happens ?
23:48 < HangedMan> "(min 16k)" makes me doubt that
23:50 <+SamB> is it in the comments or the code that food.cc says this?
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23:53 < HangedMan> comments in dat/des/builder/food.des saying this, kilobyte's nutritional averages for said vaults
23:53 < HangedMan> maybe I need to read over food.cc again
23:58 <@due> I don't think nutrition is a straight gain, no?
--- Log closed Sun Dec 18 00:00:08 2011