00:03:36 -!- raskol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:04:02 -!- raskol has joined ##crawl-dev 00:33:24 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1332-gdc18acb (32) 00:43:47 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 00:54:09 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:06 -!- elliptic has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:22:57 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 01:23:20 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 01:23:51 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 01:35:05 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:40:44 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 01:45:08 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:48:15 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:48:29 -!- Wensley_ is now known as Wensley 01:49:31 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:02:11 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 02:05:19 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 02:12:47 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- s0 d4Mn l33t |t'z 5c4rY!] 02:17:24 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:21:28 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:42:37 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:57:46 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 03:39:45 morning 03:42:02 Guten Morgen! 03:42:42 bmh: IIRC !lm doesn't even show any deaths other than those you survived due to felidness 03:43:07 * kilobyte meows at the local germans. 03:45:36 Witam! 03:48:24 morninq 03:48:53 cze´s´c! 03:49:04 dzien dobry 03:49:44 hmm, rax? not sure I should add the "make clean/git clean" to the automated build-process.. I think it would mean, that compiling a new version takes much longer 03:54:38 Napkin: if something requires manual cleaning, it is buggy 03:54:46 if it is buggy, please shout loud enough 03:54:50 nah 03:55:23 the thing is, that we need to name binaries to access their git hash as version 03:56:04 so.. the make next day doesn't replace the binary, as it would normally 03:56:29 so.. rax had 10gb of crawl binaries in the source tree 03:56:44 not a crawl bug :) 03:57:28 ah, a bug in the building scripts. Still a bug :) 03:58:20 hey, the next roguelike radio podcast seems to also mention dcss: http://roguelikeradio.blogspot.com/2011/10/episode-8-progression-systems.html 03:58:48 dcss is not mentionend in the description, but it's in the tags :) 03:59:54 Napkin: doesn't the script also cp the binary to a new place. why not s/cp/mv ? 04:00:17 bhaak: Crawl has been mentioned already in the first cast =) 04:01:29 dpeg: only as a side remark. now they are talking about game mechanics where I'd expect them to get deeper into it 04:01:39 bhaak: sure. Thanks for pointer! 04:02:34 Hey, they have "limiting resources and anti-scumming" in the agenda. That's good! 04:02:55 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 04:03:46 i wonder what the angband guys on the team will say about that :) 04:03:58 <3 the roguelike radio 04:04:31 moin Eino 04:04:35 Hi Marc :) 04:05:26 bhaak: because that would mean to maintain local patches to the install target in the makefile - and it was one of greensnark's goals not to do that :) 04:06:06 they are all busy in here, Eino - listing to new episode of roguelike radio: http://roguelikeradio.blogspot.com/2011/10/episode-8-progression-systems.html 04:06:52 Napkin: currently the makefile doesn't allow out-of-tree building, but you can still install to a staging area 04:07:11 install = copy 04:07:28 Napkin: in fact, all packaging: Windows zips, Windows installer, Debian, etc, all do that and nuke the staging dir afterwards. 04:07:31 != mv - like bhaak suggested 04:07:44 yeak, but the binary is called "crawl" at that point 04:08:16 Napkin: i just completely didn't understand that answer :) is the script online somewhere? 04:08:28 I haven't listened to the podcast yet (any of the episodes). Cool, Powder in the next episode. 04:09:34 bhaak: the script that copies the binary is crawl's makefile - and it uses "install", which is like cp instead of mv - as you suggested. so changing it to a moving command would mean modifying the makefile, which is too error prone 04:10:09 Napkin: But where is the renaming done? 04:11:04 make GAME=crawl-git-abcdef13 04:11:51 hmm 04:12:45 And that is in some script ran by cron? 04:12:55 arg, guys 04:13:16 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 04:13:19 We're not helping? ;) 04:13:40 exactly ;) 04:13:57 soz <3 04:14:24 weird non standard compilations results in not application of standard solutions ;-) 04:15:22 not that i am in any position to cast the first stone :-D 04:15:42 wow, and greensnark make a harsh automagic file creation system.. can't even modify some files by hand, because they will be overwritten 04:15:50 but of course, they have already been changed manually :D 04:16:42 monthly cronjob with git clean -dfx seems easier ;) 04:16:48 back to work o/ 04:30:00 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:40:10 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:41:10 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 04:56:27 -!- jle_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:59:55 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 05:03:19 -!- raskol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:18:06 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 05:19:32 -!- raskol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:19:55 Could the "Slower teleports" mutation also delay blinking? 05:20:16 could be damn tricky with cBlink 05:20:41 -!- syraine has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:24:08 Heh, yeah. Gameplay-wise, it might be cool if the spot you wanted sometimes got occupied. 05:25:26 Low-powered Blink spell could also have delay.. the delay could also be less than a turn, so you don't act before the blink kicks in, but monsters might. 05:27:32 That sounds interesting 05:28:10 though I bet I will kill lots of early wizards if that is implemented :P 05:28:32 I admit, Blink spell feels a little cheap to me. (: 05:28:49 The teleport delay could also be in auts, not turns. 05:30:09 03kilobyte * r1817cec4d07a 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-summoning.cc: Fix Animate Dead ignoring any corpses on a spot after the first. 05:30:39 Oh, was that a bug? 05:32:13 looking at the code, most likely 05:32:31 had no balance effects other than annoyance, too 05:37:13 CDO updates seemed to be stuck due to a dependency problem 05:37:19 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1344-g1817cec (32) 05:41:14 -!- Zannick has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:46:46 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 06:03:40 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 06:03:49 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 06:06:00 -!- Twinge_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:22:30 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:34:23 qeurul (L12 OpSu) (Lair:2) 06:34:32 !lm querul type=crash -log 06:34:33 No milestones for querul (type=crash). 06:36:43 qeurul (L12 OpSu) (Lair:2) 06:42:14 !lm qeurul type=crash -log 06:42:15 2. qeurul, XL12 OpSu, T:27048 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/qeurul/crash-qeurul-20111018-113637.txt 06:42:35 kilobyte, you've broken animate dead :P 06:44:51 qeurul (L12 OpSu) (Lair:2) 06:44:52 Zaba: ook? 06:45:53 kilobyte, well, it crashes in animate_dead for qeurul and you've changed it recently :P 06:48:01 hrm, an infinite loop... except, the loop condition should continue only if animate succeeded 06:49:49 qeurul (L12 OpSu) (Lair:2) 06:51:38 Getting abyssed in zig results in abyss exit crashing the game (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4769) by Surr 06:52:44 ... ah, there's a monster tracer 06:56:16 03kilobyte * rd5be439574a1 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Fix a compiler warning. 06:56:17 03kilobyte * rfdba289e8bf0 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-summoning.cc: Fix an infinite loop on monster Animate Dead tracer. 06:59:00 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1346-gfdba289 (32) 07:00:25 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:00:45 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:01:07 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 07:03:22 -!- raskol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:03:53 -!- raskol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:05:25 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 07:08:38 qeurul (L12 OpSu) (Lair:2) 07:21:34 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:36:24 -!- petete has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:37:06 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 07:41:58 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 07:56:09 03kilobyte * r13e588cc67b0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/des/zotdef/zotdef.des newgame.cc): Allow players to choose a map in ZotDef. 07:56:09 03kilobyte * re82961dcbd02 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Revert "Revert no ZotDef hunger for non-Sp." 07:56:19 03kilobyte * r1917670cb8c3 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/zotdef/zotdef.des: Reduce the width of the second battle area in ZotDef: Battle Heart. 07:57:56 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1349-ge82961d (32) 08:03:14 -!- raskol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:04:06 03kilobyte * rbd996869b19e 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Make ZotDef map selection actually work. 08:04:47 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1350-gbd99686 (32) 08:06:25 phyphor (L12 TrDK) (Lair:5) 08:10:36 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:12:14 !tell SamB What about mentioning ZD rules in A screen? (Perhhaps in a special colour.) 08:12:15 dpeg: OK, I'll let SamB know. 08:15:55 78291 (L18 OgHu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 108: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,52) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 08:19:21 -!- raskol has joined ##crawl-dev 08:22:17 Napkin: Might be worth making a weekly cronjob or something instead? 08:22:18 rax: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 08:22:21 !messages 08:22:21 (1/3) PlasticMars said (2w 2d 16h 13m 51s ago): Hi, when I try to reload my save game in CAO it says that another game is already in progress using the save. The advanced options screen seems to be not working so I can't delete the save. Could you help? 08:22:25 !messages 08:22:25 (1/2) SamB said (1w 2d 7h 34m 24s ago): I broke Crawl just before the daily update; could you redeploy ASAP, if Napkin can't do it for CAO? 08:22:28 !messages 08:22:28 (1/1) faze` said (5h 25m 4s ago): there's a problem with spectating. player location isn't working correctly on the screen that show games in progress. i figured i'd let you know. 08:22:58 Huh, that is a problem and I have no idea why. 08:23:16 More weirdly, it works for one user but not most of them. 08:23:46 ps -ef | grep notify ? 08:23:50 Also for people who care CAO now has 100G more of disk space, so running out is not going to be an issue for a while. 08:24:01 <3 08:24:13 Nothing running as "notify" 08:24:17 Is there some script I need to start? 08:24:44 yes, a perl daemon, which reads the char.where files and created char.dglwhere, which is used by DGL 08:25:07 crawl-inotify-dglwhere.sh in your path? 08:25:18 Nope, I can try to find it though 08:25:37 Should I run the .sh or the .pl? 08:25:50 Does the /sh daemonize the pl or something? I guess I could just read them :) 08:25:57 check the .sh - it should be a sudo dgl bla.pl 08:26:07 Looks like it does, yeah 08:26:08 hehe - don't look at the perl script! 08:26:42 It's... not executable? *boggle* 08:27:13 The perl script is just fine :) 08:28:00 crawl@crawl:~/conf-dgamelaunch/bin$ sudo ./crawl-inotify-dglwhere.sh 08:28:00 ./crawl-inotify-dglwhere.sh: line 3: assert-chroot-exists: command not found 08:28:01 ./crawl-inotify-dglwhere.sh: line 4: cat-error: command not found 08:28:14 Those are not in the same directory 08:28:19 Mahybe I need to run it as actual root? 08:28:51 Nope, still can't find them, and sudo: no passwd entry for perl! 08:28:55 I am not sure how this ever worked. 08:30:02 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 08:31:06 !coffee rax 08:31:07 * Henzell hands rax a pot of café mocha, brewed by Makhleb. 08:31:29 Perhaps I am best off just manually invoking the perl script with the correct arguments. 08:32:16 Huh, what is the $DGL_USER? THere are a bunch of variables in there that don't seem to get defined. Are they assumed to be in the environment? 08:33:27 <|amethyst> rax: it looks like you're supposed to source sh-utils first, which in turn sources dgl-manage.conf, which sets DGL_USER 08:34:07 78291 (L18 OgHu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 108: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,52) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 08:34:25 <|amethyst> rax: sh-utils is also what defines assert-chroot-exists and cat-error 08:34:40 Where are you getting sh-utils from? 08:34:51 <|amethyst> top level of dgamelaunch-config 08:35:24 Oh OK cool. Ummm... hrm. 08:36:25 The README doesn't explain any of that, but does tell me how to do it manually. 08:36:29 <|amethyst> maybe try bin/dgl crawl-inotify-dglwhere 08:36:59 Same errors. 08:37:14 There is nothing in that script that sources the other file. 08:38:06 <|amethyst> bin/dgl looks like it sources sh-utils if we're both talking about version 825c2bd5 08:38:14 Huh come to think of it I also don't know what the arguments are supposed to be 08:38:21 Like, "morguedir?" There is more than one version 08:38:35 I have no idea what version I am running, someone else dropped this on the machine :) 08:39:30 ...wait what 08:39:37 ./dgl crawl-inotify-where worked? 08:39:50 ... 08:39:51 ... 08:39:54 I don't understand _how_ 08:40:18 *reads code* 08:40:34 ...OH I misread what you typed I am sorry 08:40:38 <|amethyst> the copy I fetched here (of bin/dgl) does: cd blah; source sh-utils; ...; source "$ACTION_SCRIPT" at the end 08:40:41 Yes OK, this makes some sense now, thank you 08:42:28 <|amethyst> hm... these script break when POSIXLY_CORRECT is set 08:42:36 <|amethyst> I guess that's pretty common for bash scripts though 08:43:22 -!- petete has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:51:45 <|amethyst> !tell greensnark I think bin/dgl in dgamelaunch-config should do source ./sh-utils instead of source sh-utils -- otherwise if you happen to have something called 'sh-utils' in $PATH it will source that instead 08:51:46 |amethyst: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 08:55:49 wtf? is this POSIX behaviour or a bashism? 08:56:32 <|amethyst> POSIX 08:56:38 |amethyst: I don't think there is a point in !telling greensnark. 08:56:52 <|amethyst> hm 08:57:03 Is there anyone else with access to the scripts? 08:57:21 <|amethyst> bhaak: bash has a shell option you can use to turn off the path search for source/. but it's there by default 08:57:36 <|amethyst> bhaak: in fact, it's a bashism to search the current directory 08:58:12 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:00:49 <|amethyst> I guess I could create a github account and make a pull request 09:01:05 -!- raskol has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:01:14 <|amethyst> not today, though 09:01:46 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:03:17 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 09:05:28 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:09:06 that sounds like a rather dangerous default 09:09:18 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 09:09:23 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 09:09:23 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 09:09:27 morning 09:12:15 <|amethyst> There, made it a pull request 09:20:06 03kilobyte * r360abbfceb55 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/zotdef/zotdef.des: Fix ZotDef loot not spawning. 09:23:41 <|amethyst> bhaak: the idea, I guess, is that it should work the same way as executing a program 09:24:29 <|amethyst> bhaak: by that view bash's searching . is the (potentially dangerous) anomaly 09:24:30 |amethyst: how come? Bash doesn't put . into $PATH unless you do that by hand. 09:24:50 <|amethyst> I mean, the idea behind the POSIX behaviour 09:25:11 ah 09:25:35 right, POSIXLY_CORRECT is documented as forcing POSIX behaviour when POSIX and sanity disagree 09:26:07 <|amethyst> yeah, but that disables other bashisms 09:26:31 <|amethyst> (and breaks dgl, which has shell functions with '-' in the name) 09:28:02 <|amethyst> I'm not sure where the bash behaviour came from, anyway... none of classic Bourne shell, ksh, and POSIX shell source from . 09:29:57 |amethyst: I just tested: bash doesn't look at . no matter if POSIXLY_CORRECT is set or not 09:30:32 <|amethyst> huh? it does here. dgamelaunch-config wouldn't work at all if it didn't 09:30:38 (at least bash 4.1-3 on Debian) 09:32:08 <|amethyst> same version here 09:32:23 same on CDO: doesn't look at . with either option 09:32:28 <|amethyst> echo 'echo worked' > foo; . foo prints "worked" here 09:33:03 er, what? I thought you mean executing things from ., not sourcing them 09:33:08 <|amethyst> no, sourcing 09:33:42 it works just as every other file reference 09:33:49 like, say, "cat foo" 09:34:01 <|amethyst> cat doesn't search $PATH though 09:34:03 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:34:25 <|amethyst> try . ls and you'll get "cannot execute binary file" because it found /bin/ls 09:34:43 hrm, indeed... weird 09:34:52 seems greatly counterintuitive 09:35:29 <|amethyst> shell is greatly counterintuitive, and bash perhaps even more so :) 09:41:55 <|amethyst> I guess Chet (or maybe Brian Fox) thought as you that it would be more intutive to source from the current directory; but since the path search was traditional behaviour it couldn't be removed... leading to something even more confusing 09:44:08 <|amethyst> just conjecture, though... bash has no (public) VC repository so I can't check the history beyond what CHANGES tells me (and it doesn't go earlier than 2.0-alpha2 anyway) 09:45:15 <|amethyst> It's no accident that "the cathredral" in ESR's papers was referring to GNU :) 09:46:57 (ESR is a crazy racist gun nut without significant source contributions.) 09:47:51 * bhaak doesn't mention that nethack _has_ significant source code contributions by ESR 09:48:07 bhaak: Yet another reason we don't like nethack :) 09:48:40 <|amethyst> I'm not a fan either, but I think identifying the Linux development model as generally superior to the GNU one was spot-on 09:49:07 OTOH, using fetchmail as a testing ground wasn't one of his smartest ideas 09:49:37 if I knew how he "developed" fetchmail I wouldn't have lost that much mail in the olden days 09:51:39 <|amethyst> oh, speaking of ESR... the *original* author of the Jargon file is my director of graduate studies :) 09:52:05 <|amethyst> (not gls, before that) 09:58:47 bhaak: you, sir, are a liar! 09:58:47 SamB: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 09:58:51 !messages 09:58:51 (1/1) dpeg said (1h 46m 36s ago): What about mentioning ZD rules in A screen? (Perhhaps in a special colour.) 09:59:20 mmm, colors 09:59:36 SamB: I am? that's not possible, as I am a member of a people full of bankers 09:59:59 This conversation just got awkward. 10:00:02 there's a project where ESR and me are the only maintainers; we end up arguing a lot 10:00:06 when it's active 10:00:21 ais523_: Why don't you fork it? 10:00:27 bhaak: you claimed you were not mentioning a thing 10:00:33 bhaak: as you mentioned it! 10:00:55 bmh: I did, originally; we merged it back together again a while back 10:01:00 ha. 10:01:03 refork! 10:01:09 spoon it! 10:05:34 -!- ais523_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:08:14 * dpeg shakes head in disbelief. 10:08:22 yes, dpeg? 10:09:17 I cannot decide who's the greatest lunatic around. 10:09:33 It used to be me, but I am not confident anymore. 10:09:41 dpeg: Be the lunatic you want to… damn, I didn't even get to finish that thought. 10:10:17 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: Time to have a "job"] 10:13:22 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 10:17:50 poor GDB devs ... they (most of them, anyway) want to switch to git completely, but GNU politics are making it a bit complicated ... 10:20:06 So has anyone acknowledged that a common feature (experience card) has crashed the last several versions of tiles yet 10:24:08 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 10:29:44 looks like it's on mantis, yes 10:35:09 Well I mean, on the devteam 10:35:13 (I reported it days ago) 10:35:44 there are 1000 open bugs :P 10:36:03 This is true, but it makes a god completely unplayable atm 10:36:27 im sure someone saw it, but there arent that many devs, and fixing bugs takes time 10:36:37 Fair enough 10:36:45 and even less tiles devs, unfortunately 10:36:51 I was just getting antsy since I saw no acknowledgement 10:36:59 * SamB keeps forgetting to even try to reproduce it 10:37:17 It can be reproduced in wizmode 100% of the time 10:37:48 something also seemed weird the last time i quaffed !exp 10:37:53 but no crash 10:38:12 i think i got a black screen instead of the menu where you distribute exp to skills 10:38:13 RichardHawk: yeah but I wanted to build something recent first ;-) 10:41:13 dpeg: when it comes to being a lunatic, there are some folks who are simply impossible to beat 10:41:22 have you seen Gnome 3? 10:41:58 * Zaba haven't seen gnome 3 apart from on screenshots 10:42:13 is it very lunatic? 10:42:22 Mu_: could you have a look at #4571 on mantis? looks like it'd be fixed with some no_tele_into stuff but vault syntax is scary and i don't want to butcher the vault by trying it myself :P 10:43:02 kilobyte: CPM trove price is contrary to the general goals of trove prices 10:43:05 Zaba: it has two versions: one is a poor clone of iPhone1, the other has a bare menu you can't edit, not even a desktop or launchers, and nothing else 10:43:12 and i guess unseen_surprise is the other vault mentioned in the comments, i can handle that one safely :P 10:43:17 MarvinPA: could just put a hatch in there 10:43:18 which are to not be *purely* a matter of luck finding the item 10:43:29 its done that way for the other possibly enclosed spaces on that level 10:43:30 kilobyte, hmm.. sounds.. like fun 10:43:33 mm, hatch would also work, i think there's quite a lot of rooms that can potentially be enclosed? 10:43:35 ah okay 10:44:13 Zaba: oh, and it has an absolute dependency on network-manager (AKA no networking more complex than a single DHCP interface) 10:44:35 what ever happened to the suggestions for renaming a few monsters anyway? 10:45:03 imp -> crimson imp, fiend -> brimstone fiend were I think fairly uncontroversial at least 10:45:15 oh, i do have some of that started in a branch i think 10:45:17 elliptic: ok, you're probably right about troves. What should I put there instead? 10:45:21 i did imps at least 10:45:39 elliptic: do swamp dragons generate out of Swamp? I can't remember ever seeing one. 10:45:48 kilobyte: could do steam I guess 10:45:52 don't think so 10:46:08 what about the lair dragon cave? can it only have ice/fire? 10:46:29 really it would be good to rename dragon if we can agree on something... this causes confusion not just for troves 10:46:51 whats wrong with fire dragon? works fine for fire drake 10:46:52 fire dragon still seems nice and simple to me! :P 10:46:53 "regular dragon"? :p 10:47:26 "normal non-fancy and not recoloured dragon from pre-D&D legends"? 10:47:27 fire dragon, common dragon, ember dragon, cinder dragon... were the main suggestions I think 10:48:43 vanilla dragon :) 10:48:58 personally I like "dragon" also... but it does cause some trouble 10:49:18 if they were called fire dragons in an analogy with fire drakes, their glyph would have to be red 10:49:35 why? 10:49:50 because it's only a half-analogy otherwise 10:49:55 even just renaming dragon armour could be okay 10:50:46 that sounds like the best option 10:51:51 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:51:56 * kilobyte likes common the best. Of course, way after "dragon". 10:52:30 common dragon sounds too harmless to me 10:52:46 here's a revolutionary idea... rename to "common dragon" and actually make it the most common (once you get into depth) :P 10:53:10 like "common cold", frequent, unpleasant, but never deadly 10:53:10 -!- petete has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:53:29 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 10:53:37 aren't they common already? 10:53:47 The common dragon breathes fire at you. 10:53:49 but (fire/common/whatever) dragon armour is probably the most desirable, it doesn't really need to be more common does it? :P 10:53:52 I always assumed they were same frequency as ice dragons 10:54:03 I haven't checked though 10:54:09 03kilobyte * r4106f820f0ef 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/trove.des: Make Troves ask for steam dragon armour rather than crystal plates (elliptic). 10:54:51 mottled has rarity 40, common 30, most of the rest 20 or lower 10:55:01 The fire dragon breathes fire at you. <- that'd be pretty bad. At least ice dragons breathe frost, not ice. 10:55:20 or, what about: monster=dragon, item=fire dragon armour 10:55:21 but I don't think 'common' would look fitting in those messages 10:55:24 oh, they are already the most common of the dangerous dragons? no need to change anything then 10:55:41 kilobyte: changing item to fire dragon armour and leaving the monster untouched sounds okay to me, yeah 10:56:23 zaba: I think that's why people suggested stuff like ember or cinder instead of fire 10:56:56 just changing the armour name is fine by me too 10:57:07 hm, although what about the hide? fire dragon hide? 10:57:57 I guess, yeah 11:01:02 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:04:52 You have my support (also for the imp etc. changeS). 11:05:14 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 11:05:44 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 11:06:58 -!- Pacra has quit [Client Quit] 11:07:54 SamB: i didn't mention it! people in here must be wearing amulets of ESP! 11:14:58 kilobyte: CPM trove price is contrary to the general goals of trove prices 11:14:59 which are to not be *purely* a matter of luck finding the item 11:15:09 Manual of x is possibly even worse 11:15:18 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:15:20 RichardHawk: that will only be a price if it is in a shop 11:15:35 elliptic: ah. 11:16:06 any shop item costing at least 1000 is eligible to be a price 11:18:24 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:18:41 RichardHawk: do you have an idea which commit triggered the bug you're getting? 11:22:15 has anyone else looked at the hive portal vault patch? would it be worth trying it with maybe just the one vault that was specially designed for it? 11:22:31 as opposed to the old hive:2 vaults which i don't think work very well for that purpose 11:23:11 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 11:25:05 MarvinPA: I had no time, sorry. 11:25:18 MarvinPA: and yes, there is no point is using the old maps. 11:25:40 If you can turn Greatzebu's stuff into a regular portal vault, that'd be cool. 11:26:11 There are some other vaults uploads sitting on my backlog. I'll be getting to them, but no promises on when. Before release, tho :) 11:27:10 hm, well i think the patch is pretty much fully functional (and currently includes the old hive:2s but those could be removed easily), probably good for someone a bit more experienced on the ins and outs of portal vaults than me to take a look at it though 11:31:41 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110701115916]] 11:33:26 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:33:29 -!- ainsophy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:33:30 dpeg: It's one of the skill display commits on 2011-10-04 11:33:54 crawl_tiles-0.10-a0-1097-g2445df1.zip (2011-10-03) works, dubsequent version don't 11:34:02 *subsequent versions 11:36:24 RichardHawk: can you link the bug report here, please? 11:36:49 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4755 11:37:10 thanks 11:38:01 RichardHawk: can you add all the information there? 11:38:17 whose commit is that? galehar? 11:39:10 RichardHawk: after you add information, I'll assign and increase priority 11:39:55 RichardHawk: can't reproduce it... it doesn't show the menu, but it didn't crash 11:40:49 I thought it was actually a hang ? 11:40:55 freeze, yeah 11:41:04 ok, it didn't freeze either ;) 11:41:12 I'm not entirely sure which one of these commits is the culprit 11:42:51 95c56f7 | Adam Borowski | 2011-10-04 17:55:35 +0200 11:42:51 Show focused and mastered skills differently in tiles. 11:42:51 f87fc92 | Raphael Langella | 2011-10-04 00:37:08 +0200 11:42:51 Use a decimal when determining best skill. 11:42:51 59789a6 | Raphael Langella | 2011-10-04 00:37:08 +0200 11:42:52 Use one decimal precision for comparing skills (cross/anti training). 11:42:52 5d45d90 | Raphael Langella | 2011-10-04 00:37:08 +0200 11:42:53 Always display known skills. 11:45:33 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 11:52:07 03MarvinPA * r8e0af155f73b 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/crypt.des: Add a couple of escape hatches to quadcrypt_mu to prevent players getting stuck 11:52:08 03MarvinPA * r18dee5e1715d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_features.des: Add no_rtele_into to lots of sealed item vaults to prevent players getting trapped in them 11:52:08 03MarvinPA * r43440dfe3f50 10/crawl-ref/source/ (22 files in 8 dirs): Rename imps to crimson imps 11:56:18 RichardHawk: does it freeze locally or in Webtiles? 11:58:08 dpeg: In local 12:02:25 RichardHawk: do you happen to know what size your crawl window is? 12:02:52 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:09:44 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 12:12:07 03MarvinPA * rff1c35966ccb 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Fix unwielding taking more time than it should 12:14:03 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 12:14:04 edlothiol: Whatever it autosizes to on a 1600x900 monitor 12:14:10 Looks to be 1520x840 12:20:13 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 12:25:11 kilobyte: oh, nice of you to actually add the map selection menu for ZotDef 12:25:20 even if that was the easy part ;-) 12:26:20 and I see someone had somehow broken the loot generation *and* free mapping 12:35:28 i know it is annoying, but i wonder if anyone has an idea how i could further analyze issue 0003899? 12:35:38 (at least, the latter was broken in 0.10-a0-1329-g6356235) 12:36:34 blabber: which one was that ? 12:36:58 my web browser is mostly swapped out, it seems 12:37:05 stonesoup crashing when a tutorial map is finished. 12:37:11 oh, that 12:37:18 you can do it reliably? 12:37:23 yes 12:37:33 on tiles and tty 12:37:56 and you've built with debug symbols? 12:38:01 the game_ended_condition is thrown but it is not caught by the corresponding handler 12:38:22 oh, you actually found the problem? 12:38:24 yes. i have attache a gdb backtrace to the issue 12:38:48 sweet 12:38:51 not really. i see the handler is not catching the event. 12:39:00 but i don't hav an idea why 12:39:27 I tried to reproduce it, too, but the Debian package that had the problem wouldn't build for me 12:39:38 er, I mean, wouldn't fail when I built it 12:39:52 and the original build didn't have any symbols, so 12:40:13 i am on freebsd. i thought the problem might be with the outdated gcc. 12:40:24 so i rebuilt using gcc47 12:40:28 same issue 12:40:50 anyway, I'm delighted to hear that you can reproduce the problem reliably ;-) 12:41:54 now, I guess I'd like to see a core right as/after the exception is thrown? 12:42:11 -!- ncampion has joined ##crawl-dev 12:42:42 core is dumped. that's were i got the gdb backtrace from. 12:42:45 (and an executable, and the commit hash for the revision you built from) 12:42:54 ok 12:43:15 i guess i have to rebuild. 12:43:16 I'd like to look at it in GDB myself ;-) 12:43:19 sure. 12:43:26 wait, why do you need to rebuild? 12:43:32 just tell me what ?V says 12:44:03 i have to rebuild because i don't have debug symbols at the moment. 12:44:07 03dolorous * rb9aaf6b63f8e 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Fix capitalization of cacodemon. 12:44:09 ah, I see 12:44:17 03dolorous * r03212e879023 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Put crimson imps in alphabetical order again. 12:44:33 I, for one, just always build with debugging symbols (though not debugging spew) 12:45:11 but them I'm using a 450 MHz PII... 12:45:14 i am maintaining the freebsd port so i try to use the version in ports normally 12:45:18 ah 12:45:41 but i will rebuild and give you the core and executable 12:45:49 I guess ports isn't exactly amenable to split-symbol-packages 12:45:59 i am building from the release tarfile btw 12:46:16 no not exactly. 12:46:58 oh, that's fine 12:47:38 Hopefully the corresponding git tag is accurate ;-) 12:51:40 it should be 12:52:22 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:56:13 hmmm. the build is running but i have to eat now. i will get back to you soon. 12:58:07 03edlothiol * r4f57fd2c0a3c 10/crawl-ref/source/webserver/ (20 files in 5 dirs): Webtiles: Use a proper JS module loader (part I). 12:58:17 03edlothiol * r6dc2f7b687af 10/crawl-ref/source/ (11 files): Fix the skill menu for an experience card not showing up in Tiles. 13:00:07 03dolorous * r13d39643e8db 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Fix missing instance of imp -> crimson imp in monster speech. 13:00:07 03dolorous * r9b4c3e0bed72 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Remove unneeded blank lines. 13:00:44 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 13:01:28 blabber: did you say anything since I last spoke? 13:01:36 'cause I've missed it 13:01:46 19:52 -!- SamB [~Sam@207.172.114.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:01:46 19:56 < blabber> hmmm. the build is running but i have to eat now. i will get back to you soon. 13:02:10 RichardHawk: could you try reproducing the hang again with a version later than 0.10-a0-1360 (as soon as it's available if you can't build yourself)? 13:02:17 xchat is using too much memory and/or Windows is bad at swapping 13:02:41 SamB: there's a link to the logs in the topic, too 13:05:22 edlothiol: oh, so there is! 13:05:43 actually, I think the real culprit might be GNU ld 13:06:08 * SamB tries to install gold 13:07:13 SamB: gold = <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 13:07:28 any idea how I set it up in mingw? 13:07:31 like ¼ linking time 13:07:40 apt-get install binutils-gold 13:07:49 "in mingw" 13:07:56 I've got it on Debian already ;-) 13:07:57 ah, msys... no idea, sorry :( 13:08:11 I'll just see about interrogating mingw-get 13:08:16 and-or grepping the XML files 13:08:29 the package description of binutils-gold says something about it not being able to link kernels.. is that still true? 13:08:55 Zaba: probably? 13:09:02 at least, Linux kernels 13:09:06 others might not be as demanding 13:09:28 I'm sure it's on the TODO list 13:14:09 03dolorous * rd5f1e4c2b8fa 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Give iron imps the crimson imp genus, to match the other imps. 13:14:17 03dolorous * rd18c94d2ea4c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-data.h spl-summoning.cc): Give non-crimson imp types their own genuses. 13:14:17 03dolorous * r946e164b1872 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-summoning.cc: Add minor cosmetic fix. 13:15:49 great to have dolorous around 13:19:25 * SamB tries "mingw-get install binutils" on the theory that a newer version might include gold 13:19:41 wtf "gold"?! 13:20:07 03dolorous * rd4ca0d3efafe 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Give non-Fiend Fiend types their own genuses. 13:20:18 I want to download goal. 13:20:18 GNU's Other LD, maybe 13:20:28 "You wouldn't download a bar of gold." 13:20:45 it's the subscribers-only version of binutils 13:20:53 right ... 13:20:57 you must be a binutils-gold member to link this binary 13:20:59 no, it's just a new linker 13:21:16 because ld is, like, O(n^2) or something 13:21:52 tired of slow link times? upgrade to binutils-gold! 13:22:40 i have a core and a unstripped exutable with symbols. 13:23:16 SamB: how do i pass you the stuff? attach it to the issue? 13:23:25 blabber: hopefully! 13:23:32 will it fit? 13:24:29 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:24:33 its 183M uncompressed 13:24:50 ouch 13:25:04 what is it xz'd ? 13:25:14 RichardHawk: could you try reproducing the hang again with a version later than 0.10-a0-1360 (as soon as it's available if you can't build yourself)? 13:25:18 sure thing 13:25:25 i will tar xz it an we'll see. 13:25:42 * tar cz 13:25:49 xz is decompress! 13:27:03 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:27:42 SamB: isn't it "google ld"? 13:28:12 kilobyte: oh, that might be what it's meant to be 13:28:21 but I don't think it officially means anything? 13:28:31 it's a gnu package, though 13:28:48 i.e. that might be a secret message ;-P 13:28:55 Zannick: i meant the xz(1) compression tool 13:29:09 never heard of it 13:29:23 Zannick: it uses 7-zip's compression scheme 13:29:32 interesting 13:29:58 but yeah, 'tar xz' is decompress a .tgz or .tar.gz 13:30:18 oh, true 13:30:19 tar -cJf 13:30:49 honestly I've given up on remembering the decompression options 13:31:11 thankfully, mostly you can just use tar -xf now 13:31:35 yeah, i usually put z just out of habit 13:31:45 I usually do too 13:31:47 the tar.xz is 23M. what is the limit on mantis? 13:32:03 but then when it complains at me, I take out the z 13:32:05 probably smaller 13:32:11 5,000k 13:32:11 5M, I think 13:32:15 hm 13:32:17 there's an "a" option to tar which makes it look at the suffix 13:32:18 oh, not quite 5M 13:32:31 kilobyte: I think without that it tries magic 13:32:51 man: -a, --auto-compress use archive suffix to determine the compression program 13:32:53 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 13:32:59 ah 13:33:05 blabber - can you upload it elsewhere? 13:33:06 for creation 13:33:06 SamB: would it be ok if i "dccs send" it to you? 13:33:07 useful! 13:33:16 or could I wget it? 13:33:19 Napkin: i have no webspace. 13:33:38 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:33:38 SamB: I guess they decided to have it consistent between input and output, at the cost of input being a bit less intelligent 13:33:40 blabber: hold on, let me irssi from my Debian box 13:33:55 SamB: ok 13:34:13 03dolorous * r4cdb34961ebf 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Add more capitalization fixes: lorocyproca, Fiend, Ice Fiend. 13:35:02 -!- SamB_irssi has joined ##crawl-dev 13:36:24 SamB_irssi: here you go 13:37:18 wait, doesn't irssi support DCC? 13:37:34 it supports it 13:37:43 i just did a /dcc send from it 13:37:56 you need to /dcc get 13:38:03 you have to do "/dcc get blabber" 13:38:33 you can't just send files, the recipient has to want them :P 13:38:44 Zannick: yes 13:38:55 and it is a really good idea 13:38:58 send it to me, blabber 13:39:23 Napkin: done 13:39:26 hmm 13:39:47 I seem to be trying to get it, but it's stalled ? 13:39:51 It is possible to die to an abyss shift during passwall delay (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4770) by 78291 13:39:54 you're in a lan, blabber :) 13:40:21 yes, but no firewall 13:40:30 blabber: get IPv6 13:40:57 but nat, that's enough to confuse irc dcc 13:41:16 SamB_irssi: that is not an option right now... 13:41:26 Napkin: ok. 13:41:33 gimme a sec 13:41:36 blabber: hurricane electric is too much work ? 13:41:58 -!- SamB_irssi [naesten@207.172.114.83] 13:42:17 SamB_irssi: a ipv6 tunnel is still a problem behind dynamic nat isn't it? 13:42:29 depends 13:42:39 blabber: works just great. At home I use SixxS. 13:43:15 I used to use sixxs, but for some reason my tunnel endpoint wasn't working so I think I stopped 13:43:52 the box I run irssi on is placed at an ISP my brother works in, and has native IPv6, but otherwise, it's damn hard to get it in Poland :( 13:44:12 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:45:16 blabber: ftp://crawl-upload@crash.develz.org 13:45:26 SamB: if everything else fails, aiccu now has an "AYIYA" mode which tries a number of transports to work around broken routers 13:45:41 kilobyte: no, not that endpoint 13:45:44 the OTHER endpoint 13:45:59 ah, a temporary breakage? 13:46:01 i.e. the problem was with the sixxs tunnel provider box I had been using 13:46:05 *supposedly* 13:46:08 Napkin: what is the password? 13:46:11 it might have resolved 13:46:17 blabber: I sent it via notice 13:46:28 check your status window, maybe? 13:46:39 Napkin: got it 13:47:04 * kilobyte shakes fist at NAT and everything it stands for. 13:47:06 4 minutes ETA 13:47:48 NAT stands for "stopgap until we get IPv6 deployed properly" 13:47:49 kilobyte: i use hurricane electric for ipv6 over ipv4 13:48:03 i am at our local hackerspace. network is slow and under heavy load 13:48:14 it's nice you can just use SIT tunneling 13:48:30 actually, NAT is not so bad 13:48:51 Napkin: at least it solves a problem rather good 13:49:09 I wonder how hard it is to get ipv6 in Sweden... 13:49:10 Napkin: it works to get a tunnel broker, and to access HTTP servers 13:49:14 once you have ipv6, you have to fiddle with stupid firewalls 13:49:39 I suppose that's true 13:50:47 but the only *nix machine I actually use has been acting as the router all along, so it's not really any more exposed than before ... 13:50:51 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 13:51:27 ipv6 means working point-to-point connectivity 13:51:39 yeah, which is what the internet is all about 13:51:47 and that's something telco companies really hate 13:52:32 I am glad to recieve internet service from one of two competing cable companies 13:52:59 lucky, too 13:53:03 -!- phyphor has joined ##crawl-dev 13:53:16 most places don't have two cable companies 13:54:01 *envy* 13:54:04 US, SamB? 13:54:06 Napkin: upload is done. thanks. 13:54:16 Most places in the *US*, as I understand it, don't 13:54:21 but yes 13:54:30 I live just outside of Philadelphia 13:54:30 ic 13:54:58 so it's not nearly as good service as it *could* be 13:55:01 my cousin from st.louis is cursing too 13:55:18 but at least we could plausibly switch to the other company, as far as they know 13:55:58 no, thank you, blabber :) 13:55:59 http://crawl.develz.org/other/stonesoup-0.9.1-core.tar.xz 13:56:18 -!- SamB_irssi has left ##crawl-dev 13:57:33 how do I grab the git tags from origin? 13:58:20 normally it's done automatically 13:58:52 did someone forget to tag 0.9.1, or what ? 13:59:24 SamB: it is tagged 13:59:45 is the tagged commit reachable from a branch ? 14:00:19 if you don't track stone_soup-0.9, it won't take the tag unless you fetch -t 14:02:00 oh, wait 14:02:03 I have the tag 14:02:15 just gitk didn't list it, probably because I'm just looking at master 14:04:08 03kilobyte * r4d5c11a30496 10/crawl-ref/source/ (16 files in 5 dirs): Rename dragon armour to "fire dragon armour". Just the item, not monster. 14:04:17 03kilobyte * rb928ad4e48b1 10/crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: Abort passwall when you get banished. 14:04:34 kilobyte: you renamed the hide, too? 14:04:50 SamB: yeah, of course 14:04:55 good, good 14:05:02 some of us are forgetful 14:07:23 kilobyte: good commit message! 14:09:12 dpeg: it remains a contentious issue 14:09:40 dpeg: did you have a chance to come up with a solution to the sickness/nausea thingy? 14:11:47 kilobyte: I would use it as is. We can add a prompt, if we feel like it. 14:13:52 also, would it be ok to exempt plants and non-livings from the "friend died" conduct? It'd make three gods playable in ZotDef, it makes sense thematically (items not beings), and the only monster of these kinds you get as an ally is already exempted. 14:14:21 kilobyte: what plants? 14:14:28 and which gods? 14:14:48 (and I thought crawl wasn't going to do conducts 'cause it was a nethack feature?) 14:15:03 SamB: conduct means something else in crawl 14:15:18 I was just nitpicking on that last one ;-P 14:15:18 at least I think it does 14:15:31 also, I think conducts are fun in smash brothers 14:17:37 conducts are basically how your god reacts to things, like killing monsters, mutating yourself, and letting friends die 14:17:56 anyway, fedhas should probably continue to dislike it when your plants die? 14:18:19 kilobyte: yes. For mainline Crawl, Fedhas is addressed, right? 14:18:34 I actually meant for ZD 14:19:18 fedhas has his own conducts anyway i think 14:19:23 The consensus seems to be that Fedhas is wicked cool in ZD, and should be allowed, but somehow prevented from making deep water there 14:19:33 MarvinPA: nope 14:19:34 or is handled seperately 14:19:40 MarvinPA: at least in the version I'm looking at 14:20:05 oh right yeah 14:20:31 (I'm not sure the last part was part of the consensus, but I'm sure it would be if the consequences of deep water in ZD were known to all involved ;-) 14:21:09 deep water is already prevented in a couple of other places already, yeah 14:21:45 kilobyte: so go ahead 14:22:30 SamB: is there _anything_ that you can't already do, except at a cost that'd be upset by Fedhas? 14:22:51 you get shrooms, you get plants, you get oklobs 14:22:51 hmm? 14:23:24 someone did something to the "make altar" ability lately 14:23:38 I'm not sure what ... 14:24:39 prevented you from selecting gods that are supposed to be unavailable? 14:24:44 anyway, the only thing I know of would *truly* be problematic w/ Fedhas in Zot Defence is the creation of deep water... 14:24:46 (ie fedhas in zotdef) 14:24:55 MarvinPA: something of that nature 14:25:00 that's the most recent change i can remember, anyway 14:25:11 I'm not sure if Fedhas was actually involved? 14:25:31 you don't get wandering mushrooms as a zotdef ability, do you? 14:25:41 nor hyperactive ballistos 14:26:00 blabber: sadly, my GDB seems unable to understand FreeBSD core dumps :-( 14:26:08 * SamB will see about building another 14:26:50 so if rain doesn't create deep water it seems reasonable enough to allow fedhas, maybe 14:27:11 SamB: here is my gdb backtrace https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/file_download.php?file_id=2458&type=bug 14:27:35 MarvinPA: "wall of oklob's" seems to be the favorite, actually ;-) 14:27:38 if i can help out otherwise just hilight me. 14:28:08 blabber: thanks! 14:28:09 SamB: yes but i was pointing out things fedhas lets you do that you couldn't do otherwise with regular zotdef abilities 14:28:15 sure 14:28:19 I recognize that 14:28:30 SamB: Where do you even get fruit in zotdef at a level where it still matters 14:28:47 I don't know! 14:28:51 although there is that, yeah. you don't get acquirement until level 25 or something 14:29:12 we could add those apple trees from The Wizard of Oz... 14:31:52 also would standing inside your oklob plant that's on the orb be potentially problematic? i dunno 14:32:15 MarvinPA: you get spores as "grenades" 14:32:32 MarvinPA: yeah, that's another problem. 14:33:50 well, fedhas ballistos explode on the spot so they're not quite like spores 14:34:11 but yeah, it does seem like there could be a bunch of issues, doesn't fedhas also protect your plants from harm? 14:34:22 i remember them being absurdly tough at high invoc 14:35:20 yeah 14:35:25 and speeds up oklobs 14:35:28 MarvinPA: they're not absurdly tough, they're highly protected :) 14:36:01 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 14:36:20 Well all this makes sense, Fedhas basically allows you to make ZotDef setups in the maingame 14:36:23 for Ashenzari, I can add piety for every new wave (you're learning new opposition), but I wonder if there's a point 14:36:42 no scrolls, no access to most gear -> no curses 14:38:16 no need to make all gods ZD or sprint viable 14:39:04 dpeg: yeah, I just wonder if they could be made viable... if not, it might be better to disable them unless there is _some_ point for a challenge god 14:39:23 yes 14:39:35 disabling them seems right to me 14:39:53 for Ashenzari, scrying, enemy detection and trap detection are useless in ZotDef, +skills would require scrolls 14:40:08 03elliptic * rd265bd3ba3b7 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/trove.des: Trove price tweaks. 14:40:13 only reskilling is left, and he'd need a piety mechanism 14:40:43 (piety for waves is easy to add and quite thematic, but meh) 14:41:00 -!- ainsophy_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:27 Ely was unplayable, might be brokenly good now. Piety: tons of weapons to sac, hungerless pacification, no need to wait. Powers: healing stuff, curing rot. 14:42:50 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:43:21 TSO will grant 6573368738967 piety for seeing stuff -- killer gods give very little as oklobs/turrets do 99% the work, TSO doesn't require killing. 14:45:00 Zin has issues. 14:45:03 is that a real number 14:45:40 I don't think it's irrational. 14:48:05 6573368738967 * pi 14:48:19 kilobyte: atheist will always be a challenge god, as long as there are many gods without meaningful drawbacks 14:48:28 you don't need another challenge god that plays almost identically 14:49:27 kilobyte: we could up spawn frequency of cursed monster gear ... 14:49:33 well, in theory 14:51:17 rawrmage, Torokasi: yes, integers are both real and rational 14:51:26 kilobyte: <3 14:51:31 kilobyte: he meant is that a *true* number 14:51:46 I don't even think piety can go that high 14:52:10 Is it really necessary that the German explains exaggeration and hyperbole to you? 14:52:44 no 14:52:48 you can stay in ZotDef after 15 rules, but the game has a hard cap on 2*10â¹ aut. 14:53:06 zotdef, or crawl? 14:53:31 crawl in general 14:53:38 and why is that in decimal? 14:53:47 God made the integers; all else is the work of man. 14:54:00 bhaak: s/integers/natural numbers/ 14:54:07 what about that there pi 14:54:11 and that there e 14:54:30 and that there c 14:54:40 negatives are a quite recent invention 14:54:43 (okay, that one's actually just 1) 14:54:51 bhaak: evil intutionist! 14:55:02 and I spelled that wrongly :( 14:55:02 (at least in some theories) 14:55:17 bhaak: unless Polish translation of that quote is not exact, that is 14:55:20 e^i(pi) 14:55:34 bhaak: forgot who said that, but I think it was a German 14:55:48 * dpeg is used to getting all the blame. 14:55:53 \ 14:56:12 kilobyte: Hilbert, perhaps 14:56:43 no, Kronecker 14:57:05 But I just found a quote with integers, sorry kilobyte :) 14:57:17 "Die ganzen Zahlen hat der liebe Gott gemacht, alles andere ist Menschenwerk." 14:57:35 so it is really integers 14:57:53 Let's not even speculate what would have happened with an evil god. 14:58:26 sqrt(2) would be rational 14:58:39 the what now? 14:59:50 doesn't "whole number" stand for "natural"? 14:59:54 kilobyte: no 15:00:07 whole number = entire number = integer 15:01:02 WikiQuote: english page (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Leopold_Kronecker) says "integers", polish (https://pl.wikiquote.org/wiki/Leopold_Kronecker) says "naturals" 15:01:34 so I happened to remember it right but it was mistranslated (German version is authoritative for a German) 15:02:00 kilobyte: it'd be a feeble god if she could come up with the naturals but not the integers :) 15:02:50 * dpeg thanks Kali and Kukulcan for the zero. 15:03:11 it's only attributed, the german quote is sourced from an obituary of him 15:03:48 dpeg: it could be a modulo god 15:04:51 greensnark once got greatly upset for someone calling Kali "evil" 15:04:57 * dpeg is just calling is crony Leopold for an authoritive statement. 15:05:01 kilobyte: might've been me 15:05:16 kilobyte: they were probably talking about the package for tunneling IPX/SPX over the internet 15:05:30 or about my cat 15:05:40 SamB: :p 15:06:15 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 15:07:32 oh, do you suppose we should give each zotdef level its own color scheme? 15:08:08 I wondered about this too... 15:08:13 not much point, though 15:08:32 well, it might look more interesting ... 15:09:03 random color schemes! 15:09:09 pandef. 15:09:13 <3 15:09:17 color cycle ftw 15:09:23 no color cycling 15:09:25 I vote for keeping it all the same, but that's a weak opinion 15:09:29 Zannick:

I mean, sure, random 15:09:43 blabber: as in, every wave in a different colour? 15:09:56 but only as in "chooses random scheme at level generation" 15:10:21 well, you *could* recolor the dungeon between waves 15:10:25 but *you* need to add the hooks for that 15:10:40 kilobyte: to be honest i was only kidding. as i never survived the first wave i have no idea how long a wave lasts. 15:10:42 (unless they are there already?) 15:10:44 :) 15:10:52 a wave is 200 aut, I believe 15:11:02 or maybe 2000 15:11:02 that's probably too unsettling 15:11:05 er. 2000 15:11:21 or maybe it's in player turns? 15:11:27 in which case it's 200 15:12:05 but, strangely, the first one starts at turn 200! 15:12:12 not turn 1 or turn 201 15:12:16 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: food] 15:19:51 SamB: more clear to the player this way, I'd say 15:20:21 waves are often announced, it's good to do it at round numbers 15:20:21 blabber: the GDB devs are amazed at how old the GDB on FreeBSD 8.2 is ;-) 15:20:39 kilobyte: well, it's just that the game starts on turn 1 for some reason 15:20:55 SamB: yeah it is the lates gplv2 version of gdb, gcc et al 15:21:03 Turn: 0.0 (0.0) 15:21:36 kilobyte: oh? 15:21:44 huh. 15:21:45 with show_game_turns = false: Turn: 0 15:21:56 Nevermind, then! 15:22:16 blabber: they still wonder why not 6.8! 15:22:31 I can't seem to see the draconian wave in ZotDef code 15:22:42 I don't think it is 15:23:03 a lot of the stuff seems to come from the main game 15:23:04 my last game, they came at XL16, and smote everything without a loss 15:23:05 -!- Brannock has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:06 -!- Sequell has quit [*.net *.split] 15:23:06 -!- RichardHawk has quit [*.net *.split] 15:24:05 I had 40k Zot Points stashed, used them all popping as much defenses as they tore them down, and Tiamat who was on the first line didn't get below "lightly wounded" 15:24:29 SamB: don't know. http://wiki.freebsd.org/ContribSoftware suggests that the freebsd devs think 6.6 ist last GPLv2. 15:24:30 maybe it decided it was time for zot :/ 15:24:40 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 15:24:40 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 15:24:40 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 15:24:53 anyway clang/llvm is on it's way ^^ 15:25:43 blabber: what debugger do *they* use? 15:25:52 the fire wave took some repair, they tore through one of the sides, moving fight to Zot but it could be managed. Draconians on the other hand went without a scratch. 15:26:36 beh, I had hopes for clang but it stays so much below gcc's level... 15:28:50 SamB: i don't know. but i hope they have one. somewhere on sf.net is a bsd licensed debugger to be find. maybe that get's imported. who knows. 15:32:32 anyway, i have to go now... don't hesitate to comment to the issue or hilight me when i am online again if i can be of any help. 15:32:36 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:50:35 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:53:42 What does BSD have against GPLv3? The patent stuff? 15:54:09 03elliptic * r7c1860ec2087 10/crawl-ref/source/makeitem.cc: Make slaying rings a bit less likely to be tiny. 15:54:10 03elliptic * r278b17897d43 10/crawl-ref/source/shopping.cc: Decrease the price of slaying rings slightly. 15:54:10 03elliptic * reb71eb6f778c 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Make slaying work like extra weapon enchantment. 15:54:29 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:55:23 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 16:02:50 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:05:08 <|amethyst> SamB: apparently many of their commercial users have a "no GPLv3" policy 16:05:16 <|amethyst> SamB: probably because of the patent issues 16:09:19 are there any users left, really? I mean, any other than those with an ancient installation they have no resources to migrate right now. 16:09:49 all BSD zealots I know have moved to Debian/kfreebsd: BSD kernel with pf they're used to, ZFS and so on, but a sane userland 16:10:28 (ok, "sane" is biased, but "with hardly any improvements in so many years" less so) 16:21:07 should fire vortices be vulnerable to acid? 16:21:14 they are made of fire, right? 16:23:24 @??fire vortex 16:23:24 fire vortex (05v) | Speed: 15 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 3004(fire:3-5) | Flags: 11non-living, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 04fire+++, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 12cold | XP: 21. 16:23:28 @??fire elemental 16:23:29 fire elemental (05E) | Speed: 13 | HD: 6 | Health: 21-45 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 504(fire:6-11) | Flags: 11non-living, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 12cold | XP: 196. 16:23:39 there isn't much with rA afaik 16:24:06 @??air elemental 16:24:06 air elemental (15E) | Speed: 25 | HD: 6 | Health: 21-45 | AC/EV: 2/18 | Damage: 15 | Flags: 11non-living, see invisible, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 11elec+++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 12wind | XP: 222. 16:24:14 etc 16:24:39 possibly all of these should have it, but I got tired of trying to figure out monster resists a couple versions ago :P 16:26:35 Is there a particular reason that random_choose_weighted stops when it gets a weight of 0, rather than a negative weight? 16:27:04 kilobyte: maybe embedded devices? 16:27:06 dtsund: a more natural terminator to me 16:27:13 Seems to me that if that were changed, some existing kludges could be removed 16:27:37 kilobyte: anyway, all this GDB stuff reminds me that I'm not seeing demangling in my crash dumps ... 16:27:41 Like the need to replace all ?immolation with something else before a certain depth; that could just be given zero weight 16:27:51 kilobyte: ... even though there's evidently code for it 16:28:16 SamB: on msys, or on linux? 16:28:23 kilobyte: linux 16:29:01 ./crawl(_Z25getch_with_command_macrosv+0x33) [0x9c55c0]: getch_with_command_macros() 16:29:18 E | fire elemental | Spd: 12 | Large | Not genocidable | Lvl: 8 | AC: 2 | MR: 30 | Difficulty: 10 | Align: 0 | No corpse | Atk: claw fiery 3d6, passive fiery 0d4 | Flags: poison resistance, fire resistance, petrification resistance, nolimbs, mindless, fly, nohead, noeyes, notake, nohands, unsolid, neuter, strong, infravisible 16:29:18 I get both... 16:29:28 elliptic: you could just consult a devteam who does think of everything 16:29:36 acid resistance exists in NetHack, but fire elementals don't get it 16:30:18 nor electricity resistance (why do they get that in Crawl, incidentally?) 16:30:44 ais523: how do you fight fire with electricity? 16:30:57 kilobyte: why does electricity damage anything else? 16:31:00 ais523: it's a way to _start_ fires in RL 16:31:02 if a fire elemental can be damaged by anything at all 16:31:16 kilobyte: oh, maybe I get that too... 16:31:30 * kilobyte can think of it being damageable by water pretty well. Or smothered physically. 16:31:36 I just remember seeing all of those non-demangled symbols 16:31:42 well, it can be damaged by swords 16:32:00 the main damage humans take from electricity is due to the disruption of their nervous system 16:32:04 ah, yeah 16:32:08 not even just depriving it of air, even pushing to a side. It's a cloud of gas... 16:32:13 * SamB is silly 16:32:25 typically, if electrocution is fatal, it's because it stops the heart 16:32:26 (flame, not "fire elemental", that is. If you add magic, all RL references go to hell) 16:32:40 well, yes 16:32:53 I imagine fire elementals as being vaguely like humans, except made of flames 16:33:23 ais523: you can damage a lot of non-living things with electricity. Most of the time burning is involved in some way, though. 16:33:44 you need /way/ more than you need to stop the heart of a human 16:34:10 well... arguing about magic is pretty much a waste of time. 16:34:22 typically, burning from electricity happens on physically small objects 16:34:26 like fuses and narrow wires 16:34:43 you can go either way... the only valid argument is consistency: if you say magic does X in one case, it should do something similar in similar cases 16:35:01 have you seen effects of lightning? 16:35:21 I mean, not just some small voltage but the stuff that comes from the sky 16:35:46 do electromagnetic fields affect fire? 16:36:01 kilobyte: yes, because it has a voltage of hundreds of thousands of volts and a relatively small internal resistance 16:36:08 kilobyte: i think we've all seen back to the future 16:36:12 rawrmage: yes, flames tend to be electrically charged 16:36:24 so they can be affected by strong charge or magnetism 16:36:36 could then if a lightning bolt hit exactly a fire elemental disrupt its organization? 16:36:36 bhaak: no, I haven't seen it, I've only read the book and I wish I'd have that time back. It's awful. 16:36:53 how do they work 16:37:10 a wizard did it :p 16:37:28 kilobyte: who reads a novelization of a movie? the movie is also seen much faster than a book is read. 16:37:55 elliptic: well, "the walls burn your fire vortex" is a bit annoying 16:38:10 <|amethyst> rawrmage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pemLqrIBDb0 16:38:12 this burns like acid! oh wait, it's actually burning like fire 16:39:07 of course silencing any "the walls burn your" messages is a good idea in general, but in the case of vortices even non-summoners get pissed off by them 16:39:10 alefury: now you have an actual gameplay argument 16:39:10 |amethyst: neat! 16:39:32 Burning walls should be a Gehennom effect 16:40:06 ouch. 16:40:10 * kilobyte has walls and air straight from Cocytus outside the house. 16:40:23 so basically, you get burned any time you're in gehennom? 16:40:42 oh, heh 16:40:54 i'm thinking of nethack gehennom with the narrow maze design 16:40:56 rawrmage: need rFire to enter! You instadie when you remove a ring of rF! :p 16:41:03 dtsund: you mean Gehenna 16:41:06 you really confused rawrmage there 16:41:10 like in NetHack 3.1 (?) 16:41:19 kilobyte: some old version, anyway 16:41:21 <|amethyst> I was just about to mention that 16:41:22 that was a bad idea 16:41:40 although at least in NetHack, you can get rF intrinsically 16:41:47 3.1.0 was when instadeath was first removed from not having rF 16:41:49 Crawl would suck if you needed a particular mutation to be capable of winning 16:42:13 rawrmage: hah, got it close :p 16:42:25 yeah 16:42:30 kilobyte: identical, 3.1.0 = 3.1 16:42:48 oh right, so any version /before/ 3.1 would work 16:43:42 by the way, items out of los turn invisible sometimes upon leaving the level 16:43:45 maybe always, i dont know 16:43:46 in tiles 16:43:52 has been like that for a while actually 16:44:19 putting it on mantis 16:45:18 not sure if it was like that in 0.9, it might be 16:46:13 03elliptic * r18815d1a864d 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Cap melee noise at shouting volume. 16:46:38 How does melee noise even work 16:46:46 oh, I think that's caused by tags.cc:3733 16:47:01 had noticed that before, but then forgotten about it 16:47:54 it would probably be best to just clear mcache references from tile_bk_fg, wouldn't it? 16:49:13 edlothiol: yeah, but it's not that easy 16:50:02 the problem is, the code to produce mcache hardly works at all if the monster isn't in view at the moment 16:50:12 should i attach a save where it always happens? 16:50:28 or do you already know the problem anyway? 16:50:34 it is currently saved, causing problems on restore 16:51:15 I did a bit of work to properly produce it from mon-info, but didn't finish a majority of cases :( 16:51:20 so, no save necessary? 16:51:40 alefury: I don't think so 16:51:41 alefury: not sure if that's the same problem 16:51:48 hmkay, ill attach it 16:51:57 just tried with a new char and it didnt happen on D:1 16:52:54 alefury: what exactly do you mean by "upon leaving the level"? when you later return? 16:53:07 umm, i dont know, i assume so 16:53:12 i can try looking at it with X 16:53:24 ah ok, yeah 16:53:28 its only cosmetic anyway, just the tiles are missing 16:53:35 autopickup borders are still there 16:54:14 yep, also happens with X] 16:55:54 items out of LOS sometimes turn invisible upon leaving and reentering a level (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4771) by Galefury 16:56:23 oh, they reappear btw 16:56:28 when you have them in LOS 16:56:35 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:59:37 yep, that's tile_bk_fg being deleted because the mcache is empty 17:03:22 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 17:04:00 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:04:23 -!- jle_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:04:56 <|amethyst> !nick mfbb mossforestblossombat 17:04:56 Mapping mfbb => mossforestblossombat 17:04:57 Mapping mfbb => mossforestblossombat 17:04:58 <|amethyst> bah 17:05:57 Graphic for Lair entry staircase is wall of green crystal (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4772) by Torokasi 17:14:00 I've got some weirdness on the skill select screen after using a !XP on CAO. 17:14:33 I selected a skill to see how it'd change and it dumped I guess three extra characters elsewhere. 17:16:45 If there's any questions on that error I can try to explain more? It's kinda weird but. 17:20:54 Fyren: where were the extra characters? 17:21:40 Fyren: there was an exp card fix recently. That was a crash though. I also noticed some weirdness with !exp, but it might be fixed now. 17:21:59 or might be fixed once that commit reaches the servers 17:22:16 This was with today's build on CAO. 17:22:22 http://pastebin.com/qhwNxVZi 17:22:26 The invo/evo lines. 17:22:46 "recently" in this case means today 17:22:51 It's not crashing or blank. 17:23:36 oh. that was in console. right. the other thing was in tiles. 17:23:45 so the !exp weirdness might be unrelated 17:24:02 there was also a small weirdness in console which was fixed by that commit, but this doesn't look like that 17:26:04 !XP skill screen weirdness (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4773) by Fyren 17:26:38 Fyren: do you have a screenshot(paste) from the same situation, but out of the menu? 17:27:41 hm, !xp produces no selection screen at all for me in tiles, but thats before the exp card fix 17:28:08 03galehar * rd8668e824b62 10/crawl-ref/source/itemprop.cc: Evokable armour need to be worn to allow training, not just carried. 17:28:08 03galehar * ref77745c5ba3 10/crawl-ref/source/ (itemprop.cc player-equip.cc): Items need to be known uncursed or equipped to allow training. 17:28:08 03galehar * r188d52081cea 10/crawl-ref/source/ (itemname.cc itemprop.cc itemprop.h player-equip.cc): Allow boots of levitation and cloak of darkness to train evocations (#4743). 17:28:26 alefury: yes, that's fixed 17:28:48 hm. no crash though. guess that was only for the card. 17:29:19 I couldn't reproduce the freeze for the card either 17:30:15 edlothiol: I'm not sure what you're asking a copy and paste of, my normal skill screen? 17:32:29 no, just the normal game screen (the other weirdness was the name and title being drawn under the skill menu, so I want to see if this comes from the status area, too) 17:32:59 edlothiol: I guess it's a star from my piety. 17:33:02 If that's the case. 17:33:18 yeah, but the location doesn't fit for that 17:33:50 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 17:33:54 It does, I have messages on top. 17:34:05 aah 17:34:08 It lines up with the e in Fyren, f in merfolk, and * in my piety. 17:34:09 ok, then this is fixed 17:35:14 ...and galehar has already marked it as such 17:36:02 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 17:36:20 Ah, excellent. 17:36:40 When do the windows builds update? 17:36:43 hi 17:36:44 galehar: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 17:36:48 !messages 17:36:48 (1/2) elliptic said (6d 16h 17s ago): It looks like the skill_cost_level computation doesn't take crosstraining/antitraining into account... this can make increasing skills slightly noncommutative. How hard would it be to fix this (by adjusting the skill point total used to compute it)? 17:37:06 !messages 17:37:06 (1/1) kilobyte said (3d 14h 46m 19s ago): is there any use for practise() and all related complexity left? 17:38:16 kilobyte: practise is still used for auto-mode. I've barely touched it, it could probably use a lot of simplification and some improvements. 17:38:24 !seen kilobyte 17:38:24 I last saw kilobyte at Tue Oct 18 21:51:41 2011 UTC (46m 43s ago) saying alefury: not sure if thats the same problem on ##crawl-dev. 17:38:50 !seen elliptic 17:38:51 I last saw elliptic at Tue Oct 18 21:53:06 2011 UTC (45m 44s ago) saying the curare are great for emergencies but poisoned needles alone will deal with most things on ##crawl. 17:40:11 elliptic: removing the skill point bonus from crosstraining in the cost_level calculation is trivial. I already keep track of it for reskilling. 17:40:49 galehar: yeah, that's what I was hoping... would probably be a good thing to do 17:40:59 however, it's more tricky for anti-training. You have a normal amount of skill points, it just cost you twice as more xp. 17:41:27 I'm not sure there's anything that needs to be done for anti 17:42:04 can that be kept track of in the same variable that holds the crosstraining data, as negative amounts of crosstraining? 17:42:08 03dolorous * r3fee93036d7b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (player-equip.cc skills.cc): Add whitespace fixes. 17:42:24 it might not be worth the trouble 17:43:04 really what might be nice is if skill_cost_level looked directly at how much xp you have spent on skill training over the course of the game 17:43:49 rather than add up skill points, which should be equivalent in theory but details like this are annoying 17:43:51 good point 17:44:17 I'll think about it 17:44:49 shouldn't be too hard to do some simple simulations to keep the same progression. 17:45:30 don't have much time (new job), so no idea when that will be 17:45:46 can do the quick crosstraining fix in the meantime 17:46:10 well, no hurry about this :) 17:47:47 how would adding up exp work with manuals? 17:47:59 they only add skill points without spending exp 17:48:13 free training? 17:49:31 alefury: I think it is fine if manuals and such don't affect skill_cost_level, yes 17:50:12 by the time you get manuals skill_cost_level is usually maxed anyway I think 17:50:40 ice caves can have them. at least one ice cave anyway. 17:50:59 it isn't like having slightly lower skill_cost_level is going to break anything... just a slight manual buff 17:51:13 they already give free skill points :) 17:51:15 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 17:51:28 i agree, just thought it should be discussed 17:51:51 galehar: the tavern collectively requests that you use your limited free time to implement permabuffs :) 17:52:20 Wensley, yeah there's that too :) 17:52:24 having those for 0.10 would be so awesome 17:52:35 however, implementing permabuff shouldn't be too hard 17:52:58 I've put enough details on the wiki if someone wants to try 18:01:35 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:08:48 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Oops. My brain just hit a bad sector] 18:12:08 03kilobyte * rd8b9923fd9e9 10/crawl-ref/source/godconduct.cc: Exempt plans and non-livings from the "friend died" conduct. 18:12:22 03kilobyte * r497e55b9a3fe 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Disable Ashenzari in ZotDef. 18:29:10 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 18:49:52 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:05:23 so firestorm cloud of fire duration is much, much longer than icestorm freezing cloud duration 19:06:10 so? 19:06:32 firestorm is better 19:06:38 I don't know any explanation for this and fire storm could really use a nerf 19:07:01 so I am threatening to decrease the duration :) 19:07:05 why does it need a nerf? 19:07:11 firestorm also has smite targeting but ice storm doesn't 19:07:32 yeah, firestorm is better. also ice magic gives you a bunch of really good other stuff 19:07:54 alefury: because it is too strong? 19:07:59 while fire doesnt. once you have firestorm every single fire spell other than maybe bolt of fire is obsolete 19:08:10 this is usually why things need nerfs 19:08:37 does it cause degenerate play? could you define "too strong" please? 19:08:54 its probably the strongest offensive spell in the game, but i dont see how that is a problem. one spell has to be the strongest. 19:09:10 also in lots of situations others are stronger 19:10:55 I'm not proposing to nerf it so much that it would no longer be the strongest :P 19:11:18 mhh, the long clouds are mostly just annoying 19:11:29 yes 19:11:31 but i got some excellent use out of them on V:8 on my current DEFE 19:11:39 its was pretty cool 19:14:47 they reason why the clouds last longer might be ring of flame. you can get around most of the annoyance with that. no reason not to reduce duration. i just dont agree that firestorm is too strong. 19:15:23 -!- ussdefiant_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:15:40 smite targetting + vortices to block line of sight means that very few monsters are anything resembling a threat if you have fire storm 19:16:15 investing the same amount of exp into fighting and doging has very similar results 19:16:34 since the vortices keep them trapped in the clouds, which keep doing damage regardless 19:16:39 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:16:47 -!- ussdefiant_ is now known as ussdefiant 19:17:01 changing cloud duration wouldn't help much, but it would remove one over-the-top feature from a spell that has several 19:17:20 i dont think firestorm being super powerful detracts from the game 19:17:26 elliptic: Define overpowered? 19:17:43 dtsund: I don't believe I used that word 19:17:57 You used "too strong", which is synonymous 19:17:57 so why should I define it? 19:18:17 well then you have a definition 19:18:36 * dtsund rolls eyes, gives up 19:19:04 alefury: balance of L9 spells doesn't bother me that much, yes... but why not try to make it a little more reasonable? 19:20:09 ice storm isnt much weaker in practise 19:20:15 it also kills everything dead 19:20:56 and i think its great that fire storm is better than ice storm 19:21:13 I'm not trying to make firestorm and ice storm equal 19:21:30 really I'd like to nerf both a bit 19:22:55 * dtsund is of the opinion that game balance should never be in the hands of a #1 player 19:23:25 why? having awesome capstone spells is great. they could probably take the nerf, but thats not a reason to nerf them. 19:23:37 alefury: I'm not trying to make them non-awesome 19:24:08 seriously, I use the word nerf and people seem to interpret it as "nerf to oblivion"? no. 19:25:37 i know were talking about reducing cloud duration. but firestorm being too strong is not a good reason for that imo. having to wait them out if you dont have ring of flames is slightly annoying, but i dont think fire storm needs a nerf. 19:26:49 reducing cloud duration because waiting them out is annoying is fine. and if fire storm gets weakened in the process that is fine too. but i dont think anything is wrong with the current power level of fire storm. 19:28:10 It's not because you use the word 'nerf', and that's not how I'm interpreting this. It's because a top player goes "yeah, that could use a nerf", when I've seen that kind of expert-player attitude too often lead to crappy romhack difficulty. Maybe a nerf would be justified, but if it's just an expert player saying "nerf a bit", I need to see further logic before I can bring myself to agree.. 19:29:00 dtsund: as opposed to design by poor players, which definitely leads to great outcomes 19:29:08 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:29:22 (hint: crawl design is pluralistic, and that means not excluding people when possible) 19:29:28 dtsund: it isn't just me who thinks that the storms could use a nerf... this has been discussed here before 19:29:39 its fun to play with it, but in a 3-rune game it's usually suboptimal to get it. barring major fuck-ups you usually win if you get through the training phase (skill 15 --> 20). in a 15-rune game getting necromuation and a bunch of other stuff is probably a better investment. 19:32:15 you should just go ahead and make the duration the same as ice storm 19:32:30 its the best level 9 spell 19:33:39 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 19:33:59 Eronarn: Players will have a strong tendency to design to their own skill levels. It takes a lot of awareness to avoid this, and what I've seen of romhacks convinces me that this is quite often not there. 19:35:02 dtsund: congrats you completely missed the point 19:35:10 we have a large number of people who contribute to crawl design in this channel 19:35:16 they cover a large range of skill 19:35:37 excluding people of a given level of skill from design exacerbates the problem you are highlighting 19:35:41 dtsund: I've spent hours here discussing spell balance with other people. calling the results of those discussions "yeah, that could use a nerf" is insulting the crawl design process 19:35:59 'we shouldn't listen to the people on top' is as dumb as 'we shouldn't listen to the people on the bottom' is as dumb as 'we shouldn't listen to the people in the middle' 19:37:01 dtsund: I also spend a lot of time on ##crawl talking with the general playing audience about stuff. 19:37:14 also crawl designers rotate pretty frequently so there is less of an effect where people get more experienced with the game as they last longer as designers 19:37:15 And you, in turn, are missing the point of what I said, which is that the statements of the top players might well be true, but should not be simply be taken on faith. If there's been a lot of discussion that I wasn't around for, that itself is a good response to what I said. 19:37:20 is romhack some nethack variant i haven't heard of? 19:37:49 Zannick: It refers to hacks of ROM images of commercial games, to design new levels for them. Many of them are downright abominable. 19:37:58 oh 19:38:00 dtsund: you don't get to become a member of the devteam just because you won some games or submitted some patches 19:38:19 please try to give elliptic some serious consideration 19:38:21 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 19:38:28 well, those are either designed poorly or designed purely to be evil (eg. some mario bros. romhacks) 19:41:50 regarding mario: http://stabyourself.net/mari0/ 19:41:56 also, good night :) 19:42:19 -!- alefury has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:56:53 New geh:7 map (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4774) by evilmike 19:57:17 could use feedback on that if anyone wants to take a look... it's completely different from the other geh:7 maps 19:58:48 hm, so you need digging? 20:00:20 if you want to make a shortcut, it looks like 20:00:21 oh, only if you want to cheat? 20:00:24 yeah 20:00:29 looks navigable if you don't have it yes 20:00:49 looks like it might be a bit easy to ninja the rune? I should actually look at it in-game 20:01:02 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:01:06 my derp thing is I'm not seeing where in the fortress the stairs can be - what symbol would be used? ninjaruning might be easy but this design looks cool 20:01:25 if not used here a variant used elsewhere (water castle D level?) would be neat 20:06:50 elliptic: quite easy if you have shatter, also doable with lrd, yeah 20:07:21 evilmike: yeah, currently looking at it in-game 20:07:35 of course the other hell maps are mostly easy also with shatter 20:07:38 it could be worth addressing that... a crude way would be to make the walls of the rune area permarock, but I don't like that 20:08:01 I thought about making some of the walls thicker too, but figured, what's the point :P 20:08:10 I guess it would make lrd harder 20:08:26 metal would also make LRD harder 20:09:00 what about moving the rune to be next to asmodeus? would at least help a little 20:09:41 that makes it easier to apport ninja which is much more rampant 20:09:42 easy enough. It's worth noting, either of the other two geh maps have asmodeus in the rune room. Also putting him in the room before it makes apportation a bit less useful 20:10:05 I guess, yeah 20:10:51 I think it's okay... I mean it's not like you can plan on getting this map for an easier LRDgrab 20:11:10 that's true, and not like the others are much harder 20:11:20 wow, there are really a lot of smoke demons behind glass :P 20:11:36 evilmike loves stuff behind stuff!! 20:11:36 I want players to dash through the bridge parts 20:12:00 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 20:13:40 I think there are too many efreeti... maybe other people like them better, but I just think they are boring by geh:7 20:14:01 I guess so. The other maps have imps and lots of metal gargoyles and stuff though :P 20:14:07 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 20:14:51 oh yeah one thing I didn't mention, the endless lava is almost indistinguishable from normal lava except when you try to move over it 20:15:04 yeah, but so many rooms with one efreet just makes it look like you want to burn people's scrolls :P 20:15:52 hmm, in that case maybe the chance of having efreets is too high 20:15:53 hm, it is a little strange how the endless lava starts before the edge of the map... 20:16:15 well, the map is smaller than max size 20:16:34 normally it would fill the extra part with rock, but that looks really weird, because the level gets boxed in. so I did a weird thing to replace all the rock 20:17:04 also, making the map any bigger means it can't be rotated 20:17:50 yeah, it would be good to fix that one way or another 20:20:03 anyway, looks good to me aside from that and maybe changing some of the efreeti to balrugs or something :) 20:22:01 Ice fiends. *nods* keep players on their toes. 20:27:42 hah 20:27:53 but then they might be accidentally killed by stray bolts and fireball! 20:28:01 pit fiends would be better 20:30:47 Actually 20:30:52 I think we're looking at this wrong 20:31:02 It's Asmodeus' realm 20:31:15 and clearly he'd have a bitter rivalry with Cerebov 20:31:26 so what he should have is a bunch of imp quasi-uniques 20:31:42 buffed to fit and given fireball to spam 20:34:02 regarding the efreeti, they're being randomly picked: there are a bunch of squares where there is a 3/10 chance of placing an efreet 20:34:17 (4/10 of a sun demon, 2/10 of a hellion, 1/10 nothing) 20:34:30 yes, imps blinking constantly will make up for asmodeus losing teleport self 20:46:05 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:06 could swap efreet and hellion chances 20:49:24 -!- elly has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:42 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:51:57 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 21:10:23 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 21:10:48 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:31:05 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:34:55 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 21:43:28 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:36 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 21:45:28 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 21:46:03 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 21:46:13 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 21:46:13 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 21:47:29 getting transformed while in the process of putting on armour results in the armour being equipped in the transformed state (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4775) by reid 21:47:52 That's a fun bug. 21:58:14 that isn't going to be fun to fix, is it ? 22:02:27 probably not 22:03:19 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:56:33 huh, so I've finally got a GDB built that groks FreeBSD 22:56:58 ... but I might want some more symbols ... 22:58:17 03elliptic * r65724bed1333 10/crawl-ref/source/ (cmd-keys.h command.cc): Add 'r' key in targeting mode to move cursor to you. 22:58:27 03elliptic * r99622cc6e4f5 10/crawl-ref/source/acquire.cc: Make staff acquirement less deterministic. 23:01:56 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 23:09:25 -!- syraine has joined ##crawl-dev 23:10:40 -!- syraine has quit [Client Quit] 23:14:15 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:24:30 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 23:27:35 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 23:49:29 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:53:20 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:57:26 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev