00:02:49 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2410-gfde24eb (32)
00:08:58 <CIA-54> 03SamB * r302122d87cd3 10/crawl-ref/source/ (describe.cc directn.cc): More capitalization fixes.
00:16:52 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2411-g302122d
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04:17:11 <Ashenzari> Halfling's innate mutation resistance applies to potions of gain foo (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4984) by absolutego
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07:33:40 <Cryp71c> Morning
07:33:41 <Henzell> Cryp71c: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them.
07:33:46 <Cryp71c> !messages
07:33:46 <Cryp71c> !messages
07:33:46 <Cryp71c> !messages
07:33:47 <Henzell> (1/3) |amethyst said (7h 43m 17s ago): !lm soul crash 35 -log   If the attacker dies upon damaging the defender (e.g. from mummy curse), it is not safe to call attacker->damage_type().  Probably that should be stored in a member the way damage_brand is
07:33:47 <Henzell> (1/2) |amethyst said (7h 41m 44s ago): also, if decapitate_hydra() returns true but the attacker is dead, handle_phase_damage() should probably return false
07:33:47 <Henzell> (1/1) |amethyst said (7h 40m 34s ago): that does mean that the damage brand won't go through if the attacker dies, though
07:35:07 <Cryp71c> Eronarn, was thinking about what you said yesterday, I don't think delaying the killing of a monster will solve all the issues surrounding an attacker / defender dying in the middle of the code (invalidating certain effects and checks, similar to what amethyst is describing)
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08:20:15 <Keskitalo> I just had a meeting with the new usability project team ("KiSS"). They will work on the tutorials. They did a premilinary evaluation of the current tutorial, and will post it somewhere soon.
08:21:15 <ghallberg> Keskitalo: woo :)
08:24:19 <Keskitalo> Indeed! :)
08:25:17 <Keskitalo> It sounded and felt like the project will go well.
08:26:48 <Cryp71c> Anyone familiar with the vault des files explain one question I had off the bat..in evil_forest (http://paste.scsys.co.uk/163526) why are : and ; used for floor when you could just use . like everywhere else?
08:27:26 <Keskitalo> It's coloured different with the COLOUR liners
08:27:28 <Keskitalo> lines
08:28:04 <Cryp71c> ah, I see..and the lava, why is it included in the color? (isn't lava always red?)
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08:29:06 <Keskitalo> You probably mean the '1'
08:29:17 <Keskitalo> not 'l'
08:30:29 <Cryp71c> ah, derp.
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08:31:24 <Cryp71c> And monsters are just the order of the #s? 0 is the first MONS, 1 is second, etc.
08:32:15 <|amethyst> 1 is the first MONS:, 0 is a normal monster for the level
08:32:52 <|amethyst> (and 9 and 8 are random OOD monsters)
08:33:10 <Zaba> Cryp71c, what |amethyst said; also note that MONS: a, b, c is the same as MONS: a \n MONS: b \n MONS: c
08:33:59 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, so what if you want more than 7 types of monsters in a vault?
08:34:06 <Zaba> you use KMONS
08:34:15 <Cryp71c> Zaba, so having them all in one line doesn't form an OR-type logic?
08:34:23 <Zaba> Cryp71c, no, that's what / is for
08:34:43 <Cryp71c> ah, gotcha.
08:34:46 <Cryp71c> Never done any vault stuff
08:34:47 <Cryp71c> thanks!
08:35:17 <|amethyst> docs/devel/levels/syntax.txt has more info
08:35:27 <|amethyst> (and the other files in the same directory)
08:37:15 <ghallberg> Does the / square contain both the portal and an item?
08:37:28 <ghallberg> Since it's both in KFEAT and KITEM
08:37:34 <|amethyst> yes
08:38:19 <ghallberg> And the Gs?
08:38:52 <|amethyst> granite statue
08:38:53 <Zaba> Gs are statues
08:38:56 <ghallberg> Ah
08:43:22 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * r8c5e5a4a92bb 10/crawl-ref/source/decks.cc: Don't assume any numeric values of deck rarity enums.
08:43:22 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * r97cfd074a8ac 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Fix the netted launcher penalty doing nothing.
08:43:23 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * r66ea30cc5441 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-wanderer.cc: Convert FeWn with invalid weapon skills to unarmed.
08:43:23 <CIA-54> 03ghallberg * r5e557b70aafc 10/crawl-ref/source/ (item_use.cc potion.cc potion.h): Sparkling fountain of Poison should show up as cause of death.
08:43:23 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * rac21c3906896 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h main.cc player.cc player.h): Reform felid lives; give information when you'll get a next one.
08:43:24 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * r229f60c5ea74 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h food.h itemprop-enum.h): Axe a number of useless comments about enum values.
08:43:24 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * rd78438e2ce57 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/ (branches/lair.des builder/food.des): Attach nutritional labels to old food vaults.
08:43:24 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * rf5799552b478 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/ (branches/lair.des builder/food.des): Make the strawberry field a field, drop porridge from the owner's cottage.
08:43:25 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * r00275a64eb24 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/quotes.txt: A quote for Ice Storm.
08:43:25 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * r13907ac78360 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/undead/skeletons/skeleton_toad.png: Robsoie's adjustment to his skeletal toad tile.
08:43:35 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * rd596e63861a7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (11 files in 3 dirs): roctavian's tiles for Trove, Bazaar, expired Ice Cave, WizLab.
08:43:38 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * r7979e89c51e3 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/food.des: Attach nutritional labels to hangedman's food vaults.
08:49:30 <Cryp71c> kilobyte, been busy? :P
08:53:20 <kilobyte> with non-Crawl stuff; these commits are mostly a flush of what was rotting on my disk.  Still got to rebalance food vaults, and so on.
08:53:40 <Keskitalo> Tutotrial messages that define colour tags to hilight certain words lose the tutorial colouring after the closing colour tag.
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08:59:18 <Ashenzari> Tutorial message colouring is lost when colour tags are used (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4985) by evktalo
09:00:32 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * r99dfa2b44934 10/crawl-ref/source/potion.cc: Less castrated sheep in comments, please.
09:14:40 <alefury> vault syntax is on the wiki too
09:14:54 <alefury> its a lot more readable in that format imo
09:15:59 <alefury> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:help:maps
09:16:20 <alefury> in case Cryp71c and ghallberg are wondering about more stuff
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09:30:16 <ortoslon> is dumb smiles stepping into my conjured flames and dying intended to anger Jiyva?
09:31:52 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2424-g99dfa2b (32)
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10:31:57 <elliptic> kilobyte: "average players" aren't reaching XL28, so the cap didn't affect them :P however I won't object to the lack of a cap if there is feedback on how close you are to the next life
10:32:28 <elliptic> which I know you added, but I just tested it and it looks buggy: "If you died right now, you'd get an extra life in 0.-1 levels worth of XP."
10:33:50 <elliptic> (this is with an XL 28.01 char who just regained a life)
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12:29:26 <Henzell> nuc the Cutthroat (L12 SpEn) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 445 failed on turn 2515. (D)
12:33:15 <blueDave> lol @ castrated sheep commit :)
12:37:04 <elliptic> !lm nuc crash -log
12:37:04 <Sequell> No milestones for nuc (crash).
12:37:13 <elliptic> !lm nuc sprint crash -log
12:37:13 <Sequell> 1. nuc, XL12 SpEn, T:2515 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/nuc/crash-nuc-20111130-182925.txt
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13:26:37 <kilobyte> Cryp71c: AT_CHERUB causes a crash due to no verb as well; it should have been replaced by an appropriate attack for one of the heads.
13:28:04 <kilobyte> Cryp71c: dfe1758b had this line:
13:28:11 <kilobyte> attk.type = static_cast<mon_attack_type>(random_choose(AT_HIT, AT_BITE, AT_PECK, AT_GORE, -1));
13:32:24 <kilobyte> oh, I see: fight.cc line 185 picks an attack type but melee_attack redundantly queries it again
13:40:08 <Cryp71c> kilobyte, mons_attack_spec really aught to handle AT_CHERUB being re-picked from that list, not the combat code, imo.
13:40:16 <Cryp71c> But if you want it in melee_attack, I can move it.
13:41:17 <kilobyte> at least picking it in that place is useless, attack type is queried only to check for AT_NONE, AT_SHOOT and friends
13:41:36 <Cryp71c> (and in truth, melee_attack:124-133 would fall into that argument as well, but it was less potential arguing if I just added it in the manner it is now)
13:41:39 <Cryp71c> yeah, definitely.
13:41:40 <kilobyte> it's due's code not mine, and I really can't think of a reason for him to prefer a particular placement
13:43:11 <Cryp71c> k, I'll move the appropriate stuff. In cases of skipped attacks (attk.type == AT_NONE) (and the dummy code below that in fight) should that be let into the melee_attack code, which then checks for it (and exits)?
13:46:57 <kilobyte> probably, yeah -- but don't ask me, I haven't really looked at the rewritten code
13:50:41 <Cryp71c> k, sounds good to me. That's what makes the most sense, but that doesn't necessarily mean its good code organization.
13:52:07 <kilobyte> let's see, is one of us doing an overhaul of this code to make it actually resemble something nicer than winME's source?
13:52:38 <kilobyte> this is exactly the time to organize it the way you think would be best :)
13:53:12 <Cryp71c> :P
13:55:47 <Ashenzari> Level annotations for uniques aren't removed on death. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4986) by argonaut
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14:09:54 <SamB> Yeah, ME's code must be an insane mix of NT and 3.1 and who-knows-what ...
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14:26:37 <SamB> hmm, it would be nice to be able to drop, say, 7 aum of darts
14:37:08 <CIA-54> 03elliptic * r0d56aa731012 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Fix monsters getting permanently labeled as helpless (Mantis 4986).
14:37:11 <CIA-54> 03elliptic * rfb910549e225 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Don't clear stab_bonus inside the aux code.
14:39:26 <Cryp71c> elliptic, ..wierd, could've sworn I fixed that allready.. (the permanently helpless)...I must have never commited it...
14:39:30 <Cryp71c> my bad..
14:39:37 <elliptic> Cryp71c: your fix didn't handle everything
14:39:42 <Cryp71c> oh ok
14:39:46 <elliptic> missed one instance, in the aux code
14:39:54 <Cryp71c> Ah, right.
14:39:57 <Cryp71c> thanks
14:41:28 <kilobyte> ooh nice, tried like everything but not auxes :p
14:42:39 <elliptic> I'm not sure exactly which messages should use "helpless" but the current status seems okay for now
14:45:57 <elliptic> kilobyte: have you looked at the felid "0.-1 levels" bug I mentioned earlier? I was going to fix it myself but then I couldn't figure out what was going on. I did notice though that it looks like you.attribute[ATTR_LIFE_GAINED] probably gets zeroed whenever you lose a level by draining, though, which might cause other problems...
14:46:39 <elliptic> (like, people getting drained on purpose to regain a life sooner)
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15:04:09 <kilobyte> ah, fixed a hour ago, pushing
15:04:19 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * raf59dbecf5e5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc player.cc): Fix the display of XL checkpoints after 27.
15:04:22 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * r74ecc0291b0e 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-overview.cc: Don't list portals back to the Vestibule on ^O.
15:04:31 <kilobyte> by draining? good catch
15:08:15 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * r63f921021a04 10/crawl-ref/source/ (misc.cc player.cc): Clear the felid life gain blocker only on death, not on draining.
15:08:25 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * rb0425c440e20 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Remove an useless calculation.
15:10:19 <kilobyte> elliptic: monster minotaurs are supposed to retaliate too, right?
15:10:32 <kilobyte> now with ucc in they can
15:10:37 <elliptic> kilobyte: ideally they would, but it isn't currently coded, yeah
15:10:43 <kilobyte> I mean, we can let them
15:10:50 <elliptic> right, should be much easier now :)
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15:12:29 <elliptic> at least to make them retaliate to the main attack; retaliating to player auxes would be harder and probably a bad idea (not good for auxes to be negative)
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15:13:36 <kilobyte> rotfl... a fun bug, fortunately harmless: be a felid in dragon form.  Die.  Butcher your corpse -> dragon hide.
15:13:50 <kilobyte> should I fix this one
15:14:13 <elliptic> do you leave a felid corpse that turns into a dragon hide or a dragon corpse
15:14:31 <kilobyte> dragon corpse
15:15:03 <greatzebu> the behavior of shapeshifters suggests that you should leave a felid corpse...but I like the "bug" behavior
15:15:33 <kilobyte> player_mons() seems to have no other non-UI uses...
15:15:46 <elliptic> if you polymorph a monster and then kill it then it doesn't return to the original form though
15:15:54 <kilobyte> (I hoped to code minotaur retaliation by strictly REMOVING code only :p)
15:17:04 <Cryp71c> kilobyte, let me know how much you have to do to do monster minotaur retaliation...it'll give me a sense of success (IAOI I disregard all the crashes, unintended changes, bugs, and wierd behavior that ucc caused)
15:18:48 <Cryp71c> :P
15:19:40 <kilobyte> if we had a virtual function that returns the species as a monster enum, we could make retaliation use _almost_ no special casing
15:19:59 <kilobyte> slaying and mutation[MUT_HORNS] mostly left
15:20:26 <kilobyte> hrm no, in lich form player_mons() returns MONS_LICH
15:21:42 <elliptic> @??minotaur
15:21:43 <Gretell> minotaur (04H) | Speed: 10 | HD: 13 | Health: 52-92 | AC/EV: 5/7 | Damage: 35, 20 | Res: 06magic(52) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1382.
15:22:03 <Cryp71c> kilobyte, would <3 to unify player species and monster enums...or else have monsters also use species? Idk..some symmetry there would simplify lots of stuff I would imagine.
15:22:27 <elliptic> kilobyte: might be better to make monster retaliation damage just be 1d20 anyway
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15:24:56 <kilobyte> elliptic: retaliating to an aux has 50% chance
15:25:06 <kilobyte> or a second attack of a monster
15:26:50 <elliptic> kilobyte: I'm just not sure we want stuff like horns to have possibly negative consequences for the player
15:27:18 <kilobyte> er, obviously not
15:27:25 <kilobyte> except horns on enemy minotaurs :)
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15:28:15 <elliptic> it might be okay though, and it would be more symmetric
15:28:19 <elliptic> not sure...
15:28:42 <kilobyte> symmetric way would be removal of multiple retaliation
15:29:13 <kilobyte> makes sense I think... shouldn't matter if it's a hydra attacking you
15:29:26 <elliptic> but you only get a chance to retaliate on a miss
15:29:45 <elliptic> and more attacks means more misses means more chances, even if you aren't allowed to retaliate more than once in a round
15:32:30 <kilobyte> so what should I do?  Choices: 1. if you get hit, no retaliation on subsequent attacks -- so only the first one allows retaliation; 2. special-casing players.
15:33:40 <kilobyte> I prefer 1, but retaliation is your baby.
15:34:06 <kilobyte> oh, before e1dcbbaf there was a cap on one retaliation, there is none currently
15:34:45 <elliptic> option 1 means that only the main attack matters, if you are also capping at one retaliation
15:35:18 <elliptic> is that what you meant?
15:35:41 <kilobyte> yeah -- no retaliation on auxes, both player and monster ones
15:37:24 <elliptic> sure, do that... should also be really simple to code, since you just need to remove " || coinflip()" on line 403 of melee_attack.cc
15:38:02 <elliptic> (the player aux code doesn't go through handle_phase_dodged() currently)
15:40:40 <blueDave> just noticed, current version of melee_attack doesn't have allow_unarmed, has that broken the player's aux unarmed attacks again?
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15:44:23 <blueDave> trying to track down which commit removed it
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15:46:17 <kilobyte> wtf... I'm close (but not adjacent) to a minotaur, keep shouting... and the damn bastard doesn't want to wake up
15:46:24 <kilobyte> wizmode, all skills at 27
15:49:03 <elliptic> blueDave: I cleaned up the aux unarmed code a bit, which included removing allow_unarmed
15:49:29 <elliptic> kilobyte: I've tried to reproduce that before but failed...
15:49:43 <elliptic> kilobyte: where are you (and the minotaur)?
15:50:16 <blueDave> hmm, I was forcing that flag on for octopodes and nagas, to drive the constriction code
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15:50:58 <blueDave> I'll try to figure out another way in the current setup then ;)
15:51:00 <kilobyte> 2 north 1 west from it
15:51:24 <elliptic> kilobyte: I meant branch
15:51:33 <elliptic> since ambient noise could have something to do with this
15:52:00 <kilobyte> current master
15:52:07 <kilobyte> ah, Vestibule
15:56:49 <elliptic> still can't reproduce
15:57:54 <elliptic> bluedave: melee_attack::_extra_aux_attack() is the main place that decides whether you can use a given aux
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16:00:32 <elliptic> the argument is_base tells whether the attack came from your UC skill (for punch/kick/headbutt); if it didn't, then you need to have the appropriate mutation
16:00:36 <blueDave> right, but doesn't even reach there unless fights_well_unarmed returned true, where for constriction the design was to make it intrinsic
16:00:52 <elliptic> no, it reaches there
16:00:53 <blueDave> so I bypass that check and set the base attack to my new UNAT_CONSTRICT value
16:01:29 <kilobyte> can't seem to reproduce the sleeping when being shouted at thing either, hrm
16:01:39 <blueDave> was working great, till the code cleanup ;)
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16:02:17 <blueDave> thanks, that helped me remember where to adjust to the cleanup
16:02:47 <elliptic> blueDave: for a brief time after UCC, you needed to pass the check in fights_well_unarmed() to get any aux attack... but that was a bug :)
16:03:36 <blueDave> kilobyte: I might have run across that sleeping thing too, but don't remember the circumstances
16:05:18 <elliptic> kilobyte: something that might or might not be related: if you cast a noisy spell (like lightning bolt) with a wizard command, then it won't wake up the monster until your next regular action
16:05:42 <elliptic> this isn't really surprising though
16:07:16 <kilobyte> I used regular shout (as a felid, so meow)
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16:08:19 <kilobyte> noise 12, like for other races
16:08:26 <elliptic> one_chance_in(20) ? " (and be thought a fool)" : "");
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16:08:31 <elliptic> I never noticed this :)
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16:08:50 <blueDave> I've had that message
16:08:54 <kilobyte> dammit, effective_attack_number is always -1 for players :(
16:09:21 <elliptic> that could probably be changed to 0, I guess?
16:10:49 <blueDave> think it uses -1 because it's referencing a 0 relative array
16:11:17 <blueDave> can't test 0 for none that is
16:12:26 <kilobyte> I can't seem to find where auxes get called from
16:14:00 <elliptic> handle_phase_end() for some reason
16:14:04 <elliptic> unless you mean something else
16:14:30 <kilobyte> ghrm, it's a part of a single attack :(
16:14:42 <elliptic> yeah, of course ideally that will be fixed sometime
16:15:12 <elliptic> kilobyte: anyway, you shouldn't need to touch anything about auxes if minotaurs aren't retaliating against them
16:17:22 <blueDave> the minotaur retaliation is coded as a player action only, right?
16:17:37 <blueDave> you.species == SP_MINOTAUR
16:17:38 <elliptic> right now it is, but kilobyte is working on making monster minotaurs do it also
16:17:47 <blueDave> ah, ok
16:17:48 <blueDave> gotcha
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16:25:06 <Gretell> hayenne (L13 MuSu) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1123 failed. (D (Sprint))
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16:25:30 <kilobyte> elliptic: how high STR and DEX are monster minotaurs supposed to have?
16:25:38 <kilobyte> if (5 * you.strength() + 7 * you.dex() > random2(600))
16:25:55 <hayenne> My CDO game just silently crashed, is there any way to get additional information?
16:26:02 <due> kilobyte: why not use ev and hd?
16:26:22 <due> hayenne: Go to your morgue directory and find the latest crash file.
16:26:28 <hayenne> thanks due
16:26:29 <due> !lg hayenne crash -log
16:26:29 <Sequell> Unknown selector: verb
16:26:35 <elliptic> kilobyte: uh, how about 20 or 25 for each
16:26:35 <due> !lm hayenne crash -log
16:26:36 <Sequell> 5. hayenne, XL13 SETm, T:22190 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/hayenne/crash-hayenne-20111025-162136.txt
16:26:39 <due> hayenne: --^
16:26:45 <due> Or it reports hjere so.
16:27:10 <hayenne> 25 October, does not seem like my latest game though
16:27:23 <elliptic> !lm hayenne sprint crash -log
16:27:24 <Sequell> 5. hayenne, XL13 MuSu, T:9874 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/hayenne/crash-hayenne-20111130-222453.txt
16:27:26 <elliptic> that's it
16:27:27 <kilobyte> 275/600 chance
16:27:30 <due> Oh, Sprint crash.
16:28:14 <hayenne> oh, thanks elliptic
16:28:15 <elliptic> kilobyte: what is that? 20 str and 25 dex? I meant 20 str and 20 dex or 25 str and 25 dex
16:28:43 <elliptic> hayenne: the crash is known, by the way
16:29:00 <hayenne> ah, ok
16:29:01 <kilobyte> 20/20 is 40% chance, 25/25 is 50%
16:29:06 <elliptic> yeah
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16:33:51 <Gretell> grrr (L13 TrTm) ASSERT(!src_pos.origin()) in 'mon-behv.cc' at line 919 failed. (Lair:8)
16:34:00 <elliptic> !lm * crash -log
16:34:01 <Sequell> 1926. grrr, XL13 TrTm, T:20184 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/grrr/crash-grrr-20111130-223339.txt
16:36:49 <due> Huh.
16:36:57 <due> That wasnt an evil_Forest crash was it?
16:39:55 <Gretell> grrr (L13 TrTm) ASSERT(!src_pos.origin()) in 'mon-behv.cc' at line 919 failed. (Lair:8)
16:40:47 <elliptic> !lm * crash -log
16:40:47 <Sequell> 1927. grrr, XL13 TrTm, T:20437 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/grrr/crash-grrr-20111130-223943.txt
16:44:09 <kilobyte> ghrmdammit... KILLED_BY_MONSTER: Demolished by a minotaur ... wielding headbutt
16:44:16 <elliptic> haha
16:44:26 * due wields headbutt furiously!
16:44:31 <kilobyte> KILLED_BY_BEAM is "from afar"
16:44:47 <due> check how exploding spores do it?
16:44:48 <kilobyte> and adding a new kill type needs messing with 678789454 places
16:44:57 <kilobyte> KILLED_BY_SPORE
16:45:02 <due> oh.
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17:00:38 <evilmike> kilobyte: I've been working on a holy pan level (finally). Mostly finished a TSO section. I'm thinking of maybe splitting this into two or three large floating vaults instead of an encompass vault. Maybe uniq_foo them if it's supposed to be a once-a-game thing
17:01:06 <evilmike> only problem at the moment, is that large vaults (and encompass) dont seem to work well in pan. Get a lot of "bad vault place" stuff, even with encompass vaults. I've never seen that in other branches
17:04:17 <kilobyte> evilmike: I thought everyone forgot about it, so I started with a subvault way
17:04:26 <kilobyte> don't have a lot done, though
17:04:46 <evilmike> subvaults have potential
17:06:11 <evilmike> the TSO section I made contains the seraph, a lot of 'A' monsters, ophans, and paladins. I also have ideas for a zin section with some of the weirder holies, boss there would be a silver star. To me that feels like two totally different maps though
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17:06:59 <evilmike> oh yeah another problem - if i make a zin themed vault/section, the holies still cause TSO wrath :P
17:07:04 <kilobyte> my one has four large structures with a yard in between
17:07:05 <evilmike> even silver stars
17:08:15 <blueDave> anyone know how to get back to a gdb prompt when running tiles under it?  in windows...
17:08:37 <kilobyte> I added Elyvilon's retribution recently, Zin could get there too
17:08:47 <kilobyte> blueDave: alt-tab?
17:08:54 <|amethyst> blueDave:  in Unix ctrl-c does it
17:09:00 <evilmike> one thing that could be nice is being allowed to define, say, "angel god:Zin"
17:09:11 <evilmike> you can do this with monsters already, it mostly changes the message for Smite
17:09:34 <blueDave> alt-tab gets to the window but no prompt, ctrl-c doesn't seem to do anything
17:09:55 <|amethyst> does ctrl-break do anything?
17:09:59 <blueDave> the reason I asked, out of the blue it spiked 2 CPUs to 100%
17:10:51 <elliptic> hm, those crashes by grrr seem to be because melee is sometimes creating noise at (0,0)
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17:12:49 <|amethyst> handle_noise(defender->pos())
17:12:55 <|amethyst> if the defender is dead...
17:13:01 <elliptic> yeah
17:13:40 <due> evilmike: yiou can't already?
17:13:45 <SamB> probably we should not be ignoring SIGINT for tiles?
17:14:09 <evilmike> due: "angel god:Zin" works, in that if it somehow picks up smite (or torment or something) it will smite you via zin
17:14:11 <evilmike> but the wrath will be TSO
17:14:54 <due> Ahhh
17:15:03 <due> Probably because Zin wrath hasn't been implemented yet
17:15:24 <SamB> and we forgot a "break" somewhere?
17:15:42 <evilmike> oh, I might as well ask: what do spirits do?
17:15:52 <evilmike> do they just run away from you and nothing else?
17:16:13 <SamB> they make you drunk, duh
17:17:03 <ghallberg> SamB: True story, I've been testing the hypothesis all night.
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17:20:35 <st_> evilmike: funny coincidence... I started working on a holy vault today. I just finished a layout I'm happy with and I looked over at irc and read that
17:20:46 <evilmike> heh
17:20:59 <ghallberg> Three of them now?
17:21:01 <evilmike> one thing I have been thinking... perhaps the "holy pan level" could work as a holy portal vault that shows up in pan?
17:21:40 <evilmike> I think being a portal vault would address some of the issues with having this sort of thing in pandemonium (eg being dumped into a random part of the level)
17:21:49 <evilmike> on the other hand it would be really easy to miss unless the portal was repeatable
17:22:35 <st_> well, I'm not really sure what people's ideas are for introducing holies to crawl, I'm not sure why they are in pan in the first place
17:24:05 <evilmike> the idea is that they've established a foothold in some sort of holy war, and you just stumbled across their territory
17:24:21 <evilmike> at least, that's how I see it. Perhaps holy pan levels could have a special message to hint that
17:24:45 <evilmike> I also made my TSO thing as a walled fortress, to reflect that idea
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17:27:24 <evilmike> anyway here's what I currently have. Completely untested, probably going to redo parts of it. Really just a first draft http://pastebin.com/PdFVxhda
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17:28:04 <evilmike> The wall was the last part added, and I'm not happy with it. It makes it look too much like cerebov lives there.
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17:29:12 <st_> yes that was my first thought seeing it
17:30:19 <st_> I don't like smiters behind glass
17:30:27 <st_> it's getting overused
17:30:35 <evilmike> yeah
17:31:09 <CIA-54> 03Cryp71c * r965a83c03eb7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (fight.cc melee_attack.cc mon-util.cc): Fix AT_CHERUB and reorganize some attack skip code
17:32:17 <CIA-54> 03SamB * rb502127d4f35 10/crawl-ref/source/ (cio.cc hiscores.cc): A couple of comments I stashed ages ago and just found.
17:33:08 <st_> hm serephs will have a pretty huge HP pool
17:33:17 <st_> seraphs
17:34:51 <evilmike> yeah
17:34:56 <evilmike> it's supposed to be a boss
17:35:04 <evilmike> this level won't have a pan lord
17:35:43 <st_> are we planning for a holy pan lord? sounds an exciting prospect
17:36:37 <SamB> well, not a pan lord actually
17:37:29 <elliptic> |amethyst: do you know of any reason why having inflict_damage() clean up dead monsters is important for special damage? it seems like changing that solves some of the problems with the monster dying early; I just can't tell whether there was a reason for this
17:38:03 <evilmike> st_: I have given a lot of thought to this, and I think it's just a bad idea to mix demons and holies on the same level...
17:38:33 <evilmike> for example, I had an idea of a zin prison where a pan lord is behind a silver prison... you kill some angel warden and it is released, and tries to kill you. Sounds cool, except the pan lord will be allied with the angels :P
17:38:38 <evilmike> it just doesnt make sense
17:39:06 <SamB> do they cooperate, or just all try to kill you ?
17:39:13 <evilmike> yeah they cooperate
17:39:14 <st_> well I mostly just meant a & that is a holy guy
17:39:19 <evilmike> crawl doesn't really have monster infighting
17:39:41 <st_> "the" holy guy
17:40:50 <evilmike> hm, the random spells would have to draw from non-evil ones
17:41:11 <evilmike> I'd also use an 'A' glyph instead of a &, since & is just traditionally for demons and stuff
17:42:10 <evilmike> dewalled tso temple: http://pastebin.com/DZcwHjrM
17:42:15 <evilmike> I think this could work as a subvault
17:45:10 <st_> having a subvault for each god sounds like a good idea
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17:45:52 <evilmike> ely would be hard to design one for. At least the loot is easy to figure out
17:46:27 <st_> have hers be a bathhouse :P
17:46:30 <evilmike> loot-wise I'm thinking, TSO: good weapons from enemies, and a bunch of |. Zin: cure mutation?. ely: healing stuff
17:46:54 <kilobyte> evilmike: also, Zin's walls (created by the "imprison" ability) are made of silver
17:47:18 <evilmike> kilobyte: yeah, the zin temple would have silver walls (renamed metal)
17:47:29 <kilobyte> in my version they're lightgrey with stone recoloured white... which is quite misleading
17:47:36 <kilobyte> right
17:47:47 <evilmike> for ely, another would be a pasture or something with apis and perhaps a few holy swine
17:47:57 <evilmike> Could also add a "healer" vault monster, I dunno
17:49:44 <kilobyte> holy swine are supposed to be turned involuntarily... so not sure about that
17:50:00 <kilobyte> my version has sheep mixed with apises, probably bad
17:50:31 <kilobyte> human name:healer n_rpl spells:heal_other
17:50:40 <Eronarn> holy swine were dumb when they were added, and are still dumb
17:50:45 <Eronarn> just remove them
17:50:51 <kilobyte> Eronarn: uhm, porkalator
17:51:20 <Eronarn> kilobyte: demon -> hell hog is a stupid nethackism
17:51:27 <Eronarn> we shouldn't add a new monster just to keep it in place
17:51:46 <kilobyte> dpeg liked that so too late :p
17:51:46 <Eronarn> and even if you want to keep that it doesn't mean that As need to be able to be turned into hogs
17:53:59 <SamB> FR: heck freezes over
17:54:15 <evilmike> kilobyte: renaming a human still doesn't make it holy. a cheap way would be a renamed palaind
17:54:17 <evilmike> paladin*
17:54:30 <kilobyte> "heck" as in Gehennom, or hell in general?
17:54:51 <Eronarn> evilmike: why does a human need to be holy
17:55:01 <kilobyte> due: paladins are supposed to have that sacrifice thingy, right?
17:55:04 <Eronarn> oh, unless you mean the god thing
17:55:14 <evilmike> if it's a healer of ely, in an ely themed vault, being holy is important, because it should turn neutral if you're with a good god
17:55:15 <Eronarn> but that should be something vault-able anyways :P
17:55:16 <kilobyte> Eronarn: yeah
17:55:21 <evilmike> if it's not holy... it will just attack you
17:55:42 <kilobyte> should be a matter of the monster's god not species, I guess
17:55:58 <evilmike> good idea
17:56:00 <kilobyte> daevas of Xom...
17:56:07 <Eronarn> yeah
17:56:21 <Eronarn> i was thinking you meant the holy holiness
17:56:24 <Eronarn> rather than the holy flag
17:56:48 <evilmike> some spells are funny when they are cast using the "wrong" god. eg, yred-enslave a berserker monster, and it will use Yred's Hand
17:56:54 <kilobyte> we could get rid of the whole MH_HOLY thing
17:57:01 <Eronarn> evilmike: that's a bug :P
17:57:42 <evilmike> that's not even the best (worst) bug related to enslaving berserkers. If you want one to use BiA, you need to enslave it after it uses berserk, as far as I know
17:58:18 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * rf347a0535d7a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Turn seraphs into real monsters, they were broken by cherub changes.
17:58:31 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * rd022172a3516 10/crawl-ref/source/ (hiscores.cc melee_attack.cc ouch.h): Retaliation from monster minotaurs.
17:58:31 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * rff8a508e8bfb 10/crawl-ref/source/ (20 files in 5 dirs): An bunch of missspelings.
17:58:56 <Eronarn> kilobyte: i think doing stuff with more flags and less holiness would be good
17:59:08 <Eronarn> @??earth elemental
17:59:09 <Gretell> earth elemental (07E) | Speed: 6 | HD: 6 | Health: 33-57 | AC/EV: 14/4 | Damage: 40 | Flags: 11non-living | Res: 13magic(immune), 04fire+++, 12cold+++, 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 84.
17:59:36 <Eronarn> having an 'elemental' holiness would be bad, but a flag for elemental creatures would be good
18:01:22 <kilobyte> what's BiA on non-troggites supposed to do?
18:01:44 <Eronarn> fail as an invalid choice before they even attempt to attempt it :P
18:01:45 <kilobyte> Yred is one of few gods where there's an actual answer for that question :p
18:01:54 <kilobyte> probably best, yeah
18:02:15 <kilobyte> free BiA is massively overpowered
18:02:44 <evilmike> you can do sillier things with enslave
18:02:55 <evilmike> my favourite currently is to let a high hp enemy pick up a rod of demonology and then enslave it
18:02:56 <Eronarn> i wonder if maybe trog monsters shouldn't be able to use their abilities while magically enslaved
18:03:51 <Eronarn> this would be a good time to add in a way to tell which of a monster's abilities are provided by a god, of course :P
18:04:01 <kilobyte> Eronarn: as in, the spell/wand, or being a disembodied soul?
18:05:19 <Eronarn> kilobyte: the former; however, the latter should probably set the thing's god to Yred
18:05:36 <Eronarn> (and if you abandon, it should turn on you!)
18:05:54 <elliptic> kilobyte: "if (!x_chance_in_y(5, 5))"
18:05:59 <elliptic> was this intentional
18:06:02 <Eronarn> 'how could you make me suffer', etc.
18:06:05 <kilobyte> elliptic: doh, yeah, for testing
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18:06:50 <kilobyte> Eronarn: abandoning makes all Yred's servants turn on you already
18:07:47 <evilmike> I wonder if the Yred's hand thing is really a bug. The monster spell is coded so it's basically just "Hand" of whatever god the monster is following. So, whoever made that probably had weird cases like Yred enslavement in mind
18:08:30 <Eronarn> evilmike: it's a bug in the snese that only hand of trog is a thing :P
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18:16:17 <CIA-54> 03elliptic * r4101fbbc31ae 10/crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: Fix inconsistent noise levels for commands.
18:16:27 <CIA-54> 03elliptic * r03be1b6437b2 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Don't clean up dead monsters in combat until handle_phase_killed().
18:18:05 <elliptic> that commit *hopefully* fixes most of the crashes we've been getting recently without creating more
18:18:19 <CIA-54> 03elliptic * r48a291ede99f 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Fix monster minotaurs retaliating 100% of the time for testing.
18:19:27 <Eronarn> cool
18:19:52 <elliptic> updating CDO might be a good idea, if it isn't happening automatically in a few hours (I can never remember which days are update days)
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18:34:40 <SamB> elliptic: I thought that was every day
18:35:01 <elliptic> 4 days a week iirc
18:35:18 <evilmike> was the cao thing fixed (just curious)?
18:35:20 <elliptic> CAO was every day when its autoupdating was working, I think
18:35:26 <elliptic> not sure whether it is now
18:35:34 <evilmike> i noticed it was updated recently, wondering if it was automatic or manually done
18:35:55 <evilmike> my OgWn got about a month's worth of updates in one go
18:37:39 <elliptic> looking at logs, it seems that CAO is autoupdating at around 9:30 in whatever timezone the logs are in
18:40:17 <st_> evilmike: here's my first draft  http://pastebin.com/VKJKirWc  there isn't really any theme or thought behind it more than "big temple with holies in it"
18:40:37 <evilmike> cool
18:42:00 <evilmike> I think it would be fine to have more than one holy vault. If it's to be a once-a-game thing, just tag them all with uniq_holy_pan
18:45:28 <evilmike> this one has the same problem I was having with "bad vault place". Someone will need to add support for encompass vaults to pan...
18:45:43 <st_> definitely seems there's a lot of potential for holy monsters making cool situations, shame they will be so overpowering towards undead/demonic guys though...
18:46:08 <st_> yeah I just used &L
18:46:49 <evilmike> making the holy pan thing a portal vault would solve a lot of problems. Shame it would also add problems :P
18:49:05 <evilmike> middle area has two pearl dragons at once. that's scary
18:49:06 <st_> being dropped inside of vaults in pan is kind of a problem too, though it does provide danger/memorable times
18:50:04 <st_> everyone has stories about being dropped in view of hellion island
18:50:09 <alefury> i think its good
18:50:22 <alefury> pan is boring enough already
18:50:23 <evilmike> or dropped in the middle of it, for us lucky few
18:51:24 <evilmike> yesterday elliptic and I talked about how ghosts in pan should follow you like ignacio, instead of just deleting as soon as you go through a portal. That would be another small way to make pan better, imo
18:52:17 <alefury> sometimes i am sad crawl doesnt have sound
18:52:23 <evilmike> it has.... sound support
18:52:24 * alefury is listening to the jamestown soundtrack
18:52:37 <evilmike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jkorg2xnYI
18:52:57 <alefury> eww
18:53:16 <alefury> well, i dont really mean sound, i mean awesome music
18:53:36 <alefury> technically, letting people just listen to their own stuff is the best solution
18:53:41 <st_> okay the MGS sound effect was pretty funny
18:53:42 <alefury> but... jamestown soundtrack!
18:55:27 <evilmike> people can already listen to their own stuff :P
18:55:35 <Henzell> Palladion the Sorcerer (L27 DsCj) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1123 failed on turn 140081. (Tar:7)
18:55:46 <alefury> i know. no background music is the second best solution imo.
18:55:51 <alefury> awesome background music is better
18:56:02 <alefury> slightly less than awesome background music is worse
18:56:23 <st_> getting into a doomrl situation with sound is the absolute worst
18:56:42 <alefury> yeah, i havent played that, but watched youtube vids.
18:57:30 <evilmike> doomrl uses sound well in my opinion... but the problem is it's the one rougelike where blind players have an advantage over deaf players
18:57:34 <alefury> sound as a gameplay element works well in some games, like first person shooters
18:57:56 <alefury> but anything turn based should avoid it imo
18:58:03 <evilmike> doomrl also has the advantage of using the sounds from doom, which just happened to have extremely good sound effects by video game standards
18:58:16 <evilmike> although the plasma gun still gives me headaches
18:58:23 <alefury> sound for flavor (that you can switch off) is always great
18:59:10 <alefury> but as a gameplay element it only works in an action packed real time game imo
18:59:40 <elliptic> fortunately doomrl is perfectly playable with no sound
19:00:14 <alefury> from what i saw it does seem to provide a significant gameplay advantage
19:00:49 <Cryp71c> elliptic, thanks for your continued bulk of fixes
19:01:01 <kilobyte> elliptic: playable?  Maybe in new versions...
19:01:27 <kilobyte> I haven't played doomrl in ~3 years... but at that time sounds were pretty damn vital
19:01:31 <alefury> well, crawl is playable in auto skill mode, but manual mode does provide a significant advantage...
19:02:01 <alefury> depending on playing style
19:02:16 <evilmike> speaking of skill modes.. I think focus should be disabled by default. I might be in the minority on this though
19:02:20 <alefury> crawl is also playable without spoilers, to pick a more extreme example
19:02:36 <evilmike> I just think that skill focus makes the interface more complicated, without actually giving much to you. Also, some players misunderstand what focus even does
19:02:38 <kilobyte> Doom2, MAP06.  Every single door, every single switch has a different sound.
19:03:01 <kilobyte> try playing with someone who doesn't know that :p
19:03:12 <alefury> i prefer focus mode, i use focus in nearly every game
19:03:22 <alefury> it is especially important in auto mode, to train little used skills
19:03:46 <alefury> and in manual mode it allows for enough fine tuning to just forget about the skill screen for a looong time
19:04:02 <evilmike> I think focus can be alright, (though, I don't use it). I just think it is mostly unnecessary, and can be confusing
19:04:03 <alefury> without focus i would have to switch stuff on/off a lot more
19:04:10 <evilmike> ??focus
19:04:10 <Henzell> focus[1/3]: IT DOES NOT INCREASE YOUR TOTAL XP
19:04:16 <alefury> wtf?
19:04:17 <evilmike> ^^ this seems to come up a lot
19:04:24 <alefury> why are people stupid?
19:04:31 <Cryp71c> alefury, you guys are talking about "auto" ?
19:04:35 <evilmike> people seem to think that if you "focus" a skill you get more xp into it. You sometimes see people playing with all their skills focused
19:04:42 <evilmike> which is exactly the same as not using focus at all
19:04:48 <Cryp71c> oh, the '*'
19:05:11 <alefury> well, those people dont understand how crawl works at all
19:05:52 <alefury> lesson 1: if, taught by previous gaming experience, you see an obvious way to try and abuse a feature, don't. it wont work.
19:06:19 <evilmike> unless you're ragdoll
19:06:24 <alefury> all the abuses are very obscure, so trying to abuse something that is actually documented, like focus, is totally in vain
19:06:54 <alefury> focus is documented, right?
19:06:55 <alefury> right?
19:07:03 <evilmike> as far as I know
19:07:04 <kilobyte> such abuses tend to work in most games
19:07:46 <alefury> thats one of the things that sometimes makes me smile when playing crawl
19:08:00 <alefury> kneejerk reactions, taught by other games that do stupid shit
19:08:01 <Cryp71c> alefury, people think they can abusive not because they can't find documentation on it, but more likely just haven't bothered to look it up.
19:08:05 <evilmike> oh well, I can see the reason for having focus enabled by default. it's certainly not the worst default option...
19:08:15 <evilmike> that award goes to pickup_mode
19:08:34 <alefury> pickup_mode?
19:08:56 <evilmike> when you pick up items, there are few different ways of doing it. the default is to prompt you for each item on that square, basically
19:09:13 <evilmike> the best option is to set pickup_mode = multi, which will give you a nice menu
19:09:30 <alefury> mhh, it tends to work that way in tiles anyway
19:09:33 <alefury> by default
19:09:41 <elliptic> kilobyte: I've never used sound in doomrl and I have a pretty high rank (would probably need to start playing nightmare! to get it much higher)
19:09:41 <alefury> when using mouse controls
19:10:20 <elliptic> kilobyte: I don't know what older versions were like though
19:11:05 <elliptic> evilmike: I don't think I've ever tried setting pickup_mode to something
19:12:48 <kilobyte> elliptic: basically, you know what monsters to expect, at what distance and which direction
19:12:58 <evilmike> the default mode is "single", which lets you access a menu, but otherwise prompts for everything in the stack
19:13:13 <evilmike> it just seems objectively worse than going straight to the menu
19:13:15 <kilobyte> need headphones for direction, and it won't let you distinguish up from down
19:14:12 <elliptic> evilmike: single is sort of convenient for when you just want to pick up the top item quickly
19:16:17 <elliptic> about focus, it mainly just feels like an unnecessary complication to me in something that is already pretty complicated
19:16:40 <elliptic> but I can't tell whether new players actually have a problem with it
19:16:58 <alefury> i think almost all people who dont edit the settings files would prefer focus as the default
19:17:03 <Cryp71c> elliptic, it does complicate it and while its not -completely- necessary, it is rather useful. Perhaps enabling focus is an option (off by default, if its complicating new users)?
19:17:10 <alefury> and imo thats what should matter for default options
19:17:34 <elliptic> Cryp71c: well, it is an option, and it is on by default
19:17:48 <elliptic> I can't tell whether it being complicated is a problem
19:18:29 <kilobyte> it's convenient, but indeed can confuse newbies
19:18:30 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * r570cf5fdba28 10/crawl-ref/source/ (14 files in 3 dirs): roctavian's tiles for Spider Nest's floor.
19:18:52 <alefury> its not complicated, its just different from old versions
19:19:07 <kilobyte> perhaps, right
19:19:07 <elliptic> alefury: more complicated than not having focus!
19:19:31 <alefury> yes, but like i said, i think most people who dont edit their settings files would strongly prefer focus as the default
19:19:48 <alefury> and people who do edit their settings can edit their settings and get rid of focus
19:20:21 <elliptic> alefury: that may be true (that most people who don't edit their settings files would strongly prefer focus), but I'm curious what makes you think that?
19:20:25 <|amethyst> isn't having to turn skills on and off regularly in order to get the distribution you want also complicated?
19:20:42 <alefury> focus is very useful, and people like control
19:21:23 <alefury> also, i think most people who dont use focus do so because they are used to not having it
19:21:29 <elliptic> I wouldn't call it useful :P but you are right that people like control... I often see people asking for even more control
19:21:31 <alefury> not because focus is useless
19:21:32 <evilmike> the way I play, I usually don't feel the need for focus. I just have it disabled, so it's no big deal for me
19:21:54 <evilmike> I usually only have one skill on. Sometimes 3, at most. When I do have multiple skills I tend to be fine with them training equally
19:21:55 <elliptic> alefury: actually, most people who don't use focus do so because they are only training one skill at a time anyway
19:21:57 <Cryp71c> keep in mind that even if players wouldn't want focus by default, but learning / searching / wanting to turn it off in the options is a much better option than having it off by default, requiring users to notice it on some other occasion they're already in the options file.
19:22:03 <alefury> like i said, i use focus in every game
19:22:06 <elliptic> and then it really is useless
19:22:09 <alefury> i usually have at least 5 skills on
19:22:15 <Cryp71c> So even if its used by the minority, that still may not be a convincing reason to turn it off by default.
19:22:23 <alefury> unless im trying to get something working asap
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19:23:51 <evilmike> I'd say that's the case for every one of my characters, up until around mid-lair
19:23:58 <elliptic> alefury: just out of curiosity, would you like to have an "anti-focus" setting in the skill menu also?
19:24:03 <alefury> no
19:24:16 <alefury> i am content with the amount of control i have
19:24:28 <elliptic> and do you use auto or manual?
19:24:31 <alefury> and every time i just want to switch something off, having focus turned on stings a little
19:24:42 <alefury> manual mostly, because it saves time for me
19:24:54 <alefury> in auto i have to check if everything is working according to plan
19:25:05 <alefury> in auto i set things up once, then check back when i actually want to change something
19:25:13 <alefury> *manual
19:25:33 <evilmike> auto strikes me as being there for new players who don't fully understand skills. Seems good to me
19:25:57 <kilobyte> evilmike: that's what its intended purpose was!
19:26:07 <kilobyte> "do a reasonable thing"
19:26:13 <alefury> i have played with auto, and it was okay, but i needed focus to get some exp into skills i want but rarely use
19:26:14 <elliptic> does anyone know how well auto works for that? I personally haven't heard much feedback
19:26:26 <kilobyte> it failed to be good enough for advanced players to use it though
19:26:40 <elliptic> (not hearing much feedback about auto might be a good thing, not sure)
19:27:04 <evilmike> kilobyte: I think it will always fail at that... there will always be a point where human control will be superior to whatever the game thinks is best
19:28:11 <evilmike> I for one have never seen someone complain about auto mode
19:28:14 <evilmike> it seems to be working as intended.
19:29:02 <Eronarn> i think the fact that manual exists removes any complaints about auto
19:29:08 <Eronarn> if you know enough to complain, you'll use manual
19:29:09 <kilobyte> not "always": an automated mode might be better at calculating an optimal way, beating any but most knowledgeful micromanagers
19:29:15 <kilobyte> we're not there yet, though
19:29:56 <alefury> maybe try asking |blade|, who is now on irc. i think he started playing fairly recently (in .9), so he might be able to provide useful feedback from a newbie point of view.
19:30:06 <alefury> no idea if hes currently on though
19:31:35 <Cryp71c> kilobyte, I found auto suiting my needs pretty well except for when I wanted to start branching out into activities I wasn't using a whole lot (eg, casting as a fighter)
19:31:54 <Cryp71c> for which I'd focus spellcasting, for example..check back later and find that not near as much xp was getting put in because...well..I wasn't REALLY spellcasting.
19:31:57 <alefury> focus can help with that
19:32:07 <Cryp71c> But I'm not sure that's a problem, its just what auto does.
19:32:29 <alefury> focus ensures some exp to go into a skill
19:32:30 <kilobyte> Cryp71c: oh, so it's not as bad as I thought
19:32:32 <evilmike> when I want to get spells usable, I turn off everything but the magic skill(s)
19:32:35 <elliptic> alefury: turning all your skills off except the skill helps more
19:32:49 <evilmike> the way I see it, you want to get the spells usable as quickly as possible, so doing anything with focus is a bit wasteful
19:32:49 <alefury> yeah, but i dont like doing that
19:32:53 <alefury> better off using manual in that case
19:32:59 <alefury> (which i usually do)
19:33:01 <elliptic> well, it is equivalent to manual then
19:33:25 <elliptic> if you have only one skill on
19:33:30 <alefury> fuzzy skill levels are great
19:33:35 <kilobyte> focus is good for: "I want a bit of T&D, and I'm afraid I'll forget to turn it off before it sponges too much xp"
19:33:58 <evilmike> alefury: yes, partial skill levels is one of the best 0.10 things, in my opinion
19:34:07 <alefury> the best, by far
19:34:15 <Cryp71c> evilmike, that's not how I use it though..for some of the fighters who I know I want to cast with, I turn on spellcasting (non-focused, manual mode) and let xp trickle in so that it starts to train up without me falling behind on my critical (fighting) skills
19:34:16 <alefury> have you tried playing .9?
19:34:33 <Cryp71c> I really, really love manual mode and focus, because it really is a "set and don't worry about it for a while" feeling.
19:34:39 <alefury> while at least trying not to waste lots of exp?
19:34:44 <evilmike> yeah
19:34:50 <Cryp71c> So, take that for what its worth (an experienced, non-good player)
19:34:56 <evilmike> but 0.9 was a HUGE improvement over 0.8. I victory danced a lot
19:35:05 <alefury> yeah, definitely
19:35:07 <evilmike> and I also experienced the 0.8 phenomenon of getting a 2 million xp pool
19:35:15 <alefury> not complaining about .9, just .10 is so much better
19:36:09 <alefury> the skill system feels actually finished
19:36:20 <elliptic> alefury: smooth skills are less of a big deal if you were training skills one at a time anyway
19:36:23 <evilmike> shame galehar is away, he's made so many awesome changes to the crawl interface, skill system, etc
19:36:26 <elliptic> still very nice of course
19:36:53 <elliptic> alefury: also, I think skill training restrictions still need some work
19:36:57 <alefury> why would i train skills one at a time with smooth skills? there are situations where it makes a lot of sense, but often it just doesnt matter and is tedious.
19:37:03 <elliptic> but we are definitely getting a lot closer to finished :)
19:37:12 <Cryp71c> the *only* thing I'd like to see different is a modifier key I can hold off to quickly toggle stuff on-off (non-focused)
19:37:14 <elliptic> alefury: because usually there is one skill you care about most
19:37:17 <Cryp71c> (eg, shift)
19:37:25 <alefury> at first i was a bit pissed by training restrictions, but they dont really get in the way imo
19:37:29 <Cryp71c> s/hold off/hold on
19:37:44 <evilmike> the skill training restrictions seem good to me aside from a few corner cases
19:38:00 <evilmike> I like that, for example, I actually have to use a sword if I want to train long blades
19:38:11 <alefury> you dont, you only need to carry one
19:38:21 <evilmike> really? I guess I missed that
19:38:22 <alefury> you need to wear a shield or armour, though
19:38:33 <elliptic> training restrictions could use some work to be more consistent and get in the way even less, IMO
19:39:29 <alefury> well, one option would be removing them after level 1, because then the biggest issue (what skills are displayed) is moot anyway
19:39:48 <alefury> i dont think thats really needed, but it would make them get in the way less
19:40:39 <kilobyte> Shields are the only skill the restrictions do something
19:40:55 <alefury> armor too
19:41:00 <elliptic> alefury: that's not good, we don't want arbitrary cutoffs at L1 of a skill
19:41:07 <alefury> when you want to switch to dragon armor as a caster
19:41:21 <kilobyte> -1 EV armour has about no effect on casting
19:41:34 <alefury> elliptic: well, use whatever cutoff is used for displaying skills by default
19:41:35 <elliptic> kilobyte: right, I'd make the restrictions do nothing at all
19:41:46 <alefury> if thats .1 skill levels, make that the condition
19:41:56 <alefury> what i meant is, whenever its displayed anyway, drop the restriction
19:42:13 <elliptic> make it so you just have to carry a shield or weapon (no worries about swapping)
19:42:19 <elliptic> and make armour always trainable
19:42:56 <elliptic> alefury: there's a huge difference between default display and gameplay
19:43:17 <alefury> imo the whole point of skill restrictions is display of level 0 skills
19:43:28 <alefury> everything else could go out the window and i wouldnt miss it
19:43:42 <alefury> i wouldnt mind being able to train everything in m*
19:43:58 <alefury> but im fine with the status quo
19:44:03 <evilmike> it also strikes me as a way of idiot-proofing the system (only let you toggle skills that can do something for you)
19:44:06 <alefury> it very rarely gets in the way for me
19:44:07 <elliptic> alefury: the whole point was eliminating victory dancing, really
19:44:16 <elliptic> these other things are just nice side-effects :P
19:44:42 <alefury> well, yeah, im just assuming victory dancing to be gone. im quick to forget unpleasant things.
19:44:43 <SamB> elliptic: what does that have to do with the restrictions?
19:45:00 <elliptic> SamB: otherwise you'd have to display all skills
19:45:13 <elliptic> or force people to do m* all the time, which is really not good
19:45:31 <elliptic> SamB: in 0.9, you had to victory dance to get up to 1 in a skill
19:45:44 <elliptic> and only then could you turn it on (or off)
19:45:52 <SamB> okay, so it's like what alefury said
19:46:01 <SamB> the point is display of L0 skills
19:46:13 <alefury> i mean restrictions could handle m display, but not training
19:46:14 <SamB> and yes, I remember 0.9
19:46:18 <SamB> I actually played that for a while
19:46:36 <alefury> that wouldnt force people to use m* any more than the current restrictions force them to do weird shit to train certain skills
19:46:41 <alefury> which is rare
19:46:47 <elliptic> alefury: that was considered, yeah
19:47:13 <SamB> I like his idea
19:47:25 <SamB> I also like the idea of making them not buggy
19:47:34 <alefury> i am truly indifferent towards it
19:48:59 <elliptic> the main drawback of something like what alefury suggested is early-game, with people doing weird things like raising necromancy in preparation to worship kiku and get a necromancy book gift
19:49:26 <elliptic> that's something that the restrictions do a good job of preventing, since there isn't any "weird shit" you can do to get around that
19:49:34 <alefury> yeah, there definitely are disadvantages
19:49:41 <alefury> hence the indifference
19:49:48 <elliptic> in general I'd be fine with either system, yeah :)
19:50:06 <SamB> there are wierd things you can do about that
19:50:14 <SamB> though they might be highly scummy
19:50:20 <SamB> so scummy nobody would set out to do them
19:50:26 <elliptic> SamB: are you referring to the bug with storing up xp
19:50:44 <alefury> is there a way to do that without mastering a skill?
19:50:50 <SamB> no, I was thinking more like finding randomly placed books with necro spells
19:50:55 <|amethyst> alefury:  yeah
19:51:00 <elliptic> alefury: I think you can do it with skill restrictions
19:51:08 <|amethyst> alefury:  just turn off everything but staves then drop your only staff
19:51:13 <elliptic> yeah
19:51:13 <alefury> oh, okay
19:51:29 <elliptic> I'm not sure what the best way is of dealing with that sort of thing :(
19:51:41 <kilobyte> no point with training necro before going Kiku
19:51:46 <alefury> if you can train something, switch something on and print a message
19:51:53 <kilobyte> Sif Muna, on the other hand...
19:52:08 <elliptic> kilobyte: huh? much more reason to train necro before kiku than before sif
19:52:21 <elliptic> you don't get piety for training necro if you weren't worshipping sif at the time
19:52:23 <SamB> wait, sif likes you to have already learned stuff ?
19:52:32 <kilobyte> now that you can train spellcasting, the requirement to know a spell is not that needed
19:52:36 <alefury> i think gifts are weighted
19:52:41 <elliptic> yeah, sif requires a memorized spell to worship
19:52:41 <alefury> sif gifts i mean
19:53:10 <elliptic> kilobyte: true, though it is flavorful and keeps new players from choosing a poor god
19:53:15 <kilobyte> elliptic: because you couldn't get any piety otherwise before
19:53:20 <kilobyte> hmm right
19:53:49 <elliptic> kilobyte: yeah, I thought you mean before going sif, since I was talking about before going kiku (so that you can cast stuff in your first gift as soon as you get it)
19:53:53 <alefury> umm, you still cant get sif piety without a spell, right?
19:54:03 <alefury> or does sif reward training spellcasting?
19:54:08 <elliptic> alefury: you can train spellcasting always, so sure
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20:03:41 <alefury> good night
20:03:43 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-2011111804 [Firefox 8.0/20111104165243]]
20:04:11 <Henzell> Palladion the Sorcerer (L27 DsCj) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 445 failed on turn 144232. (Coc:7)
20:04:45 <HangedMan> hmmm, looking at the nutritional labels attached to my food.des vaults, some of their averages seem quite low compared to the suggested 20k of nutrition for normal/herbivore
20:04:54 <HangedMan> do they need more food?
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20:11:38 <Velocijacktor> Alright so I just finished adding a new race to the game
20:11:45 <Velocijacktor> But everytime I press dungeon crawl mode the game just exits
20:11:49 <Velocijacktor> It works on every other mode though
20:12:02 <Velocijacktor> Any suggestions?
20:14:25 <|amethyst> !lm rune=decaying x=avg(xl)
20:14:25 <Sequell> 5 milestones for |amethyst (rune=decaying): avg(xl)=14
20:14:26 <|amethyst> doh
20:14:46 <Cryp71c> Velocijacktor, no experience adding races, you on a windows system?
20:14:56 <Velocijacktor> Yeah I am
20:15:05 <Velocijacktor> I've placed races on top of other races, but never clean added one.
20:15:06 <|amethyst> tiles?
20:15:11 <Velocijacktor> Yeah, tiles.
20:15:15 <|amethyst> run it from a terminal
20:15:18 <Cryp71c> Velocijacktor, are you running the compiled crawl.exe or are you running it from the cmd prompt?
20:15:26 <Velocijacktor> I tried both
20:15:29 <Velocijacktor> One was with msysgit
20:15:32 <Velocijacktor> And the other was the crawl.exe
20:15:36 <|amethyst> then you should get an errror message
20:15:44 <|amethyst> probably some assert failing
20:15:46 <Cryp71c> If you run it from msysgit, the window should remain open with an error message.
20:15:52 <Velocijacktor> It doesn't give me one
20:15:54 <Velocijacktor> That's why I'm confused
20:15:54 <Cryp71c> yeah, its likely an assert on the size of the species enums or something.
20:16:03 <SamB> or from cmd.exe, if it's not tiles
20:16:14 <Cryp71c> Velocijacktor, run it from the cmd prompt (not msysgit)
20:16:15 <Velocijacktor> But that's why it's confusing me. It's working on the other modes.
20:16:51 <Cryp71c> Velocijacktor, so it works when you compile for / run in ascii? You're missing some tile art for your race?
20:16:55 <|amethyst> have you tried a debugger?
20:17:09 <Velocijacktor> No, it's working for dungeon sprint and zot defense in tiles mode.
20:17:10 <|amethyst> he means sprint and zotdef work
20:17:14 <Velocijacktor> But it's not working in crawl mode.
20:17:56 <Cryp71c> Velocijacktor, you can try to use gdb, its included in msysgit, I think...
20:18:10 <Velocijacktor> Yeah I'll give it a shot
20:18:18 <Cryp71c> Open up msysgit, and open up a cmd window prompt, navigate to the location of your crawl.exe in the cmd prompt
20:18:22 <Cryp71c> and type in ./crawl.exe &
20:18:35 <Cryp71c> it should give you [#####], that number is the process id, go back to msysgit and type in
20:18:50 <Cryp71c> gdb -pid #####
20:19:02 <Velocijacktor> So if it's on my desktop what would I type in?
20:19:08 <Cryp71c> If you've done it right, gdb will load and give you quite a few messages about loading symbols from crawl.exe
20:19:24 <Cryp71c> Velocijacktor, the crawl.exe is on your desktop? you on windows 7 or XP?
20:19:37 <Velocijacktor> I got it I got it I got it.
20:19:41 <Velocijacktor> It was a corrupted save.
20:19:46 <Velocijacktor> From when I had the wrong source code
20:20:33 <Velocijacktor> Man that was weird though
20:20:39 <Velocijacktor> It must've just been a compiling error
20:23:11 <Velocijacktor> Nice!
20:23:13 <Velocijacktor> I like this race
20:23:16 <Velocijacktor> It's based on Aztec warriors
20:23:20 <Velocijacktor> I combined Jaguars and Eagles
20:23:58 <HangedMan> so what distinguishes them?
20:24:50 <Velocijacktor> Well I'm trying to figure out a good balance
20:25:03 <Velocijacktor> But I wanted to make them a high invocations race with decent combat skills but very little magic skills
20:25:08 <Velocijacktor> Basically I wanted to make them THE zealot race.
20:25:35 <Velocijacktor> Following actual Aztec tradition... throwing spears, polearms, clubs, small swords, light armor, dodging and necromancy from human sacrifices.
20:25:39 <HangedMan> kind of sounds like a more focused hill orc
20:25:47 <Velocijacktor> Yeah, sort of.
20:25:47 <HangedMan> oh, light armour
20:26:07 <Velocijacktor> And also polearms haha.
20:26:10 <HangedMan> sounds neat, you should make a devwiki page
20:26:10 <Velocijacktor> Aztecs loved spears.
20:26:17 <Velocijacktor> Yeah I think I probably will.
20:26:21 <Velocijacktor> The sprite is real cool looking too.
20:26:48 <Velocijacktor> Because you know the two types of warriors were Eagles and Jaguars. So I made an "Eaguar", it's a jaguar with a beak and tailfeathers and a crest of eagle feathers on the chest.
20:28:29 <Velocijacktor> Another real cool idea I had.
20:28:38 <Velocijacktor> Was a Revenant, that was essentially the "lost souls" of adventurers.
20:28:52 <Velocijacktor> So all you could play was wanderer, but you had all the aspects of undead and you could float over water and you had real high EV.
20:29:49 <HangedMan> a race restricted to one class seems off
20:29:58 <Velocijacktor> I know, that was the problem I had with it.
20:30:03 <Velocijacktor> It was complete luck.
20:32:20 <Velocijacktor> I also did Wood Orcs and Dark Elves
20:33:51 <Velocijacktor> There are way too many elf races though
20:34:00 <Velocijacktor> But Wood Orc is something I would like to go back to and try to polish
20:34:27 <HangedMan> wood orc, the exact opposite of lava orc
20:35:40 <Velocijacktor> ^
20:35:41 <Cryp71c> FR: wood orcs, take DoT in ghenna
20:35:50 <Velocijacktor> Well I wanted a dexterity version of Hill Orcs.
20:36:23 <evilmike> I think merfolk feel similar to hill orcs in this sense.. good hybrids, but focused on ev, and their magic is ice instead of fire
20:36:33 <evilmike> more magic-y than hill orcs though
20:37:06 <Velocijacktor> Yeah, I would agree.
20:37:11 <Velocijacktor> I also wanted to do Elf-Orc
20:37:15 <Velocijacktor> But I didn't like how the aptitudes turned out
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20:38:00 <Velocijacktor> I had an idea for a tiger race too.
20:38:08 <Velocijacktor> I was going to make them warrior-monks.
20:38:11 <Velocijacktor> But I couldn't figure out a broad enough aptitude style.
20:38:28 <evilmike> felids are probably enough :P
20:38:57 <Velocijacktor> Lol
20:39:05 <Velocijacktor> They look nothing like felids
20:39:20 <Velocijacktor> The "Tigris", the species name, sprite is one of my favorite sprites I've ever done.
20:39:25 <evilmike> I just mean in the sense that we already have a playable cat
20:39:33 <Velocijacktor> They're more half-cat half-man.
20:39:36 <Velocijacktor> Then just cats.
20:39:37 <Velocijacktor> Felid are just cats.
20:39:55 <evilmike> note, if you really like the tile, it could be used as a monster
20:40:03 <Velocijacktor> Yeah I know
20:40:07 <Velocijacktor> Just make them Tigris Monks
20:40:23 <evilmike> in fact, I can think of one instance where someone made a really good tile and a monster was created for that
20:40:39 <Velocijacktor> The main problem I had with the tigris, was that quarterstaves are awful for melee.
20:40:42 <Velocijacktor> Are links allowed here?
20:40:45 <evilmike> although, this isn't exactly a normal occurrence
20:40:48 <evilmike> yes
20:41:07 <HangedMan> which monster was that?
20:41:15 <evilmike> hellephant
20:41:18 <HangedMan> hah
20:42:13 <Velocijacktor> The hellephant is so cool looking.
20:42:18 <Velocijacktor> Man I want to stop sucking at crawl haha.
20:42:27 <Velocijacktor> I should stop trying to dev stuff for it and start trying to play it more.
20:42:37 <Velocijacktor> http://imgur.com/a/vIQ5n#0
20:42:44 <Velocijacktor> They're zoomed in a lot so you have to click to see the actual sprite.
20:43:12 <Velocijacktor> It goes from tigris to tigris to eaguar to jaguaris to revenant.
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20:46:48 <CIA-54> 03dolorous * r2060d210c1c0 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Remove unnecessary spacing.
20:48:07 <Velocijacktor> I might find a way to give tigris a damage bonus with quarterstaves
20:48:18 <Velocijacktor> But remove the ability to use any other weapon except thrown and their fists.
20:48:19 <HangedMan> just give them lajatangs
20:48:28 <Velocijacktor> Those are way too rare to be reliable though
20:48:35 <HangedMan> oka! trog!
20:48:42 <Velocijacktor> Still rare lol.
20:48:56 <Velocijacktor> Plus you would still have to fight your way up to (probably) midgame.
20:49:32 <Velocijacktor> The other problem though isn't just damage.
20:49:38 <Velocijacktor> It's the fact that they're all caster stats.
20:50:18 <HangedMan> enhancer staves
20:53:07 <Velocijacktor> What do you mean?
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20:56:25 <CIA-54> 03dolorous * rb8af32b82672 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Tweak wording.
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20:57:47 <evilmike> Velocijacktor: that kind of arbitrary boost/restriction should probably be avoided
20:58:16 <evilmike> crawl already gives you a mechanism to do that sort of thing: aptitudes. if you want to make a race that favours staffs, give them a high staff apt and poor apts for everything else
20:58:28 <Velocijacktor> No but I mean with actual stats on the staves.
20:58:43 <Velocijacktor> Like, even with a high aptitude, the actual staves are still crap for melee.
20:59:00 <evilmike> staves (except for the plan staff weapon) are decent weapons
20:59:14 <evilmike> quarterstaves are good, lajatangs are better
20:59:33 <Velocijacktor> Well I've only run across caster stats
20:59:43 <evilmike> i have no idea what you mean by "caster stats"
20:59:57 <|amethyst> enhancer staves you mean?
21:00:13 <|amethyst> s/enhancer/magical/
21:01:24 <Velocijacktor> Yeah
21:01:32 <Velocijacktor> I mean like, it's always staves of ice or staves of channeling.
21:01:37 <Velocijacktor> It's never like a +3, +4 staff.
21:01:48 <Cryp71c> quarterstaffs is what they used to be
21:01:54 <Cryp71c> ??quarterstaff
21:01:54 <G-Flex> not quite
21:01:54 <Henzell> quarterstaff[1/2]: A fast and accurate stick that you hit things with. Damage: 7. Accuracy: 6. Delay: 120. Double handed. If you use a quarterstaff with a shield, the base damage is halved. Though anyone with a hand-and-a-half weapon, no shield, and unarmed skill can still punch, quarterstaves allow it even if you're a spriggan (for whom QS are two-handed).
21:02:00 <G-Flex> enhancer staves weren't double-handed
21:02:07 <G-Flex> quarterstaves are and were
21:02:09 <Cryp71c> right
21:02:19 <Velocijacktor> So does that mean they can be viable for melee?
21:02:19 <CIA-54> 03dolorous * r528468f73951 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Add preliminary description for spriggan bakers.
21:02:24 <G-Flex> FR: a different name for the base "staff" weapon to avoid confusion
21:02:27 <G-Flex> "cane" or "walking stick" or something
21:02:45 <evilmike> quarterstaff is a viable early-mid game weapon
21:02:52 <Velocijacktor> That's the problem
21:02:57 <Velocijacktor> I'm trying to design the species all around
21:03:12 <|amethyst> "hanbo" ?
21:03:21 <evilmike> lajatang is the upgrade, that's the top-tier staff weapon
21:03:40 <Velocijacktor> Aren't they ridiculously hard to get?
21:03:40 <evilmike> also, note that a quarterstaff is base damage *10* in trunk, not 7. this is a pretty big deal
21:03:45 <Velocijacktor> Oh shoot
21:03:46 <G-Flex> is there a point to staves being double-handed? does anyone actually use a quarterstaff or lajatang with a shield?
21:03:47 <Velocijacktor> I didn't see that
21:03:54 <|amethyst> ??quarterstaff[2]
21:03:54 <Henzell> quarterstaff[2/2]: 10/3/130 in trunk.
21:03:54 <G-Flex> evilmike: did delay go up?
21:03:54 <Eronarn> why are you trying to design a species around a specific weapon
21:03:56 <Eronarn> don't do that
21:04:02 <G-Flex> yeah that's a terrible idea
21:04:04 <G-Flex> ??quarterstaff
21:04:05 <Henzell> quarterstaff[1/2]: A fast and accurate stick that you hit things with. Damage: 7. Accuracy: 6. Delay: 120. Double handed. If you use a quarterstaff with a shield, the base damage is halved. Though anyone with a hand-and-a-half weapon, no shield, and unarmed skill can still punch, quarterstaves allow it even if you're a spriggan (for whom QS are two-handed).
21:04:05 <Velocijacktor> I'm not
21:04:07 <evilmike> 130 is good
21:04:13 <Velocijacktor> It's one of the two or three weapons that I'm designing it around
21:04:20 <G-Flex> okay, delay went up by 10 but damage by 3, that's pretty significant. 3 less acc bonus but who cares
21:04:23 <Velocijacktor> I'm trying to keep it to chinese martial arts weapons.
21:04:25 <G-Flex> Velocijacktor: that's almost as bad
21:04:25 <Eronarn> okay you missed the point of that entirely
21:04:32 <G-Flex> hint: chinese martial arts used swords
21:04:37 <G-Flex> and other things!
21:04:37 <evilmike> the quarterstaff change also makes priests have one of the best starting weapons :P
21:04:40 <G-Flex> because they weren't stupid
21:04:41 <Velocijacktor> Short swords, not long swords
21:04:47 <G-Flex> define "short sword"
21:04:50 <G-Flex> there were some really big chinese swords
21:04:54 <Eronarn> also spears
21:04:57 <Eronarn> also polearms
21:05:03 <Velocijacktor> Spears are polearms lol
21:05:04 <G-Flex> also anything else real people would use, because they wanted to win
21:05:08 <Velocijacktor> There were very few chinese swords though
21:05:11 <HangedMan> no axes, at least
21:05:18 <Velocijacktor> There were no maces and no axes
21:05:23 <G-Flex> Velocijacktor: I doubt they had "no maces"
21:05:33 <G-Flex> also: swords are overrepresented in western-themed fantasy as well
21:05:56 <Eronarn> no axes is pretty common historically also
21:06:07 <Velocijacktor> At any rate
21:06:10 <G-Flex> I doubt many axes were really used in combat anywhere
21:06:20 <G-Flex> except when necessary because they were a tool at hand or whatever
21:06:21 <Velocijacktor> I think I'm scrapping the tigris idea anyway because of all the beast races that have come out recently.
21:06:30 <Eronarn> G-Flex: there are a few... but not many
21:06:33 <Velocijacktor> I really would like to do the Dark Elves, but there are way too many elves already.
21:06:40 <G-Flex> of course if you're going for hollywood-style "martial arts" then you're right I suppose
21:06:55 <G-Flex> Velocijacktor: I would advise against creating any race that has associations with prior, especially recent, popular fantasy
21:06:55 <Velocijacktor> I'm thinking about doing Wood Orcs, but that would require a lot of lore-stretching.
21:07:07 <G-Flex> or D&D
21:07:08 <Eronarn> i would advise against creating any race
21:07:19 <Eronarn> you clearly haven't thought about what a race is supposed to add to the game
21:07:21 <Velocijacktor> It's not like I'm submitting it lol
21:07:29 <Velocijacktor> I'm doing it to practice coding and also for fun
21:07:30 <Eronarn> oh, go nuts then
21:07:40 <G-Flex> make an elephant race
21:07:44 <G-Flex> with an extra ring slot on the trunk
21:07:53 <Velocijacktor> A race is supposed to add a different approach to the game that isn't already there.
21:07:54 <evilmike> I think pole-axes were fairly widly used in warfare
21:07:54 <Velocijacktor> I know that.
21:07:57 <Velocijacktor> I'm not trying to do that.
21:08:04 <G-Flex> evilmike: like halberds and things? sure
21:08:22 <Velocijacktor> I really want to work on my own roguelike, but roguelikes are huge projects, at least one of a decent calibur.
21:08:27 <|amethyst> evilmike:  poleaxes aren't axes in crawl though :)
21:08:46 <G-Flex> there are a few axe-polearms
21:08:47 <Eronarn> evilmike: yes but you don't wield them like axes at all
21:08:48 <evilmike> crawl does have halberds, those are basically axe+spears
21:08:54 <mikee_> crawl has lochaber axes
21:08:55 <|amethyst> and bardiches
21:09:01 <Eronarn> lots of choppy polearms exist
21:09:06 <G-Flex> yep
21:09:16 <Eronarn> Velocijacktor: roguelikes aren't huge projects
21:09:19 <Eronarn> go make a 7DRL or something
21:09:27 <Velocijacktor> I mean decent sized ones.
21:09:31 <Velocijacktor> All the 7DRL's are pretty small
21:09:43 <Velocijacktor> I have an idea for a leveling system that would take a while, at least if I wanted it to be well rounded.
21:10:49 <SamB> 7D? 3D would be hard enough!
21:11:12 <Velocijacktor> ^ha
21:11:24 <|amethyst> SamB:  well, five of the dimensions are rolled up really small...
21:11:28 <Velocijacktor> I want to approach a more classical styled talent system
21:11:49 <Velocijacktor> And I would make the game more skill based (think WoW, LOTRO, NWN2...) meaning actually pressing skill buttons, then auto-attacking and tactics.
21:11:53 <Velocijacktor> More like a full on hack n slash.
21:12:00 <Velocijacktor> But still with the roguelike formula.
21:13:22 <G-Flex> I don't know that WoW design principles would transfer very well
21:13:28 <G-Flex> to a turn-based tile-based game
21:13:34 <Velocijacktor> It's not literal WoW principles lol.
21:13:38 <Velocijacktor> I don't know how to explain it clearly.
21:13:51 <Velocijacktor> I guess I'm trying to make a faster paced roguelike.
21:13:56 <HangedMan> spelunky and the binding of issac come to mind for such
21:14:09 <Velocijacktor> Binding of Isaac was a huge letdown for me.
21:14:31 <Velocijacktor> Dang new Total War clan packs.
21:14:32 <Velocijacktor> MUST BUY.
21:14:37 <G-Flex> crawl is already pretty fast-paced in the sense in which a turn-based game can be
21:14:50 <G-Flex> messing up a single turn can cost you your life pretty easily
21:15:13 <Velocijacktor> I suppose
21:15:21 <Velocijacktor> I really need to get back into Unity designing.
21:15:26 <|amethyst> doesn't that mean you should play slowly, then?
21:15:28 <Velocijacktor> C++ is horrid to code in compared to how easy it is.
21:15:29 <G-Flex> depends on what you mean by "fast-paced" I guess
21:16:09 <G-Flex> |amethyst: yeah, in my mind right now "fast paced" could mean either "every little thing counts so gameplay is very volatile" or "you can play it without taking much time to think between actions"
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21:16:21 <Velocijacktor> I would say the latter.
21:16:23 <Velocijacktor> But I don't want it to be mindless.
21:16:46 <Velocijacktor> Same thing with some hack n slashes like Torchlight.
21:16:49 <Velocijacktor> Like when World of Warcraft was still a game, you had to think about what you were doing but it was still pretty fast.
21:18:47 <G-Flex> it also wasn't turn-based
21:18:54 <Velocijacktor> I know
21:19:03 <Velocijacktor> that's the challenge in mixing in the RL formula.
21:20:45 <Velocijacktor> Card games are a really great way to work on game design skills
21:20:48 <Velocijacktor> I should probably do that, too.
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21:23:02 <Ashenzari> Capitalization error in description of monsters' wielded weapons (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4987) by dolorous
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21:40:27 <SamB> FR: do better animation for returning
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21:45:13 <HangedMan> then the missile going to hit dude, then flying back to you?
21:45:23 <HangedMan> what more do you want, dramatic zooms and slow motion abuse
21:46:04 <SamB> *curves*
22:02:57 <SamB> ??returning
22:02:58 <Henzell> returning[1/2]: A brand that makes the weapon return to its owner's hand when thrown.  It is not guaranteed to work, and requires some Throwing skill to work at all; 3 levels gives a failure chance of 14%, while 27 gives 3%. When thrown by an enemy, fails to return something like 1 time in (HD+3). Based on some quick testing, Portaled Projectiles will not return.
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23:33:39 <SamB> well this looks kind of dumb:
23:33:46 <SamB> You draw a card... It is the Sage. You feel studious about Invocations.
23:35:41 <evilmike> usually sage cards are slightly helpful. and sometimes that happens.
23:36:05 <evilmike> the best thing you can do is draw sage again. the #1 use for sage cards is to counter other sage cards
23:37:09 <SamB> but, I mean, why would Nemelex's cards do that?
23:37:35 <SamB> it's like if trog gave you a spellbook, only even *less* useful
23:38:35 <evilmike> cards effects can range from extremely useful, to questionable, to pretty much the worst thing possible
23:38:53 <evilmike> for example, on my last nemelexite i got a trog wrath card while clearing zot 5, and had to deal with being surrounded by berserk giants
23:39:09 <evilmike> on the same game, i got a fire giant summoned on like d:3
23:40:02 <SamB> couldn't we do bogus skills like "interior decorating" instead ?
23:41:07 <SamB> (not that we should have such things as actual skills, just that that would be a more amusing kind of dud ...)
23:41:23 <elliptic> I do think that sage cards need to be rethought given the current skill system
23:41:59 <elliptic> they used to be much more exciting, when skills were harder to train
23:42:32 <evilmike> most of the sage effects I got on my last nemelex game were skills I actually wanted, so it was still kind of useful (due to the xp bonus)
23:44:17 <elliptic> the xp bonus part of it just duplicates experience card
23:45:01 <elliptic> (except far less good unless you are clearing a zig or something)
23:45:20 <elliptic> it also isn't good that you can rest off sage
23:45:30 <evilmike> maybe treat it more like a manual?
23:45:44 <evilmike> yeah resting off Sage is really bad
23:47:04 <elliptic> yeah, making sage work for a given amount of xp instead of a given amount of turns would be good
23:48:17 <elliptic> one thing that might make them more interesting is if the xp bonus is increased to be more significant, but the skill is weighted towards ones you have low skill in
23:48:42 <elliptic> the idea being to encourage you to branch out based on what sage you have
23:48:48 <elliptic> not sure whether this would really work though
23:48:57 <SamB> elliptic: would it at least pick ones that are trainable ?
23:49:33 <evilmike> picking ones that are trainable would be bad... the optimal strategy would be to make as many unwanted skills untrainable before drawing sage
23:49:52 <evilmike> err, I mean *only* picking ones that are trainable
23:49:53 <SamB> or, well, train them anyway ?
23:49:57 <elliptic> yeah, I was thinking that it shouldn't depend on trainability, but rather some measure of not being useless
23:50:11 <elliptic> like, no invocations with non invoc gods, no spell skills with trog
23:50:35 <SamB> I thought decks were a Nemelex thing
23:50:39 <SamB> how else can you get Sage ?
23:50:52 <elliptic> non-nemelex chars can find decks and draw from them too
23:50:53 <|amethyst> you can find decks lying around
23:51:04 <SamB> a *few*, I guess ...
23:51:20 <|amethyst> usually there are at least a few in elf:5 for example
23:51:23 <SamB> oh
23:51:24 <elliptic> they are mainly a nemelex thing, but there has been some movement towards making that a little less exclusive
23:51:27 <|amethyst> just by chance
23:51:27 * SamB doesn't get that far
23:51:35 <elliptic> by which I mean that you can identify them to learn the top card
23:51:45 <SamB> I mostly find them on Nemelex altars
23:51:45 <elliptic> (and then draw that card and repeat)
23:53:41 <evilmike> nemelex altars would be the most common early source of decks (it's an overflow vault, iirc)
23:54:00 <evilmike> but when you get to deeper levels, you tend to find decks, particularly as loot in vaults
23:55:02 <Henzell> nuc the Cutthroat (L12 SpEn) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 445 failed on turn 2517. (D)
23:55:17 <evilmike> I dont really know how the game chooses what a good item is (it thinks a box of beasts is good loot), but legendary decks fall under that from what I can tell
23:56:40 <elliptic> misc items in general are a bit over-represented in vault loot, possibly
23:56:48 <elliptic> or alternatively under-represented in the rest of the game
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