--- Log opened Sun Dec 11 00:00:58 2011
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01:03 < Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2670-g8712ab0 (32)
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01:18 < Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2670-g8712ab0
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01:53 < Gretell> okagachi (L3 HuFi)  (D:2)
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02:25 < CIA-54> dolorous * r059ad17825d5 /crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Make the Serpent of Hell drop the appropriate corpse type for its flavour.
02:28 < CIA-54> elliptic * r66fc04c8f1a2 /crawl-ref/source/itemprop.cc: Slightly unbuff halberds and glaives.
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04:02 < CIA-54> |amethyst * r2ede7d6875be /crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Prompt about chopping drainable, not just bottleable, corpses
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06:00 < Gretell> OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2673-g2ede7d6
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06:23 <+kilobyte> !tell SamB http://www.codeproject.com/KB/threads/StackWalker.aspx
06:23 < Henzell> kilobyte: OK, I'll let SamB know.
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06:58 < alefury> it seems like the mana cost of sublimation is paid after the mana gain
06:58 < alefury> so you can never get to 100% full MP with it
06:59 < alefury> is that intentional?
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07:29 < syllogism> http://i.imgur.com/rBEBt.jpg
07:33 < alefury> ?
07:35 < syllogism> staff of foo extra damage doesn't wake up monsters
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07:43 < alefury> mantis?
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10:31 < Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2673-g2ede7d6 (32)
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12:47 < Henzell> minmay the Fetichist (L20 MuCK) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 2459 failed on turn 95597. (Shoals:1)
12:48 <+elliptic> !lm minmay crash -log
12:48 < Sequell> 71. minmay, XL20 MuCK, T:95597 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/minmay/crash-minmay-20111211-174723.txt
12:49 <+|amethyst> actually at http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/minmay/crash-minmay-20111211-174723.txt
12:49 <+elliptic> yes
12:49 <+|amethyst> err
12:49 <+|amethyst> 22
12:49 <+elliptic> interesting, an smc crash that didn't involve melee?
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12:50 <+|amethyst> tentacle segments
12:50 <+elliptic> ah, is that it
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12:51 < CIA-54> kilobyte * r928730edd1fc /crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Allow hostiles behind glass at the game start.
12:51 < CIA-54> kilobyte * r00c8f8cc5f9a /crawl-ref/source/test/monster-name.lua: Unbreak the testsuite.
12:51 < CIA-54> kilobyte * rc59473b89093 /crawl-ref/source/dat/des/entry/twisted.des: An entry vault by nicolae: a kraken feeding on the likes of you.
12:51 < CIA-54> kilobyte * re1e8809eb886 /crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h los.cc los.h losglobal.h losparam.cc): Fix mimic opacity for different LOS models.
12:51 < CIA-54> kilobyte * r7c326d46f50c /crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): Whitespace fixes.
12:51 < CIA-54> kilobyte * r04b6e9d36908 /crawl-ref/source/dat/des/altar/overflow.des: Remove door warnings from xom_monty_hall, comment why they don't work.
12:51 < CIA-54> kilobyte * r4c9ca6325d85 /crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Don't apply effects of most brands if the enemy died before.
12:51 < CIA-54> kilobyte * rd09b4f16275a /crawl-ref/source/ (14 files): Disambiguate the LOS_SOLID confusion.
12:52 <+|amethyst> kilobyte:  what's the justification for useless vorpalisation only IDing if you know curse weapon?
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12:55 <+kilobyte> |amethyst: the rationale for making vorpalization auto-id was that once you know curse weapon, you can just wield something harmless while testing scrolls
12:56 <+elliptic> kilobyte: IMO it should just auto-ID all the time
12:57 <+elliptic> like, it doesn't make much sense that you would be able to feel the vorpalisation attempt only if you've identified curse weapon
12:57 < Eronarn> "You read the scroll of vorpalize weapon. Nothing happens. You feel dull."
12:57 < Henzell> Eronarn: You have 42 messages. Use !messages to read them.
12:57 < syllogism> really, 42
12:59 < alefury> i asked this earlier today, but got no response then: is it intentional that the mp cost for sublimation is paid after the mp restore effect?
13:00 < alefury> it doesnt make sense imo, why would the effect happen before paying the mp cost?
13:01 <+elliptic> alefury: hm, yes, that is weird
13:01 <+elliptic> I never thought about it carefully but I can't think of any justification
13:03 <+SamB> kilobyte: you do know that dbghelp.dll doesn't understand DWARF *or* COFF symbols, right?
13:03 < Henzell> SamB: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
13:03 <+SamB> !messages
13:03 < Henzell> (1/1) kilobyte said (6h 39m 49s ago): http://www.codeproject.com/KB/threads/StackWalker.aspx
13:04 < alefury> oh, also, according to syllogism (who seems to be too lazy for mantis) staff of foo damage doesnt wake up sleeping monsters
13:04 < alefury> probably any attack should wake up monsters, even if it doesnt do any damage
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13:06 <+elliptic> yeah
13:07 <+elliptic> I'm guessing that a 0-damage stab doesn't wake up sleeping monsters in general
13:07 <+elliptic> which is bad
13:07 < alefury> yeah, but with staves you can actually do damage with those 0 damage attacks
13:07 < alefury> which is double bad
13:08 <+elliptic> right
13:08 < Eronarn> i don't think sublimation used to work like that, did it?
13:09 <+elliptic> no, it did
13:09 < alefury> i think it has been like that for a long time
13:09 <+elliptic> you could never get up to max MP with it, just max MP - 2
13:09 <+elliptic> but I'm not sure why
13:10 <+elliptic> I haven't looked at the code, but I'm guessing that it just works this way because it was easier to code
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13:42 <+SamB> probably just rounding error ...
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14:31 < alefury> new autofight is much better :)
14:40 < alefury> also, colorful zot in tiles is nice
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16:18 <+SamB> this is kind of funky ... get_last_messages() is writing characters to the screen (indirectly)!
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18:03 < alefury> why arent books identified on pickup?
18:03 < alefury> or even on stepping on them?
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18:05 < alefury> hm, also, trying to memorize from an unidentified book on the floor doesnt id it
18:07 <+evilmike> yeah you need to pick them up for some reason
18:07 <+evilmike> I remember someone giving a justification for that, but I also remember it being a bit flimsy
18:08 <+evilmike> oh yeah, it was because of trog... you get extra piety for burning unread books
18:09 <+SamB> that's pretty darn flimsy
18:11 <+evilmike> there might be other reasons, can't think of any though
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18:21 <+elliptic> the main reason I can think of to make books only identify when you try to read them is that otherwise finding the new book you just picked up could be annoying
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18:22 <+elliptic> like, you are worshipping sif, have 5 randart books in inventory, sif gifts one more... and how do you know which one it was? have to carefully compare names, which aren't that easy to distinguish for most randart books
18:23 < alefury> umm, easy: actually identify during pickup
18:23 <+elliptic> alefury: huh?
18:23 < alefury> here: a black book
18:23 < alefury> you pick up a book of minor magic
18:23 <+elliptic> the point is that you have to go look in the book to see what spells are in it
18:23 <+elliptic> randarts
18:23 < alefury> displaying the identified name on pickup solves the finding problem
18:23 <+elliptic> no it doesn't
18:24 < alefury> then i dont know what you mean
18:24 <+elliptic> I just explained this... "have to carefully compare names, which aren't that easy to distinguish for most randart books"
18:24 <+elliptic> if you have a half-dozen "sif's handbook of <fire-related terms>", it is annoying to find the one you want
18:24 <+evilmike> maybe just exempt randbooks?
18:25 < alefury> oh wow. are you serious? youre really saying finding "a graven book" is much easier than finding "lord voldermorts incantabulum of flight"?
18:25 < alefury> how many books do you usually carry around with you?
18:25 <+elliptic> alefury: uh, yes
18:25 <+evilmike> id-ing a randbook upon pickup would do nothing anyway, since it would only give a vague idea of what kinds of spells it has
18:25 <+elliptic> because when you go to your inventory to look at the book to see what spells are in it, you just pick the one unIDed book and read it
18:25 <+elliptic> easy
18:25 < alefury> i think its only an issue with 3+ books
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18:25 < alefury> ie rarely
18:26 <+elliptic> I also don't see any advantage to making books auto-ID like this, since you have to read them to see what spells are in them anyway
18:26 < alefury> and pressing M every time I pick up a book is annoying
18:26 <+elliptic> like, what's the point?
18:26 <+elliptic> you have to press something anyway
18:26 <+evilmike> I think its mainly for duplicate books
18:26 <+evilmike> like, you already found minor magic, and if it identifies when you step on it, then there's no need to pick it up
18:26 <+elliptic> evilmike: except amnesia
18:28 < HangedMan> trove asking for a book and you haven't readied the spells you want from it yet from your first copy?
18:28 < HangedMan> or do troves only ask for books from shops or something
18:28 <+elliptic> evilmike: are you suggesting that it identify with a message when you step on top of it?
18:28 <+elliptic> HangedMan: yes
18:28 < HangedMan> oh, pff
18:28 <+evilmike> elliptic: yeah
18:28 <+elliptic> seems strange... nothing else behaves like that
18:29 <+evilmike> maybe it's just me, but I find in the lategame I usually read most books and then just drop them (often hunting for one spell, like haste)
18:29 < alefury> elliptic: maybe print out the spell list on pickup? maybe only for randbooks?
18:29 <+evilmike> and yeah that would be strange. alefury suggested it
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18:30 <+evilmike> myself, I'd prefer for non-randart books to just id like normal items do, but that seems like something that won't happen
18:31 < alefury> how do normal items id?
18:31 <+elliptic> evilmike: that would be good, yes
18:31 <+elliptic> alefury: as in, when you've found one book of minor magic, all later ones come identified
18:32 <+elliptic> or at least I assume that's the idea... it has been discussed a little in the past
18:32 <+evilmike> I remember it getting shot down last time it came up
18:33 < alefury> oh, that. it would certainly be nifty. why did it get shot down?
18:33 < alefury> "it works like that for everything else" is a pretty strong argument
18:33 < alefury> all the same reasons apply
18:34 <+elliptic> I don't remember the counterarguments, yeah
18:35 <+evilmike> I can't exactly remember them, but I think there were two main ones. One was something to do with encouraging players to enter loot vaults, or something along those lines
18:35 <+evilmike> and another was a (very bad, imo) reason that you have to open a book to know what's in it
18:35 < alefury> both of those reasons are pretty horrible imo
18:35 <+elliptic> encouraging players to enter loot vaults sounds pretty dubious to me
18:35 <+evilmike> as in, it was a "realism" justification. I think the first consideration is the only serious one
18:36 <+evilmike> elliptic: yeah, especially since randbooks exist
18:36 < alefury> tell me then: how is it different for any other item?
18:36 <+elliptic> the realism one does make some sense but it doesn't seem that compelling
18:36 < alefury> the same argument can be used against regular item identification
18:36 <+evilmike> we can just say that non randbooks are mass produced
18:36 <+elliptic> yes
18:36 <+evilmike> if that's an anachronism, then we can say a wizard did it
18:37 <+elliptic> I'm sure it can be explained, yes
18:37 < alefury> how about this: the title is on the cover
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18:37 <+elliptic> alefury: well, then there are questions like why all books don't come identified
18:38 <+elliptic> since if you can read the title from a distance, then you can read the title from a distance... shouldn't matter whether you have read the same title previously
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18:38 <+elliptic> I'd rate "it works like this for everything else" above any realism counterargument, anyway
18:38 < alefury> there is also this question: if all rings/potions/etc of foo look the same, why didnt the adventurer buy a handy little guide to rings/potions/etc and have everything identified from the start?
18:39 < alefury> identification in crawl doesnt make a lot of sense in general
18:39 < HangedMan> antique stores would not be able to trick adventurers nearly as often, so they've banned that sort of guide
18:39 <+evilmike> the books don't have titles written on them, they just happen to all have the same binding
18:39 <+evilmike> because of wizard OCD or something
18:40 < alefury> maybe the title is in sanskrit
18:40 < alefury> and you have to find out what title corresponds to what book because you cant read it
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18:40 < alefury> s/sanskrit/magic runes/
18:40 <+elliptic> alefury: sure, that would work
18:43 < alefury> pan is a lot nicer now in tiles
18:43 < alefury> more pan lord variety, nicer walls, i think it has proper wall colors in unique pan lord levels. also more vaults.
18:44 < alefury> <3 0.10
18:45 < alefury> oh, also much nicer floor :)
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18:59 <+evilmike> the walls and floor are more like console now with it being random, yeah
18:59 <+evilmike> in 0.9 it just got the crypt floor and a small selection of zot walls
19:00 < HangedMan> also cigovuti wizlab walls
19:02 < alefury> yeah, those are still in, too
19:02 < alefury> which is fine, variety is good :)
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19:28 <+SamB> alefury: I think they just have no externally-visible titles
19:28 <+SamB> only some fancy leathertooling
19:29 < alefury> good night
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19:45 < CIA-54> edlothiol * rdba066dcd542 /crawl-ref/source/ (command.cc spl-book.cc spl-cast.cc): Webtiles: Show tiles in spell menus.
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23:03 < CIA-54> dolorous * r97c969f11d4d /crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Fix sometimes-missing message when a scroll of vorpalise weapon fails.
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--- Log closed Mon Dec 12 00:00:00 2011