00:03:30 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:08:10 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 00:18:04 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:18:50 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1382-g65724be 00:40:04 moin 00:40:06 and again: 00:40:18 make: *** No rule to make target `contrib/install/x86_64-linux-gnu/include/pcre.h', needed by `libunix.o'. Stop. 00:44:49 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 00:47:42 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:48:26 Needle of frenzy description implies it's fairly useless (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4776) by ion_frigate 00:51:30 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 00:52:19 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 00:56:36 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10:45 -!- dtsund_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:11:02 -!- dtsund has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:11:06 -!- dtsund_ is now known as dtsund 01:12:24 atrodo (L14 FeBe) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster Mara failed to pathfind to (39,17) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 01:16:07 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:17:05 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 01:39:46 -!- evilmike has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:46:40 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:00:16 Well that bug report is true, even if the original implied functionality wouldn't make it useless. 02:10:56 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:14:10 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:15:11 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 02:32:15 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 02:35:18 !seen evilmike 02:35:18 I last saw evilmike at Wed Oct 19 06:39:47 2011 UTC (55m 31s ago) quitting with message Read error: Connection reset by peer. 02:36:00 hi dpeg 02:37:15 Hi everyone! 02:37:19 Thanks elliptic! 02:37:49 elliptic: I am gonna adjust the slaying prices? 02:37:52 !seen nrook 02:37:52 I last saw nrook at Tue Aug 23 16:13:43 2011 UTC (8w 15h 24m 9s ago) quitting with message Quit: Lost terminal. 02:39:18 dpeg: I already decreased them by a bit, though maybe a bit more decreasing would be good... I don't really know 02:40:46 elliptic: ah, great. You also made +1 rings less probable? 02:53:06 I'm adjusting unrands. An interesting thing: ##crawl tends to describe the cutlass as massively overpowered, yet it's just a regular sabre of speed people tend to ignore, with -3,+1 enchantment. 02:54:38 kilobyte: -3,+1? 02:54:54 Also, it used to be overpowered but then speed got nerfed right? 02:56:42 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:57:28 ghallberg: had +3 slaying in 0.7, +2 in 0.8/9. This corresponds to a +6,+10 sabre with low skill, +6,+11 with high 02:57:38 ah 02:59:51 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 03:01:43 I ponder adding an artefact field "base damage", to allow for more one-off weapon types. 03:02:41 kilobyte: for randart with modefied name, yes? (like cutlass) 03:03:07 yeah 03:16:17 On the forum there were complaints about the spell success adjectives. As always, players campaign for percentages, but I don't want percentages. What about displaying fail chances as in "Fail: one in [number]" instead? 03:17:39 "Epic Fail, Mega Fail, Fail, Near Fail, Not Fail" 03:18:33 * dpeg gives BlastHardcheese a good beating with a flail. 03:19:18 y u hate me :( 03:19:24 I think words are fine but if you never want to use a combat spell below great or excellent, the words should reflect that. 03:20:37 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: I love my HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 03:20:56 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 03:21:16 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 03:23:39 * dpeg feels misunderstood. The message on the II screen would be: "1 in 14" 03:23:47 i.e. you can expect one in 14 castings to go wrong 03:24:19 I believe this is much more useful than "93%" 03:25:08 I understood, but the reason the words are bad isn't because they're words but because they're the wrong words. 03:25:21 But I moved beyond words?! 03:25:54 But you said you didn't like numbers?! 03:25:58 The problem with adjectives for spell success is that "good" means completely different things (number ranges) for Blink than for Invis, say. 03:26:10 Fyren: I said I don't like percentages!! 03:28:58 BlastHardcheese: you forgot "Gnome3 Fail" 03:30:08 not sure if you can't reach that level for a L9 spell, with 1 int 1 str, in a CPM, with 0 Spc/skill/Armour, with Sif and Kiku penance, and so on, though 03:31:27 kilobyte: you get me interested in this Gnome3 thing 03:32:44 dpeg: you'd better start with Linus' and ESR's opinions. They're wrong though: you can't describe it with only mild profanity like they did. 03:34:10 Gnome3 basically throws everything out, replacing the whole UI with those used on early iPhones 03:35:25 for example, there's no menu... just a list of big icons. You can either go through 200+ installed programs (an O(n) operation) or type something in a search bar. 03:35:33 kilobyte: you seem familiar with the topic. Got a good link? 03:35:46 compare this with a 2-3 level regular hierarchical menu with 5-10 entries at every level 03:36:03 This machine is running Gnome 2.28.2. 03:36:21 plus, no more shortcuts or launchers so you can't access things you use frequently in a fast way 03:36:25 kilobyte: perhaps they fired their main designer and hired a new one :) 03:36:57 or, you can't run the same program twice. Trying to (choosing from the list) will instead switch to the old instance. 03:37:22 what, the only program you need to run is a web browser, right 03:37:28 GNOME 3 takes elegance to a new level. Every part has been carefully crafted to give it a harmonious, beautiful, look and to make it simple and easy-to-use. 03:39:05 Found the Linus stuff. Using Xfce instead, I've been doing that too at another machine. 03:39:47 ESR's writeup: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=3822 03:40:11 thanks 03:41:22 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 03:42:32 BlastHardcheese: you already need multiple profiles: neither Chrome nor Firefox allows a completely different set of extensions when using TOR (high privacy) but not regularly (basic privacy, functionality); you may at most disable everything. 03:43:32 fortunately any environment BUT Gnome3 makes that easy: you can have two different menu entries, one with the regular profile, one with Tor 03:44:02 yet Gnome3 doesn't allow two entries for the same program 03:45:00 perhaps it might be doable with a symlink or a wrapper and some hackery, but meh 03:45:36 tor, isn't that something terrorists use 03:46:16 oh, and the biggest, totally disqualifying thing: network-manager. Gnome3 is intimately tied with it, even Debian Gnome maintainers refused to make it installable without N-M. 03:47:00 since N-M conflicts with any networking more complex than one interface (and DHCP only!), it's no go for me 03:48:20 heck, my home box is not even a router: just a regular desktop that runs VirtualBox/lxc virtual machines and has USB networking configured so I can copy things to/from the phone ten times faster than over wifi 03:52:20 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:52:35 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 03:55:56 kilobyte: hey, folks are quite agitated. 03:56:19 Nonetheless, I keep suggesting "Fails: 1 in 10" to replace "Success: good". 03:57:12 sounds good 03:57:30 It is the least intrusive number I can think of. 03:57:33 cool 03:57:47 kilobyte: gotta have to convince our sysadmin to shun Gnome3 then. 03:58:46 Will ask a bit more, then make an Implementable. 04:00:13 dpeg: I support 1 in 10. 04:01:14 yay :) 04:01:47 dpeg: what distribution do you use? 04:01:51 The system is good at the high end (where we want it) but coarse at 1 in 1 and 1 in 2. We may replace those two by adjectives or "Stay away!" 04:02:04 dpeg: with "number in larger_number" i'll bet that you get bug reports ala "1 in 10 doesn't work. i tried it 12 times and it failed every time!!!!111" 04:02:05 in Debian, Gnome3 went into unstable just a week ago 04:02:07 Fedora 12 04:02:36 there's the same problems with percentage actually, but people can't do math. whereas with the numbers, people can't do math AND statistics 04:02:39 bhaak: one would hope that our players have a modicum of education. 04:02:44 ha! 04:02:45 hehe 04:03:04 you're too optimistic for this reality :) 04:03:29 Should have a intelligence CAPTCHA when starting Crawl. 04:03:53 "Sorry, you're not good enough for this. Go, play Nethack!" :P 04:04:33 kilobyte: I thought the Debian guys are somewhat conservative? 04:06:01 wait I thought crawl was supposed to be easier to play than nethack :p 04:06:10 dpeg: they are but that only means that stable is usually horribly outdated. unstable instead gets the horribly b0rken stuff 04:06:54 from my prejudices you can tell that i'm a gentoo and ubuntu user :-) 04:16:14 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:23:13 bhaak: nah, unstable tends to be more stable than Ubuntu releases. You need experimental if you want the real breakage :p 04:23:51 of course, since uploads go directly to unstable, breakage does happen 04:24:29 it's exactly like Crawl's trunk. We do have "crashes on start" sometimes, which lasts like half an hour before someone fixes it 04:25:19 for that, Debian has testing -- ie, everything from unstable that survived 10 days without a major bug 04:28:36 i think you should stay away from ubuntu release that are new major versions then the probs for breakage was rather low ime so far 04:29:55 i wanted to try out linux mint debian edition with its rolling releases. i'm kinda spoiled since gentoo and don't really like major update version cycles anymore 04:30:34 yeah... I've never played with Unity, yet what I heard it was thoroughly buggy in the first major release that had it 04:33:14 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 04:34:15 -!- mikee_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:34:19 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 04:58:13 -!- mikee_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:58:31 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:59:40 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 05:09:29 -!- jle_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:12:03 -!- mikee_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:14:53 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:15:44 -!- jooosa has joined ##crawl-dev 05:15:45 -!- joosa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:16:01 -!- jooosa is now known as joosa 05:22:21 -!- mikee_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:23:06 -!- [1]capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 05:31:33 -!- [1]capablanca is now known as capablanca 05:36:56 The game seems to let me exit the skill screen without a skill turned on because it thinks the skill I just maxed is on. 05:37:29 There's a training percentage next to the maxed skill. 05:39:41 hmm, just tried it and it auto-enabled Fighting instead 05:39:59 I tried with &S and I also saw that behavior. 05:41:23 You can look at my screen on CAO or I can back up the save. 05:41:28 Or file a report. 05:41:46 I'm mainly wondering if it's going to waste skill points or if it's just a display bug, heh. 05:43:36 galehar might know better -- could you please report his on Mantis? 05:50:04 * kilobyte wonders what good base stats for a cutlass would be. Sabres have dam 7, acc 4, delay 12. 05:53:04 0.7 cutlass had +0,+3 slaying, 0.8 had +0,+2. Having +2 base dam would be in the middle of the two, probably too good. Nerfing base delay wouldn't matter without going all the way to 14. Would an accuracy nerf be enough? 05:53:37 also, as an artefact, enchantment might be manipulated too 05:57:07 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:57:52 -!- [1]capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 05:58:27 -!- capablanca has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:58:49 -!- [1]capablanca is now known as mikee_ 06:03:27 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 06:03:44 -!- mikee_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:07:06 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:11:42 hi 06:18:30 Hi 06:24:14 03kilobyte * rc2a5de1c21d2 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Explain that needles of frenzy don't cause regular berserk. 06:24:18 03kilobyte * r8aeb95811b27 10/crawl-ref/source/ (art-data.txt enum.h itemprop.cc util/art-data.pl wiz-item.cc): Allow redefining base stats on weapon fixedarts. 06:24:18 03kilobyte * r837cfcfcb4f0 10/crawl-ref/source/art-data.txt: Adjust slaying on unrandarts. 06:24:19 03kilobyte * r35ee368cda79 10/crawl-ref/source/artefact.h: Replace a no longer valid comment. 06:29:34 kilobyte: base acc +2 on the katana? 06:32:00 on top of the +1 from it being a long sword, i think 06:32:15 (and katanas were +3) 06:32:35 oh, okay. i didnt expect katanas to have both better acc and damage 06:33:15 they were pretty overpowered :P 06:33:44 well, at least i remembered that right 06:33:55 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:36:07 03MarvinPA * rbf697eba8e65 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abl-show.cc dat/descript/gods.txt mon-stuff.cc): Make Makhleb's invocations cost hp instead of mp, remove his mp-on-kills 06:38:18 millions of zigrunners just cried out, then were suddenly silenced 06:38:50 heh 06:39:27 maybe there'll actually be somewhat of a decision to make in terms of which god for them to choose! :P 06:39:27 beh, could we remove Vehumet instead, please? 06:39:57 whats wrong with veh? 06:40:24 kilobyte: let's pray for Thasero's Veh patch first. 06:40:28 i like playing veh casters, he lets me blast stuff better 06:40:35 alefury: no theme, redundant with Makhleb (until this commit which makes Makhleb useless for casters), general suckage 06:40:44 alefury: this is a developer channel. That players like him is ##crawl stuff. 06:41:09 kilobyte: the commit message spends a paragraph that the change does not make Makhleb useless for casters :) 06:41:11 i don't see how greater demons on demand can be useless for anyone, really 06:41:27 certainly at least worth giving a try, i think 06:41:38 yes, HP regain and summon greater demon always have universal appeal 06:41:50 i dont think he is really redundant with makhleb, veh requires being a summoner or conjurer while makhleb makes it redundant 06:42:01 and i dont agree with general suckage 06:42:05 alefury: I don't say this to make you quiet. It's just that "we players like the god cause he's strong" is not a strong argument over here. 06:42:09 MarvinPA: costing major piety, they're so much worse than summoning spells 06:43:14 what else are you going to do with your makhleb piety? 06:43:14 sure, but level 7 summoning spells are sort of a fairly big investment 06:43:14 worshipping makhleb not so much 06:43:16 it also works well in heavy armor :) 06:43:21 kilobyte: if you now get demons for HP, then you can *still* use the MP for spells! 06:43:37 you don't use Greater Servants until you have a good bit of Inv (less than Summ though) 06:43:53 10 invocations is really cheap 06:44:04 and requires no int or spellcasting in addition 06:44:27 it's really not comparable to the summoning spells, they're something entirely different 06:46:10 I always thought of veh's theme as "blow shit up good", since all the passives you get encourage this. 06:46:37 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:47:14 You can throw more firestorms earlier at better range and if you kill dudes you throw even more firestorms. 06:47:35 dpeg: when i said i like veh because he lets me blast stuff better i didnt mean i like him because hes strong. no other god fills that niche, and the increased range, wizardry and extra mp change how you play a conjurer significantly imo. ie he lets you play a pure conjurer, which usually works much worse. 06:47:57 I believe pure conjurers always worked fine. 06:49:04 they do, but you have to be careful and have a backup plan 06:49:04 Vehumet amplifies them, no question about that. But kilobyte has a good point: no theme, no conduct. But spell gifts rather than book gifts will help. 06:49:04 veh makes conjurations powerful enough to fully rely on them solving almost every problem 06:49:04 alefury: that sounds like advertisement for Vehumet removal, to be honest. 06:49:06 spell gifts and no summon support would help, yes. 06:49:25 well, oka makes it possibly to fully rely on melee to solve almost every problem 06:49:49 its really all a completely passive god can do 06:50:04 I am not happy with Okawaru either :) kilobyte's changes for 0.9 did remove the horrible duplication, though. 06:50:04 while also significantly changing how you play 06:50:30 xom makes it possible to fully rely on no problem to fully solve reliability :) 06:50:58 (i know oka is not completely passive) 06:51:12 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 06:51:27 Oka is boring, there's hardly any conduvt there either. 06:51:44 no allies is often significant 06:52:10 even if just for wands of enslavement on a non-caster 06:52:23 and scrolls of summoning and demonic guardian (in a bad way) 06:53:25 mm, evilmike's new geh:7 looks pretty cool 06:53:58 a "fortress on a sea of lava" :) 06:54:34 ghallberg: more than half gods have no negative conducts and I wouldn't call them any worse than those which do 06:54:46 and if you want to call such conducts good, case in point: Zin 06:55:07 Maybe, I think there should be a choice when choosing a god. 06:55:15 kilobyte: hey, Zin is actually good these days. You should drink a beer with him and bury your grudge :) 06:55:16 MarvinPA: not sure what's that shatter thingy he's talking about 06:55:28 GOds that are simply something fo rnothing feel boring. 06:55:30 @whereis 06:55:30 KiloByte the Brawler (L17 TrHu), a worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, dead on D:1 (ZotDef) on 2011-10-18 after 4775 turns. 06:55:39 06:55:46 well zin manages to actually be really strong in spite of having strict conducts, yeah 06:56:08 ghallberg: I don't want a serious challenge for all gods, but I do like decisions. Vehumet carries no, and Okawaru few decisions. 06:56:34 (beh, @whereis overwrites normal games with ZotDef. I've got a Zinnite stashed, and can't get myself to resume that game) 06:56:34 challenge = conduct you have to obey 06:56:52 kilobyte: i think just that shatter/lrd is the only way to break the walls of the fortress and get out onto the lava sea? since the walls are all stone/metal 06:56:53 dpeg: Yes, agreed. 06:56:59 kilobyte: perhaps you're the more chaotic type? :) 06:57:31 MarvinPA: yeah, but is there a reason to go out? It looks like pure decoration to me (great decoration, yeah). 06:57:40 dpeg: or evil! 06:57:45 to skip straight to the rune/loot i guess 06:57:47 or evil, yes 06:57:53 * kilobyte ponders what to do with that game. Xom or Yred? 06:58:07 if you can blast out through one wall and then in next to asmodeus 06:58:17 MarvinPA: ah, right, makes sense 06:58:35 i don't think all gods need to add extra decisions beyond worship, as long as they significantly change how you play the game. that is interesting enough in itself imo. 06:59:03 "_The endless sea of lava is not a nice place." 06:59:06 :D 07:00:16 MarvinPA: couldn't think of a better message, without being wordy and/or using modern terms 07:00:20 it's short and to the point, yeah! :) 07:00:26 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConvectionSchmonvection 07:00:34 alefury: I don't think that Vehumet is good at that. It reduces what you do. 07:00:54 kilobyte: the Serpent of Hell might respectfully disagree. 07:01:47 we really need that salamander race then :p 07:04:53 0ada8313a probably no longer applies. It'd be good to have Vehu: good MP, TSO: worse HP+MP, Makhleb: good HP. 07:05:15 (modulo the contradiction of using "Vehumet" and "good" in one sentence) 07:05:43 hehe, you're so polemic :) 07:05:52 As long as Vehumet is not as bad as Gnome 3! 07:06:16 that might be reasonable, yeah, if you mean reverting/reducing the nerf to hp on kills 07:06:28 !tell Samb found the issue with "draconian wave". It wasn't a Zot wave, it's just Tiamat's band being HUGE, inappropriate unless really, really late. Should I reduce the band's size or postpone her? 07:06:28 kilobyte: OK, I'll let Samb know. 07:06:48 dpeg: yeah, definitely 07:07:29 dpeg: network-manager by itself gets Gnome 3 to Windows ME levels, the interface changes dig it even deeper 07:08:06 03kilobyte * r5eb263c09869 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Partially revert "Nerf TSO's and Makhleb's HP and MP on kills." 07:09:51 "needs to die like a halfling" should become a standing phrase 07:11:07 seriously though, I wonder what needs to be done to kill MDs. 07:12:18 I kind of like Mi having terrible spellcasting skills over the board, even though someone argued about the skills being equal. Messing with weapon skills is easy: no short blades, good polearms, etc. 07:12:53 the "good Earth" thingy could go to DDs, given that the Gnome proposal died down 07:13:07 you mean good fire? DDs already have +3 earth 07:13:23 doh yeah 07:14:09 MD has the perfect apts for a spell-less heavy armor melee dude with wands. this makes them a great race to recommend to newbies. 07:14:43 !tell SamB about the .d breakage: bdabd553 is the culprit: if dependency data is outdated, removing them is good, using the old version is not 07:14:43 kilobyte: OK, I'll let SamB know. 07:15:02 Mi is pretty good too though, just bad evo i think? 07:15:05 !apt Mi 07:15:06 Mi: Air: -3, Armour: 1, Axes: 2!, Bows: 1, Charms: -3, Conj: -3*, Xbows: 1, Dodge: 1, Earth: -3*, Evo: -3*, Exp: 140, Fighting: 2!, Fire: -3*, Hexes: -3, Ice: -3*, Inv: -1, Long: 2!, Maces: 2!, Nec: -3*, Poison: -3*, Polearms: 2, Shields: 1, Short: 2, Slings: 1, Splcast: -3, Stab: 0, Staves: 2!, Stealth: -2, Summ: -3*, Throw: 1, Tloc: -3*, Tmut: -3, Traps: -1, Unarmed: 1! 07:15:32 mi is roughly the same i guess except pretty worthless as a heavy armour hybrid 07:15:37 alefury: pretty much strictly worse than MD, except for dodging and "don't do that then" thingy 07:15:40 which MD can vaguely pull off 07:16:09 http://sprunge.us/KGBV 07:16:34 Don't do that then? 07:16:52 it'd be a pity to lose one of the very few races that can actually cast a bit and has decent armour apts, anyway (but there's plenty of room to adjust Mi/HO/whatever for that if MD is removed) 07:17:37 or i sort of liked the idea of trying a different approach to draconians, give them back their body slot and improve the armour apt so that they'd make reasonable dragon armour-casters 07:17:40 DD; also HO might be bumped in that regard, I guess 07:18:00 since the boots/gloves thing seems a bit weird to me still, i'm not sure about it 07:18:22 MarvinPA: for draconians, I'm not opposed, but please think before we waste time fixing monster draconian gear issues :p 07:19:13 in Dragonlance images they seem to have regular feet and hands (and that's the sole source of draconians) 07:19:18 mm, well i don't want to really push to revert it and try something else if people think it's worth testing the current state for longer 07:19:57 but personally i'd certainly prefer to try them with better armour apt and the body slot 07:19:59 I mean, monster draconians can currently wear armour, including Tiamat's signature GDA. 07:20:00 Why does Mi have a godawful evo apt anymore? 07:20:07 Enhancer staves were nerfed in other ways 07:20:13 tiamat makes things a bit awkward, yeah 07:20:14 RichardHawk: stupid cows, I guess. 07:20:35 someone proposed an unrand "dragonskin cloak" 07:20:37 kilobyte: But the labyrinth minotaur very often has a dangerous wand or rod it uses rather proficiently 07:20:56 RichardHawk: monsters have no apts 07:21:19 kilobyte: Just saying it doesn't work from a flavor standpoint 07:21:45 well, that works too, if someone is volunteering to fix all the equipment issues and such then fair enough. i just kinda like the idea of letting them wear dragon armour and being fairly good at doing so, since no other restricted-slot races really want to wear medium/heavy armour much 07:22:06 might make them a bit more unique as a hybrid race 07:22:22 Perhaps make Mi large with no deformed/unfitting armour mutation to distinguish them? 07:22:49 anyway, just a thought, sorry to distract from the important tasking of purging MD :P 07:22:52 Fyren: i just read the log. about your skill disable problem: is that char transferred from before the skill restriction changes? i had the same problem on such a char, but new chars dont have it for me. also no exp is wasted, it is stored and spent in bulk when you next kill something with a skill switched on. 07:22:54 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:22:54 important task* 07:25:33 could reflavor them as stormcallers 07:25:52 decent magic apts. good armor, bad melee. 07:26:27 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:28:30 possibly just give them +1 to all elements and -1 to all other schools (and poison) 07:28:35 might be fun 07:29:06 also mountains have earth, wind, ice. no fire, but could just throw that in there for kicks. 07:29:26 Kenku could use improvements to make them good at heavy armour casting again 07:29:32 hmm, looking at those apts i guess HO is already sort of alright as a heavy armour caster other than the terrible mp/spellcasting/int which MD also has, could maybe just bump it to +2 armour, and then Mi is a pretty okay melee brute 07:29:32 alefury: are you talking about MD? 07:29:47 right now they have too little strength and their HP is even worse after the fighting changes 07:29:49 what changed to make kenku bad at armour casting? 07:29:56 ah 07:30:33 it used to be all Armour, now it's almost only STR 07:30:59 kilobyte: yes. somehow a tribe of little armored dudes that live up high in the mountains and wreck shit with elemental magic appeals to me. 07:31:11 alefury: Dwarves dig deep. 07:31:20 maybe mountain dwarves dont? 07:31:21 not mountain ones :P 07:31:38 I missunderstood you? 07:33:05 just giving HO +1 armor and spc might work too 07:33:26 strangly HO have even *worse* int than MD, also less dex and no more strength 07:34:32 alefury: I think I figured out the bug. The character is less than a week old. 07:37:33 st_: so it's obvious why everyone prefers playing MD 07:38:09 it's relevant for the heavy armour casting discussion 07:42:09 03kilobyte * rbb331cc95b53 10/crawl-ref/source/Makefile: A nasty hack to delete outdated (and likely invalid!) .d files. FIXME! 07:43:16 yay, at least CDO can update without deleting *.d util/*.d by hand 07:43:23 does DD damage shaving apply to the makhleb invocation HP costs? 07:43:29 (the hack being too ugly to live is another matter) 07:43:31 also, should it? 07:43:34 no, and no 07:44:01 since it's a cost to use the ability, not something hurting you 07:44:17 it works for pain 07:44:30 pain has other costs 07:44:32 maybe pain should hurt them too :P 07:44:52 although for that it could just be a backlash from casting the spell, as opposed to part of the cost for casting it 07:44:59 they'd have no low-level spell this way 07:45:04 yeah 07:45:09 yeah, its a different situation with pain 07:45:26 or could be, anyway 07:45:31 Makhleb is pricey now for them, but hey, he just got good HP gains back so DDs will be fine 07:45:38 sublimation of blood ignores shaving too, so i think the distinction between costs and other stuff is reasonably alright 07:45:48 yeah, i imagine they'll still cope just fine :P 07:45:50 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1389-gbb331cc (32) 07:46:11 can't mindlessly spam Minor Destruction anymore 07:46:24 :( 07:47:22 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 07:49:30 Fyren: could you add a comment to mantis 4667? 07:50:09 it being unrelated to transfer from old versions is probably relevant 08:11:25 btw, CDO's sshd now accepts the environment variable DGLAUTH (format: "username:password") to autologin to DGL 08:26:07 03dolorous * ra98d9d6f109c 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Properly change Makhleb's "gain power" message to "gain health". 08:27:30 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:29:59 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 08:36:06 03MarvinPA * r7a52707dc42f 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-damage.cc: Make Refrigeration and Shatter violate Sanctuary 09:02:11 03MarvinPA * rf692c13b4d3d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/dlua/lm_toll.lua: Don't prompt to add Ziggurats to the shopping list when they enter LOS 09:03:32 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:08:55 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:16:59 -!- Pingas has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:19:56 !messages 09:19:57 (1/2) kilobyte said (2h 13m 29s ago): found the issue with "draconian wave". It wasn't a Zot wave, it's just Tiamat's band being HUGE, inappropriate unless really, really late. Should I reduce the band's size or postpone her? 09:20:02 !messages 09:20:03 (1/1) kilobyte said (2h 5m 20s ago): about the .d breakage: bdabd553 is the culprit: if dependency data is outdated, removing them is good, using the old version is not 09:26:58 how about making cerebov's sword something more than a great sword now we can do that? (could nerf his damage by a bit and add it to the weapon) 09:27:28 kilobyte: I don't really know anything about Tiamat; do what you think best! 09:27:32 that sounds nice 09:27:43 would be fun for it to be reasonably usable 09:30:28 wouldn't it be cool if min delays were changed so that fast weapons with a min delay above 14 weren't just worse than the slowest weapons? 09:30:38 that way more weapon types would see use 09:30:51 huh? 09:31:11 a lajatang and an exec axe have the same min delay currently, correct? 09:31:24 yes, min delay 7 09:31:24 that makes exec axes almost always better at high skill 09:31:41 and there's no problem with that? 09:32:01 lajatangs are pretty good for a low skill investment though, yeah 09:32:23 it makes most of the 2-handers fairly bad compared to the "biggest" ones 09:32:44 like, i don't often even consider using a great sword unless i find a kickass randart or something 09:32:47 which is a pity 09:33:04 MarvinPA: flamberge? (two-handed wavy-bladed sword) 09:34:21 it could just be the generic "sword of cerebov" with stats as appropriate, that could work too though to be a bit more descriptive, yeah 09:35:00 by the way, it's odd that rF-- works same as rF-. One would expect it to work splendidly on rF- creatures. 09:37:16 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:44:28 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 10:07:45 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 10:25:19 blabber: okay, so I got GDB built with support for FreeBSD stuff 10:25:50 I should have anticipated it's hunger for more symbols 10:27:04 From To Syms Read Shared Object Library 10:27:05 No /usr/local/lib/liblua-5.1.so.1 10:27:05 No /usr/local/lib/libsqlite3.so.8 10:27:05 No /lib/libz.so.5 10:27:05 No /lib/libncursesw.so.8 10:27:05 No /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6 10:27:07 No /lib/libm.so.5 10:27:09 No /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 10:27:11 No /lib/libc.so.7 10:27:13 No /lib/libthr.so.3 10:27:16 No /libexec/ld-elf.so.1 10:29:11 Though it looks like I really only want libc, libstdc++, and liblua 10:31:59 -!- elly has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:32:28 SamB: sigh. 10:32:43 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 10:32:46 no need for debugging syms, mind! 10:34:06 you just need the *.so files without debugging symbols. 10:34:16 yeah 10:39:01 SamB: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/file_download.php?file_id=2513&type=bug 10:39:37 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 10:43:48 MarvinPA: I proposed to replace "Success: good" for spells by "Fails: 1 in 10". What do you think? 10:44:09 dpeg: does "success:good" actually mean a 90% success rate? 10:44:23 no 10:44:30 but I think it was just an example 10:45:20 numbers are arbitrary 10:45:49 It could also be better worded. The proposal is to replace the spell success subjectives with a numerical display, in the way indicated. 10:46:02 elliptic: oh, also goes to you, of course. Didn't spot you here :) 10:46:21 personally I don't really like the idea that much (for the reasons bhaak gave earlier, mainly... I don't think it will help players), but I don't feel that strongly 10:46:26 Players are compaigning for "Success: 94%" but I hate that. 10:46:31 dpeg: is it basically log(P(fail))? 10:46:44 SamB: what is? 10:47:05 i'd rather just improve the adjectives if any change is needed, personally 10:47:07 dpeg: where is this "way indicated" 10:47:17 do BOTH! 10:47:27 adjective + some sort of useful number 10:47:40 SamB: The spell fails for about 1 in NUMBER castings. 10:47:44 dpeg: numbers give no real feeling about the miscast severity, whereas words have the potential to do that 10:48:07 and seriously, people don't understand what "Fails: 1 in 10" means 10:48:10 it is sad but true 10:48:11 elliptic: but miscast severity is a function of level and school(s)? 10:48:14 hmm, hadn't thought of that. that's a good point too 10:48:18 dpeg: and failure rate! 10:48:21 and how badly you miscast it 10:48:22 -!- petete has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:48:28 I think that should get its *own* column 10:48:32 elliptic: I agree, but I think they understand 93% even less (in a useful way, I mean). 10:48:51 sure, 93% is a terrible idea 10:49:12 how about we just give the number of 9s ;-P 10:49:16 if they want to know numbers, they can look up spoilers for what the adjectives mean 10:49:30 or even the formulas that produce the numbers 10:49:38 we don't need to provide them in-game 10:49:39 elliptic: I proposed this (a number, gasp) because desired chances are different for various types of spells. Then again, personally I never bother with this anyway. 10:50:17 elliptic: sure. Thought I'd suggest this, the least intrusive numerical way I could think of. Bury the idea then. 10:50:23 elliptic: the words are rather coarse in granularity 10:50:41 I certainly agree that "1 in N" would be the best way of giving numbers :) 10:50:47 elliptic: thanks :) 10:51:08 as long as it's not N in M 10:51:13 no no 10:51:16 and as I said, I don't feel that strongly about it 10:51:22 what happens when it gets really bad? 10:51:33 like, "1 in 2" is a bit course ... 10:51:43 SamB: for less than 1/2 you could use an adjective 10:52:15 i think adjusting the percentages at which each adjective is displayed might do the trick, anyway 10:52:38 continuing on from the past adjustments where the low-end adjectives were grouped together a bit 10:52:45 yeah 10:54:14 make the gaps at the low end bigger again, and smaller at the high end 10:54:43 a bit like 1/n? :P 10:55:13 sure, just no need to display unnecessary numbers this way :P 10:55:47 Also, jpeg and I have been preparing a survey for the 0.10 release. Two questions: 1) Who has experience with web-based surveys? (tools, Java, whatever) 2) Who'd like to read and comment (devs only for now)? 10:57:01 -!- Textmode has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:58:43 MarvinPA: I think for stuff at low P(fail) end, numbers of some kind would probably be better than a whole slew of adjectives 10:59:11 samb: well, we don't need that many adjectives in general 10:59:20 i don't think there need to be any more adjectives than present 10:59:27 just have them better distributed, is all 10:59:32 yes, probably 10:59:35 hmm 10:59:39 I think we should use less 10:59:40 how many words are in use right now? 11:00:01 useless/terrible/very poor/poor/fair/good/very good/great/excellent/perfect 11:00:22 I think we should drop everything between fair and perfect 11:00:23 less words would be even better maybe, yeah 11:00:26 (exclusive) 11:00:39 we could probably safely cut back on one of the sub-50% success words 11:00:49 ten is too many, yes 11:00:56 and use something more numerical for anything between "fair" and "perfect" 11:00:58 let's see 11:01:23 or, use the word *and* something numerical for that range 11:01:28 http://pastebin.com/71pr7m8n those are the current numbers, for reference 11:01:35 SamB: we are trying to avoid numbers :) 11:01:46 I don't think it's a good goal for that range, seriously 11:01:58 SamB: but I recall that you also opted for default weights :) 11:02:08 03elliptic * r8460267cb0cb 10/crawl-ref/source/ (16 files in 6 dirs): Fiend -> Brimstone Fiend. 11:02:14 dpeg: I dropped that when I realized how hard it is to mindread 11:02:40 SamB: my mind or the player's mind? 11:02:47 dpeg: player's! 11:02:50 you are much easier 11:03:04 -!- blabber_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:03:09 "poor" for 0 okay, I guess if you do that maybe words can do a bit better than now... 11:03:41 hmm. 11:03:55 maybe we can make it an option to display something numerical ? 11:03:59 moving cutoffs to 20%, 50% (1 in 2), 66% (1 in 3), 75% (1 in 4), 83% (1 in 6), 90% (1 in 10), 95% (1 in 20) 11:04:02 is one option 11:04:04 samb: no 11:04:13 this should *definitely* not be an option :) 11:04:26 I'm not saying it should make the words disappear, mind... 11:04:37 well it'd be perfectly easy to look up what number each adjective corresponds to, anyway 11:04:39 elliptic: seven sounds good 11:04:39 perhaps numbers could show up in wizmode 11:04:41 for those that think it's important :P 11:05:02 nine with "perfect" and "useless" 11:05:03 dpeg: well, that was the same number of cutoffs as currently 11:05:10 just realised 11:05:21 90%, 95%, and 99% are too widely spaced :-( 11:06:17 (anything more than 99%, you understand, being perfect) 11:06:22 -!- blabber has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:06:30 samb: could push a little bit further up, yes 11:06:33 elliptic: will it be (psychologically or otherwise) be better to talk about failure chances? 11:06:40 "rare" etc. 11:07:42 I think the current group of adjectives is pretty good in terms of people knowing how they are ordered 11:07:46 o 11:07:47 k 11:09:04 I think the main misleading thing currently is how bad fair and good are, really 11:10:10 marvinpa: any thoughts on what cutoffs would be good? 11:10:46 hmm 11:10:59 0, 20, 50, 75, 85, 92, 95, 97.5, 99, 100 ? 11:11:29 that's an extra cutoff 11:11:32 I know :( 11:11:34 maybe that without the 99 11:11:43 99 is critical 11:11:49 0, 20, 50, 75, 85, 92, 95, 98, 100 ? 11:11:51 thats the cutoff for perfect ... 11:11:52 i was thinking 98/95/90 for the top few, maybe? 11:11:56 or that, yeah 11:12:06 samb: no, I mean that we don't need a special name for 99% 11:12:10 in addition to perfect 11:12:12 oh, okay 11:12:14 yeah, true 11:12:36 SamB: 1 in 50 or 1 in 100 sounds similar enough to me 11:13:00 so which adjective would we get rid of? 11:13:02 honestly I have *never* worried about exactly where I was in the current "excellent" range 11:13:07 very poor? 11:13:14 marvinpa: these suggestions aren't getting rid of any 11:13:19 I may have just been confused about what the "99" and "100" were supposed to mean ;-) 11:13:23 oh okay, i miscounted 11:14:08 so I'm a little uncertain we need to split excellent 11:14:27 jarmok has updated his monster spoilers for 0.9 11:14:58 in that case 98-100 for excellent and 95-98 for great sounds okay, i think 11:16:09 I'd rather just remove one of great and excellent, honestly 11:18:14 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 11:19:57 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 11:22:01 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:22:26 -!- blabber_ is now known as blabber 11:22:40 blabber_: hmm, one of those things you sent me was a .a and one was a symlink 11:22:47 do not feel too silly 11:22:57 SamB: really. oops 11:22:58 I once sent someone a tarball with *nothing* but a symlink 11:23:14 he said it was a very nice symlink! 11:23:43 libstdc++ was an actual .so file 11:24:22 1 out of 3 ain't too bad ^^ 11:24:38 yes, better than the situation I described ;-) 11:25:45 so I'm thinking about the idea of giving people some information about how bad miscasting the spell is likely to be 11:25:54 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 11:26:15 elliptic: good! 11:26:19 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 11:26:34 Obviously not too easy... 11:26:58 assuming that there's quite a range of miscast effects possible, but not many of them very probable 11:27:23 elliptic: no indicator, * and ** ? 11:28:13 dpeg: something like that, yeah 11:29:32 a bit risky / very risky 11:29:37 colour the text for failure chance? 11:30:16 obviously, we need a help screen for II then, no matter which scheme we adpot 11:31:48 SamB: how about this one: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/file_download.php?file_id=2514&type=bug 11:34:09 hmm, that looks better 11:35:11 this time I needed to *make* a symlink ;-) 11:35:35 ... or something 11:36:12 grr. I still don't get the expected backtrace through liblua :-( 11:36:32 what is /usr/local/lib/liblua-5.1.so.1 ? 11:36:40 is it a symlink, or a different .so, or what ? 11:37:44 ll -h /usr/local/lib/lua51/liblua.so 11:37:51 /usr/local/lib/lua51/liblua.so -> liblua-5.1.so.1 11:38:53 and 11:38:54 ldd /usr/local/bin/stonesoup | grep lua liblua-5.1.so.1 => /usr/local/lib/liblua-5.1.so.1 (0x28873000) 11:39:31 so the stuff in the tarball should be what you need. 11:42:16 blabber: er, did you not notice the "lua51" in some of those paths but not others ? 11:42:22 I'm just wondering if it makes any difference 11:43:33 SamB: symlinking madness :) 11:43:36 ll /usr/local/lib/liblua-5.1.so.1 11:43:36 lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 21 9 Jul 21:47 /usr/local/lib/liblua-5.1.so.1 -> lua51/liblua-5.1.so.1 11:43:44 blabber: okay 11:43:56 that's what I did here, too :-( 11:44:51 if you just want a backtrace have a look at the one i attached at the issue. 11:44:56 I am 11:45:29 i might set up a freebsd jail for you to tinker around via ssh 11:45:41 I'm just trying to get GDB to tell me about stack unwinding 11:45:50 and exception handling 11:46:12 and hoping that if I can reproduce the backtrace, I can also get that 11:52:28 blabber: is it possible that liblua has split symbols? 11:52:49 like, is there something with similar filename, but with /debug/ in the path ? 11:53:57 or I could just wait for a jail 11:54:03 that would probably be wise, really ... 11:54:33 the issue with giving out information about miscast severity is that it is often the case that really bad miscasts are possible with extremely low probability 11:54:51 elliptic: yeah. I figured. 11:55:16 so the question is, how low is "insignificant"? 11:58:11 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110701115916]] 11:58:15 if I'm doing the calculation right (a bit doubtful) then you need about 99.5% success to be guaranteed of not getting a severity 3 miscast from a L9 spell, for instance 11:58:25 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 12:00:33 elliptic: are you worried about giving more information with miscast stuff than just the adjectives? 12:01:21 dpeg: well, I still just want to divide things into a couple of groups (and use */** or coloring or whatever) for the miscast severity 12:01:28 I'm just uncertain where to put the divisions 12:01:58 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:02:09 dpeg: he's worried about the players getting mad when they hit one of the improbable things 12:02:14 I assume 12:02:17 no, not that really 12:02:39 we just won't really be able to make specific guarantees :) 12:02:50 yeah, that's kinda what I was trying to say 12:03:09 I sometimes have trouble articulating these things 12:04:30 probably the best thing to do is to have * = 0.1% chance of a severity 2 or 3 miscast, ** = 0.1% chance of a severity 3 miscast 12:04:33 or something like that 12:05:05 er. did you mean to say "1 or 2" about * ? 12:05:12 no 12:05:21 severity 1 miscasts are mostly completely harmless 12:05:47 ??enchantment miscast 12:05:47 enchantment miscast[1/1]: 1: levitation / random uselessness 2: curse (no decay) / slowing / berserk 3: 3x curse / paralysis / confusion / 0-18 glow. As of 0.8, Charm and Hex miscasts still use the old Enchantment miscasts. 12:05:54 an example 12:06:10 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:06:13 perhaps it would have been clearer if I had said severity >= 2 12:06:28 0.1% could probably also use tweaking 12:07:26 actually, it might be better if ** is more like 1% chance of severity 2 or 3 miscast 12:07:40 I'll try to work out what these conditions would actually look like 12:14:17 SamB: no, no split symbols. i will create a jail and ping you when it's ready. 12:15:04 and it won't be ready before the weekend ^^ 12:19:32 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 12:19:47 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 12:25:25 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 12:28:43 -!- evilmike has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:29:02 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 12:41:03 Any comments for https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2876&view=unread#unread ? Especially elliptic, if you find a minute. (In short, minmay suggests to make both slaying and damage affected by skill, like base damage is.) 12:42:27 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:44:56 would require a ton of rebalancing 12:45:37 and I don't see the problem with having weapon skill only help with the weapon itself rather than magical add-ons 12:46:22 also a +5 whip would be the same as a +0 demon whip under the idea proposed there... 12:46:29 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:46:30 -!- varmin has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:46:40 at the very least, there'd need to be a cap on damage enchantment, something relative to the weapon's base damage probably 12:46:49 maybe people want a +5 whip to be the same as a +0 demon whip 12:47:37 -!- greensnark has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:48:14 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:48:52 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:49:04 -!- greensnark has joined ##crawl-dev 12:49:07 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 12:49:24 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 12:49:26 I agree with all of that, but I am often the lone dev conducting these discussions on the forum. Good to know! 12:50:14 casmith789: they may want that, but I don't think it is desirable. Don't we lose decision space that way? 12:51:50 they aren't identical at all, though, even if they have the same stats 12:52:01 the +5 whip will be more resistant to jellies, for instance 12:52:08 and the demon whip will be easier to enchant 12:52:18 -!- varmin has joined ##crawl-dev 13:03:05 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:04:02 there is one advantage I haven't seen mentioned yet about that proposal: it would make comparing weapons slightly easier 13:04:27 like, if you have a +5 long sword and a +3 scimitar, or something like that. that's a fairly small problem imo though 13:04:29 evilmike: yes 13:04:46 (yes, it'd help comparing) 13:07:30 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:09:26 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:10:54 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:13:03 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:13:09 -!- santiago has joined ##crawl-dev 13:13:26 -!- santiago has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:16:31 Keskitalo: around? 13:19:39 evilmike: yeah... it certainly would be nice to have a simpler system, and we should consider having things work like this if we ever redo melee formulas from scratch 13:20:49 or if we ever change how min delay works, we could consider changing this at the same time (since we would be messing up balance anyway) 13:21:01 I see kilobyte gave MD removal another try. That's good! We just need one precise proposal (how to change Mi/HO, I guess) and off they go! 13:21:11 elliptic: yes 13:24:51 dpeg: what are you referring to about MD removal? (I'm in favor if Mi gets changed to be more interesting) 13:30:19 elliptic: out of the similar MD, Mi, HO, the latter two are sacrosanct to me (Beogh; myth + labyrinths) -- but only in name. I'd be fine if we scrapped Mi and renamed to MD to Mi, for example (should someone think that's a good idea). 13:31:11 that's possible, it would be good to make HO stand up a little better relative to MD/Mi in addition 13:32:37 yes 13:32:54 I think there is concensus that there isn't space for three such species, at least not with aptitudes alone. 13:32:56 probably by buffing HO rather than nerfing MD/Mi, I'd say; MD/Mi could certainly take a nerf, but I think having strong melee races isn't bad 13:32:58 yes 13:33:22 We just need someone to come up with any kind of change. For example, you! =) 13:33:45 I'll think about it, yeah 13:34:02 there are also some questions about whether current MD apts are that flavorful for Mi 13:34:04 !apt MD 13:34:05 MD: Air: -2, Armour: 3!, Axes: 2!, Bows: -2, Charms: -2, Conj: -1, Xbows: 1, Dodge: -1, Earth: 2, Evo: 1, Exp: 130, Fighting: 2!, Fire: 2!, Hexes: -2, Ice: -2, Inv: 0, Long: 0, Maces: 2!, Nec: -3*, Poison: -2, Polearms: -1, Shields: 2!, Short: 1, Slings: -1, Splcast: -3, Stab: -2, Staves: -1, Stealth: -3, Summ: -2, Throw: -1, Tloc: -2, Tmut: -1, Traps: 1, Unarmed: 0 13:34:15 Cannot miss the chance on species cutting, heh? :) 13:34:40 elliptic: no, need a little tweaking. MD get penalties at Pla and bows for size. 13:34:59 We can keep good Earth for Mi, if we want. (But I think DD has that too?) 13:35:03 yeah... also I don't know about the magic skills 13:35:10 keeping good fire would be better if we could justify that 13:35:12 !apt DD 13:35:13 DD: Air: -3, Armour: 1, Axes: 1, Bows: -3, Charms: -1, Conj: -1, Xbows: 1, Dodge: 1, Earth: 3!, Evo: 3!, Exp: 130, Fighting: -1, Fire: -1, Hexes: -2, Ice: -1, Inv: 2!, Long: 0, Maces: 0, Nec: 1, Poison: -2, Polearms: -1, Shields: 1, Short: -1, Slings: 1, Splcast: -1, Stab: -1, Staves: -1, Stealth: 2, Summ: -1, Throw: -1, Tloc: 1, Tmut: -1, Traps: 1, Unarmed: -1 13:35:13 because DD, yes 13:35:46 !apt fire 13:35:47 Fire: Ce: -1, DD: -1, DE: 1, DG: -1, Dr: 0, Dr[black]: 0, Dr[green]: 0, Dr[grey]: 0, Dr[mottled]: 1, Dr[pale]: 1, Dr[purple]: 0, Dr[red]: 2!, Dr[white]: -2, Dr[yellow]: 0, DS: -1, Fe: -1, Gh: -2, Ha: 0, HE: 0, HO: 0, Hu: 0, Ke: 1, Ko: 0, LO: , MD: 2!, Mf: -3*, Mi: -3*, Mu: -2, Na: 0, Og: -3*, OP: , SE: 1, Sp: -2, Tr: -3*, Vp: -2 13:36:25 only Dr[red] has as good a fire apt as MD, currently... it would be nice if we didn't lose that aspect 13:37:56 elliptic: I don't see a mythological reason (should check the wiki) but we could make our labyrinths fire flavoured (lava, fire clouds etc.) 13:38:57 give it to kenku and also buff their HP and str 13:39:31 st_: that sounds like a lot. Are you bribed? 13:40:08 03elliptic * rb5e2fb4718eb 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Fix an error in the changelog (minmay). 13:40:43 !apt ke 13:40:44 Ke: Air: 3!, Armour: 1, Axes: 1, Bows: 1, Charms: -2, Conj: 3!, Xbows: 1, Dodge: 1, Earth: -3*, Evo: 0, Exp: 130, Fighting: 0, Fire: 1, Hexes: -3, Ice: -1, Inv: -2*, Long: 1, Maces: 1, Nec: 1, Poison: 0, Polearms: 1, Shields: 0, Short: 1, Slings: 0, Splcast: 0, Stab: 1, Staves: 1, Stealth: 0, Summ: 2!, Throw: 1, Tloc: -2, Tmut: -2, Traps: 0, Unarmed: 1! 13:40:57 could maybe trade 1 conj for 1 fire 13:41:02 elliptic: oh damn, I am just doing a full changelog update :( 13:41:14 dpeg: oh, sorry 13:41:20 elliptic: is it a big change? 13:41:27 probably not 13:41:30 just two lines (one changelog entry) 13:42:22 ok ok 13:42:54 dpeg: are you going through git shortlog, or just writing something from memory? 13:44:43 dpeg: the thing I don't like about Mi flavour is that afaik there was only one minotaur before the 20th century 13:44:59 kilobyte: git log 13:45:14 elliptic: I know, but that one is damn old. 13:45:21 There was also only one hydra. 13:45:22 sure, but it isn't a race of them :) 13:45:43 I know, I know 13:46:00 elliptic: you know how that minotaur of Minos was conceived... there is no reason there couldn't be an army of them. 13:46:27 I think that minotaurs are much more flavourful than dwarves of the "ale, axe, beard" variety. 13:46:36 certainly Mi is better than MD, yes 13:46:57 kilobyte: you should look over it, I might have gotten something wrong from your changes (good god piety, food stuff) 13:47:25 dpeg: could you mark off the last entry you went through? 13:47:40 the idea of making labyrinths more fire-flavoured could be interesting... use lava "walls" to give shortcuts, etc 13:47:41 how? in the changelog? 13:47:47 (and you can start by "git shortlog THE_OLD_HASH..master") 13:48:05 elliptic: for example... I am fine with reshaping flavour for our game 13:49:53 also, I am missing some stuff: webtiles and ZD, not sure what to say there :O 13:54:28 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:00:58 dpeg: is Cryp71c going back? Reading monster attack code makes me cringe... 14:01:15 kilobyte: I have no idea. Should I send him a mail? 14:01:41 for example mons_calc_damage() is in no way consistent with damage player does 14:01:44 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 14:02:19 random additions and subtractions, etc. 14:02:48 kilobyte: I'll write to him with you in Cc? 14:02:56 monsters with weapons have for example a penalty of 1 + random2(3) for no obvious reason 14:03:06 might be good, yeah 14:03:35 also, enchantment is _better_ than base damage 14:04:02 kilobyte: monster melee damage is computed using completely different formulas from player melee damage, yes 14:04:19 enchantment being better than base damage is pretty silly-sounding though 14:04:40 kilobyte: is TSO from spotting monsters in? 14:04:42 against someone with 0 AC 0 GDR it's the same 14:04:43 +piety 14:04:45 dpeg: yes 14:05:12 dpeg: I didn't hear any feedback from players though... no idea if it makes sense 14:05:32 no feedback about Evilyon, too 14:05:46 I am updating this changelog in order to see what playtesting I should call for. 14:06:17 kilobyte: for elyvilon did you just remove the passive piety with no compensation? 14:06:36 elliptic: I doubled gains for pacification 14:06:49 there's a decay, too 14:07:14 kilobyte: hm, how much did you test getting to *? 14:07:38 you can do that with weapon sacrifices no problem, surely 14:07:47 yes, was about to say that 14:07:49 eventually, but it might take much longer 14:08:02 played some guy who took Ely in the temple 14:08:09 really? i always just ctrl+f missile after i take ely 14:08:10 and then it takes time to build piety 14:08:16 then get up to 2* for free, pretty much 14:08:32 MarvinPA: it's strictly better to sac weapons first 14:08:55 mm, less effort to just sacrifice big piles of missiles though 14:09:00 before you get healing, every weapon gives +1 piety, missiles only sometimes 14:09:14 after the first threshold, missiles get better 14:09:58 I have a feeling this can be improved upon. 14:10:08 not without testing :( 14:11:30 this might not really be an issue but having piety decay means that running around collecting weapons before converting to ely can be optimal play 14:11:48 !lg * cv=0.10-a start>20111007 god=elyvilon|zin|shining one s=god 14:11:49 74 games for * (cv=0.10-a start>20111007 god=elyvilon|zin|shining one): 36x Elyvilon, 20x The Shining One, 18x Zin 14:12:02 anyway I'll test it out myself soon :) 14:12:13 elliptic: her decay is very small, but you're right, this might be a concern 14:12:30 how does the TSO piety work? spotting evil monsters for the first time? 14:12:36 decay could depend on actual piety level 14:12:41 elliptic: non-evil 14:12:44 spotting any monsters 14:12:51 oh, spotting any monster and killing evil monsters? 14:12:53 yes 14:13:09 evils you need to actually kill, but if you do, you get more piety + Makhleb healing 14:13:10 kilobyte: isn't there a commit whereby evils don't give spotting piety? I lobbied for it. 14:13:14 with a decay again? 14:13:15 ok, old Makhleb healing :p 14:13:25 elliptic: yes, decay is good 14:13:34 dpeg: yeah 14:13:45 dpeg: 1653a9b3\ 14:13:48 well, piety gain for waiting is bad 14:13:49 do all gods have decay now? iirc chei and fedhas had no decay previously as well as the good gods 14:13:53 not sure about fedhas 14:14:12 elliptic: yes, some have constant piety. What I was really concerned about is piety for waiting. 14:14:22 yes, I know that is gone :) 14:14:23 Xom currently has no "decay", which is bad 14:14:29 jpeg might do Xom 14:14:39 who needs help from outer space anyway 14:14:40 before, waiting ended in him being BORED which guaranteed only bad effects 14:14:43 well, he does tend to get bored unless you found an abuse to keep him interested 14:14:57 like a shapeshifter on the level 14:14:57 elliptic: isn't this superstition? 14:15:06 nowadays, the BORED status immediately removes itself 14:15:20 sure, he'll also be non-bored sometimes... but you'll get bad effects 14:15:27 which leads to aptly-named Xomscumming 14:15:35 the abuses are when you avoid getting many/any bad effects by keeping him interested 14:16:01 kilobyte: xomscumming requires something to keep him interested 14:16:08 anyway, we have some ideas to make Xom more appealing 14:16:16 a monster behind glass, a shapeshifter shifting on the level, maybe other abuses too 14:16:19 and the basic mechanic needs changes as well 14:16:27 oh, i thought the shapeshifter thing had been fixed 14:16:29 but it doesn't just work if you rest in temple 14:16:31 elliptic: do you have a list? I could use it. 14:16:32 marvinpa: maybe 14:16:33 elliptic: just waiting is enough, you'd get him BORED from time to time but it hardly does anything 14:16:38 seems like an easy one to fix at least, if not 14:16:39 kilobyte: uh, what? 14:16:43 you'll die from demons 14:16:45 elliptic: used to be the case, is no more 14:16:58 not if you have a way to escape 14:16:58 seriously, go talk with the people who are actually doing xomscumming 14:17:21 they need some way of avoiding dying to xom effects... a perma-friendly demon, a teletrap, something 14:17:39 yeah, which is not that hard 14:17:49 the only way he can seriously screw you up is abyssing 14:18:07 dpeg: Xom has to give permanent positive effects, on average 14:18:13 old Xom used to, with the mutations 14:18:15 current Xom doesn't 14:18:15 sure, but it is a bit more complicated than you are making it sound :) not to say that this shouldn't be addressed, just that "go and rest in temple for 443805723840 turns" is not a winning strategy 14:18:44 permanent positive effects sounds like exactly what xom shouldn't do :P 14:18:49 ais523: permanent? Has to? What is this? 14:18:50 since that's exactly what results in xomscumming 14:19:09 dpeg: in order for him to be viable 14:19:16 as a regular god to play with 14:19:22 xom doesn't need to be "viable" 14:19:23 rather than as a scummable one 14:19:36 ais523: that is rubbish. If you get a temporary executioner early on, that is worth more than a good mutation 20k turns later. 14:19:36 he just needs to be less scummable and less annoying 14:19:40 yes 14:19:56 dpeg: the problem with temporary buffs is, that unless they happen /all the time/, they don't really help the character 14:19:58 (annoying = stat and xp draining all the time) 14:20:10 if you're constantly entering fights you can't handle, then you're going to dei 14:20:12 *die 14:20:18 as you can't rely on Xom giving you what you need all the time 14:20:27 if you aren't constantly entering fights you can't handle, then you don't need help 14:20:30 so only the bad effects matter 14:20:39 so, you need some way to know that xom's help will come consistently 14:20:44 before he's any help at all 14:20:48 dpeg: yes, temporary gifts can be as good as permanent ones (the game is not permanent!)... but only if they happen when they're relevant 14:21:17 kilobyte: I know 14:21:35 ais523: if Xom would give a random good effect in every fight, he'd be awesome 14:21:45 just a matter of figuring out when it's appropriate to do temporary stuff, yeah 14:22:15 random positive effects in lots of battles would mean you'd save a lot of consumables, for example 14:22:16 dpeg: I'm not convinced; if the good effect isn't helpful, and you're fighting a fight above what you can typically manage, you're going to die 14:22:30 I hate having every god use tension... but tension was added specifically for Xom, let's him use it 14:22:44 kilobyte: yes 14:22:57 if you're fighting a battle above what you can manage then you'll burn consumables to escape instead of dying, i would hope 14:23:09 kilobyte: well, tension is a way to make things act better 14:23:13 and if xom is helping you out some of the time then that means you will have more consumables to burn 14:23:19 I suppose 14:23:33 compare DS guardian, that works quite well, imo 14:23:46 (perhaps you will need them to deal with when xom does negative stuff but hey, that's xom) 14:25:30 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:26:07 03MarvinPA * r9f9c7fa0de6d 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Don't make Xom amused by polymorphs happening out of sight 14:27:28 -!- evilmike has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:28:49 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 14:28:54 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:29:19 should I make a not on the makefile changes? 14:32:39 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:37:53 the hostile demons xom sends should really use scaling, getting surrounded by a 2 tile thick wall of demons isn't interesting... it's "have a scroll of blinking or die" 14:38:10 recently I had a string of 5 or 6 games that all ended like this before D:6 14:40:15 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:40:30 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 14:43:33 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:45:37 78291 (L14 HOMo) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 108: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,21) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 14:48:01 kilobyte: how do I get the current version of this number: 0.10-a0-807-gb39258c ? 14:49:07 dpeg: 0.10 alpha 0, it's just the first two components 14:49:21 the others give more exact info, I think 14:50:38 hey, something I just found: words by the lord himself: 14:50:42 I still check r.g.r.misc every now and then, so I've kept up with most of the 14:50:45 progress of Stone Soup. It looks great! Thanks for keeping it alive :) 14:50:47 14:50:50 Maybe one day it will get to the roguelike top spot, although nethack will be pretty hard to 14:50:53 dislodge. 14:51:02 although 2 years old :) 14:51:54 one of my friends, who plays neither Crawl nor NetHack, maintains that Crawl is more popular 14:52:02 but I suspect that's based on invalid evidence 14:52:28 we'll never really know, but the 0.10 survey may help (we'll try to also get former and short time players to take part) 14:52:53 ais523: the behaviour of the NH devteam makes it easier for us, that's for sure :) 14:53:09 indeed 14:53:24 although, I imagine that if they don't get a move on soon, the variant developers will stage a coup 14:53:25 i imagine crawl attracts far more newer players, which is good for roguelikes generally 14:53:31 it's not like we couldn't take over development on vanilla 14:54:26 and I don't think anyone's spent 28 years trying to win Crawl yet 14:54:59 Mu_: imo, the most important part of that is new players getting to see a modern (okay, semi-modern roguelike). ADOM and vanilla Nethack must feel ancient in gameplay/interface by now. 14:55:18 ais523: that is an argument purely based on age, not sure that'll help 14:55:25 I think vanilla's interface has held up pretty well 14:55:39 dpeg: well, OK, but most people would give up on a game by then unless it was really interesting 14:55:45 NetHack does have major problems 14:55:51 I think none of them are insoluble, though 14:56:00 Ace is an attempt to solve one (the interface rough edges) 14:56:11 and Un and Spork a different one (game difficulty balance) 14:56:37 ais523: the interface is a grave offender! Dying from typo near lava? 14:57:03 dpeg: you can't do that in Ace, at least while not confused or stunned 14:57:10 I'll probably add a confirmation for stunned/confused at some point too 14:57:16 ais523: I know the variants are better, that is why I said vanilla 14:57:25 although, falling into lava is typically not fatal in vanillla 14:57:44 there's normally /something/ you can do to escape before you resolve, and you generally have fire resistance by lava depth so you don't die from the heat 14:57:47 *before you dissolve 14:57:48 !tell SamB I added a ZD section to the changelog. Please check if the entries are valid and add relevant stuff I forgot. 14:57:49 dpeg: OK, I'll let SamB know. 14:58:08 03dpeg * r0ae96474a877 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Update changelog, up to 9f9c7fa0de6d822a4e957f883d5b232d6f61a8b7 14:58:09 the joy of NetHack is in its ability to let the players improvise 14:58:12 !tell edliothol Changelog has a webtiles section now. Could you have a look at it? 14:58:12 dpeg: OK, I'll let edliothol know. 14:58:21 the problem of NetHack is that optimal play mostly completely misses that 15:05:44 I believe that Nethack has three fundamental problems: closed development; no design principles (leading to featuritis, brokeness, scumming); negative interface. 15:05:54 But I have said all of this before, no time tonight. 15:09:52 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 15:11:36 kilobyte: cryptic has replied promptly! 15:11:44 Who'll answer back? 15:12:11 dpeg: none of those are fundamental problems IMO (the first two are fixed via forking, the third via improving the interface) 15:13:39 I think they're pretty fundamental because they have made the game into the mess that it is. Of course it can be repaired, everything can! 15:15:51 I'm also not convinced that featuritis is a bad thing, in all contexts 15:16:08 and brokenness/scumming are not a result of a lack of design principles, but a lack of understanding of balance 15:16:30 for instance, scumming is part of Angband, and is probably even a design principle of it, and there's nothing wrong with that 15:18:07 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:13 Hi Cryp71c! 15:18:15 dpeg, afternoon, get my reply? 15:18:16 Cryp71c: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 15:18:16 Hey 15:18:17 It is not my concern anymore to improve or defend Nethack :) Tried that for too long, with no results. 15:18:24 Cryp71c: sure, thanks for the quick reply. 15:18:36 np, I'm at work, so e-mail stays up on a secondary screen 15:18:47 Cryp71c: We'd really need kilobyte to chime in, but he's missing since an hour. 15:18:51 ah 15:18:53 !messages 15:18:53 (1/2) kilobyte said (16w 5d 1h 55m 51s ago): are you going to finish the fight rewrite for 0.9? If so, you'd have to merge it in in a week... I wonder that because there are bugs in trunk you have fixed, and on the other hand bugs in your rewrite, it'd be good to know which ones to fix. 15:19:05 we'll ping you once ge us around. 15:19:06 lol, only 16w old... 15:19:07 good stuff 15:19:09 !messages 15:19:10 (1/1) kilobyte said (5w 1d 10h 41m 20s ago): are there any chances you could do at least a partial merge of combat soon? 15:19:52 !tell kilobyte in case I'm not here when you get back (sorry for super late responses, I dropped off the earth a while back, clearly), partial merge wouldn't be recommended, at least without temporarily cutting out some pretty crucial stuff, which I don't think anyone would want. 15:19:52 Cryp71c: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 15:20:58 !tell kilobyte I've been progressively reducing conflicts and whatnot as I've gone, but haven't done that for a few months now, since I've not made any significant process. Over the next few days, I'll check back on my code and see what I've got left to do and get back to you 15:20:59 Cryp71c: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 15:21:28 dpeg, I'm heading out from work :) you caught me at the end of the day. I'll be back on possibly tonight, definitely tomorrow in about 17 hours. 15:22:34 See you guys later 15:22:35 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:22:36 should I review and merge the changes? 15:22:36 kilobyte: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 15:22:42 beh, seconds too late 15:22:50 blammo 15:22:52 :( 15:23:02 kilobyte: but he's not ducking away 15:23:15 this can wait until tomorrow (I won't be around then) -- try to catch him 15:23:17 great :) 15:23:44 I won't be around until afternoon or evening too 15:26:23 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 15:27:34 damn 15:27:46 kilobyte: might be best to reply to the email then. Would you? 15:31:28 I didn't get one 15:31:36 probably !tell would be enough 15:31:59 or that 15:32:10 I'll save the mail but won't reply then. 15:32:11 !tell Cryp71c if you are tightly strapped with time, I can try merging recent changes into your branch 15:32:11 kilobyte: OK, I'll let Cryp71c know. 15:33:23 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 15:34:23 MarvinPA: about that idea of upgrading Sword of Cerebov: currently base weapon damage and monster melee damage get added 1:1 15:34:26 @??cerebov 15:34:27 Cerebov (05&) | Speed: 10 | HD: 21 | Health: 650 | AC/EV: 30/8 | Damage: 60 | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(168), 05hellfire, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 15000 | Sp: fire storm (8d16), iron shot (3d36), haste, greater demon. 15:34:48 ??great sword 15:34:49 great sword[1/3]: A sword with a very long, heavy blade and a long handle. (two-handed Long Blade; Dam 16 Acc -3 Delay 17) 15:35:07 so you can pick any value between dam 16 and dam 76 :p 15:35:20 heh 15:35:36 ??triple sword 15:35:37 triple sword[1/1]: A magical weapon with three great razor-sharp blades. (two-handed Long Blade; Dam 19, Acc -4, Delay 190%) Great for shaving! 15:35:55 ??sword of cerebov 15:35:55 sword of cerebov[1/1]: cursed +6,+6 flaming great serpentine sword. Fire resistance is reduced by 1 point for damage calculation with this blade. 15:37:17 hm, maybe 18 or 19 is reasonable? since it can't be blessed like a triple sword, or enchanted further 15:37:52 sure, still inferior to a +9 vanilla triple sword of flaming 15:38:01 (and you can brand one yourself) 15:38:18 yeah, although triple swords are rare 15:38:41 oops, better actually, but not by much 15:39:10 i imagine cases where you'd really want to use it as your main weapon would still be rare but at least it'd be possible 15:39:59 as a n00b I once switched to it for Antaeus even though I had far better randarts... 15:49:41 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:53:12 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:55:00 I was thinking like +5 damage, so 21 with delay 17 (GSC is 22, delay 18). Cerebov is the possibly the strongest monster in the game after all so it's not going to turn a character overpowered if they can kill him anyway... 15:59:49 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 16:05:27 edlothiol: hi! 16:08:30 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 16:09:36 hi dpeg 16:11:25 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:19:49 elliptic: you changed the generation of rings of slaying, but not randarts. What values should they get? 16:20:45 edlothiol: Changelog has a webtiles section now. Could you have a look at it? 16:22:53 dpeg: just did, it looks good, although I think I'd say that Webtiles games can be watched from SSH for the second point 16:23:18 also, it's too few entries, I need to do more ;) 16:23:23 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 16:24:11 hey 16:24:55 btw, dpeg, I'd be interested in taking a look at the 0.10 survey (although I can't guarantee I'll have any interesting comments ;) 16:26:12 galehar: If you have a minute, I put a small patch up in 4667 regarding the skill menu. 16:26:16 edlothiol: cool, will send it your way. If I forget (drawing pictures right now), please remind me. 16:26:27 galehar: Bonsoir! 16:26:36 Well, regarding training, maybe is more specific. 16:26:53 edlothiol: please add to changelog, I tried as good as I could :) 16:27:20 someone broke tiles: tilepick.cc:1632: error: 'TILEP_MONS_BRIMSTONE_FIEND' was not declared in this scope 16:28:25 Fiends were meant to be renamed to brimstone fiends. 16:30:47 Fyren: yeah, good point with the patch, thanks. 16:31:36 Fyren: yes, I saw the commit about the fiend renaming. Tiles still broke... 16:32:19 dolorous catches many details, but he ain't a tilist either. 16:33:10 i think it's just rltiles/dc-mon.txt that was missed, and the renaming of the tile itself 16:33:25 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:33:31 just compiling tiles to check 16:34:10 03edlothiol * rfe814731d1a2 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: A tiny changelog reformulation. 16:34:19 03edlothiol * r99bbdd58594e 10/crawl-ref/source/webserver/ (process_handler.py ws_handler.py): A bit of cleanup in the Webtiles server. 16:34:19 03edlothiol * r94416f7f1bc2 10/crawl-ref/source/tileview.cc: Update a few comments. 16:35:32 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 16:35:48 MarvinPA: yeah, already done several minutes ago (minus edlothiol's push) 16:36:01 ah cool 16:36:08 03kilobyte * rfb340e937844 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Fix tiles compilation. 16:36:09 03kilobyte * r4dd451cfb96f 10/crawl-ref/source/defines.h: Remove an unused #define. 16:37:02 galehar: is priests not training staves by default intentional? 16:37:10 no 16:43:57 edlothiol: check other channel, please 16:47:51 dpeg: not sure what you mean 16:50:19 other irc client window? 16:50:37 now? 16:51:13 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 16:53:04 elliptic: I've been thinking about your proposal of making skill cost depend on XP rather than skill points. It would have a direct effect on balance regarding the effect on aptitudes on skill cost progress. 16:53:28 dpeg: i think theres a mistake in the changelog. you wrote "* Plants and non-livings dying does count as friend dying (also in Crawl).". From the commit message it looks like the reverse is true: "* Plants and non-livings dying no longer counts as friends dying (also in Crawl)." 16:53:29 galehar: it would? I thought that aptitudes didn't matter for this 16:53:56 because they just affect how many skill points you need to get a skill to a given level, not how much each skill point costs 16:53:57 for a set amount of XP, you gain more skill points for high apt, meaning skill cost progress faster 16:54:47 really? 16:54:55 doesn't that mean that skill training is noncommutative still? 16:54:58 your proposal means skill cost would progress always at the same speed. Probably a good thing, but it would make it even more desirable to train high apt skills 16:55:28 alefury: bug, yes 16:55:37 I'm confused about this, really 16:55:57 I thought the whole point of some of the 0.9 skill changes was to make skill cost always progress at the same speed 16:56:11 hmmm 16:56:22 but you are the one who actually knows the code :) 16:56:39 maybe not 16:57:03 no, what am I saying. apt doesn't affect amount of skill points 16:58:02 stop coding for a couple of weeks and you forget everything... 16:58:33 kilobyte: randart slaying should only get a slight buff if anything... I wasn't trying to compensate for things fully. My changes to rings come out to something like +2/3 on average, but without pushing the max value higher... you could do something like this for randarts too 16:59:09 in other words, it's supposed to be mostly a nerf rather than simplification, ok 16:59:56 kilobyte: I'm open to the idea of tweaking things upwards more, but I did think that slaying would still be plenty strong 17:01:07 yeah, it can take a nerf 17:01:23 galehar: okay, I'm glad things work like that at least :) 17:01:55 on the topic of monster re-spawning: I'd like to have no jellies already for 0.10. Ideally, no tiny critters either. Is anyone interesting in the latter; can I coerce someone into the jellies? :) 17:02:08 03dpeg * rf360ec647e35 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Fix error in changelog (galefury). 17:02:18 alefury: thank you! 17:02:23 :) 17:02:27 elliptic: yeah, sorry about confusion (I was the one confused). So your proposal is simple and good, I'll look into it. 17:02:42 galehar: new job has started? 17:10:32 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:11:33 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 17:13:00 dpeg: yes, I started last week 17:13:32 dpeg: I like the fisherman with the greedy wife story :) 17:14:06 no jellies? 17:14:14 on, no jelly spawns? 17:15:22 no respawning jellies 17:15:38 yaay # 17:17:19 galehar: not sure if the players got the point, but they stopped harassing me :) 17:17:56 due: only no respawns. Jellies upon level building are pure gold. I would make some jelly vaults to compensate for the unfortunate jellycide. 17:18:51 dpeg: Oh, I know 17:25:47 galehar: France vs New Zealand, who'd have thought :) 17:27:55 dpeg: well, I was hoping for that from the beginning, but I would never had imagine it could happen this way 17:28:43 they will probably obliterate us, but it will be hilarious if they don't 17:29:31 * dpeg admits he has a soft spot for the All Blacks. 17:29:45 who doesn't? 17:29:53 they are awesome 17:30:13 And you don't have Chabal in your ranks. Did he retire? 17:30:40 no, he's still playing. But he wasn't chosen 17:31:11 he was not so good lately, and there are many other good players 17:31:27 but are they as good looking? :) 17:31:50 yes, probably a big loss for marketing! 17:33:20 hey, I made this proposal about giving GDR some conservation effect. Has this been discussed here? 17:33:38 what do you guys think about it? 17:33:41 I support it 17:34:11 formula could be straight. the gdr % is used for save chance 17:34:21 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:34:22 gdr would need better documentation btw 17:34:28 galehar: true! 17:34:55 ideally in the item description 17:35:11 I'd rather base it on your actual AC, I think 17:35:24 elliptic: that is what I proposed too. But then galehar countered :) 17:39:23 elliptic: problem with AC is that it would be optimal (and tedious) to switch to ring of protection for exploring/travelling (because of could and zot traps) 17:39:47 or cast ozo 17:40:01 I don't much like item destruction traps :P but that's a good point while they exist 17:40:19 I'm wary of assigning too much to GDR, though 17:41:04 GDR was just supposed to be a boost for heavy armour chars in melee... not an important statistic of the armour 17:41:08 would be sort of weird for nagas and draconians, where you have a bunch of AC but no gdr 17:41:25 well, I think conservation is an interesting property to give to GDR, and the fact that you can't change it quickly and easily is important I think. 17:41:52 basing it on the AC of your body armour is reasonable, but I don't see any reason to try to use the same formula 17:42:08 03kilobyte * r256219a570de 10/crawl-ref/source/artefact.cc: Adjust randart slaying: 1..4 -> 2..6. 17:42:33 kilobyte: you are more generous than I would have been :) 17:42:39 ok you're right, AC is simpler and more transparent 17:43:11 so, AC% to save? 17:44:21 regarding cloud traps, they can probably afford to be more rare and less bugged 17:44:27 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 17:44:44 things being less bugged is always good :P 17:46:06 even more so for features that are supposed to bug the player 17:46:22 elliptic: kilobyte is trying to build up brownie points with the players! 17:46:35 galehar: oh, they are bugged! 17:46:41 can you have mercy and tone down D:13 web traps too, we've tested them enough :( 17:47:07 one option, by the way, is to make item destruction chances depend on what proportion of the damage was prevented by AC 17:47:28 -!- Pacra has quit [Client Quit] 17:47:46 so one AC roll, which protects against both damage and item destruction? 17:47:47 since currently it is a bit strange that if AC reduces damage from a yaktaur bolt of fire to 0, then you don't get any item destruction 17:47:49 great idea 17:47:57 but if it reduces it to 1, you have normal chance 17:48:16 mhh, that runs into the same problem as something else suggested in the tavern thread 17:48:24 currently clouds are the most item destructive 17:48:36 but they are also low damage, and are greatly reduced by ac 17:48:39 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 17:49:18 so it greatly shifts around the dangerousness of various item destroying effects. instead of just throwing heavy armor chars a bone. 17:49:35 yes, it would be a tricky change to make work 17:50:12 also i think using gdr would be better than using ac. ac tends to be pretty low early on, and even dodgy chars can get it pretty high with lucky finds. 17:50:40 gdr is fairly constant, and helps those who get screwed over the most by item destruction. 17:50:53 alefury: I don't get it about shifting dangerousness. What's the problem? 17:51:26 i dont know who was arguing against using damage to set a chance of item destruction, but this is the same problem. 17:51:29 item destruction is pretty low early on too. 17:51:41 * dpeg looks up "mercy" in the dictionary. 17:51:53 -!- Pacra has quit [Client Quit] 17:51:59 ah, comment by galehr: 17:52:10 Tying it to damage would mean shifting the threats. Instead of clouds being the most dangerous, it's now just the big attacks. Firestorm initial blast destroy more items than the clouds it leaves. And as evilmike pointed out, resists would give a better protection than AC. It would also lead to even more item destruction in the late game and/or much less in the early game. 17:52:40 dpeg: "mercy": +3HP 17:53:36 tying it to proportion of damage prevented by AC dodges some of the problems, but not others. 17:53:40 alefury: yes, it was about tying item destruction to damage, no about tying conservation to AC. 17:54:15 i was talking about this: one option, by the way, is to make item destruction chances depend on what proportion of the damage was prevented by AC 17:54:29 I'm honestly not sure what the intended purposes are for item destruction, so it is hard to weigh these options 17:55:01 if the goal right now is just to give heavy armor chars a bone (which is reasonable enough), then we can just tie it to base AC of body armor, like I said earlier 17:55:05 from what dpeg explained on the tavern: limiting the amount of consumables a player can reasonably carry. 17:55:42 sure, but at what stages of the game should it be the biggest threat? which chars should it affect most? 17:55:49 I don't really know the answers to these questions 17:56:02 elliptic: we're flexible here. 17:56:11 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:56:17 We can target all characters equally across the board, but we don't have to. 17:56:17 heavy armour chars tend to have much higher strength and thus higher carrying capacity, so it might actually be *desirable* that they be affected more 17:56:27 i think that it varies more by area than by level is good 17:56:37 Currently we seem to think that meleeists need a helping hand. Using AC for conservation would do that. 17:56:44 it produces interesting stuff like "don't bring potions into cocytus" 17:57:00 alefury: sure, we want to keep that. 17:57:35 I think AC based builds suffer more from item destruction than EV based ones. And since they have less spells, they need the consumables more. 17:57:36 elliptic: not sure on that. Casters are by definition a lot more flexible. Allowing heavy fighters more tools does not seem unreasable. 17:57:39 currently the largest item-destroyer, by far, is *taurs 17:58:01 we probably want to cut back on those a lot anyway 17:58:35 on the monster type or their item destruction capabilities? 17:58:46 definitely the former, maybe the latter 17:58:51 elliptic: yes, there's so many sources of item destruction, the bigger ones might need to be reduced. 17:59:08 i think evktalo is working on a vaults monster list and eliminating pretty much everything but *taurs (as per the wiki page) 17:59:15 so you might want to talk to him about that 17:59:25 well, the idea would be to eliminate *taurs in D, not V 17:59:29 they make more sense in V 17:59:37 of course 17:59:50 true 17:59:58 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: zz] 18:01:37 I guess the thing I don't like about basing conservation on base AC is that it seems artificial... I don't really understand why wearing plate mail vs splint mail should matter when wearing a non-preservation cloak doesn't 18:01:45 or why the enchantment on the armour doesn't matter 18:03:20 I understand the desire to make certain sources of AC not help (gloves, boots, rings of protection, etc), but it still doesn't seem right to me to just focus on the base type of the armour you are wearing 18:05:51 elliptic: think of it like this: someone with base AC 1 will carry a wooden backpack, someone with base AC 3 one from leather. And a guy with base AC 12 has a backpack of steel. 18:07:33 * SamB realizes that he has to pull before he can check dpeg's changelog changes 18:12:22 i just look at stuff on gitourious :) 18:12:33 SamB: you can just "fetch" 18:13:05 kilobyte: but that doesn't let me look at it in emacs ... 18:13:06 SamB: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 18:13:11 !messages 18:13:12 (1/1) dpeg said (3h 15m 23s ago): I added a ZD section to the changelog. Please check if the entries are valid and add relevant stuff I forgot. 18:13:16 pull is a shorthand for "fetch && merge" 18:13:30 SamB: do you know magit? 18:13:41 SamB: well, you can then checkout it as a branch, or look at diffs, or... 18:14:28 my point was that I had forgetten that it was necessary to *do* something besides opening the (stale) file in emacs ;-P 18:15:08 poor SamB cannot pull it off :) 18:15:40 I thought it was an amusing thing to have forgotten, is all 18:16:41 -!- Xiberia has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:21:52 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 18:22:49 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 18:23:39 SamB: "emacs"?" "well, there's your problem!" 18:23:56 due: ... right 18:24:03 so you're saying ed can do that? 18:27:53 no, I'm just furthering the emacs wars! 18:27:58 * due is a good little rebel fighter? 18:29:14 um, dude 18:29:30 the emacs/vi flamewar is so 1980s 18:34:52 yeah, in the 2010s it's emacs vs vim 18:38:19 never give up! never surrender! 18:40:53 good night 18:40:57 -!- alefury has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:55:38 #emacs doesn't care anymore 18:55:47 and neither do I 18:57:59 baiting people is no fun when people don't care :) 18:59:27 I maintain that emacs sucks more than vim 19:01:01 I've never used emacs 19:01:42 i have 19:02:38 but not since learning vim via vimtutor 19:06:52 I use it because it runs many useful applications 19:07:15 the text editor could use work, granted ... 19:07:35 why not use butterfly mode instead? 19:14:13 because evidently that needs a "butterfly" key 19:17:32 -!- petete has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 19:17:43 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 19:19:49 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:35:33 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 19:38:39 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 20:17:53 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 20:58:18 78291 (L27 DDSu) ERROR in 'mon-place.cc' at line 1378: invalid monster to place: Ignacio (499) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 21:06:10 03elliptic * r150e42009a96 10/crawl-ref/source/ (makeitem.cc shopping.cc): More ring of slaying tweaks. 21:06:46 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 21:06:48 moo 21:06:48 Cryp71c: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 21:06:50 !messages 21:06:51 (1/1) kilobyte said (5h 34m 39s ago): if you are tightly strapped with time, I can try merging recent changes into your branch 21:06:59 !seen kilobyte 21:06:59 I last saw kilobyte at Wed Oct 19 23:13:40 2011 UTC (2h 53m 19s ago) saying SamB: well, you can then checkout it as a branch, or look at diffs, or... on ##crawl-dev. 21:07:31 !tell kilobyte that would help, certainly, but I certainly wouldn't empose it upon you unless you are swimming in spare time. 21:07:32 Cryp71c: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 21:07:51 !tell kilobyte s/empose/impose 21:07:51 Cryp71c: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 21:12:24 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:16:28 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 21:18:04 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:26:21 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 21:34:43 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 21:36:53 -!- dtsund has quit [Client Quit] 21:41:29 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 22:01:01 -!- MarvinPA has quit [] 22:03:51 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:38 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 22:45:35 -!- petete has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:49:49 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:55:10 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:56:20 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:02:31 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:03:17 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:03:46 -!- SamB_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:05:20 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:05:21 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:05:23 -!- Wensley_ is now known as Wensley 23:05:54 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:09:41 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 23:17:26 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 23:38:39 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:40:35 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 23:40:38 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 23:40:38 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 23:40:43 hi 23:46:51 Hi 23:56:47 silly europeans and their "being asleep" 23:57:10 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 23:58:29 HOW DARE THEY etc. 23:59:35 I think americans are starting to be asleep now, too 23:59:40 -!- Sequell has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]