00:00:42 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2013-gdc92e72 (32) 00:01:02 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:01:04 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:04:25 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 00:07:40 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2013-gdc92e72 00:22:47 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:23:52 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:42:33 -!- Guest33522 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:42:52 -!- Guest33522 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:15:17 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:21:40 -!- Adam__ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:24:03 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 01:24:23 -!- Aegrisomnia has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:17:31 -!- syllogism- has joined ##crawl-dev 02:20:28 -!- Twinge has quit [] 02:45:54 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:46:40 !tell dpeg Very, very nice reply in the blog! imo that could be promoted to a blog post on it's own 02:46:40 Keskitalo: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 03:03:05 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:12:01 moin! 03:17:26 -!- syllogism- has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:17:46 -!- syllogism- has joined ##crawl-dev 03:20:07 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0/20111104165243]] 03:26:42 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:26:51 -!- alefury has quit [Client Quit] 03:28:04 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:41:36 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0/20111104165243]] 03:42:32 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:42:40 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 03:56:21 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:19:41 -!- joosa has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 04:20:37 -!- joosa has joined ##crawl-dev 04:24:49 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 04:40:19 -!- cosh has joined ##crawl-dev 04:44:07 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:46:16 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 04:50:27 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:00:07 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-2013-gdc92e72 05:05:55 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 05:21:59 the requirement to have 1.0 Spellcasting to memorize spells... should it go away? 05:22:39 on one hand, it's pointless with manual training, and causes an unnecessary inconsistency with auto. And the price is almost none. 05:22:54 how about adding some miscast stuff when you fail at memorizing with less than 1.0? 05:23:04 no abyssing of course 05:23:19 does 1.0 need to be a breakpoint like that at all, especially with the smooth skill changes? 05:23:29 on the other hand, it's at least a tiny bit of investment that might be a bit noticeable at XL1-5 05:23:36 if a player is using spells with no skill he's going to miscast anyway 05:23:51 kilobyte: how reliably can a character cast a spell with 0 skill? 05:24:37 (a level 1 spell) 05:25:34 with 10 int, at Fair 05:26:54 hrm... then maybe some investment should be necessary, yeah, since it's a little odd (in my opinion) for a character to be casting spells successfully with absolutely no skill 05:27:12 (whether this is done through disallowing of memorization before spellcasting 1.0, or changing the success formula, or some other means is obviously debatable) 05:27:51 Bear in mind that with 0 skill, you seem to have 0 power even if you can cast it. 05:28:27 huh. interesting, although shouldn't that stop being true once a skill reaches 0.1? Or is there too much rounding for that to be the case? 05:28:30 ??spell power 05:28:30 spell power[1/5]: (Spellcasting/2 + 2*avg school skill) * INT divided by 10 * (1.5 ^ enhancer count). Now halve the part over 50, halve the part over 100, halve the part over 150, and plain cap at 200. Negative enhancers use 0.5, not 0.66. 05:28:46 I don't know what datatypes are used here or anything 05:29:59 I guess you could still succeed at coronaing a rat or whatever some of the time, or magic darting a spore. 05:30:28 well, the difference between 0 spell power and some really tiny but positive amount is probably significant 05:33:16 Magic Dart does 1d(3+pow/5) damage 05:33:43 ah 05:33:45 can't see any damage spells without a constant term 05:33:49 good 05:34:01 what does the 1d function even do if you try to roll 1d0? 05:35:16 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:37:49 if I read this right, enchantments have a 74% chance to affect kobold or rats at 0 power 05:38:44 and then they last long enough for a typical fight at those levels 05:40:00 there are some useful level-1 spells aside from that, like beastly appendage 05:40:08 I doubt it would last very long, but long enough to kill things 05:40:22 then again, good luck finding that early enough that getting to 1.0 spellcasting matters 05:41:38 Breastly lasts exactly 100 aut at 0 power 05:45:38 breastly appendage should not be a spell. 05:46:20 so 10 average-length "turns"? 05:46:24 because of this too tempting misspelling? :p 05:46:40 or 7 moves of a naga, yeah 05:46:49 yeah 05:54:07 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 06:00:40 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:31:31 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:31:37 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 07:31:48 -!- syraine has joined ##crawl-dev 07:31:56 ...Might I make a comment? 07:32:02 I just got a bee room on Lair:1. 07:32:31 I found some difficulty running from or killing a speed 26, damage 15 average pack of 20 creatures 07:33:05 (they were berserk) 07:33:48 you mean speed 30 07:34:04 beexecutioners 07:38:16 i'm not sure immolating yourself and then trying to out-berserk them particularly qualifies as trying to escape 07:38:56 I found some difficulty running from them whilst berserk 07:38:57 )= 07:39:22 yes, the difficulty was in pressing the keys to read teleport i imagine :P 07:39:31 If I read teleport, I'd die to bees 07:39:34 q_q 07:49:16 most characters at that point could survive a few turns 07:49:26 that said, bee rooms can be really really annoying 08:47:12 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:51:27 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:04:24 the name is "killer bees" :p 09:07:13 kilobyte: the thing about bee rooms is that if your character is at a point where killer bees are at all dangerous, and can't just nuke them... you're in serious trouble with no way to do anything about it (if you don't have teleport/blink scrolls) 09:08:33 yes 09:08:37 particularly if they are berserk 09:08:58 imo adding berserking to killer bees was rather unnecessary 09:09:06 syraine: you still should have teleported :P 09:09:21 G-Flex, how would you know 09:09:24 the bees were berserk 09:09:28 because it's preferable to death 09:09:38 perhaps if I teleported, and did not go berserk 09:09:41 I would have lost 09:09:47 oh, you survived? 09:11:40 I think the problem isn't even so much the threat, it's that it's threat that's right on top of you immediately and you can't predict beforehand whatsoever 09:21:59 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 09:38:49 berserk bees definitely makes fighting bee rooms more interesting, so that is good... the really early bee rooms are possibly a bit harsh though 09:39:20 I don't know how bee room generation works currently but I imagine that bumping the depth a little bit would be reasonable 09:40:29 Lair:1 09:40:31 :P 09:41:26 Lair:1 bee rooms are fine 09:41:41 the issue is the D:8 rooms or wherever the earliest possible one is 09:42:27 I found bee rooms to be quite dangerous even 09:42:53 the worst part is stumbling on one. with hive you knew not to go there unless prepared 09:43:14 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:43:24 this is a good feature of bee rooms and a bad feature of hive :P 09:43:30 maybe something that lets you know before opening the door? 09:43:55 this door is scrawled with warnings 09:44:13 then it becomes hive again 09:44:23 no, it becomes a room with a door =P 09:44:28 not really necessary so long as they don't show up too early, yeah 09:44:33 if you open it, it is up to you 09:44:34 (lair:1 isn't too early) 09:44:38 ??lair 09:44:38 lair[1/3]: Accessed from the main dungeon somewhere between levels 8 and 13. Eight levels deep. The lair is full of "natural" critters such as rats, snakes, and yaks. Two of the Swamp, Shoals and Snake Pit appear there, as well as Slime, and there is a relatively hard vault on Lair:8. The petting zoo of Crawl, if petting zoos had hydras. 09:44:46 I don't want to find a berserk pack of bees on D:i8 09:44:53 D:8* dunno about you 09:45:01 Lair:1 and D:8 aren't the same thing 09:45:04 It's certainly more dangerous than, let's say, a spiny frog 09:45:15 I already said "the issue is the D:8 rooms..." above 09:45:19 I agree 09:45:25 MarvinPA was saying it is not too early 09:45:26 |= 09:45:31 (lair:1 isn't too early) 09:45:32 i don't recall saying that 09:45:38 Lair:1 09:45:41 what triggers the berserking? 09:45:48 Queen bees cast it on a bee 09:45:50 <+elliptic> Lair:1 and D:8 aren't the same thing 09:45:53 i have not yet experienced beeserking 09:45:53 Berserk other 09:45:53 mikee_: queen bees essentially have the berserk bee spell 09:45:54 oh i see 09:45:56 Yeah, I got that 09:46:18 But Lair can be found and entered at that point 09:46:33 that is kind of cool 09:47:03 well i have not experienced it firsthand but it sounds pretty lethal potentially considering how ridic monster berserk is 09:47:15 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 09:47:38 the queen berserk other is a decent mechanic. half filled bee rooms is my suggestion, retains all the current dangers, reduces tedium and maybe excessive piety gain. 09:47:51 and reduces the difficulty by half 09:47:52 yes 09:47:56 a 6x6 block of bees is a bit silly 09:48:14 jeanjacques: some sort of better cap on size would be good at least... you can get 8x11 bee rooms or something like that 09:48:17 changing the shape so it's not just a block (and it's easier for them to surround you) but reducing the sizes might be good 09:48:18 it's not like you can kill the queen bee 09:48:32 why not 09:48:37 it's at the back 09:48:47 the walls could 'explode' when you open the door 09:48:50 ok ignore me 09:48:54 mikee_: hehe 09:49:21 A simple change would be to make the queen bee like Pikel 09:49:28 goes to the front of the pack 09:49:36 queen bee already does push past other bees 09:49:38 give it reaching and pain? :P 09:49:39 the queen does push past- 09:49:39 yeah 09:49:41 it um 09:49:49 yes but it uses most of its turns to berserk 09:49:56 so it just stays there and zerks bees 09:49:59 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 09:50:06 then get out of sight of it or kill it with wands or teleport away or a dozen other things 09:50:11 I've rarely seen the queen bee get to the front until I've killed a ton of other bees already 09:50:14 sounds about right, yeah 09:50:19 if a bee is berserk 09:50:22 it is hard to run away 09:50:34 running away from speed-35 monsters: kind of difficult? 09:50:35 it is particularly hard if you don't even try and instead immolate yourself, yes 09:50:35 nobody has suggested running away from bees 09:50:45 not sure why you keep saying this 09:50:51 get away 09:50:57 elliptic: someone suggested teleporting, which is a sort of running away 09:51:02 I mean get 09:51:03 yes, and teleporting works fine 09:51:05 or run 09:51:15 well, I stood there to plug the gap 09:51:23 I'd say that some characters are basically screwed if they hit a bee room without teleportation on hand 09:51:31 but that's few characters by lair 09:51:46 unless you ran out 09:51:51 G-Flex: if you don't have any teleportation by a certain point then you are likely to die, yes 09:52:06 I think 09:52:06 elliptic: except most threats you can at least respond to in another way, or avoid 09:52:11 bee rooms kind of explode in your face 09:52:11 it's more difficult than other things on Lair:1 09:52:18 G-flex: you can respond to bee rooms in other ways too 09:52:22 it's a room full of monsters that are hopelessly faster than you 09:52:29 well if you're not able to kill them 09:52:31 elliptic: most things, if you can't survive them, you can at least avoid them 09:52:32 your way is to run 09:52:35 i've found bee rooms to be overall a fair problem 09:52:40 bee rooms are fine 09:52:41 except for the ones with 88 bees 09:52:42 -shrug- 09:52:47 those are just retarded 09:52:49 I killed a room of that sort 09:52:59 By mephing my own square 09:53:04 then running off, holding five 09:53:07 then killing bees one by one 09:53:22 the really huge blocks of bees are kind of problematic they just get tedious, as well as extremely easy for anyone with cloud spells or similar 09:53:50 what bugged me about it was playing a hopr and losing my crew. I could have teleported but losing the friendlies is similar in feel to a caster forgetting a bunch of spells, or a melee dropping all the weapons 09:53:55 bee rooms offer a fairly unique threat 09:54:00 blueDave: uh, recall 09:54:04 if berserk ends up being a problem, maybe it would be a good solution to give them bear berserk if the queen is in sight? 09:54:12 yes 09:54:12 i don't know if that is even doable but just an idea 09:54:15 if you're only at *** ;) 09:54:19 at least then they would be low on hp 09:54:21 I'd like that, berserk rage as an escape slot 09:54:28 or on queen bee kill 09:54:33 wouldn't that just mean more bees go berserk and more reliably 09:54:37 yes 09:54:42 but I don't care about it being hard 09:54:44 but easier to kill while berserk 09:54:47 just the whole 'not being able to leave' 09:55:36 anyway currently bee rooms seem to start generating on D:8 if I understand rooms.des correctly 09:55:44 and they continue to generate forever 09:55:50 this seems silly 09:55:51 that's cool 09:55:59 I like bee rooms, they're amusing 09:56:16 rats generate for ages too :o 09:56:18 o=* 09:56:22 also kobold rooms really shouldn't still generate at d:14 09:56:24 some bad person removed hell bee rooms, if i recall =P 09:56:29 hell bee rooms are silly 09:56:36 but D: is a melting pot 09:56:47 i like to think of it as a salad bowl 09:56:51 I get it 09:56:53 |= 10:04:28 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 10:09:25 Rar 10:10:00 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:12:07 hmm 10:12:19 doesn't accuracy slaying work just like it used to before the slaying nerf? 10:13:07 yes 10:13:15 but it was scaled up on unrands anyway? 10:13:23 +8 from the fencer's gloves! 10:13:55 yeah... it does make stuff like thick gauntlets look better to have the two plusses be the same 10:14:01 true 10:14:24 so it didn't use the same formula before, right? 10:14:33 I'm quite sure it did at least for monsters. 10:14:48 kilobyte: hm? accuracy slaying didn't change 10:14:49 accuracy slaying always acted just the same as accuracy enchantment on weapons, i think 10:14:51 yes 10:14:59 but without Cryp71c's rewrite, monsters try to do the exact opposite as player :p 10:15:13 so fencer's gloves might get scaled back 10:15:25 s/might/may/ 10:16:07 well, I think things are probably fine as is 10:16:31 I would have mentioned something earlier if I thought there was a real problem with unrand accuracy boosts increasing 10:18:01 now that you guys are here: what with the requirement of having 1.0 Spellcasting to memorize spells? On one hand, it makes no sense with smooth skills and is trivial to overcome by switching to manual mode. On the other, it is a small cost, noticeable on XL1-5 or so. 10:18:27 it's in the 3.30 changelog but without an explanation 10:19:02 kilobyte: I want to remove that requirement 10:19:15 i wouldn't mind it going either, yeah 10:19:16 I don't think it is really that noticeable, since spellcasting 1 is useful anyway 10:19:33 I agree that it's not useful for anything. 10:19:34 as you said, it is contrary to the smooth skills philosophy 10:20:02 would let us clean out all the weird special casing for bad scrolls being marked as not useless if you have 0 spellcasting and so on, too 10:20:08 ok, removing 10:22:59 Is there any point in scrolls giving spellcasting if we remove that? 10:24:13 not really, but could leave it in for symmetry with fighting plants allowing you to get up to fighting 1 10:24:22 (but perhaps that should go as well) 10:24:36 surely that doesn't still exist 10:24:44 perhaps it doesn't 10:24:49 kilobyte: my only problem with the 1.0-spellcasting requirement going away is that level 1 spells are surprisingly castable with no skill whatsoever 10:25:09 ghallberg: is there any point in scrolls giving spellcasting skill at all now, with the new skill system? 10:25:15 (or plants giving fighting/weapon skill) 10:25:36 yes, presumably we are also removing scrolls training spellcasting 10:25:41 G-Flex: Uhm, no? That's what I was saying... 10:25:46 right 10:29:26 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:30:48 G-Flex: it's only Fair for level 1 spells with 0 skills 10:31:25 doh, forgot scrolls exercising it, thanks for the reminder 10:31:52 if plants are still special-cased to train fighting and weapon skills only up to 1 then we should change that too 10:32:09 my brain just kind of did a double-take remembering that stuff 10:32:09 either by removing the up to 1 restriction or by removing plant training at all 10:32:15 victory-dancing fighting on casters by hitting plants 10:32:38 elliptic: is that relevant for automatic mode? I never use automatic and it certainly isn't for manual mode, so I don't know 10:32:40 could make level 1 spells a bit harder to cast, and then introduce... level 0 spells! 10:32:46 hahaha 10:32:48 "summon butterfly" 10:33:18 "maybe summon butterfly" 10:33:20 G-flex: if it still exists then it would be an automatic mode thing, yeah... training by doing things means nothing in manual mode now 10:33:24 "sticks to stones" 10:33:36 sticks-to-other-slightly-smaller-sticks 10:33:37 "summon stone" 10:33:38 it isn't that important in automatic mode either though, I'd imagine 10:33:47 summon stone would be useful for sandblast :P 10:33:54 I don't really have a good picture of what players use automatic mode though 10:34:14 G-Flex: Nah, you'd just get gravel until power ***... 10:34:33 would it be useful to track how much time each player spends in automatic vs manual mode, and then output those stats as a percentage in character dumps? 10:34:48 i don't imagine anyone switches between the two, surely? 10:34:56 if you were to keep track of stats, you'd have to remember that automatic is the default 10:35:02 and will thus be represented a little more than is fair, probably 10:35:04 you'd switch to manual mode then realise there's no point using auto mode and never switch back 10:35:05 :P 10:35:10 MarvinPA: I agree, but we have no way of knowing! :) 10:35:34 aside from looking at rcfiles, but I assume anyone advanced enough to modify their rcfile is already using manual mode 10:35:42 I mean, the most important thing about automatic mode is how well it works for new players 10:35:52 and new players are probably less likely to play online 10:35:59 true 10:36:28 we'll have to implement opt-out offline data reporting 10:37:34 the automatic mode is supposed to "make a reasonable decision" 10:37:56 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40:59 actually, I wonder if there's a point in excluding bashing plants from exercising skills 10:41:22 kilobyte: yeah, that's what I was thinking... seems like it should be fine for it to exercise them now 10:41:26 ... doh, (answering myself), XL1 wizards 10:41:36 but would you actually want it to, as an automode player? 10:41:39 oh right, stupid entry vaults 10:42:08 arguably entry vaults that require you to melee down plants are bad anyway though 10:42:11 maybe fedhas smites you for killing plants, that would be a good deterrent 10:42:15 and just in general, hitting lots of plants probably doesn't necessarily mean you want to hit enemies 10:42:44 although also yeah, i'm not a fan of vaults involving mass plant genocide either 10:44:13 later vaults often have plants, too 10:44:20 including items under plant in Lair 10:45:08 though if people are really spending a lot of time meleeing plants, maybe they actually *do* want to train melee up a bit :P 10:45:46 probably safest to just disable it from exercising though 10:46:01 disabled 10:49:22 !tell due Paladins don't have their sacrifice functionality yet, yet they're marked as finished. Is that intentional? Spirits kind of make no sense when spawned on the initial level generation (out of Zigs, that is). 10:49:23 kilobyte: OK, I'll let due know. 11:02:54 -!- syraine has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 9.0/20111116091359]] 11:03:25 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:05:34 -!- Adam__ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:13:21 i wonder if crawl would really be a worse game... 11:13:27 if there were NO plants 11:13:40 YES! 11:14:20 maybe i am not being conscious of it, but i can't recall the last time i thought 'that was so interesting because of plants' 11:14:47 plants provide non-LOS-obstructing cover 11:15:08 that is destructible but not trivially so 11:15:32 they are mostly speedbumps to getting loot 11:16:00 loot being under/behind plants isn't really a problem except in extraordinary circumstances 11:16:17 and I've been in plenty of situations where they make combat more interesting because I can see over them, cast certain spells over them, but not immediately move past them 11:16:22 Autotravel has to be babied (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4918) by ion_frigate 11:16:24 it is a bit annoying with no benefit 11:17:10 these would be smite targeted spells only, no? 11:17:14 so I reject your notion that plants never make anything more interesting 11:17:21 or penetrating spells 11:17:28 ah 11:17:32 or spells with area of effect extending past them 11:17:39 also you have bushes, which work a bit differently 11:17:53 because they have near infinite hp/ac 11:18:02 as shrubbery 11:18:12 I just think that what I'm mentioning, plus whatever "flavor" benefit, is worth the occasional minor annoyance of them being in the way of something 11:18:31 mikee_: fedhas centaur altars are fun 11:18:41 I've only been significantly bothered by plants very few times, mostly if I'm a character who somehow can't destroy them 11:18:47 and there's loot under them 11:18:51 i could live without the benefit to reduce the annoyance, personally 11:18:54 and then it just becomes "oh well, I'll get that 17 gold later" 11:18:56 mikee_: although if we removed all water from the game I guess all the plants would die anyway :( 11:19:03 Wensley, heheh 11:19:08 an interesting side effect 11:19:10 mikee_: I think you're accentuating the negative a bit 11:19:13 most features aren't perfect 11:19:44 the game could always just not place loot under plants, or spawn plants on loot 11:19:48 my philosophy(?) is that gameplay should be smooth and efficient 11:20:15 having to stop and deal with non-challenging things that still demand your attention is bad 11:20:17 a videogame isn't a wristwatch, there are softer aspects of it 11:20:36 I wouldn't like OoD as much if it didn't blow enemies apart even though that doesn't have any real gameplay impact 11:20:37 i don't see why it can't have some similarities to wristwatches 11:20:43 sure it can 11:21:17 but in this case I don't think the problems are significant at all (except for things like those godawful bash-through-10-plants-to-get-through vaults) 11:21:31 and most of the problems that might be annoying can probably be dealt with without removing the feature 11:22:13 if loot weren't ever underneath plants (unless someone throws it there, I guess) then there would be extraordinarily few circumstances where plants would become irritating 11:22:18 i see the plant thing and similar issues sort of as having to solve a sodoku puzzle to unlock a vault 11:22:44 well I don't think needing to bash through a bunch of plants to navigate/enter/exit a vault is fun 11:22:47 it's dumb and aggravating 11:23:07 I might have only seen one of those vaults, but it was bad 11:24:57 plants are basically a terrain feature that works differently from other ones and as such can have interesting effects on gameplay/combat from time to time, and the only times I've ever really gotten annoyed at plants (aside from aforementioned kind of vault) are like the 1-2 times I've had a thing under a plant I wanted and couldn't get it right away 11:25:07 because of some weird combination of skills/equipment 11:28:23 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:29:22 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- \o/] 11:30:30 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:38:20 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 11:50:10 what if plants weren't blocking, but were more like a buffed shallow water 11:50:20 takes turns to pass through, during which you're vulnerable 11:51:18 sounds too similar to shallow water imo 11:51:27 would also be nice if herbivores could eat them, to offset the imbalance of chunks 11:51:34 are plants actually problematic enough to even be an issue 11:51:43 then Fedhas' thing would be kinda dumb 11:52:00 blueDave: well, who's an obligate herbivore except spriggans? and they have super-slow metabolism 11:52:13 and most permafood is plant-based 11:53:23 I haven' 11:53:44 i haven't gone far enough to discover whether it's renewable enough 11:54:28 does the supply eventually dry up entirely? 11:54:37 I've not had a whole lot of trouble finding food as a spriggan... 11:54:48 blueDave: eventually, the game just ends and you lose 11:54:50 blueDave: not really 11:55:05 so does it really matter what happens eventually? 11:55:10 SamB_: yeah, I usually watch my spell hunger as a spriggan but with the insane spellcasting apt that's easy 11:55:27 blueDave: you can even find permafood in abyss and pan, and for a spriggan a bread ration goes a very long way 11:55:42 (also keep in mind that abyss/pan don't have chunks anyway, at least not often) 11:55:44 my trouble has been with not getting killed 11:56:08 yes 11:56:16 eating plants is a bad idea, walking through plants is a bad idea 11:56:23 we have plants you can basically just walk through: they're called toadstools 11:56:23 I've always been amused that obligate herbivores can eat cheese 11:56:26 just biologically speaking 11:56:33 Eronarn: and shallow water 11:56:36 walking through plants is cool ... for Fedhas' followers 11:56:42 or obligate carnivores honey 11:56:52 honey is special 11:57:00 kilobyte: well, it's a little odd that anyone can survive on just honey, really 11:57:12 yeah, needz moar locusts 11:57:21 actually though, I'm not aware of any obligate herbivores in RL... (parasites being a bit different) 11:57:38 aren't there plenty of things that don't really eat anything but plants 11:57:58 then again, I've seen a youtube video of a cow nonchalantly eating a live duck 11:58:09 G-Flex: many of them occasionally eat insects, etc. iirc 11:58:14 yeah, probably 11:58:19 because there's not much reason not to 11:58:19 and many obligate carnivores occasionally eat plants 11:58:24 and protein is good 11:58:34 Eronarn: not for nutrition 11:58:47 for vomiting, I think? 11:58:48 felines eat plants very rarely and don't get much out of it 11:58:54 SamB_: yeah 11:59:11 I'm not even sure why, some kind of self-medication thing, or because cats are weird 11:59:12 cats use that if they need to get hairballs out 11:59:20 I've heard people say that their cats like certain types of fruit/vegetables 11:59:32 but then again some kids eat glue 12:00:06 kilobyte: they'll eat the stomach contents of their prey sometimes 12:02:35 heh, as a part of the "eating prey whole" part :p 12:02:52 cats a weird 12:02:59 a friend of mine has a cat that likes banana bread 12:03:03 not bananas, not bread, just banana bread 12:03:29 it's good stuff 12:03:57 it sure is 12:04:14 I was at my aunt's house and was eating tortilla chips and some kind of jalapeno cheddar dip 12:04:23 and their cat was sniffing around acting curious 12:04:35 I let him taste a bit of the dip assuming that he would be very put off by it, but he liked it, a lot 12:04:37 freaking cats 12:04:45 (it was pretty spicy) 12:05:56 once had a bowl full of salsa with some of those scoop tortilla chips in it, and one of my cats jumped up onto the table, grabbed the chip, and leapt away with it and put it down and started lapping up the salsa, all without spilling a drop 12:06:50 I suppose acting like cats are crazy for liking spicy things is a bit hypocritical 12:10:35 G-Flex: glue is more nutricious than you might think 12:10:47 probably 12:11:21 (depending on how nutritious you think it is to start with ;-) 12:12:11 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 12:12:17 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:12:18 at least they put bitterant in antifreeze now... I think 12:12:23 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 12:13:29 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:17:00 it's still cheese... cheese is pretty much the best cat food there is 12:17:18 be efficient; throw away mice from the food chain, this can go directly :p 12:17:36 cheese that still has any significant lactose probably isn't great cat food 12:17:53 nor will it provide very complete nutrition, and depending on the cheese might not be so easy on the digestive tract 12:18:59 you mean, with all the proverbs about cats and milk? 12:19:18 well, cats definitely like milk (or most of them do anyway) 12:19:24