00:02:04 03evilmike * r7ce7a3abce77 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/zot.des: Use magenta glass tiles in zot:5 vaults. 00:03:06 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1930-g2e3d879 (32) 00:10:30 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:04 03evilmike * rdb76c5514183 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/zot.des: Fix lemuel_firehouse. 00:18:53 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1932-gdb76c55 00:37:49 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:40:10 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 00:42:32 -!- Guest32593 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:43:26 -!- Guest32593 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:58:09 03evilmike * rd0ef4f4b51c4 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/zot.des: Increase chance of stairs in a few zot vaults. 01:12:24 now that plate armour is properly called "plate armour" and not "plate mail", is there a reason not to change what other armours are called? 01:12:27 e.g. "scale armour" 01:12:42 I assume plate armour was renamed because "plate mail" doesn't make sense, but that applies to the others as well 01:13:39 I assume kilobyte thought the others made sense more or less or else he would have changed them too... so you'll have to take it up with him 01:13:46 (I don't know much about these things myself) 01:14:05 03elliptic * r85cf7d9029bb 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Make petrified/paralyzed minotaurs unable to retaliate. 01:14:58 G-Flex: I think the changes where made because scale mail and plate mail are the same thing 01:15:16 Even if the name is not historically acurate. 01:15:29 Banded mail got removed aswell. 01:15:53 plate mail is problematic. 01:16:12 due: plate mail doesn't exist any more in crawl 01:16:27 Yeah. 01:16:41 I just meant that "plate mail" was problematic simply from a design and historical perspective. 01:16:43 scale armor is not remotely the same as plate armour 01:16:50 and "plate mail" and "scale mail" don't make sense anyway 01:16:54 "mail" specifically refers to chain 01:16:56 Yes. 01:16:58 i.e. "chain mail" is redundant. 01:17:15 and "scale mail", "plate mail", etc. don't exist 01:17:17 G-Flex: Not in todays language. 01:17:27 Scale mail should probably -> scale armour. 01:17:38 ghallberg: that's not true 01:17:45 people who make "mail" as a hobby are specifically making chain 01:18:09 and in the field of actual historical arms and armors, you don't say things like "scale mail" 01:18:13 Oh well, I don't care. I'm too D&D-ified. 01:18:19 yeah that's the thing 01:18:23 wikipedia agrees with you about "scale mail" being an error 01:18:34 they're all errors really 01:18:43 it's a D&Dism, or at least a modernfantasyism 01:18:43 G-Flex, so what _should_ they be called? 01:18:53 Zaba: s/mail/armour 01:18:59 unless there are better terms available 01:19:03 ah 01:19:03 which there usually aren't 01:19:12 I don't see the problem with using the same term as most other games, it's in commomn use and so forth. 01:19:22 And I don't like the sound of chain armour. 01:19:25 ghallberg: okay, I'll revert the mountain dwarf droppage them 01:19:29 sure but since "plate mail" was removed I thought more common nomenclature was the goal 01:19:31 thanks for your input! 01:19:33 due: Feel free. 01:19:35 ghallberg: well you'd keep that "chain mail" 01:19:38 it's correct, just redundant 01:19:46 fr: bowl armour 01:20:03 g-flex: wikipedia seems to believe in "plated mail" at least 01:20:04 calling everything "(whatever) armour" would be simple and consistent and therefore predictable and therefore good 01:20:08 elliptic: that's different 01:20:13 Anyway, I don't much care. Sorry if I'm being obnixious! 01:20:15 "plated mail" is mail with plates also on it 01:20:18 which might be what crawl means by splint mail? 01:20:20 monqy: that's a nice idea, actually. 01:20:26 due: Sorry 01:20:39 * due shrugs 01:20:40 of course, it wouldn't work entirely 01:20:42 I'm not particularly bothered 01:20:48 e.g. what of robes? cloth armour? 01:20:57 elliptic: I don't know if crawl really "means" anything except some vague notion of how heavy and effective common quasi-real armors on 01:20:58 chain mail could also become mail shirt 01:20:59 "splint armor" is a thing 01:21:20 due: well then the naming paradigm is different because you're naming them with reference to *torso* armor alone 01:21:28 although I'm not sure that's a good idea 01:21:36 since presumably all forms of armor have decent coverage, e.g. legs as well 01:21:57 but yeah, "splint armor" (in real life) is basically a bunch of plates attached to underlying leather-or-whatever 01:22:08 well maybe not "plates" but strips 01:22:10 little plates 01:22:26 g-flex: after reading wikipedia a bit I'd tend to agree with you that "ring armour" "scale armour" "chain mail" "splint armour" "plate armour" would be best, yeah 01:22:30 it's really not a huge deal, but since "plate mail" was renamed I figured people might want to know 01:22:55 I'm happy to go specifically for the heavies. 01:22:55 but yeah real life armors tend to not be named very concisely 01:22:59 the names are usually descriptive 01:23:18 like, you can have "plate armour" but then terms like "lorica segmentata" 01:23:35 which is constructed the same way; "lorica " is just " armor" 01:23:38 so there aren't many amazing terms 01:24:03 there are also other terms but they are obscure enough to confuse new players who don't know what they are 01:24:05 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:24:46 point being changing things to e.g. "scale armour" is kind of the best you'd be able to do :P 01:26:52 lorica plumata is adorable 01:27:39 :) 01:28:31 I don't like the sound of x armour, it sounds clumsy when you say it, but it's all bikeshedding really. 01:28:42 Go historical accuracy! 01:28:46 "scale armour" sounds weird? 01:29:07 Not wierd but chain mail is easier to say. 01:29:11 I think "armour" in " armour" just sounds weird because you *know* it's armour. 01:29:48 There are also more syllables in it and has a different rythm. 01:29:49 what's really funny in fantasy games is "studded leather" 01:29:59 because it doesn't make sense 01:29:59 G-Flex: were you around when I complained about "crystal plate" not having armour? :P 01:30:08 haha I'm not sure 01:30:19 but yeah, adding studs to your leather armor would probably makes things hurt you *more* 01:30:29 a bunch of little metal things only serve to concentrate the force of the blow better 01:30:31 it was the finest in crawl diningware while it existed 01:30:33 this isn't really relevant to crawl though 01:30:52 Yeah, at least we missed one stupid fallacy :D 01:30:53 it's because brigandine 01:30:55 it's still crystal plate on cao 01:31:04 brigandine from the outside *looks* like leather with studs in it 01:31:10 because they're attacking metal plates underneath 01:31:27 attaching, I mean 01:48:53 03evilmike * r05eb9dee9131 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/zot.des: Changes to minmay_elemental_castle to make it actually generate sometimes. 02:00:40 Sigh, I do not understand why monster doesn't woork. 02:01:18 @??saint roka band 02:01:20 Saint Roka (12o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 200 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 35 | Flags: evil | Res: 06magic(72) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 8385 | Sp: smiting (7-17). 02:01:24 Interestnig.. 02:01:25 @??saint roka 02:01:26 Saint Roka (12o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 200 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 35 | Flags: evil | Res: 06magic(72) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 8385 | Sp: smiting (7-17). 02:16:14 Reaching with polarms is not affected by confusion (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4895) by evilmike 02:27:28 combine, damn it! 02:28:05 er, compile, rather. 02:28:12 but seeing as I'm linking that seems like an apprropriat eepithet 02:32:30 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:34:03 Joy. I got to recompile the whole lot! HOORAY! 02:34:06 03elliptic * r5c01102b08da 10/crawl-ref/ (docs/options_guide.txt settings/init.txt source/initfile.cc): Make CONFIRM_ALL_EASY option accessible and fix options documentation. 02:36:15 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:40:43 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 02:50:46 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 03:11:02 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:29:43 -!- Adeon is now known as adeon 03:30:18 -!- adeon is now known as Adeon 03:34:15 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 03:36:53 -!- bhaak is now known as Bhaak 03:39:19 -!- Bhaak is now known as BHAAK 03:58:10 03Keskitalo * rd3257a5d2d64 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/holy/pearl_dragon.png: Replace the pearl dragon tile. It is a recolouring of a new submission from coolio. (#4251) 04:00:04 -!- BHAAK is now known as bhaak 04:01:19 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:05:19 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 04:12:04 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:16:43 @?? geryon 04:16:43 Geryon (03&) | Speed: 10 | HD: 15 | Health: 300 | AC/EV: 15/6 | Damage: 35(reach) | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible | Res: 06magic(120), 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 6391 | Sp: beast. 04:16:50 @?? hell beast 04:16:50 hell beast (072) | Speed: 10-17 | HD: 5 | Health: 39-98 | AC/EV: 4/9 | Damage: 28, 20 | Flags: 05demonic | Res: 06magic(28), 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 288. 04:29:46 @??spriggan baker 04:29:46 unknown monster: "spriggan baker" 04:29:58 well tha's odd 04:30:00 @?spriggan baker 04:30:01 spriggan baker (16i) | Speed: 16 | HD: 7 | Health: 15-27 | AC/EV: 1/20 | Damage: 10 | Flags: see invisible, 07vault | Res: 06magic(65) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 305. 04:30:03 ah 04:30:05 crap 04:33:44 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 04:36:02 okay, so monster is broken and I don't know why 04:36:08 it works for me locally so I'm not sue precisely what's up 04:47:53 -!- syraine has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:48:27 -!- syraine has joined ##crawl-dev 04:59:46 sigh, those blog comments. megane's latest is incredibly disrespectful to File200, who is actually contributing, and whose contribution is in the kind of "stone soup" spirit lack of which some of the commenters are complaining about. 05:00:05 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1937-gd3257a5 05:01:50 i like comment 129 quite a bit 05:01:56 even though i have not read it and don't intend to 05:02:34 I see what you mean, I skipped over as well. 05:03:25 i read the footnotes at the bottom 05:05:44 never! Never!! NEVER!!! 05:06:06 mikee_: Oh man 05:06:13 I haven't read anything below 100 but that line caught my eye 05:07:08 nice 05:08:03 " And this basically amounts to huge nerf on Dwarf armor, just as a Dwarf vault was implemented." 05:08:06 dwarf vault 05:08:07 ?? 05:08:25 huge nerf on Dwarf armor? 05:08:34 this refers to the racial bonus or something? 05:08:39 yeah 05:09:09 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 05:09:15 if only the original stone soup devs were here to put dpeg in his place 05:10:39 greensnark should add a comment obviously :) 05:11:59 whats this about? 05:14:31 md removal backlash 05:14:31 obviously ^^ 05:15:13 as soon as silly things people tend to skip over are discussed, its about MD backlash 05:15:47 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 05:21:01 hm, wow, i responded to bluedave on the mantis before looking at tavern. now that i know hes such a jackass i almost feel bad for not insulting him. -.- 05:21:39 he seemed quite sane on mantis though, and far less confrontational 05:22:38 hehe, yeah, he made an interesting first impression 05:23:07 i am going to use that 'never' expression a lot now 05:25:46 one more reply to the blog post from me 05:29:59 I hiope that doesn't just draw more negative attention to FD. :P 05:34:12 G-Flex: "scale MAIL" is ok, so is "chainmail" (minus a tiny bit of redundancy, gone in modern English), so is "split mail" etc. 05:34:53 G-Flex: even "plate mail" exists, which is armour made of small metal plates (also called "splints" sometimes) wired together with rings 05:36:49 G-Flex: the reason for the change was, "splint mail" and "plate mail" are synonyms, and also people tend to mistake the latter for "plate armour" (as in Gothic plate) 05:37:00 this includes all of our plate tiles :) 05:43:12 wtf. did diablo 2 really get that stuff right? 05:43:15 incredible 05:46:34 fun tidbit: plate armour is 645638673467834 times heavier than *mail, yet it's not much more cumbersome to wear since being rigid, it can support a lot of its weight on your hips rather than arms+spine. Hips+legs = solid bone with load-bearing joints, spine = weak (never meant to carry weight before erect humans). 05:48:17 that's assuming you don't need to make extended use of legs, that is -- plate armour sucks for infantry 05:48:44 most Crawl races are footmen... except centaur bastards who got a horse to carry their lard 05:48:54 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:49:06 And armour is cumbersome for them. Tsch tsch! 05:49:37 Perhaps they should get less -EV, but also less AC/GDR since they have large target area. 05:49:41 (just rambling here) 05:49:55 yeah, bardings should carry a lot of AC/GDR 05:50:25 no "ring barding", "plate barding", etc, though 05:50:59 !apt Ce 05:50:59 Ce: Air: -1, Armour: -3, Axes: -1, Bows: 3!, Charms: -1, Conj: -1, Xbows: 1, Dodge: -3*, Earth: -1, Evo: -1, Exp: 140, Fighting: 0, Fire: -1, Hexes: -1, Ice: -1, Inv: 0, Long: -1, Maces: -1, Nec: -1, Poison: -2, Polearms: -1, Shields: -3*, Short: -1, Slings: 1, Splcast: -2, Stab: -3*, Staves: -1, Stealth: -4, Summ: -1, Throw: 3!, Tloc: -1, Tmut: -1, Traps: -2, Unarmed: 0 05:52:08 I think that'd be interesting reasoning to make Centaurs actually good casters in armour, counterbalanced by their dining habits (which presumably make food costs more severe to them) 05:53:04 centaurs are already very strong dispite what their apts might indicate 05:55:27 I recently made their hunger even worse 05:55:43 with a reduction on permafood though 05:58:00 chunk hunger: 1.666 -> 1.777, permafood hunger: 1.666 -> 1.333 plus a bonus for plant matter (most permafood is plant) 06:08:42 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 06:14:38 @??sword of cerebov 06:14:38 unknown monster: "sword of cerebov" 06:14:46 ??sword of cerebov 06:14:46 sword of cerebov[1/1]: cursed +6,+6 flaming great serpentine sword. Fire resistance is reduced by 1 point for damage calculation with this blade. 06:22:09 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 06:44:38 elliptic: in your minotaur retaliation, the headbutt is Str/Dex weighted according to the currently wielded weapon. Is that intended? 06:45:10 heh, brogue team decided to go to quakenet 06:45:32 don't tell me it has become more stable? 06:48:11 -!- alefury has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:17:50 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 07:18:22 Global Notice] Hi folks. Over the next 30 mins or so I'll be doing some network upgrades. This will be in two stages. First, there will be a huge netsplit, followed by smaller netsplits. About 2700 users will lose connections as a result. I'll send messages directly to users on servers which will be restarted in a moment (zelazny, kornbluth). Thanks for your patience and have a great sunday. 07:23:17 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 07:23:33 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 07:23:46 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 07:23:55 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:24:59 -!- mikee_ has quit [*.net *.split] 07:24:59 -!- oberstein has quit [*.net *.split] 07:24:59 -!- ainsophyao has quit [*.net *.split] 07:24:59 -!- HangedMan has quit [*.net *.split] 07:24:59 -!- MarvinPA has quit [*.net *.split] 07:24:59 -!- BlastHardcheese has quit [*.net *.split] 07:24:59 -!- edlothiol has quit [*.net *.split] 07:24:59 -!- st_ has quit [*.net *.split] 07:24:59 -!- DrPraetor has quit [*.net *.split] 07:24:59 -!- paxed has quit [*.net *.split] 07:24:59 -!- Chousuke has quit [*.net *.split] 07:24:59 -!- ixtli has quit [*.net *.split] 07:24:59 -!- Arian- has quit [*.net *.split] 07:24:59 -!- Henzell has quit [*.net *.split] 07:24:59 -!- Fyren has quit [*.net *.split] 07:24:59 -!- cbus 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##crawl-dev 07:47:30 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 07:47:30 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 07:47:30 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 07:47:30 -!- phyphor has joined ##crawl-dev 07:47:30 -!- ghallberg has joined ##crawl-dev 07:50:02 -!- Eifeltrampel has joined ##crawl-dev 07:54:23 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:57:15 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 07:59:11 -!- Wop has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:05:19 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:05:39 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:06:23 Global Notice] Hi - today's updates are now complete. Join us next week for the next game of upgrades roulette (see blog for schedule if you want to ruin the surprise). Have a great day! :) 08:43:45 -!- Wop has joined ##crawl-dev 09:00:53 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:03:26 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 09:03:59 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:17:31 -!- Sequell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:18:55 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 09:28:40 kilobyte: oh, no, thanks 09:34:17 kilobyte: hm, I guess aux attacks were already using the weapon's str weighting all along... 09:34:43 at least, unless there is some hack hidden here in the aux code with unwielding the weapon temporarily, which seems a bit unlikely 09:34:46 .. 09:34:52 are you replying to keskitalo 09:35:04 no 09:35:25 never mindsss 09:35:31 misread it 09:38:10 monsters minotaurs really need to have retaliation if players do, such an inconsistency would be glaring 09:38:12 03kilobyte * rd4ec7f300b60 10/crawl-ref/source/ (9 files): Replace a bunch of floating-point sqrt()s by integer ones. 09:38:22 03kilobyte * rd329950cc1d3 10/crawl-ref/source/ (beam.cc player.cc): Make curare block breath use. 09:38:23 03kilobyte * r165da3da2f61 10/crawl-ref/source/command.cc: Don't show the help for wizard targetting commands in regular games. 09:38:23 03kilobyte * r90ca2b814e0c 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Don't scan rings for sustenance twice; fix octopodes with three such rings. 09:38:23 03kilobyte * r0a8f3946ce28 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-info.cc: Fix the pronoun in "Lenin (catching its breath)". 09:38:26 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 09:38:29 the damage seems to be damn good though, this could lead to nasty Lab deaths 09:38:56 do octopodes with three rings get negative hunger 09:39:29 no, it's multiplicative now 09:39:34 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it] 09:40:40 kilobyte: I was thinking about that, yes... the damage should be equal to the minotaur's second attack 09:40:42 @??minotaur 09:40:42 minotaur (04H) | Speed: 10 | HD: 13 | Health: 52-92 | AC/EV: 5/7 | Damage: 35, 20 | Res: 06magic(52) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1382. 09:40:55 they might want to use three if they go wild with status effects -- even just haste alone can take three rings to get down to 1 hunger 09:41:46 kilobyte: I was intentionally making it cap at two, but three is fine also... just not eight :) 09:41:47 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 09:42:23 elliptic: ah 09:42:43 really eight is okay also I guess 09:42:59 elliptic: there's a negligible difference for subsequent rings, I don't see anyone sacrificing multiple slots for that, but you might want to cap 09:43:20 hmm right, four rings can handle about any effects you can stack 09:43:45 with the remaining four being regen, regen spell and haste 09:44:04 it isn't like anyone worries about haste hunger anyway... most people don't even know it exists 09:44:11 hmm no, would be 2 hunger 09:44:15 yeah 09:44:18 (a spriggan might conceivably worry, but this won't be one) 09:44:56 there's a different issue: octopodes magically get to use rings while transformed 09:45:08 which spills to other races too 09:45:27 I wonder whether to leave this as an octopode perk, or to restrict it for everyone 09:45:54 can't balance octopodes until they get constriction! 09:46:08 Does anyone know where in the code the piety gain for Makhleb etc. killing things is located? 09:46:36 could be a mild interface hassle though: the game considers all ring slots to be equivalent, with two first slots being special people may want to put some rings there 09:46:52 kilobyte: also there's the issue that for some forms, keeping rings makes sense 09:46:58 lich, statue, maybe ice 09:47:02 DrPraetor: mon-stuff.cc line 1845 09:47:43 rings being all-or-nothing sounds better than just melding some but not others in terms of avoiding interface annoyance, yeah 09:47:58 tm supernerfs 09:48:00 lich, statue and breastly appendage don't modify slots, Blade Hands don't modify rings either 09:49:40 HangedMan: only bat and pig form meld rings currently 09:49:47 kilobyte - are you sure? This looks like the Makhleb heal-for-kills code, 09:50:06 DrPraetor: oh sorry, I'm blind. 09:50:14 ice form is just generally weird 09:50:19 and spider form still has 8 limbs... 09:50:30 godconduct.cc did_god_conduct() 09:51:50 Eronarn: ice form seems to be a bear-like quadruped, with hands being quite like human ones: enough to form "fists" but not to wield weapons 09:52:09 (going by the tile and messages, both can be changed if needed) 09:52:25 kilobyte: yes, except last time i checked it still e.g. moved faster than normal when you cast it as a felid 09:52:44 I'm quite inclined to sweep the problem under the carpet and give octopodes a magical power to use melded rings 09:53:06 are there any forms that block any melded jewelery? 09:53:38 bat and pig, as mentioned 09:53:40 Eronarn: MUT_FAST? That's a bug, you shouldn't get both a boost from the form and get to keep your natural speed increases. 09:53:49 nothing melds amulets 09:54:04 I distinctly remember on sptm that ice form was normal speed 09:54:22 maybe i'm misremembering then 09:54:39 kilobyte: what melds rings? 09:55:39 Eronarn: for normal races, just pig and bat. For octopodes, though... dragons don't have eight limbs, you see. 09:56:05 kilobyte: remove melding from those two forms and there's no problem at all - all forms meld all jewelery 09:56:12 kilobyte: I definitely wouldn't make two rings not meld and the other six meld 09:56:16 er, not meld, but you know what i mean 09:56:35 dragon form is already mediocre for a lot of races that aren't draconians, although I guess I could see dragon form octopode 09:58:36 since rings are innately magical - there aren't non-magical versions - i think it's okay to always have them give effects 10:04:34 Okay, Ely piety gain scales down with current piety, while everyone else their piety gain (from kills) scales down with level only. 10:04:51 Also, Ely piety scales up with hit points instead of with HD like everyone else. 10:05:03 Ely: not the same god as every other god 10:05:09 elliptic: Let me finish. 10:05:11 @??Hydra 10:05:11 hydra (09D) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | Health: 52-94 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious, regen | Res: 06magic(52), 03poison, 12drown | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 1212. 10:05:15 @??Rat 10:05:15 rat (07r) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 1-4 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 3 | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 1. 10:05:54 So an Ely worshipper gains is about 20x as likely to gain piety from pacifying a hydra, vs. pacifying a rat. 10:06:53 more importantly 10:07:14 much higher chance of piety from a worm than, like, eight bats 10:07:30 A Makhleb worshipper, on the other hand, let's assume not high level, has a 50% chance of gaining piety from a rat, and a 60% chance of gaining piety from a Hydra. 10:07:38 elyvilon rewards pacifying slow monsters 10:07:40 Plus the Makhleb worshipper gets a 13/19 chance of piety from the corpse, either way. 10:07:48 You can't pacify worms (they're mindless), but yes. 10:07:56 just an example 10:07:58 OTOH, higher HP makes the monster harder to pacify so I don't think it quite works out that way. 10:08:18 well if you are fighting worms your piety is low, so it would be a moot point 10:08:18 The point is, that Ely, as God of Mercy, has a much-steeper reward curve where the rewards for weaker monsters dwindle very quickly. 10:09:15 elliptic: So you're saying that Ely, because he is not the same as every other God, is *uniquely less interested* in what happens to the weak and defenseless? 10:09:19 I thought you were saying there was a problem 10:09:19 sounds good, more gods should stop caring about weak stuff 10:09:25 yeah 10:09:27 I agree with MarvinPA 10:09:29 really low HP monsters could probably be treated a little less extremely 10:09:38 Like, I thought you were saying that HP does not translate into being difficult 10:09:48 note though that currently any pacification is at least 50% chance of piety up to ** or something like that 10:09:58 elliptic: Yes, and healers start at **. 10:10:11 So, yeah, if you're doing something spoily where you go Ely for a bit to get free healing potions, then you pacify rats. 10:10:12 it's like nemelex 10:10:33 I'd be in favor of replacing HP with HP+10 or something like that in the formula 10:10:38 On the other hand, if you're serious about doing Ely, you might as well kill all the small stuff and save your hunger to spare the lives of the big and terrible. 10:11:07 I really don't see why Ely, unique among all the deities, can't just give you piety for each monster you spare and then you go ahead and spare any rats you find in the late game. 10:11:18 -shrug- 10:11:22 you could make it a counter 10:11:29 add the hp of each monster to the counter and when it rolls over 10:11:31 People seem to have a *huge* problem with this which I just don't understand. 10:11:34 then there's piety for it 10:11:36 or a chance 10:12:02 Again, that encourages the behavior where Ely-ites kill the goblins for food and spare the Hydra for the big piety-counter gain. 10:12:05 so pacifying 40 rats is like pacifying something big 10:12:12 well 10:12:13 03dolorous * re9f644afd8f7 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Simplify. 10:12:17 let's see how that would pan 10:12:19 @??hydr 10:12:19 unknown monster: "hydr" 10:12:21 @??hydra 10:12:21 hydra (09D) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | Health: 52-94 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious, regen | Res: 06magic(52), 03poison, 12drown | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 1212. 10:12:23 @??goblin 10:12:23 goblin (15g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 2-6 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Damage: 4 | Res: 06magic(1) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1. 10:12:39 Admittedly, that does lose you out on 600XP. 10:12:43 19 goblins > 1 hydra 10:12:51 goblins are 19 EXP 10:12:58 hydra is 1212 10:13:31 Yeah, okay, that would work. It's still a steeper drop-off than any other God uses, so I'd prefer it were HD. 10:13:47 that would be 13 > 1 10:13:54 MarvinPA: what do you think about changing the piety gain formula to be a bit more sensible with really low HP stuff as I said earlier? 10:13:54 Admittedly it isn't a huge difference. 10:13:56 you could make it HP+x like elliptic mentioned 10:14:10 that's really, really simple 10:14:15 elliptic: that'd be good, doing something like that could mean there's no need for the coinflip piety gain up until 3* 10:14:26 MarvinPA: yeah 10:14:49 Also, why does the Ely code use a random generator outside of the gain_piety function, when gain_piety has a random number generator roll *inside* it? 10:15:10 ??damage shaving 10:15:11 deep dwarf[2/2]: Damage shaved = 1d(1+1d(1+XL/3)). Damage shaving affects just about everything, including poison and torment, and even hellfire! 10:15:16 it's a motif 10:15:45 It made all this a tremendous bitch to figure out. 10:16:21 DrPraetor: uh, because two completely different things are happening with the random number generator inside and outside the function? 10:20:38 elliptic: I'm pretty sure it amounts to the same thing, at least on average. 10:21:22 I suppose that the *variance* in the amount of piety gained is lower if you keep it outside of the function, but a player is never goign to notice this. 10:21:48 you mean higher 10:22:09 Right. 10:22:11 the point is that using div_rand_round on values higher than 1 means that you will never gain 0 piety 10:22:54 Ah, that's true. 10:22:59 you are suggesting that people get 2 or 3 piety instead of 0,1,2,3, or 4 piety, for instance 10:23:19 It seems like it would have been simpler to structure thigns that way, yes. 10:23:28 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:24:38 well, in general we are more interested in getting the random distributions we want than in having the simplest possible code :) 10:24:57 Really? I hadn't noticed. 10:25:21 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 10:25:41 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 10:28:58 marvinpa: actually, what about just keeping the coinflip() chance of getting at least 1 piety at all piety levels? 10:29:32 hm, that could work too 10:29:42 either way is definitely better than how it is now, at least :P 10:30:04 the thing about the MHP -> 10+MHP change I suggested is that it would be quite a large buff early game 10:30:15 which isn't necessary at all 10:30:34 so reluctant to buff elyvilon 10:30:41 !lg * s=-role 10:30:41 1353925 games for *: 2x , 8528x Skald, 8784x Abyssal Knight, 11109x Healer, 11740x Arcane Marksman, 16990x Thief, 19263x Warper, 19754x Reaver, 23019x Summoner, 23701x Death Knight, 24247x Paladin, 24318x Venom Mage, 25007x Hunter, 25456x Artificer, 29044x Priest, 29727x Gladiator, 29778x Earth Elementalist, 32618x Air Elementalist, 35557x Ice Elementalist, 37860x Stalker, 38237x Assassin, 40655x ... 10:31:00 yeah, that's true... 10:31:23 !lg * role=he 1 x=v 10:31:23 1. [v=0.1.7] huberth the Twirler (L1 HuHe), worshipper of Elyvilon, slain by a kobold (a short sword) on D:1 on 2006-12-04, with 111 points after 315 turns and 0:01:48. 10:31:31 ho hum 10:31:33 ho hum 10:32:30 Too many annotations for Lerneaen Hydra (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4896) by kurper 10:33:07 syraine: ely not getting much play doesn't really have anything to do with power... it is more a matter of pacified monsters being annoying, especially in older versions 10:33:36 mmkay 10:33:40 let's test your theory 10:33:47 also this coinflip() thing I am suggesting is an ely buff 10:33:52 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:34:03 let's say starting from 0.9 10:34:12 !lg * cv>0.9a s=-role 10:34:13 No games for * (cv>0.9a) 10:34:17 !lg * cv>0.9 s=-role 10:34:18 49343 games for * (cv>0.9): 1x Arcane Marksman, 408x Healer, 538x Death Knight, 717x Warper, 736x Stalker, 744x Gladiator, 786x Artificer, 883x Priest, 887x Hunter, 911x Skald, 950x Summoner, 1145x Fire Elementalist, 1188x Abyssal Knight, 1192x Assassin, 1328x Conjurer, 1383x Chaos Knight, 1450x Venom Mage, 1454x Earth Elementalist, 1787x Monk, 1861x Crusader, 1941x Necromancer, 2108x Ice Elementa... 10:34:28 !lg * cv>0.7.2 s=-role 10:34:30 407731 games for * (cv>0.7.2): 361x Arcane Marksman, 719x Reaver, 859x Paladin, 3157x Healer, 4820x Death Knight, 5390x Warper, 6802x Skald, 7970x Priest, 8011x Abyssal Knight, 8048x Gladiator, 8381x Summoner, 8438x Chaos Knight, 8623x Venom Mage, 8905x Hunter, 9708x Fire Elementalist, 10141x Earth Elementalist, 10351x Assassin, 10860x Conjurer, 11642x Stalker, 11685x Artificer, 12121x Air Element... 10:35:51 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 10:36:22 you also haven't removed sebi, which is significant because he doesn't play healers 10:36:38 elliptic 10:36:50 !lg * cv>0.9 race!=dd s=-role 10:36:50 47845 games for * (cv>0.9 race!=dd): 1x Arcane Marksman, 356x Healer, 533x Death Knight, 711x Warper, 725x Gladiator, 732x Stalker, 755x Artificer, 863x Priest, 870x Hunter, 908x Skald, 949x Summoner, 1048x Abyssal Knight, 1142x Fire Elementalist, 1190x Assassin, 1277x Earth Elementalist, 1323x Conjurer, 1368x Chaos Knight, 1402x Necromancer, 1448x Venom Mage, 1784x Monk, 1857x Crusader, 2108x Ice... 10:36:51 do you really want me to check the turn sum of each role 10:37:19 anyway the problems with pacified monsters being annoying are still present in current trunk 10:37:23 yeah 10:37:30 and there is plan to fix them 10:37:35 but also elyvilon isn't trog or okawaru 10:37:37 after that you can see whether ely gets more popular 10:37:42 mmkays 10:38:07 I don't know, doesn't Elyvilon want you to train invo to 10ish 10:38:18 more than that 10:38:26 that's a big investment 10:38:36 invo is weighted at 0.8 10:38:38 but 10:38:54 I think that's 8 or 9 levels in Dodging 10:39:12 !hs syraine ely name!=mikee 10:39:12 22. Xenene the Charlatan (L7 DDAr), worshipper of Elyvilon, slain by a worm on D:2 on 2011-09-25, with 893 points after 3350 turns and 0:24:11. 10:39:24 i've played elyvilon offline, yes 10:39:43 ely pacification is *really good* 10:39:47 i agree 10:40:08 elyvilon pacification at low power is really awful 10:43:33 -!- Sequell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:44:10 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 10:44:30 -!- chrisoelmueller has left ##crawl-dev 11:02:12 03elliptic * r35db85f50e69 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Fix strength weighting for aux damage being based on your wielded weapon. 11:02:13 03elliptic * r9983692e4bb6 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Improve dex weighting for aux accuracy and minotaur retaliation. 11:02:17 03elliptic * r578eceffa83a 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-goditem.cc: Always give some chance of gaining piety when pacifying a monster. 11:03:52 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:04:03 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:04:50 -!- the_glow1 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:07:28 -!- the_glow has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:12:57 -!- heteroy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:13:28 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:13:33 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:14:23 -!- heteroy has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:14:36 -!- heteroy_ is now known as heteroy 11:17:29 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:37:28 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:37:52 items stuck in walls after Corruption (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4897) by ortoslon 11:42:15 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:45:06 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:49:23 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 11:49:56 -!- Soyweiser has left ##crawl-dev 11:57:52 hm, how should mutagenic fog be resistible? some HD check like meph? 11:58:16 that sounds reasonable 11:59:03 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:02:57 -!- alefury has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:12:20 03kilobyte * r3db7517c1565 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-overview.cc: Special-case unique annotation for the Lernaean hydra to avoid # of heads. 12:12:20 03kilobyte * r99736dec54da 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Don't note almost every single monster in ZotDef. 12:14:44 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 12:18:00 hmm, well meph is hd in 21 to resist, i guess mutafog should be harder to resist than that probably 12:19:11 maybe hd in 30 12:19:45 adding a chance of resistance doesn't change the fact that mutafog has serious issues, of course 12:20:08 yeah... it doesn't seem like it'll really address the problems 12:40:52 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 12:42:13 03dolorous * rf20d949d7ee2 10/crawl-ref/source/ (item_use.cc player.cc): Since talons can be gained via Beastly Appendage, use you.has_talons(). 12:42:13 03dolorous * r24571ffa7ba5 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: In the glove wearability check, check for level-3 claws before species. 12:42:14 03dolorous * r757fc69e9901 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Add formatting fixes. 12:42:14 03dolorous * ra4733a21bc36 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h item_use.cc mutation.cc player.cc): Make gloves unwearable with (non-octopode) level-3 tentacles. 12:42:14 03dolorous * r29d0fae6e0a0 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc: Add minor cosmetic fix. 12:42:29 -!- Guest32593 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:42:47 -!- Guest32593 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:44:44 I've been thinking about identification again... 12:50:12 03elliptic * r2fcff53f185d 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Fix felids headbutting and kicking. 12:56:12 03dolorous * r966f0cbc58c8 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Typo fix. 12:58:39 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:05:15 tentacles! :D 13:07:35 I'm gonna make a branch to autoidentify armour with no egos/curses. 13:07:45 I have NO idea where to start, but grep is my friend. 13:19:58 Why am I getting /home/gustaf/Dev/crawl/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/orc.des:663: Bad item name: 'chain mail'? 13:24:38 Anyone? 13:25:50 ??chainmail 13:26:00 I think no " "? 13:26:19 I don't have a page labeled chainmail in my learndb. 13:26:25 I'm confused... 13:26:30 I didn't edit orc.des at all. 13:26:55 Does the copy you have make before changes? It's entirely possible that the current build doesn't compile :) 13:27:25 Also, you may be able to make it without rebuilding the branches stuff. 13:28:37 ghallberg: maybe you renamed chain mail locally? 13:28:48 and forgot you did it? 13:28:59 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:29:30 I'm gonna check out a clean copy instead <.< 14:03:51 -!- st__ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:04:13 03SamB * r6858e3ffed99 10/crawl-ref/source/l_you.cc: Document a few more Lua functions. 14:05:22 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:31:28 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 14:31:42 !seen elliptic 14:31:42 I last saw elliptic at Sun Nov 13 20:19:52 2011 UTC (11m 50s ago) saying lots and lots of wand of healing charges and damage shaving and high HP on ##crawl. 14:31:46 !seen MarvinPA 14:31:47 I last saw MarvinPA at Sun Nov 13 20:16:54 2011 UTC (14m 52s ago) saying haha on ##crawl. 14:32:02 * dpeg wonders what's going on in ##crawl. 14:35:27 -!- syraine has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:35:45 dpeg: earlier we were talking a bit about forge dwarves 14:36:59 clees42 (L16 DsFi) ASSERT(mons->damage_friendly <= 2 * mons->damage_total) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 755 failed. (Snake:2) 14:39:14 clees42 (L16 DsFi) ASSERT(mons->damage_friendly <= 2 * mons->damage_total) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 755 failed. (Snake:2) 14:42:31 elliptic: what do you think? Any chance for them to be interesting enough? 14:43:33 I think there is definitely some potential there, though there are a lot of things wrong with them at the moment 14:44:06 in particular they really can't have the huge evoc apt... steps too much on DD's toes 14:44:41 elliptic: I'd like to get them some play on CDO, but they are clearly not a 0.10 topic, so we have all the time we need (like we did with Vp or Oc) 14:44:48 I do like the idea of having two dwarf races who both can spend max MP for something, though 14:45:27 elliptic, MarvinPA: I really looked for you because minmay put a proposal about weapon enchantments on the wiki. It is thorough. Can you comment, please? (I cannot really do it.) 14:45:51 elliptic: that was my first impulse as well, but then I realised that "one dwarf pays with magic, the other with health" would also be okay 14:46:01 i.e. "magic dwarf", "material dwarf" 14:46:12 still need glacier dwarves! 14:46:12 I don't think they are really ready for play on CDO (no point in putting a version up there that doesn't have any chance of getting into crawl in the current form) 14:46:22 dpeg: yeah, max HP cost could also work 14:47:01 -!- st__ is now known as st_ 14:47:15 for both, I'm not sure whether the simple "enchant weapon/armor" idea will work as-is... it might be good to put some cap on how often you can use it 14:47:42 like, only once per 3 XLs or something 14:47:55 dpeg: anyway, will look at the proposal :) 14:49:21 I think this sort of thing has no chance of getting balanced in time for 0.10 14:49:35 elliptic: hm, you're afraid it is used too often? I was worried it'd be too expensive to use at all :) 14:49:51 elliptic: yes, that's one reason why a comment is needed 14:50:00 -!- alefury has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:50:03 dpeg: well, it depends a bit on whether it is HP cost or MP cost 14:50:26 with MP cost, some chars know that they will probably never care about their MP 14:50:30 (berserkers) 14:50:56 so there isn't any real reason for them to delay using this ability unless they are really going to run out of MP altogether 14:51:22 I like HP for it :) 14:51:22 this is unlike recharging for DD, which requires a wand that isn't fully charged 14:51:28 yes, this is why I like HP for these 14:51:40 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 14:51:53 I still find it a bit strange with HP though, if you can use it 5 times in a row and suddenly have a +9 weapon or armour or whatever 14:52:34 this might not make sense depending on what the cost is exactly, of course 14:52:43 It coulf cost 2HP 14:53:32 elliptic: the function of enchantment per HP invested is our choice, I am not worried about this 14:54:02 dpeg: right, I just think it is better if the ability gets used more regularly, rather than all at once 14:54:11 absolutely 14:55:27 What was that you mentioned about a postby minmay? 14:56:00 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:56:15 I cannot post the link here. Go to the wiki and look at Recent Changes. There's one about "Enchantment" by minmay. 14:56:39 thanks 14:58:25 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:combat:enchantment 14:59:26 The basic idea sounds reasonable. 15:00:41 I'm not sure I've wanted to enchant something badly enough I'd pay MHP for it. 15:00:54 dpeg: what is your impression of fedhas after your recent win with it? 15:01:19 watched a tv of your oklob zot:5 15:04:13 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:04:15 03dolorous * rd322c61b088c 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Properly use ability_type in _is_god_ability(). 15:04:18 jeanjacques: the god is strong enough 15:04:41 and I forgot the water power even, you can use that to great effect in corridors 15:06:11 it is pretty strong. a bit obscure what invocation does for the abilites past success rate 15:07:01 true! 15:07:16 I also used plants in V:8 and against Mennas 15:09:08 you can even use 10 or so oklobs in the opening room of the zot:5 vault and lure everything with shouts or loud spells into it 15:09:23 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:09:53 mini zot defense in reverse 15:09:57 Is projected noise still a spell? Would luring monsters to plants with projected noise (while hiding in safety) be considered abusive? 15:10:09 good question 15:10:13 I've never seen how it plays out, so I can't tell. 15:10:14 perhaps, if we see it overdone 15:10:34 its as safe as you could ever be already with a certain amount of oklobs 15:12:54 jeanjacques: this could be solved (oklob decay, monster AI etc.) but I won't start thinking about it until necessary 15:17:30 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: gn8] 15:19:59 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 15:24:47 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 15:32:14 03dolorous * ra664e83eb6a2 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Clean up placeholder-related code a bit. 15:40:54 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:41:07 dpeg: commented on minmay's proposal 16:00:18 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 16:09:01 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:29:39 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 16:35:12 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 16:40:17 -!- chrisoelmueller has joined ##crawl-dev 16:44:26 With manual control of all training, reading scrolls should probably no longer train spellcasting in auto-mode. 16:45:00 hey ##dev 16:46:24 DrPraetor: something needs to train spellcasting, otherwise auto mode won't raise it 16:46:47 elliptic: If you want to branch into spellcasting, surely you'd just switch to manual mode? 16:47:06 the point is that auto mode should be playable 16:48:09 a better question is why it still requires spellcasting skill 1 to learn spells 16:49:47 it runs counter to the smooth skill philosophy to have a breakpoint like that, and as far as I can tell it serves no purpose 16:55:18 This is true. This would also enable us to disable the weird hack where all spellcasters need Spellcasting 1. 16:56:04 But anyway, the whole point of manual mode is so that people don't need to engage in victory dancing - so why is victory dancing for scrolls->spellcasting still enabled in auto mode? 16:56:36 well, auto mode and manual mode are two different things 16:57:08 as I said, currently it is there only because you need spellcasting 1 to cast spells, so you need a non-spell way of training spellcasting up to 1 16:57:16 I know that we want to be able to tell people that they can play in auto mode "and not worry or think about skill training", but I think most people reading scrolls in auto mode will not want spellcasting trained. 16:57:44 I understand the argument, I'm saying I think it's actually more intuitive to have people go into manual mode if they want to do that. 16:57:57 Or just drop the Spellcasting 1 requirement to learn 1st level spells, that'd be better. 16:58:32 it was never intended that people would swap back and forth between the two modes all the time 16:59:15 anyway we agree that dropping the spellcasting 1 requirement is best :) and then there is certainly no reason for scrolls to train spellcasting in any mode 17:04:53 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:05:03 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:05:17 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 17:05:33 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 17:09:59 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: gn8] 17:20:09 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 17:23:05 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 17:49:56 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:50:00 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:06 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:58:38 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 18:03:29 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 18:03:30 -!- Vandal has quit [Client Quit] 18:10:51 how do you know if someone is already working on an issue / implementable / feature? 18:11:27 blueDave: look at mantis? 18:11:32 you don't. it's part of the fun! 18:11:45 hah 18:13:17 depends on the fun threshold :p 18:13:22 has anyone reverted my poison update? :) 18:13:36 I enjoy making crawl worse for other people and then going on vacation ;) 18:13:47 see, even after you worked on stuff you can never be sure it's still in 18:13:54 usually people mention it on mantis. also there is the future version planning page on the wiki. when in doubt, ask here, someone might know something. 18:14:37 why would the poison change be reverted? 18:14:42 I'm trying to plan on what to contribute while I'm on vacation from real work, if anything 18:15:37 alefury: no idea. plenty of people whinged about the abyss 18:15:59 was it committed? 18:16:06 let me check 18:16:09 its so much better than old abyss, i dont know why anyone is complaining. 18:16:17 90% poison resistance was commited, yes 18:16:23 because bugs 18:16:25 and bugsss 18:16:30 yeah, new abyss is in 18:16:41 i do agree with it being much better though 18:16:52 I understand the vault bug with the abyss. I don't want to fix it though. 18:16:56 mhh, the bugs got a lot better with playtesting 18:17:37 bmh: apropos vault bug, check this out: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4872 18:17:37 easy to check if it's still there, just need a filename of something affected by it 18:18:04 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:13 alefury: weird….. 18:18:16 is the apportation into shallow water bug fixed? 18:18:47 is the dropping items into open doorways ends up pushing said items away onto any nearby non-doorway tiles fixed? 18:19:00 -!- medgno has joined ##crawl-dev 18:23:39 Well, that's a problem. Henzell thinks pacify = kill :) 18:23:58 alefury - looks like it's still there 18:24:12 chrisoelmueller, HangedMan: i cant find these on mantis. report them? 18:24:23 noooooooooooo 18:24:25 (fine) 18:24:42 what, the black tiles? im not surprised, that was a pretty recent problem and i didnt see any related commits 18:25:40 meaning the 90% thing, not the ones mentioned since that came up ;) 18:26:35 what you got against black tiles huh 18:27:07 why would the 90% thing not still be there? its nice. 18:27:15 also black tiles are not very informative. 18:27:25 black tiles are informative 18:27:34 yeah, when theyre not used as floor 18:27:37 it's telling you it's a floor tile in a vault and the abyss is 18:27:44 oh, it can appear as things other then floros? 18:27:52 ...appear on things besides floors? 18:28:01 i dont know. also, the problem is that the vault doesnt include any special floor tiles. 18:29:35 oh, bmh, you wanted to make a tentacle abyss vault a while ago and I told you there were problems with tentacles in the abyss? I just randomly found the mantis issue: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3358 18:29:46 but maybe it was someone else who wanted to make a tentacle vault, im not sure 18:30:01 I submitted a bunch of lethal abyss vaults 18:30:05 I don't think any of them were accepted 18:30:19 "Here, have an executioner and some invisible horrors." 18:30:22 some were, i think 18:30:48 oh, keen -- dpeg did add them 2 weeks ago 18:30:48 the silent spectre one and the one with the pit fiends i think. maybe more. 18:31:15 the silent spectre one got a little broken recently, though 18:31:26 the vault relies on giants to be able to cast while silenced and now they can't 18:31:32 bleh 18:31:36 (well, relies, more like is better because of) 18:31:55 Okay, I think I have slightly better handle on this Ely thing. The main thing is, you really need to focus on Evocations. 18:32:01 yeah. The whole point of that vault was to have scary casty silence immune things 18:32:10 like hellephants. 18:32:10 you could probably replace the fire giants with efreets easily but what'd replace the frost giants is a good question 18:32:20 frost efreets? :) 18:32:24 hah 18:32:31 yetis? 18:32:40 @??blizzard demon 18:32:41 blizzard demon (122) | Speed: 11 | HD: 12 | Health: 49-86 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 20, 20 | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(144), 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire, 08holy++ | XP: 1462 | Sp: b.lightning (3d18), freezing cloud (2d22), airstrike (0-34), b.cold (3d21). 18:32:43 maybe a tiny amount of blizzard demons but that might be a bit too nasty 18:32:45 I think kilobyte told me not to make silly monsters that players won't recgonize when we had perfectly good ones 18:33:00 bmh: aw, heh. 18:33:01 HangedMan: it has hellephants and storm dragons 18:33:09 mmm 18:33:11 fair enough 18:33:36 Zannick: I did add a "Lich Demonologist" to one vault 18:33:47 nice 18:33:51 it should be pretty clear from the name that "This will kill you with summons" 18:34:13 yeah, that one probably works well 18:34:18 doesn't "lich" make that pretty clear 18:34:22 oh, cool -- someone fixed the OSX build over the past month 18:34:29 BlastHardcheese: it doesn't have Crystal Spear 18:36:22 spells:shadow_creatures;summon_greater_demon 18:39:33 just out of curiosity, what does it take to get a vault into trunk? 18:39:48 heteroy: The Dr. Dpeg stamp of approval. 18:40:28 ahh good. he already saw it and seemed favorable 18:40:52 great. Just give him (a lot) of time to put it in. He tends to be busy 18:41:50 It's just difficult to know when it's done. I have no idea if it's balanced or not (it's a branch end/full level replacement) 18:45:11 crypt? 18:45:17 Swamp 18:45:55 mmmmmm 18:46:15 what's the vault's trick for avoiding the standard pitfalls of swamp being swamp? 18:47:24 It's not particularly swampy. It's a castle that looks out on the swamp all over the place. with a few smaller marshy areas. 18:47:58 not being swampy sounds great so far 18:48:01 sounds neat 18:48:08 what's the opposition? 18:48:37 is it possible to have an ice cavern entrance in Shoals? 18:48:42 it's filled with spellcasty mutant fish and has a mutant kraken boss that casts confuse/mesmerise 18:49:00 hahahaha 18:49:41 and some altered abominations that have spelld 18:49:43 spells 18:51:25 lolwut? 18:51:58 so -- can ice caves show up in Shoals? I was thinking of making a "frozen island" mini-vault 18:52:21 a kraken with mesmerize alone is a beast from the deepest pits of hell. also killing players by confusing them into deep water seems like a bit too much. 18:52:31 bmh: just check icecave.des? 18:52:34 there isn't any deep water 18:52:56 oh, okay. still from somewhere below the deepest pits of hell, but not quite as far below then. 18:52:56 it's all shallow water tanks. 18:53:34 originally I just wanted it to defend some optional loot, but dpeg was considering it just to be a swamp end maybe 18:53:38 0.10 is already going to be filled with things pushing the boundaries of fairness 18:53:48 like silver stars and the hellspider 18:54:05 haha 18:54:06 a kraken with mesmerize and confuse sounds in line with this 18:54:08 ??hellspider 18:54:09 I don't have a page labeled hellspider in my learndb. 18:54:11 ??silver star 18:54:12 silver star[1/1]: orbs of fire, now with unresistable attacks! 18:54:16 wtf 18:54:20 @??silver star 18:54:21 silver star (15*) | Speed: 10 | HD: 30 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 12/15 | Flags: 08holy, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire, 02cold, 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 08holy | XP: 7795 | Sp: holy light (3d40), silver blast (3d43). 18:54:27 that's so not nice 18:54:30 @??orb of fire 18:54:31 orb of fire (05*) | Speed: 15 | HD: 30 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 20/20 | Flags: 11non-living, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 02cold, 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 11437 | Sp: b.fire (3d40), polymorph other, fireball (3d43). 18:54:33 slower orbs of fire, with unresistable attacks 18:54:45 fortunately they are only going to appear in holy pan and holy zigs 18:54:53 oh. Whatever then 18:54:57 (holy zigs already being bad enough and now you can't distortion-escape) 18:55:55 alefury: looks like it doesn't show up in shoals 18:56:48 yeah, i just checked too 18:57:13 in shoals, vaults are guaranteed to be placed on Islands? 18:57:36 i dont know. i think in shoals vaults are quite weird. 18:58:00 i have only seen vaults on islands i think. 18:58:22 well, if you want to make a shoals ice cave entrance that would probably be okay 18:58:42 if you build it they will come. 18:58:52 they meaning portals to an ice cave 18:59:26 besides, it can always be changed to an island in a pond in D, with a shallow water path to the portal 18:59:43 island ice cave would be nice, ice beasts float. :) 18:59:44 fortress of solitude, anyone? 19:01:20 just look into shoals level generation first i guess, dont want a ring of water in the middle of a shoals island. also theres special shoals vault syntax for overwriting elevation. 19:01:42 you probably shouldnt use it if you can help it. 19:03:04 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:13:14 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:16:51 @??hydra 19:16:51 hydra (09D) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | Health: 52-94 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious, regen | Res: 06magic(52), 03poison, 12drown | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 1212. 19:23:07 mmmmm 19:23:21 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 19:23:33 butchering in spider form with a melded staff of energy gives "Your weapon is melded onto your body!" 19:28:11 I want a stationary tree monster that has summon tentacles that do middling damage(roots) 19:29:13 HangedMan: mantis! :P 19:29:23 but how would fedhasites get access to it? 19:29:35 invoke evolution on trees? 19:29:52 I promise when I get around to ten issues I will stop being lazy and report them all at once 19:30:13 I just want it as a monster. hadn't even considered it as a player ability 19:30:44 HangedMan: the problem is that bugs get forgotten that way. also, nobody fixes them if the devs dont know about them... 19:31:13 I have a big folder full of things just for crawl and one of them is the "bugs to report" text 19:31:35 and blah blah blah I am a wreck and too slow to go report bugs blah blah blah 19:33:31 is there a berserk other spell that moths of wrath use? 19:33:49 @??queen bee 19:33:50 queen bee (08k) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 24-52 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 2008(nasty poison) | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(28) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 304. 19:34:02 or perhaps the queen bee only berserks other bees, hmm 19:34:06 @??moth of wrath 19:34:07 moth of wrath (04y) | Speed: 12 | HD: 9 | Health: 34-66 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 2505(rage) | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(36) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 502. 19:34:18 innate ability akin to eye effects, presumably 19:34:38 hmm. I wanted to give it to a statue 19:37:31 Okay, I've gotten the hang of new Ely, but I have yet another complaint: the piety gain system is spoily. 19:37:53 It is to your advantage to make peace with high-hit-point, low-XP monsters; which is so counter-intuitive you'd never figure it out if you didn't look in the code. 19:40:33 awww. statues don't seem to cast heal/haste other ever. 19:41:03 is there some sort of tag I need to give 19:41:22 considering there are hp ranges, that's kinda silly to aim for anyway 19:41:24 @??human 19:41:25 human (15@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 3-67 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 10 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 246. 19:41:37 @??griffon 19:41:38 griffon (08H) | Speed: 10 | HD: 12 | Health: 49-86 | AC/EV: 4/6 | Damage: 18, 10, 10 | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(48) | XP: 551. 19:43:01 HangedMan: i think its about hd, not hp 19:43:12 but im talking out of my ass 19:43:28 I haven't looked much at the ely code, drp has been 19:44:02 there are monsters that have haste other though and that works under some conditions 19:45:26 ogre mage, nergalle, um 19:46:24 some new monsters have heal other too. 19:47:01 but is there code specific for those monsters or something that makes them view other monsters in their pack as valid targets? 20:03:32 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 20:05:06 So, as a hvy. armour deep dwarf, is it worth learning Transmutations in the hope that I'll someday be able to cast LRD while stomping around in armour? 20:06:12 since 0.8 lrd does not care one whit about lrd 20:06:18 ... 20:06:23 one whit about transmutations 20:07:23 wrong channel and lrd isn't tmut and sure, you can cast lrd in armour 20:08:22 is there maybe some trick to get monsters to caste haste other? 20:09:56 alefury: The current ely code depend on monster->maxhp, which I *believe* is actually the maximum hit points for the monster type, and not the hit die roll for the monster in question. 20:10:47 mmmm 20:10:54 Oh, and did I mention that passifying Erica seems to give the "you killed Erica" message on Henzell? 20:11:43 It also does that when a unique gets killed before you ever even see it. 20:12:59 -!- heteroy has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.24/20111103063747]] 20:13:49 The lantern of Shadows pisses off Ely? 20:14:14 it's evil so yes 20:14:16 Does the hex spell Darkness piss Ely off as well? 20:14:36 it's not evil so no 20:14:57 (lantern of shadows summons undead stuff) 20:16:13 Oh, right, I forgot it did that too. 20:16:38 -!- medgno has quit [Quit: Quitting] 20:18:05 Okay, I now officially love the new Ely. 20:18:13 "Aizul turns neutral. You feel quite a bit more hungry." 20:19:03 good night 20:19:06 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0/20111104165243]] 20:20:19 DrPraetor: new Ely? 20:20:40 Well, I haven't played Ely since... 0.7? So I'm not sure how new the various new stuff actually is. 20:25:09 ely's always been crazy good, it's pretty much just the piety mechanics that changed to fix waiting-for-piety 20:25:36 Didn't pacification used to work very, very differently? 20:25:47 hmm, not as far as i know 20:26:27 maybe before my time, in 0.5 or something 20:26:38 Maybe it was that long ago, then. 20:26:51 When did DD go in? 20:27:05 no idea, but definitely before my time 20:27:18 0.4 perhaps? 20:27:50 DD didn't go in until 0.6, I'm pretty sure. But anyway, I played a healer pre-DD. 20:27:55 And not since :) 20:28:01 ah, fair enough 20:28:35 i played a tiny bit of 0.5 and started properly/online in 0.6, and i remember DD being there when i started playing online at least 20:59:34 -!- bmh has left ##crawl-dev 21:00:35 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 21:02:48 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:05:43 DD was 0.5 21:05:48 Polymorphing the Royal Jelly leaves annotation (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4898) by Happylisk 21:07:02 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:28 -!- the_glow has joined ##crawl-dev 21:11:49 -!- the_glow1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:28:03 Was MD still in in 0.5? 21:30:59 ??human 21:30:59 human[1/2]: The average race. Their strength, dexterity and intelligence bases are all 6. Their natural magic resistance is three times their character level, which is the default. They start out with no racial "mutations". To learn their natural aptitudes, type !apt Hu in this channel. HP gain is normal, gains +1 random stat per five levels. 21:31:09 DrPraetor: MD was taken out before ? 21:31:20 ??mountain dwarf 21:31:21 mountain dwarf[1/1]: Bad at spellcasting, good at hitting things with an axe for the greater glory of deity-of-choice. "!apt MD" spells it out for you. Relative to humans, gains 1 extra hp per 2 levels, but 1 less mp per 3 levels. Gains 1 str every four levels. Removed in 0.10 trunk. 21:31:28 heh. 21:31:55 ??human[2] 21:31:56 human[2/2]: Awesome slots, apts, and can choose any style of play. 21:32:08 ??hill dwarf 21:32:08 hill dwarf[1/1]: An extinct race of dwarves, much lamented by Cyrus. 21:32:12 * SamB was looking for info about the *monster* 21:32:17 I meant Hill Dwarf :) 21:32:20 @??human 21:32:20 human (15@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 3-67 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 10 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 246. 21:32:44 !apt HD 21:32:46 Could not understand "hd" 21:33:05 hill dwarfs are no longer supported 21:33:19 mountain dwarves are, they're just not allowed to start new games ;-P 21:33:28 perhaps badwiki has a list of HD stats 21:33:32 actually pretty sure 21:33:47 Only point is, I played a healer a long, long time ago. 21:33:47 http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?title=Hill_Dwarf awesome 21:39:41 Okay, yeah. Ely has given piety for pacification since 2008. That means I last played a healer before the previous presidential election. 21:39:48 Playing crawl now makes me feel old :( 22:03:08 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 22:05:54 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 22:14:54 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:22:01 * SamB <3 his git diff config for .des files 22:25:36 obama didn't stand up to removal of mountain dwarves 22:25:56 typical political flipflopping!! 22:26:35 Eronarn: obama only plays teh release versions 22:32:28 Did he promise a dwarf in every pot? 22:36:22 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:39:44 I don't think he made any campaign promises about pot 22:52:08 somebody should send him the blog comments 22:52:29 this voting potential, all lost 22:53:36 Removal of mountain dwarves is going to be fillibustered. The anti-MD-removal people will just keep talking until you give in. 22:54:10 fillibustering is so weird. i know what it is, i just dont know why you let it be part of the system 22:54:32 I understand the old way of doing it 22:54:44 but this "let's not and say we did" is a total cop-out 22:55:37 (and even the old way is kinda dumb, yes) 22:56:32 I propose that HO get a +2 bonus to the following aptitudes: Armour, Fire, Earth, Transmutation. Does that sound fair to everyone? 22:56:54 (and yes, I'm kidding) 23:01:10 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:06:48 Pacified Undead should be released from their torment and vanish, rather than continuing to shamble around. 23:08:13 Jeez, this is a lot of lag. 23:12:28 -!- evilmike_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:15:29 -!- evilmike has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:33:20 -!- evilmike_ is now known as evilmike 23:58:53 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection]