00:00:41 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 00:02:07 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1483-ge7e5fb8 (32) 00:13:43 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1483-ge7e5fb8 00:15:10 -!- ixtli_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:16:20 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:16:20 -!- ixtli_ is now known as ixtli 00:32:40 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- \o/] 00:37:55 Cure Poison not being useless to Naga (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4801) by Jack Trades 00:56:38 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:55 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:03:46 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 01:08:05 Scrolls of immolation don't identify rings of protection from fire... (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4802) by Twilight 01:10:32 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 01:11:56 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 01:14:46 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 01:50:50 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 01:50:50 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 02:04:47 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 02:21:58 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 02:25:50 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:34:00 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:50:19 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:53:32 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 02:53:35 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:59:59 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:02:00 SamB_: linking big classes takes some memory, linking templates takes MASSIVE HEAPS of memory, but many small classes are no worse than many small procedures 03:02:37 SamB_: and I see that a good majority of link complexity is taken by templates 03:03:24 like, adding a new std::map<> which doesn't match an already used type exactly enlarges the binary by >30KB 03:15:37 *rotfl*. SamB_: about compiler memory usage, look-ad-diz: http://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/10/24/0016241/android-ics-will-require-16gb-ram-to-compile 03:17:53 O.O 03:20:06 from our own backyard: with -flto, Crawl pushes towards 1GB 03:20:16 -flto? 03:22:15 -!- Elynae has joined ##crawl-dev 03:22:27 Is some "item buggily placed" bug known? 03:22:32 Really unwield e - a +6,+7 elven quick blade of distortion? 03:22:32 You are now empty-handed. 03:22:32 --more--cast into the Abyss! 03:22:32 To return, you must find a gate leading back. 03:22:32 Item buggily placed in feature at (36, 30). 03:22:33 _You sense a powerful magical force warping space. 03:23:00 link time optimizations. The regular compile stage does all the preprocessing, parsing, some optimizations, and saves the compilation tree attached to .o 03:23:08 in a language-neutral form, too 03:23:32 the actual compilation takes place during link, which understandably takes a lot of time and memory 03:23:53 Ahh 03:24:13 this gives massive speed-ups for C++ code with lots of accessors. Crawl gets more than 25% in some benchmarks. 03:29:35 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:30:15 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:32:31 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:32:34 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 03:33:03 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 03:34:25 03kilobyte * r0d819ea4eb8b 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Set the shape for orbs of fire, IOOD and silver stars to "orb". 03:34:35 03kilobyte * r58bcba787d19 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Make Aizul and guardian serpents eligible for recite. 03:34:35 03kilobyte * rdfec0f07b048 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Mark Yiuf as a worshipper of Xom. Fish! 04:09:32 -!- Elynae has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:21:40 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 04:32:25 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:36:56 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 04:59:50 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 05:08:06 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:10:58 !tell dpeg Tomes of Destruction cost ~2.5k. What about cutting this by a factor of 10? They're effectively unreliable wands. 05:10:58 kilobyte: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 05:11:12 moin 05:12:59 Zaba: I've been thinking about generating a triangular map, then applying a radial mapping to it so it produces a map with circular corridors. 05:13:36 that could look neat 05:14:18 not sure if it could be done with generic map generators, or only with something crafted specially for that 05:15:20 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:17:04 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:17:16 another question: is there a way to have lua prevent a map from being selected? If I try to conditionally set DEPTH:, it is executed only at Crawl's start, rather that upon map selection. 05:18:44 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:18:45 (meant WEIGHT: but DEPTH: could work too, of course) 05:19:08 kilobyte, not really, not easily. 05:19:28 we have hacks like no_species_fe 05:19:52 oh, also: 05:19:55 : if trove.weapon_skills() >= trove.spell_skills() and trove.weapon_skills() >= you.skill("Unarmed Combat") then 05:19:58 WEIGHT: 15 05:20:00 : else 05:20:03 WEIGHT: 5 05:20:05 : end 05:20:19 this doesn't work, right? 05:20:34 not as intended, no 05:21:36 it will use the value of you.skill("Unarmed Combat") from when the map is being compiled 05:22:30 yeah 05:24:42 I wonder how to fix this... a lua hook that can ask the map to refuse being placed could work, but not sure how to call it 05:24:50 my current game created the shedu/ophan altar vault on a bubbled level. it had no connection in any direction not even escape hatches. 05:25:50 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 05:26:55 the easy way would be allowing rejection during placement, asking for a reroll... but it appears it's too late at that moment 05:30:48 hallowed_hall uses a symbol "'" that has no SUBST: to floor. The dungeon builder correctly puts floor there, but I guess this might cause connectivity checks to not be done. 05:31:58 oh yeah, one shouldn't rely on invalid symbols meaning floor 05:34:13 03kilobyte * r28761a5c72e1 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: Beef up the hallowed quokka on deeper depths. 05:34:18 03kilobyte * r4a0ab6ada359 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: Don't let hallowed_hall be disconnected. 05:37:36 Zaba: looks like local preludes get re-run whenever you start or restore a game 05:37:58 perhaps we could re-run the prelude when the map is about to get selected as well? 05:48:22 maybe, but it's hard to predict what other consequences that might have :P 05:59:51 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 06:31:06 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:34:14 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:35:46 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:36:04 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:36:20 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Client Quit] 06:36:46 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 06:40:14 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:42:05 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 06:42:22 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:04:50 -!- ais523 has quit [] 07:05:00 -!- rejuxst has joined ##crawl-dev 07:05:01 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:11:15 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:24:43 -!- phyphor has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:28:05 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:29:07 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:30:49 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 07:32:10 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * r1190b775daf0 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Cleanup comments and test removal of unnecessary? code 07:32:41 Morning 07:35:35 -!- Ragdoll has joined ##crawl-dev 07:41:29 -!- phyphor has joined ##crawl-dev 07:45:57 hmm, so it seems like if you pacify geryon you can lose access to the hells 07:46:06 since he'll just disappear and take the horn with him 07:46:35 should he drop the horn on being pacified, or something along those lines? 07:52:57 seems reasonable 07:53:37 since the horn also contributes to score, otherwise i'd say just have him blow it 07:53:49 i don't think it contributes to score anymore 07:54:27 in that case, just have him become a wandering minstrel, playing trumpet wherever he goes 07:54:28 just having him blow it is probably a pretty easy way to fix it, no idea what'd be most thematic though 07:54:30 heh 07:56:11 'Geryon blows a cheerful note on his horn, then bows.' 07:56:19 after the normal pacify message 07:56:25 then after that, the 'your way is unbarred' message 07:56:41 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 08:04:00 -!- MarvinPA has quit [] 08:04:18 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:08:24 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:14:08 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 08:25:55 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 08:29:18 -!- rejuxst has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:36:17 Eronarn: what if ypu 08:36:24 Eronarn: what if you're in the Abyss at that moment? 08:48:20 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 09:10:09 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 09:15:34 good point, i forgot he can leave the vestibule. better stop him from leaving the vestibule 09:19:23 I don't see why he should be immune to banishment. 09:20:26 Isn't it reasonable - given the number of headaches asosciated with him being able to be banished - just to say his power grounds him in the vestibule? 09:20:43 Could do the same for all the hell lords, if you wanted to be consistent. 09:21:01 and what would that give us? 09:21:20 the player wants the horn, not Geryon 09:21:53 So banishment of Geryon becomes an even EASIER way to get the horn? 09:24:05 I don't see why -- you not only have to kill or pacify him (like before) but also to find him in the Abyss 09:25:18 I mean, I suppose that's fine...just seems like it's a punishment on players who a) don't realize you need to acquire his horn in order to access the hell branches or b) accidentally banish him 09:40:14 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:40:37 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 09:45:23 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:51:12 -!- ais523_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:59:45 -!- jle_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:01:41 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:02:13 Mu, ever setup DCSS in a full IDE like Eclipse? 10:04:57 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:06:46 he's pretty easy to find in the abyss if you do banish him 10:07:32 i suppose there isn't really any in-game indication that the horn is what you need to open the entrances to the hells 10:08:44 so if you banish geryon on your very first encounter with him then perhaps it's confusing, sure :P 10:15:29 kilobyte: isn't there some kind of "validate" hook that you can use ? 10:16:44 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 10:30:18 SamB_: no, that's too late 10:30:45 SamB_: at that point the map is already chosen 10:32:03 MarvinPA, I think the first time I played through, I was confused that there were even branches of hells, to a noob player (who isn't experimenting with EVERY item they find), the 4 branch entrances might just look like flavored-spawn areas. 10:33:19 well he's pretty obviously some kind of unique guardian 10:33:30 so it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect new players to take a look at the item he drops 10:34:01 IDK, the only thing about him that indicates that he's a guardian of some sort is that he is typically found RIGHT next to the stairs down. 10:34:11 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:34:30 and his description! 10:34:46 That's really about it, I think his description says something about his guardianship..if nothing else, I don't think it hurts anything to have his description say "its rumored he possesses a magical horn capable of unlocking the 4 gates of hell" 10:34:48 or something of that nature. 10:35:00 s/have his description/add to his description 10:35:10 that'd probably do the trick, sure 10:35:17 but that's just me, and its a small addition nonetheless so I'm not bothered either way. 10:36:07 i'd agree the description could afford to explain it a little more, i'll edit that in a sec along with making him drop the horn when pacified 10:36:21 thanks 10:36:32 MarvinPA, ever setup an IDE w/ crawl? 10:36:49 nope, i just use msysgit and notepad++ 10:37:14 seems like a daunting task :P 10:37:26 yeah, I'm curious to know - if you set it up right - if you'd get auto-complete and all that 10:37:33 class-helpers and whatnot 10:37:49 Its super useful w/ minecraft modding..now I've been spoiled I want it in DCSS dev too! 10:37:50 :P 10:38:00 heh 10:39:24 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:39:25 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:41:14 who has the ability to revive the sequell bot? 10:41:30 jeanjacques, I think Sequell runs on CAO? Napkin in that case 10:41:32 Otherwise, rax. 10:41:45 If either are here, they'll respond to my above pings 10:41:50 Check for Evocations training needs to monitor carried Inventory (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4803) by XuaXua 10:42:10 kilobyte, what's the syntax to - on my unified combat branch - merge all the months of changes I've missed from master? 10:45:05 Cryp71c: I did set up Eclipse on Windows once, it was too slow for my machine to use though. It wasn't terribly hard, but I recall there were some kinks.. don't remember much more. 10:45:21 * SamB_ hopes Cryp71c has a good merging program 10:45:32 But, I could do it, so anyone should be able to. :) 10:46:26 Sequeall runs on a server owned by greensnark 10:46:26 rax: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 10:46:28 Which I said earlier 10:46:30 I can't fix it 10:46:37 Napkin can't fix it unless he knows something I don't know he knows 10:46:40 !messages 10:46:41 (1/1) ionfrigate said (2h 51m 48s ago): Sequell has mysertiously disappeared... 10:46:45 *sighs* 10:47:04 rax, sorry, I didn't know that 10:47:20 ??sequel 10:47:20 I don't have a page labeled sequel in my learndb. 10:47:26 ??sequell 10:47:26 sequell[1/1]: A bot for game statistics. See http://github.com/greensnark/dcss_henzell/raw/master/docs/listgame.txt 10:47:31 It's all good. 10:47:38 I changed the ##crawl topic 10:47:50 !learn edit sequell s/^/ Operated by greensnark, bother him with tech support issues! 10:47:50 sequell[1/1]: Operated by greensnark, bother him with tech support issues!A bot for game statistics. See http://github.com/greensnark/dcss_henzell/raw/master/docs/listgame.txt 10:47:58 ... 10:48:16 you don't know your traps from your gold! 10:48:31 Well I am not sure that he wants to be bothered. But if he doesn't, we should get it up and running somewhere else :) 10:48:31 -!- SamB_ is now known as SamB 10:48:35 !last Sequell 10:48:35 !learn edit s/(.)+!/ 10:48:35 Syntax is: !learn edit TERM[NUM] s/// 10:48:37 !learn edit s/(.)+!// 10:48:38 Syntax is: !learn edit TERM[NUM] s/// 10:48:43 !seen Sequell 10:48:44 I last saw sequell at Sun Oct 23 20:45:16 2011 UTC (19h 3m 27s ago) saying !messages on ##crawl. 10:49:02 lol greensnark must've actually been on sequell? I wasn't aware it checked its own messages 10:49:07 Cryp71c: git diff `git merge-base HEAD master` master 10:49:21 !learn edit sequell s/Operated by greensnark, bother him with tech support issues!// 10:49:21 sequell[1/1]: A bot for game statistics. See http://github.com/greensnark/dcss_henzell/raw/master/docs/listgame.txt 10:49:31 append -- fight.cc if you want just this one file 10:49:52 !learn edit sequell s/statistics./ Operated by greensnark. 10:49:53 sequell[1/1]: A bot for game Operated by greensnark. See http://github.com/greensnark/dcss_henzell/raw/master/docs/listgame.txt 10:50:19 !learn edit sequell s/for game /for game statistics. 10:50:19 sequell[1/1]: A bot for game statistics.Operated by greensnark. See http://github.com/greensnark/dcss_henzell/raw/master/docs/listgame.txt 10:50:37 !learn edit sequell s/.O/. O 10:50:37 sequell[1/1]: A . Ot for game statistics.Operated by greensnark. See http://github.com/greensnark/dcss_henzell/raw/master/docs/listgame.txt 10:50:45 lol 10:50:46 DMAN YOU regex 10:50:48 jeez, Cryp71c, you really should learn some regex 10:50:51 ??cryp71c 10:50:51 cryp71c[1/2]: according to {BirdoPrey}, is an obsessive DS player. (note, it doesn't mean he's actually GOOD at DS) :D 10:50:56 ??cryp71c[2] 10:50:56 cryp71c[2/2]: has sacrificed more spen's to the careless-death god than you will ever win. 10:51:00 gah where is my entry 10:51:02 -!- ais523_ is now known as ais523 10:51:13 I had an entry that said I tend to spam edits to henzell because of cursed regex. 10:51:29 Zaba, I'm vaguely familiar with it, but don't use it enough not to butcher stuff like I'm doing 10:51:38 !learn del sequell 10:51:39 Deleted sequell[1/1]: A . Ot for game statistics.Operated by greensnark. See http://github.com/greensnark/dcss_henzell/raw/master/docs/listgame.txt 10:51:40 !learn edit sequell[1] s/\. O/bo/ 10:51:41 I don't have a page labeled sequell[1] in my learndb. 10:51:47 !learn add sequell A bot for game statistics. Operated by greensnark. See http://github.com/greensnark/dcss_henzell/raw/master/docs/listgame.txt 10:51:47 sequell[1/1]: A bot for game statistics. Operated by greensnark. See http://github.com/greensnark/dcss_henzell/raw/master/docs/listgame.txt 10:51:48 meh, and I was going to fix it as well 10:51:54 Useless warning for casting freezing cloud (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4804) by ion_frigate 10:51:54 ais523, thanks, I appreciat eit :) 10:52:17 the general rule is to put a backslash before punctuation marks in the first half of the regex, if you want them to match literally 10:55:24 right 10:55:29 -!- varmin has joined ##crawl-dev 10:56:06 kilobyte, thanks 11:00:16 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 11:00:38 3 11:02:42 -!- blabber_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:05:48 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:12:00 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:12:56 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 11:34:03 re 11:34:17 anyone emailed greensnark about sequell yet? 11:36:58 !lg 11:36:58 1195. hyperbolic the Skirmisher (L5 MDMo), worshipper of The Shining One, slain by an orc wizard (a -1,+1 orcish dagger) on D:4 on 2011-10-23, with 323 points after 2831 turns and 0:14:36. 11:37:13 ah, great 11:43:17 is it just me, or is Zotdef more intense at the beginning than it had been? 11:45:50 kilobyte: is it possible that giving the Sprint kit out for Zotdef games has the side-effect of making tougher monsters spawn? 11:47:04 it's fairly random, isn't it? sometimes it can just be particularly nasty 11:47:18 oh, wait 11:47:28 I've been forgetting to use traps :-) 11:50:49 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:53:28 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 11:56:16 hmm, we ought to make act like + in targetting mode 11:56:43 would make things easier when switching back/forth between Crawl and doomrl 11:57:16 heh, i've been falling for that too 11:57:24 i think tab already does something in crawl targeting though 11:57:33 what ? 11:57:38 cycles shops and portals apparently 11:57:56 oh 11:58:05 hardly important with monsters near! 11:58:09 well, you can easily macro it 11:58:21 in fact i shall do now :P 11:58:35 please share, when done 11:58:41 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:59:55 we should devise a scheme by means of which it can easily be enabled in .crawlrc 12:00:38 at least for those of us whose .crawlrc includes init.txt rather than being a modified copy of it 12:01:55 hmm 12:02:02 not sure how to bindkey something to tab 12:02:23 check autofight MarvinPA 12:02:29 it's bound to tab 12:02:43 MarvinPA: "man ascii" is your friend 12:02:51 keybind.txt seems to be out of date 12:02:54 whassat? 12:03:19 if you're stuck on Windows, use one of those manpage websites 12:03:38 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:03:43 ascii(7) has a table of all the ASCII characters 12:04:00 -!- ais523 has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:04:01 -!- ais523_ is now known as ais523 12:04:45 Oct Dec Hex Char Oct Dec Hex Char 12:04:47 ──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── 12:04:47 011 9 09 HT '\t' (horizontal tab) 111 73 49 I 12:05:24 cool, got it 12:05:54 bindkey = [^I] CMD_TARGET_CYCLE_FORWARD 12:06:00 in the options file, does the trick 12:07:19 oh, I was expecting you to write some lua that checked if any monsters were visible and did that if yes, otherwise ran the normal command 12:07:26 oh, haha 12:07:31 don't be silly :P 12:07:51 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:07:55 i can't imagine ever wanting to cycle through shops and portals in targeting mode 12:08:21 does X share those bindings ? 12:08:41 hmm 12:08:45 good question 12:08:55 i don't think so though 12:09:18 nope, X has a seperate set 12:09:55 okay, then we might as well make this the default? 12:10:33 # 12:10:34 er 12:10:37 possibly* 12:10:46 I doubt anyone ever actually *used* that binding for anything 12:11:53 oh my 12:12:02 you can cycle through possible beam paths?! 12:12:20 why have i never known this 12:12:31 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Read error: No route to host] 12:12:34 (answer: it's not documented anywhere, of course) 12:12:36 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 12:12:43 MarvinPA: it is ... slightly! 12:13:02 if you count listing the binding in keybind.txt as documenting it 12:13:15 right, that's where i spotted it :P 12:14:36 it's funny how we use the keybinding/command system only for targetted wizmode commands ;-) 12:15:27 MarvinPA: What? 12:15:42 * SamB wonders if GCC can provide any assistance in finding pointless #includes 12:15:47 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 12:15:57 ZChris13: if there are multiple possible paths a beam could take, you can cycle through which one to use 12:16:03 Really? How? 12:16:05 ZChris13: press ^C 12:16:11 ctrl+c 12:16:24 I feel like I found this when i started playing 12:16:26 the other day, someone was complaining that they couldn't use that to break into GDB 12:16:29 Then forgot about it 12:18:57 this is such a revelation 12:19:18 never again will killing a line of orcs be awkward and annoying 12:21:03 * SamB adds to the online help 12:22:23 oh, i'm already doing that 12:22:27 if you mean the ingame thingy 12:22:35 heh 12:22:40 where were you adding it? 12:22:56 command.cc 12:23:04 right below ":" ? 12:23:10 yup! 12:23:15 me too! 12:23:23 heh 12:23:32 ": : show/hide beam path\n" 12:23:33 "Ctrl-C : cycle trough possible beam paths\n" 12:23:33 12:23:43 what was your text ? 12:23:50 almost identical except i spelled "through" correctly :P 12:23:56 heh 12:24:17 I guess it's probably a good idea 12:24:41 * SamB aborts and lets MarvinPA handle it 12:24:42 hey bhaak? 12:24:48 :) 12:26:41 Napkin_: yeah? 12:26:42 * SamB decides to pickaxe CMD_TARGET_FIND_PORTAL 12:26:56 Unnethack really has autoexplore now? :-O 12:27:13 for a looooong time already 12:27:29 looooong is relative! all new to me :D 12:27:43 only now the first release with it :) 12:27:51 haha :-P 12:28:00 Napkin_: it copied it from AceHack 12:28:08 r747 | bhaak | 2011-01-27 19:05:31 +0100 (Thu, 27. Jan 2011) | 2 Zeilen 12:28:12 -!- Napkin_ is now known as Napkin 12:28:17 where it works better, btw (Un doesn't track as much information as Ace) 12:28:19 Autoexplore (by Alex Smith via AceHack) 12:28:32 yes, I know I'm properly credited in Un 12:28:32 I need to update the wordpress! 12:28:34 almost 10 months 12:28:39 I just wanted to make sure I was properly credited in ##crawl-dev ;) 12:28:56 erm 9 months :) 12:29:11 it also has now colored branch stairs 12:29:25 I take it you implemented that the easy way 12:29:33 rather than the terribly botched branch ladder conversion I did in Ace? 12:29:41 closing in on dcss, you see. watch out, we're rolling up the field from behind :) 12:29:56 yes, they're still stairs :) 12:30:17 there, popup info updated! 12:30:27 ;) 12:30:33 where is this popup info of which you speak? 12:31:13 he means hover over the link on http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/ "other roguelikes" 12:31:33 i'm not sure that "with auto-explore" will impress crawl people much :) 12:31:55 heh 12:31:55 now, html dumps with links to nethackwiki.com OTOH :-) 12:32:12 well, NetHack isn't really designed for autoexplore 12:32:18 I implemented it, to see what effect it would have 12:32:25 tome doesn't feature auto-explore? 12:32:26 and it really is useful in some places 12:32:31 no, bhaak 12:33:02 if it did i might try it again 12:33:02 I don't think tome even features a Debian package anymore? 12:33:28 oh, yeah, unnethack also has a deb now :) 12:33:34 omgomg! 12:33:35 it gets so tiring manually exploring the great big forest levels that you always start it 12:33:38 awesome :) 12:33:38 start in* 12:33:42 I think autoexploring in a *band is rather missing the point 12:33:50 agreed, MarvinPA 12:34:00 which is that they're designed for people who like their games intentionally boring 12:34:09 (which is a valid market, but not IIRC the one that Crawl is aiming at) 12:34:31 autoexploring in dcss is stripping me of the experience of being able to appreciate the level design 12:35:00 that's what a big console is for, bhaak, when looking at the map :D 12:35:21 Crawl levels are too large and disorienting for me, really 12:35:32 kilobyte: you might need to change your email address now ... 12:35:34 I only get 80x24! 12:35:37 seriously, just raise the travel_delay to 70ms and you should be fine 12:35:37 in NetHack, after a while of playing a game I recognise the level layouts on sight and think about where I'm aiming 12:35:43 on Crawl, the field of view is too small to really do that 12:35:48 even though my terminal is bigger 12:35:58 bhaak: what terminal? 12:36:00 what shell? 12:36:08 when do you resize the terminal ? 12:36:23 48px size fonts just don't cut it anymore, bhaak ;> 12:36:50 Napkin: uh, that's NOT it 12:37:08 that'd give you maybe 20x12 12:37:25 you are so old-school, SamB 12:38:07 mom, i'm checking somethign 12:38:49 anyone tried brogue 1.5 yet? 12:38:51 echo `tput cols`x`tput lines` -> 166x48 12:39:00 bhaak: also, did you remember to increase the maxes in your crawlrc? 12:39:23 it's weird that people still have to do that, SamB 12:39:36 it is, yeah 12:39:39 i thought it does that automatically, at least for some people? 12:40:10 view_max_height is no longer required, but view_max_width is 12:40:27 ##### 4-f Viewport Options ################### 12:40:27 set it to 81 (max) and you'll always be happy 12:40:27 view_max_width = 53 12:40:27 view_max_height = 31 12:40:27 ##### 4-j Messages and Display Enhancements ##### 12:40:27 msg_max_height = 19 12:40:28 show_gold_turns = true 12:40:35 Napkin: oh, is that so? 12:40:44 hmm, that last one is kind of irrelevant 12:41:19 yeah, it's new that if you set msg_max_height the playfield is resized in height accordingly 12:41:19 okay, changing view_max_width on my ubuntu/bash/gnome-terminal works 12:41:22 Napkin: why is 81 the max? 12:41:40 i don't know - when i set it higher i got an error once 12:41:46 let's try my gentoo/tcsh/screen terminal, my main one 12:41:49 haven't verified it for a while though 12:42:11 Napkin: I would have that it would be clipped to 80 12:42:21 would make sense, yeah 12:42:32 whoops 12:42:50 I seem to have forgot the word "thought", or mispelled it as "that"? 12:43:08 perhaps I started to type it and skipped ahead ;-) 12:43:36 It sounds like new middle english 12:43:47 I would have that you leave. 12:43:50 etcetera 12:44:11 Napkin: will commenting out "view_max_height" cause my msg area to be the max height? 12:44:21 yes 12:44:45 it should adjust to what msg_max_height leaves 12:45:13 and if I set both ? 12:45:31 i wonder if it has something to do with gentoo's terminfo entry for xterm 12:45:32 (and the total is taller than my terminal?) 12:46:02 what happens without screen, bhaak? 12:46:06 bhaak: why, what does infocmp say that that is? 12:47:02 did i mention i use putty in linux, too? ;) much less complicated, bhaak 12:48:08 Napkin: not a solution if you're logged in remotely via ssh :) 12:48:31 direct connect not possible? 12:48:40 the one thing I hate about putty is that the Debian terminfo maintainers insist on keeping the "reset terminal width" escape in the (one of) the sequence(s) output by "reset" 12:49:31 Napkin: screen is useful for keeping your editor and such open even across reboots of the connecting machine, etc. 12:50:05 of course, no question about that 12:50:10 but keeping the game open? 12:50:10 but I seemed to be running into issues with input when I tried using crawl under it 12:50:18 adding another layer on top? 12:50:39 and crawl seems to do something *fairly* reasonable when it gets SIGHUP 12:50:51 SamB: on ubuntu it works, on gentoo it doesn't. the terminfo entry is different, for sgr, sgr0, rmm and smm, and some minor stuff 12:51:16 Napkin: keeping only one window open instead of 64 :) 12:51:25 bhaak: maybe you should really be looking at the terminfo used under screen, though 12:51:33 ah, you are one of those excessive screen users? 12:52:00 I try to keep it <=10 windows per screen instances, myself 12:52:01 SamB: i also tried running outside of screen. same effect 12:52:05 bhaak: oh 12:52:15 i always giggle at my colleagues, when they need to copy&paste from the 23rd window to the 63th window - while i just move the mouse to the second putty terminal ;-P 12:53:13 Napkin: you'd think they could attach two puttys to the same screen session for that ;-) 12:53:37 (you *can* use different windows in each, can't you?) 12:53:39 but yeah - depending on your window manager, switching windows can be more comfortable than processes 12:53:40 you can get a list of windows and also there's a key binding for switch between the last two windows :) 12:53:54 true 12:54:04 I use that heavily 12:55:00 Napkin: XP's buggy taskbar might be one reason to find it easier to switch inside screen, for example, yes ;-) 12:56:54 03MarvinPA * rb7c539afb2f2 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/descript/items.txt decks.cc): Make legendary Pain cards torment instead of mass drain, move the Torment card from destruction to punishment 12:57:02 03MarvinPA * r4347b13c8acd 10/crawl-ref/ (docs/keybind.txt source/command.cc): Document that ^C while targeting cycles through possible beam paths 12:57:02 03MarvinPA * r24e4b24f41fa 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files in 2 dirs): Make Geryon drop his horn when pacified, improve his description 12:57:03 03MarvinPA * r3dcd72c7e8e6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (spl-cast.cc spl-damage.cc): Make LRD deal no damage to monsters that can't be shattered 12:57:14 i think i have to debug it like i do at work. when all else fails, run wireshark on it :) 12:57:31 definitely weird, bhaak 12:57:31 bhaak: eh? 12:57:40 I guess you're going to use telnet ??? 12:57:57 or can wireshark snoopt TTYs, now? 12:59:15 In any case, black-box debugging *is* certainly a quite valuable technique 13:01:29 yes, i'm using telnet for connection to CDO 13:02:07 try "stty sane" before you do? 13:02:29 I don't suppose any of us happen to know putty's author? 13:07:02 i'll have to check later, i should be doing something else right now :) 13:14:10 03Keskitalo * r758c6a6f9c22 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/goblinoid.png: Add purge's goblinoid tile from #958 to UNUSED. 13:14:10 03Keskitalo * r5efc2ebb172e 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/ (undead_centaur.png undead_felid.png undead_naga.png): Add Denzi's lich form tiles from #3467 into UNUSED. 13:14:31 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:15:27 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:17:54 ...just to be sure, has anyone emailed greensnark about sequell? 13:18:20 If not, I will do so, and ask what we should do in case of issues in the future. 13:18:36 please do 13:18:50 tell him we said hi to the workaholic ;) 13:19:57 Will do :) 13:21:34 Sent! 13:23:01 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 13:23:26 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238]] 13:24:35 thanks! 13:28:00 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:28:41 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:28:58 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 13:29:23 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Client Quit] 13:29:39 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 13:30:15 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:32:07 03elliptic * rd58520b1ccbf 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Fix Ely greater healing being almost twice as strong as intended at 27 Invoc. 13:33:10 Napkin: mind updating CDO? this bug with Ely is really rather bad 13:39:34 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 13:40:02 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 13:41:11 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 13:45:47 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 13:47:03 Muwahaha at the very least, I got eclipse setup so it'll give me intelli-hints on stuff 13:47:16 I guess we'll see how intuitive it is between base and inherited classes and all that. 13:48:46 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1495-gd58520b (32) 13:48:51 done 13:51:57 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:59:11 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 14:00:13 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:02:29 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 14:02:46 * SamB sends a fairly long email to the putty dev(s) asking them to endorse removing the "resize to 80 columns" sequence from the terminfo "rs2" string used by reset(1) 14:04:05 someone should ask greensnark to make Sequell's database available for downloading 14:04:42 this is presumably needlessly complicated by use of MySQL? 14:07:04 SamB: is it urgent? We can send greensnark an email. 14:07:04 dpeg: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 14:07:09 !messages 14:07:09 (1/2) Cryp71c said (1d 16h 37m 21s ago): yeah, short of someone whose up to date on everything doing it, I don't see anyway to avoid it. Worse-case scenario, any issues from this long ago that are still worth looking into are likely small fixes anyways. 14:07:24 dpeg: no, not really 14:07:27 !messages 14:07:27 (1/1) kilobyte said (8h 56m 39s ago): Tomes of Destruction cost ~2.5k. What about cutting this by a factor of 10? They're effectively unreliable wands. 14:07:39 it's mostly a "would be nice if I could use my own query" kind of thing 14:07:42 kilobyte: fine (tome prices) 14:07:43 hmm, Napkin was right: Warning: Bad view_max_width: 100 > 81 (~/.crawlrc:149) 14:08:11 bhaak: it's not like levels can be bigger than 80x70 anyway 14:08:35 personally, I think that should be a warning + clip to valid value 14:08:37 I really should try to get the sequell scripts to work locally sometime 14:08:46 it seemed a bit tricky the last time I looked into it 14:08:59 I tried that 14:09:05 at least it's a warning now and not an error, bhaak :) 14:09:18 oh, that is a warning 14:09:30 anyway, I ran into a number of issues... 14:09:48 ... and never could get it to actually say anything! 14:09:53 I don't know enough ruby/perl to be able to fix anything nontrivial with sequell without being able to test out changes easily 14:10:18 though I *was* trying it in Henzell/Gretall mode 14:10:30 er. I spelled that wrong, didn't I? 14:10:35 gretell 14:13:19 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 14:13:21 anyway, maybe I just didn't use the right -D flags when building 14:13:32 building crawl, that is 14:13:56 *or* my perl might just be too new 14:18:15 well, okay, I guess it works for deaths 14:23:28 regarding old bugs that may or may not be worth looking into, the reporter made me take a proper look at something i resolved as cannot reproduce and i actually stumbled upon an issue 14:23:53 the shopping list only allows examining in portal vaults, not deleting or traveling 14:23:55 intentional? 14:24:51 probably no traveling is intentional to stop players from accidentally traveling out of the portal vault? 14:25:06 yeah, but deletion should be allowed 14:25:12 well, what about if they were in a bazaar 14:25:18 and had added something IN THAT BAZAAR? 14:25:20 or there should be a warning for travel 14:25:31 warning for inter-level travel, anyway 14:25:35 yeah 14:25:46 that might actually already be the case, ill check 14:26:08 G is blocked 14:26:21 oh, yeah, 14:26:32 That's a misfeature IMO 14:26:46 blocking G in portals is fine 14:26:48 but certainly deletion should be allowed 14:26:51 X travel still works after all 14:26:57 hmm, point 14:27:18 just disabling shopping list travel might be easier than only disabling inter-level travel 14:27:23 but it's still a bit inconvenient not being permitted to do it to get to the nearest exit 14:27:31 or to continue an interrupted travel.. 14:30:06 hmm 14:30:27 I may have turned milestones off again in my build options ... 14:30:38 can a dev add this to the dev-approved list of interface implementables on the wiki? 14:30:49 which? 14:30:57 deleting? 14:31:24 that's just a normal bug, isn't it? 14:31:39 well, blocking travel is intentional 14:32:18 and changing portal vaults to only blocking inter-level travel instead of all G would also be nice 14:32:57 alefury: you can add it there (no time, sorry) 14:33:08 k, sure 14:33:16 or you could add on the proposals page and one of us could move it, if you prefer 14:34:12 when a level is deleted, everything on it should be removed from the shopping list 14:34:31 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:35:04 SamB: re Sequell's database - if it's in MySQL, could consider adding a public db user with read-only access, then it can be queried with any mysql client (or even install phpmyadmin on the server) 14:35:09 the problem is, levels currently don't get deleted -- no cleanup is done when exiting them (you are at most prevented to gather that info in the first place) 14:35:36 mumra: way too easy to DoS it, even unintentionally 14:35:54 mhh, i can add that too 14:36:09 mumra: it would be much simpler to switch sequell to sqlite and allow downloading the DB 14:36:55 SamB: i'm not so sure that's as simple as you say 14:37:00 alefury: deleting levels is probably not an interface implementatable ;-P 14:37:17 mumra: it would still be simpler than figuring out how to prevent DoS! 14:38:21 hmm, perhaps, but wouldn't it be trivial to DoS with a bot that spammed the sequell web form? 14:38:25 I mean, sure you have to figure out how to allow downloading consistant copies of the DB 14:39:08 well, that doesn't allow SQL queries does it? 14:39:21 SamB: it's not just that - switching db engine usually requires rewriting lots of SQL, unless you have a good abstraction layer 14:39:37 mumra: or use sane SQL 14:39:43 mumra: at least that is usually fairly straightforward 14:40:13 mumra: creating database tends to be tied to particular dialects, actual queries usually aren't 14:40:56 whereas figuring out how to allow only "good" queries through would be harder 14:41:22 yeah, i see the point :) 14:41:24 and what if someone has a legitimate desire to do a query that would DoS? 14:41:52 they ought to be free to do that, as long as they only do it to themselves :-) 14:42:35 it might be good to release raw data you can then import into an SQL server at home 14:43:01 not in sqlite form? 14:43:50 <|amethyst> if you just release the mysqldump output, I'm sure users of other DBMSes will be able to cope. The schema stuff might need editing for DB differences, but the inserts should be fine as-is 14:44:04 hmmhmmhm.. I just can't get friendly with the new anti-grinding skill-system - even though I think it makes a lot of things better 14:44:15 Napkin: gripes ? 14:44:39 SamB: deleting levels is not an interface implementable, but deleting shopping list items when leaving a bazaar is. should i add it or not? 14:44:41 (do you want to be able to focus *harder*?) 14:44:50 |amethyst: the kind of schemas needed to hold Sequell's data are better written without mysqldump or whatever, in a standard SQL form 14:44:53 dict.leo.org: gripes [med.] - das Bauchgrimmen 14:44:55 alefury: report it as a bug 14:44:56 pardon? 14:45:05 alefury: we'll assign to kilobyte 14:45:12 lol 14:45:14 alefury: quite pointless at this moment 14:45:39 Napkin: what are your problems? 14:45:44 I mean, deletion of levels will not do this by itself, but doing it in a hacky way and then having to redo it again is a waste of time 14:46:09 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 14:46:18 kilobyte: and crawl might crash if you added deletion of levels and didn't do it, anyway ;-) 14:46:19 i don't know.. just can't get warm to it.. nor as excited as before when my skills grew 14:47:41 Certainly not needing to dance to get a skill makes it less exciting when you officially "get" it 14:48:10 i have a nice vampire necromancer and a very nice kobold gladiator (kiku).. and i just can't bring up the motivation to continue them 14:48:11 What made it more exciting (the ability to just dance a ton of XP into a skill and watch it jump up) also made it bad. 14:48:38 no, i think the fact that grinding got removed it very nice, Cryp71c 14:49:19 so, do you mean that the skill at 4.9 is almost as good as it at 5? 14:49:21 i don't know.. something's wrong ;) 14:49:25 interface/gameplay streamlining often comes with a loss of flavour or mood 14:49:43 Napkin: keep playing, or take a break. It'll come back. 14:49:58 i've been taking a break for almost 6 month already :D 14:50:35 and i can't even criticize the new skill system 14:50:45 because i think the idea is great 14:51:07 Cryp71c: I was talking about the "give training % to skill you don't have yet" dancing 14:51:14 just FYI 14:51:37 I hadn't really noticed the dancing yet in 0.8; I didn't play it for very long 14:53:09 a bit disappointing btw, that they didn't mention it in the roguelike radio episode about progression 14:53:35 (or did they? not finished listening yet) 14:54:01 Does greensark prefer british or american english? 14:54:32 now probably american ;) 14:54:57 * SamB wants to know what spelling dictionary to set git to use for hiz dcss_henzell repo 14:55:36 eh, I'll just use british... 14:56:31 SamB: always British 14:56:36 or Commonwealth, if you prefer :) 14:56:55 Napkin: I think the podcast guys have no one really familiar with Crawl. 14:57:13 john harris for example 14:57:21 but probably hasn't played it for a while 14:57:33 Napkin: he has played it, but he is not really familiar :) 14:57:46 darren grey is online in #te4 channel ;) 14:57:56 hehe 14:58:31 but it's funny still, that crawl is mentioned in the "relevant links" section of almost every episode :D 14:59:15 Napkin: they did mention it, near the end 14:59:17 rofl, john harris is so cool "I despise them!" 14:59:22 Napkin: I don't really care what they're doing there. But I would be sad/mad if they managed to do "gods in roguelikes" without actually covering Crawl properly :) 14:59:23 ah, good! 14:59:38 Napkin: despise what? 15:00:03 oh? i think it's a really funny podcast, like listening to it 15:00:29 if you'd really like to hear something funny, dpeg: http://alternativlos.org/19/ 15:00:46 (completely oot though) 15:00:48 Kann nicht von hier aus :) 15:01:30 herrje, wo treibste dich schon wieder rum! ssh, proxy ran und frei! :) 15:03:15 Assorted monster tile improvements (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4805) by roctavian 15:03:27 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:04:44 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:07:09 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 15:11:06 -!- Ragdoll has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:11:20 ??listgame 15:11:20 listgame[1/6]: !lg command displays info about past games. The manual is available here: http://github.com/greensnark/dcss_henzell/raw/master/docs/listgame.txt 15:17:44 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:13 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:20:40 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 15:20:49 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:22:48 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:25:08 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 15:26:11 -!- ais523_ is now known as ais523 15:31:21 -!- Sequelll has joined ##crawl-dev 15:34:03 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 15:34:30 elliptic: is that yours? 15:34:46 trying to get it to work, yeah 15:35:13 you might find my fork of some help 15:35:38 https://github.com/SamB/dcss_henzell 15:39:37 -!- Sequelll has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:43:12 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:44:07 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:04:25 -!- Brannock has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:05:21 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 16:08:58 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 16:20:56 !tell Zaba dammit, after wasting 3 hours, it appears the "local prelude" code is unused and not working. Any reason to not purge it? I kind of fail to see what it'd be good for. Alternatively, we could hijack it for dynamic acceptance. Another such unused chunk is VETO. Used ones: VALIDATE, EPILOGUE. 16:20:59 kilobyte: OK, I'll let Zaba know. 16:21:46 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:25:50 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:28:40 03kilobyte * r780b4cf3b097 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/ (portals/hive.des.disabled variable/lemuel_castle.des): Whitespace fixes. 16:28:51 03kilobyte * rf7f9bb240b6f 10/crawl-ref/source/branch-data.h: Make floor in the Tomb brown, to not conflict with halo. 16:28:51 03kilobyte * r65f211746790 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: Don't PLACE hallowed_hall at D:17. 16:44:31 no more yellow tomb floor 16:44:59 this will ruin my immersion 16:45:30 ha 16:46:00 you laugh 16:46:21 but i actually like to imagine that i am ninjakiller431 the skullcrusher from time to time 16:46:27 now i have been robbed of that simple joy 16:48:02 If it is important enough to someone, the colour of the halo could be changed for Tomb. 16:48:51 i'd think brown is cool 16:49:36 tomb just uses the same old floor_tomb tile that was used in crypt, tomb, zot, dis, tar 16:49:54 -!- blabber_ has quit [Quit: n8] 16:50:14 two of those get their own tiles now. it's called floor_tomb so I guess dis and tar are the ones in need of new ones 16:50:32 is brown floor used anywhere else? 16:51:06 kilobyte: what about ossuaries? 16:51:10 orc at least 16:51:44 yes 16:52:34 I think geh:1-6 use yellow floor still, if yellow is now a not-allowed colour 16:53:01 why should it be? it's not important to know if something at the edge of LOS is in halo or not 16:55:43 st_: tile folks were pretty upset about not knowing this, at least. This quite rarely makes an actual difference, though. 16:55:59 well mennas doesn't spawn in gehenna 16:56:44 dpeg, evilmike: could you tell me what the SUBST line in evilmike_marble_ring should do? 16:57:20 which SUBST line? 16:57:38 After losing a couple hours to an atoi() bug I'm adding validation to such places, and it just revealed this one being syntactically invalid. 16:57:48 SUBST: 0 = 3:9 / 7:0 / 20:0.. / *:. 16:57:58 0.. is not a valid number, and neither is . 16:58:07 interesting. 16:58:15 a weight of 0 also makes no sense 16:58:22 other way around 16:58:24 that's a weight of 20 16:58:41 can't assign weights to multiple glyphs, too 16:58:49 oh? didn't know that 16:59:17 should it be "9:3 / 0:7 / 0:20 / .:40"? With whatever that * is supposed to mean. 16:59:38 shouldn't that be an NSUBST? 16:59:39 oh, wait, I see the error 16:59:41 or that 16:59:44 yeah mumra beat me 16:59:59 kilobyte: the issue in tiles is not that you cant see whats in your own halo, its that you cant see enemy halos 17:00:00 the comment suggests it's supposed to be random 17:00:18 well, replacing 20 of the 0 glyphs with "0.." does make it random 17:00:20 early warning against dangerous monsters is pretty useful 17:00:25 kilobyte: the syntax is okay 17:00:32 it always seemed a bit confusing that SUBST and NSUBST use basically opposite syntax 17:00:41 but looking at it, it definitely should be NSUBST. 17:00:51 with a weight of 20, assign 0 (66% chance) or . (33% chance) 17:00:57 also i know there is a halo in tiles know, which is great 17:01:00 And yes, that only makes sense in an NSUBST :) 17:02:06 -!- jle_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:02:20 ~:@2 in lemuel_castle is an obvious typo (meant to be "~:@2") 17:02:39 I liked that other typo the vault had where the entire moat would be made of draconians 17:03:09 * SamB can't tell the difference between those two things 17:04:02 evilmike: i was up against that; most horrible D:27 ever :S 17:05:01 sounds like a strong contenter for "coolest bug ever" 17:05:35 SamB: NSUBST can be used to replace a specific number of things... so for example that line (is supposed to) make it so there are three 9's, 7 guaranteed 0's, and then a random number of other 0's 17:06:11 was it supposed to be whether or not there were quotes, or ? 17:10:09 03kilobyte * rc773ff4855fb 10/crawl-ref/source/mapdef.cc: Validate some atoi()s in map parsing -- they used to let errors through. 17:10:19 03kilobyte * re974713c58b7 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Fix a bunch of syntax errors in vaults. 17:10:26 looks like Yiuf's path of hammers was buggy 17:10:35 not sure if the bug wasn't cool, though :p 17:10:40 kilobyte: how so? 17:10:44 what was the bug? too many hammars? 17:11:01 the original version had only one hammer; I added the rare chance for hammer spam 17:11:35 rare, eh? 17:11:41 yes 17:11:53 I saw it often enough ... 17:12:06 It something that sticks in mind... 17:12:09 *is 17:12:13 could be 17:12:35 dpeg: after the correction, it generates only a couple or so hammers rather than a hammer on every spot :( 17:12:58 kilobyte: maybe it was misusing the thingy 17:13:31 kilobyte: noooo! 17:13:57 no time to investigate now 17:16:00 ah, I see: weight 100 for no hammers, 10 for a few, 2 for spam 17:16:17 kilobyte: looking at the changelog: the 2:d was intentional :) 17:16:21 yes 17:16:31 I admit that's rare, you'd expect d:2 in general 17:16:54 before, there was 10 for no hammers, 2 for spam 17:17:05 no 17:17:12 100 for no hammers, 10 for some, 2 for all 17:17:18 -!- phyphor has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:17:25 -SUBST: ; : .:100 ;:10 2:d 17:17:25 -SUBST: ; = .:10 2:d 17:17:25 +SUBST: ; : .:100 ;:10 d:2 17:17:25 +SUBST: ; = .:10 d:2 17:17:32 dpeg: surely 2:d means "weight d" 17:17:32 -!- phyphor has joined ##crawl-dev 17:17:37 but d isn't a number? 17:17:57 oh indeed, I fucked it up 17:18:21 and the parser happily accepted it without complaining 17:18:35 should we bring back the bug? :p 17:18:40 * dpeg prints out the NSUBST-vs-SUBST training card for dummies. 17:19:03 it might be good to flip one or the other, it's damn counterintuitive 17:19:07 kilobyte: no, it was clearly not as rare as intended (what SamB said) 17:19:57 * SamB did not see the .tex for that in the repo anywhere 17:20:13 <2% hammer spam is much better than 9% 17:20:17 SamB: was a joke 17:20:24 so was mine 17:20:36 some of mine are really bad 17:20:38 16% IIRC 17:20:48 * kilobyte loved it... :p 17:20:52 me too 17:20:57 I mean, not that I used them 17:21:01 they were just amusing 17:21:11 the hammerS? 17:21:16 yeah! 17:21:22 it works better if it is more rare, trust me 17:21:30 much better to add other insane vaults 17:22:35 yes, i really need to finish my Abyss Refuge :) 17:22:44 mumra: hi! 17:22:45 Xom hates vaults for his faithful being sane :p 17:22:49 hello :) 17:22:55 (and demigods of course ;) 17:23:16 mumra: not forgotten, really busy these days. I will not let them slip away, don't worry. 17:24:01 mumra: gnome name:leprechaun n_rpl n_spe col:green ; club unrand:shillelagh 17:24:07 me too ... when not working, my spare time has been insanely packed as well 17:24:08 03galehar * r26aaba5b272e 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-behv.cc: Fix submerged monsters not fighting back when hit with reaching (#1878). 17:24:08 03galehar * r414cac6d8abf 10/crawl-ref/source/wiz-fsim.cc: Show the skill bonus in defense simulation result. 17:24:08 03galehar * r3ee79433628a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (godpassive.cc player.cc skills2.cc skills2.h): New Ashenzari skill boost formula. 17:24:29 mumra: (doesn't work currently but if someone can make that goodness I may make it wieldable by monsters) 17:24:30 kilobyte: :) 17:25:06 I wonder... rainbow floor? 17:26:05 and a pot of gold 17:26:16 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 17:29:17 * SamB turns off wizard mode 17:30:16 kilobyte: how do you get that to work in tiles ? 17:31:19 SamB: well, didn't you copy recoloured tiles for ZotDef just yesterday? 17:31:58 kilobyte: It just seems that Tiles is *very* stupid when it comes to colors + tiles 17:33:38 you can set tiles with FTILE during map creation 17:33:58 but setting colours is more flexible (you can provide a delegate colour picking function) 17:34:16 "delegate" ? 17:34:21 regarding new vaults... is there anything I could do to help make things go faster? Such as getting detailed feedback from people, or uploading the vaults as patches rather than txt files? 17:34:30 do you mean that thing kilobyte said he took out, but seems to have forgotten to remove from the docs? 17:34:54 delegate is C# word for a function passed as a variable 17:35:02 I just ask becuase I'm pretty sure the geh and pan maps I uploaded could use balancing, and I've been holding off on making a new dis map because of that 17:35:48 mumra: oh. where I come from, we don't use a special word for those functions 17:36:03 we just call them functions 17:36:52 when we talk about the feature, we call it "first-class functions" 17:37:24 actually, delegate has a specific meaning in C# (it's a way of defining a function signature, so you can then implement a function that matches the signature, and it's all validated at compile time) 17:38:10 mumra: yeah, that sounds *much* more complicated 17:38:35 SamB: anyway, AFAIK it's still in there, it's used for Pan Disco Hall 17:39:00 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 17:39:01 probably you're thinking of a different thing than I am 17:39:32 I was thinking of the ability to define elemental colors in lua 17:39:43 SamB: yep, that's used for Pan Disco Hall 17:39:44 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:22 I guess I misunderstood kilobyte ... 17:40:47 ... because I still see the implementation of that. 17:41:03 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:help:maps:lua:modules:colour:add_colour 17:41:29 mumra: that's what you call convenient ? 17:41:32 someone suggested the function shouldn't actually be documented 17:41:43 SamB: i didn't say "convenient" .... i said "flexible" 17:41:53 I meant the page name, actually ;-) 17:42:23 * SamB doesn't find having things broken up into microscopic pages very helpful 17:43:16 SamB: i added that early on when i started doing Lua documentation ... just before you started implementing luadoc ... i was going to condense lua into bigger pages but there didn't seem any point working on it any more 17:43:28 ah 17:43:54 SamB: *but*, the idea of the web docs is that you can *browse* 17:44:04 you can go Lua Reference > Colour Module > add_colour 17:44:33 I personally find Ctrl-F vital if I want to find anything in web-based docs 17:44:34 -!- Xiberia has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:44:42 evilmike: I am not the best person to test hell and Pan maps (Pan especially). If you can convince eg. elliptic to have a look... 17:44:44 and the "Colour Module" page would show a brief summary of add_colour, then you can click on it for more detailed description 17:44:45 and that doesn't work cross-page 17:45:22 SamB: Ctrl-F is fine if you *know* what you're looking for - but quite often with a reference you're trying to find something that you don't know the name of, and you need a simple hierarchy and summaries of things 17:45:32 yeah, browsing is nice too 17:45:36 SamB: there's a search box in the top-right 17:45:49 which will happily find add_colour if you know that's what you need 17:45:50 I just like to see more of it on one page 17:46:05 dpeg: well, I've gone over them several times offline (of course other opinions are good too). Problem is, it's always wizmode testing no matter who does it... what I'd really like to do is set it up so my IRC client beeps when someone enters pan or geh, and then spectate them 17:46:08 mumra: add_colour() is thoroughly buggy... I scaled down its functionality 17:46:19 kilobyte: oh, is that what you did 17:46:31 SamB: i was going to give a page to each Lua module, when i realised how annoying it was creating a separate wiki page for each function. but then i stopped working on lua docs for reasons as described :) 17:46:45 mumra: yeah 17:46:50 mumra: now it requires every lua colour to have a C++-side enum and registration, but at least it works correctly 17:47:01 not that it's used more than once... 17:47:24 evilmike: I'll look over it during the weekend and push them. 17:48:00 alright. sorry to bug you about this 17:48:04 and thanks 17:48:06 hmm, i guess the function should just be deleted from the wiki (along with the rest of the lua reference i started on, once we have luadoc in trunk) 17:48:11 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:50:58 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:54:42 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 17:56:57 mumra: once we actually copy the information there, yeah 17:58:09 03SamB * r4fdb08d8044f 10/crawl-ref/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Merge branch 'luadoc' 18:01:06 The leprechaun hits you for 7 with a loaded stick! 18:01:16 the non-ided name looks bad in this case 18:02:34 how about "knobbed stick"? 18:02:38 kilobyte: what does the " for 7" have to do wtih it? 18:03:35 debug mode? 18:04:02 ... cheaters and their debug modes ... 18:04:36 you mean, what's the point of debugging something without debug mode? 18:05:08 I guess you meant it sounded silly regardless? 18:05:46 How about an unloaded stick? 18:06:29 suppose he's got a pointed stick! 18:06:33 as in, "staff" or "club"? 18:06:40 or what Zannick said :) 18:06:58 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:08:27 suggestion: discontinue your self defence lessons! 18:09:12 "suppose he's got a katana!" "shut up!" 18:13:37 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 18:13:57 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:16:02 or a banana 18:16:32 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:16:40 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:16:48 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfIkMXw_YM4 18:18:31 MarvinPA_: the ghoul chunk thing is definitely different from in 0.8 (latest thing I have locally), I don't know if it's intentional but the point of a ghoul is you eat what you just killed to get your HP back 18:18:58 hm, maybe it changed unintentionally with all the food stuff 18:19:22 but that was reverted right? 18:19:32 true 18:19:39 but then bits were re-implemented 18:19:42 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 18:19:55 and i remember looking at how ghouls were handled and it was really weird and complicated 18:20:05 before the reform stuff, that is 18:25:52 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238]] 18:26:54 due: you never want to mention those 18:27:03 it's, like, a death sentence! 18:30:04 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:31:50 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 18:34:25 Ghouls no longer get sufficient health back from eating non-rotten chunks (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4806) by st 18:36:18 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 18:39:13 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]] 18:45:32 mumra, evilmike: would you have an idea for a design of the leprechaun vault? 18:46:06 * evilmike suddnely gets traumatic flashbacks of trying to fight nethack leprichaun rooms 18:46:48 drop all your gold, hit hit hit hit hit hit 18:47:15 this one prefers killing to stealing 18:47:39 perhaps have the leprichaun in a sort of forest clearing. I think it should be a forest, anyway (note: I have no idea what actual irish leprechaun myths are like) 18:48:19 shamrocks 18:48:23 loads of them 18:49:01 leprechaun and floor colours: http://sprunge.us/cDfe 18:49:08 and beer 18:49:26 nice, it has devastator 18:50:08 03kilobyte * r4d1b0174fed7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (art-func.h spl-damage.cc): Make the shillelagh usable by monsters. 18:50:09 03kilobyte * r58f55f563f93 10/crawl-ref/source/art-func.h: Fix the shillelagh shattering stuff on a miss. 18:50:09 03kilobyte * r5e55e7d343ce 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Move the one-vault wonder gnome from 'q' to 'g'. 18:50:13 they're supposed to be associated with trickery, right? spells like blink and invisible seem appropriate 18:50:17 ?? shillelagh 18:50:17 devastator[1/1]: The shillelagh "Devastator". Appears as a loaded stick. It's a +2, +4 club that casts radius 1 shatter when you hit something with it, centered on the thing you hit. 18:50:18 or, for something sillier, summon butterflies 18:50:23 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:50:27 but what *is* a shillelagh 18:50:35 Zannick: it's a knobbly stick 18:50:51 jfgi ;) 18:50:53 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shillelagh_(club) 18:50:57 already there :P 18:51:06 what the heck is a loaded stick? 18:51:43 because I have neeever heard that term before 18:51:54 oh, i was pronouncing that wrong 18:51:58 >.< 18:52:03 she-lay-lee :) 18:52:20 !learn add shillelagh she-lay-lee 18:52:39 shillelagh[2/2]: she-lay-lee 18:53:18 interestingly enough in Irish it's sail eille 18:53:23 !learn add shillelagh a wooden walking stick, club, or cudgel, associated with Irish folklore. 18:53:23 shillelagh[3/3]: a wooden walking stick, club, or cudgel, associated with Irish folklore. 18:53:29 which implies that it's "sil-ale-lee" 18:53:31 hmm.. leprichauns are associated with rainbows, so perhaps there should be mist clouds 18:53:37 !learn move shillelagh[1] shillelagh[3] 18:53:37 shillelagh[1] -> shillelagh[3/3]: see {devastator} 18:53:46 ?? shillelagh 18:53:46 shillelagh[1/3]: she-lay-lee 18:53:50 ?? shillelagh[2] 18:53:52 shillelagh[2/3]: a wooden walking stick, club, or cudgel, associated with Irish folklore. 18:53:54 ?? shillelagh[3] 18:53:55 devastator[1/1]: The shillelagh "Devastator". Appears as a loaded stick. It's a +2, +4 club that casts radius 1 shatter when you hit something with it, centered on the thing you hit. 18:54:02 :) 18:54:12 probably the first entry should be the actually useful one 18:54:16 in general :P 18:54:25 for the floor of the vault, I think using pebble is better than rough 18:54:25 say no to gimmick vaults. 18:54:41 MarvinPA: always 18:54:56 oh, yeah. 18:55:03 !learn mv shillelagh[3] shillelagh[1] 18:55:04 shillelagh[3] -> shillelagh[1/3]: see {devastator} 18:55:10 !learn mv shillelagh[2] devastator[2] 18:55:11 shillelagh[2] -> devastator[2/2]: she-lay-lee 18:55:14 !learn mv shillelagh[2] devastator[3] 18:55:14 shillelagh[2] -> devastator[3/3]: a wooden walking stick, club, or cudgel, associated with Irish folklore. 18:55:18 but isn't the pronounciation more useful? :P 18:55:32 although now that's a bit weird but ah well 18:55:35 people want to use the learndb for actual game information 18:55:46 can we nuke bad_ideas yet 18:55:59 yeah, but devastator is a shillelagh, that's why i put it like that originally 18:56:57 MarvinPA: rax may, at her discretion 18:57:50 although i'm sure it'd only grow back 18:57:51 :P 18:58:06 if the script is ever updated, should put a cap on learndb entries... say, 10 items 18:58:18 st_: a number of other unrands have their vaults, and this one has an obvious theme 18:58:20 that would probably do the trick, yeah 18:58:34 and then if people make bad_ideas_2, set them on fire 18:58:34 what about tso? and god gift? 18:58:36 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 18:58:42 ??tso 18:58:43 the shining one[1/5]: One of three 'good gods'. Provides a number of passive favors as well as active abilities later. Enjoys killing of evil creatures, and forbids use of poison, evil magic, attacking fleeing or sleeping intelligent creatures, or cannibalism. 18:58:48 oh, thats only 5 now 18:59:04 alefury: if something needs 10 entries to explain then it's not being explained properly :P 18:59:12 Henzell's zotdef messages definitely need work 18:59:14 ??god gift 18:59:14 divine gift[1/8]: No gifts if penance or gift timeout. Otherwise, if gifting is considered, you may get something according to your god and piety... Gaining piety reduces the gift timeout. 18:59:20 hm, even that has only 8 18:59:21 Zannick: I wonder if nuking the name would be good, leaving just "shillelagh" with some adjective 18:59:22 probably the sprint ones, too 18:59:36 Makhli the Grave Robber (L6 DDNe) became a worshipper of Makhleb on turn 714. (D:1) 18:59:37 Makhli the Grave Robber (L6 DDNe), worshipper of Makhleb, on D:1 (Scenario I: Hall of Zot : zotvault), with 329 points after 763 turns and 0:16:58. 18:59:55 anyway, good night 19:00:05 -!- alefury has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:00:27 i'm looking at the full learndb now 19:00:55 apropos randarts, 40 19:01:38 i think most of the ones over 10 are just collections of silly things 19:01:56 yes, and those are the ones that should be nuked :P 19:02:04 they should be archived 19:02:08 the only ones I think have a legit reason to be long are the ones that are indexes of interesting things... eg hilarious_deaths 19:02:40 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 19:02:54 challenges 19:03:35 ...what 19:03:37 ?? crawl[13] 19:03:38 crawl[13/13]: ヽ(メ˃Д˂)シ ≡⌨ 19:03:45 oh, ahaha 19:03:54 that renders poorly in my current browser 19:05:19 btw I asked this yesterday and got no answer, so I'll try again: is set_border_fill supposed to do anything outside of portal vaults? 19:05:48 haha, famous_last_words 19:06:20 lots of temples use it 19:06:34 hmm 19:06:52 I was playing around with set_border_fill to see if I could replace the border of coc_mu with permarock, since currently it is surrounded by a ring of permarock with normal rock behind it (you can actually use shatter to teleport into this) 19:07:00 didn't work, though 19:07:32 found this comment in temple.des: 19:07:33 # XXX: Most or all of the water temple maps could use open sea borders 19:07:33 # from the shoals. But the line 19:07:33 # : set_border_fill_type("open_sea") 19:07:33 # does not work. 19:07:34 and fuk_da_sac is a collection of scroll names 19:07:34 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 19:08:06 evilmike: it's... complicated 19:08:29 evilmike: basically, set_border_fill_type does not and cannot work. 19:08:34 fun 19:09:11 it's used in a trove where it seems to work 19:09:23 yes, because it's an encompass portal vault. :) 19:09:48 there's a bit of complicated magic as to how it all gets put together 19:09:53 ah 19:10:02 basically, the border fill type is /already/ decided when the temple goes looking for maps to use 19:10:39 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:41 i recall putting in a hack that went "oh hay we're making a portal vault, let's check if it has a border_Fill_type property set and use that instead!" 19:10:50 aka, BLACK MAGIC 19:10:51 heh 19:11:07 I used a trick to make endless lava work in the geh map I uploaded 19:11:15 it relies on there being no normal rock anywhere in the level though 19:11:58 did you just swap all rock glyphs for lava 19:12:23 so you mean I can't actually fly forever over the endless lava sea?! 19:13:15 yeah it replaces all rock_wall with endless_lava 19:13:57 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 19:15:58 I did Cool Magic to get the "endless lava" border of that one Lair map to work properly. 19:16:12 Though now I will angst that it got changed at some point in time; that would seriously suck. 19:18:32 in tiles, I see normal lava, then one square of endless lava right at the map border, and then blackness 19:19:53 console too. Was it ever different? 19:20:07 last time I checked, which was recently, it was still endless 19:20:13 demon ending, right? 19:20:25 evil_forest 19:20:34 evil forest, yes 19:20:41 evilmike: It was a rock border for some time 19:20:46 ahh 19:21:15 when I was making my geh map I was getting rock past the endless lava, and then found out I could break the rock, and blink past the endless lava 19:21:37 or teleport, rather 19:21:42 -!- elliptic_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:22:06 The evil_forest map works simply because it relies on the fact that orient places it against the border, and putting rock on the edge of the map, the map builder is clever and goes "OOH BORDER". 19:22:07 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:22:22 It doesn't look to see if you break that border with lava at any point -- and if you do, you just get blackness. :D 19:22:42 -!- elliptic_ is now known as elliptic 19:29:22 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 19:32:39 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 19:36:08 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 19:36:49 Evenin 19:37:04 Hello 19:37:42 Pingas what are you up to around these parts? Do you tend to just hang out and spy on the inner workings of ##crawl-dev, or perhaps help out as an updater? 19:38:07 I mostly spy, but also do some tiles. 19:40:09 I see, are you on Mantis as an updater? 19:41:24 Now I am. My first tiles I mostly uploaded the finished 32x32 transparent files to a dev who would implement them. 19:41:52 After registering on Mantis I've only uploaded 1 issue. 19:42:07 Which was the doll tile for the tentacles of .10's new "beastly appendage". 19:42:31 Gotcha, well...cool! Keep an eye out for Tiles issues you might be able to fix and feel free to assign them to yourself if they're appropriate to your specialty and skill level. 19:42:47 I'm trying to get everyone to help clean up mantis with regard to the categories of things that they work on specifically. 19:43:29 I see. 19:45:23 kilobyte: was just looking at recent commits - you realise those fruiting_plant vaults have no DEPTH and will never spawn? 20:03:32 G'night 20:03:33 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:27:32 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 20:43:13 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:46:55 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:49:19 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:54:39 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 20:55:10 Spelling mistake religion.cc (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4807) by mumra 20:58:24 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:08:09 03edlothiol * rfb560b76a08f 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Fix a spelling mistake (mumra). 21:14:25 can anyone help me with git ... i'm starting to get "To prevent you from losing history, non-fast-forward updates were rejected" 21:14:49 this is when i'm working in a fork of crawl, and i've just merged in all the latest changes from master 21:15:05 and now i can't push :( 21:19:39 mumra: did the pull from master actually commit? 21:19:55 mumra: also, were you working in a separate branch? 21:20:03 it didn't commit, there were conflicts 21:20:10 yes i'm working in a branch 21:20:29 weird, I don't know why it would be giving you conflicts if you didn't fiddle with the master branch 21:20:48 because the changes in my branch conflicted with the latest changes in trunk 21:22:52 mumra: what is the name of your branch ? 21:23:17 ok ... it seems i was misunderstanding "tracked branch" ... not sure if that was the problem, i force-pushed already 21:23:43 my branch is : https://gitorious.org/~mumra/crawl/mumra-crawl-2/commits/demigods 21:25:08 actually, maybe i wasn't misunderstanding ... git is just damn confusing ! 21:31:04 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:48:36 -!- greensnark has joined ##crawl-dev 22:16:31 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 22:16:34 Evening 22:16:35 Again 22:17:19 evening 22:17:20 Cryp71c apparently lives on a planet with a faster revolution speed 22:17:26 Wensley, :) 22:17:32 Don't let the secret out 22:20:45 don't worry, we won't tell! 22:21:06 (we say as the channel log is available net-wide) 22:28:21 I'm still a fairly new player (though I recently finished my first 15-runer), one thing that has really bugged me is how undead/demon heavy the late game is. 22:28:35 Does that not raise any concerns in terms of game balancing? 22:29:23 As gods or other character options are rendered obsolete, and some become vastly overpowered. 22:29:59 Pingas, probably that sentiment is on the devwiki in like five places 22:30:18 Pingas: it's been that way since linley first envisioned it, and I really doubt he thought that people would still be playing this game fifteen years later and worrying about the undead-heavy endgame 22:30:33 which is to say, it's hard to get support for massive changes such as that 22:31:00 that's why there are proposals for e.g. different pandemonium levels with different monster sets, etc. 22:31:05 gradual change is the easiest kind for a project at this stage of maturity 22:31:07 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:31:12 like new pan levels, yes 22:31:26 and the new holy monsters 22:32:20 I realize it's not a likely possibility to revamp concepts like that - however, upon further expansion of the world, perhaps aiming for a non undead/demon branch would be wise? 22:32:37 expansion is less likely than occasional replacement 22:32:37 that's where my dwarf factory branch fits in :) 22:32:45 like the swamp/shoals/snake rotation 22:33:19 I think it would be seriously hard to make a dwarf branch an actual extended endgame challenge 22:33:26 you'd need to completely redo dwarf monsters, at least 22:33:40 the current set of dwarf monsters need completely redoing imo 22:33:51 The death knights and unborn are pretty good, I think 22:34:01 necromancers are also decent, or at least half of them are 22:34:18 my problem with the dwarfs is they're all basically player classes 22:34:25 "artificer", "fighter", etc. 22:34:44 there's no deep dwarf fighter 22:34:51 except for unborns, obviously (but i don't actually understand what they're supposed to be...) 22:34:58 you're thinking of berserkers (also not a bad enemy, although they are similar to spriggan berserkers) 22:35:26 there just doesn't seem to much originality in the set, except for 1 or 2 examples 22:35:47 i like that they reflect player characters 22:36:09 it adds some realism for me 22:36:09 they're the only monsters that do so, which seems out of place to me 22:36:23 there are attempts at symmetry in general 22:36:33 and you're talking about "realism" in a game that features octopodes?? ;) 22:36:41 like 'annihilator' monsters and the annihilator title for conjurations, etc. 22:36:45 yeah 22:36:46 well clearly it needs it =P 22:38:29 deep dwarf death knights dont really mirror player death knights at all, anyway 22:38:51 (the player doesn't get to spam summon undead) 22:39:00 anyway; my factory branch includes a bunch of souped-up golems, and some new environmental dangers. there are also other discussions about deep dwarves being a late-D threat. they can easily be appropriated for the late game. 22:39:57 be very careful how you deal with golems... at the moment they are some of the least fun and least interesting monsters in the game 22:41:01 i had this idea of "prototype golems" ... since the factory makes weapons, armour, and golems ... sometimes the engineers test out new designs 22:41:23 they have unique abilities and are a lot tougher than normal golems, but somewhat unstable ... 22:41:40 well, thats better than the status quo, which is just high hp + high ac + slow 22:46:01 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 22:47:21 it's just a bunch of ideas (which of course might never transpire) but everything is a pretty strong threat 22:47:44 that's good 22:48:00 e.g. a type of crystal golem that can fire various beam weapons by refracting magical light through its prismic body 22:48:01 it would be interesting to see if it's possible to have an extended endgame branch that doesn't spam torment and hellfire 22:48:12 slime shows this is possible, although slime is easier than some others 22:50:05 yep 22:50:43 deep dwarves are interesting, because you can have stuff with healing/support spells, as well as powerful earth magic (which is currently quite under-represented) 22:51:18 I think healers are underused as support enemies 22:51:29 It still shares one of the problems that the pile of demon/undead-branches have as well: Lack of corpses. 22:51:48 I think it would be interesting to have a monster that heals a band it generates with, perhaps as a passive effect. Not to force you to kill it first, just to encourage you 22:51:51 I had an idea for statues for a dwarf branch that would heal enemy dwarves within a certain radius 22:52:01 a statue would be less interesting 22:52:06 yeah, probably 22:52:39 (unless it also had guaranteed blink other... magnet statue!) 22:54:16 dwarf branch needs conveyor belts 22:54:17 I think of all the branch ideas on the wiki right now, this is the best one: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:branch:autumnal_ruins 22:54:37 i have at least two healer monsters in my dwarf notes ... a physician that casts heal other, regen other, haste other ... and a deep dwarf engineer that can repair golems 22:55:11 Wensley: conveyor belts are already in the plan 22:55:19 excellent 22:55:27 and switches. and crushers :) 22:56:04 that stuff sounds like it would be hard to make work 22:57:05 will have to have a terminator golem that can only be killed by being lured into a crusher 22:57:08 evilmike: you mean the environmental stuff? certainly, but it's what you need in a factory ... 22:59:39 evilmike: i like the theme of the ruins branch, but its reusing a lot of existing undead; the seasons idea is really good but also really complicated! 23:00:10 I think the autumnal ruins idea is to go into a rotation with crypt 23:00:23 Wensley: terminator absolutely needs to be a prototype golem ! 23:00:40 Wensley: you can also melt it in lava 23:00:44 the xterminator 23:00:58 make him use a non-standard color and a unicode glyph 23:01:06 only people on xterm will be able to see him 23:01:26 and the seasons idea was just like, have a different season on each level... although I remember that being put aside, since spring/summer would be too "alive" 23:01:41 I think I have a lot of concerned similar to Pingas. I did my first 15 rune game a few days ago. 23:01:52 Basically, I think everything involving the hells and Pan suck. 23:02:56 evilmike: it's just not very distinct from Crypt, mostly just tiles and flavour. but I'd still like to see it as a portal branch. 23:03:03 I think they're fun and challenging branches. Though it's not the branch itself I'm concerned about. 23:03:28 I thought Pan was mind numbingly boring and hell effects were just annoying. 23:03:29 evilmike: could just have it so that the first level used a pale green/sparse brown color scheme, and got ever more autumnal as you descended 23:03:33 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 23:03:37 Perhaps I just ended up with a too-powerful character. 23:03:42 My concerns revolve around the lack of varied monsters (in terms of everything being undead/demon, and no corpses). 23:03:53 Fyren: just curious, how did you do pan? did you explore each level, or just dive as quickly as you could? 23:04:10 As it renders many gods and character options obsolete, and others vastly overpowered. 23:04:13 Fyren: my experiences also - i have only complete one 15 runer (and it was also fairly recently) 23:04:22 evilmike: Too much time exploring. 23:04:29 At some point I just kept using portals. 23:04:46 Fyren: that is how you are supposed to do pan 23:04:49 you shouldn't explore pan... while that's an option it's quicker (and more fun) to just dive through it quickly 23:04:56 !hs fyren 23:04:57 18. Fyren the Farming Conqueror (L27 MfGl), worshipper of The Shining One, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2011-10-20, with 8498907 points after 206202 turns and 26:04:00. 23:05:01 That doesn't make it any better. It's not any more "fun." 23:05:20 to you, maybe. Plenty of people like it 23:05:32 although more variety would be good 23:05:35 Fyren: it is more fun to challenge yourself and create tension through play that is less safe 23:05:38 Fyren/Pingas: you should both look at the wiki discussions on these things ... firstly, the number of exit portals is being increased ... secondly, there are ideas to make pan very different, and discussions about making hell effects less annoying. these are all generally accepted problems. 23:05:59 hell effect proposals I read all seem to suggest making them more annoying :P 23:06:26 hell is so, so much less annoying after banishment was removed 23:06:31 indeed 23:06:37 miss u, banishment :( 23:06:38 hell branches are awesome anyway 23:07:04 Hell was perhaps the most exciting part of all my crawling. 23:07:08 OTOH, "extended endgame" is not something so many devs seem to be that bothered about - they're more keen on making the main game better, extended is only there for people who really want to punish themselves by carrying on playing :) 23:08:27 mumra: Do you have any links to the topic discussion? 23:08:58 I think pan is the one that's really neglected, the others are good. Tomb can't really be improved, slime has a lot of unique details, hell is interesting, abyss got a complete overhaul 23:09:18 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:branch:pan 23:09:23 Thanks. 23:09:24 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:branch:hells 23:09:29 Abyss... is something you fear when low level and is just taking up your time when you're not or you're fast. 23:09:42 I complained a lot about overhauled abyss and it didn't seem to get noticed 23:09:49 hahahaha "use a labyrinth" layout under gehenna 23:09:51 who added that 23:10:28 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 23:10:34 heh 23:10:50 also, Wensley had an idea for a pesitlence hell 23:11:06 rivers of pus, blood, and urine! 23:11:10 I still avoid the abyss as much as possible, but my limited experience with the new abyss makes me think it still morphs too fast 23:11:32 evilmike: My impression of pan when I first entered recently was: The rune levels are great fun. The suspence leading up to the boss battle, and the battle itself is really exciting. Excellent level design. But what put me off was all the non-rune levels. 23:11:42 They are many, and frequent. But at that level, they aren't really a threat. 23:12:05 So it really just becomes a tedious act, hoping for the next cool rune-level 23:12:06 Pingas: pan is wildly variable. at its worst, it can be the most dangerous branch 23:12:28 Pingas: about a month ago I submitted a ton of minivaults for the normal pan levels, they are mostly harder than the current ones... should at least add some variety 23:13:03 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:13:07 there's also ideas of a holy pan level, but there are issues with that 23:14:25 Pingas/Fyren: of course, if you want to make those areas of crawl more interesting, you can start learning to write vault definitions :) it's pretty easy once you get into it ... 23:14:28 how long does it take you to go between unique pan levels, btw...? for me I'd say it's never more than 5 minutes 23:14:32 probably closer to 2 minutes 23:15:07 Wensley: I can obviously only speak from my experience (one visit in .10), but going through 15-ish non-rune levels, all I saw was low threat demons and the occational (and trivial) random pan-lord. 23:15:09 actually that's too low an estimate, but whatever. it's quick! 23:15:36 Pingas: correct, on average pan is much easier than hell, but with much nastier spikes 23:15:53 Basically the non-rune levels just come off as tedious, especially with the really cool rune-levels. 23:16:04 current random pan lord vaults mostly just have a pan lord surrouned by a few "any demon"... which tends not to be too tough 23:16:13 sometimes it's only like 3 demons, too 23:19:07 mumra: I am currently reading up on syntax for vault creation. However, new vaults won't save pan's non-rune chambers, or any of the general over-arching issues with the late game. 23:19:41 you can skip those too, btw. there are 3 vaults with a guaranteed demonic rune, often hard to miss 23:20:58 Why is Tomb considered good? It is a completely static, extremely tedious branch with the luring and resting off curses unless you're undead. 23:21:25 In reality, the sequence of non-rune levels between rune-levels in pan basically become "run from portal to portal past low threat demons" 23:23:30 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 23:23:45 i don't find tomb that tedious, i've done it with most types of characters too (only once with tso, oddly) 23:24:05 Pingas / RichardHawk / Fyren: it's easy to criticize, and these complaints have been leveled before. if you really want to be constructive, you can start writing patches :) 23:24:26 the only part i find truly tedious is the big hallway in the 2nd visit to tomb:1... I love the rest of it though. Especially the tomb:2 ambush and finding a way to deal with the horde on t:3 without getting overwhelemed 23:24:30 the sphinx fight is cool too 23:24:50 Fair enough, I was just curious because the general opinion seems to be tomb is good and I'm trying to understand that point of view 23:24:54 Mm 23:25:10 I find that if you can deal with one greater mummy you've solved the branch 23:25:11 the levels are very well designed 23:25:15 and then it's 30 minutes of tedium 23:25:16 well, from a level design perspective I think tomb is incredible. There are so many great ideas packed in there 23:25:18 Pingas: personally i found pan pretty interesting whilst i was still finding unique content (e.g. disco hall, hellion island, ignacio) - it was when i went thru about 30 pan levels without anything new or finding an exit vault that i started wanting to gouge out my eyeballs 23:25:20 Wensley: I think more likely my ideas would be shot down. When I have brought up, for example, variance in monster action/AI, I was mostly poo-pooed about it. 23:25:45 I think there's a reason no one has ever made alternate tomb layouts... no one can come up with anything better (or as good) 23:25:58 Fyren: let them poo-poo all they want, if you make a patch that is fun then people will play it and will campaign for it 23:26:24 "if you can deal with one greater" doesn't help you when tomb:2 swarms you with 4 and some priests and tomb:3 can do the same with even more 23:26:40 I think the tomb layout is really well done. 23:26:43 I've never been in a situation where I couldn't stairdance them all 23:26:46 Wensley: that's true, but it can be disheartening if you write a patch and it doesn't get accepted; better to discuss ideas first :) 23:27:06 Not only is it generally interesting to play in, but it manages to give the feeling of the tomb it's supposed to be. 23:27:34 Fyren: i've submitted various ideas and something like 95% of them have been shot down - but it's worth it for the 5% that are actually good and get accepted 23:27:41 it's also interesting how it's the only fully fixed branch in the game... you can plan fairly elaborate strategies because of this 23:28:15 Fyren: and you gradually get a feel for what does and doesn't work, currently only about 50% of my ideas get immediately slammed ;) 23:30:38 To be honest, it seems more likely I'd either try talking to dtsund or just stop playing, forking it myself probably won't get anywhere. 23:32:06 I've lurked in here for months to try to get a feel for what devs were thinking on the gameplay design front. 23:37:50 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:37:54 Fyren: you don't need to do a full fork if you have an idea that you'd like to see in the game, you can just create a branch of crawl with your modifications and host it somewhere for people to try out (this is how octopodes were born) 23:37:55 Either way, it's 6:37 in the morning over here, and I've yet to sleep. 23:38:02 Good night. 23:38:10 yes, sleep would be good 23:39:06 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:39:13 Wensley: surely you need a fork to create the branch? 23:43:50 -!- chukamok has joined ##crawl-dev 23:45:51 Fyren: anyway, don't be put off when someone doesn't like an idea, it's something that happens in any creative team and you have to just soak it up. 23:46:03 Fyren: even an idea that nobody likes can lead onto something else 23:46:17 mumra: branches are themselves forks, the idea is just that you get them back into the main branch once your modifications are sufficiently polished 23:46:42 Fyren: the first idea i ever posted on the tavern was hated by everyone, but actually led onto having the backgrounds menu categories 23:46:55 oh I hate that :) 23:47:47 Wensley: there you go, there's no such thing as a feature that everyone will like :) 23:48:11 -!- twb has joined ##crawl-dev 23:48:28 to sleep 23:48:43 I went to my /usr/src/crawl for the first time in months, and git pull said "I ain't got nothin' for ya, man!" -- so WTF? 23:48:50 ok, sleep is an idea we can all agree on :) 23:48:57 git describe says 0.8.0-a0-5186-g0995cfe -- does that look like the current version? 23:49:13 twb: are you on a branch? you might need to specify to pull from origin/master 23:49:22 master here 23:49:38 twb: what repository is origin? 23:49:52 git://crawl-ref.git.sf.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref 23:49:57 ah 23:50:02 it's moved to gitorious 23:50:20 http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl 23:50:25 https://git.gitorious.org/crawl/crawl.git 23:50:39 Does git:// work there? 23:50:47 git://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl.git 23:50:52 Yep 23:50:53 it's all on the gitorious page 23:51:55 Yeah I haven't touched crawl in ages because I broke unicode support on my build somehow and ICBF fixing it or using ascii 23:52:17 I'll grab from gitorious and whinge loudly if I have any trouble 23:52:57 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:56:17 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:57:22 -!- chukamok has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330]]