00:00:30 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:01:28 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 00:04:16 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1253-ge187e2a (32) 00:08:27 -!- Ryak has quit [Quit: Some folks are wise, and some otherwise.] 00:13:05 -!- valrus_ has quit [*.net *.split] 00:13:06 -!- mikee_ has quit [*.net *.split] 00:13:06 -!- Chousuke has quit [*.net *.split] 00:13:06 -!- |amethyst has quit [*.net *.split] 00:13:06 -!- greensnark has quit [*.net *.split] 00:13:06 -!- Zannick has quit [*.net *.split] 00:14:10 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:14:11 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:14:11 -!- Chousuke has joined ##crawl-dev 00:14:11 -!- |amethyst has joined ##crawl-dev 00:14:11 -!- greensnark has joined ##crawl-dev 00:14:11 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 00:14:12 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:15:22 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 00:16:21 -!- jooosa has joined ##crawl-dev 00:16:24 -!- joosa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:16:32 -!- jooosa is now known as joosa 00:24:23 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:50:52 !seen cryp7ic 00:50:53 Sorry Wensley, I haven't seen cryp7ic. 00:52:42 -!- cbus has joined ##crawl-dev 00:52:44 http://techzwn.com/2011/10/legend-of-grimrock-bringing-back-the-fp-dungeon-crawl/ 00:55:08 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 00:55:37 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest57613 01:06:05 !seen cryp71c 01:06:05 I last saw Cryp71c at Mon Sep 12 15:09:07 2011 UTC (4w 14h 56m 58s ago) parting ##crawl-dev with message chanpart. 01:18:37 -!- jle has joined ##crawl-dev 01:19:18 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:32:27 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 01:35:05 -!- Guest57613 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:44:25 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 01:49:46 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 01:54:16 -!- Textmode has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:04:53 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:06:36 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:15:48 -!- jle has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:30:19 hey kilobyte - there's a 100% cpu ee process :-O 02:31:56 --- 02:31:57 (gdb) bt 02:31:57 #0 0x00007fec46c03938 in _nc_hash_map () from /lib/libncursesw.so.5 02:31:57 #1 0x00007fec46c0292b in _nc_scroll_optimize () from /lib/libncursesw.so.5 02:31:57 #2 0x00007fec46c1cb11 in doupdate () from /lib/libncursesw.so.5 02:31:59 #3 0x00007fec46c10ac3 in wrefresh () from /lib/libncursesw.so.5 02:32:02 --- 02:35:54 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 02:39:40 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 02:40:58 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:47:47 Napkin: oy vey 02:47:55 does the backtrace end there? 03:00:07 yeah 03:00:15 i should have issued some next, next, next to check 03:00:20 but already killed it 03:00:30 let's keep an eye on it :) 03:14:13 -!- oberstein has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:16:58 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 03:19:34 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:31:38 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 03:32:26 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:36:40 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:41:00 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 03:57:40 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:01:59 Overwriting saves without warning (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4724) by absolutego 04:04:14 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 04:04:15 hi 04:10:02 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:12:15 -!- jle has joined ##crawl-dev 04:13:03 !tell dpeg re: Food reform, potentially putting it in a branch on CDO for a few days for testing purposes might alleviate some of the major issues that people had to start with. 04:13:03 due: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 04:32:16 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Go on, try it!] 04:50:58 due: it's solved. Gone. 04:51:23 and sadly, too many parts of it remain 04:54:27 I think it's good that ou get (reduced) nutrition even if you get poisoned or sick from a chunk. 04:54:41 Other than that the changes are overreaching. 04:58:15 yeah, you always get nutrition if you eat a poisonous chunk 04:58:26 how can you manage to eat it is another matter :p 05:00:24 You should be able to :) 05:08:09 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 05:16:44 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:38:56 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 05:42:39 kilobyte: i think you are overreacting regarding the food reform. reverting it was probably for the best, but a lot of the changes were good. 05:43:48 also, regarding your comment about gourmand in one of the emails: afaik gourmand is considered a top tier amulet in the early and midgame for many builds 05:44:16 most other amulets are useless for the largest part of a 3-rune game, this is where gourmand shines 05:44:38 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 05:45:35 just lategame when you have enough permafood anyway (and know how much you found over the course of the game) it is not useful anymore, and in extended there mostly are no chunks. 06:03:30 moin 06:04:19 Hi Zaba 06:04:19 dpeg: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 06:05:44 !messages 06:05:44 (1/2) cbus said (4h 46m 17s ago): http://techzwn.com/2011/10/legend-of-grimrock-bringing-back-the-fp-dungeon-crawl/ 06:05:51 !messages 06:05:51 (1/1) due said (1h 52m 48s ago): re: Food reform, potentially putting it in a branch on CDO for a few days for testing purposes might alleviate some of the major issues that people had to start with. 06:06:16 due: probably true but too late :) 06:06:35 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 06:12:51 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:26:40 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 06:32:21 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:37:22 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:42:20 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:42:30 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:50:47 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:00:31 dpeg: I think any kind of major commit like that potentially should be -- especially more so if it's a contribution by another author. 07:01:04 Reverting a bad dev team choice isn't usually too hard -- but consideirng the experiences we've had with reverting contributions... perhaps best to avoid those situations if possible. 07:01:38 due: reverting most of the dwarven hall for example went quite well 07:02:10 and because of how CDO is set up, testing a major change like the food reform on a branch is hard 07:02:34 and also, no one suspected it will turn out badly 07:04:14 Yes. 07:04:48 My main concern at this point is not so much about the food itself, there are some good ideas/issues to address and we will do that. I am worried by the way the discussion went. 07:05:33 We should never let us pressurise by players. Recall when megabats were in? Despite the onslaught of excremental comments, we kept quiet and peacefully (almost :) reverted quite some time later. That's the way to do it. 07:07:24 One guy even observed this :( 07:07:26 "Impressive level of vitriol on that sourceforge thread. I didn't realize 07:07:26 the devteam was quite that aggressive when interacting with each other. I'm 07:07:26 sorry to see the food reform go, although it isn't like I tried a centaur 07:07:27 with it." 07:08:53 kilobyte: That was different though -- the main contributor just disappeared. 07:08:59 this is probably my fault in this case... I had been spending too much time among people where shouting at each other is the regular form of discussion. 07:09:03 kilobyte: I am not coincerned so much with the reversion of changes, just the disappointment and hard feelings involved. 07:09:54 yeah... I quite can't see how it could be salvaged really, though 07:09:54 dpeg: "almost" peaceful does not describe my reaction to megabats being reverted :p for several days I considered reverting the revert, but finally decided against it. 07:10:11 kilobyte: you can shout just fine, if you think it is worth it. Just do it in private conversation with me/us :) 07:10:12 usually we just "forget" to apply patches and have then rotting on Mantis :p 07:10:14 dpeg, did you check the dungeon crawl game? :) 07:10:22 but this one looked good before testing 07:10:23 cbus: no time! 07:10:24 dpeg, or do you get henzel reception in here? 07:10:26 :) 07:10:28 I'll add it to my extremely short list of "things I have compromised on that make me unhappy". The only other presence is guardian serpents :( 07:10:41 (I'll -> I added it) 07:10:50 s/then/them/ 07:10:50 due, what didn't you like about them? 07:12:30 Do I have to enumerate? :) 07:12:38 :p 07:12:54 a short treatise will do 07:13:05 do you prefer nagas, or nothing at all? 07:13:21 Mostly it meant having to completely re-imagine Aizul's back-story in a way that I found particularly frusrating -- I was very, very attached to the concept but it had to get sacrificed to resolve some minor issue with something else. 07:13:33 I kind fail to see what guardian serpents add to Crawl, and wouldn't be sad seeing them go 07:13:44 due: you shouldn't ever become a politician :) 07:13:56 dpeg: Why do you think I avoid most politics in these cases? 07:14:04 so Aizul could be a regular naga 07:14:09 kilobyte: bbbut they have been around since forever. Linley himself coded them! 07:14:27 dpeg: Megabats and guardian nagas have really been the only two things that I cared enough about to get involved in politics with -- and lost. :) 07:14:55 There were a lot of othe solutions to the guardian naga problem. 07:14:57 dpeg: now that's an actually relevant argument 07:15:11 like, giving them hands 07:15:30 "Guardian nagas are separated from their mothers at birth and magically and physically trained to be the fastest they can be." or something like that. 07:15:46 ah, and the speed issue 07:16:10 We have lots of stuff that could go in principle and yet stays. Pizza anyone? 07:16:15 I also still don't understand why peple thought megabats were so stupid in comparison to all of the other punny names. 07:16:28 Death cob, anyone? ;) 07:16:28 due: don't get angry. I don't understand it either. 07:16:35 dpeg: Oh, I'm not angry. 07:16:44 I am apathetic! 07:17:04 It's too long ago now to carr.e 07:17:31 I find death cob a fun if silly addition, but pizzas just an anachronism for the sake of anachronism 07:18:07 due: extend the bats vault with even more outlandish ones then! :p 07:18:28 ratbats 07:19:38 human bats (with a penguin with an umbrella nearby) 07:20:46 * due sleep. 07:21:43 emailed about food reform 07:21:47 kilobyte: re food. Let us not reduce chunks per corpse for now. We have cut Hive, and we can reduce chunks in later versions (and slowly) if we want. However, I really would like to make brown chunks newbie-friendly. They should always give nutrition and then no eating. (No eating is better than no regen because you often want to heal. With no regen, you have to wait off the Sick, with no eat you can keep going.) 07:21:59 due: nights! 07:22:34 Eronarn: Hive is gone already! 07:22:51 dpeg: yes, i know we've already done some of the stuff i list :) which i'm glad for 07:23:10 dpeg: got the nutrition thing done but not pushed yet 07:23:23 kilobyte: cool, many thanks 07:23:24 (looking for a hopefully unrelated regression first) 07:23:26 Eronarn: good list 07:23:50 It is probably enough to address one food think per release. 07:23:58 that's with sickness not non-eating, that one might come in too 07:24:10 i think the floor food thing can be addressed in the context of making item drops be more thematic 07:24:20 crypt/tomb just really shouldn't have fruit lying around 07:24:32 (except for possibly some 'offering to ancestors' vault, etc.) 07:24:32 kilobyte: the choice of illness is secondary... I just happen to think that no eat is a little more convenient to play with. 07:24:54 Eronarn: drops should in generally be biased by branch. That's long on my list, never happened. 07:25:28 tome actually does that in certain ways, and it works well - it does change the order people do branches 07:25:36 as in, something like our current per-branch mon-pick, right? 07:26:43 kilobyte: yes 07:26:55 We have branch specific traps and shops. And gold in Orc. 07:26:58 But a lot more could be done. 07:27:33 dpeg: all floor loot on snake shows up in snake 5 guardian naga vault instead :) 07:27:36 We can simply go by categories: armours, jewellery etc. 07:28:05 Eronarn: not so bad, but it is guardian serpent! :P 07:28:37 oops - i proposed the name change, too! need more sleep 07:31:14 kilobyte: can you live with moving slaying into the to_dam formula? I've talked to elliptic, he says it should work fine. I'd reduce the price for slaying, of course. 07:31:20 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 07:33:02 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 07:36:25 sure, yeah 07:38:00 so, as a contaminated penalty, it's non-eating then? 07:38:15 I think that is a little better, yes. 07:38:17 what would be the HUD light and dump/@/% message? 07:38:28 03kilobyte * r46e25b307e51 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Fix food colouring sometimes showing chunks as useless. 07:38:36 03kilobyte * r736aec211b23 10/crawl-ref/source/ (food.cc hints.cc): Instead of no nutrition 1/3 of time, 100% the rest, always give 2/3. 07:38:36 03kilobyte * r429c02b03c61 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/uniques.des: Tie Ignacio's chances to start harassing you to the number of Pan runes. 07:39:24 i didn't mind the food reform 07:39:30 "Nauseous" was suggested. @: You cannot eat right now. (Obviously, the duration should be short enough to not starve, or you can eat when starving.) 07:39:35 Mu_: good to know, but too late :) 07:39:57 Mu_: we're now cherry picking some components of it. 07:40:13 oh ;p 07:41:02 how long should it last? Same as sickness? 07:41:19 yes 07:41:53 I didn't mind the food experiment either but I'm one of the sloppiest players around. 07:44:02 I'l be very sad if a floor food change gets rid of Pandemonium Pizza 07:52:08 03kilobyte * r499d212c39dd 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: A new pizza chain. No, not Dominium, something better (and maybe edible). 07:54:10 kilobyte: :) 07:54:48 ZorbaBeta: thanks for the suggestion :p 07:56:33 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:01:18 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 08:02:04 not entirely sure if starvation protection would be good... that'd be the only function of nausea 08:02:33 -!- jle_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:04:50 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:09:46 kilobyte: okay 08:09:53 also, you don't die right away when starving 08:09:56 best to do nothing 08:10:09 if you eat brown chunks at Almost Starving ==> your risk 08:11:08 kilobyte: Sick would still be a status effect? I think some monster can give it to you? 08:20:38 yeah -- mosquitoes for example 08:22:49 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 08:24:14 Mosquitoes, komodo dragons 08:29:28 casting haunt too 08:45:46 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 08:50:58 -!- jle_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:53:29 can we keep the stat penalty from sickness for nauseousness? 08:53:40 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:53:55 also it might be a good idea to make things that cause sickness now cause sick+nausea 08:54:12 are you splitting sickness? or buffing it? 08:55:06 ais523: new status effect, nausea, for no eating 08:55:24 ah, OK 08:55:49 so eating contaminated chunks could lead to you ending up not being able to eat for a while? 08:55:58 that sounds like a way to trivially kill players via bad luck, if it chains 08:56:38 my thought is that perhaps nausea should come in levels 08:56:55 like: 50% nutrition from food, 25% nutrition from food, 0% nutrition from food 08:58:10 so if you eat a bunch of bad chunks you can get so sick you die, but if it's just one or two, you have the option to go to your permafood (but get a penalty to eating it - vomit some of it up) 08:59:54 effectively, a penalty to eating permafood is sort of a permanent penalty 09:00:05 but not a super penalizing one 09:00:37 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:03:51 ais523: why? If you eat brown chunks at near starving, it is risky. 09:04:08 dpeg: and what if no white chunks drop? 09:04:17 very early in the game, you're unlikely to have permafood 09:04:55 or to put it another way, I've dropped to starving before now due to a lack of chunks dropping, and needed to eat every chunk I found - brown or white - to get out of it 09:05:02 ais523: you do get nutrition from brown chunks 09:05:17 it's random whether you get nutrition or sickness, IIRC 09:05:21 or has that changed? 09:05:30 ais523: We're changing that along with nausea 09:05:31 I think 09:09:37 Yes. Brown chunks will always give nutrition and sometimes give Nausea. 09:11:52 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:13:30 Nausea is a minor negative effect (no eating) which replaces the Sickness (no regeneration). 09:18:04 dpeg: ais523 does make a good point that it's not minor for early game, even if brown chunks give nutrition 09:18:23 unless the nausea duration is shorter than the nutrition from the chunk lasts 09:18:30 and if that's the case nausea seems kind of pointless 09:18:36 the purpose of sickness is to hurt a player who tries eating in combat, which is mostly pointless 09:18:42 and of nausea is, umm, I can't figure it out at all 09:18:59 -!- Torokasi has quit [*.net *.split] 09:19:00 -!- Chousuke has quit [*.net *.split] 09:19:00 -!- |amethyst has quit [*.net *.split] 09:19:01 -!- greensnark has quit [*.net *.split] 09:19:01 -!- Zannick has quit [*.net *.split] 09:20:02 ais523: brown chunks are worse than white ones, they carry a risk. 09:20:23 In the case of Nausea, you may restrict your use of spells/rage, for example. 09:20:49 Since these are the tactical uses of nutrition. 09:21:03 doesn't that just make it optimal to leave a larder of nonthreatening white-chunk enemies on low-numbered D levels? 09:21:19 -!- greensnark has joined ##crawl-dev 09:21:30 dpeg: i think the kind of risk is bad: no risk at all if nausea dur is too short, very little risk if your nutrition level after eating the chunk is fine, potentially unavoidable death otherwise 09:21:37 and if you get nausea, just wait it off while travelling back there (you've already cleared the route out, so you're not going to need to use spells or rage, etc) 09:21:45 and kill them to restock on nutrition 09:21:51 seems a bit scummy, really 09:22:07 -!- elly has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:23:27 also, random thought: if you had multi level nausea, the highest level could make you throw up anything, even potions 09:23:31 We already have the "just wait if off" with Sickness. But Nausea is more convenient for the player because you've eaten, can help up and resume the game. 09:23:59 ais523: Leaving monsters back for food purposes is an old problem, not a new one. 09:24:16 The proper answer is to make non-threats disappear over time. 09:24:26 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:27 -!- Chousuke has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:27 -!- |amethyst has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:27 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 09:26:49 i guess that would make sickness pretty scary - get hit with a sick-causing monster multiple times, and you are unable to use a potion to clear it 09:26:59 would make ely/zin much more appealing in those circumstances 09:28:11 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 09:30:48 -!- Aerdan has left ##crawl-dev 09:32:18 I you have better ideas than no regeneration or no eating, I am all ears. 09:55:15 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 09:56:54 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:57:30 Let's use some more ideas for curses! 09:57:40 -!- oberstein has quit [Quit: uhhh] 09:58:04 mhh, nausea would be curable with !healing, right? 09:58:10 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 10:01:01 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:05:35 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:05:40 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 10:05:41 -!- Zannick has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:05:54 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 10:05:59 -!- |amethyst has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:06:09 -!- |amethyst has joined ##crawl-dev 10:10:23 dpeg: i would do three levels, each bad chunk eaten incrementing level by one, and each level = less nutrition from any food 10:10:52 say: 50/25/0, 66/33/0, 75/25/10 for %s 10:11:57 and change the message you get after eating food, like: "You eat a bread ration, but you feel too nauseous to finish." 10:13:21 this means you have to eat several bad chunks to get so sick you can't eat anything at all, and makes it safer to make you nauseous more often / for longer periods 10:14:57 alefury: yes, of course 10:15:05 i would also consider applying, if nausea 3 = 0%, this to potions: can't drink them if you're too queasy 10:15:29 why not keep it simple? 10:15:30 (otherwise, you run into weirdness with being able to drink porridge/water but not eat, or with not being able to drink porridge/water but able to drink other potions) 10:15:53 if people want to risk eating brown chunks at low nutrition they just have to spend a healing potion or starve for a while 10:16:13 alefury: yes, I agree. 10:16:30 I doubt kilobyte will accept a three tier food status. 10:16:37 giving something like 10% nutrition even when nauseous might work 10:16:44 <|amethyst> and carnivore wouldn't affect this, only saprovore and maybe gourmand? 10:16:47 or just allowing permafood, with reduced nutrition value 10:16:49 alefury: the issue is what i noted earlier: it's either not a risk, or a huge one, rather than a sliding scale of increasing risk from being nauseous 10:17:06 |amethyst: saprovore helps against brownity of chunks? 10:17:17 <|amethyst> it used to, I don't know about now 10:17:21 <|amethyst> made you sick less often 10:17:27 <|amethyst> pre-reform 10:17:29 yes, I think so 10:17:35 pre-reform ist post-reform 10:17:40 i don't think it's fun to introduce a risk that only ever actually comes up when you're already in a risky situation and is just another status light otherwise 10:18:09 well, i think nausea should last about twice as long as the nutrition from the chunk 10:18:55 maybe only as long as the nutrition from the chunk 10:19:08 Eronarn: I really think it is okay. Sick is almost meaningless in 0.9, if Nausea is sometimes meaningfull in 0.10, then I am happy. The real fun starts when we have Nausea inducing monster attacks. 10:19:16 this would keep it as purely a tactical effect the prevents berserking and big spells 10:19:25 <|amethyst> it doesn't only come up in risky situations... if you have permafood but choose eat a brown chunk instead, you weren't really at risk 10:19:30 alefury: if it's not longer, it is mostly pointless. if it is longer, it increases the range in which it can be a delayed kill to eat a brown chunk 10:19:31 <|amethyst> but with nausea you would be 10:20:10 i think still allowing permafood, but at greatly reduced nutrition value, might actually be good 10:20:45 alefury: yeah, you could separate it out from a three-level nausea, or apply it differentially to chunks/perma 10:20:45 lets say youre at very hungry, and have permafood and a brown chunk, but are in an area where white chunks can appear 10:21:14 options: risk eating the brown chunk, maybe get sick and have to eat the permafood at reduced value or spend a healing potion 10:21:27 or, eat the permafood right away, for full nutrition value 10:21:39 or hope to find a while chunk, and eat the permafood if you dont 10:21:53 *white 10:23:19 this keeps anyone who has permafood or a few healing potions from starving, but there is still a risk of resource drain 10:23:55 another option would be spending the healing potion, then eating the permafood, if permafood is somehow more scarce than healing potions in that game 10:23:57 alefury: exactly the scenario i was thinking of :) 10:24:04 particularly relevant early game 10:24:11 i think your proposal dilutes the risk too much 10:24:38 well, it's a few separate parts - feel free to break them out if some of them aren't so good 10:24:44 it leaves the option of just eating while chunks at reduced value, or even eating more brown chunks, then using a potion if it doesnt work 10:25:04 and with the "no potions" rule its even worse than the original proposal 10:25:33 because then youre really fucked, with no way to not starve 10:25:38 alefury: i think no potions, for eating 3 bad chunks in a row (or being made nauseous by an attack), adds a very interesting risk 10:25:41 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 10:26:47 if you're at nausea 2, it means: eat at a greatly reduced level your permafood; drink your potion now; hope to find clean chunks; hope nausea wears off; risk a brown chunk and maybe being stuck with no food or potions for a while 10:27:15 this all sounds very complicated 10:27:37 <|amethyst> from a risky choice, sure, but no potions from monster attacks seems... evil 10:27:54 could be a curse or something, might be fun 10:27:55 @??rotting devil 10:27:55 rotting devil (034) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 16-39 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Damage: 804(rot) | Flags: 05demonic | Res: 06magic(46), 02cold, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 105. 10:28:06 why bother with evaluating a whole bunch of confusing risks when you could just eat some permafood 10:28:12 oh right, evil doesn't show up on those 10:28:14 oops 10:28:29 MarvinPA_: because it'd decrease the nutrition from your permafood greatly 10:28:46 <|amethyst> Eronarn: MarvinPA_ means instead of ever eating a brown chunk 10:28:56 <|amethyst> I think 10:29:10 |amethyst: ideally this shouldn't be a feasible strategy for most characters for most of the game :) 10:29:13 this is usually not possible early on 10:29:32 not instead of ever eating a brown chunk 10:29:50 but instead of eating three in a row, certainly 10:30:12 MarvinPA_: i think people would, in practice, rarely eat three in a row - but they might often eat 2, and then really have to think 10:30:31 (particularly early on) 10:30:47 i think it is too complicated, a binary status would work better IMO 10:31:04 MarvinPA_: The proposal is that brown chunks always give nutrition and sometimes prevent eating (Nausea). I think no eating is more convenient for the player and also more itneresting at times. 10:31:06 it dodges the whole mess of communicating to the player that his nausea just got worse/better 10:31:23 alefury: that doesn't seem too hard to do :P 10:31:39 yeah, also the food reform seemed very good on paper 10:31:51 dpeg: right, that sounds much better than adding multiple levels of nausea at least 10:32:08 i think especially after the amount of trouble that caused a complex food related suggestion will not be received well 10:32:37 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 10:32:45 it's really not complex. the more nauseous you are, the less nutrition you get from any food at all 10:32:59 its more complex than a binary status 10:33:09 also most statuses (all?) are binary 10:33:16 yes, but less complex than even the rules for stuff like carnivore/herbivore currently 10:33:18 alefury: Pois is not 10:33:22 youre slowed, or not. youre levitating, or not. 10:33:26 true 10:33:40 any others? 10:33:42 glow 10:33:44 but with Pois, no rules change, only the damage 10:33:57 any of the buffs with variable effects 10:34:11 which would be what? swiftness is no longer variable. 10:34:22 sure, theres precedent, but i think it's not needed and not useful. 10:34:31 stoneskin, form AC 10:34:31 for nausea 10:34:36 there are tons of statuses that are variable 10:34:42 probably more than the non-variable ones 10:35:03 those do not change quickly 10:35:04 i think sickness might even be variable... is the stat loss more common at red sickness? 10:35:09 or is it just longer 10:35:14 just longer 10:36:06 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:38:01 anyways, dpeg: if you don't use the potion part, it's directly comparable to poison (increasing severity -> brighter colors -> more damage per turn ~= less nutrition per chunk) 10:38:17 er, per food, not limited to chunks 10:39:38 i guess one situation i would put forward is: 1000 nutrition, nausea, can't eat for 500 turns, end up with 500. vs. 1000 nutrition, nausea, 50% reduction in food for 1000 turns, end up with 0 - unless you eat some permafood (but it only boosts you half of what it otherwise would) 10:39:47 I understand, but I'd start with the most simple version of them all. 10:40:07 and this works whether nausea is binary or not 10:41:08 i would argue that the second scenario is far more interesting than it is more complicated 10:48:13 -!- oberstein has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:48:46 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 10:52:49 -!- jle_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:01:11 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 11:01:34 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:02:18 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:10:34 kilobyte: so, what's a good beginner combo for zot defence? 11:11:14 !lg * zotdef won 11:11:15 11. zerome the Heavyweight Champion (L27 TrBe), worshipper of Trog, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2011-09-06, with 99999999 points after 10642 turns and 5:34:10. 11:11:30 !lg * zotdef won -2 11:11:31 10. qwqw the Annihilator (L27 DECj), worshipper of Vehumet, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2011-07-12, with 99999999 points after 10583 turns and 2:48:30. 11:11:31 DESu 11:11:49 anyone know whether that TrBe game was abusing bugs? 11:11:54 * SamB is playing a TrHu right now 11:12:10 elliptic: watch it and see! 11:12:29 summon imp ==> shadow imp ==> permanent zombies is nice 11:12:55 can also be done with a necromancer, but Su segues better into more powerful stuff than zombies 11:13:23 SamB: anyway that DECj game was legitimate and I can recommend that (or a different DE caster) 11:13:32 my experience with chars that actually have to fight was pretty bad, i would get overwhelmed fairly quickly without proper equipment 11:13:33 DESu sounds fine too 11:13:41 go vehumet for the MP on collateral kills 11:13:58 TrHu's don't need much in the way of equipment 11:14:07 03MarvinPA * ra6754299f086 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/hells.des: Make Murray more common in vestibule_of_hell_mu 11:14:49 so ... there's evidently smoke machines in these levels, yeah? 11:15:22 near the entrance portals you mean? 11:15:46 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:16:00 * SamB looks at the .des 11:17:03 is that what the "{[(" are ? 11:18:33 those are stairs 11:18:56 oh 11:18:59 the fog would be some lua thing, possibly done via KFEAT or something 11:19:13 MARKER, I guess. 11:19:14 to place them on the stairs 11:19:20 it's done with markers, yes 11:19:29 what's the issue? 11:19:50 Well, I've got a refactoring I want to test ;-) 11:20:08 hmm. I guess I should just git stash, then teleport over there in wizmode ... 11:20:23 then git stash pop, and repeat 11:21:19 oh, but I should probably retag the any of the levels that don't have the fog machines first ... 11:21:33 (after stash) 11:21:37 what are you refactoring? 11:23:03 Well, all of the levels repeated the same MARKER: "line" 11:23:14 (it's actually 3 lines) 11:23:30 and I want to put it in the zotdef_setup function instead 11:23:36 ah 11:24:00 and I've never done vault stuff before 11:24:03 with a lua_marker() call? 11:24:11 yeah 11:24:18 that makes sense, indeed 11:24:37 There was one in there yesterday 11:24:54 before kilobyte took it out because it was screwing up the map 11:25:46 and someone had neglected to remove the equivalent "line" from one of the levels, so I was able to see how you do that :-) 11:26:28 hmm 11:26:36 why does syntax.txt claim that orcish idols do nothing ? 11:26:51 des files get translated to lua in a pretty straightforward way. util/levcomp.ypp should be pretty readable. 11:27:18 oh, there's actually one bug that *I* exploit ;-) 11:28:22 when confused, if you would step off the orb when you meant to swing at an enemy, you get asked if you're sure you want to leave it unguarded ;-) 11:28:46 sounds nasty :P 11:30:15 so what if it renders confusion nearly harmless to those standing on the orb! 11:31:33 huh, what's the point of the "no_rotate" tag, I wonders... 11:31:44 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110701115916]] 11:32:30 um 11:32:35 it prevents random rotation of vaults :P 11:37:25 well, I mean, I just found it on a level that I'm fairly certain at least gets flipped anyway 11:37:44 and I'm not at all sure what the point of putting it on a zotdef level would be, anyway! 11:40:20 to prevent rotation.. 11:40:37 those maps would look pretty ugly if they were rotated 90 or 270 degrees, don't you think :P 11:42:23 okay, so it only prevents 90/270 degree rotations 11:42:25 got it! 11:42:40 180 too 11:42:45 oh? 11:42:45 I think 11:42:50 well, could be... 11:42:52 it -is- different from flipping :P 11:44:47 oh, well, in theory yes 11:45:03 but it's hard to tell the difference with *these* 11:51:19 grr, why does & ^B keep having wild deviations from where I click? 11:52:21 it shouldn't have any 11:54:58 two possibilities: (a) issue with click handling (b) wizmode teleport is messed up 11:59:53 or maybe I clicked on someplace I couldn't get to 12:08:26 hmm, it looks like _cell_vetoes_teleport is being a bit too picky for wizmode teleports ;-) 12:08:59 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:09:16 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:09:28 * SamB adds a third parameter and alters it to not worry about potentially-deadly stuff at the target for wizmode teleports, just monsters and walls 12:10:07 hmm. 12:11:15 the start coordinates of builder_basic's "trails" are so weirdly biased. 12:11:24 * SamB is sure glad he's using ccache 12:11:52 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:12:24 * SamB just accidently made emacs run "make -k", which makes Makefile insist on a full rebuild when he makes it go and use ./compile.sh with all his custom flags and stuff 12:12:36 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:12:45 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 12:15:51 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:16:34 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 12:18:31 hm, room temperature here not exactly suitable for compiling on a netbook. 12:21:55 underclock! 12:22:39 I already use frequency scaling 12:22:45 and it's idle at what, 56degC. 12:22:52 normal would be 50 :P 12:23:21 * SamB wishes we had a bot with google here 12:26:05 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:26:17 Oh, the other thing I'm doing is making wiz-teleports just fail with a message when you can't go there, rather than sending you to a random destination. 12:26:54 -!- ais523 has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:26:56 -!- ais523_ is now known as ais523 12:34:32 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:43:16 okay, why does levcomp.ypp include "AppHdr.h" third? 12:44:56 who knows 12:45:20 I can see that MSVC must be prevented from using PCH there anyway (it skips *everything* before PCH inclusion, and yacc is outputting some #define directives at the beginning), but GCC still could if AppHdr.h came first... 12:46:11 (well, probably bison actually) 12:46:29 levcomp.lpp also includes system headers first 12:46:45 it's been that way forever (since 2008), though :P 12:56:24 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 13:00:31 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:01:51 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 13:04:10 03SamB * rb428cde9e27f 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/zotdef/zotdef.des: Zotdef: Factor the fog_machine stuff into zotdef_setup(). 13:04:20 03SamB * r001e47491636 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-transloc.cc: Wizard-mode teleport needn't worry so much about not killing the player. 13:17:41 -!- Paroid has joined ##crawl-dev 13:23:30 dpeg: I fully support the restraint of jellies 13:26:10 SamB: for re-spawning? 13:26:29 yeah, that thing you said in your email 13:27:11 SamB: good! I believe that players are overly paranoid but there is no reason to make that aspect easier. As I said, I can make some more jelly vaults for cosmic balance =) 13:28:10 I have no idea what they've got to do with food, but I can't think of anything that scares me quite the same way as hearing a jelly in the distance! 13:28:45 I'm like "nooo! my stuff!" even if I didn't actually stash anything on that level yet 13:29:13 jellies on new levels are excellent, especially for the urgency you just witnessed 13:29:37 the relation with the food discussion is that boring respawns like rats give food and piety for free -- not good! 13:30:09 -!- Zaba has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:30:10 yeah, usually that *is* on new levels 13:30:45 but it'd make me feel better if that was the only time I had to worry, at least near the beginning 13:30:56 I agree 13:31:21 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:31:29 of course, it remains to figure out how to let the players all *know* that they don't have to worry... 13:33:43 SamB: not an issue... this happens on its own. Expect four or so new versions from now... 13:34:06 what about the new players? 13:34:32 It might be nice to work something into the description... 13:34:33 New players aren't concerned by things like "I shouldn't stash here because a jelly might spawn." 13:36:44 SamB: new players wouldn't worry if they would not hear "gotta do it like this" from grizzled old players 13:36:50 what Fyren says 13:37:10 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 13:37:27 well, I'm pretty sure it worried me before I started talking to other players ... 13:39:54 SamB: perhaps your innocent question to yourself "is my gear safe" turned into "Oh my god! Gotta protect gear from JELLIES!" after talking to other players :) 13:40:10 no, it just bothered me 13:40:17 I don't really worry about hearing jellies on the level 13:40:24 because I don't care too much about new stuff anyway 13:40:35 eh, I can testify jellies freaked me out far before talking to others about it 13:40:45 possibly a bad playstyle; I just find it hard to get excited about unknown items in a roguelike 13:41:45 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Quit: Recalculating TATARI at "the crossing crossing"] 13:44:10 I ignore jelly slurps, too. Chances of it being an item I want versus risk due to rushing doesn't seem favorable. 13:46:04 Fyren: well, you can save items if you stop exploring slowly 13:49:44 but pretty much everyone explores at the speed of autoexplore 13:51:28 ais523: no, you can move to some other place 13:51:51 semi-serious question: why doesn't Crawl just disallow backtracking? 13:52:23 it seems that quite a lot of problems that need papering around with things like timed portal vaults and removing popcorn spawns stem from the ability to run away from more or less anything 13:53:15 If you remove upstairs then there's probably a bunch of balance issues about inventory space/stashes. 13:53:29 ais523: I agree, but the branching structure would have to be reworked, and I think I might be vaguely remembering something crawly that would make that not work? Could just be my imagination 13:53:50 The non-linearity of doing branches is something the devs like, though, isn't it? 13:53:50 It's been a while since I've read the philosophy section 13:54:24 Fyren: ais said nothing about enforcing linearity 13:54:34 just about backtracking 13:54:53 I started out (as mentioned) by interpreting it as removing upstairs. 13:54:59 you could, say, have a series of hub levels that you could go back to from branch ends 13:55:21 Rogue could get away with it, but it is also a much smaller game. 13:55:47 Part of non-linearity is not just choosing branch order but leaving branches, I thought. 13:56:01 Fyren: but the devteam have been coming up with convoluted plans to get rid of that 13:56:19 Fyren: nonbacktracking doesn't say much against that either, really 13:56:23 The rune lock stuff isn't about that. 13:56:26 Fyren: it would just be more complicated to work that in too 13:56:32 Well, if you can't leave a branch without getting to the end, it does. 13:56:43 that was an example 13:56:56 that model would disallow leaving branches in the middle, yes 14:02:27 The rune lock idea simply tries forces players to pick a fight and then fight it. Players can choose location and prepare and blow consumables. It will make the game more interesting. 14:02:43 Naturally, players follow the path of least resistance. But what if a little resistance is more fun? 14:03:14 dpeg: reminds me of NetHack's conducts 14:03:37 * SamB doesn't think removing backtracking is a good idea ... 14:03:53 I think the rune lock might make D more interesting and I know people complain about it. 14:04:18 It does seem like a meaningful choice. 14:04:35 * Torokasi has no opinion on rune lock in D yet, other than often feeling that D is a saner choice to explore than branch end:5 but. 14:04:44 People seem to advise something like "do all branches besides the last level, then D to as far as you can." 14:04:58 I'd want to experience it in person before making judgment on that one 14:05:17 It depends how hard the non-rune gauntlet is to get through. 14:05:32 dpeg: Did you think it would be easier to harder than the rune branch ends? 14:05:37 Or, not to. 14:06:52 Fyren: that is absolutely unclear. I have toyed with an extremely simple, but dangerous access for bypassing the rune lock: a small vault with pre-identified shafts on the rune lock level. You can go deeper but you can only go back up with a rune... 14:10:21 ais523: Making choices is in Nethack only realised by way of conducts? 14:10:46 dpeg: anything deviating from optimal strategy is typically considered an unofficial conduct, if minor 14:10:47 but that's common 14:10:58 Conducts would actually be cool 14:11:06 using, say, Mjollnir rather than Excalibur on a valk is not perfect play, but it's still fun, so it's still valid 14:11:07 They're fun in smash brothers, anyway ;-) 14:11:43 anyway ... is there any way to get an uncontrolled teleport with the "You can control translocations." mutation? 14:11:58 if people can win the game consistently - which IMO they should be able to do - they can do conduct runs to gain more from the run 14:16:38 SamB: used to be if you target yourself 14:16:49 SamB: If you pick a non-valid location with controlled teleport it should revert to uncontrolled. Although that could be tricky if you are in an open layout with the destination randomization 14:17:18 Paroid: oh, good point 14:17:26 I can just aim into solid rock 14:17:42 I'm on zot defence, you see ;-) 14:20:30 trying to test some things 14:26:32 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 14:34:35 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:44:30 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:46:59 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:11 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:51:08 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 15:02:30 !seen Napkin 15:03:20 -!- Sombrero_Mott has joined ##crawl-dev 15:03:25 Huh, poor Grenzell is absent? 15:03:34 tsk tsk Grenzell :O 15:06:03 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:06:26 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:07:01 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 15:07:41 I last saw Napkin at Tue Oct 11 08:00:31 2011 UTC (12h 7m 9s ago) saying lets keep an eye on it :) on ##crawl-dev. 15:07:54 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 15:08:43 Napkin: schon im Bett? 15:11:36 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:18:06 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:22:08 03SamB * reec18fcf5882 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/zotdef/zotdef.des: Zotdef levels: Move more shared stuff into zotdef_setup() 15:30:45 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:33:43 -!- annubbis has joined ##crawl-dev 15:46:00 -!- Gretell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:12 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 15:50:50 Hunger- on artefacts described improperly (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4725) by neil 15:58:46 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:58:51 hey guys, is it okay to ask questions about porting on this channel or should i go to ##crawl instead? 16:01:06 this channel is related to the game's development. questions about what to do in your game should go to ##crawl 16:01:33 <|amethyst> (and porting is development) 16:02:15 ah, i wasn't sure if annubbis meant "tele"porting 16:02:33 <|amethyst> oh, I didn't think of that :) 16:02:42 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 16:02:55 i didn't think of porting as in to other systems :) 16:06:50 ok, so i tried compiling it for dingoo(it's a open handheld thing that runs linux) but i'm having this error while it's compiling the cio.cc file: cio.cc:307:26: error: 'wcwidth' was not declared in this scope 16:07:04 Grandpa (L22 VpSu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster bush failed to pathfind to (40,33) (you) (Bazaar (ZotDef)) 16:07:08 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 16:07:18 Grandpa (L22 VpSu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster plant failed to pathfind to (39,34) (you) (Bazaar (ZotDef)) 16:07:26 wait a sec, the message was cut in half 16:07:30 Grandpa (L22 VpSu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster plant failed to pathfind to (39,34) (you) (Bazaar (ZotDef)) 16:07:39 Grandpa (L22 VpSu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster bush failed to pathfind to (39,34) (you) (Bazaar (ZotDef)) 16:08:09 Grandpa (L22 VpSu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster bush failed to pathfind to (39,34) (you) (Bazaar (ZotDef)) 16:08:33 ok, so i tried compiling it for dingoo(it's a open handheld thing that runs linux) but i'm having this error 16:08:49 Grandpa (L22 VpSu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (43,29) (you) (Bazaar (ZotDef)) 16:11:17 ...why are plants and bushes trying to pathfind? 16:12:02 bush mimic? :P 16:13:05 <|amethyst> "monster it" 16:13:42 invisible monster usually 16:14:36 <|amethyst> I had expected debugging messages would leak that kind of information 16:15:34 i think it's just grabbing the name the player would see rather than its "real" name 16:17:06 <|amethyst> annubbis: hm 16:18:40 <|amethyst> annubbis: ah... there's a prototype of a built-in wcwidth in unicode.h (which cio.cc includes)... but it's not there if UNIX is defined 16:19:27 <|amethyst> annubbis: but if UNIX is defined, the real header doesn't get included 16:20:27 so i just edit this header? 16:21:16 <|amethyst> annubbis: I've got a patch for you, just a sec 16:22:00 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:23:13 <|amethyst> annubbis: http://s-z.org/neil/tmp/crawl-wcwidth.diff 16:23:17 <|amethyst> annubbis: see if that helps 16:25:17 <|amethyst> annubbis: I guess it's possible that your libc doesn't have wcwidth even if you do include that header 16:26:07 <|amethyst> annubbis: if that's the case, you'll need to change the condition to defined(UNIX) && (not your libc) 16:26:17 <|amethyst> however you'd check for that 16:26:31 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 16:26:47 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 16:26:56 <|amethyst> so that you get the version in wcwidth.cc instead 16:27:02 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:08 i'm really new to linux, how do i apply this patch? 16:29:16 <|amethyst> in crawl's "source" directory, patch -sp3 < crawl-wcwidth.diff 16:31:04 <|amethyst> ( p3 because you want to ignore the "a", "crawl-ref", and "source" directory components. If you're in the directory that contains "source", you'd use -sp2, and one level up from that -sp1 16:31:08 <|amethyst> ) 16:31:33 <|amethyst> or you can apply the change manually, it's three lines 16:31:48 <|amethyst> the ones starting with + get added, with - deleted 16:33:34 just did patch but i got the same error 16:34:28 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 16:34:59 <|amethyst> okay, so instead you want to have the protoype if UNIX is not defined, or if you're on your libc 16:35:21 <|amethyst> not sure how you'd check for that, maybe a __DINGOO define or something? 16:35:32 <|amethyst> also, you'll need to make sure wcwidth.cc is compiled 16:37:19 <|amethyst> not sure how to do that exactly, I'm not familiar with the build system 16:37:34 i'm using a simple toolchain 16:38:42 Zannick: I think those might be real plants and bushes, actually! 16:38:48 not sure though 16:39:00 but it would explain why they were having so much trouble with it 16:39:20 as do i :P 16:39:27 but i think plant mimics are an interesting idea 16:39:39 using the CROSSHOST=mipsel-linux 16:39:52 ("The plant was actually an oklob!") 16:40:27 sometimes i just need to edit the makefile to something like this: cc=mipsel-linux-gcc cxx=mipsel-linux-g++ 16:40:57 what is annubbis trying to do here ? 16:41:35 i'm trying to port the game to dingux 16:41:39 <|amethyst> SamB: cross-compile crawl, but his wchar.h doesn't appear to define wcwidth 16:41:48 oh 16:42:10 <|amethyst> so he needs to use the one in unicode.h/wcwidth.cc even though UNIX is defined 16:42:22 <|amethyst> unless there's some other reason it's not showing up 16:43:29 my wchar.h 16:43:30 http://pastie.org/2679471 16:43:44 annubbis: what C library are you targetting ? 16:43:48 <|amethyst> that's the mips one, not /usr/include/ right? 16:43:55 yes 16:44:00 <|amethyst> oh 16:44:03 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 16:44:04 <|amethyst> wchar support disabled 16:44:20 <|amethyst> so, yeah, you'll have to use crawl's version 16:44:32 is that the only wchar thing we need ? 16:45:27 <|amethyst> hm 16:45:47 <|amethyst> I also see calls to wcrtomb 16:46:23 <|amethyst> but the only thing that ever includes wchar.h is libunix.cc 16:47:06 yes, but I imagine that's kind of important for unix console builds? 16:47:35 <|amethyst> yeah 16:47:51 <|amethyst> I hadn't realised at first that there was more than wcwidth 16:48:33 there's a call to iswalnum too 16:48:50 annubbis: the obvious thing would be to try and switch to a uclibc/headers with wchar enabled ;-) 16:49:25 <|amethyst> but unless you statically link those, that means it won't run on standard dingux machines 16:50:27 <|amethyst> and I'm not sure if you can say to statically link one .o in a library and dynamically link everything else 16:51:09 i think it links everything with --static 16:53:14 SamB, i asked about that on their irc, there should by reason why they used uclib wih wchar disabled(some crazy bug maybe) 16:53:33 <|amethyst> another possibility is to take the wchar.h and wchar.c from the full uclibc and include/link against those manually 16:55:00 SamB: uclibc doesn't compile out of the box either, IIRC 16:55:38 Unless that was fixed since about 0.8 17:00:45 -!- jle_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:03:54 so, they said that enabling wchar on dingux would break previous c++ apps 17:07:51 amethyst, any idea how can i use the crawl's version? 17:10:26 <|amethyst> annubbis: you can use the prototype and make sure wcwidth.cc is compiled in, but it sounds like that's not all that's missing 17:10:41 <|amethyst> so I'm not sure what to tell you 17:11:05 <|amethyst> other than "get an alternative wchar implementation and use that" 17:11:41 gnulib might have one ... 17:11:45 <|amethyst> but that's not entirely straightforward, and it might not even work if wchar_t and ucs_t aren't the same 17:11:54 prototype? 17:12:18 <|amethyst> the int wcwidth(uct_t c); 17:12:55 <|amethyst> if you don't know C and/or C++ getting something to work is going to be a challenge 17:14:47 yeah, i'm not very familiar with c/c++, i'm doing an openg gl project for college, but i don't get to really learn the language 17:16:23 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:16:27 Grandpa (L26 VpSu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (31,30) (you) (Bazaar (ZotDef)) 17:17:59 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 17:18:02 v=0.9.0:lv=0.1-zotdef.1:tiles=1:name=Grandpa:race=Vampire:cls=Summoner:char=VpSu:xl=26:sk=Summonings:sklev=27:title=Hellbinder:place=Bazaar:br=D:lvl=1:absdepth=1:ltyp=Port:hp=176:mhp=176:mmhp=203:str=7:int=29:dex=14:god=Sif Muna:start=20110911183240S:dur=13035:turn=10486:urune=14:nrune=14:kills=3985:maxskills=Summonings:fifteenskills=Fighting,Spellcasting,Summonings,Necromancy:status=regenerating slowly:gold=402:goldfound=3137:goldspent=2755:time=2011091122 17:18:02 1622S:type=crash:milestone=ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104:: ZotDef:: monster it failed to pathfind to (31,30) (you) 17:18:37 !lm grandpa -crash 17:18:38 Malformed argument: -crash 17:19:13 !lm grandpa 17:19:13 610. [2011-09-25] Grandpa the Wrestler (L23 DrTm) killed Frederick on turn 104941. (Vault:8) 17:19:19 !lm grandpa crash 17:19:19 No milestones for grandpa (crash). 17:19:31 !lm grandpa type=crash 17:19:31 No milestones for grandpa (type=crash). 17:19:40 !lm Grandpa crash -log 17:19:40 No milestones for Grandpa (crash). 17:19:54 oh, right, zotdef 17:20:05 sequell probably doesn't keep track of that 17:20:31 then why is it listed in this file full of stuff for sequel to pull down? 17:21:18 namely, def.stones contains: 17:21:29 [remote:cdo:http://$cdo/milestones-zd-svn.txt] 17:21:30 remote.cdo-milestones-zd 17:21:45 which is how I got that line 17:21:53 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 17:22:12 !lm granpda zotdef 17:22:13 No milestones for granpda. 17:22:18 !lm grandpa zotdef 17:22:18 100. [2011-10-11] Grandpa the Hellbinder (L26 VpSu) found a dark rune of Zot on turn 10534. (D:1) 17:22:24 !lm grandpa zotdef crash 17:22:24 7. [2011-10-11] Grandpa the Hellbinder (L26 VpSu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (31,30) (you) (Bazaar) 17:22:27 !lm grandpa zotdef crash -log 17:22:27 7. Grandpa, XL26 VpSu, T:10486 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/Grandpa/crash-Grandpa-20111011-221622.txt 17:23:18 yeah, not there 17:24:47 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:25:37 ookay ... 17:25:51 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 17:26:05 Napkin: we have a problem... 17:26:56 If you mean the dump isn't there, you need to change trunk to 0.9. 17:27:47 oh 17:28:04 well, why doesn't it put the dumps in the place Sequell expects them? 17:28:21 and/or why doesn't sequell check the version field to figure out where the dump would be ? 17:28:56 There was some weirdness for the tournament regarding the release and there was some hacky solution, unless I'm thinking of something different. 17:28:59 sequell is probably just using a known location + version + timestamp 17:28:59 And it's been like that since. 17:29:10 i'd assume that for zotdef, the location is completely different 17:29:30 i don't see this morgue in 0.9 either 17:29:32 Non-zotdef, non-crash logs have the same issue for CDO. 17:29:38 yes 17:29:39 http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.9/Grandpa/crash-Grandpa-20111011-221622.txt 17:29:58 oh, i was looking at morgue- whoops 17:30:13 the gametype isn't used in determining the storage location, seemingly 17:30:28 only the highscore/milestone locations 17:31:03 giant goldfish can't pathfind 17:32:36 well, at least that gave me a clue what to answer for the "which bazaar" question 17:34:18 probably what we need to do is check if the player is actually in D:1 before complaining here 17:34:25 or at least if the player is in D 17:36:17 -!- annubbis has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:44:28 presumably that is not a check being tripped in normal crawl 17:45:16 yes, it's zotdef-specific 17:45:37 to prevent bugs from making things too easy, I think 17:45:49 I mean, that's what the comments seem to indicate 17:46:19 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:50:32 -!- Paroid has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:20:36 03SamB * r086fe3ab7e7b 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-movetarget.cc: Zotdef: Fix bazaar "failed to pathfind" crash. 18:25:37 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 18:29:00 -!- elly has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:44 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 18:35:31 You missed the chance to call it a bizarre bazaar crash. 18:36:04 there should be a unique that spawns only in bazaar 18:36:19 he could be the bizarre bazaar czar 18:58:38 -!- alefury has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:13:07 his name should be, uh, Martin Pool 19:22:01 he should be a shady kenku merchant who hides all his illicit merchandise under his wings 19:22:56 do you know why it should be Martin Pool? 19:27:36 obviously! 19:27:52 good, good 19:27:57 and I think you should be ashamed of yourself. >:( 19:28:05 too soon, man 19:28:14 too soon? 19:28:46 even you acknowledge this 19:29:00 I bet you're just reveling in your tastelessness 19:29:03 * SamB does nothing of the kind 19:29:11 oh, you're reveling 19:29:23 like a caroler on christmas eve 19:30:11 leaping merrily from snowbank to snowbank, cackling with delight as you denigrate the good name of martin pool 19:30:26 so the answer is no, I did not catch that reference :) 19:31:50 well if you bzr log lp:bzr | less (or preferably a local copy thereof) and scroll down to the end... then scroll up until you actually see a name ... 19:33:11 icic 19:33:45 maybe we should add a quote for examining bazaar portals, that is just the complete commitlog of bazaar 19:35:17 right ... 19:36:24 the catch is that since quotes don't show at all if the term is not large enough to fit them, the quote will exist only to punish decadent hugetermers 19:42:38 -!- Danei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:44:43 lol 20:04:01 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev 20:15:40 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:50 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 20:33:25 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:06:44 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:09:16 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:14:20 -!- ZorbaBeta has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:14:36 -!- ZorbaBeta has joined ##crawl-dev 21:15:24 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:32:40 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 21:46:35 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 21:58:02 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 22:02:11 03SamB * rc6be924f1000 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/zotdef/zotdef.des: Zotdef maps: add a comment about why zotvault5 is disabled 22:02:56 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:04:02 -!- HangedMan has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:13:51 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 22:22:09 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:43:45 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:55:38 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 23:06:27 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:06:40 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:45 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:10:51 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 23:13:42 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 23:27:41 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:32:06 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:32:19 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:23 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:34:12 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:38:00 -!- Pingas has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:53:20 Display reads "HP: 62/62 (61)" (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4726) by smock