00:17:10 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 00:23:07 -!- Brannock_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:37:50 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 00:48:31 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 01:44:15 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:44:31 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:47:24 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:03:11 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:04:45 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:41:10 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 02:42:01 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:52:47 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:53:02 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:56:34 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:00:41 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 03:01:08 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 03:08:19 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:10:05 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:12:02 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 03:12:51 We're getting another usability project from our department next spring. \o/ 03:13:07 I was just contacted by the student group's contact person. 03:15:04 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- IRC with a difference] 03:15:26 Keskitalo: Woo, great news :) 03:23:21 no coders, though, but I am wondering if I could outsource the tutorial to them 03:23:35 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 03:23:40 taking the Dungeon Olm report and using it to improve the tutorial 03:24:17 Readme should mention webtiles (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4820) by Galefury 03:44:33 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 03:46:25 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:55:23 ok, they're going to do their own evaluation on the tutorial in a month or so, and then compare to the dungeon olms report, and get into level design stuff 03:58:19 Olm? 04:24:24 -!- Amonchakad has joined ##crawl-dev 04:24:53 Once you reach *******, there's no way at all to know wether you have 161 piety, 200, or something in between 04:24:54 correct? 04:27:24 also, wrong channel. sorry 04:39:59 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 04:40:19 Our players, or at least the forum users, are quite enlightened. Only positive feedback on MD removal. 04:40:32 Many thanks for that, made me happy yesterday :) 04:43:19 does DD still need the "deep" modifier, in that case? 04:43:36 yes, I think so 04:43:43 this was also discussed on the forum, btw 04:44:12 And posters mentioned that "Dwarf" will make players think "Tolkien dwarf", i.e. axe and shield. The "deep" avoids that. 04:44:35 +1 to that, Deep should stay 04:46:10 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 04:46:27 fixing the Trowel card in places other than the main dungeon: there's a problem in the Abyss. You draw Trowel, go to a portal branch, then go banished again... what should happen? A real full stack? Or...? 04:47:08 -!- blabber has quit [Client Quit] 04:48:22 kilobyte: hm, no idea 04:48:24 all other places are obvious: just not being able to get a Bazaar while another Bazaar is on the stack won't even be noticed by anyone 04:48:33 we could rule that the Abyss is not amenable to extra portals 04:49:53 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 04:50:23 yeah, that's the simple&lame solution... would be a pity to not be able to have portals in the Abyss 04:50:39 aNänä, det är inte riktigt deras jobb. 04:51:37 Google translate: "pineapple, it's not really their job." -- wut? 04:51:58 kilobyte: yes. Just offering this is as the last exit strategy. 04:52:14 (I mean, especially regular portals, better than just Trowel) 04:52:22 aNänä --> Ananas, funny mistake 04:52:45 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 04:56:14 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:06:17 kilobyte: just make a portal to somewhere in abyss :) 05:20:12 or make it make an exit portal 05:20:17 hey, interesting 05:21:14 lol, paste fail. 05:22:13 Nänä = no no, it's note realkly their job. 05:22:13 On Blizzard arranging tournament,. 05:22:13 it could also be a passage through a portal (or indeed a direct exit) 05:22:13 the way you can exit Pan through the Abyss 05:22:21 BTW, I really think we have way too many direct exits from Pan and hardly any that go through the Abyss 05:22:29 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:22:41 too easy on the players, and loses a part of theme 05:23:10 kilobyte: you can change it! 05:29:23 the problem is that abyss is usually boring if you're doing pan 05:29:51 if there was some difficulty scaling, sure, but currently leaving abyss via pan would just be a chore 05:30:53 leaving Abyss is better now, I believe 05:30:53 you could make random exits go to abyss, and panlord vault exits be regular exits 05:31:07 -!- Amonchakad has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:31:35 abyss is much better now, but the monster set still makes it mostly trivial for someone who can reliably kill panlords 05:32:02 and their entourage 05:43:54 dpeg: A nice surprise today, we have another UKKOSS project course group ready to do usability work for us. 05:44:44 dpeg: Since we haven't gotten around to use the Dungeon Olm report to improve the tutorial, I suggested they could do that. 05:45:59 (I was going to do that for 0.10, but I thought this would be a much better use of resources. They won't do this for 0.10 of course.) 06:02:43 03kilobyte * r61d0dd02b921 10/crawl-ref/source/dbg-asrt.cc: When crashing, print the error to stderr as well. 06:02:53 03kilobyte * rccd80feabc80 10/crawl-ref/source/Makefile: Really fix rltiles being built when building for console. 06:02:53 03kilobyte * r9d1de065e9ce 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: A nicer assert message. 06:17:38 Keskitalo: sounds great! 06:45:51 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 06:48:16 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:48:44 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:58:40 I see that MarvinPA already lines up the next species for wipeout. 06:58:46 heh :P 06:59:54 which species? 07:00:37 high elves would be my preference, they're just so boring and there are loads of other really fun races that do the magic/melee hybrid thing just as well 07:00:57 they still exist? O_o 07:00:59 also three species of elves is too many, especially now we only have one dwarf :P 07:01:31 We only hae one dwarf? 07:01:34 wow, I am behind the times 07:02:02 only as of a couple of days ago, yep 07:02:04 they're the cooler elves, I'd say. Sludges are the boring ones IMO. 07:02:16 delete humans! 07:03:16 ahh 07:03:16 nothing interesting about them -- slightly smarter but weaker orcs 07:03:16 and we know from RL that they suck 07:03:16 i like sludge elves myself 07:03:16 i kinda like the unarmed/transmuter/necromancy thing sludge elves have, it seems fairly unique compared to the "generic charms/melee hybrid" of HE 07:03:16 but I thought high elves weregone 07:03:16 (of course, after halflings are gone) 07:03:35 due: plain and greys 07:04:13 ah 07:04:31 my main beef against sludges is unarmed 07:06:09 looking for references, I've read an article by some martial art guy who claimed that a master might have some slight chances against a guy with a knife 07:06:25 so the odds are even more stacked than I though... and remember that sword >>>>>> knife 07:07:07 aren't they the only race that's good at unarmed but doesn't also have huge claws or something? seems like a reasonable niche 07:07:34 MarvinPA: yeah, and it's the existence of that niche what my beef is with :p 07:07:38 and i'm not sure realism in combat is something to worry about particularly :P 07:08:59 there are balance problems with unarmed... which can be solved in a quite easy way 07:08:59 well, it would probably be a good idea to nerf uc at the high end anyway 07:09:13 not to the point where it's "realistic" and useless against any weapons, but certainly for balance's sake it could take a hit :P 07:09:21 bashing people with a wielded rock is about how good I'd prefer to see human unarmed 07:09:42 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 07:10:09 there should be a difference between "unarmed" and "using claws", no? 07:10:37 phyphor: yeah, claws are a natural weapon 07:10:37 Hehe, HE, Hu, Ha, SE all waiting in front of the guillotine :) 07:11:24 are there going to be any replacements? 07:11:26 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 07:11:37 Xiberia: octopodes 07:11:42 oh no 07:11:48 there's plenty of new race ideas 07:12:11 SE seem like they do have a place though 07:12:15 there's a golem patch up on the wiki but it needs a lot of work i think 07:12:17 I was thinking, whilst I'm talkng in here, that now we only have one dwarf that the "No regen" is more like an undead characteristic and whether it should be renamed 07:12:43 er, up on mantis* 07:12:51 I am happy with how the DD has been accepted. 07:13:00 I wouldn't rename it, at least not without changes. 07:13:07 The /healing is still bothering. 07:14:22 HE are mostly better Ke 07:14:22 maybe just make a new sort of evocable item that works just like a /healing but it can't be recharged and is risky to use in combat? 07:14:22 but Ke are much more interesting 07:14:22 like an orb of healing? 07:14:44 Xiberia: yes, stuff like this can help. Then again, I did use DD recharging for non-healing wands. That was cool :) 07:14:53 i would look at it like Ke being a more interesting HE too, yeah :P 07:14:55 dpeg: we might merge HE and Ke the MD/Mi way 07:15:21 kilobyte: but they're much further apart than MD/Mi, e.g. HP 07:15:26 Ha are too similar to Ko 07:15:34 was Mi changed in some way after the MD removal? 07:15:46 yes 07:15:54 better evo apt? 07:15:55 it is more a MD/Mi merge than a MD removal 07:16:05 ah 07:16:13 Ke have the nice focus on offensive apts and bad charms/tloc etc which is sort of unlike HE, too 07:16:28 kilobyte: I definitely like Ko better than Ha, yes. 07:16:51 MarvinPA: hmm yeah, the difference there is quite big 07:16:51 Ke are interesting but really suffer from their pathetic HP and bad apts in defensive magic schools unlike, say, deep elves 07:17:02 which make DE more attractive for an offensive caster 07:17:55 I always loved Ke since I read "propensity for violence" in the manual. I imagine them as winged hooligans. 07:19:41 still, merging in a similar way to MD/Mi could still work maybe, if Ke mostly keeps the magic apts and HE influences the melee apts 07:20:08 MarvinPA: looks like HE are the only race that's competent at both magic and melee. Everyone else either has no charms (Ke), no melee (Sp), no armour (Mf). 07:20:45 huh? why you need armour to be competent at magic and melee? 07:21:13 HE hybrids will just wear a robe, so will Mf 07:21:15 the strictly dodging niche is taken by Mf 07:22:10 Na also does it excellently 07:22:25 Mf will want to go into ice, HE have no such bias... so medium armour doesn't become an inferior choice 07:22:29 and can go armour or dodging, even 07:23:46 as can Ke if you go conj-heavy, and even on Ke it's not too hard to get haste castable either 07:24:42 comparing Na and He... it looks like nagas have most aptitudes lower by 2-3, have a different playstyle due to speed, and get loads of HP 07:25:40 The real casualty of axing MD is best Armour apt drops from +3 to +2(-helmets) 07:25:55 well it just seems to me that HE is the most generic possible "hit things with a sword and caste haste and win" race with no other distinguishing factors 07:26:49 naga can do that, but it's also slow and tough. ke can do it, but it's fragile and good at conj. mf can do it, but it's bad at armour and swims and stuff 07:27:41 they all have something interesting which i just don't see in HE 07:27:58 its very powerful 07:28:33 i would say interestingness is a better quality :P 07:29:07 caste haste1 07:30:14 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:31:24 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:31:29 plus it's easy to make the interesting races more powerful if need be 07:31:37 the other way round seems trickier 07:31:58 yes 07:32:40 Hm...the HE apts aren't very exciting, true 07:32:58 anyway, i'm not desperate to remove HE this very moment or anything. just the one i would like to get rid of most, at some point :) 07:33:02 Bows go unused by most players too 07:33:42 distinguished weapon apts are not as important as defensive/magic ones either 07:34:02 at least in the current combat system 07:34:30 It would be excellent if you got some benefit from "offclass" weapon skills 07:34:32 bows are a pain to use because ammo is so variable and because it's difficult to maintain range 07:34:48 Maybe with the weapon special moves that are planned 07:36:43 phyphor: I don't see the problems with ranged combat. 07:37:45 not that much obvious redundancy left. Ha-Ko, Hu-several races, [Dg -- in the works], Ds being still boring, Mu having lost their shtick 07:38:21 for ds being boring its pretty good at being the most played race 07:38:24 kilobyte: you think DS is still boring? 07:38:28 I still wonder if it would be possible to "build your own race" 07:38:35 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 07:38:54 dpeg: depends on what mutations you get 07:38:57 ds could certainly do with some more mutations but i'd say they're pretty good, yeah 07:39:06 some like nightstalker thoroughly change the game 07:39:11 Hu would be helped by bumping all the other current exp apt 100 races to 110 07:39:12 DS was my most played race before they got changed, and my least played afterwards :o 07:44:13 Se could be parcelled between Dr (tmut) and Mu/Vp (necromancy) -- but I see you don't share my hatred towards current unarmed 07:45:02 Og could use some more overhaul... they're still Tr with no regen 07:46:09 and +2 spellcasting and +3 fighting 07:46:12 OgCj still end up solving most problems with a club rather than magic 07:46:43 caster ogres are pretty good 07:46:46 og is way better than tr 07:47:42 Tr have worse weapon apts (M&F -1, UC 0), yet no food problems and that regen 07:47:57 Bump their hexes up to 0? Having a good hexer that isn't a good stealth character could be fun. Also ogre mages/Erolcha love invis and MR hitting stuff. 07:48:10 ogres don't have food problems, either 07:48:26 even just saprovore 1 is plenty, really 07:48:34 compared to Ce, not really, yeah 07:48:45 i really think troll is the worst race in the game 07:48:47 ??redundancy 07:48:48 redundancy[1/1]: ring of hunger on a Ce[Zin] 07:48:51 (although wasn't that going to be changed to carnivore 1 with the food changes?) 07:49:01 kilobyte: there is a UC problem, but killing UC using species will not help. Nerfing UC will. 07:49:19 i wish troll regeneration was percentage based so that it was still a good defense past the early game 07:49:40 Mu_: now that's strange... they're often described as the second best after MD 07:50:05 mostly for new players though 07:50:14 well they're good in the very early game 07:50:19 Troll is a newbie trap 07:50:24 but they're garbage after that 07:50:24 Easy to get to Lair, hard to ascend 07:50:25 MD and Tr were two of the races it took me longest to win, personally 07:51:24 dpeg: about Tr food in end-game, I realized we already have races that rely on specific gods (Vp, DD -- Gh have so much hp they can survive until healing rot back). So it's not that much a disaster as I though. 07:51:37 Species which are easy early and hard later are good. We want more of those, and fewer of the "hard early, easy later" type. 07:51:51 kilobyte: ok 07:52:40 !lg * urune>12 s=race 07:52:41 1104 games for * (urune>12): 98x Mountain Dwarf, 95x High Elf, 92x Merfolk, 90x Demonspawn, 84x Deep Elf, 66x Mummy, 52x Naga, 51x Spriggan, 49x Deep Dwarf, 43x Sludge Elf, 42x Kenku, 33x Ghoul, 33x Demigod, 30x Minotaur, 28x Halfling, 27x Hill Orc, 25x Human, 23x Kobold, 22x Ogre, 22x Centaur, 16x Octopode, 16x Vampire, 10x Troll, 8x Red Draconian, 7x Felid, 5x Black Draconian, 5x Yellow Draconia... 07:52:53 less than... octopodes? oif 07:53:58 i imagine people just don't even try to allrune trolls very often 07:55:02 dpeg: it's more frustrating to feel like your character gets weaker over time though :P 07:55:09 would be nice if Dr were collected in those lists 07:55:21 Mu_: but better design, imo 07:55:22 !lg * urune>12 s=crace 07:55:22 1104 games for * (urune>12): 98x Mountain Dwarf, 95x High Elf, 92x Merfolk, 90x Demonspawn, 84x Deep Elf, 66x Mummy, 52x Naga, 51x Spriggan, 49x Deep Dwarf, 43x Sludge Elf, 42x Kenku, 41x Draconian, 33x Ghoul, 33x Demigod, 30x Minotaur, 28x Halfling, 27x Hill Orc, 25x Human, 23x Kobold, 22x Centaur, 22x Ogre, 16x Vampire, 16x Octopode, 10x Troll, 7x Felid, 4x Gnome, 3x Grey Elf, 1x Ogre-Mage, 1x H... 07:55:32 thanks 07:55:35 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 07:56:11 98 MD, 49 DD, 1 HD :) 07:56:25 hmm 07:56:36 kilobyte: crawl seems to be crashing whenever i hit something with shatter 07:56:46 can you show just recent versions 07:57:26 is that likely to be to do with the shillelagh stuff, maybe? 07:57:36 * kilobyte whistles innocently. 07:57:39 :P 07:57:59 just the spell, it looks like 07:58:15 yeah, because I tested the shillelagh :p 07:58:30 hehe 08:00:42 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 08:04:08 03evilmike * rf7e7b2153a92 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-behv.cc: Make low maxhp monsters unable to flee again. 08:04:18 03tkpub_ahnfyc * readed9710d04 10/crawl-ref/source/ (stash.cc stash.h): Toggle between locations and items when searching 08:10:37 could someone give evilmike updater status on mantis, maybe? he's been uploading a bunch of patches and vaults, would make it easier for him to update them (updaters can delete files, right?) 08:12:38 and would save us from getting 5 different versions of files when he needs to re-upload things :P 08:14:46 MarvinPA: good point, will do 08:15:27 done, not sure if it works 08:16:35 hey, I did it :) 08:17:39 !tell evilmike Hi, you're now Updater on Mantis. This allows you to delete files and close items, if I understand correctly. 08:17:40 dpeg: OK, I'll let evilmike know. 08:20:09 03kilobyte * re5fff7df2e11 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-damage.cc: Crash less when shattering dudes. 08:23:14 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 08:23:54 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Quit: Recalculating TATARI at "the crossing crossing"] 08:24:52 Morning 08:25:37 Hi 08:27:05 Cryp71c: meow? 08:27:34 kilobyte, in my branch (which is now merged and compiles), I do'nt have the new race selection screen...any idea what may be causing that? 08:28:07 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: I was looking into #4815 (!experience + level-0 skills)... it's a one-line fix 08:28:38 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: should I do a merge-request, or just tell you which line? :) 08:28:45 ah, it is? 08:28:56 heh, just tell me which line is fine :P 08:29:40 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: skill_menu.cc line 823 (SkillMenu::get_state) has SKM_SHOW_KNOWN, should be SKM_SHOW_DEFAULT 08:30:27 aha, thanks! 08:35:04 <|amethyst> btw, is anyone working on the Twisted Resurrection implementable? I was thinking of trying my hand at it, but won't be able to start for at least a week 08:37:01 |amethyst: not that I am aware of. Put your name on the item when you start, please. 08:37:02 Cryp71c: not out of the top of my head 08:37:13 <|amethyst> will do 08:37:42 can malign gateways be placed in a vault? 08:38:06 I mean, as a trowel portal 08:39:06 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:40:45 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:45:32 <|amethyst> kilobyte: you say "Once it gets to 11, you get a large abomination. These cannot be upgraded any more." Is this an intentional nerf? (currently it can go up to 30 if you get enough corspes in one place) 08:46:48 i think the current view on twisted res is generally that it's pretty overpowered but nobody ever uses it because it's such a pain to do so 08:46:57 so that sounds reasonable to me 08:48:54 |amethyst: not intentional 08:49:04 would be cooler if there was a limitation on amount but you could make them stronger than they currently can be 08:49:16 |amethyst: would probably be a good idea -- you won't be able to create them with massive hp 08:49:19 would also reduce the tedium of moving them around 08:50:55 <|amethyst> Xiberia has a point.... whenever I'm using twisted resurrection I find navigating my army across stairs to be as tedious as (if not more than) constructing them in the first place 08:53:04 hm, perhaps replace army with just one (or very few) abominations? 08:53:54 maybe rework the spell entirely 08:54:12 "rework the spell entirely" isn't very helpful :P 08:54:24 make it limited to 2 or so aboms and let them adopt properties from the monsters which corpses you use to make them 08:54:27 the idea of turning corpses into a monster is good 08:54:30 that's what i was getting to 08:54:32 aha 08:54:41 hmm 08:54:46 might be a complete nightmare to code, however 08:54:48 as is kilobyte's idea to make the corpses do it themselves 08:54:51 well, i dunno 08:55:08 the implementable itself certainly seems like a good one regardless of other changes, yeah 08:55:24 in terms of cool theme and making the initial casting less annoying 08:55:28 dpeg: not that much work, it's mostly about having the AI be not just a regular monster 08:55:41 Who knows the loading screen stuff? Trying to debug why I get the old race / char selection screen 08:56:13 Cryp71c: something about internal version numbers? 08:57:18 dpeg, ..perhaps, should've been fixed on my merge though. 08:57:52 Cryp71c: is that version available on git? 08:58:07 03MarvinPA * rfac3801b5e9e 10/crawl-ref/source/skill_menu.cc: Fix inability to train level 0 skills with experience potions/cards (|amethyst) 08:58:09 kilobyte, my branch? yep. unified_combat_control 09:00:26 We're @ 32, correct/ 09:01:44 at that point saves don't matter yet 09:02:06 ah, right...thought maybe dpeg the logic was being limited based on version number 09:02:18 meant* 09:05:32 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: later] 09:05:43 Cryp71c: char selection works just fine for me 09:05:53 of course, combat crashes 09:06:48 kilobyte, well, yeah..I was just trying to figure out...the new branch divides the char selection into categories 09:07:42 yeah, and that works :p 09:08:01 kilobyte, ...on the unified branch? 09:08:23 yeah 09:09:43 <|amethyst> ...so probably corpses shouldn't be able to merge with the demonic kind of abominations... what about hostile undead abominations? 09:09:56 ...what the hell... 09:10:11 |amethyst: I wouldn't bother with the distinction 09:10:54 an abom is an abom... let's just make all aboms count as both undead and demonic 09:12:09 got to trot 09:12:18 <|amethyst> later, thanks 09:14:49 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: you're testing with ASCII or tiles? 09:15:23 |amethyst, ascii 09:15:32 <|amethyst> I'm building your branch now 09:16:18 sigh 09:16:20 I'm retarded. 09:16:28 <|amethyst> ? 09:16:34 I was on the race selection screen expecting to see the categorical division..but its the job selection that's divided out 09:16:50 You're welcome to build it though and test, you won't get far before you find bugs...maybe even crashes! :P 09:17:22 <|amethyst> there's an idea, race categories 09:18:15 <|amethyst> It'd be like the british empire: "these races are fierce warriors", "these are very spiritual peoples" 09:18:49 "and this is us, a race of gentlemen and scholars" 09:19:29 <|amethyst> Except in crawl it would be "and this is us, a very boring race that nobody wants to play" 09:20:11 you already have: undead, non-humanoid, monstrous (ogres, trolls) and then "humanoids" although that's probably a bad way of sorting it 09:21:19 <|amethyst> you know, I hadn't even noticed that 09:21:40 <|amethyst> I figured, since the last two additions were at the end.... 09:23:10 <|amethyst> though arguably merfolk should be with the nagas etc, since their natural form is not exactly humanoid 09:26:45 <|amethyst> I guess the order is: humanoids, small/tiny humanoids, large hybrids, giants, normal-sized hybrids, "planetouched", undead, and nonhumanoids 09:27:38 <|amethyst> so merfolk would be with minotaur, kenku, and draconian 09:27:55 <|amethyst> though they do get an @ character 09:29:48 <|amethyst> btw, where does the "It definitely deserves an axe to the head." thing come from? 09:30:23 <|amethyst> I mean, it sounds kind of out-of-place unless it's a reference I'm not getting 09:35:20 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: this is strange... when I get a message about an item it shows an uppercase letter, but in my pack it's on a lowercase letter 09:35:49 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: maybe related to the auto-uppercase thing you mentioned a day or two ago 09:35:50 |amethyst, you mean when you pick up stuff? 09:36:00 ah, yeah I see.. 09:36:01 <|amethyst> when I pick up, when I wield an item 09:36:18 yeah its an auto-uppercase thing 09:37:40 !tell kilobyte looks like a small bug with the auto-capitalization in my branch, when you pickup or wield items, it says "O - a dagger" but its actually "o - a dagger" 09:37:40 Cryp71c: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 09:37:59 |amethyst, any other bugs that you can see straight away? 09:39:49 <|amethyst> Cryp71c: nothing immediately obvious... I've tried unarmed, a weapon, and a branded weapon, and it hasn't crashed yet 09:40:03 <|amethyst> so I'm wondering how kilobyte got combat to crash so quickly 09:41:42 hehe, he probably tried something somewhat unusual, or else ran into an uncommon enemy 09:41:54 Try playing a minotaur, I got a crash there. 09:46:24 damy msysgit, something wierd about the buffer doesn't give me readable error messages after a crash... 09:46:34 <|amethyst> hm, nothing yet 09:46:58 lol I'm not sure you're really on my branch :P 09:47:01 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 09:47:07 I assure you, its not THAT stable 09:47:24 <|amethyst> well, it still has mountain dwarves, so it's not trunk 09:47:34 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:47:44 |amethyst, ...I've merged with trunk, so...it shouldn't... 09:47:56 hrm, and yet... 09:47:57 it does. 09:47:57 <|amethyst> how recently 09:48:06 a day ago or two? 09:48:13 <|amethyst> that's probably it 09:49:02 <|amethyst> yeah, it's since your merge 09:50:26 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:51:10 <|amethyst> 55 new commits since then, in fact 09:54:11 <|amethyst> nothing yet, but I haven't gone below D:1 either... I've gtg now, I'll give it another try later 09:55:09 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 10:09:54 brb 10:09:55 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:13:48 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:14:24 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 10:30:20 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:34:37 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 10:35:59 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 10:43:48 rax: http://chronicle.com/blogs/onhiring/a-new-adjunct-movement/29557 10:44:17 I think this is the wrong channel. :) 10:44:41 ...yes, yes it is. 10:45:20 OR IS IT 10:46:07 03edlothiol * r85cd492b353e 10/crawl-ref/README.txt: Mention Webtiles in the README.txt (#4820). 10:46:15 directed by M. Night Shyamalan 11:04:26 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:05:26 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:05:39 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 11:07:58 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:10:13 |amethyst: the "axe to the head" thing comes from kilobyte writing the halfling description 11:10:56 wouldn't the neck usually be more appropriate ? 11:10:57 just his way of saying ceterum censeo etc. i guess 11:11:10 * SamB doesn't speak latin 11:11:40 some dude (cato?) always said "im also for destroying troy" after senate votes 11:12:26 no wait, carthage 11:12:29 oops 11:16:16 elliptic: say, how come you didn't pull my Henzell stuff? 11:16:54 "how come you didn't pull my Henzell stuff?" 11:17:08 * SamB facepalms 11:17:09 For anyone willing to download and build my branch, I'd <3 you for testing 11:17:11 :P 11:17:11 Oh, wait, I'm not elliptic, never mind 11:17:39 Cryp71c: say, any particular reason you didn't do a real merge ? 11:17:52 and would you mind if I did one ? 11:17:52 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:18:00 SamB, what do you mean, a "real" merge? 11:18:07 one with two parent commits 11:18:26 ...I'm not following you... 11:18:39 But yeah you're welcome to do it 11:18:44 okay, open gitk or whatever equivalent tool 11:19:53 oh, you *are* aware that git commits are organized in a DAG, right? 11:19:54 You want me to do it? 11:20:14 no, I was just going to explain what I meant 11:21:04 SamB, oh ok...yeah I'm aware of how they're technically oragnized, though I might lack the benefits of that knowledge 11:21:31 well, most commits have a single parent 11:22:31 right, whereas a merge should have two, one for the local branch's HEAD and the other as the merged branch's HEAD 11:23:12 yeah (except HEAD is actually a technical term for something else in git, but that's really relevant here ;-) 11:24:32 and, what's more, I don't know the correct term for what you meant by HEAD just now 11:25:21 Well presumably I meant the current branch's most recent commit immediately preceding the merge. 11:25:35 yes, that's what you meant 11:26:07 "most recent commit" *is a good way of putting it 11:26:13 er. *is* 11:26:49 SamB: I didn't understand your changes well enough to put them in my pull request, basically 11:26:49 I'm not sure what I would've done to not have it structure the parents of the merge properly. I just did a git merge master 11:27:21 I thought you did that wierd thing pagefault told you? 11:28:40 oh, wait, it looks like you do have a normal merge here 11:28:52 then you have another commit that *claims* to be a merge, but isn't 11:31:36 hmm, this is going to take some time to build ;-) 11:32:10 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:33:09 Cryp71c: so, I guess you probably haven't got much need for this, but did you see that PCH=y works correctly now? 11:33:26 Fruden (L27 DgWn) ASSERT(feat_is_solid(feat)) in 'beam.cc' at line 1114 failed. (Zig:16) 11:33:28 PCH=y? 11:34:01 you pass that to make 11:34:12 it enables the use of precompiled headers 11:34:46 kilobyte: what were we waiting for before making that the default, again ? 11:35:13 Fruden (L27 DgWn) ASSERT(feat_is_solid(feat)) in 'beam.cc' at line 1114 failed. (Zig:16) 11:35:31 Cryp71c: precompiled headers speed up building by avoiding the need to parse AppHdr.h and everything it pulls in for every single .cc file 11:37:02 Fruden (L27 DgWn) ASSERT(feat_is_solid(feat)) in 'beam.cc' at line 1114 failed. (Zig:16) 11:40:24 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:40:35 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:44:47 SamB, he said he was going afk earlier, might want to tell him 11:45:14 !tell kilobyte what were we waiting for before making PCH the default, again ? 11:45:15 SamB: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 11:45:17 SamB, anyways, yeah...feel free to test my branch :P There's certainly enough bugs to go around..and damn msysgit doesn't display crash messages well...it doesn't seem to clear the screen, so I still see the remnants of my last page. 11:45:25 last screen* 11:46:18 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:47:06 hmm 11:47:12 that, we should be able to do something about 11:47:57 I thought you were referring to the difficulty of unwinding the stack :-) 11:49:17 oh, no I can sift through stacktrace and all that without too much difficulty...most of the time 11:49:26 its that I literally only see about 1/6 of the error message, if anything :P 11:50:23 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:50:33 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:50:38 you *could* try using tiles (and running crawl.exe | cat) 11:51:11 or crawl.exe 2>&1 | cat 11:53:18 SamB, error initializing console output mod 11:53:24 (with the 2>&1 | cat) 11:54:25 (the "| cat" would be needed because of this Windows wart, wherein it disconnects GUI programs' stdin/out/err handles from any consoles they might be connected to) 11:54:32 Cryp71c: I said *tiles* 11:54:47 that won't work for the console version, because it *needs* a console 11:55:00 I'll see what I can do about getting it to crash better, though 11:55:19 crash.. better 11:55:30 yes! 11:55:50 in a more informative manner 11:59:22 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 12:16:39 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.7/20100713130626]] 12:27:09 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:27:12 -!- alefury has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:28:03 Cryp71c: what's with the unused variables in melee_attack.cc? 12:28:03 -!- ais523 has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:28:05 -!- ais523_ is now known as ais532 12:28:07 -!- ais532 is now known as ais523 12:36:01 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 12:41:28 SamB, are you compiling debug mode, or ? 12:42:30 oh, no 12:42:40 not full, anyway 12:44:08 ..wha? If you build normally (just 'make'), variables get initialized that are for debug purposes. They aren't surrounded by ifdef debug_diagnostics in an attempt to minimize clutter in the source. 12:44:22 I see 12:44:47 actually, the *first* one was for a variable used in commented-out code ... 12:46:04 oh yeah I did some block comments resulting from the merge 12:46:16 wasn't sure if I needed the code or not 12:51:44 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: No route to host] 12:52:09 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 12:53:20 what's the command to build in tiles? 12:54:16 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 12:59:07 Cryp71c: you add TILES=y to your make command 13:10:16 omg tiles is huge... 13:25:56 Can someone with experience on map files look at evilmike's pan stuff, I've no idea if they were originally added in in September, but dpeg has marked them as new and it seems like he's put a lot of work into testing them, I would think they deserve a brief lookover and addition into trunk: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4630 13:27:14 Okay, my build finished. Now to start GDB and play a minotaur... 13:27:31 GDB? 13:27:32 ??gdb 13:27:32 I don't have a page labeled gdb in my learndb. 13:27:38 debugging tool? 13:27:44 the debugger, yes 13:28:01 IS it easy to setup? Guess I aught to get it too 13:28:36 also, do you use it on windows? 13:28:46 it's not too hard to set up 13:30:02 ... but it has problems backtracing through MS's DLLs :-( 13:30:51 -_- 13:31:12 I'm thinking I might virtualize my dev environment to go to linux :P 13:31:15 however, if the crashes are occuring in your code or in libstdc++, it could be quite helpful 13:31:43 because then it won't *have* to backtrace across MS's DLLs 13:32:48 what kind of Mi should I try? 13:33:09 I did a monk 13:33:11 MiMo 13:33:14 and it crashes pretty readily 13:33:55 I see 13:34:06 looks like an unhandled attack_type in that case. 13:34:48 I'm seeing an unhandled attack flavour 13:35:55 what the ... 13:36:03 why don't I have any symbols :-( 13:36:15 oh 13:36:21 I forgot to use my script :-( 13:39:52 commenting out the default: case in the relevant switch() gives: 13:40:18 melee_attack.cc:875:16: warning: enumeration value ‘AT_CHERUB’ not handled in switch [-Wswitch] 13:40:18 melee_attack.cc:875:16: warning: enumeration value ‘AT_WEAP_ONLY’ not handled in switch [-Wswitch] 13:40:18 m 13:41:47 What is the AT_Cherub used for? 13:42:20 I don't know, but I'm guessing it relates to holies 13:42:36 eh we'll make it medium-noise 13:43:32 k, pull (or check diff and apply locally) 13:43:35 I'ma setup my linux VM 13:43:44 good idea 13:44:09 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * rf84a85199e03 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Handle AT_CHERUB and AT_WEAP_ONLY in adjust_noise 13:44:50 * SamB just uses a different computer, but then he doesn't think he has enough RAM to use a VM. 13:45:27 (Anyway, that computer is also acting as a router for my family's internet connection...) 13:58:12 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:59:22 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 14:28:12 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.7/20100713130626]] 14:28:26 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:52:16 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:54:29 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:56:52 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:57:01 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 15:02:38 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:03:19 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 15:04:52 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 15:21:08 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:22:31 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:25:52 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:28:24 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:44:28 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:56:46 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 16:05:15 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 16:09:02 78291 (L15 HOTm) ERROR: range check error (65792 / 211) (Abyss) 16:11:10 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:12:12 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 16:12:16 Random background selection results in Reaver class (should be removed?) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4821) by bdish 16:14:30 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 16:15:44 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:52 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 16:16:13 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 16:39:17 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 16:43:50 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:11 !tell Cryp71c http://paste.debian.net/140532/ 16:50:12 SamB: OK, I'll let Cryp71c know. 16:50:53 man, programming is the best 16:52:44 Valgrind is the best, you mean. 16:53:31 vim is the best, you mean. 16:54:27 i meant programming and all that surrounds it 16:54:36 -!- jle_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:54:38 everything has such a tendency to just go horribly wrong 16:56:26 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59:09 well, it seems he allowed attk_type to remain uninitialized ... 17:02:35 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 17:15:28 * SamB rebuilds without DWARF 4, in the hope that valgrind won't get confused by that and will be able to identify individual variables 17:17:57 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: gn8] 17:21:13 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 17:24:53 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:35:09 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 17:38:13 -!- syllogism has quit [] 18:20:39 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238]] 18:33:08 -!- casmith789 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:50:19 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 18:54:37 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:46 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 19:33:59 Evening 19:34:00 Cryp71c: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 19:34:03 !messages 19:34:03 (1/1) SamB said (2h 43m 52s ago): http://paste.debian.net/140532/ 19:34:56 SamB, thanks 19:35:02 I'll address that in the morning 19:39:20 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:47:06 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 20:00:26 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 20:02:24 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:03:38 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:04:06 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 20:20:42 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:28:40 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 20:28:44 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 20:29:49 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:33:35 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 20:35:24 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:36:29 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 20:47:11 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 20:51:35 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:17:03 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 21:17:51 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 21:18:25 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:20:32 -!- \Echo has joined ##crawl-dev 21:20:42 <\Echo> hello 21:20:58 <\Echo> i think i may have stumbled across a bug in tiles 21:21:42 \Echo: what's the bug? 21:21:54 <\Echo> it appears to be similar to Mara's Mislead spell 21:22:11 <\Echo> as a Hill Orc Priest, some of my orcs have suddenly become unrandart equipment 21:22:20 <\Echo> i have a screenshot somewhere... 21:22:21 <\Echo> http://imgur.com/qIPlO 21:22:53 <\Echo> but i don't think Mara could be present (at least not commonly) on Orc:4, and if I recall correctly, Mislead causes a status effect 21:23:22 do the tiles change between turns? 21:23:36 <\Echo> yes, and between not-turns such as pressing spacebar 21:23:49 <\Echo> i have a higher quality screencap; i'm not sure what happened to that particular upload 21:24:15 ok, I believe this may be related to a known bug, but could you report it on https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/bug_report_page.php anyway? 21:24:27 a savegame would also be helpful 21:24:32 <\Echo> happy to do so 21:24:35 <\Echo> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10162998/My%20orcs%20are%20now%20items....png 21:24:40 <\Echo> a larger image, if helpful 21:27:26 ok actually, I'm sure this is a known bug, so you don't need to report it 21:28:26 <\Echo> as you say 21:28:38 you could upload the savegame at Since TILEP_MCACHE_START currently resides at 1851, this leaves space for 196 cached monsters within los; all monsters beyond that value use item tiles instead. Apparently, the cache is recalculated anew every turn, but there still might be a connection to those tileref assertions we get occasionally (maybe if the same mcache index is shared by several monsters). I also don't understand what causes 21:28:38 <\Echo> something triggering the mislead effect without mara around, I guess? 21:28:45 Apparently, tileidx_t being unsigned int is too small... 21:28:47 sorry 21:28:48 wrong paste 21:28:53 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3707 21:29:14 no, it's a lot weirder 21:29:40 Ouch, we've hit a limit now? 21:29:53 <\Echo> this is quite interesting 21:30:10 it's the mcache 21:30:17 ack 21:30:46 I remember we had to tweak the size of some thing awhile back for tiles; did the mcache not go up to compensate? 21:31:22 You require more classes, friend. 21:31:26 hmm I don't know, I'm not sure what the thing you mean is ;) 21:31:46 but the whole mcache thing should probably be reworked, it's a source of many bugs 21:31:51 <\Echo> advice is appreciated. cheers :D 21:31:52 I'm not sure 21:32:04 I think we changed the size of something that stored tiles 21:32:10 -!- \Echo has left ##crawl-dev 21:32:55 You guys said that you made Slaying spawn bigger right? 21:33:07 Did you adjust the prices for slaying being nerfed ? (in shops that is) 21:33:32 I think they were, at least people talked about doing it 21:34:33 Hm 21:34:42 because +3/+4 with rC- is still ~2k golds 21:35:08 well it has int +4 so hm 21:35:52 ah, it was decreased, but only slightly 21:36:22 (something like to 80%) 21:36:41 Ah 21:36:55 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 21:38:59 Becoming Poison Resistant While Poisoned Doesn't Cure the Poison (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4822) by Vinterriket 21:42:14 that should work if only for necromutation 22:03:25 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:14:57 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:05 that's intended behavior afaik 22:19:20 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:14:24 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 23:21:09 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 23:37:14 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:51:19 hm, this bug seems a bit strange 23:52:13 if I go directly from wielding a sling to wielding potions of blood, then sling-training gets disabled 23:52:32 but if I unwield to bare hands and then wield the potions of blood, it is fine 23:53:00 and I can't seem to reproduce it in wizmode with a new character 23:53:34 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 23:53:57 oh, I guess it could have something to do with this character being transferred from some old version from a few months ago... still the behavior seems strange 23:54:43 yeah, I think galehar needs to be less stateful ... 23:54:45 er. 23:54:50 +rejig that code to be 23:57:24 like, have it recalculate all your trainable skills whenever you do something that impacts trainability ... 23:58:37 this behavior still makes no sense to me 23:59:11 I've been trying wielding random items and sometimes it disables training but not always 23:59:37 like, load a game, start a new game, pick up/drop an item, wear/remove something, begin or end wielding a cursed thing ... 23:59:52 I think it has something to do with the identify status of the item 23:59:55 (I've seen stuff not reset properly when starting a new game)