00:01:59 indeed 00:02:30 has there ever been thought given to making undead players (including lich form) leave special ghosts? eg a player that dies while necromutated leaves a lich. I imagine this probably has come up before 00:02:39 it's always saddenign when a player leaves no ghost 00:03:35 or vampires or mummies :D 00:03:38 but alas 00:03:53 We'd have to tweak ghost demon to allow mummiform/lichiform/vampiriform creatures. 00:04:01 which would be problematic because 00:04:05 "WHY NO MUMMY SPRIGGANS IN GENERAL" 00:04:07 etc. 00:04:10 ah 00:05:44 ??shadow demon 00:05:46 shadow demon[1/1]: did i just kill an invisible frog in the abyss 00:05:56 @??shadow demonw 00:05:56 unknown monster: "shadow demonw" 00:05:58 @??shadow demon 00:05:58 shadow demon (062) | Speed: 11 | HD: 10 | Health: 36-72 | AC/EV: 7/12 | Damage: 21 | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(93), 02cold++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 728 | Sp: shadow creatures, demon. 00:05:59 @??ghos tmoth 00:05:59 unknown monster: "ghos tmoth" 00:06:04 @??ghost moth 00:06:04 ghost moth (06y) | Speed: 12 | HD: 13 | Health: 55-94 | AC/EV: 16/10 | Damage: 1805(drain dexterity), 1805(drain strength), 1205(strong poison) | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(104), 02cold, 03poison | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 3460. 00:07:09 we really need a warrior mummy 00:07:28 that's what guardian mummies are, I thought 00:08:15 I was just thinking more of a therat level between guardian and priest 00:08:20 ah 00:08:23 a bit like tbetween orc warrior and orc warlord has orrc knight 00:08:32 well, I think guardians are a bit threatening, cause you tend to have such low hp in tomb 00:08:40 so even though their melee isn't super buff, it's still a concern 00:08:43 this is mostly for vaults :) 00:08:49 specifically my Crypt end vault with mummies 00:09:01 ah 00:09:21 just a few of them or a bigger amount? 00:10:26 kilobyte: just a few, really 00:10:37 I'm havnig to use mummy priests as my "medium" threat level but they're pretty buff 00:11:29 @??flaming corpse 00:11:29 flaming corpse (05z) | Speed: 12 | HD: 8 | Health: 28-62 | AC/EV: 12/13 | Damage: 2004(napalm) | Flags: 07undead, evil, sense invisible | Res: 06magic(42), 04fire+++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 612. 00:11:40 elliptic: troves+renamed wands: unless you care about short-term compat, you don't need to bother, I'll probably break save compat soon so 0.8,0.9->0.10 games won't care. 00:12:14 due: redefinitions might be enough 00:12:28 Oh 00:12:32 of course, they suck wrt random placement 00:12:34 I was about to say "no, tehy can't use weapons" but they can 00:12:35 kilobyte: troves+renamed wands/potions already got fixed actually (by |amethyst) 00:12:58 I'll redefine some, thanks for the idea 00:13:01 @??guardian mummy 00:13:01 guardian mummy (08M) | Speed: 9 | HD: 7 | Health: 36-55 | AC/EV: 6/9 | Damage: 30 | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(46), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 367. 00:13:12 elliptic: ah, not recently 00:13:18 if you want something weaker than torment, there's agony 00:13:21 @??guardian mummy hd:9 . sword 00:13:21 unknown monster: "guardian mummy . sword" 00:13:24 @??guardian mummy hd:9 ; sword 00:13:24 Bad item name: 'sword' 00:13:34 @??guardian mummy hd:9 ; long sword / demon blade 00:13:34 unknown monster: "demon blade" 00:13:42 oh, damn, my brain is broken today 00:13:50 need a | instead of / I think 00:13:52 can't redefine melee, you might want to cripple a greater mummy instead 00:14:03 Guardians are monuse weapons/armour, though 00:14:04 @??greater mummy 00:14:04 greater mummy (16M) | Speed: 10 | HD: 15 | Health: 185-210 | AC/EV: 10/6 | Damage: 35 | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 9026 | Sp: demon, smiting (7-17), torment symbol, summon undead. 00:14:15 and they hit pretty hard 00:14:43 ah, 30 vs 35 00:15:01 with 1/30th the xp 00:15:16 @??guardian mummy h:9 col:lightcyan spells:,,haste,,, 00:15:16 Unknown spell name: ',,haste,,,' in ',,haste,,,' 00:15:24 @??guardian mummy h:9 col:lightcyan spells:haste 00:15:24 unknown monster: "guardian mummy h:9" 00:15:42 @??guardian mummy hd:9 col:lightcyan spells:haste name:warrior_mummy n_repl 00:15:42 unknown monster: "guardian mummy n_repl" 00:15:51 @??guardian mummy hd:9 col:lightcyan spells:haste name:warrior_mummy name_replace 00:15:51 warrior mummy (11M) | Speed: 9 | HD: 9 | Health: 47-70 | AC/EV: 6/9 | Damage: 30 | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(46), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 710 | Sp: haste. 00:16:10 mummy warrior sounds better, I think 00:16:14 true 00:16:16 kilobyte: what not recently ? 00:16:16 n_suf should do that 00:16:28 @??guardian mummy hd:9 col:lightcyan spells:haste name:mummy_warrior n_suf 00:16:28 guardian mummy mummy warrior (11M) | Speed: 9 | HD: 9 | Health: 47-70 | AC/EV: 6/9 | Damage: 30 | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(46), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 710 | Sp: haste. 00:16:33 SamB: not among recent commits 00:16:44 evilmike: No, it won't, it won't remove "guardian" 00:16:47 haha, oh yeah. 00:16:50 @??guardian mummy hd:9 col:lightcyan spells:haste name:mummy_warrior n_rpl 00:16:50 mummy warrior (11M) | Speed: 9 | HD: 9 | Health: 47-70 | AC/EV: 6/9 | Damage: 30 | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(46), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 710 | Sp: haste. 00:16:51 it was the next day, I think 00:17:31 I think there's something else you need, otherwise in game you'll get "Mummy warrior hits you!" 00:17:41 evilmike: Yeah, it'll come to me shortly. :) 00:17:56 thank god they don't leave corpses 00:19:01 @??guardian mummy hd:9 col:lightcyan spells:haste name:mummy_warrior n_rpl n_des ; long sword . great sword . battleaxe . war axe 00:19:01 mummy warrior (11M) | Speed: 9 | HD: 9 | Health: 48-70 | AC/EV: 6/9 | Damage: 30 | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(46), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 711 | Sp: haste. 00:19:06 A hungry kobold corpse x3, you mean ? 00:19:48 @??guardian mummy hd:9 col:lightcyan spells:.;.;haste;.;.;.; name:mummy_warrior n_rpl n_des ; long sword . great sword . battleaxe . war axe 00:19:48 mummy warrior (11M) | Speed: 9 | HD: 9 | Health: 48-70 | AC/EV: 6/9 | Damage: 30 | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(46), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 711 | Sp: haste. 00:20:01 SamB: I can't see anything that would upgrade troves 00:20:04 @??guardian mummy hd:9 col:lightcyan spells:.;.;haste;.;.;.; name:mummy_warrior n_rpl n_des actual_spells ; long sword . great sword . battleaxe . war axe 00:20:04 mummy warrior (11M) | Speed: 9 | HD: 9 | Health: 48-70 | AC/EV: 6/9 | Damage: 30 | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(46), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 711 | Sp: haste. 00:20:08 Okay, excellent. 00:20:46 kilobyte: e7a636f9ab0e31ce586ce7ac3fd1804b0678c3a7 00:22:47 @?? guardian mummy hd:9 col:lightcyan spells:.;.;haste;.;.;.; name:mummy_warrior n_rpl n_des actual_spells ; long sword | great sword | battleaxe | war axe | broad axe . chain mail w:10 | splint mail w:5 | plate_armour w:1 00:22:47 Bad item name: 'plate_armour' 00:22:54 @?? guardian mummy hd:9 col:lightcyan spells:.;.;haste;.;.;.; name:mummy_warrior n_rpl n_des actual_spells ; long sword | great sword | battleaxe | war axe | broad axe . chain mail w:10 | splint mail w:5 | plate armour w:1 00:22:54 Bad item name: 'plate armour' 00:22:57 SamB: ah, way older than other changes 00:22:58 Hm. 00:23:01 Oh, is Gretell a little behin? 00:23:06 I'll go update 00:23:13 kilobyte: which other changes ? 00:23:20 monster not Gretell 00:23:25 Yeah. 00:24:07 SamB: plates from a week ago 00:24:58 Okay, well ,that can update while I go yoga 00:25:01 talk to you all sooon 00:26:46 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:29:08 due: sadly, I have to revert your portal vault inscription changes. Not in master, but soon. 00:29:30 ??? 00:29:42 kilobyte: why? 00:29:43 You use long-removed concepts like dstorigin, level_origin_type, etc. 00:29:46 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:29:51 They're gone? 00:30:04 I'm not going to add those tens of variables back. 00:30:04 hm, whatt are we using instead now, then? 00:30:52 item origins uses place.describe() like any other branch 00:31:16 which is good for #dump and so on 00:32:03 Okay, then how do portal vaults overwrite names and so-on? 00:32:18 they don't need to anymore 00:32:19 It took me almost a week to get WizLab names to function properly in X 00:32:55 Tukima's Studio displays as that -- likewise so does the milestone -- instead of "entered a Wizard's Laboratory", 00:33:02 in X but not everywhere else, that's the problem 00:33:10 Well, yes. 00:33:23 I'm assuming you've improved it so the functionality is identical, though? 00:33:45 so you'd have to chang EVERYTHING, like killtracker and so on 00:33:59 similar not identical 00:34:45 So long as Tukima's Studio shows up as that and not some other name, I'm happy :) 00:35:04 eh not this one 00:35:36 unless we do some WizLab:3 thingy 00:36:08 You've lost me 00:36:12 Hav you pushed the changes? 00:36:46 no, they break too much at the moment, I'd have to explain to people what to avoid 00:37:04 (like having to rm -rf saves/des currently) 00:37:24 ah 00:37:34 gretell's updated, btw 00:37:42 @??orc knight ; plate armour 00:37:42 orc knight (10o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 9 | Health: 45-88 | AC/EV: 2/13 | Damage: 25 | Res: 06magic(36) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 684. 00:37:49 @??mountain rat 00:37:49 unknown monster: "mountain rat" 00:37:51 @??mountain bat 00:37:52 mountain bat (07b) | Speed: 30 | HD: 1 | Health: 2-5 | AC/EV: 1/14 | Damage: 1 | Flags: sense invisible, fly, 07vault | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 1. 00:38:09 got to remove them, too inflammatory 00:39:03 what are we doing about that "megabat" problem, anyway? 00:39:23 in the morning though -- back to sleep. Unless the kitteh gets mad again :p 00:39:27 (it doesn't really have anything to do with megabats, just that's how it manifested.) 00:40:19 SamB: the "megabat" problem? 00:41:21 due: some people had installed, uh, 0.8 and 0.9 I think, and the latter was trying to use the former's .des cache 00:41:24 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 00:42:16 ah 00:42:53 hm 00:43:02 we should probably version des caches 00:43:17 actually, I'm sure we do 00:43:23 so how did they manage to use them? 00:43:38 what do you mean, we do? 00:43:48 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:44:10 ahhh 00:44:15 of course 00:44:20 we do version it but we only bump major version on release 00:44:23 not the des cache version too 00:45:24 I thought they were in some lua bytecode format or something 00:46:35 MAP_CACHE_VERSION :) 00:47:29 And it hasn't been bumped since... 00:47:34 2010-12-24. 00:48:01 I'm guessing we should probably bump MAP_CACHE_VERSION each release we make 00:48:22 greensnark: Is it safe+sane to bump MAP_CACHE_VERSION before every release to prevent cache sharing issues? 00:52:37 hmm, denzi just uploaded a new tile https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/file_download.php?file_id=2566&type=bug 00:53:37 I'm happy with how tar looks... This tile is pretty good though, could maybe go into the pandemonium floor rotation or something 00:54:50 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238]] 00:56:29 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:00:57 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1720-g5de2656 (32) 01:06:52 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 01:09:26 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1720-g5de2656 01:13:15 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:26:24 {found in in the bailey} 01:28:33 {found in the sewer, edible when very hungry} 01:31:49 evilmike: you *know* that got dropped ;-P 01:53:42 !message ophanium good lord shatter 01:53:48 wait 01:54:02 !tell ophanium Wow I just got Shatter and hooooooolllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee shit 01:54:03 Mottie: OK, I'll let ophanium know. 01:56:23 Hmm 01:56:30 I'm not sure about the XP loot of this ending 01:57:13 ημμ, νοτ σθρε ατ αλλ, ρεαλλυ 01:57:16 whoa, whoops 01:57:41 AHHH 01:57:46 ITS CALC 3 ALL OVER AGAIN 01:57:47 AGAIN 01:57:48 AAAAAAAAAAAA 01:57:50 I mean 01:57:52 Hi that's greek 01:57:54 ... no? It's ancient Greek. 01:58:04 I'm joking :P 01:58:23 όι πολλοι! 01:58:44 I forget how to do breathing with this IME. 01:59:29 oh well 02:07:39 !tell MarvinPA in 4.1a Asmo had banishment in his escape slot, but how about we give it to Lom as his escape? Or perhaps replacing regular blink. I've always thought he should have banish (his description as serene makes me think that he would like to banish you away) 02:07:39 st_: OK, I'll let MarvinPA know. 02:09:00 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:09:15 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 02:10:22 somehow I think people will complain if lom gets banishment :P 02:10:39 you don't lose the runes anymore 02:10:46 oh right 02:11:12 no real point in banishment then :P 02:11:33 better than having him blink for no reason 02:13:13 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 02:13:45 Zaba: isn't there a lua command for dismissing all monsters? 02:15:03 a ready function: none I know of -- but why would you want one that does that indiscriminately? 02:15:12 for a _command_, there's &G 02:15:16 for automated lua testing 02:15:29 I want to generate say, 100 of a map and then average the monsters 02:15:48 it would go in the ebug lua module, obviously 02:17:22 deleting monsters is a part of regenerating the level already 02:18:08 but it just want stats on a single vault 02:18:52 hrm, forcing a certain level is there but not in master :p 02:19:36 where is it, then? 02:20:43 if you gave lom an extra ice storm as an escape spell, would he cast it more often when at low hp? 02:20:55 yes 02:21:19 @??lom lobomn 02:21:19 unknown monster: "lom lobomn" 02:21:32 can't gretell predict my horrendous spelling 02:21:44 Lom Lobon only has one Ice Storm 02:21:50 That is pretty naff 02:22:11 lom is a real glass cannon 02:22:17 maybe there needs to be more emphasis on the cannon 02:23:18 I would dump blink away as an escape spell and put ice storm there 02:23:23 and replace one of the blink ranges with ice storrm 02:23:36 so Lom will still heal regularly, but ice storm more often and do less blinky 02:25:52 well cerebov only has one firestorm but he uses it a lot 02:26:13 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:26:23 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:27:17 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:28:02 the other problem is ball lightning doesn't do anything with the relec everyone makes sure to bring 02:30:50 evilmike: I've been thinking about demon pit since you brought it up, I'll contribute a map or too for it 02:31:03 cool 02:31:22 I think there are still a couple of details left to work out 02:31:47 yeah I'm not sure exactly what level the player would be 02:32:13 the ball lightnings still can do a decent amount of damage through rElec 02:32:20 I'm trying to get a feel for what difficulty level is most interesting - meaning, allows the largest range of enemies to be used in a good way 02:33:04 ideally some 5's should still be significant (but easy), and 3's should be hard but usually killable 02:33:28 I was thinking an icecave style thing where you can get one on D:4-7 (always before lair, 543 demons) and D:14-19 (always after lair, 432 demons) 02:33:49 oh, I didn't think of that. That's interesting 02:34:05 I think that's a good idea. 02:34:20 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:34:39 4-7 might be too early, but it bothers me with portal vault how sometimes you can do an entire branch and get them way later than you should (baileys have this a lot) 02:35:21 yeah, I think putting it before lair is a good idea. Once you hit lair depths, the range of character levels becomes a lot larger 02:36:14 i wonder if there's a way to get the depth layer has generated at 02:37:25 evilmike: DEPTH: IceCv !1-5 02:37:33 (doesn't work in master yet) 02:38:02 interesting 02:38:45 kilobyte: what is that? 02:39:00 due, 'not on absdepth from 1 to 5' 02:39:20 Well, yes, but why is IceCv in the DEPTH: field? 02:39:36 Are portal vaults now considered actual location sinstead of pinned-on? 02:39:40 due, kilobyte's plot to convert all non-dungeon level_types (including individual portal vaults) to branches 02:39:41 yeah 02:39:48 oh 02:39:53 does that mean new portal vaults = pain? 02:40:07 if adding an enum and a branch-data entry is pain, then yes 02:40:14 yes, that is a pain 02:40:17 oh well 02:40:25 I don't thtink it's a bad thing 02:40:29 because it means multi-levle portal vaults 02:40:31 right, because we do it ten times a week. Oh wait :P 02:40:36 and /that/ is worth it 02:40:45 (I presume this will allow multi-level portal vaults?) 02:40:51 we do change enum.h ten times a week :) 02:41:02 due: exactly! 02:41:05 i guess zigs don't count as multilevel portal vaults because of that weird way they do it? 02:41:06 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 02:41:17 evilmike: well, it's not weird 02:41:23 evilmike: you can do a normal multi-level portal vault in that mechanism 02:41:27 due, it means a lot of things streamlined, hopefully 02:41:30 evilmike: but it will always be a "you cannot return to the previous level" 02:41:39 ah, yeah 02:41:46 due: yeah, this restriction is gone 02:41:59 of course, level generation for pan/lab/abyss/etc. is still a special case 02:42:04 Zaba: I have this fantasy of being able to have two levels to a portal vault -- but tbeing able to "see" the greyed out outline of the other level 02:42:40 More a kind of 'mezzanine' thing, I suppose. 02:42:56 Zaba: Pan doesn't need that in principle 02:43:48 kilobyte, yes (although my own attempts to make it be built with builder_normal have all failed :P) 02:44:37 kilobyte, and the special stuff in abyss/lab mostly happens _after_ level generation, so they don't really need special cases all that much, either. 02:44:53 I still haven't been able to find the code that generates labs yet 02:44:57 I thin kit doesn't exist 02:45:06 dgn-labyrinth.cc 02:45:49 :D 02:45:52 _labyrinth_maze_recurse is the actual maze builder 02:46:17 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:48:39 yay I have managed to subsume place-population.lua 02:48:51 I had this problem with portal vaults too, it turns out it was all because of 5467398467 dummy balancers strewn all around 02:49:53 ahh, dummy balancers <3 02:56:50 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:58:05 03kilobyte 07portal_branches * rb63d4227075a 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (dc-item.txt item/scroll/blank_paper.png): Remove the tile for scrolls for blank paper. 02:58:15 03kilobyte 07portal_branches * r7b91fc814655 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h main.cc tag-version.h): Use a made-up TAG_MAJOR_VERSION to handle des/save incompatibility for now. 02:59:43 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:59:54 ooh nice 03:00:49 I may or may not end up breaking the compat, but it's better to mark it up for now rather than have to remember to rm -rf saves/des every time. 03:00:57 heh, minmay's new tartarus map lets you dig through the rock wall border near the start, around the whole map, and then right behind the rune. just need lrd to break one stone tile there 03:02:10 not that this is a new thing for hell maps of course 03:04:14 aren't most branch ends like that? 03:04:35 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:05:31 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 03:05:41 some are, some aren't. Usually "dig a tunnel around the whole level" doesn't work any more, though. 03:06:27 I think "dig a tunnel around the whole level" used to be pretty good in tomb:3 but maybe that got fixed? 03:06:45 you need to break a 2-deep stone wall first 03:06:53 in other words you can do it but it will wake up the level 03:07:44 right, but that's not terrible if you'll be safe behind the walls 03:08:07 Hm, demons and mummies = 33k, on average 03:08:07 I should write my treatise on removing Dig as a spell plus not destroying walls with LRD/Shatter. It's not a very popular idea but it'd be fun to put it up properly nonetheless. 03:08:19 Ghosts = 26k, vamps = 20k and skeletons = 44k. 03:08:32 sometimes when ninjaing tomb I've used the strategy of "make lots of noise around the stairs and then teleport when monsters come over" 03:09:19 I think I might need to buff vamps and ghosts and nerf skeletons.. 03:10:53 -!- medgno has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:11:09 @??vampir emosqutio 03:11:09 unknown monster: "vampir emosqutio" 03:11:12 @??vampire mosqutio 03:11:12 unknown monster: "vampire mosqutio" 03:11:18 @??vampire mosquito 03:11:18 vampire mosquito (07y) | Speed: 19 | HD: 5 | Health: 16-39 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 507(disease), 805(vampiric) | Flags: 07undead, evil, fly | Res: 06magic(20), 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | Chunks: 04rot | XP: 179. 03:11:46 I don't mind stone and metal being destroyable 03:11:50 @??vampire 03:11:51 vampire (05V) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 21-46 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 7, 1505(vampiric) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(48), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 212 | Sp: vampire summon, confuse, invisibility. 03:11:53 @??freezing wraith 03:11:53 freezing wraith (12W) | Speed: 8 | HD: 8 | Health: 28-62 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Damage: 1912(cold:8-23) | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: 06magic(42), 12cold+++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire, 08holy++ | XP: 139. 03:11:56 permarock exists for a reason after all 03:12:06 @??skeletal warrior 03:12:06 skeletal warrior (10z) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 54-76 | AC/EV: 15/10 | Damage: 25 | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(93), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 813 | Sp: animate dead. 03:12:13 and therein lies the problem, hm 03:13:34 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 03:13:51 now might be a good time to remove spammals from vampires and perhaps buff them a little 03:14:06 thought knights are strong enough 03:14:10 though 03:16:26 yeah 03:16:41 I balanced it otwards more dancing weapons 03:16:52 gets me to 29k 03:18:11 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:18:48 @??death ooze 03:18:48 death ooze (06J) | Speed: 12 | HD: 11 | Health: 37-62 | AC/EV: 2/4 | Damage: 3204(rot), 32 | Flags: 07undead, evil, sense invisible | Res: 06magic(117), 02cold, 03poison, 08acid+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1272. 03:19:57 I think I'll need some custompire. 03:21:03 ahh, too many bone dragons in the skeletal layout 03:22:07 elliptic: about your buff to antennae: increasing something infinitessimally small by a bit doesn't stop it from being infinitessimally small 03:22:38 antennae 1 were strictly useless, they're now nearly strictly so 03:22:39 am I the only one who obsessively calculates the XP of iterations of branch ends? 03:22:56 kilobyte: previously they could sense adjacent invis creatures 03:23:05 now they can sense creatures on the other sides of walls 03:23:33 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:23:47 IIRC that works only when you can't see the place 03:23:48 "nearly useless -> some use" seemed good to me as a start, I wouldn't be against increasing their radius to 3 03:23:55 which, for adjacent, means never 03:24:00 due: probably :P 03:24:08 yay! 03:24:14 32, 32, 31, 32, 32 :D 03:24:24 I pay more attention to loot distribution than anything 03:24:38 evilmike: I haven't done the loot yet. 03:24:41 due: jpeg did but it was ages ago 03:25:15 I'd rather not have people go "OH GREAT I GOT THE VAMPIRE ENDING THAT SUCKS NO EXP" 03:25:32 strangely, I don't think I've ever heard complaints of that sort 03:25:42 people do sometimes complain about how some endings have poorer loot than others though 03:25:45 possibly because people find it hard to judge how much xp they are getting 03:26:30 people tend to think that some places have more xp than they do 03:26:52 due: although, people will complain about the vampire ending, because of vampire summon 03:27:30 (specifically thinking of orc, elf, and lair branches... lots of monsters, but most of them aren't worth significant xp) 03:29:56 even more, xp is not visible directly anymore 03:32:04 03kilobyte * r2f142e0ea6da 10/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc: Handle buffer underflows of memory streams gracefully. 03:32:34 evilmike: fuck 'em ;) 03:32:55 but yes, loot will be aninteresting one 03:33:14 elliptic: hardly anyone ever gets more than one level of a rare mutation, so outside of demonspawn, it's the first level than needs to be balanced the most 03:33:47 elliptic: that's quite true about elf... in my last several games I have usually skipped elf:1-4 03:34:05 elf:5 has decent xp, good loot... the other 4 levels are mostly just a chance of finding a portal if you're lucky 03:34:23 oh, and bucklers 03:34:25 i'm not surprised elliptic wants to buff antennae considering his doomrl playstyle =P 03:34:31 kilobyte: well, as I said, I wouldn't object to it being 3/5/7, or even higher 03:34:31 bucklers <3 03:35:15 kilobyte: I was honestly surprised to find that it was 1/3/5 when I went to look, since I thought it was 3/5/7 for some reason... 03:35:37 This map also may get Jory :D 03:36:05 i would love for jory to get some more use 03:36:06 has 10 03:36:14 !killsby jory 03:36:14 No games for * (ckiller=jory) 03:36:17 poor jory 03:36:19 a shame 03:36:21 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 03:36:40 still never seen jory :P 03:36:47 it's crazy 03:36:53 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:37:08 elf:1-4 has regular floor loot, which is always needed 03:37:23 gah, what is vampiric draining's ego name? 03:37:27 (but indeed almost no xp) 03:37:34 due: vampiricism 03:37:37 ah, thanks 03:37:38 kilobyte: antennae should never give as much as ashenzari, of course... but there's still definitely room to raise it further 03:38:01 due: that's a plot to deceive any sneaky non-devs who try to edit Crawl :p 03:38:05 yay vampiric weapons :D 03:38:16 I made the dancing weapons in the vampire ending all vampiric :) 03:38:37 yay, the map cache is not versioned 03:38:46 haha more dancing weapons in crypt... 03:38:52 how did that theme start, anyway? 03:39:32 bobbens, I think 03:39:49 his cryptofortress gets the most kills 03:40:03 I'm hoping this map is going to get its share of kills :) 03:40:09 suddenly getting dancing weapons and golems on crypt:5 is pretty weird IMO 03:40:12 @??vampire 03:40:13 vampire (05V) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 21-46 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 7, 1505(vampiric) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(48), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 212 | Sp: vampire summon, confuse, invisibility. 03:40:17 due: I like this thinking :) 03:40:20 @??vampire mage 03:40:20 vampire mage (06V) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 29-52 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 7, 1505(vampiric) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(64), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 587 | Sp: b.draining (3d13), summon undead, invisibility, animate dead. 03:40:22 @??vampire knight 03:40:23 vampire knight (10V) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 44-94 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 33, 1505(vampiric) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(88), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1431 | Sp: vampire summon, paralyse, haste, invisibility, minor healing. 03:40:32 hm, need a warrior-y colour for vampire warriors... 03:40:54 !lg place=crypt:5 cv>=0.9 s=map 03:40:54 No games for evilmike (place=crypt:5 cv>=0.9) 03:41:00 !lg * place=crypt:5 cv>=0.9 s=map 03:41:00 26 games for * (place=crypt:5 cv>=0.9): 10x cryptofortress bobbens, 5x church of pain bobbens, 4x , 3x david glass crypt, 3x quadcrypt mu, 1x evilmike haunted forest 03:41:08 there isn't any non-undead unlife on crypt:1-4 and then some of the endings have quite a lot of it for no apparent reason 03:41:17 either i did that wrong or the map i made somehow lost kills 03:41:25 apart from dancing weapons, my map only has undead 03:41:28 cv>=0.9 doesn't count 0.10-a 03:41:32 I see 03:41:48 !lg * place=crypt:5 ((cv=~0.9 || cv=~0.10)) s=map 03:41:49 35 games for * (place=crypt:5 ((cv=~0.9 || cv=~0.10))): 10x cryptofortress bobbens, 7x , 6x church of pain bobbens, 6x david glass crypt, 5x quadcrypt mu, 1x evilmike haunted forest 03:41:50 well, there's a demon one as well, and there's one with a ghost moth and some shadow dragons 03:41:53 @??ghost moth 03:41:53 ghost moth (06y) | Speed: 12 | HD: 13 | Health: 55-94 | AC/EV: 16/10 | Damage: 1805(drain dexterity), 1805(drain strength), 1205(strong poison) | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(104), 02cold, 03poison | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 3460. 03:42:03 that didn't help your map though 03:42:04 I guess it's still too easy 03:42:15 I think ghost moth should be undead. 03:42:17 !lg * map=evilmike haunted forest s=cv 03:42:18 8 games for * (map=evilmike haunted forest): 5x 0.8, 2x 0.8-a, 1x 0.9 03:42:24 oh, 0.9 03:42:28 8* 03:42:47 the trunk one got an extra lich and a profane servitor, plus buffed reapers 03:42:54 evilmike: to be honest, I stopped doing your crypt ending because I found it really annoying 03:42:56 oooh profane servitors 03:43:18 eh 03:43:25 this has curse toes :D 03:43:27 and MURRAY 03:43:39 so much glass and kiting slow zombies 03:44:11 I got rid of the glass (50% of the time), maybe it should just be gone entirely 03:44:40 glass is a bit passe. 03:44:55 due: murray outside vestibule? how revolutionary 03:44:55 @??vampire col:lightred 03:44:55 vampire (04V) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 21-46 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 7, 1505(vampiric) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(48), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 212 | Sp: vampire summon, confuse, invisibility. 03:45:02 elliptic: I think it fits 03:46:14 I miss murray 03:46:32 he's quite common in vestibule now 03:46:42 really? 03:46:49 25% of vestibules or something like that 03:46:52 I left his frequency set as previous 03:47:17 it used to be that he was more common in one vestibule and rarer in the new one, and now it's the same for both 03:47:22 or the other way around 03:47:47 ah 03:49:02 okay, 32k for vampires now, wheee 03:50:47 -!- syraine_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:51:01 evilmike: I was thinking there could be an item (with limited charges) that would enhance your LRD/Shatter so that it could destroy walls. And also, high-powered Disintegration could do that. 03:51:15 could work 03:51:26 I'm not a fan of putting all sorts of random stuff in crypt:5 either for what it's worth 03:51:50 Apart from th edemon variation, I think this is relatively Crypt-standard. 03:52:05 certain demons can (rarely) spawn in crypt 03:52:51 Abomination, shadow demon, tentacled monstrosity, death ooze, soull eater, rakshasa, efree, and kobold demonologist. 03:53:11 sounds like abyss 03:53:13 I'm not entirely sure if I like that variation though, I'll need to think about it a bit more. 03:53:18 st_: Yes, that was the intent. 03:53:32 -!- syraine has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:53:36 -!- syraine_ is now known as syraine 03:53:36 hmm, actually it's just reapers that can spawn in crypt. Although soul eaters are thematic enough 03:55:26 evilmike: http://sprunge.us/CLSf 03:57:19 hm, murray just seems out of place outside the vestibule 03:58:05 well, he doens't have to stay 03:58:43 for uniques, no khufu in the mummy set? I suppose he shows up in crypt often enough anyway 03:59:24 ohhh khufu 03:59:32 forgot about him, whooops 03:59:48 that's a lot of custom monsters 03:59:55 Yeah. 03:59:57 Well, three. 04:00:03 I think the demon set is a bit iffy there... but can it even be picked? 04:00:07 Yes 04:00:13 Actually, perhaps not. 04:00:16 Eh, it can go. 04:00:26 it looks to me like it's impossible for it to generate 04:00:29 no, it is 04:00:33 brnd can be 0 04:00:37 in which case the else is cause 04:00:40 oh, yeah 04:00:41 because the previous if is > 0 04:00:51 anyway, demon is gone 04:01:35 might just merge the demon into ghost, hmmm 04:01:40 shadow fiend would be unpleasant >:) 04:03:18 st_: I think I want to merge the vampire nobles and warriors back into mainline trunk at some point 04:03:28 because vampires on their own are pretty bah 04:03:30 @??vampier knight 04:03:30 unknown monster: "vampier knight" 04:03:33 @??vampire knight 04:03:34 vampire knight (10V) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 44-94 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 33, 1505(vampiric) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(88), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1431 | Sp: vampire summon, paralyse, haste, invisibility, minor healing. 04:03:36 p - 3 chunks of orc flesh {found in in the bailey} 04:03:47 evilmike: complain to dpeg, he said every item :) 04:04:04 03kilobyte * r0dc0d1d719f4 10/crawl-ref/source/maps.cc: Mark a race condition as "FIXME". 04:04:13 03kilobyte * re558a97bbac5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mapdef.cc maps.cc maps.h): Use the common versioning scheme for map cache files. 04:04:30 Keskitalo: <333333333 04:04:42 ... kilobyte, rather. Jeez, what is with auto-complete tonight? 04:07:04 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 04:09:36 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:14:46 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:29:06 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:29:33 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:29:51 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 04:48:40 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 04:54:07 fwiw I think the variety in crypt endings is very nice, considering how bland the actual branch is 04:59:01 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:01:41 I guess I've felt that the more esoteric Crypt:5 maps are sort of separate places, that you kind of have to cross Crypt:1-4 to reach. 05:07:57 i've gotten a lot of positive feedback on the forest one I made, mostly about the look/theme of it. it's too easy compared to the other endings though and the monsters in it probably should be completely redone 05:08:05 03evilmike * r0ed9818f7314 10/crawl-ref/source/items.cc: Don't repeat the word in in loot inscriptions. 05:08:44 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:11:20 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:34:11 evilmike: Does it have tree ghosts? :) (I was thinking it might be cool if sometimes, burned trees spawn a (0 xp) retributionary monster. 05:34:21 i sort of wanted the statues that cast haunt to be haunted trees 05:34:37 but there were too many problems with that 05:34:53 Ah, too bad.. 05:40:09 another thought: perhaps make the map smaller (less focus on the outdoor area), subvault part of it so you get one of {graveyard, pond, something else} and then increase the difficulty from there 05:41:35 Subvaults <3 05:42:37 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1oHRdiklTlU :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 05:43:07 I had a demon Bailey idea that was heavy on subvaults. That could make a Demon Pit map. 05:46:24 with red devils? 05:52:07 Yeah, and crimson/iron imps. 05:52:13 @?? iron devil 05:52:14 iron devil (104) | Speed: 8 | HD: 8 | Health: 28-62 | AC/EV: 16/8 | Damage: 14, 14 | Flags: 05demonic | Res: 06magic(64), 05hellfire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 324. 05:52:29 @?? blue devil 05:52:29 blue devil (024) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 24-52 | AC/EV: 14/10 | Damage: 21 | Flags: 05demonic, fly | Res: 06magic(46), 12cold+++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire, 08holy++ | XP: 224. 05:53:06 Those would be good too. 05:54:03 I'm wondering it he map could be used in both Bailey and Demon Pit. :] 05:54:40 Well, better type it up from my notebook before speculating too much. 05:57:05 Wrong failure message when trying to invoke while silenced (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4858) by Kyrris 05:57:30 kilobyte: portal_branches changes look like a really good clean-up! 06:00:03 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1721-g2f142e0 06:12:10 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: sleep] 06:15:44 yo 06:16:09 I'm not sure I like the name "demon pit" because we already have "snake pit". 06:16:45 but I otherwise like the concept 06:17:15 Keskitalo: what do you think of my monster set so far? 06:17:35 Keskitalo: http://sprunge.us/HVjF 06:20:53 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 06:26:38 due: there's a problem: your vault should cooperate with due_tower_of_silence to ensure only one of them is placed 06:26:49 kilobyte: true 06:26:52 or rather, that if this one gets in, the tower isn't placed 06:26:54 kilobyte: I'll uniq them together, good point 06:26:57 since the conflict is one-way 06:34:04 do you not like slime pit either then? 06:34:49 orc pit has a nice ring to it 06:35:02 st_: oh, hm 06:36:41 kilobyte: yo're right, that does slightly compliciate it 06:39:20 I see no ready facility to do that 06:39:43 actually, I do 06:39:46 so indeed a two-way conflict might be simplest even if it's not fully needed 06:39:57 validate chunk which returns false if you.uniques("Jory") 06:47:47 validate will force a builder failure, which is not good (but benign if there are many vaults available, and on D:19-27 there are) 06:48:42 but that's a very, very minor concern 06:48:42 I'm looking at ways to do this at map selection time 06:49:13 needed to fix for example troves looking at skills from the time the map was initially compiled (ie, almost always 0, unless you edit them while Crawl is running) 06:49:46 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 06:49:47 for now, you can do this in the validate chunk 06:50:41 -!- mikee_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:50:47 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 06:54:53 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 06:58:34 -!- casmith789 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:05:15 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: Want to be different? Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 07:09:58 kilobyte: yes, that would be good 07:10:50 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:12:47 hi edlothiol 07:12:47 hi 07:13:28 yay first win in two years! 07:13:35 well first time I've properly played crawl in two years 07:13:38 due: ! 07:14:32 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 07:15:02 it was fun 07:18:43 ghallberg: :) 07:19:22 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:26:40 I think we need a mask for mimicconversoin 07:29:33 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:30:48 okay, I think I'm almost completely happy with this map 07:31:00 It needs tiles, a bit more padding... 07:34:00 Zaba, evilmike, comments appreciated! http://sprunge.us/IJJC 07:34:06 !tell dpeg http://sprunge.us/IJJC What do you think? 07:34:07 due: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 07:34:52 hmm.. darkgrey? 07:35:33 Oh, I'm not sure about that 07:35:40 I haven't played with teh colours 07:36:23 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 07:36:52 on this line: +---cc..G1.d.1G..cccQcQcQcQc.d.cQcQcqcQccc+D+cccc the lower-case 'q' seems to be a typo for Q 07:36:56 I'm not sure what else would work though 07:37:05 You're right, thanks 07:37:55 I could just do away with the lines. 07:39:19 Yeah, I'll just do away with the lines. 07:39:43 maybe secret doors could use some more randomization (in the two more or less symmetrical chambers near the bottom, either chamber could get a secret door randomly, the other getting a non-secret one, for example) 07:40:07 but generally, looks very nice :> 07:40:15 Which heelpfully fixes the rather spoiler-y "if oyu want straight down the colour there ar eno traps" 07:40:24 Andgood iea, I have randomised that. 07:40:47 and thanks, I am very happy wiht th elayout 07:41:33 okay, sleep, I will consider i more tomorrow 07:41:45 FilthyApe the Severer (L13 MiHu) ASSERT(!you.turn_is_over) in 'state.cc' at line 173 failed on turn 24577. (Lair:7) 07:42:24 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 07:42:28 kilobyte: MASSIVE" 07:42:28 dpeg: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 07:42:33 erm, MASSIVE!!! 07:43:22 !messages 07:43:23 (1/2) Cryp71c said (11h 17m 3s ago): I see at some point the @ had its to-hit messaging commented out. Any plans on bringing this back (if not, I can remove some stuff from combat code) 07:43:29 !messages 07:43:29 (1/1) due said (9m 22s ago): http://sprunge.us/IJJC What do you think? 07:44:17 !tell Cryp71c Yes, we want some form of feedback ultimately. The best way is not clear. Instead of @ (which was inspired by 4.1), we could also have a weapon equivalent of z? 07:44:17 dpeg: OK, I'll let Cryp71c know. 07:45:33 due: looks awesome 08:02:23 !tell napkin Please talk to whoever is responsible for CAO! Make them bring back 0.5 so that the high score can be beaten..... 08:02:27 syraine: OK, I'll let napkin know. 08:06:20 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 08:07:44 syraine: isn't CAO rax? 08:07:55 That's right! 08:08:10 Rax, ;_; DD/all Crawl high score - - - 08:13:30 syraine: what is the matter? 08:13:50 Nothing is the matter. 08:14:15 I am saying, with a degree of humor, that perhaps 0.5 should be put back on the table for Akrasiac. There's no real way to get the high score, after all. 08:16:05 Isn't the highscore just that 35k run of elliptic's? 08:16:40 syraine: if it is nothing, then you shouldn't ping the cat lady. She is busy. 08:16:46 "just", I know, but it's at least beatable in theory. Not bug-derived or something. 08:16:53 The cat lady. 08:17:04 It's not bug-derived, no. It used magic mapping. 08:17:20 Dpeg, I cannot tell if you are serious or not... =D 08:17:24 dds still have magic mapping don't they? 08:17:28 Not that sort. 08:17:39 It's almost as good for finding stairs ime. 08:17:47 absolutely not. 08:17:49 The highlevel version is, anyway. 08:17:59 You can't find the high-level version on D:2 08:18:04 FilthyApe the Severer (L14 MiHu) ASSERT(!you.turn_is_over) in 'state.cc' at line 173 failed on turn 32825. (Orc:2) 08:19:16 syraine: I am serious. Ping non-regular channel users (like r-a-x or the green snark or the nap king) only when you really want something from them. 08:19:53 As I had no idea of this rule, it is immaterial to me. 08:19:57 I'll avoid it. 08:20:14 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 08:21:51 I would not have had phyphor not mentioned rax already, in any case. 08:22:12 -!- syraine was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [syraine] 08:22:19 -!- syraine has joined ##crawl-dev 08:22:22 It wasn't on purpose. 08:22:34 syraine: you'll avoid it?! 08:22:39 It wasn't on purpose. 08:22:45 -annoyed.- 08:22:48 It is a matter of politeness and common sense. 08:23:05 Scroll. 08:23:22 Without prescience there's no way I could have known, as the person before me mentioned them by name. 08:23:58 syraine: not knowing something is one thing, to say "I'll avoid it" is another 08:24:09 Allow me to repeat myself. 08:24:13 It wasn't on purpose. 08:24:33 Ah, I see that "it" might have had two different meanings here. 08:24:56 In any case, I am happy that her Majesty is still on board, despite move and new job. 08:25:09 Mm. 08:25:41 Oh, lightbulb. She's Rachael Elizabeth. 08:26:36 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:31:35 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:43:13 syraine, its common IRC courtesy. 08:43:13 Cryp71c: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 08:43:25 dpeg, that screen COULD be on 'w' 08:43:28 !messages 08:43:29 (1/1) dpeg said (59m 11s ago): Yes, we want some form of feedback ultimately. The best way is not clear. Instead of @ (which was inspired by 4.1), we could also have a weapon equivalent of z? 08:44:09 dpeg, would be nice to not have to do raw calculations all the time to see if you're at min delay, or whether your str is high enough...and as we weight dex and str higher for melee combat, that will become more important. 08:44:34 Cryp71c, explain. 08:44:52 I noticed you invoked these rules previously, around the point where you were calling me a fourteen-year old. 08:47:17 syraine, you realize I've been afk for like 10 hours and dont recall you having stated anything about you being 14 years old? 08:47:34 afk daughter crying 08:47:44 Cryp71c, that was what you said, and I have no idea about you being AFK or not. 08:47:51 But whatever. 08:49:28 -!- medgno has joined ##crawl-dev 08:50:32 dpeg: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4855 mind if i convert that to an implementable? seems like a good suggestion to me 08:52:18 Ah, the amazing things that crop up when you do SEAK 08:57:19 -!- Fyren has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:03:34 FilthyApe the Executioner (L17 MiHu) ASSERT(!you.turn_is_over) in 'state.cc' at line 173 failed on turn 46488. (D:19) 09:12:34 MarvinPA: done it myself, good catch 09:12:42 cool, thanks :) 09:17:04 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 09:18:03 -!- joosa has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:21:41 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:23:32 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:26:54 -!- st__ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:28:36 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:29:23 -!- st__ is now known as st_ 09:44:20 !lm . milestone=escaped the abyss! 09:44:20 No milestones for syraine (milestone=escaped the abyss!). 09:44:36 !lm . place=abyss milestone=escaped 09:44:37 No milestones for syraine (place=abyss milestone=escaped). 09:44:44 !lm . place=abyss 09:44:44 196. [2011-11-04] Xenene the Skirmisher (L1 SEAK) escaped from the Abyss! 09:44:54 !lm . place=abyss milestone=escaped from the Abyss! 09:44:54 156. [2011-11-04] Xenene the Skirmisher (L1 SEAK) escaped from the Abyss! 09:45:27 !lm . place=abyss milestone=escaped from the Abyss! xl<10 09:45:28 6. [2011-11-04] Xenene the Skirmisher (L1 SEAK) escaped from the Abyss! 09:45:39 !lm . place=abyss milestone=escaped from the Abyss! xl<10 s=xl 09:45:39 6 milestones for syraine (place=abyss milestone=escaped from the Abyss! xl<10): 2x 8, 2x 1, 2x 9 09:46:24 !lm . place=abyss milestone=escaped from the Abyss! xl<19 s=xl 09:46:25 30 milestones for syraine (place=abyss milestone=escaped from the Abyss! xl<19): 6x 14, 4x 17, 4x 18, 3x 10, 3x 12, 2x 15, 2x 9, 2x 16, 2x 1, 2x 8 09:46:58 !lm . place=abyss milestone=escaped from the Abyss! xl<19 s=race 09:46:59 30 milestones for syraine (place=abyss milestone=escaped from the Abyss! xl<19): 4x Sludge Elf, 4x Demonspawn, 4x Centaur, 3x Troll, 3x Spriggan, 3x Deep Dwarf, 2x Mountain Dwarf, 1x Kobold, 1x Hill Orc, 1x Minotaur, 1x Vampire, 1x High Elf, 1x White Draconian, 1x Kenku 09:47:03 wrong channel? 09:47:08 oh >< 09:47:11 :P 09:47:12 god damn it 09:49:52 you should be using a query anyway 09:51:05 -!- jle_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:55:53 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:57:06 syraine, When precisely did I say you were 14? 09:57:21 er, yesterdayish 09:57:30 I don't want to quarrel 09:58:16 03MarvinPA * rf4af87a016bb 10/crawl-ref/source/status.cc: Make the Nausea status light brown instead of yellow so it's not the same colour as "Hungry" 09:59:23 syraine, I like to be precise on what i said and what I didn't say. I'll look back over the logs for the last day. 09:59:41 mmkay, sure 09:59:43 And since I can't precisely recall, I'd like to look up the context in which I said it. 10:00:02 I will check my logs 10:02:31 Yeah I don't see anything on the channel logs for the 4th. I'm pretty confident it wasn't me. 10:02:39 no, it was you 10:02:47 I remember because it was quite scathing 10:03:18 Something to do with thinking that I was being snarky 10:03:27 Hrm, well..I'm heading out for the day, the channel has complete logs which is what I'm using as a reference...so either your mistaken on the day or else I didn't say it. 10:03:40 I'm pretty sure you're wrong, because you said it 10:03:40 I'll fuzz by a couple days and look later. 10:03:43 mmkay 10:03:53 I am GMT+10 10:03:56 yeah you did say it I remember 10:04:08 st_, any time reference? 10:04:15 it was about 22 hours ago 10:04:46 to which my reply was something like, if I am behaving improperly, let me look silly 10:05:49 it was during the huge pointless waste of time discussion on MD and how everyone was being a dick to everyone else, maybe you guys can sort it out by pm instead of rehashing it here :P 10:05:55 ~2011-11-03T18:48:11 in UTC+4 10:06:12 I did not even want to begin hashing 10:06:17 hashing was the last thing on my mind 10:06:25 that is good! 10:06:27 syraine, yeah, I found it...was 2 days ago according to the logs. 10:06:37 22 hours is not two days 10:06:39 syraine, regarding dropping your snarky attitude, which you still seem to maintain. 10:06:42 http://tozt.net/crawl/%23%23crawl-dev-20111103.log 10:06:45 but I understand 10:06:47 syraine, feel free to look^ 10:06:51 again, heading out 10:06:56 Cryp71c, thank you 10:07:11 I believe my cunning retort was 'do not fight fire with flame' 10:07:31 this sounds like rehashing to me 10:07:39 he's being mean 10:10:29 -!- Brannock has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:10:38 This is ##crawl-dev. 10:14:49 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:14:58 Madness? This is ##crawl-dev! 10:20:51 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:26:13 -!- joosa has joined ##crawl-dev 10:27:47 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:28:08 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 10:29:45 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 10:51:03 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 10:52:33 Musing about monster religion. Deep elves pretty clearly worship Makhleb and/or Yred. Possibly we could give the priests a choice of random spellbooks to match? Would the AI blow itself up if given Major Destruction? 10:54:27 Are the Sacred Serpent types in Naga Priests? If so, Priests of who? Could possibly be a random draw from Chei, Jivya and Lugonu? 10:54:44 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 10:56:49 Deep dwarves worship Yred or possibly Kiku. Perhaps some of them should worship Xom? We give them a spell (so-and-so calls upon Xom!) and you get a turn of Xom worship? 10:57:20 General thoughts - late game priests (especially HE ones) are given spells chosen to-be-scary. Anything other than Summon 1s and Hellfire, if they cast it, reduces their scare-level proportionately. 10:57:44 s/HE/DE and Drac 10:58:08 there are no priests who summon 1s 10:58:31 I could've sworn I'd seen a DE High Priest summon a 1. 10:58:46 @??deep elf high priest 10:58:46 deep elf high priest (09e) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 39-62 | AC/EV: 3/13 | Damage: 14 | Flags: evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(88), 05hellfire | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1043 | Sp: demon, hellfire burst (3d15), minor healing, smiting (7-17), animate dead. 10:58:52 I think the answer to all these statements and questions is "no" 10:58:57 "demon" means 3-4 10:59:13 I don't know if even elf:5 DEs count as late-game enemies 11:00:04 @??deep elf demonologist 11:00:05 deep elf demonologist (08e) | Speed: 10 | HD: 12 | Health: 43-66 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 12 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(96) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1135 | Sp: demon, banishment, greater demon, call imp. 11:00:08 Well, myself I do tend to do elf:5 in the mid game. And die :) 11:00:28 is greater demon just 2s? 11:00:42 1s and 2s 11:00:53 okay, so those guys are late-game enemies 11:01:09 but what is up with priests in general getting attention 11:01:10 @??deep elf bladmaster 11:01:10 unknown monster: "deep elf bladmaster" 11:01:31 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:01:37 Wensley: You missed my first two musings. I want to give the monsters consistent religion. 11:02:02 isn't it enough that they worship poorly-specified gods? :P 11:02:28 what would be nice is to make "high priest" and "sorcerer" more distinct 11:02:32 especially for orcs 11:02:55 I think there was a discussion about this a while ago, wasn't there? 11:03:03 probably 11:03:17 making high priests more like PC beogh worshipers 11:03:38 I don't care so much about making monsters more like the player equivalent 11:03:43 this is pretty hard to make work well 11:04:09 I'm not into that either, actually. But I *would* like to make them worship a specified God, even if it's randomly drawn from a list for each monster. 11:04:10 but differentiating monsters from each other better would be good 11:04:38 I htink it was more like "make it so that high priests don't actively do things that beogh hates for the player to do", for consistency 11:05:16 So rather than giving each HE Priest Animate Dead *and* Hellfire, they either worship Makhleb (get Hellfire, 1s-2s) or Yred (get Animate Dead, some kinda Pain wave?). 11:05:42 monster only gods are mysterious and cool 11:05:47 And for some reason every time I try to say "Deep Elf High Priest" it comes out "High Elf Priest" instead. 11:05:57 i kinda like the nameless monster gods, yeah 11:06:09 Monster only gods would be mysterious and cool if they did anything other than summon demon, hellfire, animate dead and smite. 11:06:23 that is true 11:07:18 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 11:07:29 We don't have "nameless monster gods" we have "generic evil priest monster god." I think it'd be much more interesting if there were priests worshipping the cool, specific stable of gods we now have. 11:07:37 Druids, for example. Clearly worship Fedhas, I like those guys. 11:07:43 @??spriggan druid 11:07:44 spriggan druid (03i) | Speed: 16 | HD: 12 | Health: 28-45 | AC/EV: 1/25 | Damage: 16 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(112) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1095 | Sp: sunray (3d19), awaken forest, caniforms, minor healing. 11:07:58 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 11:08:24 since recently acquirement no longer give the suckiest kind of weapons, for example clubs, could some -'s be removed too? 11:08:33 -4,-2 demon trident "Boefikic" {pierce, rElec SInv} seems a bit mean for a acquirement 11:08:36 do spriggan druids leave you alone if you worship fedhas? 11:08:51 Oh... probably not. They should, though. 11:09:55 none of the spriggan druid abilities are fedhas ablities 11:10:05 so, maybe they don't actually worship fedhas as yet ? 11:10:20 Eronarn: they don't have to be actual fedhas abilities ... 11:10:48 Eronarn: That's what I'm arguing, that they can worship Makhleb, they can "call upon Makhleb" when they cast stuff, and not get the same Makhleb spells you get. 11:11:01 Not exactly the same, anyway. 11:11:04 i think we should try and keep as close as possible 11:11:12 I think not 11:11:23 druidic rites are not available to the player ;-) 11:11:41 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:11:56 Although also, I suppose the Spriggan Druid may worship some other nature God; or he may even be a spellcaster and not a proper priest at all. 11:13:56 I suppose they might work with Yggdrasil 11:13:59 But what I really want are monster priests/worshippers of Cheibriados (esp. Nagas), Jiyva, Lugonu, Nemelex, etc. 11:14:00 -!- Fyren has joined ##crawl-dev 11:14:27 you want monsters that wield decks ? 11:14:29 Oh! Deep elf blademasters could worship Okie, and get his spells and the associated messages. 11:14:45 SamB - they don't have to wield decks they can draw cards from inventory :) 11:15:01 but then some of the deep elves worship different gods 11:15:19 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:15:46 Zannick: This would be a good source for vaults. If you put a Makhleb altar in Elf, it always spawns a bunch of priests and a high priest with the Makhleb spellbook, and so forth. 11:15:53 I think it is fine to have plenty of atheist monsters 11:16:10 like blademasters really don't need a god 11:17:39 Well, I'm an atheist myself IRL, but I don't think that's realistic. True, most monsters keep their religion *private*, and don't try to shove it in your face. So Orc Wizards clearly some of them worship Sif and not Beogh, given they're guarding her altars. 11:18:13 the game actually believes that all monster orcs worship beogh, fyi 11:18:24 (this is relevant for zin recite) 11:18:27 nope 11:18:31 1/7 orcs are atheists 11:18:35 oh, okay 11:18:39 lol 11:18:41 ha 11:18:44 except it's not actually 1/7 because of bands 11:18:59 1/7 of all orcs are lava orcs in disguise 11:19:14 Anyway, so religion is clearly less prevalent in deep elves, who are better educated and have lower divorce rates. 11:19:22 go read the code, there's like two exceptions where there's randomness: orcs and angels 11:19:41 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:20:05 But I do think that blademasters could have, for example, a 50% chance on an Okie spellbook instead of an Arcane spellbook. 11:20:16 wtf is an arcane spellbook 11:20:22 But this might be a hassle in terms of the religion code, since it'd then need to check for some monsters which spellbook they'd been assigned. 11:20:23 and why are blademasters having spellbooks 11:20:23 blademasters don't have spells 11:20:29 @??deep elf blade master 11:20:29 I'm not sure it would make much difference if some monsters worshipped gods, like how would orc wizards benefit from sif 11:20:29 unknown monster: "deep elf blade master" 11:20:45 Blademasters cast haste on themselves, don't they? 11:20:46 @??deep elf blademaster 11:20:46 deep elf blademaster (11e) | Speed: 15 | HD: 16 | Health: 89-115 | AC/EV: 0/25 | Damage: 25, 25 | Res: 06magic(128) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 3620. 11:20:47 no 11:20:53 Oh, I thought they did. 11:21:09 they just permanently have high speed (which is dumb) 11:21:31 @??deep elf knight 11:21:32 deep elf knight (10e) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 39-60 | AC/EV: 0/15 | Damage: 14 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: 06magic(88) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 795 | Sp: magic dart (3d5), slow, haste, blink / throw flame (3d8), confuse, invisibility, magic dart (3d5) / throw frost (3d8), cantrip, haste, throw flame (3d8), magic dart (3d5), invisibility. 11:21:58 Well, you don't want them wasting their time throwign magic puffs at you, so they obviously shouldn't get those spells. 11:23:36 dpeg: uhm, "MASSIVE"... what? 11:23:49 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:24:31 DrPraetor: sometimes spells are there to weaken stuff 11:24:34 But can we agree that the religion code should have the ability to check monster spellbooks? And we can use that capacity a lot or rarely as-desired. 11:24:50 Eronarn: Yes, but blademasters are supposed to be terrifying. 11:25:01 ... 11:25:06 what are you talking about 11:25:15 blademasters do not have spells, and they are not getting spells 11:25:33 the whole point of the monster is that they are deep elves who DON'T CAST SPELLS 11:25:39 that is exactly their flavor 11:25:49 Eronarn: Didn't you just say that giving them permanently high speed is dumb? 11:25:51 * DrPraetor is confused. 11:26:09 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:26:36 DrPraetor: it's dumb because humanoid monsters should have action speed 10 (and generally movement speed 10 too) 11:27:13 That's going to make it very difficult to generate a frightening humanoid without giving them magic, prayers, magical equipment, something. 11:28:43 sorry about your lack of creativity 11:28:45 better luck next time 11:31:02 deep elf strawman (e) | Speed: 10 | HD: 50 | Health: 400-500 | AC/EV: 30/40 | Damage: 75, 75 | Res: magic(256) | Chunks: contaminated | XP: a zillion. <- How is this monster scary? It's hell on a melee fighter with no way to just walk away from it. 11:31:40 Well, they already cheat by dualwielding, so cheating with extra speed doesn't seem like a big leap. 11:31:54 they're unnaturally fast 11:31:59 Furthermore, you really think giving the DEBM a speed of 25 is more humanoid-breaking than giving him dragonhide? 11:32:18 technically a min delay short blades wielder has an action speed of 20 11:32:46 Eronarn: I really wish I hadn't nerfed a bunch of speed 11/12s 11:33:12 Eronarn: speed 10 makes the game degenerate into chess if you want to play effectively 11:33:35 'degenerate' 11:33:36 chess, as everyone knows, the worst game 11:33:38 -!- joosa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:33:48 kilobyte: yes, because 'chess except the other player gets two moves in a row every tenth move' is much more fun than chess 11:33:51 chess is not that interesting a roguelike 11:33:58 not actual chess -- lame chess, with HP and dice 11:34:08 the pawn hits! 11:34:08 wizard chess 11:34:12 no, I don't have anything against chess... but let's not have Crawl force you to alpha-beta every move 11:34:35 Are you dissing... was that wizard chess or battle chess? One of them had the chess pieces casting spells, the other was just chess with funny animation. 11:34:39 and everyone moves like a king 11:34:57 warlock 11:34:58 SamB: once again, we're behind nethack 11:35:16 nethack had sokoban boards 11:35:32 and quake has chess! 11:35:39 quake has chess ? 11:35:41 Anyway, monster religion! Blademasters can stay agnostic, I don't care. 11:36:04 actually i think they worship GOD_NAMELESS too 11:36:13 kilobyte: Speed 10 to me means mostly "I can run away from this without it getting free hits on me". Tactically I don't think it comes into play that much other than that. 11:36:46 But there should be naga Chei worshippers, who slow you, and spawn snails, and get super-huge numerical bonuses for wearing ponderous armour which they do. 11:36:52 "except from randomized energy" 11:37:04 DrPraetor: wouldn't slowing you cost them piety ? 11:37:11 why would they spawn snails 11:37:24 and ponderous armour is not a chei ability anymore 11:37:40 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:37:44 monsters with step from time 11:37:55 give step from time to khufu 11:38:12 give khufu tomb, step from time, and ddoor 11:38:26 and a large shield 11:38:32 doing it the ugly thing way seems reasonable i guess, with speed whatever and then action cost increased/decreased as appropriate 11:38:38 in terms of making monster speeds make more sense that is 11:38:40 SamB - I'm behind the curve. I'm going to assume that one of the reasons that Monsters try to kill you on sight is because they know you're running through the dungeon, murdering everything you see. 11:38:52 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:38:52 SamB - so when you show up, they'll burn any piety they have. 11:38:54 MarvinPA_: yeah, that makes a lot more sense for most cases 11:38:54 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 11:38:54 SamB: "Quess". http://www.quakewiki.net/archives/retroquake.planetquake.gamespy.com/blog/indexa09e.html?p=175 11:39:23 though humanoid things that run faster than humans are problematic since the player can't do that regardless of how good a fighter they are, unless they cast swiftness or find boots 11:39:46 monsters can do lots of things that the player can't do regardless of how good they are so it's hardly a big issue 11:40:18 DrPraetor: monsters try to kill you even if you're a pacifist 11:40:23 MarvinPA: i think it's a reasonably big one for 'racename classname' monsters where you'd expect them to be quite similar to a PC 11:40:33 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 11:40:41 it makes a bit more sense for uniques if it's something mentioned in their description 11:40:47 Wensley: So, fine. One of Ely's powers should be that monsters don't spend Piety trying to kill you :). 11:41:12 DrPraetor: I don't think we need any justification for why monsters are trying to kill you other than "THIS IS THE MOST DANGEROUS PLACE IN THE WORLD" 11:41:26 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 11:45:50 -!- joosa has joined ##crawl-dev 11:47:54 -!- jeanjacques_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:48:33 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:49:43 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:58:02 @??fiend 11:58:03 unknown monster: "fiend" 11:58:07 @??shadow fiend 11:58:07 Shadow Fiend (061) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 79-121 | AC/EV: 15/6 | Damage: 25, 1513(drain), 1513(drain) | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 06magic(312), 02cold++, 10elec, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 2771 | Sp: b.cold (3d27), b.draining (3d22), torment symbol, dispel undead (3d27). 11:58:28 Should monsters without the evil flag be allowed to worship evil gods? 11:59:37 worship of evil gods should imply evil flag (if it doesn't already) 12:06:11 -!- syraine has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:07:56 DrPraetor: of course 12:07:59 see: orcs 12:08:09 Beogh is evil? 12:08:16 oh right i forgot beogh is evil 12:08:29 yes, because the devs are awful 12:09:07 -!- jeanjacques_ is now known as jeanjacques 12:11:28 So Fedhas no longer gives sunray? 12:11:50 what, fedhas once gave sunray? 12:12:14 he gives sunbeam or something 12:12:20 "sunlight" 12:12:21 sunlight 12:12:31 That's not the same as the druid's sun zot, though? 12:12:39 it's entirely different 12:13:06 it backlights things, gets rid of water, and kills vampires (unless it doesn't anymore) 12:14:21 how do you tell what area it affects, though ? 12:15:05 doesn't affect vampires and AFAIK never did 12:15:15 sunlight that is 12:15:22 it should cause mild discomfort 12:16:24 The vampire squints. 12:16:26 sunlight is described as a gentle area effect, sunray is brief and focused (dealing damage) 12:16:36 # 12:16:37 ### 12:16:38 # 12:16:45 that's sunlight aoe i think 12:16:48 could do something to vampires, yeah 12:17:40 maybe I got it confused with decomposition killing some rotty undead 12:18:09 03MarvinPA * rd1f6b3ee253c 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-damage.cc: Fix sandblast displaying an empty line when cast 12:18:10 or, we can say it this way: both spells do 1.5x the damage to vampires :p 12:18:33 (it being 0 for just being shined at) 12:21:28 Doesn't Okie-haste give a different message than the Haste spell? Wigaf should give that message, even if he casts normal haste. 12:22:04 okawaru haste is finesse 12:22:12 different effect too 12:23:07 So Wigaf should probably cast finnesse, but even if he casts Haste, he should give the Okie finesse *message*. 12:23:32 that would be misleading! 12:25:52 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:monster_religions 12:26:54 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:28:03 kilobyte: MASSIVE commit 12:28:54 dpeg: way unfinished though 12:29:15 !tell Wensley Now is a good time to add you Hex ideas to the wiki! 12:29:15 dpeg: OK, I'll let Wensley know. 12:30:28 MarvinPA: being told that nausea is expiring has one quite important use: you know when you'll be able to eat food. However, that use would be rendered useless if the message stopped rest at appropriate times. 12:30:37 (ie, if you are hungry) 12:31:06 rest or autoexplore that is -- there's little point in actually resting 12:31:55 I just wonder whether carnivores/gourmanders should have run/rest stopped at satiated or above 12:32:43 i don't quite follow 12:32:51 you mean the message that it's expiring should interrupt rest/travel? 12:33:14 I had an idea, or remembered someone elses idea, of the demon summonings (including imp) being Hexes/Summoning, Hexes skill determining how long the demon stays charmed. 12:33:53 I'd have two messages: "Your stomach is not upset anymore." (when you can't eat more) and "blah blah, and you feel like eating something" 12:34:11 with the former not stopping rest/travel and the latter stopping 12:34:25 ohhh i see, a different message for nausea ending when you could then eat something 12:34:30 yeah, that seems reasonable 12:34:42 agreed 12:34:43 Summoning skill would affect duration in a way - making the unfriendly demon disappear faster. 12:34:54 Keskitalo: go add it to the Hex wiki, along with comments onother spelss 12:35:05 perhaps even it could look whether you're carrying spoilable food, but this might be nitpicking too much 12:35:16 ok, I will - I had some other Hexes ideas too. 12:36:45 I agree nausea ending should stop rest/travel, yeah 12:37:08 not sure whether your hunger level or available food should really matter 12:37:45 so what logic would be the best? a) stop if hungry (spriggans and mummies can't get nauseated anyway), b) stop if can eat chunks (so gourmand would always stop), c) stop if can eat chunks and you have a chunk on you, d) stop if hungry -or- can eat chunks and have one 12:38:34 nausea expiring is not interesting if it has no effect, I'd say 12:38:36 stop regardless IMO... no need for additional complications, and I can see people resting off nausea even if they aren't hungry 12:38:55 elliptic: but why? (resting off) 12:39:23 so that they will be sure that they can eat? like, right before a fight (going down to v:8, say) 12:39:47 other status effects generally interrupt resting when they wear off, no? like sickness does even if you are at full health 12:40:17 just seems like unnecessary complication that will occasionally cause people to rest for 90 turns longer than they wanted, to use more complicated logic 12:40:50 I wouldn't mind (a) either though 12:41:07 the other choices make no sense to me... you might well want to eat permafood as soon as nausea wears off 12:41:10 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:41:12 nothing special about chunks 12:41:28 step whenever your ability to eat changes 12:41:42 phyphor: yes, that's what I'm suggesting 12:41:49 * phyphor agrres with you 12:42:00 so let's take that 12:42:02 it doesn't have "no effect" if you aren't hungry... nausea wearing off means you can eat up to engorged 12:42:26 but then I think that shoudl count for going engorged -> very full (outside of nausea) 12:42:34 or (nothing) -> hungry 12:42:36 why would you want to be engorged when going to V:8? 12:42:48 kilobyte: uh, what? is that a serious question? 12:42:48 the only level that does something is Very Hungry 12:42:51 ....... 12:43:02 lots of stuff causes hunger 12:43:06 Wait a moment 12:43:07 and if hungry, you know you can go lower 12:43:08 to spam firestorm maybe? or any number of other hungering spells 12:43:14 why are staves in staves and rods in M/F? 12:43:16 I am confused. 12:43:20 or to use berserk multiple times without having to eat in between 12:43:23 What's a rod base weapon type? 12:43:27 or to spam rods 12:43:37 healing spam, etc etc 12:43:37 or to face a pack of hungry ghosts 12:43:52 I *always* try to be engorged when going somewhere dangerous unless I really have nothing that causes hunger that I might do 12:44:24 elliptic: so you eat permafood before tackling branch ends? 12:44:34 yes 12:45:01 that's a pretty far-fetched scenario... so I'd like to have a default stop in one case, so those who somehow want to gorge on permafood can change this in their config 12:45:11 interesting, that never occurred to me 12:45:13 kilobyte: far-fetched? no 12:45:16 ie, different messages 12:45:23 kilobyte: yes, different message is good. 12:45:28 lua can then play with it 12:45:34 if you want different messages for hungry vs not hungry, that's fine, yes 12:45:43 no need for lua, just runrest_stop (or what's it called) 12:45:58 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 12:46:17 but seriously, think a little bit about the benefits of being engorged and the drawbacks (hint: there's only one, and it involves eating royal jellies to cure stat loss) 12:46:25 runrest_stop_message and runrest_ignore_message 12:46:25 I'd like to again suggest, as we're talking hunger, that rings that modify hunger status should auto-ID. They are often easy enough to identify after sufficient turns and it's frustrating to have ot note outside the game that a ring is +hunger if you don't want to waste a ?id on it 12:46:45 elliptic: eating ambrosia to restore mp and confuse yourself! 12:46:57 marvinpa: oh right :P 12:47:03 phyphor: you can inscribe it ... 12:47:19 SamB: will the inscription appear on all other rings of the same type? 12:47:27 good question 12:47:49 otherwise you'll end up un-cursing and dropping a ring, and then pick another one up later 12:47:51 oh 12:47:52 crawl doesn't have global inscriptions, no 12:47:59 Just a question: I put on a ring of Sinv earlier 12:48:01 and we can't do delayed auto-id 12:48:03 and it was unided 12:48:06 but it wouldn't autoID 12:48:15 (Unseen horror became visible) 12:48:22 might be nice just for inscribing recharge/enchant armour i guess, probably not much else though 12:48:34 phyphor: what about this: not auto-id hunger immediately, but on the next hunger status change that occurs later than 100 turns after putting on the ring 12:48:47 kilobyte: if we can do delayed IDing 12:48:53 ie, it still has some cost attached 12:49:00 can we do something like that for SInv ? 12:49:07 I figured it was easier to ask for "make it auto-id" than "change how things can auto-id" 12:49:30 but delayed ID works better, yes 12:49:52 I don't see anything wrong with making hunger ID immediately, personally... "ring of hunger" is always cursed, so that's already a cost 12:49:58 (although if you know your stomach changes with gourmand there's an argument that rings that modify hunger + or - could also ID) 12:50:01 SamB: for SInv, it could identify whenever a mon_info is assigned the invisible flag 12:50:04 "you feel your metabolism change" 12:50:30 elliptic: it is? I kind of recall uncursed rings. 12:50:38 me too! 12:50:44 I think they'r elike 90% cursed or something silly 12:51:04 and/or 90% of all cursed rings 12:51:06 something like that 12:51:14 or maybe that's just how ti feels 12:51:22 the former sounds more likely 12:51:38 'cause I'm pretty sure I get teleportation about as often? 12:51:59 oh, yeah, cursed id = tele, cursed, not ID = hunger almsot 100% of the time 12:52:40 kilobyte: always cursed unless generated by acquirement 12:52:48 found it: _random_ rings are cursed iff cursed or tele or one_chance_in(50) 12:53:04 elliptic: I don't think so ... 12:53:07 not if randart or placed by a vault, possibly including "any ring" 12:53:09 maybe there are vaults ? 12:53:12 or generated by a vault, yes 12:53:22 for randarts, you'd want to ID it anyway 12:53:33 so I don't care about them for purposes of use-IDing 12:53:57 I was talking about egorings ;-P 12:55:28 DrPraetor: you recall random gods? 12:55:33 as phyphor said, teleportation autoIDs and nearly every other cursed ring is hunger... it just isn't very interesting as a complicated ID game 12:55:52 elliptic: should have more cursed items, if you ask me 12:55:56 yes 12:55:59 phyphor: actually, there's 24 other rings, so the "one_chance_in(50)" still gives only a 2/3 chance the ring in question is hunger 12:56:17 if anything, tele shouldn't ID until you tele, and hunger should ID straight away (as it has an immediate effect) 12:56:19 kilobyte: how many of those don't auto-ID on wearing ? 12:56:19 doesn't negative slaying also make the ring hunger? 12:56:21 -!- medgno has quit [Quit: Quitting] 12:56:23 er, cursed 12:56:41 sometimes 12:56:48 you can get uncursed negative slaying 12:56:48 but, the long and short of it is that you can personally ID hunger (and -hunger) but the game doesn't ID it for you 12:56:54 this is not the crawl way, as I understand it 12:57:03 12 rings auto-id 12:57:07 and there is no mechanism to globally inscribe all rings 12:57:12 (of a type) 12:57:39 perhaps we can change =hunger and =sustenance to work more subtly? 12:57:48 no! 12:58:10 therefore it's entirely possible to player-ID a ring, without character-IDing a ring, which is odd, and can cause problems where you drop a ring yo know is bad and auto-pick up another of the same type later 12:58:25 oh, any ring with a negative plus will be cursed, except for a chance on slaying 12:58:35 yeah... the others ID on wield, of course 12:59:08 all other than slaying, right 12:59:30 I'd suggest changing that one_chance_in(50) to one_chance_in(25) or something like that, regardless of what we do about IDing hunger 12:59:30 what happens when you wield slaying? 12:59:34 can you slay stuff with it ? 13:00:08 elliptic: +1, more cursed rings would be good 13:00:36 oh, we ought to have "rings of large jewels" that give pluses to UC ;-P 13:00:36 also it is a little strange that inaccuracy doesn't have an especially high chance of being cursed 13:00:58 it changes the ID game from "wear rings" to "if you have ?id id rings, else if you have ?rc wear rings, else do nothing" 13:01:30 elliptic: why? Since it will catch you only when un-ided, it has a better chance to sneak through this way. 13:01:33 people seem to always ignore ?dc 13:01:44 elliptic: It would be much less interesting if it was. I once wore inaccuracy for five floors in the earlygame thinking it was helping me. 13:01:46 kilobyte: you could say the same thing about hunger though 13:01:52 And being very frustrated with my shortblade. 13:01:56 "preferably, transmogriphy to octorock first so you can do 8 with one ?rc" 13:02:01 and if we increase the chance of other amulets being cursed, it won't be that clear 13:02:16 hmm 13:02:18 elliptic: hunger will make itself obvious in a few hundred rounds, unlike inaccuracy 13:02:37 SamB: ... 13:03:05 I think innacuracy ought to auto-ID sort of like weapon plusses do -- that is, based on skill with the weapon in use 13:03:15 dpeg: Yes, random gods are nice also. And, it would be nice to populate the dungeon with worshippers of whatever random gods you generated! But one thing at a time. 13:03:17 only probably more slowly 13:03:33 =sust could reduce the amount of nutrition used by actions like spells (but not waiting), by a random amount 13:03:36 kilobyte: well, you can tell that you are wearing inacc too... 13:03:48 DrPraetor: you've seen the random god page? 13:03:54 kilobyte: people generally don't keep unIDed uncursed jewellery items on anyway 13:04:00 either that, or cause you to mis-ID the weapon plusses ;-P 13:04:04 dpeg: Yes, checking it again now though... 13:04:18 elliptic: I tend to, unless I have nothing better to put on 13:04:31 I do with amulets 13:04:33 well, by "better" I mean "that I don't know isn't better" 13:04:35 the only times I've actually interacted with inacc have been the rare times I put on a cursed one early on and don't have rCurse 13:04:35 a vast majority of jewelry is positive, so non-paranoid folks tend to 13:04:41 so things ike clarity can ID 13:04:54 exactly 13:05:03 or so I can notice that I can see invisible ... 13:05:06 unided rPois, etc 13:05:07 kilobyte: jewellery that doesn't auto-ID is very very unlikely to help you, especially early game 13:05:12 and most amulets are positive 13:05:34 dpeg: Not sure what point you're making? 13:05:43 I do think SI should auto-ID, unless perhaps one of the potential sources is cursed 13:05:49 you are more likely to die to wasting a teleport scroll and a turn with stasis on than you are to getting benefit from a random amulet 13:05:57 DrPraetor: didn't we brainstorm random gods via email years ago? 13:06:12 since the PC would presumably try wiggling all suspected sources 13:06:13 rings of ice could harm you -- which were pretty much the only case other than hunger, and now they auto-ID 13:06:16 dpeg: Yes, we did. Everything in that e-mail seems well-reflected (generally improved on) in the article. 13:06:21 I wouldn't mind removing =hunger, we should be able to find to replacement (hunger is fine as a randart property). 13:06:24 SamB: you mean See Invis? 13:06:28 yeah 13:06:41 at least ... if you haven't got a mutation that already grants it? 13:06:57 or maybe different sources stack? 13:07:01 elliptic: you can test that beforehand though 13:07:05 DrPraetor: the page is from scratch, born out of a forum discussion. I thought you might have additional ideas, seeing the stuff again after all this time. 13:07:10 kilobyte: true, ice and fire auto-IDing helps with rings... negative slaying is still bad though 13:07:22 at least i walk into teletraps with unid'd stuff i plan to wear :p 13:07:29 so that the PC thinks "I can see that invisible thing better than usual" and can tell 13:07:31 chrisoelmueller: uh, only by wasting a scroll (in short supply early game, and you might not have IDed it) or if you happen to know blink spell or something 13:07:33 Actually, to throw a curveball into things ... what if everything IDd, either on wear, or on use 13:07:42 the chance for negative slaying is so small you almost always win by wearing un-ided 13:07:43 chrisoelmueller: yeah, if you can find one that works nicely 13:07:44 or find a teletrap (sort of rare early on) 13:07:51 no scrolls were harmed during that process 13:07:57 dpeg: It's more stuff than I think we can implement in a first pass anyway? That's what I was thinking about - how to get a simple randgod interface up and running so we can start weighting the RNG components for the proposed powers we already have. 13:08:01 if i find no trap, i won't wear it i guess 13:08:04 phyphor: if there's an obvious use, yeah, not iding is a bug 13:08:11 phyphor: that's not a curveball ;-P 13:08:11 phyphor: currently only See Inv, AFAIK 13:08:13 dpeg: And I never get past that point :) 13:08:17 that's what we're talking about right now 13:08:21 DrPraetor: yes, I think I say that somewhere. A first version should be highly stripped down. 13:08:39 SamB: I mean removing ?id 13:08:47 making ?dc more common 13:08:51 kilobyte: that might be true for rings now that fire and ice auto-ID, yes. for amulets, stasis and inacc are really quite bad 13:09:04 phyphor: that's used for stuff besides jewelry 13:09:12 though the gain from a non-auto-ID ring is pretty terrible too 13:09:14 phyphor: a matter of taste, but having the id minigame makes the early game more interesting, to some at least 13:09:33 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:09:34 a resistance that you don't know you have? resistances don't do much of anything early game anyway 13:09:44 I do think we could perhaps remove some of the grinding from the "hit plants with weapons" part 13:09:46 SamB: yeah, but I'm wondering if making you have ot use somethign to ID it makes it more interesting 13:09:47 Oh, there were some monster-theme powers I was considering. A dragon-god that gives you some Draconian-type benefits, a Giant god who makes you *bigger* (but this would break so many things...) and so forth. 13:09:50 like, automate the process 13:10:10 also, do plants have any regen? 13:10:22 So you have a chance of drawing Theme_Dragon, then you have a chance of drawing NoHarm_Dragons, and then you have a chance of drawing Dragons_Friendly, in that order. 13:10:24 DrPraetor: yes, but that's a corollary ... I'd like to start with random content 13:10:50 samb: there was some idea of giving you a single skill-based chance of IDing pluses when you first wield a weapon 13:10:54 dpeg: Easiest random content is just a table of invocations which are drawn from random spells. But that's kidna boring... 13:10:56 and then no chance after that 13:10:57 oh, would anyone object if I hardcoded MONS_PLANT as non-dangerous and not-auto-excludable? 13:11:15 DrPraetor: I believe that randomised piety gain is crucial 13:11:25 elliptic: you should be able to ID them later too, though 13:11:33 SamB: that's what scrolls are for 13:11:33 especially if you get *more skill* 13:11:36 phyphor: Crawl Light does away with the id minigame 13:11:41 you could have a new chance when you gain skill, yeah 13:12:01 dpeg: I am just intrigued by why some items auto-ID and others dontt 13:12:03 as long as the chance is higher 13:12:15 phyphor: some of it is "we haven't figured out how to work it" 13:12:18 e.g. why tele IDs on wear and not activation 13:12:22 some of it might be "we forgot" 13:12:30 well, tele is evocable 13:12:32 a very simple model: when you generate a weapon, also randomly (according to some distribution) pick a skill level you need to auto-ID it 13:12:33 evokable? 13:12:35 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Quit: Recalculating TATARI at "the crossing crossing"] 13:12:35 dpeg: So start with random piety gain, and some random invocation/spells, but the skeleton for invocation/spells needs to have the *ability* to look at piety gain/themes etc. from some list and reweight it's RNG accordingly, yeah? 13:12:36 whichever 13:12:42 oh, wait, except not anymore? 13:12:51 phyphor: good point ... 13:12:54 dpeg: And we'll add conducts, themes, and more interesting powers later? 13:13:08 that skill level is stored invisibly, and if you are ever wielding the weapon and you have at least that skill level, ID its plusses 13:13:37 elliptic: do we have a free field for that? (or do you propose to use a hashtable field?) 13:13:42 not sure 13:13:50 do weapons have hashtables? 13:13:50 you could simulate this without the field, of course 13:14:09 just by choosing the appropriate chance each time your skill increases 13:14:23 oh, you mean you get it immediately? 13:14:29 what? 13:14:35 without wielding? 13:14:39 no, you always have to wield 13:15:05 oh, well, in that case we'd need to track levels gained *somehow* 13:15:11 so we'd still need a field 13:15:29 oh, I suppose. you could have raising your skill only help with your wielded weapon, I guess, but that's a bit weird 13:15:43 and nothing like how it works now 13:16:27 I just thought we might make the "hit plants with stuff" minigame work like fighting way underlevel enemies in Earthbound 13:17:19 (You don't actually have to go through the battle, it just tells you what happens in the battle in a short message.) 13:17:45 elliptic: sounds good 13:18:10 SamB: that doesn't sound like it would work well in crawl 13:18:26 DrPraetor: I'd collect some powers and piety gains that are simple but effective 13:18:39 since often killing a plant or weak monster is tactically important because there are other monsters around 13:19:16 elliptic: I meant there would be some command to say "use these plants/bushes to hit-test the wielded weapon" 13:19:25 and even if there aren't other monsters around, doing the whole fight for you is strange... how much time/nutrition will it take? 13:19:26 and a monster's approach would interrupt that 13:19:34 or keypreses 13:19:43 I'm not saying do it exactly like in earthbound ;-P 13:20:03 samb: well, I think better is just to scrap the hit-test idea or to make it simply not work on trivial monsters like plants 13:20:23 maybe 13:20:31 like, you could tie it to the xp value of the enemies you kill with the weapon, or something 13:20:43 (the hard part there is the "kill with the weapon" part) 13:20:59 hmm, that might be good 13:21:21 I always thought it was odd how the formula didn't seem to care how good the weapon was 13:21:33 dpeg: what was the intended purpose of the portal vault inscriptions? I seem to remember you were asking for them 13:21:40 it seems like it ought to be easier to tell if a weapon is super awesome than exactly how shitty a shitty weapon is ;-) 13:21:41 and now they are here and they are really spammy 13:22:04 elliptic: so you could tell what loot was from portal vaults? 13:22:23 elliptic: oh, damn. I know that many players like to know the origin of an item (from Sigmund, or a bailey), even if it is mundane 13:22:30 I guess they should really only apply to things which are not fully IDed 13:22:45 well, it currently applies to stuff like chunks butchered from a corpse in a bailey 13:23:03 hmm, yes, chunks is a bit excessive 13:23:22 does it matter for hides? 13:23:23 Someone in ##crawl was saying they got a potion of curing from a sewer and all potions of curing were now saying from a sewer 13:23:35 dpeg: it can certainly be improved in various ways, and it might turn out to be a good idea... I was just wondering whether there was anything specific in mind 13:23:36 phyphor: yes, that possibility had occured to me 13:23:41 elliptic: only interesting on weapons, armour, I think 13:23:41 and it sounds crazy 13:23:43 yeah, stacking inscriptions are annoying too 13:24:07 stacking inscriptions are good when they are for things that presumably apply to the whole type 13:24:08 also the inscription is too long currently... IMO it should just be {bailey}, not {found in the bailey} or whatever it is now 13:24:16 yeah 13:24:30 also it should not apply in bazaars 13:24:32 or {found in in the bailey} 13:24:59 kilobyte: you said you were going to need to zap it anyway? 13:25:00 back (much) later 13:25:16 even {found in bailey} would be better 13:25:52 since that would presumably be easier to do grammatically 13:26:12 elliptic: okay, it looks like item_def does have a hashtable 13:26:16 so we could just use that 13:26:30 I think we ought to try this in a branch, though 13:29:56 I think we should leave missles/launchers alone, though 13:30:46 Anyone who IDs those vs. plants has got to be some kind of masochist 13:30:52 _You block the bolt of penetration. 13:30:55 ^^ bug 13:31:01 hah 13:32:02 they respect AC, too 13:32:12 samb: I think missiles and launchers IDing in this way could be good also... but for a different reason. it might make them less annoying to use 13:32:17 alefury: respecting AC is fine 13:32:23 * SamB wishes he could pin the "startup" folder to the start menu 13:32:36 how is it different from a shield? 13:32:39 but the point is that monsters with shields can't block penetration missiles, but the player can 13:32:43 elliptic: well, I think they're okay as-is 13:32:47 oh, okay 13:32:48 also bolts of cold go through shields fine, but not armour 13:33:13 they also dont go through walls :) 13:33:23 at least, I think such an ID change should be tried on melee weapons only to start with 13:33:35 samb: sure, but it would make them less annoying later on if they auto-IDed if you had high skill 13:34:12 missiles would require a bit more complication though because of the stacking issues, so I'm happy to leave something like that to later 13:34:28 launchers I guess I can go either way on 13:34:44 but I, for one, don't even try to "scum" those because it's a pain to target plants 13:35:02 and it's also possible to test them from a safer distance 13:35:12 vs. actual enemies 13:35:38 I might feel differently if I ever got to this "later on" of which you speak ;-) 13:36:22 oh, this entry really is named for crop circles! 13:36:40 Level extras: Level vaults: 13:36:40 roderic_crop_circles_entry_small [1]: (34,41) (17,15) orient: 10 lev: 0 13:36:40 _ 13:36:51 SamB: rather: I need to kill due's code since it uses things that are no more. If we want, it can be re-added. 13:37:06 kilobyte: it sounds like it has other issues too ;-) 13:37:16 it could use something per-vault or per-branch 13:37:29 just not per-portal-vault since these are not special any more 13:37:56 don't they have names ? 13:38:34 yeah, you can have logic like "if this is a disconnected branch, use the branch's name" 13:39:04 of course, we'd need to come up with a way to exclude stuff like Bazaar 13:39:06 the old code considered Lab to be a "non-portal" 13:39:27 since Labs didn't use portal vault code 13:40:49 so, does anyone mind if MONS_PLANT can't set to auto-exclude, or be considered dangerous? 13:40:54 +be 13:43:04 I've got a couple of special cases lined up for it to avoid vaults like roderic_crop_circles_entry_small slowing things down too much 13:52:24 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:52:29 Okay, note to self: when you say, never go into slime without at least rC++, you MEAN IT. This is not an advisory which you will decide to ignore! 13:59:05 how do I find the source file for a vault easily? 14:00:51 search for the name? 14:01:25 nevermind, I found it by guessing what file it would be in 14:01:38 and guess right on the first try 14:02:02 well, the vaults are organized into files in a somewhat sane way 14:02:08 so that tends to work well 14:02:09 I guess the conventions for which file to put an entry vault in aren't bad ;-) 14:02:12 'git grep' 14:08:52 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 14:19:17 I don't suppose there's any way I could search by typical MONS_PLANT count ? 14:24:16 &" 14:24:27 I'd expect the Shoals to have most. 14:29:18 hmm 14:30:13 there should be a way to see the real/cpu time taken per turn (either or both) 14:31:21 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:32:06 * SamB goes to profile the crop circles entry vault with his MONS_PLANT special cases 14:37:32 let me guess... most of the time spent in radius_iterator and especially circle_def 14:37:35 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:38:06 (which could be 3-4 orders of magnitude faster if they didn't try to handle rectangles as well) 14:40:55 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:40:57 I always wanted to overhaul that code but it's a large piece of work, and the time for such optimization is closer to a release when you can't introduce features that need balance testing 14:43:52 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 14:44:24 kilobyte: well, I actually spotted mons_is_safe and set_auto_exclude wasting a lot of time on plants ... 14:47:41 does it call something user-defined? 14:47:49 if not, there's mons_is_firewood() 14:48:34 it does call something user defined 14:49:10 what does mons_is_firewood mean, and is it really cheap? 14:50:17 stationary monsters that give no xp 14:51:49 I'm not sure we really want to prevent from configuring auto-excludes or non-safety for all such monsters? 14:53:20 God gift weapons picked up by unique have extra space in autoinscribe (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4859) by kurper 14:56:32 apparently kraken-spawned tentacles give piety 14:56:51 this seems a bit strange and potentially abusable 14:57:09 kilobyte: feel free to generalize what I just pushed 14:58:09 03SamB * r9a085d99210c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (exclude.cc misc.cc): Speed hack: Special case MONS_PLANT as safe and not auto-excludable. 14:58:53 I think I shaved off 30% of the time it takes to get halfway around roderic_crop_circles_entry_small when running under callgrind, and it feels better outside of callgrind 14:59:34 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:01:22 kilobyte: I'm sure there's also a lot more that can be trimmed 15:04:25 does anyone actually have their own lua for mons_is_safe ? 15:04:33 uhm, why did you use MONS_PLANT and not firewood? There's a lot more such monsters. 15:05:05 kilobyte: I don't want to be responsible for not knowing exactly what monsters those are 15:05:29 if you do know exactly what they are or why that won't be a problem, go ahead and change it 15:05:32 that's why there's mons_is_firewood()... 15:05:58 does it at have a doc comment saying what it is meant for? 15:06:19 and what you can safely assume about monsters that it returns "true" for? 15:06:35 I don't remember it having one 15:07:51 oh, it has something 15:07:55 it's supposed to return true for monsters that are a mere decoration/obstacle 15:08:12 used in 5496789589 places in monster AI, for example 15:10:18 oh, actually, I kind of fail to see why this would help 15:11:00 ah no, even if _mons_is_always_safe() will say yes, the code will still run lua 15:12:50 did you look at what causes the slowdown? Because everything other than asking user's lua is fast. 15:13:22 well, I expect building a mon_info to pass to the lua is not fast 15:13:33 ah 15:14:18 I may even have the profile to show th at 15:14:24 but it's not open at the moment 15:16:11 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:19:12 kcachegrind doesn't shows no really huge time-hog classes, except coord_def at 10.63% 15:20:13 -!- valrus_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:21:17 a strange thing: ballistomycetes return true on mons_is_firewood() 15:21:25 not sure if that's a bug or not 15:21:38 me either 15:21:44 otherwise, it's redundant with the checks in _mons_is_always_safe() 15:23:21 so what's the lua supposed to do, deal with the player's fear of sleeping monsters and non-fear of monsters crawl thinks are scary? 15:23:42 I'm not even entirely sure what mons_is_safe is used for ... 15:24:25 ... but I was pretty sure MONS_PLANT would qualify as safe for any sane player, regardless 15:25:54 autotravel interruptions, rest, etc 15:26:08 03kilobyte * rd59c05e43047 10/crawl-ref/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Give different messages when nausea goes away, depending on food and hunger. 15:26:18 03kilobyte * r971edcd14634 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Trim away a comma at the end of artefact inscriptions. 15:26:19 03kilobyte * rbaea2d227f70 10/crawl-ref/source/wiz-item.cc: Fix a crash on &t art flags. 15:26:19 03kilobyte * rf9845cc61333 10/crawl-ref/source/misc.cc: Short-circuit mons_is_safe() for other firewood. 15:28:42 -!- Danei has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:29:57 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 15:34:28 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 15:37:35 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:39:37 kilobyte: are you not doing that for the auto-exclusions because of ballistomycetes? 15:40:08 03dolorous * rae2aeddc3112 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Tweak wording. 15:41:17 SamB: there's a lot of users of mons_is_safe() -- usually via i_feel_safe() 15:41:35 for example, resting near the monster in question 15:57:11 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:00:20 kilobyte: have you profiled anything ? 16:03:16 not in this case... mons_is_firewood() is a simple function call which calls nothing but other inlineable functions from mon-util.cc 16:04:25 mons_is_firewood is my new favorite function. Something to do with sheep? 16:04:57 SamB: could you tell me what scenario did you use for profiling? 16:05:50 kilobyte: immediately after starting callgrind, I did callgrind_control --instr=off 16:06:38 then loaded a save in/near roderic_crop_circles_entry_small and moved to the top/bottom of the circle 16:06:53 at which point I did callgrind_control -z and --instr=on 16:07:28 (using . to cause them to actually happen) 16:08:36 ah, you count calls rather than execution time 16:08:37 then, I clicked at the opposite point on the circle, waited until the PC actually reached it, ran callgrind_control --instr=off, and typed "Sy" 16:08:54 callgrind also measures something not entirely unlike execution time 16:09:43 I think it basically counts how many bytes or instructions are executed 16:11:38 the main point of this dance was to measure the actually laggy stuff, and not include the startup/shutdown costs 16:12:17 I suppose I could have used --dump to get figures for both inside the crop circle vault and in a more typical part of the dungeon ... 16:13:15 lemme compare -O0 to -O2 -flto builds 16:13:34 WTF, gprof's report is 15MB big 16:15:05 I was going to use gprof, but then the manual for that said I might want to try oprofile, so I did, but couldn't get a decent report out of it and the gprof file it made was too big for gprof to get anywhere with on my system ... 16:15:45 or, well, maybe too complicated, I dunno 16:16:12 "too big"? Does it have a limit? That sounds weird. 16:16:21 it does not, but my patience has 16:16:46 and I don't like the sound of its algorithms 16:19:03 http://angband.pl/tmp/entry_rest_O0.txt.gz http://angband.pl/tmp/entry_rest_O2lto.txt.gz 16:19:28 both are waiting 1000 turns in the vault, with monster generation off and existing monsters &G-ed 16:22:44 hmm, that's not sorted by cumulative time 16:24:46 that's in the second part of the report 16:25:47 * SamB wonders how to search for ^L in less 16:25:52 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 16:26:25 /^L\n 16:27:47 somehow the flto report shows kiku_receive_corpses() on a prominent position 16:28:05 I guess gprof might have a bug. Perhaps plain -O2 would work better. 16:28:44 the -O0 one is damn spammy and overreports things like coord_def::operator- which after inlining are a simple pair of additions 16:31:42 oh, huh 16:31:45 oooh, a nice one: mons_can_display_wounds() calls monster's constructor which takes forever 16:32:00 14.8% of -O0 time is spent there 16:32:18 -!- Soyweiser has joined ##crawl-dev 16:33:14 Hi developers. I'm looking at the 9.1 code and have a question about poison resistance. What is the value of the poison resistance int for poison resist monsters/players? 16:33:37 (I was wondering because I wondered where the damage from the sting/other poison spells came from). 16:34:35 Soyweiser: that's interesting -- are you from the future ? 16:35:01 what? did I use the wrong versioning number? 16:35:16 ow I forgot the trailing 0. 16:35:21 version 0.9.1 16:39:52 kilobyte: yeah, it would probably be better to try it with -O2 16:40:36 lto may not generate very good debug info 16:41:06 oh, but wait 16:41:29 gprof actually uses compiler instrumentation, so that won't explain that very well ... 16:42:51 anyway, it seems clear that there are bugs in this area! 16:43:49 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:28 ??poison resistance 16:44:28 poison resistance[1/2]: Makes you immune to normal poison (this includes chunks!), damage from normal poison attacks, and confusion from mephitic clouds. Halves damage and poison from Poison Arrow. Recommended for Hive, highly recommended for Swamp and Snake, of moderate use in D, and rather little elsewhere. 16:44:35 ??poison resistance[2] 16:44:35 poison resistance[2/2]: Warning, many poison spells still have impact damage even if you can't be poisoned. 16:44:50 @??snake 16:44:50 snake (09S) | Speed: 13 (swim: 60%) | HD: 2 | Health: 6-16 | AC/EV: 1/15 | Damage: 508(poison) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(8), 12drown | XP: 13. 16:45:00 @??kobold 16:45:00 kobold (07K) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 2-5 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 4 | Res: 06magic(1) | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 1. 16:45:07 Well, looking at the code, it just uses resist_adjust_damage 16:45:12 To resist damage. 16:45:13 @??bees 16:45:13 unknown monster: "bees" 16:45:15 @??bee 16:45:15 unknown monster: "bee" 16:45:19 @??queen bee 16:45:19 queen bee (08k) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 24-52 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 2008(nasty poison) | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(28) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 304. 16:45:29 hmm, what's poison resistant? 16:45:33 @??phantom 16:45:33 phantom (02p) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 24-52 | AC/EV: 3/13 | Damage: 1006(blink) | Flags: 07undead, evil, lev, !sil | Res: 06magic(37), 02cold++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 124 | Sp: blink. 16:45:38 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 16:46:58 I assume that cold++ has a value of 2 for example. Perhaps poison is just 1, (which gives 50% res for players, and 66% for monsters) and that it just prevents the poisoning effect. 16:49:00 hrm, I'm testing the speed-up, but getting crashes. But then it turned out it's no regression. 16:49:18 arena 'kraken v kraken zombie delay:0 t:99 arena:small_deep_pool' crashes already :p 16:49:20 Where is the monster data stored? In the directory struture I mean. Not in the code. 16:50:09 what's actually stored as data is in crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h 16:50:32 ow, I expected some sort of data / code split :). 16:50:43 Thanks! 16:50:46 this helps a lot. 16:50:57 there's not much actual code there, it's mostly just a big array of structs ... 16:52:19 and at least we don't have the descriptions hardcoded too ;-) 16:52:50 :D. That makes translating into differnt languages a lot easier :D 16:53:33 DOH. I could also just look at what res_poison returns... 16:54:41 Lol : // Monsters can legitimately get multiple levels of poison resistance. 16:56:13 Soyweiser: it's still essentially impossible 16:56:47 yeah, only if they have artifacts. 16:57:23 I meant translation of crawl 16:57:50 impossible? nothing is impossible! 16:57:52 http://gitorious.org/~blmarket/crawl/crawl-korean 16:57:53 there's a ton of hardcoded english, and english grammar assumptions 16:58:18 Evening! 16:58:56 dpeg: I won an SpBe! 16:59:06 dpeg: My first SpBe win ever, and my first win in about two years :) 16:59:15 dpeg: I'v e just started an MiFi for the heck of it now. 17:00:05 bhaak: well, I should have said "impossible without changing everything so that it would be a real mess to merge changes from the english version" 17:02:10 It looks like the poison res is capped at one. But not hard code capped at one, but a few checks that try to prevent base monsters from having to much. (MF_FAKE_UNDEAD and MH_UNDEAD). But that is what I get from comments. And I don't know how up to date those are. ;) 17:03:04 bhaak: they do 54756956873678 ifs that are specific to Korean 17:03:20 bhaak: just like in English code 17:03:41 bhaak: and it's a real mess even in a grammar-less language like Korean 17:04:58 kilobyte: oh, they do? i haven't looked at the code yet. pity 17:05:15 edlothiol: I'm seeing a lot of time spent in monster_info::monster_info() in this vault 17:07:07 !tell edlothial is there anything we can do to keep from wasting so much time in monster_info::monster_info for plants? 17:07:08 SamB: OK, I'll let edlothial know. 17:07:16 Right. I got it. Poison res is always 1. So it resists 50%/66% of damage. That is where the damage part from spells like sting comes from. 17:08:49 Basically it works like any other resistance. 17:10:20 SamB: not sure why you're asking me, but -- do you have data on from where the monster_infos are created? 17:11:24 Moose the Chiller (L4 DEIE) ASSERT(!you.turn_is_over) in 'state.cc' at line 173 failed on turn 1942. (D:2) 17:13:12 edlothiol: _update_monster 17:14:36 edlothiol: and who do you think I should be asking ? 17:15:38 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:21:11 Btw, thanks SamB. I put some of my code findings on the wiki. Trying to get smoe more usefull information on that. :D 17:22:08 SamB: no idea, but I'm not more familiar with that code than other people 17:22:24 edlothiol: oh, well, sorry if I thought you were ;-) 17:22:51 SamB: I wonder if it would help / be possible to make set_monster not allocate a new monster_info every time 17:23:31 most of the work seems to be finding the values for all those fields 17:23:55 I don't think there's a good way to avoid that 17:24:38 (without large refactorings) 17:35:53 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:37:01 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:37:10 -!- ussdefiant_ is now known as ussdefiant 17:39:54 * SamB looks to see what looks at the monster info of map cells, anyway 17:44:10 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:44:17 most of the display logic 17:44:31 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 17:45:31 yeah, I was wondering what stuff they actually looked at 17:45:49 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:46:42 ok, actually, the tiles display logic still uses the monster* directly (which it shouldn't) 17:47:05 ah 17:47:31 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:47:53 that would explain why I see just one call to the monsterinfo() method in tilesdl.cc 17:51:41 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 17:53:50 in any case, it doesn't look like the targetting code uses it for anything, so I'm wondering if "firewood" really needs everything filled in 18:00:18 03due * rf40b9beb8de1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (l_debug.cc scripts/genmap.lua): Some quick code stolen from place-population to give EXP stats on a map. 18:02:23 -!- jle_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:02:56 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:04:53 kilobyte: monster_info::monster_info's call graph sure looks like it has a lot of wastage, if you'll try it with callgrind and look at the results in kcachegrind... 18:06:20 (which, by the way, is a lot easier to navigate than the output of gprof!) 18:07:02 anything in the user interface should go through monster_info though 18:08:13 hmm 18:09:32 even if it hurts CPU use a tiny bit, it lets us separate the user interface from the underlying game 18:10:49 regardless, it looks like almost half of monster_info::monster_info's time is spent in monster::monster, which it seems to call (indirectly) 5 times 18:11:19 (oh, that's the copy constructor of monster::monster) 18:12:23 HangedMan the Demonologist (L19 KeSu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (40,43) (the Orb) (D:1) 18:13:49 yeah, it shouldn't copy the thing 18:14:05 like in the commit I did but didn't push (pushing now) 18:14:16 evidently there's some static function related to kraken heads involved ... 18:14:22 but I guess you know that ? 18:14:33 fucking non-fast-forward 18:14:37 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14:38 can't rebase right now 18:14:50 git stash ? 18:16:08 had both index and working tree in use 18:16:51 git stash puts them in commits, which it keeps track of 18:18:09 03kilobyte * r35b2e96e5192 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-abil.cc mon-abil.h mon-util.cc): Don't copy the entire monster whenever one of several properties is queried. 18:23:54 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 18:25:16 -!- stabwound has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:28:58 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 18:34:44 hm, kenku->tengu is about ready 18:34:44 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:36:41 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 18:39:01 Why weren't they just called tengu to start with? 18:39:21 it's not like "kenku" ever actually fooled anyone... 18:39:34 I've no idea, really. 18:39:51 they went in at the same time as demonspawn 18:39:59 09.02.1999 18:40:05 Which was 3.20 18:40:38 because kenku sounds better 18:41:16 Kenku is a D&Dism. 18:41:57 But our Kenku are really nothing like D&D Kenku. 18:44:48 why did *they* do that? 18:58:19 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:12:07 our kenku are D&D kenku 19:12:13 except they can fly for some reason 19:15:12 Well, our kenku are week. 19:15:14 Weak. 19:15:33 so are D&D kenku 19:15:39 Yes. 19:15:41 That's what I meant. 19:16:38 Tengu can occasional have wings, it seems. 19:18:08 i thought they always have wings 19:18:11 proper birdmen 19:18:18 Nope. 19:18:23 D&D kenku don't. 19:18:32 tengu 19:18:40 but i may be wrong of course 19:18:47 i didnt look into it or anything 19:19:11 It depends. 19:19:18 As Yamabushi they don't really, but thte depictions are varied. 19:19:24 I think tengu may have them when they wish or somesuch 19:19:33 Apparently there are severall classes of tengu with different attributes. 19:19:47 Daitengu/greater tengu with more human features, and kotengu/lesser tengu with more birdlike features. 19:19:54 ah 19:19:56 do they have beaks in general? 19:20:00 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:07 how about beaks+wings and beak+no wings? 19:20:25 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 19:20:29 Beaks or stylised long noses. 19:20:42 thats good 19:20:47 some of them seem shifty, I think, though 19:20:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KunitsunaTengu.jpg 19:21:12 I've just gotten an idea foor a randart from Wikipedia :) 19:21:24 T"The Tengu's Magic Cloak" (天狗の隠れみの Tengu no Kakuremino?): A boy looks through an ordinary piece of bamboo and pretends he can see distant places. A tengu, overwhelmed by curiosity, offers to trade it for a magic straw cloak that renders the wearer invisible. Having duped the tengu, the boy continues his mischief while wearing the cloak. 19:21:29 wow, those look really weird 19:21:45 Straw cloak, anyone? :D 19:28:14 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:29:55 due: how would it work? invis while worn (with all the resultant glow issues, but you can take it off of course)? 19:30:27 elliptic: I'm thinking *INVIS 19:30:40 elliptic: A bit like *RAGE. You randomly go invisible for a few turns. 19:30:47 like a sky beast? :P 19:30:50 Kinda, yeah. 19:31:06 Only the random invis doesn't cause horrendous glow; also evokable fo rstandard invis with normal glow. 19:31:28 could be interesting if the random invis doesn't give glow 19:31:41 Yeah, that's wha tI was thinking 19:32:22 i would probably wear it over a bunch of other stuff if i had some easy way of getting SInv 19:32:34 but not wear it without easy SInv 19:32:49 so wear/not wear is somewhat interesting 19:34:47 Okay, I might tjust push the Kenku rename. 19:35:06 * due tests 19:35:59 why do I have a piety screen? 19:36:18 hm, how would *invis cope with players waiting around to go invis? 19:36:23 are you a monk? 19:36:25 yeah 19:36:37 I hear monks get two stars of piety for free 19:36:40 oh 19:46:22 -!- mikee_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:47:03 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:47:22 monqy: I imagined it as frequent enough and short enough duration that waiting around for it wouldn't be a big deal 19:47:56 like, each turn it has a 10% chance of toggling, or something 19:48:10 elliptic: yeah, that's what I was thinking 19:48:22 I'm not sure how to measure duration though 19:48:39 Evocations skill? 19:48:58 it doesn't need to depend on a skill 19:49:01 -!- Blade has joined ##crawl-dev 19:49:40 true 19:50:02 I suppose having it based on a skill means you can improve how much you get out of it 19:50:17 alternately, it could eat MP while you are invis 19:50:28 and when you run out of MP/random chance depending on evocations skill it flickers you bback 19:50:40 and you can stop it by ability to stop it eating your MP. 19:50:46 that sounds annoying 19:50:48 yeah 19:50:57 IMO it should be completely passive and should be non-negative 19:51:13 Yeah. How many turns is overpowered? 19:51:29 Vault:8 quadrants (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4860) by minmay 19:51:57 well, my suggestion would still just be that each turn it has a certain chance of toggling... either on or off... and maybe also put lower and upper bounds on how long it can be in a given state 19:52:38 so the duration would be fairly unpredictable... maybe 3-15 turns or something like that 19:52:58 I suppose how many turns as an upper limit is overpowered/ 19:53:06 15 turns sounds not too bad. 19:53:15 Especially if the longer you've had it on, the higher the chanc eof it flickering off is. 19:53:25 <+elliptic> IMO it should be completely passive and should be non-negative 19:53:32 good time to remove the acc penalty for attacking while invis without sinv, then 19:53:49 Well, the cloak can just have SInv 19:54:02 that would make it strictly awesome 19:54:08 im not sure thats good 19:54:23 Excellent, save compat seems to be safe 19:54:28 eronarn: well, by non-negative I mainly meant "doesn't drain your MP" 19:54:40 pushed :) 19:54:55 it should not do that, for sure 19:54:56 in general acc penalty for being invis without sinv is balanced by the advantages of being invis 19:55:09 so I'm not so worried about that 19:55:16 being invis is pretty advantageous 19:55:23 I'm not sure how overpowered it would be with SInv (the cloak, that is) 19:55:37 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 19:55:38 it is generally okay if unrands are powerful, anyway 19:55:55 True 19:55:58 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 19:56:02 dragonskin is /really/ really nice.. 19:56:07 the concept actually works surprisingly well 19:56:11 03due * r95034625433e 10/crawl-ref/ (59 files in 12 dirs): Rename Kenku -> Tengu. 19:56:40 next up: hill orc -> hill sidhe 19:56:54 good idea 19:57:07 I'l do that now, while we're waiting 19:57:40 also, I like that manuals don't switch on when you read them, but identify 19:57:42 it is very nice 19:59:09 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 19:59:19 due: you change a species and I'll get all the flak :) 19:59:24 (100 comments btw) 19:59:47 dpeg: Nah, I'll take responsibility for it. 19:59:54 i'm willing to write the initial post 20:00:02 and take all the flames 20:00:11 we're not going to have a post :) 20:00:11 mikee_: thank you 20:00:21 I don't see any point in validating ourselves on this matter 20:00:24 I am fine with the change, of course. 20:00:59 it is not particularly contentious nor do I imagine there are that many kenku lovers wo are going to be crying themselves to sleep over their copies of hte silmarillion^H^H^Hmonster manual 20:01:05 is tengu te? 20:01:07 haha 20:01:10 Yes. 20:01:15 sweet, new words 20:01:24 i was about to mention that, yeah :P 20:01:24 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 20:01:27 i don't think Ke makes many words 20:01:30 Well, it will be when greensnark applies the patch I just emailed him. 20:01:47 just keen it seems 20:02:00 teak is a lovely new one 20:02:03 teen 20:02:05 yes, teak <3 20:02:07 tear 20:02:14 team 20:02:15 I had the following idea for Mi: the lower their hp/maxhp, the higher the chance for a good combat effect. Not sure whether the effect should be randomly chosen among several or be just one: you attack a monster (in melee), then other adjacent hostiles may get a free attack as well. Comments? 20:02:29 TeSt 20:02:34 dpeg: Hm 20:02:42 dpeg: Also, I've come up with a new unrand based on a Japanese folk tale! :D 20:02:48 (Reasoning: the complainers had a point in that Mi is not as minotaurish as possible... this is one attempt to change that.) 20:02:54 due: yay! 20:03:00 team 20:03:08 dpeg: not sure that idea has much to do with being minotaurish, and it sounds a bit complicated 20:03:08 !learn add tengu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KunitsunaTengu.jpg 20:03:09 tengu[1/1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KunitsunaTengu.jpg 20:03:09 team team 20:03:27 elliptic: bullish rage (not the berserk kind of rage) 20:03:28 I think the next tourney is like to have a Tengu Team where you're only allowed to play TeAMs. 20:03:29 well what would minotaurish entail exactly? 20:03:31 aggression? 20:03:31 dpeg: what about giving minotaur carnivore? people have pointed out that the original minotaur was pretty carnivorous 20:03:38 mikee_: broken pltes 20:03:40 *plates 20:03:50 elliptic: but that's so standard 20:03:52 people keep mentioning plates to me and i don't know why =P 20:03:58 ... bull in a china shop? 20:04:01 ahhhh 20:04:05 :) 20:04:14 ("but mythbusters /proved/ that they didn't break /any/ china!") 20:04:21 dpeg: what's wrong with standard? 20:04:32 proof that cliches are bad 20:05:06 Zannick: nothing but there can easily be something more interesting 20:05:10 sure 20:05:26 how about a chance to 'counter attack' with an aux when hit in melee? 20:05:37 mikee_: +1 from me! 20:05:55 that seems like a cool melee ability 20:06:02 dpeg: people do have a point that the number of "simple" races has been decreasing relative to complicated races 20:06:05 also, we now need Ariadne and Phaedra uniques 20:06:20 this isn't necessarily bad, and a simple and unique abliity for Mi could be good 20:06:29 mikee_: that is also fine 20:06:41 i agree with all of these! 20:06:47 mikee_: so sort of like spines, except with the horns? 20:06:49 elliptic: it depends... DD is not complicated for example, neither is Oc 20:06:51 yeah 20:07:06 it would maybe have a nice flavor of being a brawling fighter 20:07:07 It depends on how you define complicated, to be honest. 20:07:13 due: true 20:07:14 dpeg: depends on what you think is complicated 20:07:29 "Not healing" "terrible armour allowances" could be precisely defined as complicated. 20:07:32 Vp is clearly more complicated from all povs 20:07:41 DD needing to worship certain gods for healing and recharging wands and having damage shaving that makes poison harmless... not the simplest 20:07:45 vp is the most complicated 20:07:54 To be honest, anything that is not human is precisely defined as complicated, I think. 20:07:59 vp and mu are more complicated because the rules for eating have changed 20:08:04 Demonspawn have complicated mutations; Spriggans have complicated food rules. 20:08:10 FR: race that uses forced autofight 20:08:11 due: stuff like the elves, though... 20:08:16 Sp has simple food rules 20:08:22 dpeg: Well, yes. 20:08:24 but dd is also more complicated because autohealing doesn't happen 20:08:42 in a way, slow healing 3 can be seen as simplified, too 20:08:43 Zannick: to me, that means easier but I'm a bit special in that regard 20:08:45 sp has fairly simple food rules which are "can't eat this stuff, and your hunger rate is this" 20:08:50 dpeg: I'm just saying that in comparison to humans, everything could be construed as complicated; so we really just need to sharply define/set a base point for "complicated". 20:09:07 Zannick: I was tihnking more about how it impacts on certain play styles (berserk, spellcasting, etc) 20:09:41 due: I think there is really no point in the "this is gimmicky" business. We're not trashing species because they're simple. And whatever we'll do for Mi will be a passive buff. 20:09:57 dpeg: Oh, that's exactly what I mean. 20:10:05 dpeg: I'm pretty incoherent tonight, sorry. 20:10:18 some passive melee-related ability for Mi seems like a reasonable idea, and definitely wouldn't make them too complicated or anything, yeah 20:10:30 just a matter of picking something appropriate i suppose 20:10:48 my rule of thumb for simplicity is whether the most complicated changes are like adjusting dials 20:11:05 I realise that my idea of additional attacks at low health is similar to D&D's "bloodied", I chose to ignore that :) 20:11:05 dpeg: mainly I just didn't like the "stronger if more injured" aspect of your proposal, since that sort of thing can be pretty complicated to play with 20:11:14 eg. vegetarian and slow hunger rate 20:11:21 elliptic: ok 20:11:55 I'll also observe that Mi power level is already very high 20:12:05 Oh, whats up with MI health? 20:12:11 I was at like 60HP by XL6. 20:12:18 due: they have +1 20:12:32 That's fine, of course, it was just a nice, pleasant surprise. 20:12:43 whereas if i have to think "okay, i don't eat but i rot" or "resting doesn't heal" then that goes against most of my previous roguelike experience and i'm very conscious of that 20:12:58 ??hp[2] 20:12:59 hp[2/2]: 3: Og Tr | 2: DD Na | 1: Ce Dg Dr Gh HO MD Mi | 0: Ds Hu Mf Mu Vp | -1: Ha HE Op SE | -2: DE Ke Ko | -3: Sp | -4: Fe 20:13:09 qualitative difference vs. quantitative difference 20:13:20 mikee_: yeah, that's a good way to put it 20:13:23 ahh 20:13:38 dpeg: did I get excited abotu my first win in years to you? :D 20:13:45 dpeg: I think Slime is now very easy 20:13:49 Oh wait, I think I already said that 20:13:52 oh, not good 20:13:55 why is Slime too easy? 20:14:04 Well, I did it aat XL27. 20:14:27 But there seemed like there was hardly any threat of monsters outsie of the cnetral area on Slime:6 20:14:34 TRJ's monster spawns are goo thoguh. 20:14:41 goo 20:14:47 they are goo! 20:14:49 appropiate 20:15:08 due: it varies a bit 20:15:09 ... good 20:15:14 slime is easy if you are prepared but is a special challenge if you are not 20:15:15 due: well, doing a branch at the latest possible moment does make it easier :) 20:15:18 elliptic: A bit too much I thought 20:15:22 slime:6 has always been pretty empty away from the main vault 20:15:41 elliptic: how do you reckon the slime wall change has fared over the years? 20:15:44 Also, guaranteed alarm traps to wake up their Sliminess is a good idea. 20:15:45 overall i think it fills a good niche of being harder than other lair branches but easier than demon/undead branches 20:15:48 dpeg: I /love/ the lsime walls. 20:15:51 dpeg: current status is pretty good 20:16:02 give trj spells 20:16:11 give trj haste other 20:16:14 TRJ is honestly fine. 20:16:23 slime:1-5 are open enough that the walls aren't too annoying for exploration but they are still relevant 20:16:33 you have to fight in the open, you can't always chase monsters, etc 20:16:36 elliptic: good to know. I've never played a char to Slime for a while. 20:16:40 make azure jellies have their second pair of attacks be acid-branded 20:16:57 (it's weird that they're a high tier jelly without any actual acid attacks) 20:17:05 I think there was an analysis of Slime monsters somewhere, the death oozes are neglected, iirc. 20:17:06 so are death oozes 20:19:13 speed randomization also makes things a lot easier 20:19:27 re Mi, what about this: whenever the minotaur dodges a melee attack, there is a chance for a goring headbutt. (I.e. less often than DS passive freeze, but a lot more damage if it sets in). 20:20:07 that could be good. it would encourage people to play more dodging minotaurs 20:20:33 due: what does speed randomization have to do with it? 20:20:54 mikee_: yes, my intention. 20:20:54 dpeg: I think I like that 20:21:02 elliptic: No, I was just thinking about all of the contentious changes over the years, and speed randdomisation actually makes things easier 20:21:16 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:21:18 oh, not something about slime 20:21:25 no, sorry 20:21:34 something with a low chance of triggering but noticable effect when it does sounds good for mi, yeah 20:21:48 dpeg: +1 from me too 20:21:53 a low "proc" chance 20:21:56 better than just a chance to hit back with a normal weak aux 20:21:57 haha 20:21:59 yes 20:22:03 dpeg: be aware that DS passive freeze is incredibly powerful if you get it early 20:22:15 alefury: yes, I had it in games 20:22:16 passive freeze is a t3 mut now so you shouldn't do anymore :P 20:22:23 the damage could scale witih XL 20:22:24 spines 3 once killed a hydra for me 20:22:29 ah, that was before -- good stuff, MarvinPA 20:22:34 due: with Str! 20:22:42 dpeg: yeah 20:22:54 Always try to use stat over XL if you can imo. 20:22:56 the power of minotaurs of chei 20:23:01 mikee_: :) 20:23:10 would be consistent with the new aux effects using str/dex that way too 20:23:30 didn't n7 get a !!! for a headbutt recently 20:23:35 ??!!! 20:23:36 !!![1/1]: If you hit something and the message ends with !!!, that means you did 36 or more damage. Yikes! 20:23:53 he got pretty lucky to get that, it was near max damage 20:23:55 i haven't followed the changes to aux 20:24:02 ah so it's rare 20:24:25 mikee_: horns and such don't use UC skill any more 20:24:30 pretty cool, at any rate 20:24:35 interesting 20:24:40 not even for "proc" chance? 20:24:46 nope 20:24:55 i like that 20:25:06 UC skill gives you a chance at a headbutt or kick or whatever if you don't have the appropriate mutation, but that's all 20:25:13 it will probably need some tweaking 20:25:31 this means that minotaur horns are useful for weapon-using minotaurs 20:25:37 so a monstrous demonspawn might be good even if you decide not to use unarmed 20:25:42 I am doing this also in order to throw players a bone... They've complained long and wide about Mi lacking flavour. I don't see this, but I may be special in that again. So let's give Mi something brutish to do with horns. I am not the best person to come up with a formula. Shall I try nonethelesS? 20:26:20 monstrous demonspawn still guarantees you're getting claws 3 unfortunately so i guess unarmed is probably still best by a good chunk 20:26:30 need more body slot muts :( 20:26:55 MarvinPA: will come 20:27:05 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 20:27:07 needs an alternate hands mutation maybe 20:27:15 marvinpa: sometime soon I'll be nerfing high-end unarmed, so it will be a little less clear at least 20:27:21 tentacles, once constriction is in? 20:27:24 i suppose tentacles could qualify 20:27:25 yeah 20:27:25 good idea 20:27:29 though claws 3 should still be a considerable unarmed incentive of course 20:27:34 yes 20:27:46 dpeg: is it possible to get racial abilities? that is, all minotaurs get, say, the ability to do some kind of trample in combat? 20:27:55 tentacles 3 doesn't prevent gloves currently and it still gives an aux 20:28:04 phyphor: we're discussing exactly that 20:28:06 right, they'd have to block gloves 20:28:09 (if you wizmode up a non-octopode to have it) 20:28:13 dpeg: THat's why I'm trhowing it in 20:28:15 trample is for the bigger bruisers, though (player dragons have it) 20:28:24 not an auto-attack on dodge, but a specific (a)bility 20:28:37 a non-passive? 20:28:38 phyphor: we try to avoid (a)bilities 20:28:43 that's why I 20:28:48 I'm bringing it up as an idea 20:28:53 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:29:11 mikee_: yes, non-passive, because it has been brought to my attention that un-controlled trample can be bad 20:29:27 But I have in my head the concept of a charging minotaur from various media 20:29:50 phyphor: charing is a concept that can make sense passively -- check wiki page 20:29:54 *charging 20:30:28 and I figure trampling isn't just weight but power and technique (see, for example, rugby scrums and mauls) 20:31:19 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 20:31:40 Is current headbutt Str dependent enough that I can just say: give the Mi dodging-retaliation with chance Dex/40 and internal strength 2*Str ? 20:32:49 I'd like to make use of the existing feature, if possible. 20:34:34 Could also use a flat chance (e.g. 10%) but I'd like to use Dex as well, to make stat choosing a little interesting for inotaurs. 20:34:53 dex not dodge? 20:35:00 yes, Dex 20:35:19 imo, all these effects (combat moves) should be governed by stats 20:36:05 I would've thought skill was more important than stats 20:37:03 actually, what about something based off skill and stat? so dex/dodge to see if it procs, str/uac for damage?# 20:37:06 one goal is to make stats more relevant 20:37:27 this will only work if they have a clear niche -- in other words, they shouldn't interfere with what skills do 20:37:36 fair enough 20:37:40 phyphor: separation of the parameters! 20:38:26 huh? 20:39:11 phyphor: if all kinds of parameters determine an effect, it is harder for the player to see what's going on (and harder to explain for us) 20:40:12 It seems to work in AD&D 20:40:48 but, having said that, that's hardly a good argument I realise 20:41:03 hehe 20:41:21 elliptic, MarvinPA, due: any opinion on formula? 20:41:22 But I mention it only to show where my thinking came from 20:42:03 phyphor: one difference: in paper&pen, there is no cost (interface etc.) for active powers, so you can just use them 20:42:27 dpeg: currently the formulas for auxes do not separate dex and str so much 20:42:50 autofight does help _a lot_ in making activated abilities feel like passives 20:42:54 dpeg: I was thinking that to achieve an effect you sometimes use both a stat and a skill, and again to see the outcome, hence my suggestion 20:43:21 but if there is a desire to make stats stand out more that's important for me to think about 20:43:41 elliptic: well, any Mi will have reasonable amounts of both Dex and Str, no? 20:43:48 i.e. in order to see the effect kick in 20:43:56 also, tweak the formula, tweak it! 20:44:25 evilmike: I don't understand... you still have to activate the thing by yourself? 20:44:33 dpeg: I'd say that requiring a successful dodge is enough dex dependence without making the chance of retaliation also just depend on dex... what about a fixed chance of retaliation whenever you dodge, and then the retaliation damage depends on both str and dex? 20:44:40 dpeg: with reaching on polarms, you just press tab and it will reach automatically 20:44:59 the autofight script is currently a bit basic but it gets the job done 20:45:26 evilmike: yes, because reaching does not need questions 20:45:36 I've been spending a lot of time holding down autofight recently 20:45:39 it is pretty nice 20:46:03 did you ever try autorobin's FeBe stuff? 20:46:17 elliptic: I assume that ordinary headbutt damage takes into account Str and Dex? 20:46:23 yeah 20:46:36 str matters more than dex 20:46:46 elliptic: so give Mi retaliation that with doubled stats? 20:47:10 (or alternatively, multiply damage by factor) 20:48:22 no need for doubled stats, I think... I'd just go for the same damage as a regular headbutt, and then multiply by a factor if we decide it should be higher 20:48:39 ok 20:48:48 maybe multiply based on damage taken 20:48:57 and/or adjust chance based on damage taken 20:49:09 Xiberia: this is for successful dodges, so no damage taken!? 20:49:29 well that's what i get for jumping into the middle of a conversation 20:49:30 is tension working properly now? If so maybe boost based on that?# 20:50:21 Tension is good for some things, but it shouldn't be used everywhere. Here, for example, I'd be worried it can be gamed. 20:50:46 lava orcs were a good example of how tension scales can be bad, i think 20:51:18 -!- syllogism has quit [] 20:52:10 I think it depends how regularly tension is used. If all the time (Lava Orc), then it is easier to game (and more useful) than if it is checked more rarely (e.g. Xom). Similarly, harder to use if it determines damage compared with information (Ashenzari). 20:53:34 The reason nI suggested tension is I was thinking, tehmatically, of a bull getting angrier, without having any berserk effects as that get s complicated 20:53:53 and by "complicated" I mean unpleasant and annoying 20:54:10 one thing about basing it on dodge: that sucks for heavy armor users 20:54:23 this is probably ok 20:54:39 alefury: why sucks? It is a pure bonus -- your choice if/how to utilise it. 20:54:45 well, its useless. 20:54:53 minotaur is already very strong in heavy armour and too many mi use it anyway 20:55:22 mi is one of the few really good heavy armor users that are left, no need to push them towards dodging imo 20:55:27 alefury: but it is not as if anybody it taking something away from them 20:55:46 dodging minotaur is viable but doesn't get any play, possibly just because many people don't think of it 20:56:04 did you know that a mibe will have 21 dex on average at xl 27? 20:56:37 mikee_: really? one thing ive seen mentioned a few times recently is MiGl, so i assumed dodgy ones get a fair amount of play 20:56:45 why would migl be dodgy 20:57:04 being a gladiator isn't really about dodging, it's about starting with throwing nets 20:57:04 because you can just go MiFi if you want heavy armor? 20:57:17 this is a seperate problem between fighter and gladiator 20:57:28 there is actually no reason to go fighter 20:57:31 okay, i just expected MiGl to use light armor 20:57:36 because gladiator is just a better version 20:57:48 ah 20:58:01 well i can guarantee that the majority of migl wins use heavy 20:58:05 I had heard that the reaons to go Fi are getting fewer 20:58:43 there was some talk about giving them enchanted equipment, but i guess nothing came of it 20:59:13 no, we had someone confidently say it is not necessary 20:59:26 other options were discussed too. i think in the end elliptic said fighters dont need a buff and everyone stopped discussing it. 20:59:26 does not really jibe well with "Gl > Fi always" :) 20:59:35 fighter could do with a buff of some kind (only enough to compete with gladiator) 20:59:49 to me the main thing about gladiator is just the throwing nets... great escape option in the early game 20:59:57 that's strange. i thought elliptic would agree with me on that point 21:00:35 i dont remember exactly. it wasnt about fi vs gl anyway. just "fi sucks". 21:00:42 oh, ok 21:00:45 I can sort of see why some people would disagree on that point, and say fighters are fine as they are 21:01:01 I tend to think of things too much in terms of d:1-d:3 survivability 21:01:26 fighter is sort of ok, and they do have some advantages people generally don't think of (highest base hp for example) 21:02:33 good night 21:02:41 -!- alefury has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:03:33 re Mi: flat chance of 10% per attack (say) or increasing chance with attacks _in this round_? 21:04:04 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:07:49 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:08:15 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:11:04 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 21:11:56 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 21:11:58 Evening 21:15:52 -!- Fyren has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:17:06 Hi Cryp71c! 21:23:33 * due back 21:27:06 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 21:30:02 ... 21:30:21 due: ? 21:32:50 -!- Blade has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:34:04 dpeg: robe of folly :) 21:35:40 I wish I was completely acclimated to console so I could be actually surprised and tricked by folly and misfortune 21:36:00 tiles being buggy with them is a little disappointing 21:36:27 tiles? oh right 21:36:30 i forgot people play that : 21:36:54 hah 21:37:17 dpeg: i just had it pointed out to me that dtsund has implemented doomrl-style sidestepping as a combat move in crawl light 21:37:27 but where else do I get to see the wonderful hellephant and executioner tiles or play with cyberspace/space tartarus 21:37:29 that was something you were interested in having, right? 21:37:49 it's cyberspace tartarus, not space tartarus 21:37:53 this is official 21:38:10 officially official 21:38:29 shh, don't tell dpoeg 21:38:37 hack the gibson, get bone rune 21:38:43 eresh looks a little starry, that's all that really made me think of space 21:38:59 MarvinPA: yes, I added it to the wiki a loooong time ago 21:39:03 how does it work out? 21:39:30 i'm not sure, will have to get crawllight and give it a go 21:39:47 might be worth asking casmith 21:39:53 * dpeg doesn't even know what DoomRL sidestepping is :) 21:40:01 active combat moves makes autofight less appealing, oh no 21:40:16 basically exactly how you describe it on the wiki i think 21:40:29 there's a chance that monsters will target the square you were on last turn 21:40:48 so if you approach them in a zigzaggy way they might aim wrong and miss you 21:40:51 MarvinPA: depending on Dex? 21:41:04 with a flat 50% chance in light, or 20% for magical projectiles 21:41:16 I like a Dex dependency there. 21:41:30 yeah, seems like a good thing for dex to influence 21:41:37 doesn't sound very useful for fireball 21:41:43 that sounds nice 21:41:54 spriggan buff 21:42:31 This is why we should support forks -- you'll get something back after a while. 21:42:45 dpeg: agree 21:42:57 definitely seems like the sort of thing that'd be worth trying out even if it does inadvertantly buff spriggans or whatever, they can be nerfed in other ways :P 21:42:59 https://github.com/dtsund/crawl-light/wiki/Sidestepping 21:43:07 as long as there is no hostility (and there isn't any with dtsund and Light), it's great 21:43:19 MarvinPA: exactly 21:43:43 if it makes the game more interesting for everyone and something tiny turns out to benefit too much, we'll nerf that special bit 21:44:23 dpeg: Do you have any objectsions to adding another tier of vampire monsters? Their threat doesn't scale up so well. 21:44:46 due: no, I trust you. 21:44:59 Aslongasyoufinishwhatyoustart, ahem :) 21:45:38 dpeg: Oh, they're already done as custom monster s;) 21:46:05 Which reminds me to check on holies. 21:46:06 evilmike, I LIKE YOUR NEW VAULT. 21:46:08 Are there any missing? 21:46:30 do paladins still drop blessed weapons? 21:46:36 (tso-blessed) 21:46:41 i don't think paladins have their self-sacrifice spell do they? 21:46:52 not sure what else was planned 21:47:11 spirits 21:47:14 yeah 21:47:17 phoenixes 21:47:23 Phoenixes aren't done? 21:47:35 They shouldd resurrect themselves still... 21:47:38 I updated the holy monsters page with the new trunk stuff a few days ago 21:47:52 ooh thanks 21:47:57 I'm too lazy for that 21:48:07 i believe shedu still have some bugs, at least spawning inside walls was one 21:48:10 Really got to sleep. (1) Is the retributtal of Mi good enough to go in in the simple version mentioned by elliptic? (2) Does someone dare to copy Light's sidestepping, with or without Dex factor? 21:48:26 ??shedu[2] 21:48:26 shedu[2/3]: The shedu screeches! The shedu salutes you. _The shedu beseeches The Shining One to heal its mate! _The shedu kicks the shedu! x2 21:48:34 1) I think so, 2) Why not wait and see? 21:48:44 this behaviour is pretty funny but also silly 21:48:49 HangedMan: Good point, their neutrality should be like Dowan and Duvessa's. 21:48:56 But... the whole holiness thing needs a complete overhaul. 21:49:17 (You just have to convince the storngest holy monster on the level; if it doesn't change, none of the otehrs will.) 21:49:22 (If it does change, everything else does.) 21:49:36 sounds neat 21:50:02 okay, if neither (1) nor (2) to go in, please remind me to add them somewhere 21:50:04 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 21:50:13 03due * r817bbedd330e 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/player/base/ (tengu_wingless_brown_m.png tengu_wingless_m.png): Whoops, some tiles I forgot to check-in. 21:50:18 so, for evilmike's holy abyssal rune vault, where th strongest thing, a daeva, is behind a door and behind ophans and an angel and what not... 21:50:24 um what 21:50:42 evilmike: hm? 21:50:47 oh, right that vault. 21:50:47 actually how would that behaviour work for abyss in general 21:51:05 HangedMan: all spawned holy monsters check the currently lsted neutraliaty 21:51:24 With the potential that if it's a stronger threat and you don't convince it, everything will turn against you -- but I'm not sure about that. 21:51:31 mmm 21:51:49 I think somebody had a daeva of xom in that vault, once 21:52:05 Well, xom daeves exist 21:52:10 But they're exclusions to the rule. 21:52:23 They'd never be considered potential holy allies so there's never a conversion check. 21:52:45 mmmm 21:52:57 !wiki test 21:53:07 Damn, we need a !wiki equivalent to source. 21:53:10 Excpet it pastes a link. 21:53:21 HangedMan: which page did you update? 21:53:33 new holy monsters for 0.8 21:53:40 ah 21:53:57 (there are a lot of messy things with the names in the wiki) 21:53:59 @??blessed toe 21:53:59 blessed toe (08*) | 04UNFINISHED | Speed: 10 (move: 200%) | HD: 14 | Health: 77 | AC/EV: 50/1 | Flags: 08holy, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 08holy | XP: 4953 | Sp: holies, heal other, holy word. 21:54:15 Has anyone played with them recently? 21:55:31 @??curse toe 21:55:31 curse toe (08z) | Speed: 12 (move: 200%) | HD: 14 | Health: 77 | AC/EV: 50/1 | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 7890 | Sp: summon undead, mushrooms, torment symbol. 21:55:54 they're basically holy curse toes, yes. 21:56:10 I remember screwing around with them in arena (oh my god arena has so many bugs right now) and all I really remember is warning, this creature is unfinished spam 21:56:34 I'm still not sure about that glyph. 21:57:07 while apparently the process of cursing bodyparts involves lots of fire and magical runes to make them resilient I don't think the toe of a saint really needs the 50 ac from the same general process 21:57:22 True. 21:58:15 summoning holies will already be nasty enough without all that 22:01:51 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 22:02:10 03dolorous * rdf714ea2c441 10/crawl-ref/source/species.cc: Fix the species abbreviation for Kenku -> Tengu: Ke -> Te. 22:03:16 Oops, thanks, looks like I missed that one. 22:04:09 03evilmike * r1bffe3355ee1 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-dngn/wall/ (12 files): Updated Tartarus stone walls. (Denzi) 22:04:34 just need to try out denzi's new pan tiles now (the floors have teeth!) 22:04:49 evilmike: did it compile okay? 22:04:54 (with the recent kenku tweaks) 22:05:21 oh. I don't know, I'll try. 22:06:27 everything works 22:08:45 yay thanks 22:10:17 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:13:04 hmmm 22:13:28 Crap. 22:13:34 validate{{}} for Jory doesn't work properly. 22:13:45 Okay, I'll need to do it annother way. 22:22:48 Actually, I've noticed random , glyphs appearing on the map. 22:22:51 Anyone know what those are? 22:23:12 due, rwbarton just mentioned that on ##crawl 22:23:14 is it the same thing? 22:23:25 I don't know 22:23:38 he said it's cloud traps that a monster has triggered out of los 22:23:41 i believe it's https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4624 22:26:54 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 22:32:19 mikee_: ah 22:32:31 mikee_: that's what made me think of it, actually; I wasn't sure if it was related. 22:32:47 that mantis entry is about web traps though, so maybe he meant those 22:36:07 okay 22:36:13 is kilobyte around? 22:38:00 Items auto-inscribed with "found in in a treasure trove" (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4861) by xyblor 22:38:45 Isnt't aht already fixed? 22:38:57 evilmike: thanks for fixing that, btw, I forgot that "in" is already included in in it. 22:39:01 yesterday i think 22:39:32 strangely he's on cdo trunk too. i thought that updated more frequently 22:39:44 probably hasn't updated yet 22:41:46 due: no problem. funny thing is I almost didn't notice it after doing a bailey 22:42:28 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:42:37 mikee_: not more than every twelve hours, iirc 22:45:17 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:45:54 veto{{}} doesn't seem to do anything 22:48:05 No item description for Old Crystal Balls (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4862) by xyblor 22:53:01 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:09:20 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 23:13:01 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:14:10 03dolorous * r75476a0b1753 10/crawl-ref/source/ (decks.cc godwrath.cc): Attempt to fix encapsulation-violating hacks involving racial weapon types. 23:14:58 what is this "encapsulation" he refers to? 23:15:09 ;-P 23:16:59 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:17:44 it... seems to work, hm 23:19:30 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:23 the awesome thing about this is that I can just use kilobyte's new changes to map cache to fix any issues :D 23:30:59 Moose the Insei (L3 SETm) ASSERT(!you.turn_is_over) in 'state.cc' at line 173 failed on turn 1816. (D:2) 23:32:15 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 23:32:58 kilobyte: I've added a preplace Lua chunk which is evaluated before the map is even placed and can veto placement -- I'm wondering if a prepick chunk would be better, but that might slow map chosing down a bit. 23:49:52 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:53:52 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 23:56:53 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev