00:00:21 anyway, it was a thought, and it's been shot down 00:00:44 but, yes, if we want cleaner armour slots then animal skins/robes should be looked at as well as caps/wizard hats 00:00:56 <|amethyst> phyphor: there seems to be some support for two levels, just not three 00:01:06 yeah, look at it that way :) 00:01:15 <|amethyst> hard/soft as Keskitalo said 00:01:23 |amethyst: that's fine with me, but I've seen other ideas be pushed to 3 to fit the style of crawl 00:01:26 all the cosmetic helmets should be killed 00:01:30 and its crazy 3/9 stuff 00:01:40 <|amethyst> it's the minbari 00:01:40 armour is a no-brainer, remove it 00:02:08 visored helmets even have a miniscule gameplay effect nethaaaaack 00:02:18 they do? 00:02:27 they block vampires from biting iirc 00:02:32 <|amethyst> So... there seems to be justification for only cursed gloves blocking unequipped ring training... what about shields and 2h weapons? 00:03:15 <|amethyst> shields are also considered unswappable, so are there any reasons an uncursed shield shouldn't block 2h weapon training? 00:04:24 keskitalo: the many helmet types really bother me 00:04:35 its kind of cool when you find a golden helmet... 00:04:40 even the purely cosmetic ones, but especially the ones with a minor gameplay effect 00:05:29 |amethyst: that would make sense, yes... though it would just mean that people would go find a junk 1-handed weapon of that type to carry around to train that skill 00:06:26 that sounds like a reason 00:06:55 well, that is more a reason for removing swappability/cursedness from the requirements 00:07:14 <|amethyst> if they wanted to train both shields and that skill, wouldn't they want a 1H weapon anyway? 00:07:24 they might well not be using a shield 00:07:28 er, training a shield 00:07:56 for instance, they might be a low-level char with a shield + one-hander who finds a great two-hander 00:08:07 and wants to train up skill a bit before switching 00:08:20 <|amethyst> yeah, makes sense 00:11:02 <|amethyst> hm 00:11:28 <|amethyst> but isn't that parallel to the case of a low-level caster finding a buckler and wanting to train Shields before wearing it? 00:12:39 not really 00:12:54 I mean, both are situations where a character wants to train up a skill before using it 00:13:11 but with the shield, we are currently requiring that the character actually be wearing the shield 00:13:28 whereas for the weapon, we are just requiring that the character carry around a junk weapon 00:13:29 but, this won't require them to use something with which they have no skill 00:13:46 (wearing a shield, that is) 00:14:03 I'm not certain about requiring wearing a shield or wearing armour with positive EVP, honestly 00:14:34 we might be better off without any restrictions other than "are carrying an item of the given type" 00:15:15 the main purpose of the restrictions was not to restrict players, but rather to restrict what skills are visible on the skill screen to only show the usable ones 00:15:43 <|amethyst> really? 00:16:19 yes 00:16:30 <|amethyst> because if I have a level in something but it's not currently trainable, it shows up on the screen but I can't turn it on 00:16:49 <|amethyst> and if I hit * I can't turn it on either 00:16:52 right, I meant to restrict which 0.0 skills are visible 00:17:18 and they are actual restrictions, sure... but they weren't meant to impact gameplay much if at all 00:17:48 they were introduced when we decided that being able to train skills starting from 0.0 without victory dancing would be a good thing 00:18:00 as a player it's frustrating to have to remember to turn off evo, say, as soon as I pick up a wand 00:18:20 phyphor: if you use manual mode, it will be turned off by default 00:18:35 and if you use automatic mode, it won't train unless you are using the wand anyway 00:18:47 elliptic: as soon as I pick up a wand it goes + evo 0.0 00:19:02 you are in auto mode, no? 00:19:07 so I have to remember to turn it off before I start using it to not, say, detract from unarmed or whatever 00:19:39 elliptic: yes 00:20:28 this is intended behavior in auto mode, since auto mode is supposed to be playable without ever touching the skill screen 00:20:38 ah, fair enough 00:20:40 so skills had better default to on :) 00:20:47 good point, well made 00:20:50 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:26:50 -!- Danei has joined ##crawl-dev 00:55:14 -!- ixtli_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:55:59 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:56:00 -!- ixtli_ is now known as ixtli 00:56:05 03|amethyst 07refs/merge-requests/18 * r55352241eb31 10/crawl-ref/source/itemprop.cc: Allow cursed items to block training other slots. 00:56:33 <|amethyst> that's weird 00:57:04 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:20 <|amethyst> creating a merge request doesn't trigger CIA, but changing one does 00:57:43 <|amethyst> ah, I guess CIA cares about commits but not about creation of branches 00:59:24 <|amethyst> I didn't want to rip out the swappability/cursedness stuff myself, but I won't be offended if someone else does and my MR is made obsolete 01:03:18 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1614-gaacbd52 (32) 01:12:23 -!- chukamok has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330]] 01:18:44 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1614-gaacbd52 01:22:59 <|amethyst> Would cursed mundane be acceptible for the Ashenzari altar (#4833), or should there be a chance of an ego? 01:24:36 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:27:33 <|amethyst> hm, looks like the latter is somewhat difficult, since mundane overrides level:foo, and cursed overrides the pluses from level:foo 01:29:25 <|amethyst> and there's the chance of holy wrath 01:37:09 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 01:42:47 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:47:00 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 01:47:17 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:49:53 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:58:08 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 02:04:18 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:11:56 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:16:35 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:28:08 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 02:48:05 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 02:52:13 -!- phill has joined ##crawl-dev 02:57:53 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:04:01 goood eve 04:10:40 Aw, they hate us! how cute. 04:12:04 uncontrolled, murderous rage? 04:13:19 No, apparently we've lost the plot and are no longer worthy to carry the DCSS brand names. 04:35:10 what 04:35:17 who saud that 04:35:23 said* 04:37:02 what? i though DCSS was always PWP 04:37:31 I see DCSS as DvP. 04:51:10 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 04:53:47 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:53:48 Ah, looks like the borderless tiles thing hit 0.9. Spectating webitles is a nice pasttime at work.. 04:55:26 I was thinking that shadows in tiles could be done with %back. 04:55:53 Then we could add a flight/levitation animation to the monster tiles themselves, while keeping the shadow in place. (: 04:59:12 Spectating webitles is a nice pasttime at work.. 04:59:15 oooh, naughty. 04:59:31 spectating roguelikes at work always reminds me of that nethack comic strip 04:59:59 trying to pass off an ascension run as esoteric unix administration 05:00:34 spectating the console version might be "safer" =) 05:01:23 I dont think so 05:01:25 actually 05:01:37 crawl is colorful enough to not look like a simple terminal window 05:01:52 "well this is a visualized simulation of umm ah humm.." 05:01:54 uncolored nethack with black background fits the bill better 05:02:04 hahaha visualized unix admin! 05:02:59 unix is 3d though 05:03:05 havent you ever seen jurassic park 05:03:33 too busy hacking the gibson 05:15:14 evilmike, unix is 3d? 05:18:45 Zaba: this scene http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFUlAQZB9Ng 05:18:45 it has some weird 3d thing 05:20:12 oh, haha 05:21:49 Reading the MD/Mi thread in Tavern (plus wiki updates), I like what File200 did - asked "how do I tweak stuff", then took the code and just started tweaking stuff. 05:24:48 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 05:28:07 It looks like webtile players don't notice or just ignore incoming messages. Well, the few I've spectated. 05:28:44 well, the little window starts off closed 05:28:48 some people like to talk though 05:34:36 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 05:42:38 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The professional IRC Client :D] 05:45:56 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 05:47:22 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:48:57 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 05:51:09 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:05 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1594-gb76dd12 06:00:07 Zaba: ther'es a link to a reddit thread somewhere 06:03:41 Ahhh, *I* need to open the message box to see the messages. dohhhhh! 06:07:58 ah yes, my lastlog has it 06:15:08 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 06:15:54 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 06:16:14 Generating blood spatter dynamically per hit shouldn't be too hard.. 06:16:40 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:16:43 Could take direction etc into account for that extra yuck factor. 06:16:58 Keskitalo: bloody tiles? 06:17:10 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 06:17:23 Yeah, in tiles I mean. 06:19:00 A blog commenter just revealed that I've got Asperger's. 06:19:03 * dpeg feels exposed. 06:20:39 dpeg: we've lost the plot! We're rampant! 06:21:18 dpeg: (On a more serious note, I have OCD and I would be seriously surprised if there are less then a dozed good coders iin the world who don't have some minor quirk) 06:21:22 Also, every morning we're checking what is the most popular feature so that we can remove it before the sun has set. 06:21:58 due: hey, I am a mathematician, I know funny folks :) 06:22:27 Not a problem really, they're just writing so many silly things at once. Guess we gotta be grateful for players motivated that much. 06:22:31 dpeg: I considered it this way: how many of these people would complain if we simpled renamed minotaurs? 06:23:00 Er, removed minotaurs, not renamed. 06:24:27 oh, fewer 06:24:39 Exactly. 06:24:42 There is no Minotaur Fortress game on Bay12, for example 06:24:50 but still plenty i would imagine, there's a nice wide range of irrational complaints to go around :P 06:24:57 hehe, yes 06:25:12 MarvinPA: But the main complaint about removing mountain dwarfs has nothing to do with the character or play style and everything to do with the imagee. 06:25:27 They're complaining that we changed the brand name and the colour of the bike shed without consulting. ;) 06:25:30 but certainly it seems the biggest one is just the dwarfy dwarfness of dwarves, yeah :P 06:25:35 But I don't think that's the proper way to do design. For non-commcerical games at least. If money is at the stake, I'd be a lot more careful about possible reactions, which would be a shame :) 06:25:38 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:26:31 There wasn't an uproar in the Bay12 Forums Crawl thread. :( 06:26:47 You see, dtsund was motivated enough by DCSS nerfs to come up with an easier fork. We'll see if the complainers manage to come up with a dwarf fork. 06:28:03 Keskitalo: did you follow the reddit link? 06:28:04 dpeg: "Come up with" is not problematic. 06:28:04 Keskitalo: ofc, they know where to get their generic dwarf dose 06:28:04 dpeg: Oh yessss, it was goooooooooood. 06:28:04 dpeg: "Maintain continuously without being sucky" is another thing entirely. 06:28:04 yes 06:28:26 i like the comment about playable rats instead of the generic humans :) 06:28:51 Keskitalo: it depends. And I've got to admit, it does hurt. (Of course, the way I am wired, all the garbage thrown at me makes me adamant about the change.) 06:29:25 Yeah well, I didn't participate in dicsussions or anything, so I just make popcorn and enjoy. 06:29:26 dpeg: You missed my earlier rant :) 06:29:42 due: here? 06:29:48 No, in my head ;) 06:30:04 After reading the reddit post I felt a little ill, and then got a little angry, and then went "oh fuck them". 06:30:32 * dpeg can now imagine how Brent Ross must have felt. 06:30:40 I think there's some brave soul in every thread etc who stands up and voices approval for the development in general or the change in particular. 06:31:05 Keskitalo: yes. In the reddit thread, he got accused of being an undercover dev! 06:31:09 there's some degree of common sense in all of the discussions i've seen so far, yeah 06:31:10 yes, that was AWESOME! 06:31:11 oh haha yeah 06:31:22 Haha, yes, that was amusing. 06:31:42 MarvinPA: yes. Also, the forum reactions were entirely civilised until the SA floodgates opened. 06:40:48 That's always the case, though. 06:47:02 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:48:48 i dont know why anyone is even still reading that tavern thread 06:49:07 i guess file200's comments are worth reading 06:49:21 but tehdruid just makes me so mad. so so very mad. 06:50:17 did people get mad at 4.1a changes? 06:50:25 st_: people just get mad. at everything. 06:50:27 I already said I love how File200 (1) asked how to tweak stuff and (2) started tweaking stuff. 06:54:15 I always try to support the one who actually comes up with ideas. File200, for example. 06:54:58 Did anyone tell file200 to get his ass in this channel? 06:55:07 no, probably not 06:55:11 ghallberg: would you? 06:55:18 The Forge Dwarf idea seems to fill the one actual gap that I'm somewhat convinced that was left by removal of MD, that is specialist heavy armour staff EE/FE build. 06:55:31 dpeg: I'm not even sure I have a tavern account... 06:55:45 its shared with mantis 06:55:50 Ok, cool. 06:55:58 i think the golem proposal could fit that niche quite nicely too incidentally, as dpeg mentioned :P 06:56:09 (which is a great idea, because it also means everyone on tavern can report bugs) 06:56:11 Yess, that's true, I thought so too. 06:56:18 alefury: Ha, true. 06:56:37 Did the golems also get the "low spellcasting, high school aptitudes" thing? 06:56:43 golem has enough other unique stuff imo 06:56:48 also it doesnt work so well with hungerlessness 06:56:59 ahh, damn hungerless casting 06:57:05 all comments are valid, just need someone to sort it out (and make a decision) 06:57:05 i admit im not fully up to date on the various golem food ideas 06:57:06 not in my current version of them, i think hill orcs sort of do that anyway 06:57:33 but yeah, the way in which they hunger is the big thing to decide on 06:58:08 dpeg: did you have a preference for eating stones over eating magical items? 06:58:17 But I think it'd "save space" to put the aptitude thing on some existing/other upcoming species.. 06:59:15 the two implementations in the patches are 1) eat magical items for satiation, healing rate reduces at low satiation 06:59:18 i think other species having a lot of aptitude overlap with golems would be fine 06:59:24 and 2) no natural healing at all, eat stones for healing 06:59:41 like for DD, who is differentiated by no healing 06:59:49 let's rename mummies to dwarf mummies 06:59:53 to appease the throngs 06:59:58 MOUNTAIN Dwarf Mummies 07:00:01 If I just make a post on the thread to invit file200 here everyone else will probably see it and jump in... 07:00:16 ghallberg: you could PM him, I guess 07:00:19 Keskitalo: of course 07:00:23 well it's not like the channel is a secret :P 07:00:24 ais523: I'm tring :S 07:00:28 MarvinPA: Nah. 07:00:37 MarvinPA: yes, but only a mild one, don't put much attention to it. I think that stones are a little better because: (a) available from the start, (b) no special cases/code required. 07:00:41 * due gone. 07:00:43 who is file200? 07:00:51 i think i agree that stones are better for a food source, yeah 07:00:59 much less complexity 07:01:11 Zaba: a tavern person who is trying out a species idea for factory dwarves (see wiki) 07:01:23 ah 07:01:54 i might try out a combination of the two, with stones as the food source, anyway 07:02:18 I dunno what to say in the thread... 07:02:21 MarvinPA: regarding whether golem food should give healing or magic, either way is possible. 07:02:32 and if i get anything that seems worthwhile i'll see if i can figure out how to push it to a remote branch 07:02:42 non-regenerating MP would be pretty cool IMO 07:02:58 "Anyone who's interested in discussing their ideas with the dev team can join us in ##crawl-dev on freenode"? 07:03:01 but only works well on a spell-affine species 07:03:56 yes, if we get HP (or MP) from an item, then HP (or MP) should not regenerate naturally 07:03:57 Can I even PM people on the forum? 07:04:11 ghallberg: better to address File200 specifically: "If you like to discuss your species ideas with some dev members, go to ..." 07:04:16 ghallberg: yes! 07:04:45 MarvinPA: actually, eating for MP might be better, giving hungerless casting. 07:05:08 Heh, nice. 07:05:22 hmm ok, i'll try a few different things later 07:05:25 It re-introduces a kind of food cost for spellcasting, but it is different to ordinary species, of tactical importance (MP) rather than strategical (starving). 07:05:31 dpeg: I honestly don't understand how to PM... 07:05:58 ghallberg: put mouse over user name 07:06:09 if you go to someone's profile page there should be a link to "send private message" 07:06:31 MarvinPA: I can't find that link I've been staring at the profile page for 10 minutes 07:07:04 ghallberg: go to thread, find a post by File200, hoover mouse pointer of "File200" on the left column 07:07:20 hm, i guess they might have pms disabled 07:07:39 ah, right! 07:07:43 -!- alefury has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:07:50 sorry then 07:08:05 oh nope, i can see the link :P 07:08:10 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/ucp.php?i=pm&mode=compose&u=1001 07:08:11 try that 07:08:24 We are sorry, but you are not authorised to use this feature. 07:08:33 Maybe I need to post more or somethign :D 07:09:54 :o 07:10:09 -!- jarpiain has joined ##crawl-dev 07:14:47 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:16:00 -!- chrisoel- has joined ##crawl-dev 07:16:47 -!- elly_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:17:42 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 07:22:23 -!- ussdefiant has quit [*.net *.split] 07:22:23 -!- elly has quit [*.net *.split] 07:22:24 -!- paxed has quit [*.net *.split] 07:22:24 -!- Chousuke has quit [*.net *.split] 07:22:24 -!- chrisoelmueller has quit [*.net *.split] 07:26:01 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 07:26:01 -!- Chousuke has joined ##crawl-dev 07:28:03 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 07:30:42 ghallberg: are you sure you are logged in? 07:32:18 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:38:09 alefury: Yup 07:41:57 -!- syllogism- has joined ##crawl-dev 07:43:27 -!- syllogism has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:50:41 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 07:55:10 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:55:28 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:00:00 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:00:27 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:18:10 beh, so no one ever compiles in non-debug mode? 08:18:11 kilobyte: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 08:18:12 ouch.cc:187:51: warning: ‘resist’ may be used uninitialized in this function 08:18:29 this is not a spurious one 08:18:37 kilobyte: only wizmode compilations for me 08:20:16 yeah, me too most of the time 08:20:57 this particular warning means Sting and Venom Bolt have undefined effect depending on what happens to be in the memory at that spot 08:24:44 ouch 08:26:40 hmm, not that bad, for these two spells, doEffects will always be true outside of tracers 08:26:50 plus poison spit 08:28:47 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 08:32:39 on the other hand, the logic for resists was reversed 08:33:01 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 08:34:46 03kilobyte * rbc61b047875b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (random.cc random.h spl-damage.cc spl-wpnench.cc xom.cc): Use templates for random_choose() to eliminate the need for multiple definitions. 08:34:46 03kilobyte * rc56cb9b32b1f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-cast.cc random.cc random.h): Simplify use of random_choose() by using overloading. 08:34:46 03kilobyte * rb73196b72f80 10/crawl-ref/source/ (9 files): Use proper type declarations for brand_type. 08:34:47 03kilobyte * r8a8e775baf81 10/crawl-ref/source/ (22 files): Remove no longer necessary casts after random_choose(). 08:34:47 03kilobyte * rdda850b75fa8 10/crawl-ref/source/ouch.cc: Fix poison beams doing more damage when rPois, fix tracers. 08:37:18 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:37:36 An interesting proposal for DD on tarvern. 08:38:12 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:38:39 (replace /HW by /Regeneration) 08:40:45 hmm 08:41:01 that does seem like it might have some potential, yeah 08:41:03 <|amethyst> how do you explain =regen not working but /regen working? 08:41:23 |amethyst: gameplay: permanent effect vs charges. 08:41:35 -!- elly_ is now known as elly 08:41:39 <|amethyst> I mean, in-game 08:42:31 <|amethyst> Perhaps if the wand has a different name 08:42:37 yes 08:42:53 and it should, because it only provides a temporary effect 08:46:14 just comment in the thread, I did too :) 08:53:12 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:54:35 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 08:56:01 dpeg: wand of repair! 08:58:24 for example :) 09:01:11 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:01:16 Morning 09:03:21 Hi! 09:06:38 Auto-inscription for items left by uniques (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4841) by dpeg 09:07:51 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:08:31 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:09:22 Eronarn: Regrowth? 09:09:49 The Regeneration spell doesn't work for DD though. 09:10:23 because it is a wand, it could in fact increase both HP and MP for a while 09:10:42 "wand of power outlet" 09:10:56 also, gotta leave, later! 09:10:59 Would these also be random drops? 09:11:05 sure 09:13:25 -!- chrisoel- is now known as chrisoelmueller 09:14:35 dpeg: Ce having Fastmeta 1 Herbi 1 would, within the new rules, make their hunger 5.33 rather than 5. 09:14:49 is this still a good idea? 09:18:27 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:18:53 |amethyst: how do you explain Hand of Trog working? 09:19:17 gods get to cheat 09:19:29 Trog does ATTR_DIVINE_REGENERATION rather than regular one 09:19:31 yeah, I guess that's actually what I'd figured 09:20:21 so thematically yeah, it's special divine healing rather than just hastening your normal rate of healing like the necro spell and ring would do 09:20:28 um do people actually like that forge dwarf idea 09:21:11 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:22:56 seem to be MD with slightly adjusted aptitudes 09:23:21 FR: blacksmithing skill 09:23:45 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:19 an (a)bility to repair corroded weapons/armour? 09:24:32 "I want to play heavy armour FE/EE but orcs are gross so here's a new race with ridiculously good apts for it" 09:24:42 or plain enchant :P 09:25:04 i'm not particularly excited by it either but it's more productive than the ridiculous complaining at least :P 09:25:15 heh, just fork crawl and create a race with 5s for all ats. 09:25:18 apts * 09:26:02 call it "Newb" 09:26:07 you really should make human apts +2 so that people stop thinking they need absurd apts to do stuff 09:26:15 or they can keep thinking it 09:27:12 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 09:27:21 kilobyte: yes, I think so (re Ce) 09:27:24 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:27:28 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:28:06 03kilobyte * r95b763f25134 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc: Make centaurs Fastmeta 1 Herbi 1, now that it no longer affects thresholds. 09:28:07 i wonder how much of a difference it'd actually make perception-wise if humans were just +1 in everything (and all the other apts were shifted up by one as well) 09:28:21 probably an annoyingly large one :( 09:29:05 we can shift it in the aptitude code so it would actually do the same as current aptitudes :p 09:29:19 exactly, yeah :P 09:42:10 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 09:49:13 Are aptitude variances linear? (eg the difference between 1 and 2 is thes same as -3 and -4 ? 09:49:42 depends on what you mean by "difference" 09:50:16 elliptic, the scaling performed when applying xp 09:50:34 but the amount of xp you need to get a certain level in a skill is an exponential function of the apt 09:50:49 (or rather, the amount of skill points you need) 09:51:01 so the ratio between 1 and 2 is the same as between 3 and 4 09:52:08 k 09:53:56 increasing aptitude by 4 halves cost 09:54:16 increasing aptitude by 2 cuts cost by sqrt(2) 10:03:10 Cryp71c: i had the double stab thing again just now 10:03:20 jeanjacques, on trunk? 10:03:22 yes 10:03:31 pastebin a ss of the text please 10:04:09 better go play some SpEn before the bug gets fixed 10:04:42 http://pastebin.com/Vn6wdE8W 10:04:47 :P 10:05:14 could it be related to the fleeing changes? 10:05:35 that's wierd, no idea..I only just got back 10:14:09 03kilobyte 07nausea * racc561b01b02 10/crawl-ref/source/ (food.cc status.cc): Relax nausea at starving. 10:25:15 <|amethyst> hm... I saw the same double-stab thing very recently, but I'm having problems reproducing it in wizard mode 10:25:53 |amethyst: i mostly got it when using EH one square away on a SpEn and stepping in to stab 10:26:00 maybe it's related to spriggan speed or something 10:26:09 03kilobyte * rc59df72af9d2 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Restore the healing ghouls get from clean chunks. 10:26:11 03kilobyte * r6405c4aa44bf 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files): Merge branch 'nausea'. Blame dpeg! 10:26:14 <|amethyst> aha 10:26:25 <|amethyst> I just reproduced it 10:26:33 <|amethyst> I think I have an idea, doing a trace to check 10:26:49 * Zannick blames dpeg 10:27:07 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 10:27:11 hi 10:32:42 Hi! 10:33:33 any bugs I should know about? 10:34:05 doublestabbing 10:34:19 not my department. 10:34:23 kilobyte: how does nausea work? or should I ask dpeg? :P 10:34:58 hopefully I'll be able to deliver a better autoexplorer by January 10:35:03 elliptic: instead of stopping regen, prevents you from eating 10:35:26 kilobyte: so this is instead of sickness? 10:35:28 I'm competing in the AI challenge and part of it entails rolling solid exploration algorithms 10:35:29 <|amethyst> I think I got it 10:36:16 <|amethyst> if the stab put the creature below the flee threshhold, the monster's behaviour is unchanged, so it's still asleep 10:39:06 <|amethyst> compiling to test my fix 10:39:58 hmm 10:40:17 can anyone think of a flavour justification for a demonspawn mut where you set blood on fire 10:40:30 it was going to just be player blood but the player doesn't bleed very often 10:40:32 MarvinPA: you're a demon… who sets blood on fire? :) That sounds flavourful enough 10:40:53 You stoke the fires within? 10:41:09 some kind of fiery demonic aura maybe, yeah 10:41:13 MarvinPA: specify what the mutation does 10:41:20 you're too lazy to poison them then cast ignite poison, so you use a shortcut ignite blood? 10:41:33 Zannick++; 10:41:36 Xiberia: at the moment, puts flame clouds on top of blood splatters 10:41:39 MarvinPA: i'm not a fan of mutations that are only useful against living monsters 10:41:40 ah 10:41:47 -!- ais523_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:41:57 MarvinPA: can you set yourself on fire with that? 10:42:31 probably, the idea is for it to be an alternative to throw hellfire 10:42:41 but it can be weaker and a tier 2 mut instead of a tier 3 one 10:43:04 i don't see the tier 3 muts as being stronger currently 10:43:07 could get flame cloud immunity like icemail does for freezing clouds 10:43:07 just... later 10:43:28 Is this scummable? 10:44:12 i don't see that it would be particularly 10:44:23 MarvinPA: the flame thing could be cool if you could actually get blood from yourself somehow 10:44:26 i'm just worried about it being weak, mainly 10:44:37 maybe sublimation could be made bloody? 10:44:58 Evaporating pot blood doesn't leave bloodstains, 'eh? 10:45:07 steam, no? 10:45:25 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:45:41 wouldn't an ignite blood mutation make potions of blood burst into flames? :) 10:46:21 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: at work] 10:48:41 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:50:37 <|amethyst> the ME_WHACK event gets fired before the ME_HURT event, right? 10:53:01 <|amethyst> oh, no it does not 10:55:57 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:00:24 <|amethyst> okay, this seems to work, and doesn't stop fleeing 11:01:12 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:01:30 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:06:59 <|amethyst> patch for double-stab at https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4799 11:08:19 a tavern post just reminded me of something: why is geryon still flying? 11:08:37 that can drop the horn in water, or worse, lava 11:08:56 and unspoiled players wont know they need the horn 11:09:11 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 11:09:14 I believe I've seen it happen after someone dragged him to hell lair 11:09:16 <|amethyst> jeanjacques: good call on blaming the fleeing changes 11:09:19 (i actually had it drop in water once due to being stupid and forgetting about the horn, nothing fedhas cant fix, but lava would be bad) 11:09:37 and that was lava 11:09:40 monqy: the entrances to the hell brances have water/lava 11:09:40 does seem sort of weird that he flies, yeah 11:09:49 well, he has wings 11:09:51 in tiles 11:09:53 alefury: yeah I know 11:10:09 alefury: and the hell lair ending has a bunch of lava right next to the hell gateway 11:10:14 doesn't his tile look like duke nukem with three heads or something 11:10:20 yeah :) 11:10:25 well no 11:10:29 monqy: You mean, losing the horn of geryon to lava? 11:10:30 it used to, it got changed 11:10:35 ah 11:11:17 no wait. im not sure. there were tile proposals with 3 heads on mantis. 11:11:19 dtsund: I recall seeing it happen 11:11:22 I've *done* that. 11:11:32 And I knew full well I needed the horn. 11:12:24 I don't know if that's the reason I've never allruned a berserker or if it's the reason I once managed to 11-rune a berserker, though. 11:13:38 so changing him to not fly would probably be good? 11:14:00 I'd say so 11:14:07 MarvinPA: can you do that? 11:14:13 sure 11:14:31 there are some issues with chokepoints near geh/coc 11:14:38 but there usually is something near tar anyway 11:14:40 <|amethyst> I would complain about mythology, but Geryon flying isn't universal anyway 11:14:41 which has walls 11:14:42 I guess he could be killed more easily from the water or whatever, but there's plenty of other denizens to make trouble. 11:15:21 usually complaints about demon lord mythology go towards antaeus; some complaints about geryon would be a nice change of pace 11:15:30 oh right, flying over water + ranged. i think galehar did some stuff to prevent such tactics, but i dont know how well it works. 11:15:44 @??beast 11:15:44 unknown monster: "beast" 11:15:48 @??hell beast 11:15:48 hell beast (072) | Speed: 10-17 | HD: 5 | Health: 39-98 | AC/EV: 4/9 | Damage: 28, 20 | Flags: 05demonic | Res: 06magic(28), 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 288. 11:15:58 hm 11:16:15 they can't fly or swim or lavaswim? 11:16:20 Geryon doesn't get lured out any more, does he? 11:16:37 I recall something like that yeah 11:16:39 jle: he doesnt follow i think 11:17:11 also reaching makes it a bit inconvenient 11:17:20 And the hard part in killing him IMO is doing it with everyone else annoying you at the same time. 11:17:32 Which you'd get more of when you ran for the water, probably. 11:17:40 just lua drop the horn in the middle of the vestibule when he dies? 11:17:58 maybe if the horn is magical 11:18:07 or skip the whole horn thing and open the entrances on death? 11:18:09 and can teleport when geryon dies 11:18:13 that would work nicely 11:18:15 Oh, good idea. "The horn of Geryon shimmers and moves to await its new master"? 11:18:51 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:19:16 the whole horn thing could go imo 11:19:25 it's just one more thing players have to know and do 11:19:38 it is pretty flavorful, but yeah, could just be done automagically. 11:19:54 could be done if the horn is lost somehow 11:20:08 might as just well do it automatically 11:20:12 "the horn produces a mourning sound before sinking to the bottom of the sea" 11:20:25 I never really understood how unspoiled players were supposed to figure out the horn puzzle anyway 11:20:29 +1 for horn thing happening automatically when you kill geryon 11:20:44 and then geryon can still fly 11:20:47 even though it will mess up that trove price :( 11:20:50 :( 11:20:56 the horn can still be an item 11:21:00 if it was given some good purpose 11:21:18 it produces hostile beasts :) 11:21:27 (unless he is still dropping the horn, which he could I guess) 11:21:29 a very very poor mans butterflies 11:21:30 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 11:21:37 (i have never used it for that purpose) 11:21:43 hmm, still not sure if this mut is any good 11:21:44 alefury: butterflies that trample you out of danger 11:21:55 but when you stab something it's almost guaranteed to create a ton of flames 11:21:58 good for fleeing with chei chars 11:21:59 which is pretty awesome 11:22:11 MarvinPA: Sounds neat at least! 11:22:29 it would also influence weapon choice, right? 11:22:35 which could be nice 11:22:40 Maybe it could produce increasingly hostile hell beasts a la elemental items (unless you worship good gods). 11:22:43 in a tiny way i guess, sure :P 11:23:00 increasingly hostile? 11:23:22 Friendly with some chance based on, say, evo and number of summoned beasts. 11:23:32 could cost hp :) 11:23:51 just for fun :) 11:24:05 * alefury cant come up with decent flavor for it costing hp 11:24:08 It'd fit with the other eeeeeevil items. 11:24:26 Or rather, deeeeemonic items. 11:24:50 speaking of which, are the other demon lord trophies good yet? I know staff of dispater was changed a while ago; I never got to try it, but it sounds kind of useful?? 11:25:12 I hear it's pretty good for two-three-shotting aliches. 11:25:15 mmm 11:25:22 sounds good enough 11:25:26 dispater has always been good, do you mean the sceptre? 11:25:33 (of asmodeus) 11:25:35 sceptre of asmodeus still useless then? 11:25:42 summons hostile demons and shoots lightning bolts? 11:25:42 i dunno, quite possibly 11:25:50 i changed it but it might still be no good 11:25:54 hm 11:25:56 it summons charmed demons 11:26:22 they always start friendly but then they go hostile and are durably summoned 11:26:31 hm 11:26:44 That sounds fun. Are they tough demons? 11:26:51 maybe good for spamming a bunch of fiends then running away? i dunno, possibly they should be temporary 11:26:59 they're the same ones asmodeus summons 11:27:10 spamming a bunch of fiends sounds like a good way to screw yourself over 11:27:11 so balrug, hellion, fiend, pit fiend, efreet 11:27:24 sun demon! 11:27:26 ah yes 11:27:40 I will have to try and clear zot with this. Is it evo-based? 11:27:52 good way to test it 11:28:22 no, it just has a flat chance of success 11:28:54 i think 11:28:57 SamB, thanks for your die fix 11:29:14 Cryp71c: you're quite welcome 11:29:28 SamB, was that the psatebin you gave me that I never quite got around to? 11:29:42 not quite 11:30:19 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * r56a7a78f025c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (contrib/sdl melee_attack.cc): Unify to-hit messages, temporarily add in debug messages 11:31:09 it was involved, but really it only fixed the message 11:31:35 I mean, so instead of SIGSEGV you get an error message 11:33:46 The pastebin was from running valgrind on crawl while it crashed because the attk_type member on a melee_attack was uninitialized 11:37:13 SamB, do you recall if it was crashing on a player-attack, or a monster attack? 11:37:30 no 11:38:10 * SamB hopes his ccache is reasonably primed 11:41:21 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110701115916]] 11:42:49 SamB, there's a command kilo typed up for me a week ago when I was last merging, it fetches the diff between the most recent common ancestor between two branches, so I can look at the difflog of all changes on the target branch (like master) since the LAST time I merged... 11:43:04 it was git diff `something here` something 11:43:08 :P 11:43:40 `git merge-base TARGET` maybe? 11:44:43 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 11:44:48 oh, and the last something would be TARGET 11:45:19 yeah that's not it, that seems to somewhat work, but it gives me a lot of stuff that I did in my last merge, I think. 11:45:22 you can use three dots between the branches to do that iirc 11:45:25 or was it two 11:45:52 hrm, I may just use gitorious to look at the last changes to fight.cc 11:45:59 so I can apply those changes manually on this conflict resolution. 11:48:05 let me try actually doing it 11:51:09 Cryp71c: I think your last "merge" may not have been a real merge 11:51:27 perhaps 11:53:17 what's the last commit you remember merging that's still in the output of: git log --graph --oneline --decorate $(git merge-base master unified_combat_control)'^'..master 11:54:38 Cryp71c: what is it you are actually doing with the combat rewrite thing? 11:54:47 (the '^' is probably superfluous) 11:54:54 will it have any noticeable effect for the players, or is it just code cleanup? 11:54:56 Xiberia: I assume he's trying to clean up the code 11:55:02 figured as much 11:55:10 Xiberia, it will have some noticeable effect, but its mostly cleaning up code. 11:55:27 The noticeable effects are mostly sideeffects of merging and mangling such a large amount of code. 11:55:41 But those will be largely considered bugs, I think, and fixed appropriately. 11:55:50 cleaning up the code will make it smoother for the devs, and in turn you can churn out more patches! 11:55:56 or maybe the old behaviour will have been bugs in some cases ;-) 11:56:06 SamB, indeed, I've stripped out a ton of special case stuff. 11:56:23 The end objective is to be able to have a truely unified set of code, so when determining the amount of damage to do with, say, a falchion 11:56:45 Cryp71c: did you try that git log command yet? 11:56:52 whether its player or monster, the code will do the same logic, and we can add variability between monsters and players by adjusting what monsters return as their long blade skill (HD?) 11:57:14 sounds intuitive 11:57:15 SamB, yeah, but when I last merged, I didn't really consult the commit messages much. 11:57:18 oh 11:57:19 is it all just a mess currently? 11:57:23 lets try something else then ... 11:57:30 Xiberia, previously, its slightly less of a mess now. 11:57:50 The branch's present state, however, is total lack of functionality :P there's bugs everywhere, kilobyte crashed the first time he ran into a monster :P 11:58:00 smooth 11:58:07 Branded weapons don't seem to ever work, for one...trying to fix that atm. 11:58:11 -!- ais523 is now known as ais523\unfoog 11:58:22 However lots of stuff does work, surprisingly..stabbing, for one, and most general combat. 11:58:31 messages are a little mangled :P 11:58:32 Cryp71c: git log --graph --decorate -p $(git merge-base master unified_combat_control)..master 11:59:37 use a hugeterm 11:59:39 SamB, tell you what, is there a way to look at the diff of a file from a certain date onwards? 11:59:44 SamB, (yeah that's a ton of stuff :P) 11:59:53 I just need the diff of fight.cc from Oct 25 to now. 12:00:22 what time on Oct 25? 12:00:37 <|amethyst> git diff 5efc2eb HEAD 12:02:06 Cryp71c: actually ... 12:02:12 |amethyst, I need the diff from master, not my branch 12:02:17 without abandoning this merge. 12:02:29 it looks like the merge base *is* about on october 25 12:02:49 <|amethyst> git diff 5efc2eb master 12:03:04 |amethyst, oh...didn't know that would work :P 12:03:11 <|amethyst> where 5efc2eb is `git merge-base master unified_combat_control` 12:03:54 or $(git merge-base master unified_combat_control), as I like to write it ;-) 12:04:15 <|amethyst> I'd write it that way in a script 12:04:23 <|amethyst> but `` is easier for me to type 12:04:29 MUWHAHAHAHA 12:04:31 got it 12:04:40 thanks guys (git diff 5efc2eb master -- fight.cc) 12:05:00 gives me the 1 commit that's resulted in this whole chunk conflicting 12:07:52 There, removal of MDs and the merging in of nausea branch are merged into UCC 12:08:02 Sorry for my scrub questions on git 12:08:11 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * r740d005bc0d8 10/crawl-ref/ (83 files in 15 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into unified_combat_control 12:08:43 oh, is that thing still going on 12:10:17 Eronarn, :D 12:10:25 I've been gone for 4 months, its sad idle waiting on me. 12:10:34 sat* 12:13:21 ah 12:15:54 Cryp71c: no problem, better you ask "stupid" questions than that you make a stupid mistake 12:16:14 you'll probably make enough of those anyway, the rest of us certainly do ;-) 12:19:08 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:20:47 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 12:22:45 <|amethyst> hint 1: don't rebase after pushing 12:23:11 |amethyst, have I done that recently? 12:23:28 <|amethyst> no, but I did twice in a row on my fork :) 12:23:36 also, is it intended that portal-monsters (Volcano, for example) can follow you through the portal? 12:23:53 yes? 12:24:05 elliptic, I don't recall them having done that before, figured I'd ask. 12:24:59 the game is a little inconsistent about when monsters can follow you through portals, but usually they can 12:26:23 |amethyst: did you use the reflog to un-rebase? 12:26:33 you can't be followed into portals, i think 12:26:37 but you can be followed out 12:26:43 yes, that's normal 12:26:44 and good 12:26:52 -!- edlothio1 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:26:57 at least, it's good for HOPrs 12:27:06 marvinpa: yeah... it mainly feels weird with ziggurats 12:27:20 since monsters can't follow you from one level to the next, but they can follow you out 12:27:50 (followers won't follow you *into* portal vault, where they may die horribly or become lost, but any you aqcquire while there have at least a decent chance of following you out.) 12:28:05 make the zig 27 portal only appear when all the monsters are dead? :P (yes this would ruin pacifist zigs) 12:28:10 i like the consequence of it being (a tiny bit) safer to go to the next floor than to exit, if you're in really dire straights :P 12:28:14 elliptic: oh, yeah, that does sound a bit odd 12:28:18 but yeah, it is pretty weird 12:28:18 eronarn: some people do leave zig before zig:27, you know :P 12:28:25 elliptic: ?! 12:28:33 do they do that in the dungeon, too 12:28:33 perhaps it should be a flag on the portal('s cell)? 12:29:07 Eronarn: yes, they follow you between floors of D 12:29:16 it would be cool if differences between kinds of portals showed up in glyph 12:29:25 maybe there are too many for that though 12:29:44 what kinds of portals ? 12:29:57 it could be good to have different glyph for permanent features and one-time portals 12:30:00 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:30:16 so shops, entrances to pan/abyss/hell, and so on would have one glyph 12:30:43 not sure this is really worth it though 12:31:00 maybe just give each its own color ? 12:31:14 I mean, each category 12:31:35 well, most of them have different colors already 12:31:37 shops vs. single-use vs. multi-use 12:31:55 oh, well, probably it's fine then 12:32:20 (I don't know that I've ever seen a multi-use portal that I didn't make in wizmode!) 12:32:45 i have 12:32:51 though arguably it was a bug 12:33:08 it was a perma-bazaar, which when i exited announced a timer on itself 12:33:15 so i reentered and got another bazaar 12:33:31 and again? 12:33:40 or did it eventually actually time out? 12:33:46 yeah, there have been a couple bugs with that in the past 12:33:59 no, it turned into an empty arch when i left the second time 12:35:23 elliptic: there's lots of potential portal glyphs in unicode. harder in ascii 12:36:01 i kind of feel like shops should be a non-yellow $ or something, though 12:36:34 ascii is what I'm concerned about, yes 12:36:39 (and what I use :P) 12:37:02 * SamB uses "dec" 12:37:03 huh, didn't realize 12:37:15 what's the portal symbol in "ascii"? 12:37:19 \ 12:37:34 and in unicode it's the intersection operator iirc 12:37:38 yeah 12:37:42 except i have mine redefined to be omega i think 12:38:20 which unfortunately looks bad in some fonts :( 12:38:25 ends up being too curly 12:39:46 my personal favorite glyph for a portal would require combining characters: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combining_Cyrillic_Millions 12:40:07 suggestion: clouds get ¤ and one sort of portal gets § -- for people who use the limited config that has clouds on # it wouldn't hurt if they lost just a bit more information would it? I can't think of anything else :( 12:40:45 <3 ¤ 12:40:51 hm, can't see that one 12:41:07 yeah, that's the problem 12:44:02 Eronarn: intersection ?!? 12:44:15 i like that symbol for portals 12:44:15 I believe in "dec" it's the paragraph symbol 12:44:29 I kind of like that 12:45:14 what do clouds use now in the other defaults? 12:46:01 (and what's the "ibm" for portals?) 12:49:38 -!- edlothio1 is now known as edlothiol 12:53:25 -!- jle_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:53:47 really, it would be nice if we had a table with a row for each feature and a column for each char_set 12:56:28 it would also be nice if we could split the "default cset" and "interpret numeric codes in cset/feature/mon_glyph as X" effects of char_set into different options 12:58:36 I guess that's what cset_ibm and cset_dec are for, anyway 12:59:19 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:01:35 but that doesn't really do anything for feature or mon_glyph, now, does it? 13:02:15 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:04:58 -!- ais523\unfoog has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12:21 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:14:16 anyone know who stole gastronok's hat? 13:14:23 There looks to be a bug in the monster action code where a monster which is fleeing (fear) can still not flee and "hit you from afar" with a reaching weapon. 13:14:45 (until you move another square away, causing them to be 3 blocks, and THEN they start fleeing as appropriate) 13:16:53 hmm 13:17:27 i think there was some change to how gastronok's equipment is handled recently 13:17:30 maybe that caused it? 13:17:46 _Really attack the holy holy swine? 13:18:32 it seems to be hostile though 13:20:39 hmm 13:20:49 looks like you get prompts whenever you try and attack holy monsters even if they're hostile 13:20:52 no penance though 13:22:56 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 13:24:16 the "holy" prompt seems somewhat redundant anyway 13:24:41 since it's only actually bad if they're neutral or friendly 13:25:52 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:32:08 03dolorous * rfde78b23ac27 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/ (database/godspeak.txt descript/gods.txt): Add wording fixes. 13:34:07 03MarvinPA * r9028046554a4 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Don't let Geryon fly 13:34:07 03MarvinPA * r409c34ec9306 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc: Remove passive mapping as a DS mut, re-tier some other mutations 13:34:08 03MarvinPA * r35bc40559868 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files): Re-retier some DS muts, add two new mutations: Foul Stench and Ignite Blood 13:34:08 03MarvinPA * r906c603e9e1a 10/crawl-ref/source/misc.cc: Don't spam warning messages when trying to attack hostile holies under a good god 13:34:47 ooh new DS muts 13:35:40 SamB: there's no reason to use any of ancient charsets anymore, the option is kept only to support old configs (as most old howtos used cset_ibm) 13:35:44 i'm really not sure what they're like in terms of balance at all but hopefully having done that will inspire me to play a bunch of DS again so i can find out :P 13:36:03 kilobyte: that would also work 13:36:04 SamB: and extra sets of defaults are welcome 13:36:20 for example, the regular one must not use any rare glyphs 13:37:08 my definition of "rare" is "outside WGL4" since that can be said to be the lowest common denominator of popular fonts 13:37:12 ... but char_set = dec/bim are documented to change the interpretation of codepoints for the other three options 13:37:17 er. 13:37:18 *ibm 13:37:24 MarvinPA, yay! 13:37:27 ??ignite blood 13:37:27 I don't have a page labeled ignite_blood in my learndb. 13:37:36 MarvinPA, add to learndb for us? :D 13:37:41 heh 13:37:44 will do 13:38:00 choosing cset_dec and cset_ibm has an effect of changing how numbers you specify are interpreted, yeah 13:38:18 kilobyte: that's the thing I was saying should be split out 13:38:22 marvinpa: what does sickening monsters actually do 13:38:27 or removed 13:38:44 or, wait 13:38:54 just the same as sickening the player i think 13:38:58 char_set = ibm and char_set = dec, isn't it? 13:39:00 SamB: you can't remove something most players use (at least before 0.8) 13:39:05 pretty much, yeah 13:39:08 so not particularly good, but the rRot and miasma are meant to be the main fun thing 13:39:19 and they are mostly same as old cset_unicode, too 13:39:39 with some minor differences as these charsets are missing different symbols 13:40:19 I guess what I mean is it would be nice to be able to pick "char_set = dec" but still use unicode for any customizations I might make 13:41:14 if for no other reason than to avoid having to look for a table of DEC line-drawing characters 13:42:13 the whole reason for them to exist is to let people use those tables 13:42:16 those char_sets are presumably still useful for restricting the glyphs to those likely to be available in your console/terminal's fonts 13:42:28 not cset_dec / cset_ibm 13:42:36 those are not a problem! 13:42:40 a couple of players very loudly complained that they know the table of CP437 ("ibm") codes but not Unicode 13:42:49 not really 13:43:04 CSET_IBM used to be the case... before Windows 95 13:43:44 that's the charset in BIOS 13:44:16 it was the only real choice in DOS 13:44:33 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:44:43 those are also the default codepage for consoles 13:44:47 no other system used it since, though 13:44:53 uhm, what consoles? 13:45:04 the black boxes with text in them 13:45:10 on Windows 13:45:44 I wish it were 13:45:47 you know, the ones that the NT kernel lies about the ownership of 13:46:06 The correct term for those on Windows is "Yawnsoles" 13:47:14 C:\code\crawl\crawl-ref\source>mode con cp 13:47:16 Status for device CON: 13:47:16 ---------------------- 13:47:16 Code page: 437 13:47:21 on XP 13:47:40 using MS codepage numbers: DOS: cp437, Windows console: CP850 (852 in Poland), Windows GUI: cp1252 (1250 in Poland_ 13:47:52 hmm 13:48:06 so it's lying to me? 13:48:30 850/852 has broken frames which was annoying in the old days 13:48:54 not sure, lemme check, it might be different across versions 13:50:01 Oh, I guess it's probably different if you use the german release/locale 13:50:10 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:50:59 -!- ais523 is now known as ais523\unfoog 13:51:15 It might be good to provide an option for that on Windows, since you said that makes a difference with the old-style bitmapped fonts? 13:52:25 (or are those only available in one codepage anyway?) 13:53:15 oh, found the thing. There is a difference between "western european" and "US". The former has 850 and 1252, the latter 437 and 1252. 13:54:27 if you do "mode con cp select=437", do the missing line drawing glyphs come back ? 13:57:36 no ancient program to test 13:58:12 it's something everyone kept muttering profanities about fifteen years ago 13:58:20 oh, speaking of win32 Console, how come Crawl always uses the very top of the console's scrollback? 13:58:28 with the three different codepages used by Microsoft 13:58:51 neither of which was Mazovia -- encoding that won Polish standard wars 13:59:30 but since Microsoft refused to support it, everyone had to reencode everything :( 13:59:37 yeah, it's bad enough here in the US, where at least real DOS and the Console use the same codepage 13:59:44 SamB: if you clear the screen, it starts back at the top 14:00:00 -!- jle_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:00:02 it doesn't seem to clear the screen though 14:00:11 (and why should it?) 14:00:29 maybe it clears the rectangle it actually uses 14:00:59 not sure... is it a problem somehow? 14:01:35 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 14:01:45 it annoys me that it behaves in such an idiosynchratic manner 14:04:21 although I guess less does some pretty odd things too 14:32:41 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.7/20100713130626]] 14:39:02 I got a pretty wierd Rune vault for Snake 14:39:10 does it have lava 14:39:37 or do you mean you created one? 14:39:38 There are three stairs guarded by a bunch of guardian serpents and greater nagas, but one of the stairs is an escape hatch 14:39:44 Nah I entered one. 14:39:47 ah, that one is ancient 14:40:04 sometimes all three stairs are actually stairs 14:40:09 It felt like all the stairs should lead to that starting spot, as it is now I just took another stair and made it easier. 14:40:19 elliptic: I assumed it was mdae to be like that 14:40:24 All stairs that is. 14:40:41 it is intentional that sometimes all stairs lead to the vault and sometimes only two do 14:40:46 ok 14:41:19 -!- Xiberia has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:41:45 it is definitely the most difficult snake:5 ending when all the stairs lead to the vault, and possibly even when only two do 14:41:51 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 14:47:10 I was lucky to have great stealth too. 14:47:12 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:47:20 So they just slept on when I came down the first time. 14:47:24 The end of the vault though... 14:47:29 I just saw it now. 14:47:36 Mayb I'll do some V first! 14:47:47 But this is getting ##crawly, sorry 14:56:10 Cryp71c: why did you go back with contrib/sdl? 14:57:15 kilobyte, I don't believe I meant to...I thought I saw something about it being different, however I figured it was a local-git issue and was trying not to commit it. 15:00:57 kilobyte, how can I get that back to where it was? 15:02:09 03Keskitalo * ra057f740d392 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Use Curio's new base crystal plate tile from #4621, and add two more ego/randart variations from #3827. Remove the old base crystal plate tile. 15:02:19 03Keskitalo * r76db36af1a90 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/demons/ (iron_imp.png shadow_imp.png): Use Curio's iron imp tile from #4625, also clean up the shadow imp tile (using head from Curio's tile). 15:03:41 Cryp71c: cd contrib/sdl;git reset --hard 822a49888f4a4060594e272640faac462953ce1e 15:03:41 kilobyte: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 15:17:05 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 15:19:44 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:21:19 kilobyte: any idea why we don't use USE_UNIX_SIGNALS with MinGW? 15:22:48 win32 doesn't have them... 15:23:59 ... but what about libc? 15:26:53 -!- syllogism- has quit [] 15:27:07 unless you use some form of Unix emulation like Cygwin, there are tens of partially redundant signal-like APIs, but none are compatible with POSIX 15:27:52 Cryp71c: oh, I'm still getting that crash from before 15:28:06 SamB, yeah still working on that. 15:28:30 can give you a save file to quickly reproducec 15:31:13 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 15:34:07 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * rd8563977e682 10/crawl-ref/source/contrib/sdl: Fix contrib/sdl 15:37:03 SamB, I think I've got it now, 1 sec 15:37:08 kilobyte, should be fixed now. 15:39:51 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:40:07 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * r0013ddb42fde 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Fix various bugs and "helpless monster" text 15:47:07 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:51:20 I'm having some trouble with an internal compiler error on gcc 4.0 that seems to be caused by new additions to mon-data.h in commit 3acf086 (gnoll shamans and sergeants). The error messages are pretty opaque so I've had a hard time diagnosing it effectively 15:54:11 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:55:09 kilobyte: my understanding is that signal() is part of the C standard library, though ... 15:59:34 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 16:02:06 ... eek, strange. Seems like signal() and raise() are sort-of implemented, but there are no means to actually send a signal to another process. 16:02:18 true 16:04:11 probably related to the fact that the C standard doesn't mention processes, and the fact that this isn't part of the Win32 API, but is implemented in msvcrt alone 16:05:26 if I read MSDN right, only SIGFPE and SIGSEGV are actually generated 16:05:37 index: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/d6dtz42k.aspx 16:05:45 signal(): http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/xdkz3x12%28v=VS.100%29.aspx 16:06:20 I think the part about SIGINT got mangled 16:07:20 says it's not supported... but the wording is unclear 16:07:28 the Console API documentation says that SIGINT and SIGBREAK signals are generated 16:07:47 I don't know why it says this, when that clearly can't be part of the actual Console API ... 16:07:47 many years ago I wanted to catch this, and found out the way to do so is SetConsoleCtrlHandler() 16:08:07 which is win32 not POSIX 16:08:30 I vaguely recall trying the signal and it didn't work then 16:08:45 I might be wrong though, it was too long ago 16:08:51 * SamB goes to consult the MSVCRT sources 16:09:41 and SetWinEventHook() for a bunch of other signals like HUP and WINCH 16:24:22 morning 16:34:03 Maximal Enchantment Level Incorrect? (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4842) by Kokor Hekkus 16:48:57 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:49:46 -!- Xiberia has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238]] 16:50:11 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 16:51:38 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:56:42 I'm coding the Evolution mutation -- should an amulet of rMut affects its chance to remove itself? 16:57:19 ...evolution mutation? 16:57:22 i am intrigued 16:58:45 does that help the player go from Oklob Sapling to Oklob Plant? 16:58:55 Xiberia: every X time, gives you coinflip() ? good mutation : random mutation. This results in only about 20% bad mutations, but those are damn hard to remove. 16:59:00 :p 16:59:26 <|amethyst> Hey, I've got to head out for a bit, but I've got a few patches/merge requests on mantis to be reviewed: #4833, #4799, and #4840... the last may be somewhat controversial, as at least some devs have expressed the desire to remove the swappability checks for training. 16:59:26 kilobyte: does it have the usual chances for mutations to cancel each other out? 16:59:28 Fedhas could love it :p Currently only Xom does. 16:59:45 kilobyte: is it possible to grow horns/claws etc? 16:59:56 that would really screw with people :P 17:01:01 any mutations you can get randomly, yeah 17:04:07 better hope you find curemut before you get too many mutations covering evolution 17:04:13 could be sort of interesting 17:05:17 kilobyte: have you considered making it based on xp gain rather than time? it sort of makes more sense that way and might be more interesting 17:05:33 if it is based on time, I can see people choosing to rest in temple until it goes away 17:07:22 perhaps, yeah 17:07:55 currently would take over 20k turns to go away, and you end up pretty heavily mutated 17:08:22 unless wearing rMut... I'm pondering making it affect the chance to go away so it'd only slow down the process 17:08:27 about rMut, I'd say rMut should affect its chance to do anything, including remove itself 17:08:41 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 17:11:46 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:12:33 yeah, I think just slowing down the process is best 17:14:57 hrm, quite hard to come up with a good exp-based formula 17:15:50 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:16:44 make sure to throw in some stepdowns somewhere 17:16:51 to make it "crawl" 17:16:57 -!- MarvinPA__ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:18:33 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:20:35 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:22:04 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 17:26:33 kilobyte: an exp-based formula should probably be scaled by the xp between the current level and the next level 17:27:56 so whenever you gain xp, you have a (some constant)*(xp gain)/(xp needed to gain 1.0 levels) chance of evolving 17:27:57 early on, you get multiple levels for a single monster 17:28:27 how would this work at xl 27? 17:28:31 I'd be fine with that capping out the chance of evolving with a formula like I just suggested 17:28:42 right, you'd need to handle xl 27 also 17:29:54 or perhaps, if you didn't get enough XP in meantime, the mutations shift towards bad ones 17:31:07 it'd be cool if evolution gave you more defensive muts if you got hit a lot, higher chance of aux attacks if you fight unarmed and so on 17:31:18 i guess spellcasters wouldn't get much variety though 17:32:13 FR: mutations that modify aptitudes for different schools of magic 17:32:40 ??fr 17:32:40 fr[1/3]: Crawl-speak for Feature Request, a reference to the development page for Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup where players can add input as to what they want to see in the game. http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ but please check the archives first, as there are a few ideas that have been posted and rejected many many times. 17:32:54 ??fr[2] 17:32:55 fr[2/3]: Feature requests and feedback go on the {dev wiki}, which is set up for discussions. {Mantis}, the replacement for SourceForge, is for bug reports and patches. 17:33:00 ??fr[3] 17:33:00 fr[3/3]: Commonly contains ideas of such well-thought-out nature as two-headed ogre PC races, cooking, and Natasha to go with Boris. 17:33:21 * SamB actualy likes that last one 17:34:03 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:34:18 * SamB wonders why there's nothing about lines beginning with "FR: " generally being at least half-joking in nature 17:34:52 because that's entirely untrue! 17:36:58 I hope you're kidding! 17:37:02 I mean, look at these: 17:37:03 FR: spriggans wear gloves as body armor 17:37:04 FR: throwing armour pieces at a spriggan baker will make him friendly 17:37:04 FR: Hat of headstanding. Increased bloodflow increases mana regen, prevents you from moving for two/three turns 17:37:30 that's what I got for "/lastlog FR:" in ##crawl 17:39:42 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 17:40:03 MarvinPA__: awesome DS mutations! I completely missed any talk about them, nice surprise :) 17:40:58 * dpeg feels sick tonight. 17:42:26 i feel like blaming you for something 17:42:39 * dpeg always gets the blame. 17:42:43 -!- dpeg is now known as blamepeg 17:43:27 * Zannick blames dpeg for crawl being awesome 17:43:42 kilobyte: dzieki! 17:43:54 Zannick: nah, I never coded anything. 17:44:18 dpeg, are those demonspawn mutation suggestions on the wiki? 17:44:24 my wiki-fu is not strong 17:46:15 yes, maybe 17:46:18 -!- blamepeg is now known as dpeg 17:46:32 the blood one is definitely new to me, though 17:50:49 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:56:09 03kilobyte * rcc8cebfd9f07 10/crawl-ref/source/ (effects.cc enum.h mutation-data.h mutation.cc mutation.h): A new mutation "Evolution" -- brings in new mutations. 17:56:09 03kilobyte * r0d1c40dd6fa5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (effects.cc enum.h player.cc): Don't trigger Evolution when the player is doing nothing. 17:58:44 kilobyte: do those messages mean that it's ready for testing in trunk? 17:59:27 * kilobyte brings this as an offering to Xom, in penance for playing Zin recently. 17:59:52 Xiberia: yeah, anything committed to trunk rather than a branch needs to be good enough for CDO 18:00:19 kilobyte: <3 18:00:44 well, i suppose it's time to quaff some !mut 18:00:49 <|amethyst> SamB: Looked through my 45-line lastlog and counted 10-12 serious suggestions 18:01:01 There is a proposal to remove ?DC. nothing urgent, but you can mull it over 18:01:59 so, I guess "often" would be more accurate than "generally" 18:03:29 -!- jle_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:03:52 <|amethyst> !learn add fr Feature requests on ##crawl are usually not meant to be taken seriously. 18:03:52 fr[4/4]: Feature requests on ##crawl are usually not meant to be taken seriously. 18:04:20 -!- greensnark has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:04:22 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 18:04:24 -!- greensnark has joined ##crawl-dev 18:04:53 <|amethyst> !learn edit fr[4] s/usually/usually pithy one-liners that are/ 18:04:53 fr[4/4]: Feature requests on ##crawl are usually pithy one-liners that are not meant to be taken seriously. 18:05:14 -!- alefury_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:11:58 dpeg: link? 18:13:24 cannot post link, sorry 18:13:35 it says "Curses" in the entry title :) 18:14:25 Hah, I should get a medal for "most replies to a blog post" -- 59 and counting! 18:14:29 And one is even not in there. 18:15:44 dpeg: have you ever played brogue? it's a game that does stuff which crawl simply can't do (totally different design..) but curses in it actually feel relevant 18:16:08 03elliptic * r0dfbe3a069dc 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-restr.cc: Unrestrict maces for ogres. 18:16:14 it's also a good game if you are interested in weapon move ideas, melee is pretty interesting in it (every weapon type has its own special thing) 18:16:43 evilmike: I plan to, but I get very different opinions. Napkin loves it, so I thought I should test it. Then jpeg said it's boring, so I shied away. Guess I should give it a spin myself then :) 18:17:00 it's getting better. I didn't like versions before 1.5 or so 18:17:07 The horrible truth is that I never played anything but NH and Crawl. 18:17:15 A little 100 Rogues. 18:17:25 I just think it's a neat game, because what it does right it does very well. 18:17:40 why is it that nearly every race proposal has too many +4 apts 18:17:48 (or higher) 18:18:08 the thing about curses is kind of interesting in that it's mostly just remove curse being a rare effect (otherwise works the same as in crawl), and curses on magical items reversing the effect they give you 18:18:10 * SamB decides the only thing for it is to have Crawl use its *own* console screen buffer on Windows 18:18:11 elliptic: folks don't think exponentially/logarithmically 18:18:27 i think races like DS or Op with unremarkable apts but interesting racial mechanics are way more fun 18:18:43 well, I think there's also a tendency to design races with one or two specific builds in mind 18:18:50 Xiberia: hm, I think Ogre is an example where aptitudes work well 18:19:25 like this forge dwarf proposal... it seems to be "race of I want the best apts for staff of earth/fire melee in heavy armour" 18:19:28 elliptic: I think more about gods than about species, but I encounter the same problem there. Folks come up with "god for purpose" which generally is not the best approach. 18:20:00 well, kiku is sort of a "god for purpose" but he works out pretty well 18:20:34 extreme apts have their place, but +4 is ridiculous for many skills 18:20:49 also, all the people who want forge dwarf should actually play a deep dwarf sometime 18:20:52 since it sounds like they haven't 18:21:51 you guys should rename HE to "white dwarf" or something 18:21:58 forge dwarf? 18:21:58 graceful, forest dwelling dwarves 18:22:28 I was about to point out that two of our elves are of the ignoble sort: colourless of perverted. But that only really counts once HE is gone :) 18:22:30 xiberia: kiku does suffer a bit from chars often looking very similar to each other 18:22:48 Eronarn: players try to come up with dwarf replacments 18:23:01 elliptic: that's kind of true 18:23:19 dpeg: lava orc 18:23:21 i think that might be related to all books but the first and the last being mostly useless to most builds 18:23:35 and pain brand being so attractive realtive to necronomicon 18:23:43 Eronarn: "dwarf substring not found ERROR" 18:23:44 xiberia: hm? all my kiku chars get agony and sublimation from the second book 18:24:02 * dpeg loves agony 18:24:04 elliptic: what i mean is that sublimation almost always shows up 18:24:09 (i never use agony though) 18:24:19 Sort of OT: is "benignity" a proper word? 18:24:22 you should try agony, it is pretty good (and fun) 18:24:26 yes! 18:24:48 yeah i used it early on in my crawl career, but i got it resisted a lot in one game and subconsciously labeled it useless :P 18:24:57 before everything starts resisting it it's damn powerful 18:25:17 More on topic: could "wand of benignity" convey the idea of temporary MP and HP regeneration _and_ indidcate that DD can use it? 18:25:20 if you keep your necromancy up you can use it reliably on high-ish MR enemies 18:25:26 agony is cool except for all the problems it has like the other all-or-nothing MR spells 18:25:27 if you have decent power then it still works on stuff like fire giants, yeah 18:25:35 dpeg: not a good name imo 18:25:40 brings my thoughts to cancer 18:25:43 Xiberia: then give me others 18:25:48 dpeg: I don't like the wand of regen idea at all 18:25:55 elliptic: why? 18:26:02 you think /HW is fine for DD? 18:26:05 "wand of recovery"? 18:26:06 regeneration isn't tactically interesting 18:26:08 dpeg: not at all. It means "not noticeably harmful". 18:26:46 maybe he's looking for 'beneficence' 18:26:47 elliptic: not sure I agree. It is less interesting than /HW, which is hte point: DD should get something weaker than /HW. 18:26:47 dpeg: basically I don't see the appeal in forcing DD chars to spend time resting 18:27:02 aha 18:27:18 one of the best things about the race is that they only ever need to press '5' for MP 18:27:28 elliptic: +1 18:27:37 i agree 18:27:43 elliptic: well, I often said that I'd never use waiting-for-anything in a new roguelike :) 18:27:43 elliptic: it might be tempting to see how MP could be handled too 18:27:56 wait are we talking about removing DD MP regen? 18:28:17 I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with DD getting such a powerful item as /HW, really. 18:28:44 ok 18:28:51 healing is a no-brainer, remove it 18:29:52 BlastHardcheese: waiting for healing is bad design. It is only so deeply ingrained into Crawl that it cannot be removed anymore -- the best I could come up with are DD and Vp to indicate how good it could have been. 18:30:47 i don't think crawl would work well without waiting for healing, hydra slayer doesn't have it and it's fun in some ways but very irritating in others 18:31:06 -!- MarvinPA__ is now known as MarvinPA 18:31:13 kilobyte: A race with no MP regeneration and some special way of gaining MP could be interesting... not sure this is that good an idea to try to tack onto DD though 18:31:16 it means a mistake you make early on is likely to hurt your chances for the rest of the game 18:31:24 elliptic: golem? :) 18:31:48 Eronarn: any game of this game could work without it. Just have to plan around it, at early stages. More consumables, healing when leaving a level etc. 18:31:49 eronarn: no regeneration works pretty well in doomrl... very different sort of game from crawl, though 18:32:00 *any game of this type 18:32:01 no waiting for healing is one of the nicest things about doomrl, yeah 18:32:46 duration is occasionally of tactical relevance -- for all the rest (and you wait a lot), it is an interface problem 18:33:41 if you care about score, you are sort of encouraged to rest less. this only applies to winning games, though 18:33:57 i dont know if its even possible to have turncount factor in to losing game scores 18:34:00 unnecessary resting and travel does hurt piety somewhat noticeably 18:34:00 score is not a good motivation 18:34:22 You see, in the tutorial we have to say "Rest!" a billion times. It really shows how bad that system is. 18:34:49 But I cannot offer a remedy beyond what is already there. 18:35:09 I tend to have very low turncounts in my games, and it isn't usually because I'm trying for a better score... more that I try to avoid unnecessary piety decay whenever piety is tight 18:35:26 elliptic: you don't count :) 18:35:27 but I think most people don't worry about this 18:36:33 oh, also I like to avoid unnecessary monster spawning, since monsters are generated awake and thus are more dangerous than monsters that are generated when the level 18:36:51 I do that by just travelling to the previous level before doing a long rest 18:37:19 that reminds: can we get at least "no jelly respawning" for 0.10? Ideally, I'd skip all respawning of trivial monsters, too but that could wait if needed. 18:37:20 just common sense by now, most good players probably do this when they're not being lazy 18:38:37 dpeg: just remove monster respawning, period :) 18:39:25 kilobyte: if you were going to expose a function to lua with the sole purpose of crashing crawl, what module would you put it in? 18:40:38 Eronarn: yes, I considered that too. Wouldn't object, but for now (0.10) I really want to get rid of respawned jellies. 18:41:31 monster respawning is important... as I said earlier, it means you have awake monsters roaming a level 18:42:04 I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the reduced amount of Royal Jellies doe to Hive removal really makes zot stat drain nast 18:42:05 elliptic: but the monster shouldn't be a rat that just stops your travel. Or a jelly that makes sheepish players paranoid. 18:42:39 I don't care one way or the other about jelly respawning, and removing trivial monsters could be good if there is a reasonable way of deciding which those are 18:42:40 hmm, windows has a much better error message than zsh/Linux does for when you try to run a program that's still being linked ;-) 18:43:53 elliptic: players seem to think that Lair:2 stashin is a must. That's a case of paranoia plus group think, but the fact remains that some content is inside there. Not anymore if jellies don't respawn. So let's do that. I can compensate with vaults if need be. 18:44:14 (I would, however, have preferred if it had printed it on the console in this case rather than popping a dialog box...) 18:44:19 I'd still stash on lair:2 even without jelly respawning 18:44:37 and I strongly disagree that this is a matter of paranoia 18:44:50 -!- ais523\unfoog has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:01 it is a matter of there being no reason not to do so 18:45:41 elliptic: there is a difference between "do it as habit (no reason not to do so)" and "feel forced/compelled to do so (because there is a reason to do so)" 18:45:52 unless you mean to remove all respawning of monsters that pick up or use items (I'm thinking of all the wand-users and potion-drinkers), stashing on lair:2 will be optimal 18:46:04 jellies are just one worry 18:48:51 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:52:11 dpeg: if you want a more effective/radical solution to the stashing issue, what about making monsters never pick up or destroy items that you drop? 18:52:31 they are "stashed" and the monsters can't find them, say 18:53:36 that's actually probably less radical (in gameplay terms) than stopping respawning of intelligent monsters/jellies 18:53:57 it would have the side effect of fixing a lot of weird exploits that involve dropping items for monsters, too 18:54:25 like, chei chars dropping potions of speed in front of uniques so that they can slouch them more effectively 18:55:15 <|amethyst> that encourages picking up and dropping every weapon etc you come across 18:55:41 <|amethyst> you could make standing on it do the same 18:55:47 <|amethyst> without spending a turn I mean 18:56:00 |amethyst: I'd do it so that items are automatically stashed when you walk over them, probably... though that might not be enough 18:56:09 <|amethyst> yeah 18:56:11 elliptic: sounds good as well -- but consistency: jellies would slurp over one item but not another 18:56:12 it's a good start 18:56:29 maybe jellies are picky eaters and don't want to eat things with your germs on it... 18:56:33 it would take some work to make it sensible 18:56:38 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:56:47 evilmike: the items with your germs on them are hidden under the floor 18:58:29 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 18:59:12 !seen rax 18:59:12 I last saw rax at Thu Oct 27 15:44:17 2011 UTC (4d 8h 14m 55s ago) saying I think this is the wrong channel. :) on ##crawl-dev. 19:00:06 What up?\ 19:01:40 rax: hey, I think CAO's trunk hasn't been autoupdating for a while 19:02:21 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 19:03:55 <|amethyst> how about non-jiyva jellies only eat items when you are in los? 19:04:02 <|amethyst> but then they eat even stashes 19:04:27 you'd lose the annoying, but amusing element of vault:8 where a shapeshifter starts eating one of the loot vaults 19:04:41 <|amethyst> only eat stashes when you are in LOS then 19:05:01 |amethyst: the feeling of urgency when you get "You hear a slurping sound." has to be preserved. 19:05:27 |amethyst: that could work but I think it's better if there is one simple rule that can be stated in just a few words 19:05:54 the reason is to stop players from being motivated to stash on "safe" levels, right? The best way is to do it in a way where you can clearly communicate to them, "stashing on every level is safe" 19:06:01 without any "except in cases where..." clauses 19:06:16 <|amethyst> "monsters can only affect items you've touched when you are in LOS"? 19:06:55 I think you meant "eat" 19:07:12 well it also applies to orcs stealing all your wands, and stuff like that 19:07:16 still, what's to stop the jelly (or orc or whatever) from happening to be on your stash when you come by? 19:07:39 elliptic: Well let's see if I can figure out why. 19:09:34 the most recent commit on CAO trunk is dated Oct 16... is that approximately when there was the trouble with your root partition running out of memory? 19:09:42 <|amethyst> elliptic: so it encourages visiting stashes less with the rare threat of item loss... is that a bad thing? 19:10:08 |amethyst: well, the point is that it would still be (very slightly) safer to stash somewhere like lair:2 19:10:13 <|amethyst> hm 19:10:47 Hrm, I see how to do it but I don't see how to automate it. 19:11:24 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:11:43 I will kick it off and then look around more. 19:11:57 rax: thanks! 19:17:57 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 19:22:02 why are these messages that start with inventory letters getting capitalized? 19:25:15 -!- Ashmodai has joined ##crawl-dev 19:25:22 elliptic: regarding jellies, has anyone proposed to make jellies unable to eat things that are on top of staircases? 19:25:56 that would make any staircase a great place to stash 19:28:47 xiberia: I was thinking about that, but again the problem is that a jelly is just one of many worries 19:29:08 an orc could come and take a wand or potion and use it when it sees you 19:29:25 you could make all items on stairs immune to all monsters, I guess 19:29:35 elliptic: personally i could accept that risk 19:29:49 places like lair would still be a safe stash for usable things 19:30:02 I think it wouldn't be great because people would waste a lot of time bringing items to stairs 19:30:07 * SamB doesn't like to stash on staircases because it makes them hard to spot 19:30:10 even if that doesn't actually make much sense 19:30:55 maybe some kind of "sanctuary" item that you could drop in your stash 19:31:06 though, perhaps that could turn scummy 19:31:08 Xiberia: no 19:31:18 stairs I can live with, metaitems not 19:31:51 what about monsters shying away from some altar vaults 19:31:56 like the later zin/tso ones 19:32:12 abuse potential, also luring across the whole level: no 19:32:25 Xiberia: call it "elbereth" 19:32:29 evil monsters defecate on TSO altars 19:32:37 hiii 19:32:38 dpeg: what i mean is that they can -follow- you there 19:32:44 but they don't go there without you around 19:32:55 due: Hi! 19:34:20 you used to be able to get elbereth-like sanctuary squares in the abyss 19:34:24 this might not be possible in the new abyss 19:36:58 GreatZebu added a patch for an implementable I made just some hours ago (inscriptions for uniques' items). Can someone review/push? 19:37:44 evilmike: I thin kthat had something to do with random fprop'ing. 19:43:30 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1634-g0dfbe3a (32) 19:46:18 In theory we should have a new trunk build on CAO. No idea how to automate it yet other than making my own cronjob, which I will do if I don't find something obvious later; right now I am finishing homework though. ;) 19:46:23 ...oh hey Henzell mentioned it. 19:46:25 Thanks, Henzell! 19:53:12 he always does 19:54:53 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:08 03kilobyte * rd17453a85761 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (8 files in 2 dirs): Recompress imp tiles. Up to 10x! 20:34:54 too bad that doesn't make the repository smaller :-( 20:36:42 yeah, that's why I do this only for big differences 20:42:08 03SamB 07w32c-crash-better * ra06a4a0997da 10/crawl-ref/source/ (AppHdr.h crash-u.cc dbg-asrt.cc main.cc): Windows (MinGW): Do crash dumps, same as on *nix. 20:42:59 if you know how to make crawl crash at will, I'd be happy if you'd try this new branch 20:47:01 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 20:48:55 kilobyte: I made crawl stop tromping all over scrollback on the Windows Console, too 20:49:38 doesn't even compile 20:49:40 it was necessary in order to render direct-to-console crash dumps readable 20:49:47 oh darnit 20:50:20 what did you try it on ? 20:50:57 (this is why I put it in a branch) 20:52:14 kilobyte: on what platform is it failing to compile ? 20:55:42 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:03:23 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:09 03dolorous * r6ea702417e5d 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation-data.h: Add wording fix. 21:04:26 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:08:06 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:10:31 -!- mikee_ is now known as minqmay 21:12:54 !tell kilobyte Where does it not compile? Linux/MinGW/Cygwin/MSVC? (What version?) Tiles/Console? What is the error? 21:12:54 SamB: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 21:15:36 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:16:33 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 21:16:59 -!- alefury_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:40 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:20:07 -!- medgno has joined ##crawl-dev 21:29:32 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:32:20 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:33:46 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:52:08 -!- HangedMan is now known as Wensley 21:52:19 -!- Wensley is now known as HangedMan 22:02:58 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:03:25 !tell kilobyte oh, nevermind! I had forgotten to pull that commit to my Debian box... 22:03:25 SamB: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 22:04:16 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:12:11 03SamB 07w32c-crash-better * r7d2e81189280 10/crawl-ref/source/AppHdr.h: Fix obvious cut & paste error which broke the *nix build. 22:16:21 crash-better? 22:21:34 <|amethyst> rawrmage: crash dumps on w32 22:21:49 ahh 22:23:43 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:39:38 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 22:41:31 hi 22:51:46 hmm 22:51:57 hm? 22:52:03 someone definitely seems to have recently done something odd 22:52:19 what's the consequence? 22:52:36 H - an uncursed dagger (weapon) 22:52:36 _B - an uncursed dagger (weapon); H - a +0 robe (worn) 22:52:36 _ 22:52:56 those are supposed to be lowercase letters 22:53:10 oops! 22:53:32 what, was it you? 22:54:00 no 22:54:07 I haven't touched the codebase in a few weeks 22:54:44 the way you said "oops!", I wasn't sure you hadn't suddenly realized that some change you had made caused that ;-) 22:55:23 I only break code bases I get paid to break. 22:56:44 is that, like, a superpower ? 23:00:02 sort of? 23:00:11 * bmh checked in 5 minutes before he left today 23:00:21 <|amethyst> SamB: that was a problem in Cryptic's branch 23:00:39 oh, right 23:00:53 I guess I'm still playing that 23:01:22 even though I've switched back & forth between master and my branch a couple times since 23:02:10 ... because I didn't finish building since 23:02:20 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:02:53 -!- Brannock has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:02:56 on the Debian box I actually use to play 23:03:06 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:03:08 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 23:03:33 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 23:12:00 -!- minqmay has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:23:07 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 23:27:58 -!- medgno has quit [Quit: Quitting] 23:48:02 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:49:33 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev