00:03:25 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2068-g0a7db92 (32) 00:03:59 bmh: its in the other room, other than needing a new cmos battery its fine. :P 00:10:22 Textmode: Once I had a motherboard with a defective manual. The manual said to reset the BIOS settings by shorting a jumper. Shorting said jumper instead burned out the traces to the CMOS battery. 00:10:35 ouch... 00:10:37 To their credit, ASUS gave me a new one. 00:10:48 hell of a mistake... 00:11:37 They meant to write "remove the battery, then short the jumper" 00:12:36 http://www.a7vtroubleshooting.com/ 00:13:57 (I wish I'd found that website before I cooked that board. That must have been about 10 years ago!) 00:14:43 -!- Zaba has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:15:01 I used a 286 when I was rather little 00:19:07 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2068-g0a7db92 00:26:47 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 00:37:02 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39:25 -!- cosh has joined ##crawl-dev 00:42:40 -!- Guest33522 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:44:26 -!- Guest33522 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:45:21 -!- cosh has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The professional IRC Client :D] 00:53:04 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:01:57 -!- cosh has joined ##crawl-dev 01:06:08 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 01:08:21 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 01:26:20 03evilmike * re6f3042b21d2 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/evilmike_ambush.des: A very random ambush vault. 01:27:38 evilmike: I was thinking of rolling a vault with a pressure plate. Stepping on it converts some floor tiles into deep water or lava in a spiral pattern. Is that too lame? 01:28:06 I wouldn't call that lame 01:28:29 I don't think it's particularly spoily. It is no direct threat to the player (apart from fragging summons/followers) 01:29:14 I think it would be better if it actually did something more than just spawn water/lava 01:29:42 lava snakes? 01:29:55 yeah, something like that 01:30:03 salamanders, if deep enough 01:31:08 sounds harsh. 01:31:49 Is the dev team only opposed to repeatable traps? 01:34:01 I don't think there's any sort of policy... a good guideline is to use allow_dup only if the vault is random enough that it will be completely different if you get it more than once 01:35:22 For trap vaults, I think they all use allow_dup 01:35:59 actually no, not all, just most 01:36:08 -!- Zaba has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:36:46 is travel_delay (& explore_delay?) being ignored currently? autoexplore is slow as hell 01:38:03 mmhh nvm 01:38:21 evilmike: I mean mundane traps. Axe traps are lame because they hit more than once 01:39:39 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:42:07 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 01:42:58 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 01:43:03 cosh: and you checked the CPU is not pegged? 01:44:17 it's strange. it worked just yesterday, but looking at the source everything seems fine 01:44:30 -1 works 'instant' tho...as it should 01:44:44 but when I set it to 1 it feels more like ~20, which is the default I guess 01:46:31 you didn't upgrade your kernel or anything did you ? 01:47:35 well I didn't. Valor (who owns the server) might have, but actually I don't think so 01:55:04 -!- evilmike has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:55:49 wow nvm, has to be my really bad client here 02:01:18 -!- jooosa has joined ##crawl-dev 02:04:16 -!- joosa has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:16:58 -!- syllogism- has joined ##crawl-dev 03:23:08 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:41:01 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:54:35 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 03:55:21 -!- blabber_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:57:30 -!- blabber has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:08:37 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:23:32 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:29:41 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Wibbly Wobbly IRC] 04:36:54 -!- Zaba has quit [Quit: nblr] 04:37:34 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:56:31 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:00:06 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2069-ge6f3042 05:06:27 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:08:09 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 05:35:45 -!- blabber_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:43:33 -!- dondy has joined ##crawl-dev 05:58:11 -!- cosh has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:01:05 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 06:16:31 -!- cosh has joined ##crawl-dev 06:25:44 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 06:47:30 -!- the_glow has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:48:48 -!- the_glow has joined ##crawl-dev 06:58:06 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 07:01:05 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 07:02:34 -!- prono has joined ##crawl-dev 07:05:57 Hi. At crawl.akrasiac.org my dev version save game is corrupted. Who can delete it so I can start again ? 07:07:03 you can delete it yourself, I think 07:07:20 under advanced options 07:08:24 it doesn't work any more 07:08:32 i tried 07:11:16 prono: from the login menu? 07:12:29 you can try bothering rax_ 07:12:39 no idea who else has access to cao 07:19:36 -!- jooosa is now known as joosa 07:45:18 -!- Cryp71c_ is now known as Cryp71c 07:45:37 Morning 07:45:51 ??greensnark 07:45:51 greensnark[1/5]: Doesn't wear pants. 07:45:57 ??greensnark[2] 07:45:57 greensnark[2/5]: One of the few people who can spell those unpronounceable demons without a crib sheet. 07:46:05 ??devtream 07:46:05 I don't have a page labeled devtream in my learndb. 07:46:07 ??devteam 07:46:08 devteam[1/2]: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:help:devteam 07:46:43 yeah, rax or napkin, not sure if napkin has access to CAO or not. 07:46:54 dpeg, morning! let me know when you're in 07:47:10 one "new abyss" odditiy: water and lava monsters are placed in the starting area after getting banished (the part loosely based on the level you were on when you were banished), but not in the rest of the abyss. probably not intended? 07:47:30 what's wrong? 07:47:49 Napkin, do you have access to CAO? prono has a corrupted trunk save that won't delete via the advanced options. 07:49:12 char prono in trunk? 07:50:25 hypergreepish the Summoner (L10 SESu) (Lair:2) 07:53:17 deleted 07:54:50 nothing solves problems like a pwipe 07:56:18 Oh hey sorry I just woke up. Thanks, Napkin! 07:56:44 -!- rax_ is now known as rax 07:56:47 hmm, seems like the deletion-script is broken - probably the reason it's commented out for trunk 07:56:54 oh, hey rax, good morning :) 07:57:07 Morning :) 07:58:24 ah, the script is missing 07:59:29 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:08:47 water in abyss starting area populated with aquatic creatures (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4925) by Galefury 08:16:36 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:24:34 -!- |amethys1 is now known as |amethyst 08:33:49 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:48:18 -!- cosh has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- IRC with a difference] 08:48:28 kilobyte, there, the Crazy Yiuf (and another arena-detected) bug have been fixed. 08:48:38 (As well as a couple other things) 08:48:46 So with that done, I think UCC is ready to merge 08:49:12 Cryp71c: congrats! :) 08:49:18 Cryp71c: :) 08:49:20 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 08:50:31 There's still lots of refactoring to be done, don't get me wrong..but 1) most of it won't affect how the new code operates, 2) Merging in the branch will bring in some other useful changes (like removing NOCAP and CAP), and 3) most of the refactoring that's left is somewhat dependant on a true unification of player/monster combat. 08:51:11 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * r05ad5fe5c116 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Move / Remove extra randart_effect triggering code 08:51:11 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * rad83a7047b53 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Update SPWPN_VAMPIRICISM code 08:51:12 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * re1dcbbafa2eb 10/crawl-ref/ (193 files in 23 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into unified_combat_control 08:51:12 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * r48b562fa0bb7 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Merge branch 'unified_combat_control' of gitorious.org:crawl/crawl into unified_combat_control 08:51:12 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * r06f3895bacfc 10/crawl-ref/ (192 files in 26 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into unified_combat_control 08:51:13 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * r4b1c65e08973 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Fix arena crash-indicated bugs 08:51:13 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * r2b3061c3824a 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Fix player_aux_unarmed related combat 08:51:13 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * re4c48d780ed1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (melee_attack.cc melee_attack.h): Update foul stench effect and calling location 08:51:24 !coffee Cryp71c 08:51:26 * Henzell hands Cryp71c a cup of black coffee, brewed by Trog. 09:05:07 :) 09:05:11 * elly got married yesterday 09:07:06 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:08:37 congratulations in here :) 09:10:13 thank you for helping with savegame 09:10:26 -!- prono has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:11:28 elly: condolences :p 09:11:56 I think you mean congratulations, kilobyte :P 09:14:55 I see they didn't tell you all the details yet 09:15:23 seriously though: let's wish you don't see THOSE details but only the good ones :) 09:17:41 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:18:15 03kilobyte * r74be35c0377d 10/crawl-ref/ (settings/runrest_messages.txt source/traps.cc): Don't stop travel or exploration on webs. 09:18:17 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:18:57 dpeg, sorry, my xchat crashed. 09:19:30 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:19:31 So, yeah unless anyone has any opinions otherwise, I'm content with merging ucc in. 09:19:47 <|amethyst> elly: Congrats. When I got married two years ago they didn't tell my wife that the name change was automatic. She wanted to keep her surname, so she had to go before a judge to have it changed back. 09:19:52 what about simply using the branch without merging for a while? 09:20:09 if its stable enough i suppose thats not needed, but it seems like the best of both worlds 09:20:12 <|amethyst> elly: that's my only experience so far with those details they don't tell you, so I'm sure you'll be fine :) 09:20:13 elly, indeed, congrats! 09:20:46 is ucc just an internal code thing or does it have gameplay ramifications 09:20:53 nobody knows :) 09:20:55 alefury, kilo did quite a bit of Arena testing, which I've followed up with even more arena testing...there is likely to be some nuances in the code, but crashes should be minimal, if not non-existant. 09:20:57 supposedly it doesnt 09:21:23 G-Flex, mostly internal, some unintended (but unavoidable) gameplay ramifications. All gameplay changes are pretty miniscule though, nothing that a player will notice on a single playthrough 09:21:38 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 09:21:49 Though on a grand scale, players may begin to notice that melee-combat is a little different. 09:21:56 Some combat messages are in a more logical order 09:22:06 can you make a list or something? of non-cosmetic things? 09:22:10 |amethyst: we changed our names explicitly :) 09:22:27 alefury, how do you mean, like a list of gameplay changes that resulted from the ucc merge? 09:22:34 yeah, might be nice to have 09:22:35 ucc changes* 09:23:00 alefury, I could give a general write-up, but it would be VERY general...fight was in such a condition that I more or less tore it apart and put it back together again. 09:23:03 especially because there is no good way to find those, you would need to be familiar with both the old and new combat code 09:23:24 I'll write up some general stuff, though..sure. 09:23:52 a dev blog or tavern post about the change would be nice, to encourage people to file bug reports and stuff 09:24:20 and actually listing the changes that are not bugs in a general way would help a lot wit hthat 09:28:16 -!- cosh has joined ##crawl-dev 09:33:30 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 09:34:12 -!- ais523_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:43:56 elly: awesome! 09:46:41 Which god doesn't like dishonorable attacks? 09:46:58 <|amethyst> TSO 09:49:34 Alrighty, for anyone interested in it, or if dpeg or whomever controls the wordpress blog(s) wants to use it, here's a general list of things to be mindful of during testing: List of significant changes for the Unified Combat Control branch: 09:49:34 1) Capitalization of words is performed automatic (done by Kilobyte, altered by SamB) 09:49:34 - Instead of passing an explicit capitalization (NOCAP or CAP) to the mprf system, mprf determines automatically whether capitalization is necessary. 09:49:35 2) Fight rewrite 09:49:37 - Restructuring of combat into phases 09:49:39 * Attempted 09:49:41 -> Hit 09:49:43 -> Damaged 09:49:47 -> Defender Killed 09:49:49 -> Dodged 09:49:51 -> Blocked 09:49:53 * End 09:49:55 3) Merging of player / monster codepaths 09:49:57 - This comprises the bulk of the rewrite and will be subject for continued (numerous) changes in the future. Some codepaths are not entirely unified because doing so would require symmetry between players and monsters in regards to how a particular effect is handled (weapon brands, spells, etc. etc.) 09:50:05 List of things for players to be aware or mindful of for bug-reporting purposes 09:50:07 1) Out-of-order combat messages (especially as they relate to weapon brands) 09:50:09 2) Combat messages which leak otherwise unknown information 09:50:11 3) Unusual sanctuary behavior 09:50:13 4) Unusual messages or behavior on the last turn of combat (when the monster is killed) 09:50:17 5) Brands, spell effects, or mutations which consistently do not result in a noticable effect 09:50:19 6) Weapon effects or behavior which do not appropriately result in god-affects 09:50:21 * Examples include using speed weapons with Chei, attacking dishonorably while worshiping TSO 09:50:23 7) Capitalization errors in combat text 09:50:25 8) Missing combat effects (from uniques or from specific player-races) 09:50:27 * Examples include vampire-specific effects for players, or Maurice's "theiving" attacks 09:50:33 ...omg... 09:50:35 TOTALLY MEANT to paste the link I had on my clipboard, instead of the raw text... 09:50:37 http://pastebin.com/gWj0pdh5 09:50:39 * Cryp71c is now super-spammer. 09:52:45 heh. nice writeup. :) 09:54:17 kilobyte, dpeg, so if no other objections exist, I'll merge ucc in sometime today. 10:01:33 Cryp71c: good! 10:01:52 Cryp71c: can you send me that list by email? 10:03:17 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:03:29 dpeg, its on pastebin: http://pastebin.com/gWj0pdh5 10:16:15 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:16:24 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 10:16:36 Cryp71c: many thanks (lost connection, the last thing I got was the pastebin link) 10:17:42 dpeg, yep that's the last thing I sent 10:34:28 -!- kilobyte has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:36:51 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 10:41:23 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 11:04:11 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 11:09:49 -!- kilobyte has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:10:52 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 11:19:14 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:19:38 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110929064733]] 11:27:58 OK, so I'm going to try to tackle constriction, if only for something to do on my vacation... couple of significant questions 11:28:13 yes? 11:28:22 blueDave, before you leave on your vacation, please pull the merge I'm about to commit here in the next little bit. 11:28:26 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:28:42 looks like a "constricted" state would have to be maintained -- add that to player? does that break saves? 11:29:06 Cryp71c -- oh, so ucc is about ready to go in' 11:29:12 yes, don't want to have a huge merge :D 11:29:27 blueDave: yes. Monsters and players need a "constricted by [foo]" state (so more than a bit). For simplicity, anyone can be constricted by at most one thing. 11:29:47 yes, understood that from the wiki 11:29:49 Saves are of no concern, as far as I can see. 11:30:05 I'm starting with 'easy' stuff like changing the names of the snakes 11:30:12 yes 11:30:27 ~30 files changed! didn't expect that lol 11:31:23 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:31:29 blueDave, yes, ucc is about to go in, I've 1 conflict to fix, then its going up. 11:31:39 ...once my boss walks away... 11:35:25 back later 11:37:29 When you return, ucc will be in! 11:37:30 muwahahaha 11:37:41 should the enums be changed, or is changing the mon-data.h and monsters.txt enough? 11:37:50 re: snakes 11:39:06 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:45:13 Checking compiling now 11:52:44 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 11:53:35 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:54:25 It has begun.... 11:56:25 03Cryp71c * rc7ddbe0fddd0 10/crawl-ref/ (143 files in 22 dirs): Merge remote branch 'origin/master' into unified_combat_control 11:56:40 blueDave, perform a pull now 11:57:20 kilobyte, hopefully I have everything right w/ git and the history so I've not buggered anything up. 12:00:18 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 12:01:03 back -- and UCC is in :) 12:04:16 I'll delete the branch here in a short while. 12:04:32 ( a week or so, I mean) 12:04:59 nice 12:05:31 -!- varsovie has joined ##crawl-dev 12:07:11 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:08:42 evilmike: thanks for looking into the Abyss vaults 12:10:14 dpeg: no problem. I also went and added a couple of others. There are still a couple of vaults on mantis but one set is for the spider branch, and another has some weird stuff like a friendly spectral kraken 12:10:40 pulled, building 12:11:45 some compiler warnings flew by... 12:12:20 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:13:05 melee_attack.cc: In member function 'int melee_attack::player_apply_weapon_bonus 12:13:05 es(int)': 12:13:05 melee_attack.cc:1556: warning: unused variable 'orig_damage' 12:13:05 melee_attack.cc: In member function 'virtual int melee_attack::calc_to_hit(bool) 12:13:05 ': 12:13:06 melee_attack.cc:3390: warning: unused variable 'base_hit' 12:13:06 melee_attack.cc: In member function 'int melee_attack::calc_damage()': 12:13:07 melee_attack.cc:4843: warning: unused variable 'orig_damage' 12:13:33 not important, just fyi 12:18:17 Things that are here: 12:18:17 _An orcish club; A hobgoblin corpse 12:18:25 do we actually want this capitalization 12:20:56 -!- SamB_XP has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:21:17 -!- SamB__ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:21:22 -!- SamB_XP has joined ##crawl-dev 12:22:39 elliptic, If not, either kilobyte or Samb would need to look at the auto-capitalization stuff. 12:23:04 IMO, that sort of capitalization is fine with me (its worth the tradeoff of getting rid of the CAP/NOCAP stuff. 12:23:26 cryp71c: uh, you seem to have changed quite a lot of things about minotaur retaliation :/ 12:23:38 blueDave, yeah, those warnings are if you don't build debug, they were part of an initiative to remove #IFDEF DEBUG_DIAGNOSTIC stuff and using dprf instead 12:24:01 elliptic, I didn't intend to, I don't believe...it was fairly recently merged into UCC, what's different? 12:24:01 -!- SamB_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:24:19 well you don't have any of the recent bugfixes to it 12:24:39 like, making it not work in forms or while paralyzed and such 12:25:14 elliptic, that's wierd, I merged in and have always been careful during my fight conflict resolutions, I'm not sure how I would've missed (what must certainly be a fair number of changes) 12:25:25 it isn't a big deal, I'll add in the stuff 12:25:28 Thanks 12:26:07 -!- varsovie has left ##crawl-dev 12:26:15 one commit mentions that Mi now gets a retaliation for each attack rather than one per monster 12:26:25 also, could you explain how you changed things with that, yes 12:26:33 what is effective_attack_number? 12:27:16 elliptic, effective_attack_number is only pertinent for monster attacks, and represents the number of the attack that we're on (in the sequence) 12:27:42 So, each attack that a monster gets has its own instantiation of melee_attack and will run through the phases accordingly. 12:28:07 Instead of handling multiple attacks INSIDE the same attack instantiation 12:28:09 okay, so currently you have the normal chance of retaliating if you dodge the first attack, 1/2 that if you dodge the second attack, and so on? 12:28:43 elliptic, correct, that's an issue I needed to raise with you since - at present - there isn't a way to check whether you've already retaliated in the previous sequences of attacks. 12:29:20 This lends to the ability to retaliate multiple attacks in the same turn, but makes it increasingly unlikely to do so. 12:30:15 -!- test has joined ##crawl-dev 12:30:25 weren't there other effects that behaved like that though? 12:30:31 specifically, shields 12:30:54 once you've blocked one attack, later ones that round are harder to block, or something like that 12:30:56 they have the exponential decay for chances, I think 12:31:09 ah, you are right 12:31:14 Not that I ran across and remember, blocking was delt with on an attack-by-attack basis 12:31:31 But I could be mistaken, that was one of the first things I moved to the new system, months ago...so my memory may simply be wrong. 12:31:56 I would like to think that I'd remember such a large change though, since that significantly affects shield balance. 12:33:13 shields definitely had some effect like that which made them less good against multiple enemies attacking you in a single round 12:33:42 elliptic: yes. Was realistic but bad in its own way: more force to get you into the corridor. 12:33:59 (not saying we should change it ad-hoc) 12:34:17 hm, what is the easiest way of seeing what fight.cc looked like before the merge? 12:39:55 elliptic, git checkout 74be35c -- fight.cc 12:39:56 I think 12:40:51 thanks 12:42:52 -!- Guest33522 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:43:36 cryp71c: your merge seems to be missing other changes to fight.cc too 12:43:43 this is sort of bad 12:44:05 35db85f, for instance 12:45:10 are you sure you were merging up-to-date stuff? 12:45:11 -!- Guest33522 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:45:48 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:46:13 elliptic, yeah, I'm certain. Something funny has happened though, I explicitly remember merging in the changes in that sha1 12:46:17 also, why does this merge seem to be changing completely non-combat-related stuff? 12:46:30 elliptic, like the CAP / NOCAP stuff ? 12:46:33 or something else? 12:47:40 oh, never mind 12:48:59 guess I'll start digging through the fight changes cross-referencing changes that didn't get made in UCC in case others were missed. 12:49:02 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:50:06 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 12:51:11 -!- varsovie has joined ##crawl-dev 12:55:34 cryp71c: okay, shield stuff is handled by you.shield_blocks, which is probably still working 12:56:49 -!- test has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:58:04 monsters don't get the penalty currently I believe... possibly they should (it would be a slight mennas nerf, at least), but I'm not sure how easy that would be to set up 12:59:18 about minotaur retaliation, I'll just tweak the formula a bit 12:59:37 BTW looks like 35db85f removes the last instance of calc_stat_to_dam_base, so in this commit I've got, I went ahead and removed the method declaration as well. 13:00:31 cryp71c: oh ugh I figured out what happened 13:00:36 ? 13:00:48 you applied the player_aux_stat_modify_damage() change to player_stat_modify_damage() instead 13:01:09 player_stat_modify_damage should use calc_stat_to_dam_base() 13:01:34 ah...yeah...that'd be it...carelessness it would seem. 13:01:46 probably calc_stat_to_dam_base should be renamed to calc_weapon_stat_to_dam_base or something, to be less confusing 13:02:04 k, I'll fix that. 13:02:18 03evilmike * r4abe2e938cda 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/evilmike_ambush.des: A bunch of tweaks to evilmike_ambush. 13:02:22 though I guess it is used for regular unarmed too, so maybe not 13:03:35 is there an easy way to tell whether you are currently doing an unarmed aux attack? since things would be simpler if there were (player_aux_stat_modify_damage() could use calc_stat_to_dam_base() also) 13:04:06 elliptic, player aux attacks are still handled separately in their own functions. 13:04:10 the issue is that currently calc_stat_to_dam_base looks at your wielded weapon 13:04:20 They're still an oddity compared to the equivilent monster code. 13:04:26 (well, as near-equivilent as there exists, anyways) 13:06:52 elliptic, player_aux_unarmed is the starting method for all player aux combat. 13:07:01 It handles its own looping and the calling of all other methods. 13:07:12 (that are related to player aux attacks, that is) 13:08:12 03Cryp71c * r42679b0a0f52 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Correct the application of 35db85f 13:09:25 anyway, looks to me like the only issues in UCC with any of my recent commits were the 35db85f thing and minotaur stuff (which I'll fix) :) 13:12:34 Hi, I'm currently tweaking some monsters. I would like to know if I can put more than one flavor per attack? like {at_tail_slap, af_reach, af_poison, 20} or should it be easier tweaking a spell? 13:12:39 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:13:42 elliptic, thats very good to hear :) started to panic with thoughts of "oh god, going to have to track down last 4 months worth of fight changes to see what I've buggered up" 13:14:02 varsovie, nope, 1 attack flavour per attack, however monsters CAN have multiple attacks, each attack with its own flavour. 13:14:21 at least, I'm pretty sure its 1 AF / attack. 13:14:26 @??ghost moth 13:14:26 ghost moth (06y) | Speed: 12 | HD: 13 | Health: 55-94 | AC/EV: 16/10 | Damage: 1805(drain dexterity), 1805(drain strength), 1204(strong poison) | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(104), 02cold, 03poison | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 3460. 13:14:28 yeah 13:14:38 yeah, I think it was just that one thing, and probably the minotaur stuff got confused because do_minotaur_retaliation got renamed and moved to melee_attack.cc 13:15:25 elliptic, yeah, trying - in general - to avoid mons/player specific prefixes, since - especially for mutations - mons_ as a prefix was both innacurate and incongrent with this movement towards monster/player symmetry. 13:16:17 right, I only put the mons_ there to be consistent with spines 13:16:20 Also, you'll notice that ucc uses dprf instead of #ifdef debug_diagnostic for debug messages, which is much cleaner (IMO) than previously..however this results (as you may notice) in warnings of unused variables when you build a non-debug build. 13:16:37 elliptic, yeah, which I did to be consistent with some other mutation or effect, I think...lol, daisy-chaining the bad naming conventions 13:17:21 What are your feelings in dprf (with warnings) vs (nasty) #ifdef debug_diagnostic (and no warnings) ? 13:18:11 dpeg, what timeframe do you want to look at for continued combat-rewrites (specifically those aimed at player/monster symmetry) ? 13:18:23 you know, you can use both ... 13:18:50 SamB_, functionally, they do the same thing, would nice to have a standard..or else we'll wind up with the same discontinuity between mprf and std::stream stuff. 13:19:21 I meant, there's nothing to stop you from using dprf in an #ifdef 13:19:39 SamB_ dprf is only declared if you're building a diagnostic build. 13:19:52 cryp71c: uh, did you change spines to only work on dodge? 13:19:55 The purpose of dprf was so you didn't have to clutter the code with #ifdef diagnostic_ blah blah blah 13:19:57 since that's what it looks like 13:20:12 elliptic, I don't think that was a change? It shouldn't have ever worked on anything BUT dodges. 13:20:25 ??spiny 13:20:25 spiny[1/1]: Mutation, has a chance of doing (xd6 (where x is mutation level) - enemy AC - player EVP) damage to enemies in melee combat when their attack is not blocked by the player. Subject to monster EV. 13:20:31 ah, hrm. 13:20:36 Let me change that. 13:20:50 it didn't work with shield blocks, did work with being hit 13:21:15 minotaur retaliation shouldn't work except on dodge, which I think is still true 13:23:13 k, think I've got it moved appropriately, let me build and test real quick 13:25:11 Cryp71c: hm, no timeframe 13:25:39 dpeg, didn't know if it was more of "would be nice for .10" or "definitely not for .10" 13:25:55 Cryp71c: don't know either :) 13:26:10 Cryp71c: if it's ready, it'll go into 0.10 13:26:11 Cryp71c: btw, there are a ton of typos here... were you really typing out these methods by hand rather than copy-paste?! 13:26:41 elliptic, lol, like what methods? I typed it on my netbook so the keyboard is really tough to type on, but I didn't notice THAT many typos.. 13:26:48 maybe because I didn't notice them, that's why there're so many... 13:26:59 do_minotaur_retaliation() 13:27:03 -!- ais523 has left ##crawl-dev 13:27:35 elliptic, I don't see a typo there... 13:28:02 you'll see a lot when I finish this commit and push :P 13:28:13 seriously, there is no typo there...lol 13:28:16 I guess I'll wait for your push. 13:28:58 hm, speaking of typos 13:29:03 -!- dpeg is now known as dpeg_teacher 13:29:10 equivalent, not equivilent 13:29:13 -!- dpeg_teacher is now known as dpeg 13:29:25 :p 13:29:29 :) 13:29:46 spelling is really one of my pitfalls, something my brain doens't latch onto very well, it seems. 13:30:00 I consistently try to spell 'targeting' as 'targetting' 13:30:55 Cryp71c: that's not very strange 13:32:12 this is very hard to learn for a foreigner, btw 13:33:58 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 13:34:11 What's very hard to learn? spelling? English is my primary language (albeit US English) 13:34:30 Nonetheless, we still spell it 'targeting' so I'm just dumb in that regard 13:34:33 I found it hard to learn that you write "getting" but "targeting" 13:35:21 Fun fact of today: Belgium still has no government (18 months and counting). 13:36:27 O_o 13:37:01 They nearly have three country in one, and still no authorities. XD 13:37:23 dpeg: it's not just foreigners 13:37:39 I have yet to actually learn that 13:37:49 SamB__: yes, I know the funny spelling shows in the USA 13:38:13 03elliptic * rba0bbc83c711 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Fix some minotaur retaliation things that were messed up by UCC. 13:38:26 cryp71c: there's some other weird stuff going on with combat which I need to track down, but I just pushed the minotaur retaliation changes... you can see all the errors that crop up when you copy and paste by hand (seriously, why do this?) 13:40:14 the funny thing about english spelling is that reforms have been attempted (mostly in the usa) but they've mainly just made the situation worse 13:41:42 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 13:42:32 oh, I guess effective_attack_number is 0 for the first attack? 13:42:41 is that intended 13:42:58 isn't that the usual convention? 13:43:21 well, previously the code I just replaced had a one_chance_in(effective_attack_number) 13:43:31 so I was assuming that it started with 1 13:43:55 ah, yeah, that sounds like a mistake somewhere 13:44:02 elliptic, what was the section that was using one_chance_in(effective...) 13:44:20 it is 0-indexed, its possible I wrote one_chance_in(0) intentionally, based on how the old code was written. 13:44:36 in handle_phase_dodged() 13:44:53 (I just removed it with my last commit) 13:45:11 so, git show -p ba0bbc83c711 13:45:22 elliptic, ah, yeah that wasn't intentional. 13:45:30 anyway I'm fine with it being 0-indexed :) 13:45:40 I just need to change what I replaced it with 13:50:13 03elliptic * rc1769965193c 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Fix previous commit not realizing that effective_attack_number is zero-indexed. 13:56:13 03Cryp71c * r1ebbfeadffb6 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Fix UCC merge changes on Spiny 13:56:35 Alrighty, so thus far UCC should be more or less good, compared to pre-ucc master. 13:57:29 cryp71c: it feels to me playing with UCC that monsters have a much higher chance of hitting you than they used to 13:57:50 like, d:1 monsters hit through 15 EV most of the time 13:58:03 currently trying to compile 0.9 to compare against 13:59:21 That's possible, there were some changes to some of the test_hit functionality...I recall that being a bit of a pain. 13:59:27 also, where is shield blocking handled in the code? 13:59:36 elliptic, handle_phase_blocked 13:59:50 Then it branches off from there. 14:00:01 monster vs player blocking is still handled separately, I believe. 14:00:37 oh, so you are handling dodging before handling blocking? 14:01:56 it looks like your spines changes now makes spines trigger if you block the attack, no? 14:03:06 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: No route to host] 14:07:04 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 14:07:14 Sorry about that, system froze up 14:07:55 elliptic, I think I know what you're talking about, I'm pretty sure I'm retarded. 14:07:57 one moment. 14:08:43 ??git 14:08:43 git[1/2]: Readonly: git clone git://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl.git Read/Write: git@gitorious.org:crawl/crawl.git 14:08:53 *shouldn't* dodging be before blocking ? 14:09:00 local repo is now corrupt -_- 14:09:07 ouch 14:09:15 how much have you lost ? 14:09:21 Nothing, I don't think. 14:09:26 good 14:09:28 Had just pushed, was in the process of updating local system. 14:09:29 SamB: perhaps, yes... but it does affect some things 14:09:45 elliptic: yes, I'm sure 14:09:52 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:09:54 -!- SamB__ is now known as SamB 14:10:01 how did it work before? 14:10:01 I probably didn't approach those with any regard than what seemed more appropriate as I was writing them... 14:10:23 I was likely thinking "they're mutually exclusive, so order isn't a huge deal" without thinking about the different impacts the different ordering may have. 14:10:25 like, it means that you get more dodges and fewer shield blocks, which is a buff to most things but not to, say, shields of reflection 14:10:43 hmm 14:10:57 elliptic, also, brands may arguably take effect if you block (even if they don't know, one could make a case for it) 14:11:08 So, that would factor into future balance. 14:11:08 perhaps it should be possible for the player to control that somehow 14:11:24 it isn't a big deal, I'm much more worried about how the chance of monsters hitting you in melee seems to have been increased by a fair amount 14:11:25 since, you know, a real being could do so 14:11:45 SamB, the logical progression should be, attempt to dodge, if not dodge, attempt to block. 14:12:19 controlling that is probably not easily done and won't yield too much benefit, the effort might be to approach dodge and block balance to compensate for the (small) hit to SoR. 14:12:28 Cryp71c: yes, except that with a reflection shield or spines or the like, a character might reasonably elect not to attempt a dodge 14:12:49 like, this version seems unplayable as is... monsters are hitting something like 50% more frequently in the examples I've tested 14:13:10 SamB, don't wield a shield? idk..I'll try to remember it for future consideration, I need to see what elliptic is experiencing atm. 14:13:26 I'm just brainstorming, anyway 14:13:31 elliptic, local revision is 37% checked out -_- let me look at my netbook. 14:13:48 I'm not saying it's actually a good idea -- not all realism is ;-) 14:16:18 anyway the point is that if you, say, have a 2/3 chance of blocking an attack and also a 2/3 chance of dodging it... then previously you would have had 2/3 chance of shield block, 2/9 chance of dodge... now those are the other way around, which means 1/3 as many reflected missiles, for instance 14:16:32 so a pretty serious balance shift I guess 14:17:51 from a realism standpoint, I can see justifying either order really... you realize that you won't be able to move your shield around in time and then decide to dodge, or you try to dodge but fail and happen to have your shield in the right position to block... 14:18:47 in some ways, shields need some love, but in others, they're really quite powerful...hints the "everyone should always use a buckler" (which still contributes quite a lot of SH with sufficient skill) 14:19:20 people use bucklers because the penalty is tiny, that's all 14:19:22 this isn't really about making shields themselves better or worse, but rather about making some effects better or worse 14:19:23 elliptic, preliminarily speeking, the to-hit calc looks the same, don't see any major issues, the comparison of that value vs calculated ev may be problematic though. 14:19:54 looking at that now...regarding the order, I don't mind swapping them again so it is the same as pre-ucc. 14:20:00 just mentioning for the long-haul. 14:20:02 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:20:17 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 14:20:30 a lot of people will say the investment for a regular shield isn't worth it 14:20:45 cryp71c: oh, here's a question... was UCC affected much by the smooth skill stuff? 14:21:00 if you have some skill that isn't being scaled properly, that could explain a lot 14:21:50 elliptic, its hard to say, I saw several instances where skills were being scaled, which I implemented, and others that weren't being scaled at all, I - more or less - followed the diff for resolving those conflicts, rather than diving and reading through the source, trying to decide for myself whether a particular scaling was correct. 14:22:20 I figured whoever did the changes were familiar with the implications of scaling some areas and not scaling others better than me 14:22:46 evilmike, from my perspective, anything which "everyone should get because there's no reason not to have it" is something at least worth reviewing, if not changing. 14:22:56 yeah 14:23:22 I think MarvinPA wants to make shield skill work more like armour skill, this would get rid of the thing where n shields skill makes you have no penalty 14:23:47 or if not him, than someone here 14:23:53 then* 14:24:04 yeah, I'm sure we'll have cause to track them down (whoever they may be) now that ucc is merged. 14:24:12 they likely were holding off until it was in master. 14:24:42 if it's not clear which should go first what about randomizing 14:25:33 Eronarn, perhaps, as elliptic made a good point of, at first this should adhere to pre-ucc merge functionality, if the code then seems funny, we can go from there...randomizing is a good idea. 14:26:34 elliptic, looks like I truly unified the underlying code for determining hit/ev stats..I'll have to compare to pre-merge and adjust as necessary, probably by reducing the base to-hit of monsters. 14:26:41 right now I think for most characters, this situation with shields is this: use a buckler if you are going one-handed (because there's no penalty), probably use a shield if unarmed, only use a shield if you have nothing else to do with the xp or find a good randart. And only use large shields on trolls 14:26:43 otherwise it will adversely affect player to-hit 14:26:46 that's the way I usually play, in any case. 14:27:02 I meant probably use a buckler if unarmed 14:28:00 Cryp71c: ugh, I'm finding random ancient changes that have been lost too 14:28:10 elliptic, how ancient? 14:28:19 between 7 and 4 months ago? 14:28:25 er, between 4 and 1 month ago* 14:28:52 04beebb seems to be only partially applied 14:29:02 that's about 2.5 months ago 14:29:16 not dev related but going unarmed+(large) shield on ogres is perhaps the best option. I tried different offenses on my ogre streak and the unarmed one was the most comfortable 14:29:35 st_: unarmed + shield will be getting nerfed a bit when I get around to it 14:31:14 elliptic, yeah I see that. I'm applying changes, but am unsure as to skill scaling. 14:31:42 I'll fix that one 14:31:49 st_: interesting. I had a good unarmed ogre once, I just assumed GSC was better 14:32:05 but really, there are probably many more lost changes... these are just ones I'm noticing while randomly reading through the file 14:32:14 elliptic: add shield bashes that replace offhand punches and depend heavily on skill 14:33:39 -!- the_glow has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:34:00 elliptic, I'll read through the diff of fight.cc from when I was gone for a few months and verify they're all in master during my bus ride home. 14:34:09 Can you give a crash course in the skill scaling? 14:35:26 you.skill(SK_WHATEVER, scale) returns your skill multiplied by scale 14:36:00 you.skill_rdiv(SK_WHATEVER, a, b) returns your skill multiplied by a/b, rounded to an integer randomly 14:36:46 k, sounds good. 14:37:31 -!- evilmike has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:38:05 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 14:40:52 Messed up values in kills_by_place table in character log (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4926) by evilmike 14:41:37 cryp71c: looks like test_hit mysteriously lost an "ev *= 2;" line 14:42:21 elliptic, ah, yes I recall that being there...I thought I compensated for it....where did I put that.... 14:42:57 probably that's it though, EV being effectively halved sounds about like what I'm noticing 14:43:45 evilmike: can you look after st's comment on the new Tar:$ map? 14:43:51 alright 14:44:35 thank you! 14:44:52 elliptic, it seems quite dumb to put that back in, I'll look to see under what context the *2 was happening (or, if universally for players) and compensate...maybe by dividing monster to-hit by 2. 14:45:24 and when I say "dumb to put that back in" I really mean that it seems unusual that the system is displaying "ev:15" but is effectively treating it as ev30 14:45:36 Well that's weird. looking at mon-pick.cc tells me eels shouldn't be able to spawn in tartarus 14:45:40 That sounds like a cludgy fix someone put in at some point. 14:45:45 it isn't "effectively treating it as EV 30", that's just nonsense 14:45:54 the formula just is different 14:46:22 maybe there's a more elegant way to do it, but we aren't telling people the formula, we aren't telling people to-hit, and so on 14:46:41 no reason why the formula can't be in terms of 2*EV rather than EV 14:46:58 note that EV is used in other places, too 14:47:49 -!- Brannock has quit [] 14:48:06 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 14:48:07 how does water monster generation even work..? It's weird 14:48:32 like, you can get undead krakens in cocytus, but they aren't actually in the list of stuff that can spawn there 14:49:01 elliptic, where else is EV used, out of curiosity? Unadjusted EVP and other similar values are used, but I can only recall EV being used specifically for combat purposes. 14:49:16 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 14:49:24 oh I see, the're probably just large simulacrums that happen to be krakens 14:49:34 Cryp71c: dodging beams 14:49:42 which uses different formulas, I believe 14:50:31 So ev is being scaled *2 for melee combat, but not beams, then? That -oddly- seems worse (not that I'm arguing to leave it as it is, clearly that's terrible from a balance standpoint) 14:50:34 regardless, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having an "ev *= 2;" line in the middle of a complicated formula 14:51:10 uh, "ev *= 2;" doesn't mean that EV is being scaled, it means that the value 2*EV is being used later in the function 14:52:14 only the end result of the function matters 14:52:20 I see it like 3*Str which is used for heavy armour purposes. 14:52:27 yeah 14:56:14 03elliptic * r6500118cd390 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Fix UCC's application of 04beebb. 14:56:14 03elliptic * r908de3bb5bbb 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Make pain weapon damage a little smoother. 14:57:24 anyway I have to leave shortly, so I can't fix anything else now... but really it doesn't look to me like UCC was ready for master :( 15:02:52 we can always revert, but I'll look through the gap of innactivity that I was gone for and search for any other missing commits, applying as appropriate and then go from there, short of the mis-applied commit that affected the stat_to_dam_base stuff, it sounds like some of the foul-ups originate from tha ttime frame. 15:03:16 -!- syllogism- has quit [] 15:03:59 elliptic: thanks for helping 15:04:59 dpeg, idk, I can see the correlation you're drawing with regards to str factoring into heavy armor, for example, but it seems highly inconsistent that - among SH, EV, and AC - EV is the only one to receive any scaling and even then, its not consistent scaling...all the while, combat has been balanced around that scaling. 15:07:40 That's not to say, of course, that its removal was warranted, it still drastically affects the balance as elliptic indicated. 15:07:40 Cryp71c: it is absolutely crucial to preserve the status quo (before UCC) as good as possible. 15:08:13 We can apply all kinds of changes afterwards, but if post-UCC is not pre-UCC, we stand exactly where Brent was with 4.1: something unable to hold together. 15:08:14 03evilmike * r85971d4059bc 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/hells.des: Don't let normal water monsters show up in tar_minmay_river. 15:08:50 The old version may be ugly, but we know that it works. This is invaluable. 15:11:32 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:11:35 cryp71c: it isn't scaling. don't think about it like that. 15:11:46 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 15:11:48 it is just one piece of a formula 15:12:14 03Cryp71c * r5e534f531555 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Fix EV Scaling and Block / Dodge order 15:12:43 right, I understand, and I appologize, in retrospect it was a careless removal, centered on the "this is really unnecessary" train of thought, wereas I should've been focussed - as I was throughout the majority of ucc - on maintaining functionality. 15:13:22 in any case, its corrected now and I've moved the block code upwards in the timeline of code so it is calculated before dodge. 15:14:21 good! 15:14:30 dpeg, the wiki page on ucc is updated, going to remove it so I don't forget about it later. 15:14:36 thanks for doing the change, I'll test it later when I get the chance... actually leaving now :) 15:14:38 s/is updated/is NOT updated* 15:14:53 (its about 3 months outdated, I think) 15:20:28 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:20:41 Cryp71c: I'd say not to delete it, just remove the contents 15:20:50 I'm not sure what doku does when you delete a page 15:27:52 Hrm, I'll hold off. heading out 15:27:54 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:32:20 03evilmike * r4a63a5983f8c 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Fix some mistakes with NSUBST in vaults. 15:37:39 I thought deleting the contents is how you delete the page 15:41:21 evilmike: this NSUBST mistake is very hard to catch (for me) since it looks perfectly intentional :) 15:41:50 heh yeah, and the difference is subtle enough that it's hard to notice it when looking at the ingame results 15:41:57 yes 15:46:21 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 15:56:46 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 16:18:28 03evilmike * r77c88668665d 10/crawl-ref/CREDITS.txt: Add nooodl to CREDITS.txt. 16:23:15 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 16:44:03 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 16:45:15 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 17:02:47 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:05:52 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:06:17 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as arvinPA 17:06:33 -!- arvinPA is now known as MarvinPA 17:07:33 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 17:08:11 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: n8] 17:18:34 -!- ncampion has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:26:14 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:31:16 -!- dondy` has joined ##crawl-dev 17:34:40 -!- dondy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:46:15 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 17:47:14 -!- cosh has quit [] 17:50:52 -!- dondy` is now known as dondy 17:52:45 -!- dondy has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:57:34 -!- Pacra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:57:50 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:58:00 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:58:49 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:03:54 -!- ncampion has joined ##crawl-dev 18:22:29 -!- blueDave2 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:23:52 -!- blueDave has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:30:31 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-2011111804 [Firefox 8.0/20111104165243]] 18:36:57 -!- the_glow has joined ##crawl-dev 18:46:25 03kilobyte * ra6a2b307aec7 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/ (branches/dwarf.des builder/food.des): Remove the alchemist cottage from Dwarf. 18:46:35 03kilobyte * rc4a8f907a717 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Fix compiler warnings. 18:51:07 evilmike: with your great randomization of vaults, would you like to look into finishing up Dwarf? I'm pretty much giving up with coming up with a nice generator, it could be done using heavy subvaults instead. 18:52:29 hmm 18:52:45 evilmike: the plans mumbled before mentioned enabling it together with shortening Elf. Since we were late for the previous shortening, it could be good to shorten it again and have Dwarf instead of 1-2 levels. 18:53:00 It's doable, but I am unsure about the monster set as it currently exists 18:53:39 the only really interesting DDs are death knights and unborn.. necromancers are ok but not that interesting. The rest is just melee enemies that are far less dangerous than unborn/DKs 18:53:45 they were never balance-tuned, yeah... since they don't spawn outside Zigs 18:54:01 artificers? 18:54:36 artificers are a nice idea in theory, but they usually don't spwan with rods. And obviously can't use large quantitied of enemies with rods, since that just showers the player with them as loot 18:55:26 oh yeah, DD berserkers. Those are interesting too 18:56:01 rods of striking... 18:56:13 how do those perform in the hands of monsters? 18:56:27 not sure what's the point in the 49.5% chance of an axe on artificers 18:56:51 I've thought before what could be done to make DD necromancers more interesting. A while ago they were a coinflip between their own book and being Greater Jessicas.. current state is slightly better 18:57:00 like a spell... not a good one, striking was never good 18:57:59 a bunch of deep dwarf artificers with striking could fit the role of ranged enemies, provided the damage is high enough 18:58:28 no idea why they don't get wands 18:58:42 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:59:20 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:00:33 Are scions just supposed to be the generic melee enemy? 19:00:44 even unborn and death knights are messed up, I don't like DD monsters being summoners/conjurers 19:01:09 the death knights could lose summon undead, at least 19:01:19 @??deep dwarf death knight 19:01:19 deep dwarf death knight (03q) | Speed: 10 | HD: 9 | Health: 54-92 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 20 | Flags: evil | Res: 06magic(72) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 857 | Sp: animate dead, mirror damage, summon undead, drain life. 19:01:55 unborn summoners don't bug me, they seem like they're basically DD liches, plus they're one of the few things that cast haunt 19:01:56 give them player style yred bros 19:02:03 also, scions make people run for dictionaries for no obvious purpose 19:02:03 rather than summon undead 19:02:11 and that word makes no sense... "heir" of what? 19:02:12 yeah, I was thinking mabye have DDDK spawn in bands with undead 19:02:20 03dolorous * r54c71a235022 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Replace tabs with spaces. 19:03:09 blue_anna made a comment that it's "Yred themed" yet I don't see any references 19:03:38 drain life on the dddk? 19:03:45 the other stuff is not very yred-ish though 19:03:56 ah no, it works... but without the proper message 19:04:02 Eronarn: animate dead, mirror damage and drain life are all yred powers.. 19:04:10 i meant the other monsters 19:04:13 oh 19:04:17 yeah the DK are the only yred ones 19:04:26 "The deep dwarf death knight utters an invocation to Yredelemnul." -- with not a word about the ghoul appearing 19:04:36 i mean the necromancers are more kiku (obviously) and the berserkers are trog 19:04:39 unborn could be kiku or yred 19:04:44 did we ever figure out what's going to prevent people from stairscumming all the DDs 19:04:58 I feel like the DD necromancer spellset could use another spell, I don't know what though 19:05:02 @??deep dwarf necromancer 19:05:03 deep dwarf necromancer (06q) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 24-52 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Damage: 10 | Flags: evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(56) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 284 | Sp: pain (d11), dispel undead (3d14), animate dead, vampiric draining. 19:05:08 I think bolt of draining would be too boring 19:05:23 agony maybe too extreme 19:05:52 seems fine, it's resistable after all 19:05:58 can we just drop animate dead from most monsters 19:06:02 it only makes boring zombies 19:06:31 !apt dd 19:06:32 DD: Air: -3, Armour: 1!, Axes: 1, Bows: -3, Charms: -1, Conj: -1, Xbows: 1, Dodge: 1, Earth: 3!, Evo: 3!, Exp: 130, Fighting: -1, Fire: -1, Hexes: -2, Ice: -1, Inv: 2!, Long: 0, Maces: 0, Nec: 1, Poison: -2, Polearms: -1, Shields: 1!, Short: -1, Slings: 1, Splcast: -1, Stab: -1, Staves: -1, Stealth: 2, Summ: -1, Throw: -1, Tloc: 1, Tmut: -1, Traps: 1, Unarmed: -1 19:06:35 could replace it with corpse rot 19:06:48 or new twisted res 19:07:01 oh, that's a monster spell? Cool 19:07:26 what's wrong with zombies? On non-casters it nearly doubles the damage done by the monster in question. 19:07:36 it isn't but it doesn't seem like it would be difficult to make it one, since the new code would work the same way 19:08:06 I dont mind animate dead on monsters 19:08:11 it is, lots of elves have it 19:08:11 Eronarn: turns out it is a monster spell 19:08:25 oh 19:08:28 anything use it yet? 19:08:32 yeah 19:08:41 all the elves that used to have animate dead have twisted res now 19:08:46 oh, well 19:09:25 seems like you could do the same for dwarves pretty safely, and just cut it from orcs (because it's not flavorful at all there) 19:10:12 what with orcs not wanting to desecrate orcish remains and most things you'll fight when fighting orcs being... orcs 19:10:44 st_: not any longer 19:10:44 @??necromancer 19:10:45 necromancer (16@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 26-53 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 6 | Flags: evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(53) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 589 | Sp: b.cold (3d18), b.draining (3d15), animate dead / b.fire (3d18), pain (d13), invisibility, animate dead. 19:10:52 it seems pretty poor as a monster spell, animate dead is often very relevant tactically twisted res usually just creates a nothing monster from my experience 19:11:13 what about replacing the b cold necromancer's animate dead with simulacrum 19:11:21 st_: most necromancers got twisted res instead... which is a new gimmick but offers less variety 19:12:08 Eronarn: simulacrum isn't a monster spell, afaik 19:12:10 Eronarn: would be hard to explain 19:12:35 it would be easy to make a "summon simulacrum" spell though, but then it's just an ice themed summon undead 19:12:39 Eronarn: unless we do some complex ritual enchantments 19:12:50 evilmike: which is fine, really, it's more interesting than animate dead 19:13:08 like, apportation, butchering, simulacrum 19:13:28 kilobyte: if we are willing to gloss over stuff at all, this would be exactly the place to do it 19:13:37 and if we're not i have like 1000 more pressing things to bring up 19:15:34 I don't think we need two dwarves with pain mirror, it's a pretty annoying spell and if you're going to be fighting a lot of them... 19:15:49 i seem to recall someone getting kiled by firestorming with pain mirror up or something like that 19:15:55 death knights and (especially) unborn would be rare 19:17:20 st_: what's annoying with it? 19:17:54 st_: one of few monster abilities that are actually interesting. 19:18:19 especially for firestorm users, yeah 19:18:26 because you have to sit there and wait until it wears off 19:18:54 I like to try wands (or hexes if I actually have them) 19:19:03 which is fine and interesting, but you don't want to have to do that all the time 19:19:18 it's okay for dwarf, probably 19:19:20 not so much for zigs 19:20:09 maybe add some new higher tier DDs for zigs to dilute the annoying ones? 19:20:13 for the hypothetical dwarf branch I wouldn't want to use a lot of death knights or unborn. I imagine a yred-themed section which has a couple of death knights (3 or 4), unborn in a boss room, and the rest being misc undead 19:20:18 also the death knights losing summon undead 19:20:53 @??deep dwarf unborn 19:20:54 unknown monster: "deep dwarf unborn" 19:21:04 @??unborn deep dwarf 19:21:05 unborn deep dwarf (16q) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 61-90 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Damage: 17 | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(117), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1336 | Sp: agony, dispel undead (3d19), mirror damage, animate dead, haunt / b.cold (3d20), b.draining (3d16), animate dead. 19:21:19 that's a skewed spell set there 19:21:31 the haunt one is a lot more dangerous, yes 19:21:51 that 2nd one isn't their spellbook, either 19:21:53 st_: to the contrary, I really would prefer them to have Injury Mirror all the time rather than cast it once in a blue moon 19:22:15 st_: because currently you just wait a bit, killing other stuff in meantime 19:22:22 book[1] = MST_NECROMANCER_I; 19:23:07 I'm going to take away the necromancer book from unborn. Makes them less random but I don't see why they should be crappy 50% of the time 19:23:20 what about dropping unborn as being yred at all, buffing death knights, and adding a lower tier yredite that only can drain life but not mirror 19:23:57 having multiple drain lifers seems flavorful since they'd drain life from each other while draining you and yred seems like he'd be cool with that 19:24:25 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 19:24:40 Evening 19:24:58 wonder what efficiency it'd reach when you take shaving into account though 19:25:07 start from scratch on DDs imo 19:25:09 elliptic, found a few more commits between June and October ( the dead period of mine ) that were partially left out, will commit tomorrow morning. 19:25:52 st_: i originally plotted out an idea for a dwarf branch before DDs 19:26:05 the reason it didn't happen: we didn't have soundproof walls, and we didn't have lua traps 19:26:05 "lol dwarf halls" 19:26:08 now we have both 19:26:30 we ave soundproof walls now? 19:26:33 cool 19:27:01 due: well, a while back walls were changed to affect sound in a way they didn't used to, i am not sure exactly how that all works or whether it was intentional 19:27:58 anyways it didn't have the problems of DDs because MDs heal 19:28:35 also i got dpeg to agree that we could call it Dwarven Fortress, which is the important part 19:32:21 I don't know if we can make walls soundproof now. 19:32:28 Eronarn: what are those "MDs" are you talking of? :p 19:32:29 But seeing as they can affect sound then they should be able to be soundproofed. 19:32:44 on DDs, yeah we have a few necromancy/yred things from them right now, but there's a ton of room in crypt for monsters with those abilities 19:35:07 I just pushed some changes to the necromancy DD monsters, nothing huge but it should help a bit 19:35:33 just tweaks to the spellbooks 19:36:17 03evilmike * ra9b785c27fdd 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-spll.h: Give deep dwarf necromancers Agony. 19:36:17 03evilmike * raeabb2e1a40e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-data.h mon-util.cc): Remove generic necromancer spellbook from Unborn Deep Dwarves. 19:36:17 03evilmike * r083e7ed1be9e 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-spll.h: Remove summon undead from Deep Dwarf Death Knights. 19:43:27 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:45:21 due: well, back when i was talking this wasn't at all possible :P 19:46:00 but the idea was you'd have levels with distinct sections, and they wouldn't be scummable by luring stuff with noise into chokepoints 19:46:11 more about a series of intense fights than wandering around corridors picking off lone dwarves 19:49:32 It's a nice idea :) 19:50:21 -!- CIA-55 has quit [] 19:52:16 -!- CIA-49 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:52:18 -!- CIA-41 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:52:20 -!- CIA-49 has left ##crawl-dev 19:54:55 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:58:33 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 20:02:17 03evilmike * r8879aef4ca69 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-cast.cc mon-gear.cc): Make Deep Dwarf Artificers always use rods; make monster Striking do damage. 20:04:22 that one might be worth looking at, I made it so striking is about 3x stronger when a monster uses it, but haven't changed how it works for the player 20:04:24 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 20:04:32 1d8 is just too weak to be the main attack for a monster at that level 20:05:08 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:47 geh, I left a few mistakes in one of my vaults 20:09:02 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 20:09:35 the nsubst for the fourth set calls upon variables that don't exist, which doesn't matter because the fourth set isn't actually set to appear 20:12:03 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 20:13:48 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:57 HangedMan: phun. 20:17:39 it is disappointing because now one will get a choice between catlobe and catlobe or mottled dragon and mottled dragon 20:17:48 instead of things like unseen horrors or ball lightnings 20:19:54 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 20:20:26 :| 20:20:42 (it's an abyss exit vault) 20:22:25 -!- petete has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:09 HangedMan: say the name of the vault so you can be helpful 20:23:24 NAME: hangedman_abyss_exit_choices 20:24:06 I can't see the error. Could you pastebin a fixed version? 20:25:52 http://pastebin.com/XF2uuf0M 20:26:46 thank you 20:27:04 what's that second map? 20:27:18 oh I see, you rotated it and left the first one for some reason 20:29:40 evilmike: what about just buffing it for the player a bit 20:29:42 right now it's pitiful 20:30:10 rod of anger trogites acquiring rods 20:30:21 Eronarn: yeah might as well 20:30:23 rod of we just haven't gotten around to removing it yet 20:30:29 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 20:30:36 I made the monster version 3d10, which is like, actually able to damage you but not that impressive 20:31:21 removing the rod (and the spell) would be an option, in that case I'd say give DD artificers wands 20:32:11 what about making the rod's activation be the same as a melee attack with it 20:32:28 since it has weapon enchantments and decent base damage 20:32:41 5 is decent base damage? 20:32:56 MarvinPA: i mean decent as it's not awkwardly wielded like rods used to be 20:33:07 also, monster bolt of inacc is a really funny spell... 20:33:16 the accuracy is 1, and doesn't get higher with power. but the damage is crazy 20:33:27 bolt of inacc is a badly designed spell imo 20:33:39 it should be a flat miss chance, not actually using accuracy mechanic 20:34:08 stuff like TSO or fedhas with inacc is funny at first but it's just so clearly not intentional 20:34:21 that would be better than having halos and things increase its accuracy, yeah 20:34:22 how does fedhas interact with it? firing through plants? 20:35:02 G-Flex: sunlight 20:35:04 alternatively it could just be removed really 20:35:05 it's not resistable 20:35:09 oh right 20:35:28 MarvinPA: i think it'd be cool to keep around for xom 20:35:38 like sometimes he turns an arrow into a bolt of inacc or something 20:35:54 the rod spell could probably go entirely though 20:36:10 people only use it for curse skulls or for cheating with +acc sources 20:36:20 -!- casmith789 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:36:27 loads of stuff has really low ev actually, so currently it's really good 20:36:34 actually hey 20:36:42 make it a wand of random effects effect 20:36:48 I love TSO with inacc :P 20:36:58 i guess flat chance of missing would help there 20:37:28 but it doesn't make for a great rod spell regardless 20:37:42 MarvinPA: eyebeam mutation :) 20:37:54 hah 20:37:56 slime pits is demolished by inaccuracy, for example 20:38:07 I guess I just like rod spells that aren't book spells 20:38:18 03evilmike * r3440c945c60a 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/abyss.des: Fix hangedman_abyss_exit_choices (Hangedman). 20:38:23 evilmike: we should have more spells in general 20:38:28 and if some of them are rod only that's good too 20:38:34 inacc seemed pretty good when I used it 20:38:38 didn't cost much, lots of damage 20:38:38 nothing besides azure jellies and the royal jelly in the pits has more then 5 ev 20:39:11 i think we should look at the rods we have and consider what they should actually do 20:39:16 the spell has also made me get 27 evocations on two characters now 20:39:19 not many things can do that 20:39:41 like, what do you expect a 'rod of warding' to do, etc. 20:39:54 they are a bit hodgepodge-y right now 20:40:05 rod of warding = rod of defensive stuff 20:40:43 having condensation shield on there is a bit wtf, the other 3 spells make sense though 20:40:56 condensation shield is pretty wtf in general 20:41:00 * SamB hears MarvinPA is the reason that we should have more spells 20:41:01 condensation shield would make sense too, except that its a waste of rod-mp 20:41:06 haha 20:41:12 when I think "rod of warding" I think of things like abjuration 20:41:26 yeah, same 20:41:28 SamB: got to balance out all the cool new stuff people code! :P 20:41:29 word overlap, dangerous 20:41:38 stuff that might protect you, but is mainly oriented around keeping stuff away 20:41:52 * SamB thinks of things sort of like sanctuary 20:41:56 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:42:33 possible design goal? have all rods with one distinct rod-only spell 20:42:39 HangedMan: I hate word overlap if it's what I think you mean by it 20:42:40 that would seem like a valuable change to make 20:42:50 -!- Xiberia_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:42:55 things like "shield" referring to a specific item and also a class of items 20:42:58 also "staff" now 20:43:04 ideally something you can cast more than once from it, and want to 20:43:10 it is quite the vexing issue 20:43:22 say, rod of warding with: abjuration, dmsl, and knockback 20:43:42 knockback, what, like the shiren staff/wand? 20:43:48 rod of sultana acquirement (1/1) 20:43:55 could just make dmsl rod-only and replace the player spell with reflect missiles 20:44:03 G-Flex: the class is "staves" 20:44:09 reflect missiles yesssss 20:44:12 which would be a straight buff, but the spell is mostly worthless currently 20:44:31 -!- Xiberia has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:44:31 -!- Xiberia_ is now known as Xiberia 20:44:36 would this also give kirke and the enchantress reflect or just deflect 20:44:37 we could always revert the introduction of the staff item 20:45:32 evilmike: imo redo rmsl as something more wind-flavored, and make dmsl into reflect and not air 20:46:01 SamB: the plural of "staff" is also "staves" 20:46:24 removing an item because of a name conflict is a bit silly, just call it a "cane" or something instead 20:46:38 like: 'Windshield', it makes the squares immediately around you be cloud-free for the duration and shoves projectiles off course if they'd be affected by wind (arrows, bolts, but not firebreath) 20:47:07 why would firebreath be unaffected by wind if bolt spells are? 20:47:11 are affected, sorry 20:47:17 G-Flex: because it's a wide area attack 20:47:17 bolt as in missile bolts, presumably 20:47:22 yes 20:47:22 oh, fair enough 20:47:27 yet another overlap thing 20:47:29 'small arms fire' basically 20:47:34 so no giant rocks either 20:47:48 hmm, cane sounds too much like it ought to *do* something 20:47:58 * SamB is thinking of Zelda 20:48:05 SamB: it does? 20:48:05 hidden sword 20:48:11 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:48:12 "cane" to me sounds like... a can 20:48:14 e 20:48:15 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 20:48:15 but havng a spell that shoved clouds away could be cool, especially if it depended on power 20:48:16 a walking stick 20:48:26 Eronarn: sounds kind of powerful, if situational 20:48:27 high power and you could walk through a poison cloud with a bubble of safe air around you 20:48:32 tornado 20:48:47 aren't there vaults and such that rely on the player having to get through clouds? although there are other ways around those too 20:49:08 ice form, ds mutations, statue form, lich form, dumping more clouds ontop of them 20:49:12 G-Flex: if it required there being a place to shove the air to, that would make it not useful for the ones where there's a box filled with clouds 20:49:17 the thing about rods is that they're basically *free* spells, the only investment is the time spent using them and the fact that they have to recharge... plus carry weight/slot 20:49:35 also you can't use them with your blade hands 20:49:39 oh, i'm talking as a replacement for rmsl, not for dmsl 20:49:49 Eronarn: or in corridors filled with clouds by yourself 20:49:56 dmsl should definitely be reflect missiles (and maybe change the formula) 20:50:02 would you still be able to cloud yourself though? 20:50:29 G-Flex: i'm envisioning something where clouds move with you 20:50:40 so you have a 3x3 with whatever clouds are there when you cast it 20:51:00 if something clouds you directly, your 'bubble' is tainted with those clouds 20:51:20 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:00:59 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 21:17:08 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:21:31 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 21:25:02 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:39:19 -!- medgno has joined ##crawl-dev 21:42:48 !lg * killer=~_the_ killer!~orc s=killer 21:42:48 greensnark: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 21:42:49 373 games for * (killer=~ the killer!~orc): 10x Eustachio the human zombie, 9x Sigmund, the centaur, 5x Sigmund, the warg, 5x Duvessa the deep dwarf, 5x Sigmund, the orange rat, 5x Duvessa the human, 4x Duvessa, the human, 4x Ijyb, the human, 4x Sigmund, the iguana, 4x Purgy the human, 3x Ijyb, the iguana, 3x Sigmund the yellow wasp, 3x Ijyb the yellow wasp, 3x Crazy Yiuf the orange rat, 3x Sigmu... 21:43:01 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:04:26 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:12:16 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:14:27 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 22:24:16 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:26:56 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:33:48 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [] 23:00:23 03evilmike * rc53ff18a9f34 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: A siren vault (idea by mikee). 23:03:32 Mara reveals who he is (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4927) by Blade 23:04:17 hahaha i just came across a suggestion for "mountain elves" 23:04:20 03evilmike * r40d2ab234cb3 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: Fix a small oversight in the mikee vault just added. 23:14:36 Zannick: I like it 23:14:51 turn it down, though, because there are no mountains in crawl 23:15:27 there are volcanoes 23:16:42 by the same token, there aren't "hills" in crawl 23:17:14 hmm, well, we can call them High Orcs 23:17:22 mine orcs 23:17:27 swamp elves 23:17:28 and make them start with more drugs 23:17:40 the hills are outside the dungeon 23:17:50 there are still no mountains though 23:17:51 the dungeon is in a big mountain 23:17:53 :P 23:18:22 anyway 23:18:27 * Zannick other things 23:37:38 -!- evilmike has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:45:34 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev