00:03:14 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2521-gd0f13c5 (32) 00:18:58 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2521-gd0f13c5 00:28:22 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 00:35:53 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 00:44:43 -!- lorimer has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:49:26 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 01:06:16 Xom opening/closing doors messes up LoS. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5008) by elliptic 01:09:00 fr xom messes up los oh wait 02:18:30 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:49:51 -!- Lohen has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:49:53 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 03:00:24 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 03:28:56 -!- Lohen has joined ##crawl-dev 03:29:08 -!- Vandal has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:42:13 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:54:06 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:59:54 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 04:02:50 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:07:08 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 04:09:40 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:12:28 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:38:30 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:05:17 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:16:36 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 05:19:04 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:31:01 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 05:34:27 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 05:39:43 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:43:41 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:44:11 -!- absolutego has joined ##crawl-dev 05:49:43 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 05:56:26 xomscumming (L1 MuCK) ASSERT(feat < NUM_FEATURES) in 'feature.cc' at line 24 failed. (Abyss (Sprint)) 06:05:40 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:06:41 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:06:48 -!- ais523 has quit [Changing host] 06:06:48 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:26:03 the artifact consumable thread on the tavern made me think 06:26:06 potion of evolution could be nice (as a regular rare potion) 06:26:19 it would simply give you the evolution mutation 06:27:34 usually more mutations than a potion of mutation, but skewed towards good, and delayed 06:27:34 would there ever be any point in having more than one? 06:27:34 evolution disappears after a while 06:27:34 hmm, in that case, I suspect the best use for the potion would be to drink it in Temple and hammer 5 for a while 06:27:34 well, its still likely to screw you over 06:28:05 because bad mutations can be very bad, and good mutation effects are often only situationally useful 06:28:27 which means they just mean you mostly need to switch jewelry less often 06:28:38 yep, but it's safer than getting a very bad mutation during conduct 06:28:42 *during combar 06:28:47 **during combat 06:28:55 well, evolution has safeguards against that 06:29:18 mutations get more likely as you gain exp 06:29:43 and there are no mutations if you just wait 06:30:27 (it only has a chance to disappear when it mutates you) 06:31:08 maybe it could even replace the potion of mutation 06:31:44 hmm, I was playing Dungeons of Dredmor recently, and its solution to the keeping-buffs-up-all-the-time solution is really nice 06:32:24 i tried playing dungeons of dredmore recently, but i randomly chose the vampirism skill and couldnt get chars off the ground, plus lack of autopickup, autoexplore and autofight pissed me off 06:32:24 aggressive buffs wear off after you make a certain number of hits that they affect; defensive buffs wear off after you're hit a certain number of times with things that they defend against 06:33:33 it does have autopickup, you can turn it on in the options; I agree that its controls are generally awful, though 06:33:33 you can also turn on collide-to-attack, I'm not sure why anyone ever thought leaving /that/ off by default was a good idae 06:33:33 *idea 06:33:33 hmkay, maybe ill take another look 06:33:33 my first impression was "id rather play crawl" 06:33:33 the controls are still awful even if you configure them correctly 06:33:59 it has some nice ideas, though, and it's quite reminiscent of Crawl in several ways; the major difference (and it's a very big one) seems to be that it's deliberately designed to encourage rather than discourage grinding 06:34:13 thats fucking stupid 06:34:18 no, just different 06:34:21 some people like grindy games 06:34:31 some people are fucking stupid 06:34:39 although i must admit i sometimes do like grindy games 06:35:41 i just think its stupid in a roguelike context 06:36:23 it makes sense if the action you repeat over and over is fun 06:36:47 it also has questionable balance decisions (in particular, one of the skill trees eventually gives unlimited cblink for no penalty but a timeout; it's generally regarded as the best one there) 06:37:10 i couldn't begin playing it 06:37:17 whereas a character I played just for messing about has no tele/blink sources and is struggling as a result (I had to burn three stony wands to survive a zoo at one point) 06:37:24 the first thing i look at is the interface and it seems undesirable 06:37:29 it is 06:37:44 mikee_: the interface is awful 06:37:52 orders of magnitude below vanilla NetHack, somehow 06:38:01 that's quite a feat 06:38:15 it can be configured to make it less awful, but it still stays awful 06:40:17 OTOH, some parts of a game being bad doesn't mean that other parts can't be good; there are some genuinely good ideas there 06:40:17 i guess this is often what happens 06:40:17 interface, at least, is easily fixable, although not so much in a closed-source game 06:40:21 (just compare AceHack with NetHack; I think AceHack's up there with Crawl, nowadays, and even beating it in several aspects which you'd never agree with me on) 06:40:43 i will use doomrl for my comparison 06:40:44 like giving players eye cancer 06:41:09 BlastHardcheese: I added the floorcolor option if you'd really prefer your view to be bland over being informative 06:41:22 it seems to be split around 50/50, so it's a good thing for an option 06:41:57 i think taking away health regen could be a stroke of genius for certain roguelikes 06:42:08 whose names rhyme with brawl 06:42:31 i think its way too late for that 06:42:45 yes it is not like anyone is going to start an implementable for it =P 06:42:50 mikee_: it's something I noticed in Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: "why is regular grindy combat so much more interesting than Crawl's? oh, it's because health regens slower than monsters spawn" 06:42:51 it might have made sense for, say, dcss 0.1 06:42:57 but it would surprisingly solve quite a few problems 06:43:16 healing is a nobrainer 06:43:17 whereas in Crawl you can't increase the spawn rate because then people would just grind 06:43:19 there is the anti-grinding aspect of course 06:43:30 and also the simple benefit of games not taking as long 06:43:44 something I've noticed is mostly unique to Crawl is the way that monster spawns work 06:43:49 but also there would no longer be trivial enemies 06:43:57 in Crawl, most of the monsters are already there on the map when oyu enter the level 06:44:02 mikee_: I made a wiki page for that... it is very long away, perhaps forever 06:44:12 yeah that is what i am thinking :| 06:44:27 i think the place for something like that is a fork 06:44:28 and you can clear a level out, and then spawns don't come quickly at all, until you hit the vastly out of depth mummy hunting squad 06:44:43 in most other roguelikes I know, a level is basically empty when you enter it, and monsters spawn over time 06:44:51 meaning that behind you is almost as dangerous as in front of you 06:45:43 the player mostly doesn't notice, but using a monster-detection ability in, say, NetHack or Pokémon Mystery Dungeon as soon as you enter the level, you'll see only one or two monsters in most cases 06:46:53 mikee_: it can be done... the choices might not even be worse than the one between round and square LOS. It does not a lot of thought before and testing after. Perhaps the idea will get some support. 06:47:33 what would the major way to regain health be, if not time? exploration? 06:47:44 dpeg, perhaps some of the people i persuaded to try doomrl will have feedback on how it's handled there 06:48:03 considering that we had like half of the dcss devteam in ##doomrl =P 06:48:06 mikee_: even doomrl plays with alternate ways to heal 06:48:06 doomrl effectively has health for exploration, by leaving common health pickups lying around 06:48:25 kilobyte, you mean health globes and such sources? or vampire 06:48:48 yeah i would think the drop rates of healing sources would have to be increased in dcss 06:48:55 or everyone will just play necromancer of makhleb 06:49:13 desktop dungeons has a beautifully simple "1 hp per square viewed" 06:49:23 AoImpatience (no stashing healing), AoMasochism (no healing except on level-up) 06:49:48 it'd possibly be too fast for Crawl, but has a number of positive effects (especially what'd happen to pillar dancing) 06:49:50 those are just challenge games with more difficult means to heal 06:49:54 ais523: for kills, for exploration, items, there are options 06:50:00 the wiki page compares some of them 06:50:19 but if your point is that even those challenges are doable, i agree 06:51:06 ais523: the DD approach has problems on its own (if you can re-visit levels) 06:51:07 dpeg: indeed 06:51:24 I still don't get why you can revisit levels in Crawl, it doesn't seem to help anything but make the game structure seem more logical 06:51:36 in DD, unexplored dungeon squares are an actual resource 06:51:42 one of the most important ones actually 06:51:42 yep 06:51:57 I'm kind of thinking of combining a good deal of recent ideas and trying a madly experimental race. 06:51:57 they're /the/ most important resource; second is undefeated monsters 06:52:02 exploring means paying for information, in a way 06:52:03 crawl's gameplay involves a lot of backtracking 06:52:11 exploring at full health and mana i mean 06:52:13 mikee_: and I don't see why that's a good thing either? 06:52:18 backtracking isn't interesting in Crawl 06:52:25 well i wouldn't say it is good but not having it may be bad 06:52:36 what would happen with shaft traps for example? 06:52:45 or avoiding most of d:2 because sigmund scared you off 06:53:13 i still think the right place for such a change would be a fork 06:53:30 mikee_: Pokémon Mystery Dungeon has shaft traps, they're one of the utterly scariest things there 06:53:35 i could suggest it for mcrawl 06:53:54 even if most of the active devteam joined the "new project", it would still be better than releasing it simply as a new dcss version 06:53:56 especially if they're hit by a party member other than the leader, as it eliminates them from the game entirely, with (in many dungeons) no way to replace them 06:54:02 that sounds harsh 06:54:13 (hitting one with the leader just forces you to the next level with no way to backtrack it) 06:54:14 i imagine people feel cheated when they hit one 06:54:25 not really, the game is full of freakishly deadly things 06:54:42 so wait, pokemon mystery dungeon is actually good? 06:54:50 it is, eventually 06:54:52 from what i am hearing maybe not =P 06:55:00 the game starts off far too easy, and stays that way until quite a bit after the final boss 06:55:08 but some of the postgame content is excellent 06:55:33 what i meant is, "a person who likes regular roguelikes can play these games for a while" 06:55:49 backtracking makes for more choices, not just for more boredom 06:56:02 djinn: no boots, demonic but neutral TSO-wise (like angels are good demons), no hunger, no mutations on yellow glow, hunger costs cause glow, immune to fire, X* cold damage, rF- rC+ (not an error -- items/etc), no MP (casting from hp), MP boosts heal HP, MP drain acts like antimagic on monsters, auto-lev+slow over water/lava 06:56:25 a typical Crawl solution would be to make this finite (like we did with Amnesia): "ticket to go upwards" 06:56:25 having the option of backtracking also makes some things trivial 06:56:25 cf the rune lock discussion 06:56:41 alefury: get someone else to complete the game for you and unlock a bunch of characters; then go to Zero Island South and play that yourself 06:56:55 and when leaving things for later becomes a nobrainer, that is not good 06:57:03 kilobyte: interesting 06:57:25 hm, im sure there are savegames around somewhere 06:57:28 it's independent from the rest of the game, apart from which Pokémon you play it with (you have to unlock the Pokémon in the main game, but you get a generic version of the Pokémon you use, with the same stats no matter what the main game's Pokémon's stats are) 06:57:52 do these games have all the pokemon? 06:57:55 alefury: there is less and less space for that. Being able/forced to decide between "fight now" and "skip" is good, in my opinion. 06:58:41 i like portal vaults, branch ends not so much 06:58:47 alefury: PMD2, the one I'd recommend (that is, Time/Darkness/Sky), has all the Pokémon implemented; all but 9 are available in-game, and all but 1 are available if you use cheat codes to get 8 of them 06:59:03 the last one was a limited-time offer sort of thing over wi-fi to try to persuade people to buy the game early 06:59:16 alefury, it's not a 'no brainer' though because there is a specific choice involved 06:59:24 (that is, intended cheat codes that are on Nintendo's website somewhere; it's all an event-pokémon sort of thing) 06:59:37 well, which version of "all" pokemon are you referring to? up to dpp? up to rse? gsc? rby? 06:59:38 actually, I think it might be more than 9, there are some Pokémon you can only find in the bonus dungeons 06:59:42 one does actually accept a cost when postponing a branch end for example 06:59:47 alefury: dpp in PMD2; rse in PMD1 06:59:56 wow, thats a lot of pokemon 07:00:00 yep, indeed 07:00:35 I imagine the game's balance would freak Crawl devs out for a while; pretty much every item in existence is overpowered by Crawl standards, but the game's all about consumables so it makes sense 07:00:54 if you find a really overpowered consumable, the reaction's "I hope I don't have to use this, but I know I will at some point" 07:02:01 overpowered consumables are fun, overpowered permanent items not so much (look at dota for example, not sure how bad it is in other moba/aos) 07:02:01 a better known example might be diablo 2 07:02:01 there are a few overpowered permanent items, but they're the rewards for the bonus dungeons, and (in the case of zero island south/east) can't be taken into them, only out of them 07:02:06 yes, consumables are much harder to unbalance than spells or other permanent thingies 07:02:19 zero island north is where you get to play with your overpowered permanent items; I'm glad they put something like that in 07:02:21 dpeg: i like the idea of artifact consumables 07:02:22 kilobyte: if you don't have time to implement it, please add your species to the wiki! 07:02:22 it's fun to play once or twice 07:02:34 alefury: I've not yet seen a worthwhile proposal, tbh. 07:02:46 (also the only zero island branch I've ever completed, and that was with a level 90 team and a bag entirely full of reviver seeds) 07:02:56 mhh, im writing a post in the thread, but im not sure its worthwhile, and its certainly not a full proposal 07:02:58 i don't get the idea of artifact consumables very well 07:03:17 how are they really artifact if you can use them up? 07:03:20 dpeg: it's merely a brainstorming stage yet 07:03:36 reviver seed = best item in PMD2; it fully resets all the character's reducing-over-time stats (nutrition, hp, pp, status), and triggers automatically from the bag if the character would die 07:04:08 and they give an interesting choice (use them as a sort of meta-HP bar, or trigger them deliberately to heal problems in many stats all at once) 07:04:12 mikee_: making certain consumables indestructable by ice/fire came up before 07:04:19 in the case of wands, no recharging would be interesting 07:04:36 for example, some of Eronarn's ideas in lava orcs are good but way too gameable (bonuses from boosting tension, leading monsters to lava, etc) 07:04:36 kilobyte: sure, but has potential, in my opinion 07:04:45 agree 07:05:08 dpeg: that's why I brought the idea up... it's way too vague for an implementation right now though 07:05:23 that's why I said wiki not Mantis .) 07:05:25 i will await further ideas i guess 07:05:42 but yeah simply indestructible potions and unrechargable wands don't interest me yet 07:06:23 I dislike Disney djinns, Islamic are better, yet I'd pick something still different 07:06:52 D&D djinns? not sure how close they are to islamic and disney 07:08:05 one of books I've read as a kid had djinns being made up of magic smoke, but somehow capable of producing viable offspring with humans -- so most real characters were half-djinns 07:08:05 theyre air themed and some can grant whishes, i dont really know much about them :( 07:08:05 I've read that too long ago to remember the author though :( 07:08:05 !seen elliptic 07:08:05 I last saw elliptic at Mon Dec 5 08:07:27 2011 UTC (5h 21s ago) saying (also I dont think it works) on ##crawl. 07:08:05 that sounds like an awful book 07:08:05 especially for a kid :P 07:08:05 Islamic djinni are "made of smokeless fire" 07:08:11 ohhhh, nice! 07:08:26 so theyre smart fire elementals? 07:08:36 (instead of smart air elementals) 07:08:45 alefury: no stress on reproduction, and I'm not speaking of kid drivel style books, just regular fantasy :p 07:09:19 could even have real legs 07:09:40 alefury: here's D&D djinn: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm 07:09:42 the version I listed above doesn't have them, so they have to clumsily levitate in some places 07:09:56 which is the only way to cross water, even shallow 07:10:00 i suppose half-djinns are better than half-dragons 07:10:27 it would make sense if theyre fire themed 07:10:33 or even air themed 07:10:46 cant put airfeet in water 07:10:56 back (much) later 07:11:01 dpeg: bye! 07:11:05 and unstable ground might make levitating hard, depending on how it works 07:11:07 the D&D version seems air-themed but with some firiness too (such as the ability to speak fire-elemental-language) 07:11:25 i only know d&d from playing the baldurs gate games 07:12:02 which i love oh so very much 07:12:10 aha, it's djinn who are mostly air-themed, and efreet who are mostly fire-themed 07:12:19 yeah, and they dont like each other iirc 07:12:23 ais523: in D&D, that is 07:12:25 not really anyway 07:12:39 kilobyte: I'm talking about the D&D version, because someone asked 07:12:49 presumably so that Crawl can arbitrarily do the opposite 07:14:00 so it is going to be earth themed 07:14:01 water is also possible! 07:14:01 ice genie :) 07:14:01 in D&D, ice is a secondary element, air+water 07:14:01 ais523: :p 07:14:01 not that that makes a whole lot of sense 07:14:06 yeah 07:14:30 ice is cold water - air is often cold, and water is water 07:14:35 i have deciphered the formula 07:14:38 Islamic efreeti are regular djinni who are evil 07:14:53 kilobyte: i think your proposal could be cool as a very experimental race, but i have no idea how well it would actually work ingame 07:15:05 it has so much stuff, its hard to think through 07:15:10 maybe elaborate? 07:15:24 while djinni have fully free will, equally capable of evil, good or neutral acts 07:15:46 alefury: food is probably the most risky thing 07:16:03 i dont know how bad mutationless glow as a cost actually is 07:16:32 could cause miscast effects instead of mutating, with severity depending on glow level 07:16:42 if regular explosions arent harsh enough 07:16:46 the version I said has no mutations only on yellow -- but it may indeed be good to not have any whatsoever 07:16:49 ie, ghouls 07:16:59 well, if theyre demonic they cant mutate, right? 07:17:15 demons are all about mutations 07:17:28 i imagine demons as the opposite 07:17:33 perfect form 07:17:52 theme-wise you have no two 100% identical demons, humans with a drop of demonic blood (demonspawn) get tens of mutations, etc 07:17:53 ageless, and if they die they fade away instead of rotting 07:18:28 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 07:19:39 i always imagine demons to come into being fully mature, and not age, and hardly capable of changing their views or even learning 07:19:54 i might be completely alone in this, though 07:20:07 oh heh, it's "djinni" that's singular, "djinn" plural. 07:20:14 now that's surprising 07:20:21 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 07:20:46 hey, disney did it right 07:22:04 i view demonspawn mutations as the demon blood trying to bring you closer to your intended form 07:22:13 not randomly mutating you 07:22:50 using the fully anglicized version, "genie", is an option, but then, there are Grey Elves blocking the abbreviation 07:23:00 GE vs Ge 07:23:07 i like Dj though :) 07:23:17 add some to pan disco hall 07:23:20 or well, one 07:23:57 alefury: can't disagree with "which fiction is right" -- there's as many interpretations of demons as there are books 07:24:34 i dont think i have read a lot of books with demons, i know them mostly from games really 07:24:53 and usually there is little background 07:24:59 alefury: don't forget religions 07:25:18 i dont really know much about religions either 07:25:29 There are some interesting demons in the Malazan Book of the Fallen iirc. 07:25:38 i did read some of the bible, but not many of the parts with demons 07:26:03 it's mostly christian medieval tradition that has them 07:26:20 they had to make money somehow :) 07:26:29 somehow, the church tries to hide that it ever happened :p 07:27:42 many of the things in crawl agree with my view of demons. mainly the fixed hierarchy. 07:27:54 but really most of the stuff works 07:28:48 my mom studied theology (fortunately, after getting a real degree first) and has 967349867346 related books. I recently browsed those books looking for Christian angelic hierarchy, etc. Not a single word. 07:30:24 nice 07:30:53 apparently, if they were digital you could just grep them for "eyes"... 07:31:16 all dead trees, sadly 07:33:23 it's astounding how big parts of the Bible are totally dismissed by the church 07:35:11 and actually some make really good read... like, Solomon's or David's reign 07:35:41 the politics there are anything but honest or benevolent :) 07:37:46 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 07:37:54 hm, were those really official parts of the bible at some point? 07:38:01 no one bothers paraphrasing these stories into modern language so they're tiresome to read usually... but try the Brick Testament 07:38:02 or just related historic records? 07:38:20 alefury: uhm, that's most of the Old Testament 07:38:27 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 07:38:49 is the christian old testament actually the same as the jewish torah or are there differences? 07:39:01 although even the very last NT book, the Apocalypse, has a bounty of Ezekiel-like myths too 07:39:43 Morning 07:39:50 no denomination agrees on which books are canon 07:40:03 alefury, there are some books in the old testament that are not in the Torah, but that's the same across different denominations, yes. 07:40:08 But more or less, they are the same. 07:40:09 right, of course 07:40:25 Torah = Pentateuch, the first five books; Judaism considers a lot of the rest canonical too but just not as important 07:40:41 actually i didnt even know there were multiple denominations of judaism 07:42:37 I guess you could call them denominations, though I've never heard jews refer to one another as what "denomination" they're part of 07:43:10 Typically they're just referred to as a specific type of jew, and when asking tend to phrase it as such; "Are you reform, or orthadox" etc. 07:44:03 well, with the long tradition of judaism and them being forcibly spread across most of the globe it only makes sense that there are multiple denominations 07:44:37 some like Kharaites or Samaritans are even questioned whether they count as Jewish or not (the former usually does, the latter usually does not) 07:46:04 -!- dtsund has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:46:05 i like how "samaritan" is used as a metaphor for "helpful person" nowadays, when iirc in the bible it was used to evoke a "real asshole" stereotype 07:46:18 in the good samaritan story 07:46:33 language is funny 07:47:09 a different tribe, through most of the history this always implied "real asshole" :p 07:51:14 Well, that's why it was so special the Samaritan helped 07:51:21 that's kinda the point of the parable 07:51:33 yeah i know, but its not used that way nowadays in everyday language 07:52:35 well, not like i hear the word used every day, but someone said it recently and meant "really helpful person" and i thought "heh, funny" 07:52:40 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 07:56:40 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:57:38 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:58:08 -!- mikee_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:07:00 anyway, potions of evolution? 08:07:11 i think they would make a good replacement for !mut 08:07:28 !mut sucks in many ways 08:08:18 ill write something on the wiki if i can find an appropriate page 08:10:03 alefury: what are they? positivt !mut? 08:10:33 just add the evolution mutation on drinking 08:10:49 hmm 08:10:54 which means a whole bunch of delayed muts, weighted towards positive 08:11:28 50/50 random/positive, not sure how many mutations on average 08:12:04 mutation is extremely likely to screw you over, this would only have a very significant risk of screwing you over, with significant payoff 08:12:11 also the delayed effect makes it harder to scum 08:12:20 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 08:12:46 ah 08:12:59 I like it! 08:13:23 also you cant opt out of it once you get a set you like 08:13:53 (although you can currently put on an amulet of rMut to make evolution go away much much faster) 08:14:53 some tweaks would probably be needed (spawn rate, distillation, and maybe some tweaks to evolution), but i think it could be a nice improvement 08:14:54 oh wtf... it almost never goes away unless you wear rMut 08:15:06 well, it has a chance to randomly kill itself 08:15:28 which i think turns out to be about 10% too if you have a lot of mutations 08:15:49 might be 1/15, but i havent really thought about it 08:16:05 actually it might always be 1/15 08:17:53 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 08:18:45 hm, ill just tack on a paragraph to the mutations wiki page 08:18:58 cant find a better place for it and dont want to make a new page 08:19:09 03kilobyte * rce399143efa4 10/crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: Fix reversed logic for rMut and Evolution. 08:19:55 oh, that makes sense 08:20:44 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 08:23:38 may go away way too fast now, though 08:25:18 well, still probably about 7 mutations or so on average 08:25:44 (this is just a wild guess based on 1/10 + 1/15 chance to go away) 08:26:59 oh, 1/15 is too high i think, half the time i think the mutation is simply cancelled instead of removing something 08:27:07 so 1/10 and 1/30 08:54:35 [Sprint3] Random unreachable identified items in walls. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5009) by Ragdoll 08:55:04 kilobyte: wrt lorcs: yeah, fighting in lava definitely needs to be nerfed; i was thinking maybe they need to be super-ponderous in lava and unable to attack out of it 08:55:16 and nerfing their heat aura to be radius 1 max 08:55:45 that way, fighting in lava is rarely going to be more effective than fighting outside of it 08:56:24 and taking a dip to max out your heat would require some time to get in and then out of the lava 08:57:17 added !evo to the wiki 08:59:37 Monsters with blink are randomly able to blink trough vetrified walls. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5010) by Ragdoll 09:07:03 dont they have a zerksplosion? 09:07:52 that sounds like it would make lorc berserker pretty silly 09:09:05 nerfing heat aura radius would help with that of course 09:11:48 as long as it's tied to tension or something else easily gameable, I have trouble seeing how nerfing would help 09:13:50 with radius 1 you can still use it to effortlessly defeat any group of speed <=10 enemies -- get them into a big enough group to meet the tension requirement then run in a circle, pausing whenever the first one dies 09:17:17 i think the theme is incredibly awesome, though 09:17:29 would be great if it could be made to work in crawl 09:20:01 maybe it could be tied to dealing damage (relative to xl) 09:21:05 or work like DS passive freeze 09:21:06 or to monster exp*monster hp/monster max hp/exp for next xl 09:21:23 passive freeze is horrible though 09:21:30 mostly because it doesnt scale at all 09:22:02 neither does the fire aura currently 09:22:05 and just turning the heat gauge into a set of constant effects would lose much of the proposal and much of the awesomeness 09:22:07 (which can be changed) 09:22:10 also would dodge a lot of the problems 09:22:36 they could have passive aura only at max heat 09:22:44 then heat is still gameable 09:22:49 still problematic because of being gameable, yeah 09:23:07 just not as abusable for free speed-less kiting 09:23:42 hm, could be made to be awesome too 09:23:48 random explosions on taking damage at high heat 09:24:03 i mean rare, and big, with clouds 09:24:12 as in BOOM 09:24:21 I mean, unless your speed is >10 there is very few monsters you can kite, and if your speed is only slightly above 10, you have to tediously run a lot between every hit 09:24:58 explosions and clouds on damage rather than randomly I assume? 09:25:08 yes 09:25:26 would kill Beogh but could rock otherwise 09:25:31 something like 1 explosion per full bar of hp on average 09:26:20 and i meant on taking damage, but random, not every time 09:26:44 yeah, x_chance_in_y(damage_taken, you.max_hp) 09:27:09 the clouds might allow keeping up high heat through the battle, too, although clouds providing heat would be gameable with the flame cloud spell... 09:27:13 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Now with extra fish!] 09:27:25 hrm right :( 09:27:56 I kind of wonder whether golemizing them could work 09:28:14 magma golem? 09:28:18 theme: if you're molten, hitting you could splash the lava 09:28:25 or just golem core goes boom? 09:28:39 overdrive etc 09:30:06 hm, so regular/magma golem depending on heat 09:30:15 but... orcs! 09:30:27 also there are a lot of good golem ideas already 09:30:34 including two proposals with patches 09:30:35 s/good // 09:31:13 few new species have worked without lots of tweaking 09:31:27 and between the two proposals there are a lot of things that could work well 09:32:12 its just that i cant tolerate the golem tavern thread anymore and skipped roughly the second half, and the implemented proposals only contain some of the stuff that was brought up 09:32:34 mostly skipping the bad stuff 09:32:44 s/bad/worst/ 09:35:30 xomscumming (L1 MuCK) ASSERT(feat < NUM_FEATURES) in 'feature.cc' at line 24 failed. (Abyss (Sprint)) 09:51:58 -!- absolutego has left ##crawl-dev 10:08:14 -!- ais523_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:05:57 -!- Wop has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:06:37 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:19:42 -!- Wop has joined ##crawl-dev 11:26:46 minmay the Eclecticist (L23 DsEE) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1405 failed on turn 101538. (D:25) 11:36:00 minmay the Eclecticist (L23 DsEE) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1405 failed on turn 103286. (D:26) 11:37:17 minmay the Eclecticist (L23 DsEE) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1405 failed on turn 103577. (D:26) 11:40:14 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110929064733]] 11:41:17 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:53:31 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:53:35 minmay the Eclecticist (L24 DsEE) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1405 failed on turn 108539. (Vault:6) 11:55:04 minmay the Eclecticist (L24 DsEE) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1405 failed on turn 108809. (Vault:6) 11:55:56 I think it's broken! 11:56:09 hopefully reproducibly borken 11:58:21 minmay the Eclecticist (L24 DsEE) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1405 failed on turn 109976. (Vault:7) 11:58:30 minmay the Eclecticist (L24 DsEE) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1405 failed on turn 109978. (Vault:7) 12:00:54 minmay the Eclecticist (L24 DsEE) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1405 failed on turn 111099. (Vault:7) 12:03:07 minmay the Eclecticist (L24 DsEE) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1405 failed on turn 111637. (Vault:7) 12:04:05 minmay the Eclecticist (L24 DsEE) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1405 failed on turn 111096. (Vault:7) 12:08:34 looks pretty reproducible 12:17:30 minmay the Eclecticist (L24 DsEE) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1405 failed on turn 113443. (Vault:8) 12:17:50 minmay the Eclecticist (L24 DsEE) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1405 failed on turn 113440. (Vault:8) 12:19:35 Cryp71c: there are at least two bugs related to passive freeze 12:19:54 first, do_passive_freeze doesn't check that the defender is the player 12:20:31 second, do_passive_freeze should be called sometime later 12:20:36 at least after calc_damage() 12:20:45 there might be more that needs to be changed, I don't know 12:21:55 elliptic, k, I'll take a look...looks like he's running into it w/ autofight...I wonder if - like the earlier bug - it doesn't produce itself without it. 12:22:06 it isn't a matter of autofight 12:22:51 like, I glanced at the code and it is clearly wrong :P 12:22:57