00:02:54 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1583-g5c3b075 (32) 00:14:25 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 00:16:31 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1583-g5c3b075 00:26:25 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 00:36:33 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:54:08 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:01:15 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 01:02:22 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:20:10 moin 01:24:34 I'm pretty surprised that I've seen multiple people say that Mi is not a suitable replacement for MD for them because they can't wear helmets 01:25:13 it makes me wonder whether armour mechanics are unclear and people think the difference between a helmet and a hat or cap is larger than it is 01:26:02 there isn't a large difference? 01:26:43 1 AC and different brands (someone mentioned sInv) 01:26:51 Maybe it's really more of a flavour thing. 01:26:59 what about max enchant ? 01:27:16 is that the same, or different? 01:27:17 Amounts to 1 AC, helmets and caps are both max +2. 01:27:26 (the difference amounts to 1 AC) 01:30:19 that 1 AC does get multiplied by armour skill, which brings it to 2 AC with really high armour skill 01:30:44 and I guess dwarves could luck into a dwarven helmet for another 0.5 AC or something 01:31:06 but I wonder whether people think that helmets help GDR or something 01:31:25 (they also might not know that GDR exists and think that helmets are just as important as plate mail) 01:32:12 I think most of the concern about that comes from the restriction making your overall selection smaller... people are worried about missing out on potential good helmets 01:32:32 but it could be that people are simply unaware of the tiny difference in ac 01:33:34 the planned UC changes (making auxes depend on stats rather than UC skill) will be a minotaur buff, I guess, and maybe make people value those horns more 01:33:58 (I should actually work on coding those UC changes sometime) 01:35:38 Hmm, the automatic border settings for tiles seem to have been broken in af4fe25, and several tiles were left borderless in-game. That probably prompted roctavian to submit bordered tiles.. 01:37:51 I'm also a bit surprised by how prevalent the word "gimmick" is in these discussions 01:43:06 "Gimmick" seems to be the gimmick of the comments, yeah. ;) 01:43:49 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:43:58 It seems like the automatic bordering handles tiles with borders intelligently, i.e. it doesn't add double-bordering. 01:47:02 I've also falsely assumed that it adds borders beyond 32x32.. troll tiles need fixing. 01:52:16 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 02:10:10 Heh, I went through the generated tiles, and there's a pageful of small fixes to be made. 02:10:40 Mainly the pic cutting off at the edge of tile. 02:11:45 But yeah, no double borders unless the handmade border wasn' 02:11:48 t truly black. 02:12:20 Pan Lords have sInv despite no indication in description (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4828) by Dingo 02:17:22 show the item's name if you're throwing stuff at yourself (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4829) by toidinamai 02:32:30 -!- evilmike is now known as Sequell 02:32:41 -!- Sequell is now known as evilmike 02:42:49 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:44:48 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:44:51 -!- Wensley_ is now known as Wensley 02:47:27 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:49:23 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 02:50:47 -!- varmin has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:50:48 -!- greensnark has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:53:15 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:58:38 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:59:20 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:02:44 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 03:07:17 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:07:34 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 03:23:29 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 03:39:23 HAHAH. 03:39:26 Oh it's hiiilarious. 03:54:10 due: ? 04:04:33 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:23:44 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:23:50 -!- jarpiain has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:37:35 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 04:40:26 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:53:20 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:55:03 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 04:55:29 -!- Pingas has quit [Client Quit] 04:55:49 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 05:00:03 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1583-g5c3b075 05:05:05 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:14:50 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 05:18:16 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:37:56 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 05:38:11 Hi 05:38:13 !seen Napkin 05:38:13 I last saw Napkin at Tue Oct 25 16:51:53 2011 UTC (3d 17h 46m 20s ago) saying well, thats the fun about generic accounts.. the finger pointing! ;> on ##crawl-dev. 05:38:14 Sorry dpeg, I haven't seen Napkin. 05:38:35 hey, stereo 05:49:18 hiya 05:49:37 dpeg: the hordes are still screaming for dwarf blood :0 05:58:22 simple solution - rename Minotaurs Mountain Dwarfs :) 05:58:50 Alternatively: rename Deep Dwarves and claim you got a C&D against using the name "dwarf" :) 06:00:20 damn litigious medieval-era Vikings 06:03:09 with the mundane armour overhaul idea, I've been thinking about armour types we have 06:03:13 due: seems like a reinforcing thing 06:03:33 the big problem is "plate mail" 06:03:34 kilobyte: Is that idea on the wiki? 06:03:43 due: they think that everybody is in favour because ten or so guys take turns in screaming 06:03:47 kilobyte: what is it? 06:04:09 note that "plate mail", "splint mail" and "banded mail" are synonyms -- exact in the two first cases, rough for the last 06:04:34 (there was no real historic "banded mail", it's a D&D invention) 06:04:38 kilobyte: no problem with reducing the number of types 06:04:49 hey, kilobyte did some investigation 06:05:04 merging split and banded sounds obvious... but the plate is an issue 06:05:06 kilobyte: I always thought banded mail was something like samurai armour 06:06:03 ghallberg: that's laminar (also Roman type) 06:06:04 wikipedia makes a distinction between plate and splint at least. 06:06:08 kilobyte: mmk 06:06:16 ghallberg: plate ARMOUR vs plate MAIL 06:06:24 hmm well yeah 06:06:35 Well, from what little I know there's "chain" which is pretty flexible but not as good as small plates or bamboo sheets or similar over leather (less manouverable, but heavier duty) 06:06:41 kilobyte: what is the issue with plate? 06:06:43 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:06:43 the first is the solid type, the latter are thin plates joined with rings 06:06:54 small plates are known as splint or plate mail 06:06:57 then there's solid plate 06:07:04 well merge splint and banded, rename plate to plate armour? 06:07:09 which is the classic knight style breastplate, arms and so on 06:07:18 I've looked at where Crawl's armour come from 06:07:32 ghallberg: maybe "solid plate"? 06:07:38 phyphor: yeah 06:07:40 they're straight from NetHack, that's straight from Rogue, and that in turn is straight from then-D&D 06:08:03 if you wanted there's rings on leather which is below chain 06:08:08 fixed in AD&D 3, they have "full plate" now 06:08:20 so ring mail, chain, splint, solid/full plate 06:08:55 (honestly, you only really need 3 "metal" armours) 06:08:56 (and "half plate", but they somehow take only 1 AC while real half plates had full AC from the front and 0 from the back) 06:09:28 the thing is not as clear-cut, though 06:09:31 That said there are two types of leather armour 06:09:56 real full plates were known since ~5th century BC, but saw almost no use, mostly due to cost 06:10:07 there's thin leather which is like a tunic or jacket and there's full on leather armour which is like plate but made of leather 06:10:37 only in 1400s the technology advanced so far you could get decent plate cheaply -- so they experimented with improvements like articulated joints 06:10:42 phyphor: also studded versions? 06:11:05 so having "plate MAIL" as the best type makes sense if there's no splint 06:11:11 ghallberg: yes and no 06:11:19 however, I don't imagine plate mail made from crystal... 06:11:30 to be honest, from what I read up when I was into LARPing, it's mainly an RP distinction rather than real benefit 06:11:47 I see 06:11:55 phyphor: no, there's little in common between leather and studded leather 06:12:40 phyphor: leather = hard boiled animal hide. Studded leather = soft tanned hide, the protection comes from studs. 06:13:48 I may not remember correctly but I defer to the knowledgable person :) 06:14:39 not that knowledgeable -- I know quite a bit about weapons but I never was an armour buff :( 06:14:59 Well, most RP systems have studded > leather 06:15:19 heck, when I tried to make chainmail, I gave up after 10 or so rings :p (Requires insane finger strength and dexterity -- I couldn't get it right even with tools) 06:15:21 but from what I recall leather formed into tunics and tabards and so on gave some protection 06:15:31 but the thicker stuff was worked into pieces like you would plates 06:15:37 "bend it in fingers", my ass 06:16:00 the name is "curboilli" 06:16:05 I have chainmail at home 06:16:30 the best thing about wearing it is it doesn't feel heavy putting it on, but when it comes off it's bliss 06:16:43 oops sorry, the proper spelling is "cuir bouilli", at least in Wikipedia 06:16:51 phyphor: :p 06:17:19 I paid for it, but I made sure to buy it from someone in the UK 06:17:32 You cna buy cheap stuff but it's often made in foreign countries in sweat shops 06:17:36 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 06:17:57 but, err, that's probably off-topic 06:21:04 oh, looking at the tiles, they're plate armour rather than plate mail too 06:24:55 also, as a fatty, I imagined plate as ful plate not plate mail 06:24:56 it expained why large creatures couldn't wear it 06:24:56 but I can fit into x-mail (there's some give in you and the armour) 06:24:56 changing the tiles is always an option, though. 06:25:12 wehat's the intention of the change? 06:25:14 less armour types? 06:26:11 I'd choose between: plate mail -> full plate or plate armour, CPM -> crystal plate -- or, CPM->crystal plate (thin plates make no sense), keeping plate mail, removal of banded and splint 06:26:39 phyphor: theme and historical realism 06:26:51 no gameplay consideration for the plate mail stuff 06:27:15 gameplay changes are orthogonal -- there was a proposal last night to up medium armour by +1 base AC 06:27:29 which would merge banded with splint 06:27:50 or I think merging banded and splint is a given 06:28:16 I'm pretty much sold on the latter, yeah, and I've heard no voices of opposition 06:28:22 ANd then it's whether plate is kept as solid plae 06:28:24 or not 06:28:35 yeah, a theme issue 06:28:39 I'd suggest it would be nice to have it as a difference to CPM 06:28:50 (not purely, the second solution would have no splint) 06:30:54 back 06:30:54 why is cpm useful? 06:31:40 dpeg: Clearly we've lost it! ;) 06:32:08 * due goes to lose piano ;) 06:32:10 or, from a historic accuracy PoV, why have crystal plate? 06:32:44 A Wizard Did It 06:33:11 more seriously: in a word with magic and alternate materials, it can be expected they'd be used to make armour 06:34:03 "cheaply" for full plate is relative :) 06:34:18 for the same with modern materials: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Skin_%28body_armor%29 06:34:31 Then I think chain, and splint, and then plate or crystal plate as two varieties at the top end 06:35:50 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 06:37:51 hah, in dc-player.txt: 06:37:52 banded BANDED2 06:37:52 banded2 SPLINT 06:41:09 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Go on, try it!] 06:44:16 case ARM_SPLINT_MAIL: return TILEP_BODY_BANDED; 06:44:16 case ARM_BANDED_MAIL: return TILEP_BODY_BANDED; 06:45:51 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 06:49:15 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 06:51:53 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 06:55:29 kilobyte: another case where less is more, imo 07:03:34 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:16:41 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:17:48 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 07:20:09 would anyone miss ankuses if i removed them? the only purpose they serve seems to be as a special-case for ogres to start with sometimes 07:21:03 and they're barely at all differentiated from maces and flails (as in the two individual weapons, not the weapon class itself) 07:22:34 they're just a slightly faster flail or a slightly more damaging mace, and those two are similar enough already as it is 07:22:50 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 07:23:27 ankusses are a reminder of the better times, when ogres were mounted 07:26:01 MarvinPA: it is one of the very few features added by Nat/Peter (can never distinguish these two) 07:26:01 I think it was something about flavour, ogres riding elephants or so 07:27:20 MarvinPA: that said, I think we should compress the weapon list a little, too. Already made one step with katana removal. 07:27:24 hmm.. well mainly i'm just not that keen on the way ogres get a free weapon upgrade on character creation for no apparent reason (like merfolk used to do with tridents, although that was much more significant) 07:28:10 and i'd like to remove at least one weapon from the m&f class, yeah, there's just so many and lots are not very well differentiated 07:28:25 make it a unrandart, causing Y's to flee on sight 07:29:52 MarvinPA: but not eveningstar, pretty please 07:30:11 no, eveningstars are good :) 07:30:31 club/whip/hammer/mace/flail=ankus/morningstar/dwhip/spiked flail/dire flail[useless]/eveningstar/ogre clubs 07:31:19 i would probably get rid of one of flail/ankus ideally, i guess 07:31:22 differences between flails and ankuses: 1. two-handed for spriggans, 2. no brands, 3. 1 less delay (including mindelay) 07:31:39 <|amethyst> kilobyte: are great maces getting the axe^Wmace? 07:31:41 so removing flail and then making ankus a little more common so people actually see one occasionally could also work 07:31:54 |amethyst: err, and great maces 07:32:10 hard to explain what an ankus is, though 07:32:24 heck, on a MUD I coded for for many years, it was a spear 07:32:34 dire flails are actually pretty good early/mid-level weapons now, really 07:32:52 back later 07:32:53 low delay, pretty good damage 07:33:30 and no shield 07:34:20 can still be worth it, quarterstaves are great early and dire flails have the same min delay and +3 base damage on top of that 07:34:27 same base delay, rather 07:35:25 not much good once you get later in the game, certainly, but i think they have a use now at least 07:44:21 hammers: the only argument to keep them I've heard is Yiuf's cottage 07:44:49 ah yeah, hammers would be a good one to remove as well 07:44:55 and since I've put it there myself, with no reason other than a clouded mind, there is no explanation behind it 07:45:32 could remove hammers from random generation :P 07:45:42 (the "path of hammers" can be just a path of lajatangs, path of giant spiked clubs or a path of -5 animal skins) 07:45:45 yiuf could just get something else to indicate his craziness 07:46:44 make him an oka worshipper driven insane by animal skin gifts :P 07:46:54 that's be nice 07:47:01 and converted to the glory of xom 07:48:09 animal skins do sound like a perfectly good useless item for him though, yeah 07:48:37 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 07:52:46 so what's better? "plate armour" or "full plate"? 07:54:34 hmm, either sounds fine to me 07:54:47 is the plan to merge banded/splint mail and rename plate mail to one of those? 07:56:02 currently in my tree, merging the first two, not reusing "plate mail" since it'd cause confusion with current plate 07:57:35 ah yeah 08:16:53 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:18:03 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:20:43 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:25:06 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 08:57:02 kilobyte: full plate sounds better imo 08:57:22 Though it may be a bit wrong, since it doesn't include greaves, gauntlets, helm 09:05:07 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 09:09:29 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 09:15:49 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:15:53 so for flails/ankuses, is it worth keeping ankuses for the flavour and removing flails (would mean edmund needs a different weapon i guess)? or just remove ankuses? 09:20:31 I would remove ankuses before flails 09:20:56 huhm. plural of ankus can also be 'ankus' 09:21:40 you could always create some sort of ankus-wielding new unique for the Lair, commanding a herd of elephants 09:21:48 an ankus is, after all, an elephant goad 09:44:10 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:46:49 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:47:02 kilobyte: "solid plate" rather than "full plate" perhaps? 09:47:13 that indicates it's a single piece of inflexible metal rather than banded plints 09:51:36 rigid platemail? 09:52:06 Just go for full plate. 09:53:27 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 09:53:59 MarvinPA: +1 for no ankuses and keeping flails 09:55:03 however, I wonder, what's the benefit in removing weapon types just to bring them back as fixedarts? I kind of fail to see any loss in an additional weapon type, an enum, name, tile and desc. 09:55:19 it would be just as good to disable generation in normal cases 09:56:11 (banded mail wouldn't make a good fixedart and has no real interesting qualities... an exotic weapon does, at least IMO)] 09:56:50 this is true, maybe just disabling generation and leaving it in for a potential ogre unique of some description would be best 09:57:05 well, not necessarily an ogre i guess, but that's what they seem linked to most 09:58:24 there needs to exist an ogre unique other than erolcha anyway! 10:10:40 mmm, seems to be a lot of support for getting rid of one of the elves on the cdo comments! 10:13:51 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:14:55 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:15:35 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:19:05 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:26:56 03kilobyte * raafe93817e9f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (19 files in 5 dirs): Rename "crystal plate mail" to "crystal plate". 10:27:06 03kilobyte * rb386c4e3653f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (28 files in 8 dirs): Rename "plate mail" to "plate armour". 10:27:06 03kilobyte * r5cdff1431637 10/crawl-ref/source/itemprop.cc: Cut the chance for ankuses by 10. 10:27:06 03kilobyte * r2601dec0d15a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (14 files in 5 dirs): Improve medium armour, remove banded mails. 10:27:07 03kilobyte * r21b08dbf3837 10/crawl-ref/source/makeitem.cc: Don't spawn hammers naturally. 10:38:13 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:38:53 -!- MarvinPA has quit [] 10:38:58 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 10:56:04 Ragdoll (L26 GhBe) ASSERT(x >= 1 && x <= sz.x) in 'libutil.cc' at line 941 failed. (Vault:7) 10:56:16 Ragdoll (L26 GhBe) ASSERT(x >= 1 && x <= sz.x) in 'libutil.cc' at line 941 failed. (Vault:7) 11:02:11 what was the command to get more detailed crash reports? 11:02:22 !crash 11:03:12 !lm Ragdoll crash -log 11:03:43 hrm, Sequell isn't here? 11:03:45 of course assuming sequell is here. 11:07:21 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 11:10:13 as of last night, sequell was rebuilding the database, I think 11:10:29 not sure how long that takes 11:16:54 by the way, is that crash a known crash? you can create it by adding 'message_colour = mute:.*' in your rcfile, then write a message/search with about 15 letters 11:19:28 doesn't look like it 11:19:37 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:27:20 [ZotDef]Unable to place Igancio, crashes game (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4831) by Ragdoll 11:27:20 [ZotDef] Crashes when summoning in treasure vaults (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4830) by Ragdoll 11:27:59 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 11:29:42 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:33:04 DIonized the Ruinous (L5 DECj) (D:3) 11:39:56 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:40:06 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 11:43:09 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:18:43 ??cao 12:18:44 cao[1/1]: Main Crawl server, located in Boston, MA. USA, http://crawl.akrasiac.org/ or crawl.akrasiac.org ssh port 22 ssh-username:joshua ssh-password: joshua. Runs the latest stable release, trunk, Zot Defense, and robotfindskitten. Further information on the website and ??putty entries for Windows users. Also see http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/howto 12:38:45 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 12:40:32 03SamB * r89d469a9f182 10/crawl-ref/source/Makefile: Rename rltile-build target to build-rltiles, to match clean-rltiles. 12:46:15 -!- varmin has joined ##crawl-dev 12:46:55 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:58:10 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:00:40 -!- Torokasi has quit [Quit: Bang.] 13:00:45 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 13:13:49 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:19:00 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 13:24:56 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 13:49:19 Place: An Ice_cave 13:50:40 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 14:07:33 !tell greensnark Thanks for looking at my pull request! It looks like currently the database is a little messed up though... webtiles games from after the "tiles" field was introduced until a couple days ago don't seem to be in the sequell database at all. 14:07:34 elliptic: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 14:07:36 Unable to add your message to greensnark's queue, sorry! 14:09:02 hi SamB_Henzell 14:10:09 -!- pointless_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:23:33 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:24:55 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:27:53 -!- Brannock_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:29:09 !tell greensnark Oh, it looks like the database is actually missing all cdo games in that time interval. 14:29:09 elliptic: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 14:29:10 Unable to add your message to greensnark's queue, sorry! 14:29:41 what's going on here.. 14:29:50 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:30:26 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 14:30:59 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 14:31:00 hi 14:31:34 greetings 14:32:33 Those players have so much time on their hands. And I know, because I have to approve of all their ramblings before they go public. 14:33:11 heh 14:33:20 dpeg: huh? 14:33:27 you should approve comments based on how many times they use the word "gimmicky" 14:33:39 MarvinPA: more uses are better or worse? 14:33:44 who knows! 14:34:05 0-1 uses = ok, 5-* also = ok 14:34:13 2-4 = permaban 14:34:25 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 14:34:30 MarvinPA: <3 14:35:00 ghallberg: you've seen the pile of comments on the Gimli blog entry? 14:35:15 dpeg: Nah, I'm looking now. 14:35:23 Too many info channels! 14:35:39 i never realized people loved MD this much 14:35:55 some of it is sane, most of it is just sadness about loss of a family member, some are profane and there even some attack thrown at me :) 14:36:37 isn't the internet a wonderful thing :P 14:36:43 Xiberia: it is self-reinforcing, I am sure. Players thinking they ride the wave etc. If you compare with the first page of the forum thread, that gives a completely different picture: almost everyone agreed! 14:37:14 MarvinPA: I love the "from now it is definitely going downhill" comments, followed by "I'll quit". 14:37:46 I've only gotten through the first comment, that one was well thought out 14:37:57 I tend to think those people are very young, that makes it easier for me. 14:38:14 ghallberg: only because someone deleted the very first one, which started with "Fuck you" :) 14:38:33 Heh, that much is obvious now that I've gotten to the rest :P 14:38:53 Took a while to get through your post and the first wall of textish comment 14:41:46 just give minotaurs that apparently crucial +3 armour apt 14:42:19 Xiberia: no way. I have children, you cannot cave in at this point. Will only make matters worse in the long run. 14:42:28 people dislike different things about minotaurs anyway, it seems 14:42:34 Am I the only one who would find it hilarious to rename chunks to just "chunk of foo" instead of chunk of foo flesh" 14:42:37 ? 14:42:47 some people think +2 armour isn't sufficient, some people hate horns, some people love dwarves, etc 14:43:04 caving in to one of those groups won't really help matters 14:43:08 yes 14:43:20 ghallberg: I don't care, but non-native speaker etc. 14:43:36 I kind of agree with "simple choice for new players" 14:43:43 ghallberg: but Mi is just that! 14:43:55 dpeg: But it's not as obvious 14:43:56 The old tutorial had MiBe, for example. 14:44:00 apparently new players are incapable of picking a race that isn't an obvious fantasy trope 14:44:00 it's not as in your face obvious as MD is 14:44:07 (according to all the non-new players who are commenting) 14:44:26 I absolutely don't understand why they call minotaurs silly. From where I stand, the minotaur is as classical as the centaur, the hydra etc. 14:44:28 personally i would think new players probably aren't so stupid that they can't try things for themselves 14:44:40 dpeg: Minotaurs are awesome. 14:45:10 if any race is silly it's high elves 14:45:15 spot on trope 14:45:38 yup, and i would love to remove them :P 14:45:41 The strongest argument against Mi was put forward by galehar (alone): in the mythos, there was exactly one minotaur, not a species of them. 14:45:53 it sounds like the comments on the blog agree with me also! 14:46:13 MarvinPA: you've seen the comments "if you don't like the trope, then why don't you remove HE?" Didn't reply, for fear of the last shreds of sanity and dignity. 14:46:17 hehe 14:46:22 heh yeah, exactly :P 14:46:35 removing HE isn't a bad idea, yeah 14:47:02 wasn't removing MD, HE and Ha the plan anyway? 14:47:05 though the elves are decently differentiated for gameplay purposes 14:47:13 there wasn't really a plan, no 14:47:19 There's also another metareason for removing content occasionally: shows (to players and ourselves) that we're at least trying to fight featuritis. 14:47:58 FR: phase elves 14:48:13 elliptic: the elves themselves are differentiated but i don't feel like HE is well-differentiated from all the other good hybrid races 14:48:35 like Mf, Ke, Na, Dr 14:48:38 Mf does the hybrid thing better most of the time 14:48:40 marvinpa: such as what? I've heard people call HE and Mf really similar but I think they are crazy 14:48:50 due to comparable apts and a bigger hp pool 14:49:17 HE has like twice the int as Mf, doesn't have water stuff, and the apts look quite different 14:49:25 I just don't understand 14:49:48 elliptic: depends on how much detail you put into the "are similar". 14:50:02 i just feel like if i ever want to play a conj/melee hybrid there's a ton of other races that do it more interestingly, likewise for crusadery hybrids 14:50:03 dpeg: well, they don't feel similar when I play them 14:50:19 HE feels most similar to Dg to me, really 14:50:28 ah yeah, Dg as well 14:51:26 No elves or dwarves, only man 14:51:32 anyway i don't feel that strongly about it, i just feel like they would fit onto the chopping block quite nicely at some point in the future :P 14:51:36 sure 14:51:41 This reminds me... mumra has a working version of new DG out there. "All" it needs is content (monster definitions, speech). I will try to get DG into 0.10 if I can. But I'd appreciate any help. Anyone out there? 14:51:47 maybe HE could fill the medium armour hybrid niche? 14:51:52 Mf don't really do that well 14:52:05 the imbalance of having three different elves bothers me a lot more than HE being too similar to other races 14:52:13 And I don't dare asking Thasero about Vehumet patch anymore :( 14:52:14 yeah 14:52:24 aw :( 14:52:41 elliptic: and the other two elf types are much more interesting to me: colourless and degenerated :) 14:52:52 Does anyone know Thasero from another channel? 14:53:08 I don't really like playing SE but they are certainly more interesting, yeah 14:53:19 i think he posts on tavern occasionally, not sure that i've seen him on irc though 14:53:29 MarvinPA: yes, he posted recently. 14:53:34 !seen thasero 14:53:35 Sorry elliptic, I haven't seen thasero. 14:53:35 Sorry elliptic, I haven't seen thasero. 14:57:15 oh and i took a look at the golems patch on mantis, incidentally 14:57:34 MarvinPA: hope? 14:57:51 well, i'm still not really sure what the best thing to do with them would be 14:59:06 but i merged it locally and left out the food mechanisms 14:59:23 to make it a bit easier to work with 15:00:31 which makes them sort of like ogres but slow and with resistances for being nonliving :P 15:01:52 MarvinPA: you think it could be fun? 15:04:00 i feel like it could be, yeah... they'd probably be quite hard i like the idea of them being big and slow but good with armour and okay at spellcasting 15:04:06 but i like the idea* 15:04:10 give high elves negative saprovore 15:04:34 also nerf their casting apts a bit, they're better than they need to be 15:06:33 also i think i mentioned this earlier, but let them eat artifacts to change their magical nature 15:08:55 the number of people saying that we are removing stuff from crawl purely because it is too popular is sort of disturbing 15:09:08 elliptic: but it is plain wrong 15:09:10 yes 15:09:13 I know :) 15:09:18 we never cared about win rates or playing rates 15:09:19 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 15:09:22 well, the stuff that isn't popular, nobody cares if it gets removed :P 15:10:23 Eronarn: well, some care. "Bbbbut (Common) Elf was my favourite species! I got my first win on a rainy day in 1967 with one." Not so many of those, of course. 15:11:12 dpeg: yes, only the nobodies who care 15:11:49 -!- Brannock_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:11:54 btw, people were earlier talking about crawl not having a fiery player race. reminder that lava orcs 15:13:57 elliptic: I saw mention that Mi + hat looks silly. Perhaps we can do something about that. 15:14:16 "looks" as in tiles? 15:14:19 sure 15:14:27 megahats 15:14:35 I can't comment on that then :) 15:15:06 I do think that changing things so that "wizard hat" isn't the most common type of hat that a minotaur can wear might be good though 15:15:18 *cough* silly hat patch 15:15:45 I was just thinking of shifting most of the wizard hat generation to caps :P 15:15:52 "helmet with holes for horns to go through" 15:16:05 I put on my robe and wizard hat 15:16:06 elliptic: but silly hatsss 15:16:16 heh, I wondered if we could make "horned helmet" to be wearable by horned guys. That's nonsense, of course, but I like that kind of nonsense. (No tricks on the player, due to item coloring.) 15:16:19 we could give them santa hats for christmas 15:16:21 ais523: yes, or that 15:16:46 could do seasonal tiles theme packs 15:16:48 dpeg: I think people will like horns better once I get around to making them depend on stats rather than UC skill 15:17:18 let people do a running charge attack with horns 15:17:24 ooh, you're doing that for auxes? 15:17:30 people would forget about md in a day 15:17:33 elliptic: hey, good! 15:17:55 Wensley: and knockback kicks for hooves! 15:18:05 Humm, random idea from the MD-thread. 15:18:12 marvinpa: that's part the plan that was decided a month or so ago... I haven't gotten to coding it yet, but it is near the top of my list now 15:18:18 problem with knockback is that it is not universally good 15:18:20 Let humans get a bonus when using *any* racial items? 15:18:23 ah, nice 15:18:32 introduce new racial items 15:18:38 dpeg: yes, but we already have it in a few places - that's a problem wherever it's used and should be solved globally 15:18:40 spriggish giant spiked club 15:18:43 * dpeg probably has to push DG alone into 0.10. 15:18:52 Eronarn: where is knockback used? 15:19:01 dpeg: dragon form, grey drac tail attack 15:19:12 grey drac tail can trample? 15:19:12 dpeg: I'm doing 150% at Uni this semester, can't promise any help :( 15:19:16 elliptic: in water, yes 15:19:21 "You see a twig. (Feline giant spiked club.)" 15:19:22 trample is a little different from knockback, anyway 15:19:30 elliptic: only in deep water, i think 15:19:32 since it moves you also 15:19:35 ghallberg: no problem :) 15:19:36 so it doesn't happen very often at all 15:19:42 also that's really weird about grey drac tail 15:19:43 trample is okay 15:19:46 yes, it is 15:19:56 but you're right, it's trample not kb for both 15:20:15 knockback is something you may or may not want -- no idea how to implement that in a good way 15:20:29 and that also goes for monsters 15:20:41 monsters should probably always KB if they're capable of doing so at all 15:20:44 even if it would be bad for them 15:20:47 dpeg: shift/ctrl move 15:20:53 knockback is actually pretty bad a lot of the time... trample is bad sometimes, but not nearly as often, and dragon form having it seems fine to me 15:21:01 ais523: this makes sense for unintelligent ones, but for some, they might want to sometimes hold off 15:21:25 Eronarn: just look at Sigmund, he'd be about 10 times more dangerous if his AI did the most powerful things he could do all the time 15:21:28 elliptic: also, it is just a kind of tradeoff for dragon form, nothing to be worried about 15:21:31 the AI doesn't have to be consistently realistic 15:21:44 ais523: no, it cannot. Otherwise the player had no chance. 15:21:48 dpeg: yes, since you probably aren't running around in dragon form quite all the time 15:21:56 it is a choice you make 15:22:01 ais523: the AI already tries to not do certain things though 15:22:06 dpeg: that's my point; Sigmund is balanced by giving him a bad AI, so you can balance even other intelligent monsters the same way 15:22:12 by making them always KB even if it would hurt them 15:22:39 ais523: ok, so for monsters it may be acceptable, yes. 15:22:44 monsters figuring out whether they want to KB the player would be difficult anyway, yeah 15:23:13 and it is much more likely to be positive for them, because players can use ranged attacks even if they are in melee range 15:23:21 yeah, that's a separate issue - but it's at least conceivable that it could exist (and you can actually get the effect by having a ranged monster with a melee kb attack or the like) 15:23:24 the main reason why it wouldn't be good for players is against *taurs and such 15:24:01 don't cato have reach neck + kb tail right now? 15:26:12 Eronarn: nope, saving that for catlobe++ 15:42:41 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 15:53:23 -!- medgno has joined ##crawl-dev 16:00:03 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 16:07:05 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:17:11 -!- PerilChuck has joined ##crawl-dev 16:18:59 Chei followes get too many hell effects (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4832) by Happylisk 16:19:01 How hard would it be to make an application that could request a dump file from Crawl.exe with information on the current state of the current game? I am interested in developing an extension on my spare time for Crawl 16:20:12 I know Crawl has character dumping, if I could force that behavior from a third-party app (for parsing etc) then I would be able to accomplish what i'm looking to do 16:20:39 PerilChuck: what sort of extension? 16:21:09 Well is this even possible? 16:22:02 at the moment, I have no idea :P 16:22:11 there's certainly no precedent that I can think of 16:23:18 but if there's some sort of way you want to extend crawl to make it better, perhaps you could just submit a patch to put that functionality into the game itself 16:23:45 or a lua script 16:24:22 yeah, there's lua, but I've never used any lua so I'm not sure what sort of hooks exist 16:25:24 which is also why I asked what the extension was, so that someone who knows crawl's lua internals can tell you if there's a hook for it 16:25:45 for example, I'm guessing there's some subset of the character dump that you want? 16:26:41 -!- PerilChuck is now known as Eric_cc 16:26:49 there's a chance you'd also be able to get at information that doesn't even exist in a dump 16:27:31 ah, switching nick's, on a buddy's 16:32:20 -!- Eric_cc is now known as eric_cc 16:32:50 OK switched to my account from a friend's 16:33:33 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:34:31 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 16:35:46 Interesting 16:38:06 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:48:15 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:51:47 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 16:51:47 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:14 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 16:54:10 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 16:56:42 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:07:14 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07:40 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 17:27:44 eric_cc: so, unless you need to keep it a secret, telling us what sort of extension you want to make would probably help it get made :P 17:28:10 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:01 -!- Xiberia has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:39:46 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 17:43:07 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:43:31 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 17:47:36 -!- eric_cc has quit [Quit: If your not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space] 17:49:39 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:51:50 -!- MarvinPA__ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:52:12 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:54:08 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:54:17 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 17:54:40 Ha, revolutionary progress on the blog front! :) 17:55:42 how so? 17:56:30 HAH 17:56:40 Someone just called you extremely biased and against standard nodic fnatasy! 17:56:43 dpeg, my voice of reason <3 17:57:20 I guess I am extremely biased. 17:58:26 I don't think so. 17:58:27 -!- MarvinPA__ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:58:39 I've been wondering whether a blog entry would help. Not sure how many players (or devs :) realise that there is a connection between 'labyrinth', 'bazaar', 'ziggurat', 'Tomb' etc. 17:59:06 I wish I knew what this was referring to 17:59:18 Define connection :) 17:59:43 Because I presume you are referring to the tendency for these to be historically accurate as opposed to being folk-mythologically/popular-historically accurace. 18:00:12 labyrinth - Crete, ziggurat - Babylon/Assyria, tomb - (ancient) Egypt, with bazaars being inspired by that part of the world as well 18:00:22 Ahh. 18:00:39 I would hazard that Ziggurat is moer specificlaly Mesopotamian rather than Assyrian ;) 18:00:41 ancient civilisations, no fantasy rubbish :) 18:00:45 But yeah. 18:00:50 03MarvinPA * rb6a7af2f85f4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (initfile.cc newgame.cc ng-restr.cc): Don't start Ogres with ankuses instead of maces 18:00:54 due: yes, didn't bother to look it up 18:01:01 03MarvinPA * r0d624ea6801d 10/crawl-ref/source/decks.cc: Tweak Velocity card now that swiftfly don't combine for extra speed 18:01:01 03MarvinPA * r03fc88dfe2da 10/crawl-ref/source/art-func.h: Minor rewording of equip messages for the dragonskin cloak 18:01:01 03MarvinPA * r4f04187d42d5 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc: Make Berserkers start with a slightly more species-appropriate weapon 18:01:24 I really need to do an Egyptian temple ending for Crypt. 18:01:32 oh gods, yes 18:01:37 Actually... 18:01:46 Is Khufu in a crypt ending unnice? 18:01:57 he already spawns there somewhat regularly 18:01:58 not that I am aware of 18:02:25 :> 18:02:42 Oh man, I can even do the properly flavoured rooms! 18:03:09 We don't have a tile for dragonskin rcoat/ 18:03:14 Cloak, rather. 18:04:10 On the subject of flavour, crawl still is pretty D&D heavy, and still has one race which is directly lifted from D&D. The game does go a bit beyond generic fantasy, but I think the overall flavour of the game is still in that area 18:04:18 evilmike: Which one? 18:04:22 And yes, it is unfortunate. 18:04:23 Kenku 18:04:27 Ah, yes. 18:05:02 evilmike: sure, we inherited the game. There is no way to get rid of orcs, elves etc. but at least we can try to go for a bit of originality. 18:05:25 kenku in D&D are quite rare though 18:05:39 NH has tengu, not sure which one comes from where. 18:05:44 We can probably reflavour kenku. 18:05:46 our take on them isn't very different from D&D, but at least we make good use of them 18:05:47 Orcs are tolkein, elves at least have something to do with european folklore. Kenku are straight D&D though 18:05:50 tengu comes from japanese myth 18:05:50 tengu are japanese 18:06:01 Yeah. 18:06:11 could probably use some more non-western mythology, I really like the indian stuff we have 18:06:12 Damn you peaople for stealing my words :p 18:06:13 D&D probably introduced them into games. 18:06:38 el chupacabra 18:06:43 Wensley: like our nagas? :P 18:06:48 Eronarn: and rakshasa! 18:06:49 I think the current generic "green ork with tusks" (that crawl doesn't have, but that people imagine orcs as) actually comes from warhammer 18:06:58 evilmike: elves as used in these games are as far apart from the myths as MD :) 18:07:01 Our rakshasa and very much Indian :) 18:07:07 *arne't 18:07:22 what do crawl orcs look like? 18:07:28 aren't indian rakshasa illusionist tiger people? 18:07:33 they're brownish, at least in tiles 18:07:33 No. 18:07:35 is there a page or something that has all the tiles on? 18:07:39 due: did not know that 18:07:59 I have subverted that with Mara, hoowever. 18:08:33 They're definitely not tiger people, but they do illusion and shape-change. 18:08:36 evilmike: changing the flavour is no pressing task, but we should take opportunities when they present themselves, in my opinion. 18:09:00 add wendigos to crawl 18:09:24 dpeg: Well, we have the opportunity to tweak a lot of flavour currently -- with the rationale that MD was just the start of our "D&D purge". 18:09:31 Cf. D&D scare? 18:09:38 Red scare? 18:09:46 :D 18:10:06 Forgive me, I've been playing too much Twilight Struggle. 18:10:13 the board game? 18:10:25 Si. 18:10:28 There was an idea once to make one race for every letter. If you want to do a massive flavour overhaul, that might be an opportunity to rearrange the letters 18:10:45 Well, "play" is a misnomer. Imbibing large quantities of historically accurate back information until such a time as people /will play it with me/. 18:10:48 good luck coming up with something for X though 18:11:02 will there be something for 1 like with gods 18:11:14 It probably doesn't help that I've been raised on sagas (including all the Greek stuff) and only saw RPG games much later (board and computer) and was generally appalled by them. (Notable exception: Wizardry 7.) 18:11:14 Xomspawn 18:11:30 MarvinPA: good commits! 18:11:45 evilmike: one per letter is easier to achieve with gods 18:11:54 definitely 18:12:00 and more meaningful -- I still think of a spin-off where the gods are actors 18:12:25 "twilight of the gods" 18:12:48 :D 18:12:53 I think some of the blog comments have a point in that "generic fantasy" can guide players re: what a race actually does. This may be more of a problem with crawl overwhelming new players 18:13:01 We could rename kenku to garuda, but I thin kth elatter is more commonly known within fantasy circles. 18:13:12 evilmike: I am the one who asks for unlockables once a year :) 18:13:20 evilmike: xoctopodes 18:13:45 in my opinion unlockable stuff could work, as long as you make it so people upgrade from old versions start with everything unlocked 18:13:56 I dunno how feasable that is though 18:14:09 evilmike: also, I believe that if you know what a minotaur is, it should evoke the connotation "competent fighter". On the other hand, the original meaning of "dwarf" is "small person". 18:14:39 evilmike: my proposal is the mildest possible: you can unlock everything with a keypress/option. It is just to hide content for new players. 18:14:51 Yes, minotaur does convey that. I think the point isn't so much about myths though, but rather what other games do. 18:15:11 I may be odd in that direction, but it tickles my fancy if we do it differently 18:15:17 We are aiming to be less like other games. 18:15:44 Also, that is not so revolutionary. Japanese designers wouldn't even bother with all the heritage, just pick what they like. 18:16:14 evilmike: for X: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiphosurida 18:16:46 or just xiphodes if we want a dancing sword race 18:17:16 * dpeg would be happy if we'd just get a few more gods and species over the next year. 18:17:54 We could go with feng instead of kenku! 18:17:57 yesterday i was a bit bored and clumsily threw together an efreet race locally 18:18:11 does it have flame cloud trail :P 18:18:14 no races starting with "w", I notice 18:18:19 due: or just Corvids 18:18:19 it was pretty amusing but it overlaps with lava orcs so its not worth pursuing 18:18:20 evilmike: from SA? (SA is not readable since yesterday, no idea what they're raving about right now) 18:18:23 (hint: walrus) 18:18:34 evilmike: well, there are some pretty serious problems with LO 18:18:41 dpeg: that's what made me think about it 18:19:25 I did attempt the flame cloud trail (well, actually ring of flames) but its a bad idea for obvious reasons 18:19:34 elliptic: a lot of those are pretty easily fixable, though - i think the main outstanding problems are 1) beogh 2) tension calc 3) toning down the high temp stuff while having it still be fun 18:19:47 Also, karura. 18:19:58 Cursed weapon at Ashenzari altar is usually generated with a negative enchantment (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4833) by ion_frigate 18:20:19 eronarn: well, those are pretty serious :P it would be cool if those problems could be dealt with, but it doesn't seem that easy 18:20:21 Cursed implies neative enchantment upon generation. 18:20:25 I'm mainly worried about 2) 18:20:45 beogh doesn't seem that big of a problem, and 3) isn't too bad to do, really (it will already be made a lot less noticeable if 2) is fixed) 18:20:46 i think there's supposed to be a version of cursed that doesn't imply negative enchantment 18:20:53 dunno if that vault uses it though 18:20:55 or if it works 18:21:21 2) is just gonna be one of those things where you have to put in a ton of work but then you can use it elsewhere 18:21:48 well, not even a ton - there's room for quick tension fixes too (like the 1-10x instead of 1-2x range that i'd added on the server) 18:22:38 that and averaging tension over turns would solve a lot of the problems people ran into while playing LOs (though not all, like early ogres being insanely high tension) 18:23:05 eronarn: I'll probably continue to be very dubious about tension until someone actually makes it work 18:23:34 elliptic: it should probably be easier to do now that ash tiers exist 18:23:41 since some work was put into getting those reasonable 18:23:56 ash tiers have a lot of issues too, really :P 18:24:09 and just assigning numerical values to monsters isn't the main problem 18:26:31 -!- Sequell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:27:01 i'd love to work on LO some more but, unfortunately, grad school 18:27:02 far, far too busy 18:27:13 -!- greensnark has joined ##crawl-dev 18:27:41 elliptic: what are the issues with Ash tiers? 18:27:43 greensnark: hi! 18:27:46 greensnark: Ca va? 18:28:23 dpeg: just minor things really... like I think people have reported that zombies of a monster often show up as higher tier than the monster itself 18:28:37 elliptic: ah -- sounds strange 18:28:49 Hello 18:28:50 greensnark: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 18:28:53 !messages 18:28:53 (1/3) syraine said (15h 48m 7s ago): =____________________________________________= 18:28:54 No messages for greensnark. 18:29:26 For 0.10, constriction would help a lot. Oc is probably good enough to go in without it, but would be much better with. Also, it'd show that we take "combat moves" serious (it'd be number 1.5). 18:29:51 As it happens, there is a really detailed constriction proposal on the wiki =) 18:30:02 dpeg: the talk of ash tiers reminds me... how smart/stupid do we want the default autofight to be? 18:30:04 Sequell's db got a little messed up, I'm rebuilding it 18:30:08 It's going to take a while though 18:30:38 * due back. 18:30:47 I've been working on improvements to autofight for my own personal use (since the default autofight is too stupid for me), and I could put some of them in the default autofight 18:30:49 greensnark: awesome 18:30:59 elliptic: I cannot say, I never use autofight 18:31:06 elliptic: sounds good 18:31:29 what's the current oc mut set? forget if i sent in a patch to modify it 18:31:30 (for instance, it prioritizes which monsters to attack first using ash tiers) 18:31:37 dpeg: I think the best solution for kenku is to rename then to tnegu. 18:31:41 *tengu 18:31:49 due: ok 18:32:05 dpeg: Because our kenku are alrady vastly different from D&D kenku (the ability to fly). 18:32:09 Eronarn: huh, cannot check from here. Includes some AC at start, irrc. 18:32:44 rename merfolk to kappa 18:32:51 japanese folklore all around 18:32:56 Er, our merfolk aere nothing like kappa. 18:33:19 aren't kappa humanoids with turtle shells? 18:33:33 Yes? 18:33:45 Our merfolk are humanoid until they enter water, in which case they have tails instead of legs. 18:33:49 This is nothing like kappa. 18:33:55 However, our kenku are based on tengu. 18:35:21 -!- syllogism has quit [] 18:35:28 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:35:58 ah 18:36:00 they do still have beaks 18:36:07 they should definitely lose that 18:36:19 i always thought kenkus were completely unique to crawl 18:36:24 Nope. 18:36:38 shows what i know about d&d! 18:36:54 Eronarn: Some tengu had eaks. 18:36:58 ... beaks. 18:37:00 due: i mean octos 18:37:03 perhaps beogh would give LO followers fire immunity, but still let them be set on fire so that you could have perpetually flaming orc knights 18:37:12 Eronarn: oh 18:37:18 right now they get two aux attacks and +1 AC and stealth 18:37:30 Wensley: hell knights!? 18:37:34 the +1 AC is new, so the beak can go, imo 18:37:46 Xiberia: current hell knights are racist, they only allow humans 18:37:52 (actually the stealth is new too, and could stand be toned down a bit, based on my experience with them) 18:37:55 this is true 18:38:11 and by 'new' i just mean the last change to their muts, apparently 18:44:22 I think the beak is very flavourful 18:45:28 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:45:52 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:03 dpeg: it could be tied to constriction, and part of why they're better at it: they don't peck normally, but do take bites out of you while grappling you 18:50:10 what happens with constriction+sticky flame? 18:51:01 Alas, Egyptian temples don't look that great on paper. 18:52:41 due: how about an egyptian-themed alternate tomb map where the first floor is a desert with the top of a pyramid in the center and you have to descend into it 18:53:07 Wensley: well, yes 18:53:13 Wensley: but I'm doing a Crypt end vault 18:56:34 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:59:25 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:09:10 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14:37 Direct contact should spread sticky flame 19:14:52 either by an enemy attacking you unarmed or you attacking the enemy unarmed 19:14:55 try casting it on a herd of sheep 19:15:00 oh lord. 19:15:04 I forgot about that 19:15:16 I remember abusing 0.6 sticky flame :B 19:41:25 hm 19:41:38 Is a DD's damage shaving not supposed to be applied to Makhleb's abilities? 19:41:43 correct 19:41:54 Thought so 19:42:00 free level 3 spells would be a lil OP 19:42:04 the HP cost for makhleb's abilities is a price, not a side effect 19:44:49 No TILE defined for 'dragonskin cloak' 19:44:50 TILE_EQ not defined for 'dragonskin cloak' 19:44:50 19:46:30 Yeah, I spotted that before 19:47:33 SamB: what are you plans with the private Henzell? 19:48:35 dpeg: well, I brought it in here to announce crashes when testing Cryptic's branch 19:48:48 good 19:49:07 in #SamB, I have it announcing deaths and milestones to me 19:49:35 who else gets to be in #samb? 19:49:56 (I hope to improve the handling of ZotDef/Sprint milestones at some point, too.) 19:55:31 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:01:52 hm, these passage of golubria changes I'm tinkering with are interesting 20:02:11 I'm not really sure what the balance of the spell is like, but it is definitely more exciting now 20:02:21 what'd you make it do? 20:03:30 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 20:04:56 removed the limit of two portals at once (you now exit a random one), made the spell create two portals with each cast (one near you, one near the target) 20:06:25 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:06:30 that sounds a lot like what i'd suggested :P (except in mine it was one cast which made a bunch of portals in one go) 20:06:44 with balance, it seems ok to introduce a potentially overpowered POG in trunk if it makes the spell more interesting and worth using 20:06:50 i mean it wont be like 0.8 tornado or anything 20:08:02 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:08:07 perhaps you could add some other component to the spell to make it feel like it should have a target? like if something is standing next to a portal when it closes, they take some damage 20:08:17 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 20:08:26 evilmike: yeah 20:08:27 so if you cast it 'on' something, it brings it close to you, but then damages its friends 20:11:59 eronarn: something like that could be interesting, yes... I'll keep it in mind for later 20:13:08 would it still work on monsters? or only on the player 20:13:33 marvinpa: monsters still go through the portals just like players, yes 20:13:36 ah okay 20:13:48 do the portals still close after one use? 20:13:53 yeah 20:14:15 definitely sounds interesting and worth trying out 20:14:50 maybe someone will finally use it to teleport cerebov into a box and kill him :P 20:14:53 can you target enemies to instantly suck them through a portal and end up next to you? 20:15:06 wensley: the portals can't be created on top of monsters 20:15:10 :( 20:15:25 and there is +-2 squares of randomness 20:15:46 MarvinPA: I dont get that teleport cerebov into a box strategy. How would you kill him in the box? 20:15:52 freezing cloud 20:16:02 but he can fire storm you too 20:16:06 and summon outside the box! 20:16:09 the only cerebov box strategy I can think of involves imprison and shatter 20:16:15 you can freezing cloud, step out of sight, wait, repeat 20:16:17 not if you keep him out of LoS 20:16:18 it would work but like 20:16:23 don't actually do this 20:16:26 or even never have him in los with flood fililng, yeh 20:16:27 you can see a corner of the box where he isn't 20:16:30 yeah* 20:16:32 filling* 20:16:39 it's about the same as killing him while he's stuck behind a bolt trap 20:16:51 why on earth does he get stuck behind bolt traps :( 20:16:58 he doesn't anymore 20:16:59 actually that strategy worked really well for me, it was the easiest cerebov kill i've ever had 20:17:01 ah, good 20:17:05 evilmike: like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KezvwARhBIc 20:17:10 anyway creating two portals at a time actually makes some abuses like that harder 20:17:36 do monsters avoid the portals? 20:17:40 no 20:17:42 are they blind to them? 20:17:51 mmm blind 20:17:52 I think so 20:18:09 that might make it pretty good 20:18:11 does spellpower decrease the fuzz? 20:18:38 i'd be hesitant of doing that because sometimes you actually want fuzz 20:18:45 -!- medgno has quit [Quit: Quitting] 20:18:49 unless it's LOS-range 20:19:27 eronarn: the fuzz can't take stuff out of sight 20:19:57 smite-targeted? 20:20:29 it is smite-targeted but can't go past transparent walls 20:20:56 maybe you could let it go past transparent walls, but make the portals one-way only, so that you can only enter the distant one :P 20:21:10 elliptic: i just mean that if it were 6+/-2 you'd either sometimes want fuzz or have to make fuzz only bring it closer 20:21:39 eronarn: ah, right. currently it is full LoS range, but the fuzz can't take stuff out of sight 20:21:45 so the fuzz isn't a good thing 20:21:59 still I don't think reducing it with spell power is necessarily a good idea 20:23:33 have you considered adjacent portal to you instead of random? 20:23:45 like, always in the direction you placed it, or something 20:39:08 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: n8] 21:08:25 03elliptic * rb76dd12d1a29 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Passage of Golubria changes. 21:09:04 ooh 21:09:35 it needs testing and could be overpowered, but that's what trunk is for 21:09:49 and nearly anything is better than a spell that nobody casts 21:12:10 -!- phyphor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:12:24 -!- phyphor has joined ##crawl-dev 21:17:48 -!- phyphor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:21:39 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 21:44:39 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 21:45:44 evilmike: thanks! 21:45:56 also to elliptic :) 21:46:17 Make doorvaults more dangerous in dungeon branches (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4834) by evilmike 21:48:07 -!- phyphor has joined ##crawl-dev 21:49:08 mmm, i approve of buffing door vaults 21:51:07 we can make a door vault race to replace mountain dwarves 21:51:16 would synergize well with the dwarf god 21:51:24 I mean, door god 21:51:40 doorf god? too tired for this 21:51:53 doorfs are gimmicky 21:53:08 * dpeg notes that "doorf" is an anagram of "frodo". Bad Wensley, bad! 21:53:16 hahaha 21:57:36 -!- phyphor has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:57:54 -!- phyphor has joined ##crawl-dev 21:58:01 dpeg: hm, so any objections to renaming kenku? 21:58:17 to "jokeu"? 21:59:43 Er, no? 22:03:27 due: I don't care, but I'd definitely ask around. Terminology is a touchy subject, even in the devteam. 22:03:37 I support it. 22:04:48 dpeg: Yeah, I'll do an email. 22:07:30 the idea is s/kenku/tengu/? 22:07:36 elliptic: si 22:07:59 fine with me... Te even makes more words than Ke :P 22:08:17 Hehe, tgw will love it. 22:09:48 kilobyte? 22:10:36 4 am in central Europe 22:10:51 ahh 22:14:26 There is an interesting comment about Abyss shifting on the wiki. 22:19:33 what comment? 22:22:38 morphing shouldn't be constant (in time) but come and go 22:23:00 makes the thing less reliable/abusable and tactically more interesting 22:23:04 minmay/mumra 22:24:09 dpeg: is morphing every 20 turns or something silly like that? 22:24:21 elliptic: I don't really know, sorry. 22:24:28 Just reporting what it said on the wiki. 22:24:31 we really need to fix stuff like hell effects being predictable 22:24:43 yes, that too 22:24:48 the idea sounds more like, you'll have some duration of no morphing, and then morphing will kick in for a while, and then stop again 22:24:49 but I think minmay meant something different 22:24:55 evilmike: yes 22:25:09 as opposed to: it morps all the time 22:25:21 that could be good too, yeah 22:25:34 I like the idea of intermittent abyss morphing 22:25:36 could someone add to the wiki (planning page)-- I sleep 22:25:41 as long as morphing is still frequent 22:25:46 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 22:26:08 which planning page, I wonder 22:26:11 i wish it would morph into a different branch 22:26:38 mikee_: good idea, find the planning page for me and put that on there 22:28:13 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:28:38 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 22:28:39 and I assume that the map wont rot as long as it's not morphing? 22:28:47 ooh it'd be interesting if segments of other branches wound up there 22:29:07 Wensley, i am the last person you want help from for navigating the wiki 22:29:45 Mottie: mikee_ just nominated you to be the one to find out which planning page exists for the abyss 22:30:04 oh god 22:33:02 -!- elliptic_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:33:23 -!- elliptic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:33:28 -!- elliptic_ is now known as elliptic 22:52:23 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:09:33 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 23:18:28 greensnark: around? 23:21:13 -!- chukamok has joined ##crawl-dev 23:52:26 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]