00:04:30 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 00:05:09 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 00:09:26 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 00:12:20 03evilmike * r1cef3b35c2da 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/large.des: Two diamond shaped vaults for mid-late D. 00:15:47 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 00:15:59 Morning! 00:16:45 Hi Keskitalo! 00:18:10 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:07 -!- Sequell has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:19:13 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:20:11 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 00:34:21 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 00:35:05 -!- mikee_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:35:08 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 00:40:14 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 00:40:44 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:43:01 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 00:43:30 The forum thread on MD got closed? 00:44:54 yeah, galehar stepped in and closed it 00:45:30 Hm 00:45:37 Someone just bitched about it being closed in the blog comments 00:46:02 (after 200 replies it was getting sort of out of hand) 00:46:40 the tavern thread devolved into personal attacks against dpeg, by the looks of it 00:47:36 I'm readnig the last page to double check 00:47:37 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:49:32 It mores seems to be people reacting inappropriately to comments. 00:49:53 Apparently dpeg provided rationale for preferrnig Greek mythology over Tolkein was because he had greek myths read to him as a child, rather than the Silmarillion. 00:50:04 And now someone is saying that they're being flamed as people who had "the simlarilliojn read to them as children". 00:51:37 the personal attacks are near the end 00:51:45 i've seen people react to dpeg like this before 00:52:02 I remember this during his brief foray into the SA forums 00:52:53 Yeah. 00:52:59 "dismissive and incosniderate attitude". 00:53:06 "won't be playing any more releases until dpeg is removed". 00:53:09 it's just a concequence of being brave enough to justify unpopular changes 00:53:14 What do they think this is, some sort of political race? 00:53:30 Where the person who gets the most abuse has to leave in shame for doing something unpopular? 00:54:08 maybe what crawl needs is a PR firm 00:54:28 no 00:54:40 what we need is to step into the shadows, NetHack-esque style. 00:55:09 what, you mean, stop development? 00:55:13 hah 00:55:41 uh, dpeg is not a playable race... 00:55:51 Alas. 00:56:14 what would it be like if it were ? 00:57:38 Probably some sort of divinations expert! It lets you plot the entire game from Turn 0 on D:1, and then you just press "play" and it goes and does it. ;D 00:59:29 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:18 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1667-g1cef3b3 (32) 01:05:05 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 01:06:00 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:06:20 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:06:25 Anyway, most of the people on the fourm seemed relatively sane except for the few people who "registered an account just to ". 01:06:29 Likewise people on th eblog. 01:06:41 So, in summary, I would say that there is actually no community majority crying out about MD. 01:06:52 There are just as many people supportive of it as against it! 01:07:40 probably, yeah 01:07:49 The people who are for the change / don't care (I'm in the latter group) aren't going to be very outspoken. Especially the "don't care" ones, who might be the "silent majority" 01:07:51 And they'll get over it soon enough. 01:07:56 Exactly. 01:10:49 so, the plan: 01:10:59 1) add dpeg as a playable race 01:11:04 2) remove it 01:11:14 3) tell people "okay, we removed dpeg" 01:18:44 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1667-g1cef3b3 01:22:06 moin guys 01:38:41 HE->classical fairy sounds <3 to me 01:39:18 Keskitalo: agree 01:39:20 If you've looked at my "Other Realms" idea for expanding what is currently Pandemonium, one of the realms could well be an old-school fairy realm. 01:39:27 Is the "fuck you" comment still on the blog? 01:39:35 that was deleted days ago 01:39:37 Keskitalo: OOH. Slow-time vaults! 01:39:42 eronarn mentioned earlier that it should be more than *just* a rename, I agree with that sentiment 01:39:50 Nice! 01:39:54 but it wouldn't need to be a total revamp either 01:40:00 Keskitalo: Imagine a vault where monsters outside it move faster :D 01:40:23 Grey Elves' glamour was a nod in that direction, but I suppose it wasn't any good mechanically. 01:40:25 (of course, ranged enemies would be ack) 01:40:30 ??glamour 01:40:30 glamour[1/1]: An ability grey elves recieved in old versions of crawl at xl 5, it tried to confuse, paralyze, charm, scare nearby humanoids. Sucked. 01:40:32 leda's liquefaction is a sort of "slow aura" and works as a monster spell 01:40:34 it's buggy though 01:40:42 evilmike: Yes, I know. I coded it :0 01:41:07 (Hence... buggy.) 01:41:23 the player version works, at least :P 01:41:29 oh good :D 01:41:41 Okay, now my Crypt map... 01:48:44 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 01:50:48 fwiw monster centaurs are fine balance-wise and don't need fixing their speed, since they aren't broken :) 01:51:05 Keskitalo: Eronarn will disagree ;) 01:52:07 that was what i was commenting on. 01:52:39 elynaeandxom (L23 TrCK) (D:27) 01:52:49 elynaeandxom (L23 TrCK) (D:27) 01:52:54 elynaeandxom (L23 TrCK) (D:27) 01:52:59 elynaeandxom (L23 TrCK) (D:27) 01:53:05 elynaeandxom (L23 TrCK) (D:27) 01:53:18 -!- Elynae has joined ##crawl-dev 01:53:23 elynaeandxom (L23 TrCK) (D:27) 01:53:37 Ouch 01:53:42 when I try to exit Zot to get some gear, the game returns to the title screen 01:53:44 !lm elynaeandxom -log 01:53:46 365. elynaeandxom, XL23 TrCK, T:75437 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/elynaeandxom/crash-elynaeandxom-20111102-065323.txt 01:53:58 !lm elynaeandxom crash -log 01:53:59 7. elynaeandxom, XL23 TrCK, T:75437 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/elynaeandxom/crash-elynaeandxom-20111102-065323.txt 01:54:06 Can you copy your savegame? 01:54:40 how did that work again? 01:54:56 In the menu 01:54:58 save game, go to advanced options 01:55:13 do the backup option 01:55:21 or whatever it is called 01:55:27 But I'm sure there's a bunch of monsters somewhere to which different movement/action speed would be good. It'd make *sense* for centaurs, sure, but they're good in the game, so.. (the handwave would be that they're so skilled bow-users, that they can fire faster. And apparently, quick in close combat as well, he he) 01:55:32 https://crawl.develz.org/saves/dumps/elynaeandxom-1cef3b3-111102-0655.tar.bz2 01:56:06 Keskitalo: nagas are like that 01:56:58 yeah. 01:58:12 Keskitalo: http://sprunge.us/BeBg 01:58:14 I'm making it smaller :) 01:58:15 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 01:59:05 being enterable from several directions is probably interesting 01:59:25 Well, oly the lower section 01:59:26 But yes 02:00:48 I'll be randomising the secret doors, as well. 02:02:39 I think I'll need to make the monsters in those sections patrolling oto keep them from leaving, too. 02:14:11 so I got a better stack trace for elynae's crash locally - it comes from map_markers::read(reader&) 02:14:20 oops 02:14:28 did I fuck up fog machines? 02:14:32 I don't know anything about this part of the code, but perhaps it has something to do with the cloud changes? 02:14:33 oh 02:14:37 yes, I probably did 02:14:44 daaamn, daamn damn damn 02:15:21 yes, okay, any save game with a fog machine on another level will... not load properly. 02:15:41 The simplest solution is for me to bump the major version. 02:15:43 But... :/ 02:16:05 (Forgot about fog machine marshalling/unmarshalling.) 02:18:17 Though... in theory I can just write minorversion support for lua 02:20:06 it should be possible for me to clear zot 1-4 before the bugfix though, right 02:20:12 oh yes 02:21:04 due: well, if doing the minorversion support isn't too hard, it would definitely be good to rescue all the games that have already transferred once... 02:21:15 elliptic: yep, I'm doing it right now 02:21:30 due: thanks 02:21:35 my anxiety is more games that will allow you to keep reading past the end of the file 02:21:38 bah 02:21:49 stupid markers! 02:22:52 due: On the Crypt map, you could place different (randomized) statue/curse skull/etc sentries on each entry 02:23:04 Keskitalo: Hmmm, good idea! 02:23:38 Keskitalo: http://sprunge.us/eZPC 02:24:48 elliptic: the only downside to minorversoin support is having to claculate the minor versions out of tag-version.h 02:25:57 due: yeah 02:26:56 which I will just write a script to do 02:27:10 due: You can put the possible secret door spots to other walls as well, at least for I, the opposite wall might be good (since you have to go through the same number of rooms to reach the wall). Don't know if that fits your plan of course (you probably want people to go through certain amount of resistance) 02:27:11 eh 02:27:16 got to go now, cheers! 02:27:17 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:27:33 Actually, I is like that because the major threat is in the room to the right of it, and it is the loot room :) 02:31:05 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:41:31 Okay, I think I've fixed it 02:41:51 awesome; how long will it take till the update, do you think? 02:42:04 let me just make sure I haven't introduced other bugs 02:42:48 after that only a few seconds 02:43:48 moin 02:43:54 hi zaba 02:45:41 -!- Elynae has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:45:43 okay, pushing now... 02:46:28 will update cdo 02:48:15 03due * rf1eeef90454b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/dlua/lm_fog.lua l_file.cc tag-version.h): Fix broken fog machine loading (Elynae). 02:48:50 due, hm.. regarding your crypt ending (which has gotten even better now), the locations of secret rooms are somewhat spoilery. Because there are solid blocks of stone walls which, without magic mapping, upon casual exploration, might look the same as secret rooms. 02:49:30 there are two such blocks, to be exact 02:49:53 Zaba: yes I know, there will be clues 02:57:15 Okay, new version with fix is compiling 02:58:30 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1668-gf1eeef9 (32) 03:05:47 HEH. I got hit by the same bug as Elynae. 03:06:19 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 03:09:37 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 03:09:40 I still have massive issues with harpies. 03:10:24 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:11:04 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 04:11:46 -!- Dondy has joined ##crawl-dev 04:41:00 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:53:22 impressive 71 comments in the byebyegimli post 04:53:31 second best is the 0.6 release post 04:53:37 with 37 comments 04:55:30 the whole mess makes me want to bring back megabats as a higher tier bats (like big kobolds are to kobolds) 04:55:37 Oh dear. 04:55:48 hehe 04:55:49 This last comment is a piece of work. 04:55:50 just so whiners can get a sore throat from yakking :) 04:56:25 magical Giraffe creatures that can’t wear armor, but can wear 8 amulets at a time! 04:56:46 <3 04:57:24 I dunno, I hate pissing people off, if I was in charge I would probably put the MDs back in. 04:58:18 did dtsund decide yet whether to take over this change? 04:58:33 kilobyte: <3 04:58:41 s/Mi/MD and the outcry would have been less loud 04:59:02 somehow, people seem to be dismissing the presence of deep dwarfs 04:59:14 kilobyte: definitely it need to be mountain bat! 04:59:20 after all, it was only one subspecies that was genocided 04:59:27 nothing even remotely scary 04:59:31 Zaba: "because deep dwarves suck" 04:59:40 right 05:00:12 Napkin: great idea! 05:00:15 cool, then you can create more sub species, like himalaya bat, alp bat, andean bat. the possibilites are endless! 05:00:42 ooh 05:02:02 did i mention my holiday in poland got prolonged by two days because of the recent emergency landing and a closed airport? \o/ 05:04:32 by that, I guess you were sitting in central Poland 05:04:45 due: more like because deep dwarves don't fit the popular image of dwarves which mountain dwarves somewhat did (just saying) 05:04:52 you know who else sat in central poland 05:05:12 Dondy: I was... being sarcastic, hence the "". 05:05:29 due: sarcasm on the internet - it's still a mystery to me :s 05:05:31 ghallberg: unfortunately, reinstating mountain dwarfs now would set a bad precident in doing what people say if they shout loud enough. I think something positive can be made by looking at this though. 05:05:39 evilmike: Yep 05:05:44 evilmike: I'm just weak. 05:06:03 But I read through the last pages of the thread now, and it seems some people actually agree with us. 05:06:50 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 05:06:53 "you are not a super wise cabal of game designers impervious to mistakes and flaws" 05:07:07 Dondy: Hence why "" is either sarcasm or direct speech. 05:07:10 i think he's mistaken 05:07:12 At least for me. 05:07:25 We are not reinstating mountain dwarves now. 05:07:25 due: noted ;) 05:07:28 yeah, kilobyte, warsawa 05:07:31 I think the lesson behind this is that changes should only be justified if there is an absolute necessity behind it 05:07:50 the blog post was a good idea at the time, but in hindsight, maybe not 05:08:02 evilmike: It also means you should've PAINTED THE FUCKING BIKE SHED GREEN. 05:08:23 green sucks!!!!!! 05:08:33 :D 05:08:35 i think the post was good 05:08:44 evilmike: it would probably have happened anyway when 0.10 came out 05:09:27 many understood why thanks to the good explanation 05:09:27 Someone -- tensorpudding, I think? -- commented somewhere with "how many people would be complaining if it were minotaurs that went". 05:09:27 Napkin: it was a good post, yeah. But once a developer steps up to defend a change, he/she suddenly becomes a target 05:09:27 but the blog post might have been better timed with the release of 0.10 05:09:31 I dont like how the forum thread took a turn for the nasty re: dpeg 05:09:44 bhaak: yeah 05:09:52 no moderator to step in? 05:10:11 someone did 05:10:14 i didn't get the reason to remove them, it was more of a cosmetic change than anything - no? O.o 05:10:15 personal attacks are not acceptable 05:10:46 apparently someone thought that his explanation of being read to from greek myth and cmoparing it to being read to from the silmarillion was a deliberately offensive comment 05:10:49 I am not entirely sure of that. 05:11:28 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:11:38 also napking <3 05:11:51 due! o/ 05:14:06 well, as i know dcss development.. if someone steps up with a great idea how to make some whatever-named dwarven race unique and fun, it'll be accepted 05:15:38 "forge dwarf" is the closest thing so far, it has some issues but there's some potential 05:15:38 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 05:15:48 and then there's always the fork option. I know, that's not an option for non-programmers but that is how it is. with commercial games you often don't even such an option unless the modding engine is explicitly offering it 05:16:12 but looking at the previous implementation of just-better-melee-char-than * - i understand the desire to get rid of it 05:16:56 true, bhaak 05:17:10 as can be seen with dtsund's step 05:17:16 It would be like to implement some neat cameo to this whole debacle. 05:17:26 everyone benefits from forks 05:17:40 ghallberg: would be amusing, but it should wait until things cool down first :P 05:17:54 evilmike: Yeah, but it's time to start thinking about it :P 05:18:05 mornings 05:18:11 dpeg: moin 05:18:14 moin david :) 05:19:02 OOOH! An MD unique called Ploog. 05:19:17 btw, webtiles can write/read ttyrecs soon 05:19:18 He's pretty angry that his whole race was slain by the archangel David. 05:19:25 Maybe 05:20:09 one of the things I've brought up to people before, is if they aren't following trunk very closely they should just stick to stable and read the changelogs. reactions aren't as strong when you get the whole picture, with all you agree and disagree with 05:23:19 true.. i made that mistake a few times in the past :-$ 05:23:19 problem with justifying one controversial change, is people don't notice the good changes that have gone along with it, or that might be coming in the next few months 05:25:56 -!- rawrmage_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:26:28 evilmike: not that i want to push this discussion any further - but - there's no real reason to removing them or not besides cosmetic stuff; if you had 1000 or just 1 MD-type race wouldn't change a thing about the gameplay/balance/etc. - stuff that actually should matter 05:26:49 at least that's as much as i got from the discussion 05:26:59 -!- Lohen has joined ##crawl-dev 05:27:44 -!- Zaba_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:29:24 -!- elly has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- Sequell has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- dpeg has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- Zaba has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- BlastHardcheese has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- Vandal has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- jlewis has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- ivan`` has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- Eronarn has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- CIA-34 has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- alefury has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- bhaak has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- jle has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- djinni has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- oberstein has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- stabwound has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- casmith789 has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- Zannick has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- Adeon has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- mikee_ has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- Danei has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:24 -!- Twinge has quit [*.net *.split] 05:29:25 -!- rawrmage has quit [*.net *.split] 05:30:53 -!- CIA-8 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:30:59 Dondy: well, I think it's more an issue of removing a redundant option, to make it so every race is significantly different. It's certainly not a balance issue 05:31:25 evilmike: Well, redundancy doesn't hurt anyone in this case. 05:31:35 evilmike: well - having redundancy or not is more of a taste issue than anything 05:31:39 There is no maintenance cost for keeping MD 05:31:54 and discussing about taste issues is kinda... tyring :s 05:32:05 yeah. I guess it's more about the number of choices on the menu? 05:32:05 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:19 03kilobyte * r05ff29907443 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/dwarf.des: Allow the alchemist's garden to generate in the Lair. 05:32:19 03kilobyte * ra777208b258d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/large.des: A whitespace fix. 05:32:20 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:20 03kilobyte * r573d05df78ea 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/ (cute_ice_imp.png cute_imp.png): Recompress two tiles with > 7x waste. 05:32:20 03kilobyte * raca8d7b3dd79 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/entry/small.des: Mountain bats. 05:32:21 a lot does boil down to "we prefer this, you prefer that" type stuff 05:32:34 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:35 -!- Eronarn has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:35 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:35 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:35 -!- jle has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:35 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:35 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:35 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:35 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:35 -!- Adeon has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:35 -!- djinni has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:38 ie, bike shedding 05:32:41 -!- Danei has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:45 yeah 05:33:10 -!- jlewis has joined ##crawl-dev 05:33:11 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 05:34:09 I'm fairly neutral about this matter though. What interests me most is the reaction people have, and what that says about communicating (especially justifying) changes. It's interesting. 05:34:21 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 05:34:45 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 05:34:58 evilmike: i think you're over-uhhm-thingying the reaction -- a discussion about a matter of taste will *always* look like that. 05:35:09 I have a hard time seeing the objective benefits of removing the MD. It causes a lot of resentment, but it doesn't really make the game better in any way? 05:36:03 can we please not bring the MD vs !MD into here? 05:36:18 dpeg: do you think the mountain bat vault is too rude? 05:36:34 kilobyte: mountain bats <3 05:36:47 due: Ah well. 05:37:06 Any other good discussion topics for today then? 05:38:18 hmm 05:39:07 on the subject of positive stuff that can be gleaned from all the comments about this, I get the feeling that there are players who think early game content is neglected in favour of late game content. This mostly comes from reddit posts. Anyway, I think I might focus some attention to making interesting early game vaults (I've mostly been paying attention to the [extended] end game) 05:39:34 evilmike: Good idea. 05:39:52 I like vaults! 05:39:52 there are some people who just feel the early game is too hard. too bad for them. others want it to be more interesting and less repetitive though, and I think a lot can be done for that 05:41:21 evilmike: On the contrary, I think we're constantly making the early game harder! 05:41:21 But yes, we coul probably retire a few uniques and add a few new ones... more vaults and maybe another portal vault? 05:41:21 really? I've felt that there have been a few buffs to early game chars 05:41:21 Well, we /did/ spend two versions making the early game nasty 05:41:21 @??grinder 05:41:21 Grinder (025) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 40 | AC/EV: 3/11 | Damage: 11 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(24), 02cold++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 322 | Sp: pain (d10), paralyse, blink. 05:41:21 --^ 05:41:21 +3 hp, no high tier wands early on (except igyb), etc... the early game is hard but there are fewer arbitrary deaths now 05:41:21 grinder is a nasty piece of work but you can at least get off the level (usually) 05:41:21 evilmike: thank you :D 05:41:21 I'm not sure how I could top Grindr. 05:41:21 mara is better than grinder :P 05:41:21 merge sigmund AND grinder :p 05:41:21 I know :D 05:41:23 Mennas. 05:41:27 Dondy: Noo, that reduces the chances! 05:41:46 add redundancy, make two similar sigrinders :p 05:41:55 merge sigmund and grinder into a new unique without removing either 05:42:00 or sigrinder and grindmund! :p 05:42:02 Zannick: better idea :D 05:42:08 due: oh yes, a new portal vault. if someone helps come up with a new concept, that's something i'd love to work on 05:42:29 there is totally room for another early portal vault, and it would help a lot to make that first part of the game more varied 05:42:42 evilmike: Keskitalo was talking about a fairy realm 05:42:45 Global Notice] Hi all, one of our sponsors are experiencing some routing issues -- as a result we are missing a few servers, have a messed up rotation, no services and no web presence. Hopefully we'll return to some normality soon. Thank you for your patience and have a good day (or night, if you're Australian!) 05:42:45 evilmike: kobold lair type? :p 05:42:51 I like the idea of a fairy-realm that runs parallel to D: -- witth random entrances on some levels. 05:43:10 due: he was talking about that for the extended endgame... but that parallel realm sounds interesting 05:43:36 that sounds more like a whole new branch, though 05:43:37 Well, parallel means you could still have an extended endgame entrance! 05:43:45 Yeah. 05:43:59 Also, we probably need Sigmund's sister, Signe, now that we have Edmund. 05:44:09 03kilobyte * r2928e3f6a7af 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/entry/small.des: Don't make the mountain bat vault block others. 05:44:13 03kilobyte * r54c6594ae7cf 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/lair.des: An incentive to actually explore Lair. 05:44:41 it's a family game! :p 05:44:47 due: if there are changes that are contentious and don't seem to have a right answer even after we talk about them a lot in here then maybe we shouldn't make those changes instead of making them and then barring talking about them 05:45:06 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:45:35 evilmike: library portal vault: books on floor you can memorize from, but if you try to take them, something happens 05:45:41 heh heh 05:45:42 Eronarn: i have no idea what you even mean by that. 05:45:50 that reminds me of the silly "dancing spellbook" idea 05:46:03 Eronarn: I just said "can we not drag the MD v !MD argument into here". 05:47:41 -!- Zaba_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:47:41 due: that's exactly what i mean, the argument *should* be held in here 05:47:41 Eronarn: I'm absolutely sick of the argument right now, so either have it in ##crawl, or have it when I'm asleep :p 05:48:22 (And I was specifically referring to the argument, not to the actual discussion of the addition/removal.) 05:49:17 players aren't the ones acting irrationally about MD removal 05:49:30 when decisions get made this way, it actually does look like the devs are just removing stuff for arbitrary reasons 05:49:32 s/ones/only ones/ 05:49:55 or you could say both sides are acting irrational - because there's no rational argument for or against it 05:50:40 fine, I'll just leave now then 05:50:41 goodnight 05:50:59 there are a lot more people who are okay with or like mountain dwarves than there are people who hate mountain dwarves, and the latter group can just not play them 05:51:05 actually, due, if someone was able to come up with a way of differentiating 3 races properly would that be able to be considered or is the entire matter over? 05:51:17 I ask, merely as to whether I spend brain-time on it 05:51:34 Eronarn: like or dislike is not the point 05:52:03 -!- BlastHardcheese has joined ##crawl-dev 05:52:04 phyphor: I honestly do not give a /fuck/. I am sick of the stupid argument, sick of the stupid comments, sick of the countless, hundreds of abusive messages in my in-box eevery morning. 05:52:04 phyphor: it's a game, so like/dislike absolutely should be taken into consideration 05:52:10 due: I apologise for any additional consternation I may have caused. 05:52:10 And I am not in any yaysaying/naysaying position. 05:52:14 goodnight 05:52:23 phyphor: there's some work being done here https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:forge_dwarf 05:52:24 goodnight, I hope you have a pleasant sleep 05:52:35 i would have thought we would have learned something from the megadebacle 05:55:17 apparently not though 05:55:17 you might want to contact file200 if you can find a way, seems to be the one doing most of the work 05:55:18 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 05:55:18 there's also this page: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:minotaur 05:55:18 I am actually pondering suggestign renaming Mi MD, rename Labyrinthe as "dwarven mine" and let both DD and MD have the mapping skill in it 05:55:18 everyone wins, except fans of Crete Mythos 05:55:18 then rebuild Mi as a more bull-ish character 05:55:18 kilobyte: not too rude 05:55:18 Eronarn: the reasons for the removal were not dislike of mountain dwarves, but reducing species redundancy 05:55:18 which is entirely valid and logical 05:55:18 alefury: that is a reason to do it, but people liking mountain dwarves is a reason not to do it 05:55:55 reducing species redundancy is not a very strong argument 05:55:56 people can just get over it, like i did? 05:55:56 and also change, period, should be considered a cost 05:56:14 evilmike: we've never been neglecting early content: ossuary, sewer, new gods, Yiuf etc. 05:56:18 on the contrary. the thing that keeps people playing crawl for such a long time is that it is being constantly developed and changed 05:56:23 no 05:56:26 you are missing the point 05:56:47 dpeg: oh, I know. I just meant that I should probably turn my attention to that some time 05:56:50 that does not mean that crawl can't change; it means that we should look at whether a change brings benefits, because changing itself is costly 05:57:18 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:57:20 well, its not like removing MD was a lot of work 05:57:56 how much time has been spent on talking about it? how many comments did the post get? how many other posts has it spawned? 05:57:57 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:58:00 alefury: It became a lot of work for due obviously. 05:58:04 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- \o/] 05:58:05 What Eronarn said. 05:58:10 what happened to due? 05:58:15 coding time costs are just one part - the real cost here is in player satisfaction 05:58:22 as far as ive seen dpeg took most of the blame 05:58:49 alefury: he mentioned that he has been getting tons of emails about it 05:59:12 alefury: He ranted a bit here before going to sleep 10 min ago. 05:59:29 Justified ranting, not bad ranting. 06:00:03 i feel bad that people are being abusive to the devs but seriously how do you get so out of touch with crawl players that you think removing MD won't cause exactly that kind of reaction 06:00:05 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1638-g783cd33 06:02:13 again, megabats, etc. 06:02:15 removing MD is not a big change. people are just so emotional about it. 06:02:15 ranting and flaming instead of just getting over it and playing a minotaur 06:02:15 alefury: it's cool that you are a robot, but most people aren't 06:02:15 megabats bothered me, and i was happy to see them reverted. i honestly dont care about MD. 06:02:23 -!- BlastHardcheese has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 06:02:23 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:04:28 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:04:29 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:06:05 Players are emotional about the game, what's not to like. Now we move on. 06:06:38 why move on? what kind of player reaction would it take for you to revert the change? is there one at all? 06:07:26 -!- BlastHardcheese has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:07:54 I believe there are two ways forwards, and one way to stay where we are 06:07:58 The outrage about "megabat" was silly (and I sad we reverted). The current outrage about "MD" is a little less silly, but we didn't change the game that is Crawl. If players want to drop out for nostalgic reasons, no problem. They are emotionally attached to their dwarves, I am emotionally attached to minotaurs. Plus, I am sure that Crawl will benefit in the long run from coming up with its own (in the constraints of the genre) mood and flavour. 06:08:16 to stay where we are keep asking "but why" or arguing with the decision without adding anythign constructive. 06:08:41 To move forward come up with a way to have three different races, or to have Mi move to MD (which means changing Labyrinthes) 06:08:44 phyphor: i agree with you. only "staying where you are" is actually "falling behind". 06:09:39 phyphor: admitting that we made the wrong decision is constructive. people do not admit that they are wrong nearly often enough. there is some pretty strong evidence that we did make the wrong decision in this case 06:09:50 -!- BlastHardcheese has joined ##crawl-dev 06:10:16 Eronarn: it is certainly interesting that you say that. (I like your content and ideas -- at least often -- but I think you rarely step back from something.) 06:10:29 And popular outcry != something wrong 06:10:41 The Greeks revolt, does it make Papandreou's decision wrong? 06:11:32 Eronarn: it's only a wrong decision if you can explain why - and "people like MD" isn't enough 06:12:08 wouldn't it be a more reasonable discussion to talk about if redundancy is good or bad? :p 06:13:08 Dondy: no, we already did that. Redundancy is bad. 06:13:22 I told you to read the pas-de-faq! 06:13:29 I DID D: 06:13:34 dpeg: of course i step back from things; it just so happens that even when i stop arguing for them they eventually end up getting coded the way i'd wanted them to be anyways :P (hive removal, guardian spirit change, dracs with bucklers, tornado changes, ...) 06:13:36 but i'm old and i forget ._. 06:13:42 I can go into more detail - it's bad because it confuses new players, doesn't provide anything interesting or challenging to old players 06:14:42 ah - i get it d: 06:15:02 phyphor: the redundancy has existed for many versions; keeping it around for a few more while explicitly trying to rework MD or Mi would be fine. for example, make a blog post saying that dwarves are about to be axed in .11 unless they can be better differentiated 06:16:10 "people like MD" is not enough by itself to say we shouldn't remove them but when the reasons for removing them are so weak it actually is pretty compelling as a reason not to remove them 06:16:14 Eronarn: that is something that is worth considering for future changes, I agree, but c'est la vie 06:16:50 phyphor: no, it does not work like that. we can say 'oops, we were wrong'. there is nothing committing dcss to removing MD but pride 06:17:56 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 06:19:08 -!- rawrmage_ is now known as rawrmage 06:20:57 -!- rawrmage has quit [Changing host] 06:20:58 -!- rawrmage has joined ##crawl-dev 06:27:21 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: sleep] 06:30:25 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:31:02 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:33:32 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:37:36 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:51:06 is there a reason Zin's holy word that's a part of the Sanctuary doesn't grant xp while other abilities (Recite, Imprison's side effects) do? 06:55:25 Is the actor of that holy word still the player, so you can irony-kill yourself with it in Tomb? 06:58:04 same as with Beogh's smiting: it's you who gets cursed for that mummy-shaped pillar of salt, not Zin 07:01:24 can you get mummy-shaped pillars of salt? awesome 07:02:39 * kilobyte tries to recall who messed with Recite. 07:06:56 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 07:07:08 -!- aria-jaf has joined ##crawl-dev 07:07:17 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 07:08:52 -!- aino has joined ##crawl-dev 07:09:32 -!- aria-jaf is now known as Arian- 07:10:49 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:17:02 kilobyte: no reason I can think of (Recite during Sanctuary) 07:19:22 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 07:24:55 Hey, the comments are so over the top. Thanks to Roderic for inserting some sanity, not that it'd help. 07:32:11 -!- aino is now known as Keskitalo 07:34:39 dpeg: nitpick: I don't think the Gimli post is really appropriate for the news category, it's more just a regular dev blog thing. 07:35:02 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 07:35:35 yeah, especially because so far the change is only in trunk 07:35:55 -!- jle_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:36:01 (easy fix: a quick release of 0.9.2 without MD) 07:36:33 Keskitalo: ah, I wasn't sure what to tick. Could've gone without any categories? 07:36:43 on it 07:36:44 yes! 07:36:52 Napkin: thanks :) 07:37:19 now someone will look at "Latest news" and think "omg! they *deleted* the blog post!!" =) 07:37:21 well, i think "play-testing" is appropriate 07:37:31 we use it kinda like "development news" anyways 07:37:35 alefury: I suspect that would break the "no major changes unless it's a major version change" thing. 07:37:57 i wasnt serious 07:38:00 Unless you consider MD a bug. :P 07:38:04 hehe 07:39:00 fixed. 07:39:23 reflavor our dwarves as myrmen 07:39:24 This is not entirely new. I got similar reactions (including the "dpeg is this, dpeg does that") when I posted on SA for a while and tried to explain the labyrinth changes. And ##crawl also had a tendency like this. 07:39:30 maybe i should reply to the "oh noes, comment deleted!"? 07:39:52 Eronarn: Reflavour them as Elves. 07:40:06 rename DD as "Drowe" :) 07:40:07 Everyone will be so pissed. 07:40:10 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * r9703cc942db8 10/crawl-ref/source/ (melee_attack.cc melee_attack.h misc.cc misc.h): Move move_stairs to misc.cc 07:40:11 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * r20c634247145 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Comment and whitespace fix 07:40:11 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * rba6051510a9e 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Remove deprecated message logic 07:40:11 phyphor: :D 07:40:13 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * re716cd7f22b8 10/crawl-ref/source/ (melee_attack.cc melee_attack.h): Rename player_check_weapon_effects 07:40:13 to *really* piss people off 07:40:30 Cryp71c: I LOVE seeing those commits. 07:40:52 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:40:53 DD = Deep Deep Elf 07:41:06 ghallberg, I LOVE getting positive responses for my commits, so it seems it goes both ways :P 07:41:20 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 07:41:33 Eronarn: Double Deep Elf 07:41:45 -!- rawrmage has quit [Quit: Disconnecting from stoned server.] 07:42:47 -!- rawrmage has joined ##crawl-dev 07:42:48 -!- rawrmage has quit [Changing host] 07:42:48 -!- rawrmage has joined ##crawl-dev 07:42:48 regarding the release name brainstorming yesterday: a while ago someone came up with "malnourished mountain dwarves", i really liked that 07:42:48 hey, let's straight up steal something 07:42:55 dwarves are like ants, they have a 'hive mind' 07:43:04 murdered mountain dwarves 07:43:10 deep dwarves are the only ones who aren't connected, which is why they cannot heal, and are outcasts 07:43:20 ghallberg: malnourished incorporates the food reform debacle :) 07:43:37 alefury: We now name out releases for our failures? 07:43:38 I like it. 07:43:58 and give MD very good passive detection abilities 07:44:28 Eronarn: because the mountain-dwelling dwarves feel so at home in the dungeon? 07:44:48 alefury: no, because they're psychic! :D 07:44:50 passive detection via hivemind only works if youre hive-buddies are actually around 07:44:53 Cryp71c: I'm also like "gogogo!" each combat rewrite commit :) great to see you back! 07:44:57 *your 07:45:04 Keskitalo, thanks, yeah Its good to finally be back. 07:45:17 Eronarn, like the Koala bears.... 07:45:30 alefury: generations of dwarves have lived and died inside the earth, so now they're in tune with it 07:45:41 generations of deep dwarves have lived and died inside the earth 07:45:46 I see them...eating their eucalyptus leaves...being all psychic.... 07:45:49 alefury: Mountain Dwarves are REALLY small, but they are standing on top of each other to fight theur enemies. 07:45:51 generations of mountain dwarves have lived on mountains 07:46:05 And som e are out scouting (too small to do any damage alone though) 07:46:05 mountain dwarves live *in* mountains 07:46:07 not on them 07:46:22 Ooh I like this idea. 07:46:23 i always thought they lived on them, in mining towns or something 07:46:31 no 07:46:33 they're a D&Dism 07:46:38 alefury: That would probably be Hill Dwarves? 07:46:43 From DF at least. 07:46:45 mountain dwarves live in moria-style mines in the mountains 07:46:47 No, they are elite stonemasons by nature, so buillding INTO a mountain is their norm. 07:46:52 -!- Dondy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:46:59 hill dwarves live in hills instead (and are more likely to be seen on the surface) 07:47:18 ok 07:47:27 btw, some random dwarf in the witcher 2 sometimes says: heigh ho, heigh ho 07:47:33 that made me chuckle 07:47:34 Hmm I like this idea of playing a shambling heap of ants or something. 07:49:53 http://www.kaheel7.com/userimages/ant_bridge_03.JPG 07:49:53 ghallberg: hydra slayer has halflings as a twin race 07:49:53 so you get two of them 07:49:53 Eronarn: Sounds cool. 07:49:53 They move together or do you get double amount of moves? 07:49:53 GAH! My pandora was playing all night on my workstation...so now its gotten itself onto wierd music that's completely not what my channel is for... 07:49:53 Hmm, pandora. 07:49:53 I almost used that once >.< 07:49:53 sweet forbidden fruit :( 07:49:53 its good, but hasnt been available in germany for a long time 07:49:53 ghallberg: you control one and the other is AI, or something 07:49:53 ghallberg, I've got the premium account, I listen to it pretty much all day while I work, and whenever I game. 07:49:53 and you can do some kind of combo move 07:49:53 i haven't actually tried it 07:49:53 alefury, gogo gadget proxy 07:49:53 :P 07:49:54 Cryp71c: Not available in Sweden, so Spotify won out. 07:49:54 im too lazy for that 07:49:54 ah 07:49:54 alefury, it'd be terribly quality anyways. 07:50:00 I laugh when people suggest proxy as a real solution to a real problem...unless people are finding excellent proxy servers that have elluded me. 07:50:13 Maybe if you paid for one it'd be better.... 07:50:19 anyways 07:52:39 I wonder why those who say "I quit" then never can let go. 07:53:16 hah, got a seat on a plane tomorrow 07:53:39 Napkin: swapping the Polish countryside with German wastelands again? 07:53:50 haha :D 07:54:23 actually, it's the other way around - from my hut in the green to stinky warsaw at the moment ;) 07:56:58 -!- Ashmodai has joined ##crawl-dev 08:02:06 03dolorous * r0b359429fb45 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Fix Mantis 4847 by removing asphyxiation resistance from monster ice beasts. 08:03:38 Uhm, drowning Ice Beasts? 08:05:03 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 08:05:10 ghallberg: they swim 08:05:10 or rather, float 08:05:13 hmm 08:05:24 shouldn't they be resistant though? 08:05:29 Wouldn't that be logical? 08:06:54 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 08:07:58 well, they do breathe 08:08:19 Ok 08:08:23 If you say so :) 08:08:26 i dont know if it even makes a difference for creatures with rP 08:08:48 does it affect anything but curare and mephitic cloud? 08:09:07 <|amethyst> now that rP isn't 100% effective it makes a difference 08:09:57 elliptic said they breathe in the mantis issue. also i think rp is still 100% for monsters 08:10:21 at least the commit message said monster resist is unchanged 08:10:28 i havent played with poison since then 08:10:41 <|amethyst> oh 08:10:56 <|amethyst> well, also water-based attacks (primal wave etc) 08:13:12 <|amethyst> hmm... looks like it doesn't affect meph cloud at all, that's unbreathing 08:13:23 <|amethyst> so just BEAM_WATER and curare 08:13:26 Menkaure supplicates, "Please! I have a lot of children!" 08:15:19 so what's differnet between sphyx res and unbreathing? 08:16:35 -!- greatzebu__ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:17:35 ghallberg, asphyx res is really....retarded in the code, I always meant to fix it but never did 08:17:35 <|amethyst> Asphyx res affects only BEAM_WATER and curare. Unbreathing grants rAsphyx and rDrown, and also protects against meph and spore. 08:17:58 asphyx res is actually curare res, yeah. 08:17:58 <|amethyst> Ice beasts have rDrown independently from their habitat 08:18:12 and unbreathing is actually rAsphyx, conceptually speaking. 08:18:17 at least IMO 08:23:44 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:24:23 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:27:50 -!- Lohen has quit [] 08:35:16 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.7/20100713130626]] 08:35:25 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 08:36:14 -!- Ashmodai has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:36:24 been listening to some of these roguelike radio podcasts, it's interesting that some of the people on it think crawl is almost purely focused on mechanics over story 08:37:01 -!- Vandal has quit [Client Quit] 08:37:03 someone just said that you could change crawl to be sci-fi and it'd make no difference, clearly not the same school of thought as those who are desperate for their dwarf fix :P 08:41:38 autorobin the Ducker (L1 FeBe) ASSERT(x >= 1 && x <= sz.x) in 'libutil.cc' at line 941 failed on turn 15. (D:1) 08:41:46 autorobin the Ducker (L1 FeBe) ASSERT(x >= 1 && x <= sz.x) in 'libutil.cc' at line 941 failed on turn 15. (D:1) 08:42:38 hehe, MarvinPA 08:43:44 i'm surprised that darren grey commented like he did in the byebye gimli post 08:44:37 well, they are partly true, MarvinPA @mechanics 08:44:47 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 08:45:11 there is no "go search the free the lair from the monsterous hordes of nature" kinda story 08:45:17 definitely in comparison to things like adom, yeah 08:47:12 atrodo (L17 FeNe) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,21) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 08:50:25 -!- greatzebu__ has quit [Quit: greatzebu__] 08:53:40 atrodo (L17 FeNe) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,21) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 08:56:18 03kilobyte * ra6a93d157719 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Give XP and blame for kills with Zin's holy word in Sanctuary. 08:57:29 haha wow there's a lot whining about the removal 08:57:29 syllogism: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 08:57:36 !messages 08:57:36 (1/1) syraine said (3w 2d 20h 52m 47s ago): BAILEY BAILEY 08:59:01 syllogism, about MDs? 08:59:22 yes 09:00:16 figured as much 09:00:40 MDs - despite their lack of diversity - are imagined to be a "core race" 09:00:42 qq is only natural. 09:01:43 if you are going to use words like 'lack of diversity' it makes a lot more sense to apply that to minotaurs 09:02:02 dwarf mechanics/apts are pretty spot on for what one would expect a dwarf to have in a game like crawl 09:02:08 minotaurs not so much 09:03:40 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:03:43 move Mi to MD, remove horns. move labyrinths to "dwarven mines" and give MD and DD the bonus. Re-make Mi as a more bull-like creature. 09:05:50 Now I've fixed that little issue I'm gogin to fix the Palestine/Israel scuffle :) 09:06:01 good work :P 09:07:36 Eronarn, s/lack of diversity/whatever official reason they were removed. 09:07:40 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:07:54 phyphor: you mean, genocide one of the sides? That would work. 09:11:59 -!- valrus_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:12:45 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 09:13:38 -!- Textmode has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:14:06 03kilobyte * r506e49af28fa 10/crawl-ref/source/ (skills2.cc species.cc): Make Fe/Op genus names apply to all cases, not just non-god skill titles. 09:14:27 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 09:14:47 kilobyte: actually I was thinking of the Aliens approach 09:16:38 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:19:03 nuking the site from orbit? 09:20:17 well, the important first step is to take off 09:20:23 it's the only way to be sure 09:21:47 What would you guys think of developing a standardized set of methods for calculating things (particularly combat-values, like to-hit, base-damage, weapon-damage, evasion, ac, etc.) for both monsters and players, allowing for variance betwen the two based on stats returned by similarly standardized functions on the player / monster classes 09:25:53 could work... the current mess is fixable only cpl Hicks' way 09:26:05 cpl Hicks' way ? 09:26:05 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:26:18 come on Cryp71c 09:26:22 get your references straight 09:26:41 Its been YEARS, YEARS since I've seen any of the aliens 09:27:08 sounds like something one should do something about! 09:27:13 and it's been 5 minutes since it was last referenced! 09:27:15 strictly speaking, both him and Ripley said that line 09:27:17 at least alien 1 & 2 09:27:34 not sure who was first 09:28:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s1MspmfEwg - Ripley says it 09:29:26 kilobyte, in any case, the biggest issue - I imagine - will be adjusting everything for balance, I don't foresee universal methods that will result in the same values across the board. If we use HD, for example, when calculating weapon skill, it may prove problematic down the road. 09:29:34 So, care must be taken, I think...and patience to be had. 09:30:24 atrodo (L17 FeNe) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,21) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 09:30:44 atrodo (L17 FeNe) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,21) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 09:31:17 phyphor: http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Aliens.html 09:31:34 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:33:47 Ah, yeah, Hicks says it later on 09:34:23 directly referencing Ripley's words 09:34:30 kilobyte, do you think that an attempt to unify that code should occur in the UCC branch, or separate/delay it 09:38:59 hard to say... would be good but might be tricky to balance quickly 09:40:06 right, it might be better to get UCC finished, then use a small branch to implement the initial changes... 09:46:27 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:49:10 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 09:51:16 Anyone think of a good boring demon that could use Death's Door as the escape spell? 09:52:21 Keskitalo: the spell sounds like something that works only on the living 09:52:55 Does it have flavour messaging that would be confusing? 09:53:08 pointless_: ballistomycetes have been nerfed into total irrelevancy. What about giving them a massive boost? 09:53:23 demons aren't living ? 09:53:49 Yeah, they are a total non-threat - I always make cleaning up the colony a priority, and I've never had a spore spawn on me. 09:54:04 they could be boosted to some extent, I'm not really interested in dealing with it 09:54:15 demonspawn can cast it at least 09:54:34 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:54:58 although they're not quite the same as regular demons i suppose 09:55:40 solution: give ballistomycetes Death's Door! 09:55:48 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:57:58 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:03:10 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:08:51 -!- valrus_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:08:56 -!- valrus__ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:10:33 when boosting ballistomycetes some care needs to be taken to make them not super annoying 10:11:17 and cleaning up the colony is already important because if you dont it will spread and everything is full of them and you can never ever get rid of them again 10:11:54 its kind of like a distant slurp for me, i start frantically looking for those damn shrooms to exterminate them because they cause too much damage 10:12:06 if left alone 10:12:57 active ballistomycetes could explode on death 10:13:21 but having to finish them off with a ranged attack could get annoying 10:13:30 Was gonna say just that. 10:15:11 could be a ball-lightning style spore explosion 10:15:27 but then those spores shouldnt make more shrooms 10:15:36 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:15:36 or some other stuff would need to be changed 10:20:18 some simple things can be done, e.g. make spores generated wandering rather than asleep so you don't pop a sleeping spore, kill a couple ballistos and instantly get 1000xp, changing the activation mechanism so that the timer isn't reset when an active ballisto is killed 10:20:31 and changing the timer length is also an option 10:20:42 but someone has to test it and adjust parameters 10:20:45 (not me) 10:21:30 pointless_: no time, or no fun? 10:21:50 not hugely interested in crawl these days, although I seem to be killing a lot of octopodes the past couple weeks 10:22:00 the fun may come back 10:22:18 anyway, off to exercising -- need to improve my UC now that I got threat letters 10:23:29 nowadays you can train UC without exercising though! 10:24:03 ... right ... 10:25:59 need to kill folks to get xp, though 10:27:04 what do you think has been happening to all those people who post once on the forum and never again? 10:27:54 ah cool :) 10:36:28 dpeg: what have I told you about baiting players to train UC? 10:46:44 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 10:51:49 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:52:16 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.7/20100713130626]] 10:55:09 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:56:06 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:58:19 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:08:33 Keskitalo: tome has a grappling monster that has a ddoor style effect; it's pretty terrifying 11:09:27 what's the idea of misc.{h,cc} 11:09:27 though in that case, the monster cannot directly use it - its 'captain' monster casts the spell as an aoe 11:09:28 ? 11:09:35 SamB: misc functions 11:09:50 SamB, same as of stuff.cc? 11:10:11 and mon-stuff.cc 11:10:14 what, you mean stuff.{h,cc} aren't related to inventory-management ? 11:10:25 no 11:10:26 at least mon-stuff has a theme 11:10:35 * SamB was being sarcastic ;-) 11:13:01 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 11:16:06 could we avoid moving stuff to any such vaguely-named headers for no other reason than it not fitting where it was before, if those headers happen to be pulled in by AppHdr.h ? 11:16:17 * SamB glares at Cryp71c 11:16:32 ideally we would indeed not add more of such disorganized code :P 11:18:57 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 11:19:26 I'm sure there's someplace better for move_stairs to go 11:19:49 SamB, how can I identify which headers are pulled in by AppHdr ? 11:20:20 hmm, maybe that isn't actually 11:20:23 just used a lot of places 11:20:45 but, AppHdr.h.d will tell you if you build with PCH=y 11:21:05 kilobyte: when are we making PCH the default? 11:21:12 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 11:21:36 Cryp71c: I guess I jumped the gun in this case 11:26:22 okay, it's only pulled in by 69 files. nevermind. 11:26:54 (though it still seems like there's probably a better place to put it!) 11:28:16 Cryp71c: did that capitalization thing get found yet ? 11:30:21 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:31:17 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110929064733]] 11:33:10 -!- dondy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:39:19 kilobyte, when you implemented the auto-caps stuff, is it in mprf or a separate method? 11:44:23 -!- greatzebu__ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:45:12 -!- greatzebu has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:45:12 -!- greatzebu__ is now known as greatzebu 11:54:24 Cryp71c: oh, it's mprf alright 11:58:28 -!- greatzebu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:00:31 k, kilo did it originally, I'll take a look at it myself 12:00:32 -!- greatzebu has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:00:32 -!- greatzebu_ is now known as greatzebu 12:11:17 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:11:38 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 12:19:53 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 12:23:31 Cryp71c: I'm having a go at fixing it, actually 12:24:10 It isn't exactly pretty, but if it turns out to be to ugly to live it will be very easy to revert it! 12:25:47 back 12:27:42 This reminds me: can someone look at and push GreatZebu's inscription patch? (4841) 12:28:53 hey dpeg, just wanted to say I support MD removal, fuck the haters 12:28:56 <- sycophant 12:29:21 (I gather you've been getting a lot of abuse over it) 12:29:27 okay, Mr. Crumb 12:29:50 what 12:33:55 valrus: it's okay 12:34:15 I did get a bit nervous after a while but the louder they scream, the less we can go back. 12:34:27 A spiral that commenters pointed out to them, to no avail of course. 12:37:05 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 12:38:19 so it goes 12:38:24 change is scary 12:39:05 do you have an opinion on the charge that changes all seem to be geared toward the best players? 12:39:07 i'm getting it on SA now 12:39:27 SA seems like it would be the worst place 12:39:29 idk why people love dwarfs so much 12:39:47 or hate them, since 95% of them die 12:40:42 valrus: I am one of the worst players of Crawl. Having two races sort of the same didn't help me. 12:40:54 I remember back in 0.5 MiBe was the best 12:41:05 I'm not sure I'm still talking about MD anymore 12:41:06 It always made me wonder when MDFi got recommended instead 12:42:01 i think "devs catering towards the elite players" has been a claim for as long as i can remember playing crawl 12:42:45 and it's been pretty clearly incorrect the whole time, too, it is strange that it's still a prominent complaint 12:43:04 ok 12:43:23 on a different project i helped with "devs catering towards the new players" was a common complaint instead, funnily enough :P 12:43:26 just wondering, I think I'm close enough to being one of the better-ish players that I'm not able to evaluate that claim fairly 12:43:31 I think the problem is that if something is too easy (say, how FeBes were) then it needs to be corrected which makes it harder - that's not making it for the elite player but making it better 12:43:56 truth 12:44:13 exactly, yeah - it's pretty much unavoidable that improving balance is going to make at least some things harder 12:44:25 I mean, I was a little annoyed when FeBes were worsened (as it seemed to be a direct attack on people making bots), but I can understand why 12:44:46 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 12:45:44 MarvinPA: the claim comes from the fact that we nerf. We also buff, obviously, but the nerfs stick better in players' minds. 12:46:40 players never realise games are better when you take away the things that make it too easy 12:46:46 "never"? 12:48:15 Mu_: which is why when I win a game I expect the class/race combo to get nerfed because if I can win it it must be too easy 12:49:31 sorry i can't perceive grey 12:53:47 :) 12:54:07 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:54:11 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Client Quit] 12:54:58 I'm really not a "good player" 12:55:12 I haven't even seen the orb yet (though my last run was pretty close) 12:55:33 But I still don't think it's too hard. 12:55:36 hint, play zot def =) 12:55:41 scnr 12:56:21 :P 13:03:57 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:04:03 -!- _co_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:08:08 03GreatZebu * rf42af4d6fdfc 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Annotate weapons and armour dropped by uniques with its original owner. 13:09:15 <_co_> Does anyone know where the fire vulnerability of the mummy player race is declared? 13:09:32 <_co_> It doesn't seem to be a regular mutation. 13:10:17 maybe it's not declared ? 13:10:26 greatzebu: yay! I wondered why you didn't do it yourself. :) 13:10:29 <_co_> oh well how is it done then? 13:10:31 @??mummy 13:10:31 mummy (15M) | Speed: 6 | HD: 3 | Health: 15-24 | AC/EV: 3/6 | Damage: 20 | Flags: 07undead, evil | Res: 06magic(20), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire, 08holy++ | XP: 18. 13:10:45 * SamB wonders if that's related 13:10:46 oh, got something wrong 13:10:50 dpeg: that was me :P 13:10:56 who pushed it, that is 13:11:10 <_co_> Im not talking about the monster. 13:11:19 _co_: I know 13:11:42 it looks like player_res_fire just checks directly for whether you're a mummy 13:11:50 nasty 13:11:56 <_co_> Ah 13:12:00 not like we don't do that shit everywhere though 13:12:04 <_co_> Thank you 13:12:07 well there isn't a fire vulnerability mutation 13:12:24 maybe there should be! :P 13:12:34 <_co_> hehe :) 13:12:42 You sweat kerosene. 13:12:48 why do we need mutations for those things for players, but not for monsers? 13:13:29 because player/monster symmetry isn't a thing in crawl :P 13:13:43 yet :-( 13:13:52 as evidenced by how much work cryptic is having to do to unify combat :( 13:16:07 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:16:07 what does "unify" mean? 13:16:08 03SamB 07unified_combat_control * r3823072b0743 10/crawl-ref/source/ (11 files): Attempt to stop capitalising inventory letters in messages. 13:17:37 i've not actually been following the branch in detail but i think the gist is to have the code treat monsters and players mostly the same in terms of deciding how combat pans out 13:18:30 -!- _co_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:19:18 so it's not intended to change functionality, but to make the code nicer and easier to add things to 13:19:23 As I understand it, it's not supposed to change any values/balance, just simplifying working in the code? 13:19:26 combat moves, for example 13:19:27 yeah 13:19:55 an admirable goal 13:20:19 if there was totally different code for players and monsters it should make a big difference in comprehensibility 13:23:43 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:25:18 MarvinPA: the get hit for over 1/6 maxhp trigger for the foul stench 2 miasma cloud seems a bit high 13:25:57 rot/miasma immunity is not a big bonus for most parts of the game as it is 13:26:57 yeah, i was thinking it should probably trigger a little more often 13:27:13 maybe make the threshold fairly low but have it be a little randomised instead 13:27:57 ghallberg: not significantly, anyway 13:27:58 that could work, the single big hit just does not happen very often 13:28:29 but it is assumed that it will probably do so at least initially ;-) 13:28:43 SamB: yeah 13:29:48 MarvinPA, ghallberg, you can take those preconceptions of "not changing functionality" and throw them out the nearest window. 13:29:59 mroovka the Archmage (L27 DEIE) (Pan) 13:30:06 03dolorous * r1d392ee10b97 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc: Simplify beastly_slot(). 13:30:17 Sorry :( Its just not possible with how big a change is occuring from master combat code vs UCC combat code. 13:30:39 I'm doing my best to minimize it, and I've done a good job, I think, but its not going to be a perfect conversion. 13:31:05 right, i don't think anyone would expect it to maintain exactly the same behaviour as currently :P 13:31:07 Cryp71c: I think we all understand that things are going to be changed 13:31:10 SamB, thanks for your capitalisation fix. 13:31:25 but hopefully not noticeably, except where we can see that the old behaviour was in error 13:31:50 yeah, I've stripped out a lot of stuff that was special cased, or messages that were intentionally delayed because of how the fight code processes. 13:32:01 what would be the point if you reimplemented the same messy mess we have now in another way ? 13:32:10 * valrus silently hopes this means a Nessos nerf 13:32:12 shit 13:32:20 Some of them were unintentional fixes :P I had this organizational paradigm in mind of how combat would proceede, and found - recently - that I had unintentionally fixed the whole emit_nodmg_message stuff :P 13:32:29 SamB, indeed. 13:32:52 we just want a reasonable approximation 13:33:08 But yeah, for what its worth, player / monster symmetry is the end-goal. 13:33:52 -!- ivan`` has joined ##crawl-dev 13:34:00 did you know nergalle can drink healing potions while she has ddoor up 13:34:17 hmm, i thought i fixed that 13:34:20 god, this whole "internet blacklist" thing is crazy 13:34:38 MarvinPA: dunno when you fixed it, it happened maybe a week ago 13:34:54 ah, i fixed it just a couple of days ago 13:34:54 SamB: ? 13:34:57 ok cool 13:38:53 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:41:21 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:43:23 -!- valrus__ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:44:52 valrus: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/11/proposed-copyright-bill-threatens-whistleblowing-and-human-rights 13:50:46 dpeg: do you know if anyone is working on the in-game autopickup selection menu? 13:54:37 -!- greatzebu has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:54:46 -!- greatzebu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:55:36 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.7/20100713130626]] 13:58:26 greatzebu_: no, nobody is. Pity that :( 13:59:59 dpeg: in that case I think I'll take a crack at it when I get a chance 14:00:06 it seems like a good feature 14:02:33 dpeg: also thanks for getting my patch pushed. i am always hesitant to ask anyone to take a look :) 14:03:30 greatzebu_: I was surprised you cannot push yourself :) You want it? 14:03:40 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:06:01 dpeg: it would be very convenient, but I don't object to submitting patches 14:07:57 alright 14:08:08 I'll talk to Eino about it. 14:08:17 thanks :) 14:08:35 greatzebu_, if you don't end up w/ commit, submit patches onto mantis and feel free to just link us it, the channel is pretty active during normal hours. 14:08:49 greatzebu_: autopickup menu via \ will be useful, but it does require some thinking. I tried to start the thinking in the Mantis item, but I sure there are cases left. 14:08:50 Most of the time we can look at the diff generated by the patch and tell you whether its good or not. 14:09:45 thanks Cryp71c, I've just been adding patches on Mantis and waiting, but pinging the channel is a good idea 14:11:16 dpeg: definitely true. I think it will be easier to make decisions about how we want an autopickup menu to work once we have a decent prototype though 14:13:45 -!- stabwound has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:15:24 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 14:15:32 -!- stabwound has quit [Changing host] 14:15:32 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 14:25:25 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 14:38:59 dpeg, still here? 14:43:03 yes 14:44:35 after UCC is finished, the next undertaking will be to unify the REAL combat code (calculating AC, EV, to-hit (unarmed, weapons, and spells), etc. etc. etc.), we might also address the player/monster symmetry for lots of stuff in this undertaking as well... 14:45:08 But essentially we'll need to decide how stuff will work for monsters where skills don't exist, for example...are we going to use HD? or perhaps some other value? etc. 14:45:28 So if you've ever had any clever ideas on that subject, awesome, otherwise...maybe something to think about for the (hopefully near?) future. 14:46:02 Or, if you don't want that symmetry, perhaps that's a subject for wider discussion. 14:51:28 nobody ever went that far into the depths of the combat code... we never discussed these matters :) 14:52:20 hehe, well..its straightforward enough to implement, balance is the issue, since monster code is treated completely separate (and even is special-cased based on genus or other monster-specific elements) even with regard to itself. 14:52:36 HD seems like the logical place to start, but might not scale well. 14:52:56 not sure if HD alone will be a good substitute for aptitudes 14:53:21 Do you mean aptitudes in the literal sense (of player aptitudes) or ? 14:53:24 sounds attractive, but it misses stuff ... some monsters should be better with armour (or whatever) than others, despite having same HD 14:53:36 I mean skills, sorry. Tired. 14:55:23 we'd need a table of per-genus aptitudes 14:55:29 or aptitude-equivalents 14:55:53 still, might be better than having every monster as good with every weapon, and having hard-coded exceptions 14:56:08 kilobyte: I think using aptitude is confusing in this case :9 14:57:20 we already have stuff like M_FIGHTER 14:57:42 maybe just add a few more flags like that? 15:00:54 It might make sense to implement a wider set of MFs, yes. 15:01:10 s/MF/M_ flags 15:01:28 But whichever implementation you guys decide on, I'd roll with 15:04:23 -!- FFLaguna has joined ##crawl-dev 15:07:30 -!- mister2 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:08:18 hey, i'm having some trouble with the draw rate on tiles for windows seven. where can i get some help for that? i went into settings and turned the draw rate up to like, 2000000 and it's not helping... 15:08:44 erm...lets see, who knows tiles... 15:08:55 ??dev_team 15:08:55 I don't have a page labeled dev_team in my learndb. 15:09:00 ??crawl_dev 15:09:04 I don't have a page labeled crawl_dev in my learndb. 15:09:06 ??crawl_devs 15:09:07 I don't have a page labeled crawl_devs in my learndb. 15:09:14 what the hell is that learndb entry... 15:09:15 ??devteam 15:09:16 devteam[1/2]: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:help:devteam 15:09:22 of course P: 15:09:34 ??fantasy hipsters 15:09:35 devteam[1/2]: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:help:devteam 15:09:40 nice ellip 15:09:45 ^^ if you have trouble remembering "devteam" 15:10:22 !seen zelgadis 15:10:23 Sorry Cryp71c, I haven't seen zelgadis. 15:10:29 !seen Matthew_cline 15:10:30 I last saw Matthew_Cline at Fri Jul 23 09:03:54 2010 UTC (about 1y 14w 5d 11h 6m 35s ago) quitting with message Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.7/20100713120425]. 15:10:55 mister2, tbh I have no idea who current tiles devs are, stick around and someone will help..probably. 15:12:10 alternatively, you could file a report on https://crawl.develz.org/mantis 15:12:26 yeah, a Br would always be appreciated, but you're not going to have an instant fix in that case. 15:13:29 i don't mind a noninstant fix, it's playable just a little annoying 15:13:36 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 15:13:40 i'll do a search and a br if i can't find anything 15:13:47 thanks for the help :D 15:14:19 sorry for the extreme indirectness of the help :) 15:14:42 no worries, if i'm that fussed about it i'll throw a debian install on here 15:14:51 i just wanted solidworks so i had to go back to windows *shudder* 15:17:36 to be honest i'm trying to find if there is a bug report for what i'm doing, and yet i'm completely confused by all the different search operators... 15:18:08 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 15:19:07 i think i'm going to just play webtiles 15:20:02 nope, lags about as much. am i just being picky or something...? it's not bad lag, it just takes a half second to move a square 15:21:10 that sounds like bad lag 15:22:48 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:23:35 k cool, i wasn't sure if i was being picky for no reason. maybe the drivers on the machine are out of date? it ran fine in linux on the same system... 15:25:33 the webtiles lag is probably network-related (you're in america, right?). no idea about the local one 15:26:26 no, i'm in canadia... the network is 300kbps+ so i don't think that's it. i'm in ffox too 15:26:32 Local should hardly ever lag, it is beefier than ascii but...yeah. 15:26:42 Hrm, I'm heading out. 15:26:45 See you guys. 15:26:46 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:29:03 mister2: I'd count canada as america (didn't say USA) ;) you could try checking the ping to tiles.crawl.develz.org, but since CDO is located in germany, some lag is to be expected 15:30:44 that's fair, i'm pretty much on the opposite side of the world from that... west coast ftw! anywho, i'm still perplexed as to why tiles lags... should i keep updating the refresh rate? oh, y'know what. does a space in front of the setting negate the setting...? or does whitespace matter in the settings file? 15:31:39 i'd expect a good amount of lag on webtiles, but local tiles should be instantaneous and shouldn't require tweaking any settings to get good performance 15:31:46 it shouldn't, but you could try 15:31:59 although it's probably a driver issue 15:32:39 (you should make sure that your graphics drivers are up to date) 15:33:00 although I'm not sure how much that really matters in windows 7 15:33:13 do you see problems on a fresh install? 15:33:24 mk, i'll check the drivers. my main point of confusion is that it was running a couple days ago on ubuntu 15:33:30 oh, yeah, this is basically completely clean 15:34:17 i can try running it in compatibility mode or something 15:35:06 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:35:45 the red thing under where the mouse is lags... -_- 15:37:03 very weird :-/ sadly i have pretty much zero windows dev experience, so i'm not sure where the problem might be 15:37:05 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:41:23 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 15:42:27 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 15:48:06 do i need some form of account to file a bug report? 15:49:09 yeah, you need to register an account 15:49:09 you do need to register to file a report. if you have a forums account I think that will work, otherwise it should just take a second to set up 15:50:13 kk setting it up now 15:51:53 uh... dcss, mantis or wiki? 15:52:23 mantis is the place for bug reports 15:53:31 greatzebu_ and a half second lag per refresh would be construed as a minor or major lag? 15:53:39 i mean bug 15:53:42 minor or major bug 15:55:03 sounds like a pretty major problem to me, but really i don't think the classification between major and minor bugs matters very much 15:55:17 kk cool 15:59:39 will i get email updates about the status of the bug? 16:00:04 Windows 7 tiles lags (playable, extremely irritating) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4849) by benraven 16:00:09 yes, any time someone updates it you should get an email 16:00:20 perfect, thanks :D 16:00:51 -!- mister2 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:01:29 no problem, hopefully it finds the right person soon 16:02:39 now he's gone :( 16:02:46 we had a lot of trouble with Windows tiles 16:02:57 coming from the fact that they don't have proper drivers by default 16:03:04 * dpeg sends rockets over Redmond 16:08:54 -!- dondy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:48 -!- elliptic_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:11:06 -!- elliptic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:17:06 -!- elliptic_ is now known as elliptic 16:24:50 -!- _co_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:37:35 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:39:53 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 16:40:50 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 16:47:41 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:51:26 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 16:52:59 -!- _co_ has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:55:23 Ctrl+G gives away branch entrance mimics (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4850) by Ragdoll 16:58:48 hmm, it seems there are a lot of mimic bugs 16:59:26 why don't do without them? rational: design principle 1 17:04:11 bhaak: that's what i favor - just make them never generate 17:06:31 -!- jle_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:15:29 Some new entries (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4851) by Saegor 17:25:50 because mimics are fun 17:26:32 bhaak is just jealous because Crawl mimics are so much better at mimicking than the Nethack wannabe mimics. 17:38:19 -!- stabwound has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:42:42 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 17:42:43 -!- stabwound has quit [Changing host] 17:42:43 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 17:50:37 -!- greatzebu_ has quit [Quit: greatzebu_] 17:54:29 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 17:58:12 03elliptic * ra1780f61d6c2 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Remove guaranteed UC skill with vampires. 18:11:44 -!- medgno has joined ##crawl-dev 18:12:17 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: n8] 18:16:53 Hey, another personal attack directed at me. I went right through my heart. 18:17:04 But wait! My silver pocket bible protected me! 18:17:18 elliptic: around? 18:17:26 yes 18:17:35 would you mind replying to Dan on the blog? 18:17:41 keep it short and friendly 18:17:52 i wonder what happens if you rename the current trunk Mi to MD 18:18:04 will peope try to make up stories for dwarves with horns? 18:18:35 chrisoelmueller: it will make everything worse 18:18:46 that sounds great 18:18:50 :) 18:19:01 We present ourselves as weaklings who give in to pressure and insults. 18:19:12 Those who defended us stand in the rain. 18:19:18 And the screamers will ask for more. 18:19:58 * dpeg is happy, an article just got accepted. 18:20:53 dpeg: hm, anything in particular you would like me to respond to? this dan person sounds sort of crazy 18:21:10 elliptic: I'd be happy if someone who is not me could state that this is sort of a group effort 18:21:15 when he made his first post I thought "hey it's danr..." and then "nope!!" 18:21:22 it's not really worth replying to stuff like that 18:21:28 I know that I pushed most vocally for Mi instead of MD... and I stand by that. 18:21:37 although certainly a more general response might be fine 18:21:40 MarvinPA: of course, but I feel not happy with it. 18:21:50 I am against deletion, of course. 18:21:56 well if i were moderator i wouldn't approve things like that in the first place :P 18:22:16 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22:19 it doesn't really have any worth 18:22:37 MarvinPA: I let everything through. Since they attack me, I won't offer anyone to say I censor their bullshit. No, it is plain to see. 18:22:44 oh by the way, can I have my status on mantis upgraded (still just "updater"). I want to post an official request for new floor tiles, I think we should get rid of floor_tomb in every place it's used except for tomb 18:22:49 sorry 18:23:16 there seem to be be a bunch of people who like to upload tiles, so it should work 18:23:23 -!- medgno has quit [Quit: Quitting] 18:23:36 You are dev on Mantis?! 18:23:47 Logged in as: evilmike (Mike - updater) 18:24:29 try again? 18:24:41 hmm. I'll try logging out and logging in 18:24:59 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:25:04 nope, still updater 18:25:14 i don't see anything wrong with active moderation really, obviously it's more difficult when you're the one doing the approval yourself though, yeah 18:25:33 evilmike Mike evilmike@gmail.com developer X 2010-05-10 10:23 2011-11-03 00:25 18:26:09 evilmike: this is from Mantis "Manage User" menu 18:26:16 weird 18:26:28 perhaps Mantis follows a good god? 18:26:54 usually they give a message about rejecting you 18:26:59 I do have "DEVELOPER" on the wiki 18:27:31 jackalknight: "I'll only make peace once dpeg is gone." 18:27:40 evilmike: sorry, no idea what to do 18:27:44 except for: 18:27:51 maybe I should ask napkin? 18:27:55 wait 18:28:14 !tell Napkin evilmike is "developer" on Mantis -- but is not allowed to do developery actions. Can you have a look? 18:28:14 dpeg: OK, I'll let Napkin know. 18:28:45 developery actions 18:29:09 I'm not listed anywhere on here either, but I'm not sure that has anything to do with it: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/summary_page.php 18:29:33 evilmike: no, don't think so 18:29:39 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 18:30:14 evilmike: changed your setting, do you see anything? 18:31:06 still "updater" 18:31:23 heck 18:31:45 we will get this sorted out, just not now 18:31:48 well, there's no urgency. 18:32:27 on the other hand, my wiki status changed... 18:32:34 progress! 18:32:39 Logged in as: evilmike (MANAGER) 18:32:44 it used to say (DEVELOPER) 18:32:57 I'm not sure what the technical difference is, the previous one was probably more correct 18:34:09 yes, I changed that just now :) 18:34:10 03MarvinPA * r40c838fa1e85 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Let Inner Flame place clouds on the exploded monster's square too 18:34:10 03MarvinPA * re38440aea933 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-miscast.cc: Don't paralyse the player when a monster on the other side of the level hits a Zot trap 18:34:52 back to dev, evilmike 18:36:07 I see, none of you wants to reply, so I'll do it =) 18:36:39 reply to what? 18:36:44 dpeg: I'm working on a longer and more general reply 18:36:44 blog blurb 18:36:48 elliptic: ah, you rock 18:37:46 I always have defended the open approach over the NH madness. But I can definitely see now how they ended up in their tower. 18:38:04 at this point it's pretty much down to a small number of utter crazies as far as i can tell 18:38:22 which all claim to vanish with MD removed but still stay 18:38:24 I didn't read everything in detail 18:38:28 so they can continue flaming 18:38:42 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 18:38:42 chrisoelmueller: yes, they say "I quit" but cannot bring themselves to do it properly. 18:38:49 i can see why you wouldn't want to not approve the comments but i think moderation is a pretty reasonable thing to do 18:39:13 I'd do if another dev was involved, I think. 18:39:29 Hey, now playing: Magrudergrind: "I'm fucking done" :) 18:39:49 easier to do on the tavern though where some of the moderators are members of the community rather than devs though, since they seem more impartial i imagine :P 18:39:57 yes 18:40:17 but then galehar pulled out the big lock (cannot blame him, was a reasonable thing to do) 18:40:42 i saw that lucy_ferre stepped in and helped out too in terms of moderating individual posts, both seemed sensible responses 18:40:58 MarvinPA: on tavern? 18:41:22 yeah 18:41:47 * dpeg is happy he could mostly keep control. It is so easy to troll in a sophisticated manner, and I am not immune to the temptation. 18:41:51 zeidrich the Chopper (L10 HOSk) (D:9) 18:42:07 I don't think those people are trolling really. To me, there's a difference between trolling and being an ass 18:42:44 that may be -- I have little experience with that 18:42:50 but I am pretty sure that I can troll :) 18:43:07 or be an ass, whatever is needed 18:43:46 avoiding both is probably best, if somewhat understandbly difficult :P 18:44:33 I had to look up what "Asperger" is -- you even learn from them! 18:44:57 elliptic is already responding, but I don't mind stepping in and trying to calm things down if something like this happens again 18:45:02 mm, i'd not heard that used as an insult before 18:45:06 ever so delightful 18:45:27 I do that somewhat often on the SA forums, usually works well 18:46:20 evilmike: Good. I've also seen syllogism, Mu and others do that. 18:48:47 i find myself looking at grimm's comic over and over 18:49:25 I like it 18:49:28 alefury: yes, it was really moved. Even showed it to a colleague (who has Crawl experience) 18:49:32 I was moved 18:49:40 Who is the guy I give the money to? 18:49:50 that's a minotaur :P 18:49:55 ah :) 18:50:20 for some reason all of the giants (and minotaurs, and a few others probably) have thick crossed arms, like they are nightclub bouncers 18:50:22 also, he gives you money :) 18:51:46 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 18:52:34 hehe, I completely missed the joke, it seems -- no biggie, I'm the German 18:59:31 -!- greatzebu has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:59:35 !tell kilobyte I've played some caster games, and I think Nausea is okay for now. Didn't hit starving, so I cannot really comment on your question in the commit. Let's go with it for a bit. 18:59:37 dpeg: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 19:00:23 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 19:02:12 !tell dpeg Anything you want 19:02:12 FFLaguna: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 19:03:16 FFLaguna: what is up? 19:03:17 dpeg: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 19:03:35 Testing a command. I'm new here ;) 19:03:42 Crazy Yiuf whimpers, "Tonal high pontify!" 19:04:07 Has anyone observed problems with autoexplore not stopping for monsters? My current game did not stop for Yiuf. 19:04:11 FFLaguna: Welcome 19:05:04 -!- greatzebu has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:08:29 dpeg: what was the rationale behind nausea kilobyte is refering to? 19:11:21 Edmund says, "Everyone always remembers my brother. 'Who's Edmund?' they ask!" 19:11:44 jeanjacques: you want to know why contaminated chunks give Nausea rather than Sick? 19:12:00 people potentialy dying because of it, despite having perma food? That would be a huge disincentive to eat anything contaminated while around very hungry or so 19:12:21 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:12:25 <|amethyst> jeanjacques: you can eat (for half nutrition) if you are nauseated and starving 19:12:30 i know 19:13:15 jeanjacques: 1. More convenience: with Sick, you have to rest it off in order to gain HP. With Nausea, you rest up HP and walk your way. 2. More decisions: with Sick, you'd eat it over permafood unless extreme cases (fruit to save turn etc.) With Nausea, you don't. 19:14:04 also, you can cure Nausea with a potion 19:14:17 nausea seems a lot less intrusive in my games so far 19:14:20 than sick was, that is 19:14:30 MarvinPA: yes, I really hated the Sick 5 mashing 19:14:31 fair enough, i like it a lot better than sickness too 19:14:48 jeanjacques: if someone starves from being too stingy with permafood, so be it. 19:15:02 * dpeg wonders how many pages elliptic's treatise will have. 19:15:03 i am stupidly obsessed about turncounts though 19:15:14 dpeg: it isn't that huge, I'm just slow :) 19:15:58 jeanjacques: The proposal (I think it was put forward by galehar) is not so much about saving turns but keystrokes, imo. 19:16:55 jeanjacques: oh, and disincentive to eat chunks under certain conditions? Yes! 19:17:57 personally, I like nausea a lot more than sickness 19:18:23 good to know 19:18:42 We can tweak the parameters (duration, chance, behaviour when starving), of course. 19:19:17 I like nausea too, though we still need to decide on a better color for it - any suggestions? 19:19:41 Grey and darkgrey? 19:19:54 white and dark white 19:20:00 I thought it's brown now 19:20:11 brown is good, since the chunks are brown 19:20:32 it's yellow normally, brown when expiring i think 19:20:37 oh, right 19:21:23 if it's brown, flush it down 19:23:06 still yellow, just testing 19:23:18 so first colour brown, then grey? 19:24:30 brown -> grey sounds good 19:25:06 or even brown -> brown 19:26:00 ? 19:26:11 I like the indication that it is going to go away soon. 19:26:47 I'm not sure that indication is very useful really, since nausea usually isn't tactically relevant 19:27:18 i probably wouldn't mind just the one colour, yeah 19:27:27 I'm not opposed to it if brown -> grey or something like that works well, though 19:27:36 since knowing it's about to expire won't really change your behaviour like an expiring buff might 19:27:55 don't mind either way though, yeah 19:28:23 yes, it is just convenience 19:35:48 -!- heteroy has joined ##crawl-dev 19:36:24 heteroy: ever been here before? 19:36:29 no 19:36:56 i'm playing with serial .des files. 19:37:40 trying to figure out how to place them so I can test how they look/work 19:38:30 heteroy: awesome. Just do PLACE: D:1 19:38:55 does place replace depth? 19:38:58 heteroy: what theme? 19:39:03 heteroy: yes. 19:39:25 a village/ collection of huts in swamp eventually 19:39:33 hah, I tried that 19:39:53 it's a good theme, I think 19:40:24 There could be even non-aborted huts, I guess? Witch. Shop. Trapper. Animal keeper. 19:40:40 I put some of the leftovers of it on this page, if you want some extra stuff: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=user:evilmike 19:44:23 evilmike: did you look at the portal vault wiki page for inspirations? 19:44:33 I think we could have more portal vaults, just need themes. 19:44:46 nope, wasn't aware of that page. going to take a look 19:45:05 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:vault:portal_vaults 19:45:28 If you want to find something on the wiki, always use the Search box. 19:45:34 -!- ainsophyao has quit [*.net *.split] 19:45:47 yeah, that's what I do. 19:46:15 hmm, I don't see any early game portal vault ideas here. I recall jordan7hm was working on a colusseum, but he got stuck (couldn't do it all in lua, from what I understand) 19:46:35 I just read borsuk's idea that portal vault items should be annotated. Can we set annotations in des syntax? 19:47:23 evilmike: hm, true. Let's cobble something up then. 19:47:45 dpeg: I don't think that's possible but that's just from searching the documentation 19:47:46 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:47:59 some sort of minizig could be cool 19:48:14 I don't know whether this is what the colosseum was about 19:48:20 that's sort of what 7hm was working on. I haven't heard from him in a while though 19:48:47 dpeg: left comment in blog... I probably forgot something I meant to say 19:48:52 elliptic: nice text, gotta approve it :) 19:49:25 Who best to ask on this? due? 19:49:46 I'm going to go get something to eat, will be back later 19:49:47 due is the lua expert 19:50:27 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:51:02 !tell due There is this idea to autoinscrible loot from portal vaults like so: white potion {ossuary}. Can we do this with lua? (Not sure whether lua or additional des syntax code is better for this.) 19:51:02 dpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 19:52:58 elliptic: many thanks. It won't stop the insulters (only that they can now also target you :) but I feel much better. 19:54:48 still can't get the vaults to appear :( 19:55:42 can you pastebin your code? 19:58:14 hmm. i dan't place iton a level in wizmode either. 19:58:19 are those arrows on cerebovs rune just random or did someone try to make apportation harder? 19:58:58 heteroy: did you recycle the lines from another serial vault? 19:59:23 heteroy: you can also use DEPTH: D:2 with a really high CHANCE 19:59:44 yes. but i changed all of the tags, names, depths... 20:00:30 the vault's map is just 8 doors surrounding water at the moment 20:01:28 can you upload it in some form? Or paste here? 20:01:33 http://pastebin.com/9ZbW7GC1 20:03:16 heteroy: replace the + with . and test once more, please 20:03:45 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 20:05:00 not seeing any 20:05:24 ok, I'll give it a go 20:05:50 i try to create it with wizmode. "Can't find map..." 20:06:41 I just got it :) 20:06:45 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:06:47 D:1 is full of little silly vaults. 20:06:55 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:07:16 is there a way that i have to incorporate new files that I'm not familiar with? 20:07:21 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 20:07:33 heteroy: I copied your file into serial/swampy.des and it worked just fine. 20:07:48 heteroy: no, you just have to run Crawl anew. 20:09:33 i closed it, reopen it...i've checked the filename... 20:09:50 strange 20:10:27 No idea what's going on, since it works here. 20:10:43 something with file permissions maybe? 20:11:58 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 20:12:00 jeanjacques: as far as I know there are no maps that place items on top of the rune, but it could happen randomly 20:12:22 no idea what it could be 20:13:11 heteroy: if you modify an existing serial vault, do you see the changes? 20:13:11 I've had items on top of the orb 20:13:37 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:13:49 heteroy: if creating a new des file isn't working, you can always just paste your stuff into an existing one that is known to work 20:14:53 i've had issues like this before... couldn't get new des files to be recognized without recompiling 20:15:27 my changes to other serial files are taking effect. just no new files i guess 20:18:36 works when I replaced the code from gnoll_camp/ 20:18:45 heteroy: just do this then 20:19:20 encoding problem ? 20:32:12 03evilmike * r64a885850f7a 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/hells.des: Fix the border in coc_mu. 20:36:56 -!- medgno has joined ##crawl-dev 20:37:12 -!- alefury has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:42:11 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:42:13 -!- MarvinPA__ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:42:26 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:42:33 -!- MarvinPA__ has quit [Client Quit] 20:51:20 -!- greatzebu has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:51:54 -!- Brannock has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:52:01 -!- medgno has quit [Quit: Quitting] 20:52:08 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 20:59:44 nogglebeak the Ducker (L4 KeSt) ASSERT(!you.turn_is_over) in 'state.cc' at line 173 failed on turn 1740. (D:2) 21:08:07 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 21:22:12 03evilmike * rf21c2124a786 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-pick.cc: Add balrugs to gehenna, blizzard demons to cocytus. 21:22:39 -!- greatzebu has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:23:44 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:26:28 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 21:31:15 !tell Cryp71c the @ screen is crashing 21:31:16 SamB: OK, I'll let Cryp71c know. 21:31:48 * SamB may use this to cheat 21:38:31 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 21:39:05 Evening 21:39:06 Cryp71c: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 21:39:08 !messages 21:39:08 (1/1) SamB said (7m 53s ago): the @ screen is crashing 21:40:03 SamB, I'll look at the @ screen, thanks. After you made your commit, you don't have any issue building? 21:40:21 Cryp71c: you do? 21:40:49 SamB, yeah, but my netbook is too slow to do a make clean all the time, so I avoided it...running a completely fresh make atm. 21:41:16 too ... slow ? compared to my 450 MHz PII ? 21:42:11 SamB, good lord...too slow compared to any other system I could bear to work on. 21:42:19 heh 21:42:32 I might die if I were on anything slower than this 1.6 ghz Atom 21:42:46 Looks like it made it past where it was crashing before (command.cc) 21:42:59 well, it's running Linux, so it's not *too* bad 21:43:26 SamB, I'm on a debian distro, its still "bad" :P 21:43:45 I mean, opening a file and starting a process are nice and quick 21:43:51 Compared to my Core I7 desktop...mmmm "make debug -j 8" 21:44:31 so are you using ccache? 21:44:44 it makes my PII much more bearable 21:44:59 SamB, nope 21:45:15 Someone had mentioned it to me though at some point like 6 months ago, it sounds vaguely familiar :P 21:45:56 * SamB wonders if instructions for this should be added to the README 21:46:08 gogo gadget aptitude! 21:46:15 or do I mean the INSTALL file 21:46:45 Cryp71c: kilobyte says he can't stand it because of the dependancy resolver being so dumb lately 21:47:17 SamB, hrm, I don't tend to have many issues with it, but I also don't really do much on my netbook except code, so I rarely install stuff. 21:47:35 well, it *does* have this annoying tendancy to want to remove stuff 21:47:40 SamB, do you do anything special to use ccache? 21:47:54 SamB, I've seen that before, not too frequently, but on occasion. 21:48:01 Cryp71c: look at README.Debian 21:48:27 sometimes it even wants to remove the very thing it was asked to upgrade! 21:48:58 SamB, are you talking about crawl w/ the README ? or just debian in general? 21:50:06 our INSTALL.txt is where I was pondering adding instructions for the use of ccache 21:50:36 right 21:50:42 is there a vault character key somewhere? 21:50:51 heteroy: syntax.txt 21:50:55 iirc 21:51:01 in docs/develop/levels 21:51:38 syntax.txt, to be specific 21:51:49 evilmike: I said that! 21:51:53 SamB, WRT ccache, "ccache make debug PCH=y -j 2" ? 21:51:58 oh yeah, you did 21:52:01 Cryp71c: no 21:52:03 ooh thanks 21:53:33 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:53:37 README.Debian suggests this: 21:53:38 export PATH="/usr/lib/ccache:$PATH" 21:54:13 I do something more like this: 21:54:14 make -k GCC="ccache gcc" GXX="ccache g++" 21:54:37 oh...are you talking about a readme that ships with ccache.. 21:54:43 was wondering what context you were talking about :P 21:54:55 I was talking about too many things ;-) 21:55:10 sorry 21:55:40 (I also have a bunch of other flags I pass to make, but they're not relevant here.) 21:56:04 SamB, I can still pass the PCH, debug and -j flags as usual? 21:56:09 yes, yes 21:56:14 can and should 21:56:48 What compiler does GXX refer to? it appears I don't have it. 21:57:06 you don't have g++ ? 21:57:13 how have you been compiling? 21:57:20 ohwait, maybe I typed it incorrectly 21:57:22 anyway, try it their way 21:57:40 I only do it differently because I have so little disk space to spare 21:57:54 ... just you might want to tell ccache to use more, then 21:58:01 if you ever compile anything besides crawl 21:58:06 (I don't) 21:58:14 I sometimes do 21:58:26 So if I export ccache into the path, what will that change? 21:59:04 that will cause the symlinks that the ccache package installs into that directory to shadow the actual compilers 21:59:15 so that it can do its magic 21:59:26 you can read about said magic in the ccache(1) manpage 22:01:00 Hrm, cool...well I'm off for the night 22:01:08 I'll be back tomorrow! I'll look at @ 22:01:09 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:11:31 -!- stabwound has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:15:22 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 22:15:32 -!- stabwound has quit [Changing host] 22:15:32 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 22:15:33 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 22:20:24 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 22:23:15 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:23:44 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 22:37:10 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 22:56:10 03elliptic * r830e565e1952 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Remove special case for message for raising a skill to 1. 23:08:07 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 23:08:21 hi 23:13:48 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 23:16:29 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:17:39 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:27:34 Crash when changing terminal size while crawl is running (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4852) by Dethread 23:32:28 -!- stabwound has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:35:54 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 23:35:55 -!- stabwound has quit [Changing host] 23:35:55 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 23:39:13 Moose the Sneak (L4 DEIE) ASSERT(!you.turn_is_over) in 'state.cc' at line 173 failed on turn 3303. 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