00:01:53 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1200-g1930a6b (32) 00:03:24 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1200-g1930a6b (32) 00:05:09 <|amethyst> And now the same with "honeycomb" 00:05:40 <|amethyst> /crawl-svn-1930a6b/dat/des/branches/hive.des:26: Bad item name: 'honeycomb' 00:07:02 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 00:07:39 <|amethyst> SamB: maybe put that all inside an if (with_inscription) {} 00:08:02 |amethyst: oh. I thought it *was* 00:08:22 <|amethyst> oh 00:08:47 <|amethyst> you're right, it is 00:14:22 Crash crashes. Something about hive. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4708) by Kyrris 00:14:53 the amazing power of Internet 00:17:18 quite a descriptive title 00:18:30 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1200-g1930a6b 00:32:11 03SamB * r77a1a6fae658 10/crawl-ref/source/items.cc: Fix item name parsing. 00:33:23 |amethyst: well, that *should* fix that... 00:33:41 evidently they didn't think inscriptions were going to be a problem ;-P 00:33:41 <|amethyst> SamB: ah, I was trying a change that made it if (this->base_type == OBJ_FOOD && descrip != DESC_PLAIN) 00:33:50 <|amethyst> but yours is better 00:34:42 I thought of that sort of thing, but thinking what of that sort to do was making my head spin, so I did this instead ;-) 00:44:40 Napkin: I broke it. Can you "push the button" when you get a chance? 00:46:25 !tell Napkin I broke Crawl just before the daily update; could you redeploy ASAP? 00:46:25 SamB: OK, I'll let Napkin know. 00:46:45 <|amethyst> SamB: maybe also rax, for CAO? 00:47:15 Is that how that works? 00:47:19 <|amethyst> I guess 00:47:50 <|amethyst> She runs CAO, and I've seen other devs ask her to push an update 00:48:00 !tell rax I broke Crawl just before the daily update; could you redeploy ASAP, if Napkin can't do it for CAO? 00:48:01 SamB: OK, I'll let rax know. 00:51:49 <|amethyst> I still wonder why a local build of 1930a6b works fine 00:53:06 how far did you get ? 00:53:13 <|amethyst> starting a game 00:53:20 it doesn't hit until D:2 00:53:48 <|amethyst> ah 00:53:55 <|amethyst> when you first get a food vault 00:54:10 <|amethyst> but on CDO and CAO it happens immediately on connecting 00:54:37 <|amethyst> hm... is there a config option to validate all vaults on startup? 00:54:46 I don't know! 00:55:01 I would have guessed there was some DGL thing 00:57:29 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 00:57:29 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 00:57:29 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 00:59:03 -!- bmh has quit [Client Quit] 01:17:15 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:22:38 morning 01:22:39 Napkin: You have 9 messages. Use !messages to read them. 01:25:01 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1201-g77a1a6f (32) 01:25:15 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 01:25:17 --- 01:25:25 CXX abl-show.o 01:25:30 abl-show.cc: In function ‘void _add_talent(std::vector >&, ability_type, bool)’: 01:25:33 abl-show.cc:946: warning: ‘result$is_zotdef’ may be used uninitialized in this function 01:25:37 abl-show.cc:925: note: ‘result$is_zotdef’ was declared here 01:25:39 --- 01:28:42 kilobyte, well, layout vaults are tagged "overwritable", which allows other vaults to be placed on them at all 01:29:26 kilobyte, I guess TILE is simply not reset for those cells that get overwritten and that don't specify a TILE of their own 01:30:20 is that a typo up there? 01:31:18 kilobyte, so yeah, it's a general problem with the 'overwritable' tag 01:31:42 Napkin, no 01:32:57 humm... 01:34:48 it's referring to result.is_zotdef 01:34:51 it means attribute is_zotdef of object result isn't used? 01:34:58 it means it's not initialized 01:35:15 but used by something 01:35:37 mmh! first time I see such naming in a compiler warning 01:36:03 I guess I'm spoiled by the crawl-devs ;) 01:50:48 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1201-g77a1a6f (32) 02:02:53 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:03:09 Newest local tiles trunk is crashing on startup 02:04:53 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:46 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:58:53 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:13:18 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 03:16:08 -!- Mottie has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:31:09 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:41:47 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 03:42:05 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 03:43:01 -!- mikee_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:43:01 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 03:55:59 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 03:59:23 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:30:02 RichardHawk: with an "invalid item" error, right? 04:32:32 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1201-g77a1a6f 04:58:43 is there going to be an option to not have huge inscriptions on food? 04:59:15 The new build works. Quite excellent. 05:00:04 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1201-g77a1a6f 05:06:54 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:33:46 SamB: is there are reason to _not_ use PCH by default? 05:33:53 a/are/any/ 05:58:57 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:11:42 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:18:02 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:22:49 03kilobyte * rca656e6b7cf0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abyss.cc dungeon.cc stairs.cc startup.cc): Don't use init_pandemonium() for Abyss colours. 06:22:50 03kilobyte * r80bf1cb23b32 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Don't use CYAN for Abyssal rock -- metal happens there (frequently, even). 06:22:50 03kilobyte * rb981239c6e57 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Add a compile check for TAG_MINOR_VERSION fitting in one byte. 06:22:50 03kilobyte * r76b7e0022e64 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h items.cc zap-data.h): Some clean-up of enum.h 06:22:50 03kilobyte * r3aa9bb720414 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/abyss.des: An Abyss rune vault. Forgot rElec? 06:46:47 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 06:48:19 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 06:49:07 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:52:12 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:06:00 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 07:20:50 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Read error: No route to host] 07:21:12 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:32:22 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 07:35:02 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:03:44 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:04:39 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 08:09:35 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:25:29 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 08:26:21 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 09:03:23 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:31:32 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:32:15 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:37:04 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:37:51 <|amethyst> hm... what's the proper way to submit a minor non-bugfix patch? Mantis? Contact a dev? 09:39:13 |amethyst: If there's a mantis for the bug, I think posting it there is the best. 09:39:29 And maybe telling one of the devs on IRC so they notice it :) 09:40:04 <|amethyst> it's not a bug 09:40:17 <|amethyst> someone here asked "is there going to be an option to not have huge inscriptions on food?" 09:40:24 <|amethyst> I made a patch to add an option 09:41:04 Well, mail someone or ping them here and ask... 09:41:46 <|amethyst> I guess since SamB added the food labelling, I'll send it to him.. Mostly I wasn't sure of whether it should go on mantis, being not-a-bug 09:42:57 Well there are loads of feature ideas on there as well 09:43:22 <|amethyst> which seem to be discouraged these days :) 09:43:40 <|amethyst> I guess uploading the patch to the wiki is another possibility, but I don't see that done 09:44:18 Nah, that seems wierd. 09:44:39 I'm just gonna shut up, I don't know anything :D 09:45:22 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:49:44 |amethyst: Mantis would be the right place to submit patches (even feature patches) 09:49:59 <|amethyst> okay 09:52:55 mroovka the Grappler (L12 KeWn) ASSERT(prog >= 0) in 'skills2.cc' at line 152 failed on turn 17348. (Lair:4) 09:58:44 <|amethyst> there we go 10:00:23 <|amethyst> !tell SamB I made your food edibility an option; patch at https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4709 . 10:00:24 |amethyst: OK, I'll let SamB know. 10:00:41 <|amethyst> !tell SamB Food edibility *labelling*, of course. 10:00:42 |amethyst: OK, I'll let SamB know. 10:00:53 mroovka the Grappler (L12 KeWn) ASSERT(prog >= 0) in 'skills2.cc' at line 152 failed on turn 17348. (Lair:4) 10:02:01 Option for food edibility labelling (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4709) by neil 10:07:06 mroovka the Grappler (L12 KeWn) ASSERT(prog >= 0) in 'skills2.cc' at line 152 failed on turn 17348. (Lair:4) 10:08:02 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 10:09:39 |amethyst: patches on mantis for non-bugs or whatever is a-okay, it's just feature requests that aren't supposed to be on mantis anymore 10:11:21 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:11:39 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: aha, I see 10:12:06 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: what if I had a multi-commit git branch? Should I link to the repository in the bug report? 10:12:10 the point is that mantis is bad for lengthy discussions, and so anything that needs, or might spark, a lengthy discussion shouldn't go there 10:12:20 <|amethyst> MarvinPA: or should I make a single diff? 10:12:50 for bigger things, making a mantis item with a link to the repository is probably best (or ideally, a gitorious merge request) 10:13:00 <|amethyst> maybe I should learn gitorious :) 10:14:41 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 10:22:26 <|amethyst> So how do merge requests work? I clone the repo on the gitorious site, push my changes to the cloned repo, then what? 10:23:20 <|amethyst> ah, I see, there's a "request merge" button 10:26:12 <|amethyst> hm, okay, I think this makes sense 10:27:46 <|amethyst> and if I were going to do a merge request, I guess that means I should put my stuff in the "master" branch so the devs don't have to look for it? 10:35:15 i think if you clone the repository and do stuff in your own branch, you can then do a merge request from that branch and it works fine 10:35:50 <|amethyst> hm, I only saw the "merge request" button on the repository page, not the branch page 10:35:53 i'm no expert on how it all works though by any means, maybe SamB or someone who's more familiar with it can help 10:37:25 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 10:37:59 it looks like some of the old merge requests are from other branches, anyway 10:42:14 Crashing in Lair: ASSERT(prog >= 0) in 'skills2.cc' at line 152 failed. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4710) by mroovka 10:43:01 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 10:44:12 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The professional IRC Client :D] 10:44:31 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 10:44:38 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 10:45:11 greensnark: i just committed a configurable "replace these strings with these in banners" to dgl svn... should make your dgl config a bit easier? 10:53:44 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: I love my HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 10:53:59 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 10:54:16 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 11:00:11 03kilobyte * re7a410cc434b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (18 files): Remove unused level flags, forbid exclusions in Abyss and Lab. 11:06:43 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238]] 11:28:11 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 11:30:56 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:56:02 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:59:22 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:02:27 |amethyst: you can put your stuff in whatever branch you want; you pick a branch to request the merge from 12:02:27 SamB: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 12:04:15 the only restriction I've noticed is that, while you can update exactly what commits are included in a merge request, there doesn't seem to be a way to get them from a different branch 12:06:07 03kilobyte * r2e641ab673c8 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h spl-cast.cc spl-data.h): Remove spells: Detect Secret Doors and Detect Traps. 12:10:29 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:12:15 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:16:52 <|amethyst> SamB: thanks; did you see my patch? 12:17:14 right, right 12:17:38 I had opened the issue but forgot to actually look at it yet 12:17:47 <|amethyst> does it look reasonable? I wavered between food_label and label_edibility as the option name 12:18:20 <|amethyst> I also wasn't sure about "ST" for starving versus "S" for satiated in the short labels 12:20:15 I think it's good 12:20:25 <|amethyst> hm, also it seems that totally inedible food is being listed as "starving" 12:20:36 yes, I thought it would be 12:21:40 but I didn't know what the best approach to fixing that would be ;-) 12:22:01 putting even more effort is a waste, let's beat some sense into dpeg instead 12:22:14 I'm afraid there is no way to salvage the "reform" 12:22:18 <|amethyst> hm, looking at _maximum_satiation, 0 is "near starving" and <0 is inedible 12:22:27 but both return 0 12:22:34 especially since no one explained what the alleged problem it is supposed to fix is 12:22:41 <|amethyst> SamB: no, HS_NEAR_STARVING is 1 12:22:46 oh, right 12:23:01 so is nothing edible when starving only? 12:23:03 <|amethyst> SamB: I think HS_STARVING isn't actually possible on edible food, so you can make that "inedible" instead 12:23:13 that's such a hack! 12:23:22 I say we leave it for dpeg to fix ;-P 12:23:37 <|amethyst> yeah 12:24:04 <|amethyst> especially since it would break if the scale ever does change (unless "inedible" is added as zero) 12:24:12 kilobyte: I guess you're saying I shouldn't bother applying this patch ? 12:24:48 |amethyst: I was thinking it might be safer to add that as -1; I'm not really sure if these are saved anywhere 12:25:25 |amethyst: it's a nice patch, certainly! 12:25:33 and I'll take at least this one comma 12:25:44 <|amethyst> heh 12:26:01 <|amethyst> I didn't feel like separating that one out as a separate patch 12:26:05 <|amethyst> or mentioning it :) 12:26:06 the food inscriptions seem broken for ghouls. bread rations say edible at very hungry and chunks edible at very full 12:26:33 probably is 12:26:37 <|amethyst> oh, yay, special casing 12:26:37 also vamps 12:26:43 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 12:26:55 I noticed vamps were special cased in the other places that tried to print satiation levels 12:27:03 <|amethyst> mummies likewise 12:27:16 <|amethyst> I mean, likewise have funny inscriptions 12:27:23 well, they would, yes 12:27:50 I suppose I *could* try something, but kilobyte seems to think it's not worth bothering 12:27:57 SamB: what I mean is, I would not put much hope into trying to polish the turd anymore... 12:28:30 so, how would we revert the food reform, anyway? 12:28:42 you may try, I just think massaging interface can't possibly making it reasonable since the whole reform has far deeper problems 12:29:01 reverting code is damn easy... 12:29:37 in fact, the only thing that is not a git command is upgrading saves 12:29:55 I just thought that there might be trouble sorting it out ;-) 12:30:13 <|amethyst> yeah, you have to re-adjust everyone's mutations, depending on how old the save is 12:31:04 galehar's planning to remove the multiple chunk thresholds which i think fixes most of the issues anyway 12:31:08 |amethyst: they are versioned so it's just the same thing as adding them was 12:31:30 and just leaves the improved behaviour for partial levels of herbivore/carnivore + gourmand, seems fine to me 12:31:47 (although in that case maybe the inscriptions aren't necessary at all anyway) 12:32:00 MarvinPA_: presumably! 12:32:01 <|amethyst> kilobyte: I was thinking you'd have to be careful not to adjust saves that hadn't been updated in the first place; but I guess if you set rather than add/subtract mutations, that's not an issue 12:32:01 MarvinPA_: partial levels of carnivore are probably the only good part 12:32:11 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 12:32:22 yeah, I think the thresholds was the part people noticed 12:32:28 as being annoying 12:32:48 |amethyst: the way I'd do it would be adjusting only saves >= TAG_MINOR_REFORM < TAG_MINOR_SANITY 12:33:36 MarvinPA: partial levels of herbivore are as bad as current handling of brown chunks 12:33:48 kilobyte: also, I think my way of printing the inscriptions-type stuff is nicer than what was there before 12:34:18 do you remember the berserk food adjustments? It carefully tried to never require knowing your exact nutrition just before battle. 12:34:42 SamB: you mean, on food or internally? 12:35:43 kilobyte: I switched from messy conditionals to an using a vector of strings and splicing them together 12:36:08 <|amethyst> what about three thresholds? say, near starving (preference 0: rotten chunks etc), satiated (1-3), and very full (4+) 12:36:42 <|amethyst> allowing for the "foods of desperation" angle while keeping the normal cases (contaminated chunks) simpler 12:37:20 the proposal on the forums is just to make rotten chunks inedible again, and contam chunks edible at the same threshold as normal ones 12:37:28 seems much better 12:37:50 hmm... 12:38:04 SamB: ah, that part... yeah, that's an improvement 12:38:09 basically same as before but with improved behaviour for mutations and the gourmand nerf 12:38:14 (as long as it's no longer used for food, that is :p) 12:38:29 I don't see why rottenness can't be treated as contamination 12:38:41 but we don't need this complexity for it 12:38:48 KISS 12:38:52 well, okay, fine 12:39:06 simpler to go back to almost what we had before 12:39:32 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 12:39:34 but I do like the idea of getting nutrition even as you become ill, at least sometimes 12:39:46 well that's what contam chunks would do 12:39:57 <|amethyst> likewise poison, mutation, etc 12:40:01 <|amethyst> ? 12:40:01 you get nutrition even if you get sick 12:40:05 right 12:40:57 <|amethyst> would gourmand still let you eat rotten chunks? 12:41:19 I hope gourmand would go back to being "amulet of troll" 12:42:19 gourmand needed the nerf, and being able to eat up until full is still pretty great 12:42:34 aww 12:42:48 <|amethyst> un-nerf gourmand and make it also give hunger :) 12:42:50 so can we have a NEW amulet of troll, which would be more rare ? 12:42:56 oh, that's an idea 12:43:44 or you could just play a troll :P 12:43:52 true ... 12:45:24 -!- greatzebu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:45:31 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 12:45:55 -!- Mottie has joined ##crawl-dev 12:56:08 03SamB * rf3837c3fdc5e 10/crawl-ref/docs/options_guide.txt: A missing comma, kindly donated by |amethyst (Neil Moore). 13:02:19 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:03:27 ...now I'm imagining a punctuation telethon. 13:03:38 kilobyte: so, player_in_mappable_area doesn't control anymore whether the minimap should be shown, right? 13:05:30 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:05:59 hmm, if that creates confusion, I shouldn't have reused the old name 13:09:06 CIA doesn't announce branch creation, but I made one with the food abomination reverted 13:09:23 yeah, I wish it did 13:09:28 (just so any talk about complexity of reversion can be pushed aside) 13:09:31 I also wish it got commits in the correct order ;-) 13:09:31 Napkin: bah. your change of the default file mode in dgl makes the created rcfiles not editable by the website... 13:09:50 yeah, that too 13:10:18 didn't i do 644, paxed? 13:10:31 probably it needed 664 13:11:07 rcfiles are games.games, at least on NAO. 13:11:20 maybe i'll just make the default fmode configurable anyway. 13:11:23 problem was, that they were created 666 13:11:29 kilobyte: If I understand correctly, the old flag which hid the minimap wasn't being used anymore anyway, and the minimap was visible in abyss/lab? 13:11:38 Napkin: so? 13:11:42 and writable for world was a definite no-go 13:11:49 quite! 13:12:11 -mode_t default_fmode = S_IRUSR | S_IWUSR | S_IRGRP | S_IWGRP | S_IROTH | S_IWOTH; 13:12:14 +mode_t default_fmode = S_IRUSR | S_IWUSR | S_IRGRP | S_IROTH; 13:12:24 hey, should still be readable by world 13:12:27 isn't that enough? 13:12:43 uh huh. riiight. 13:12:46 whatever. 13:12:57 oh "not editable by the website" 13:13:27 that's why I'm guessing you need group-writable? 13:13:30 edlothiol: exactly, the function now returns yes for map rot 13:13:39 well, paxed, my desire not to have everything (save-games, configs, etc) writable by world isn't that far fetched on a multi-user OS 13:13:52 group != world 13:13:54 edlothiol: so I'll better rename it like I should to from the start 13:16:15 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:16:16 of course, it's quite possible 664 wouldn't work, either 13:16:16 that won't help, SamB - he's probably not going to join www-data to group games 13:16:33 yeah 13:16:53 there's no web-editable config files on cao? 13:17:23 kilobyte: ok, thanks. I'll remove its usage in Webtiles then. 13:17:29 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 13:18:13 03kilobyte * r37e991120c60 10/crawl-ref/source/ (9 files): Rename player_in_mappable_area(), re-use of the old name brings confusion. 13:18:18 no, paxed 13:18:48 only webtiles on CDO allows to edit the config files, but that runs with as the same user as DGL 13:19:21 oh, that's certainly one way to do it 13:29:56 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 13:30:07 03edlothiol * r51675736824b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (tileweb.cc webserver/static/game/render.js): Webtiles: Don't hide the minimap on map-rotting levels. 13:34:06 Archimedes the Digger (L2 DDEE) ASSERT((int)Buffer.size() == expanded_keys_left) in 'macro.cc' at line 553 failed on turn 892. (D:1) 13:41:59 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 13:55:36 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Quit: Recalculating TATARI at "the crossing crossing"] 14:03:58 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:08:11 Nuthulu the Caller (L6 DESu) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,52) (the Orb) (D:1) 14:11:34 Napkin: it's configurable now. 14:11:43 great :) 14:12:28 haven't actually tested it yet :P 14:23:21 well, it seems unlikely to mess up the "parsing" of food item names ;-P 14:46:09 03SamB * r47f6ed6eff9c 10/crawl-ref/source/Makefile: Make by-the-book PCH/ccache handling optional. 14:55:28 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 15:06:50 wow 15:07:08 this "unidentify inventory" command is more powerful than I expected ;-) 15:07:27 I don't even know the enchantment of my armour anymore! 15:08:19 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:21:23 -!- UbAh has joined ##crawl-dev 15:21:31 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:23:19 "Long pointy thing," "metal shirt," "lump of organic matter." 15:24:06 okay, it's not *that* effective 15:24:51 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:31:19 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 15:37:29 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.7/20100713130626]] 15:48:31 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 15:52:29 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:57:04 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:02:48 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 16:06:38 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:07:46 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 16:07:47 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 16:07:47 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 16:07:58 kilobyte: I agree 100% with your comments on food. 16:10:40 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 16:13:59 bmh: Summary of that? 16:14:07 The food changes are bad? 16:14:13 ghallberg: Yes. 16:14:29 I already found the food game to be the most intensely dull part of crawl/ 16:14:35 ??c-r-d 16:14:47 ??crd 16:15:12 crd[1/1]: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/crawl-ref-discuss 16:15:13 crd[1/1]: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/crawl-ref-discuss 16:15:26 (Slow Henzell is slow.) 16:15:35 ah ;-) 16:15:51 ghallberg: hint! 16:15:52 Cheibriados appreciates the response. 16:16:01 SamB: Yeah 16:16:18 dtsund: :-D 16:16:23 SamB: I'm subscribed but I haven't sorted it out so that I can read it well yet... 16:18:35 Does Tiles support oversized floor/wall tiles? 16:19:23 For example, a 4x4 floor tile that gets cropped 16:19:42 I very much doubt it 16:20:13 Hellbinder wizlab does the floor layouts by chopping them up into individual tiles and dictating which tile goes in exactly which space, if I recall. 16:20:16 While I would like to see procedural textures in crawl, I've been avoiding tiles code like the plague 16:20:58 it already supports procedural textures in console ;-P 16:41:29 -!- greatzebu has quit [Quit: greatzebu] 16:52:47 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:54:09 03SamB * r92a3a48f4624 10/crawl-ref/source/ (invent.cc items.cc): Improve inventory titles for weight display patch. 16:54:20 03tkpub_ahnfyc * rcdd930f5ad98 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/database/help.txt invent.cc startup.cc): Ctrl-W toggles display of weights 17:05:35 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 17:06:53 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 17:07:15 hey 17:07:54 hi 17:08:15 hi 17:10:08 Are we gathered here to discuss http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.games.roguelike.crawl.devel/677 ? 17:10:28 What is it about? (Cannot check from here.) 17:10:30 SamB: I'm here for cheat codes. 17:10:32 -!- Zaba has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:10:58 would you like it if I made your name a cheatcode for being given a link to a survey? 17:11:09 dpeg: food reform. Duh. :P 17:11:24 I guess, but I cannot copy the link from here, so I have to ask. 17:11:40 Well, I said everything I wanted to say in an email. 17:11:54 dpeg: was a link to the email thread on gmane 17:11:56 the link is to kilobyte's mail 17:11:56 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:12:13 so it is not about food reform, but about "food reform" 17:12:15 because sourceforge's list archive doesn't seem to have threaded it right 17:13:50 so the point is that lower than hungry satiation level requirement is bad for many reasons. 17:14:02 I'm just going to play as a Mummy until the dust settles ;) 17:14:07 yeah, a lot of the stuff actually *is* nice 17:14:25 but that just sort of eclipsed everything else in a lot of players' eyes 17:14:42 galehar: yes, seems like it. I wasn't annoyed in my game, but I rarely needed to dabble in very hungry territory. It must be worse for herbivores. 17:15:00 and since that's the whole point of the initial patch, it's better to revert the whole thing as kilobyte's suggested, and try to move incrementally from there, because there are a few nice thiings to keep 17:15:19 SamB: it is not that simple, there is actually positive feedback. (The whole situation reminds me a lot of the round vs square LOS situation, to an uncanny degree actually) 17:15:38 dpeg: stop trolling! :P 17:15:41 I think the point of the quotation marks is a lot of us don't understand how food is supposed to have been "corrupt" before 17:15:45 No! I am angry. 17:16:02 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 17:16:08 I don't think we actually want to merge that "food sanity" branch 17:16:46 galehar: I waive all my rights on that one to you. Your list of things to keep is good. Please try to address the newbie trap that current brown chunks are (I mentioned that in my mail). 17:16:47 Regardless of the outcome, the most important thing is not to piss off everyone (devs, not players) 17:16:48 that would throw the bath water out with the (corrupted) baby 17:17:40 Someone remind me what food reform is /supposed/ to accomplish? Aside from making an irrelevant-but-annoying mechanic relevant and obnoxious, I mean. 17:17:54 dpeg: they give a nauseous effect (less threatening) that prevents you from eating for a while 17:18:17 Aerdan: there are some reasons in the mail linked up there, but I tend to disagree with them 17:18:17 galehar: That's new behavior? 17:18:23 galehar: but they do give nutrition? 17:18:34 monqy: getting nutrition from stuff is nice 17:18:39 bmh: that's a suggestion 17:18:46 dpeg: yes 17:18:47 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 17:19:03 e.g. "You'd _always_ eat the contaminated chunks first." Not me! I saved them until Very Hungry because they induced Sick and I hated Sick 17:19:12 oh, yes 17:19:16 I don't follow that bit 17:19:26 Starting at the beginning of the universe, food exists only to compel the player to explore the dungeon, right? 17:19:40 it's especially not true for Deep Dwarf Berserkers ;-P 17:19:44 bmh: yes. Inherited from rogue. Only that rogue uses only permafood. 17:20:02 why can't we just use score for that ? 17:20:03 food exists as a resource to moderate spellcasting 17:20:07 and OOD monsters? 17:20:17 as well as evoking 17:20:18 Wensley: yes, it got more duties in later games. 17:20:18 that's true 17:20:38 my continued stance is that food is an interesting mechanic, but definitely could be made better 17:20:51 dpeg: ok. Food is an exploration macguffin. 17:20:52 Food is used to balance casting, raging and as a quite mild generally clock. 17:20:53 using score alone to enforce progress wouldn't be too great; not everyone cares about score, after all. 17:21:17 monqy: well, what are they going to do? sit on "5" for the whole game? 17:21:20 monqy: Exactly. Death is a threat, a low score is not. 17:21:26 Wensley: I adopt an alternative stance which is that I find food to be excruciatingly dull. 17:21:32 SamB: Ever played a Mummy? 17:21:42 not much 17:21:50 SamB: about the merging of food_sanity, as I said, if remove the satiaion limits, we don't need the whole "food preference". And the whole new system is based on it. 17:22:15 * galehar need some sleep 17:22:24 I do agree that the food reform is way too complex 17:22:35 bmh: mummies are only like that when doing very specific things, like farming Xom effects or waiting for things to fall asleep, or waiting out wrath, or obeying a conduct telling them to hold 5 on every level 17:22:47 bmh: and normally-played mummies don't do any of those 17:22:50 bmh: or were you joking 17:23:22 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: zzz] 17:24:13 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:24:23 It's late on the Continent. 17:25:45 wierd 17:25:55 resizing while in the inventory doesn't work too well! 17:29:41 Okay, uh. I have a statement, and I would like it if someone would point out any flaws with that statement; it was originally intended for dpeg, but he left before I sent it to him. 17:29:54 To wit: All food does, at present, is restrict some abilities and kind-of-but-not-really prod players into pushing onward rather than lingering. The proposed changes appear to make it far more intrusive—and I didn't see any indication that any benefit was being derived from the intrusion. 17:30:32 (Who implemented the food changes?) 17:30:47 bmh: this is no time for finger-pointing! 17:31:28 SamB: Misunderstanding. I mean more in the sense that the pro-food-change devs are probably best equipped to answer Aerdan's question 17:31:44 in that case, it was Ryak (in ##crawl) 17:31:49 at least I think it was Ryak 17:31:54 yeah 17:31:56 ah yes. 17:32:08 but I dunno if there's any point in asking him! 17:32:42 I dunno. If none of you can refute the statement, I'm not sure it'd be worth my time talking to the persons responsible for the changes. 17:33:14 I don't really get it either 17:33:33 well, it seems they didn't have just one goal 17:33:51 too many goals may be the whole reason this is working so badly 17:33:53 I never understood (I think the game would be better without it and a bunch of other things), but I'm not a crawl dev so 17:34:16 Ryak was just the implementor, I believe that the initial push was between dpeg and Vintermann (a wiki commentator) 17:34:34 monqy: Without food? Or without changes to food? 17:34:39 without food 17:34:51 monqy: I respectfully agree. 17:35:14 Personally, I think food would be better left replaced entirely; as it is, the burden it imposes falls unevenly and there's nothing terribly interesting to offset its presence. (Ability restriction based on nutrition level is not 'interesting' by the definition I am employing.) 17:35:21 "food" was originally in that sentence..I don't know what happened to it 17:36:04 monqy: What else would you like to see axed? 17:36:07 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:eating 17:36:09 Wensley: That would probably explain why he took exception (in PM) to my characterization of the issue. :P 17:36:24 Aerdan: likely, yes :P 17:36:32 bmh: off the top of my head: identification minigame, traps and secret doors 17:36:54 in any case, the point of food, in my eyes, isn't to "restrict abilities", it's to create long-term strategic interests 17:36:57 So, casting would only be restricted by mana? 17:37:04 hmm, I'm not sure I mind the ID minigame 17:37:09 just as mp is a short-term strategic interest 17:37:14 well, tactical, really 17:37:16 ghallberg: monqy didn't say that :) 17:37:31 ghallberg: there could still be cooldown or something1 17:37:47 well, Mana does do that 17:37:48 how are cooldowns any better? 17:37:59 bmh: He edidn't state an alterantive though. 17:38:00 cooldowns means kiting 17:38:20 God I'm too tired for this. 17:38:26 Wensley: If so, it does a /terrible/ job of that at present. I'm not sure there's any point to making it better in that department, unless 'better' includes making it interesting. The only thing I could see making it interesting is something Nethack does, so it's already not viable. :p 17:38:29 ghallberg: True, true. (Is this conversation more productive than griping or counter-griping about food changes?) 17:38:35 I'm not even sure you /can/ make food interesting. 17:38:47 ghallberg: If you're tired, try coming a few timezones east. It's earlier here. 17:38:57 Aerdan: what is it? 17:39:09 Aerdan: I agree that it's a negligible threat at this point, but I blame hive for that. 17:39:11 just because nethack does it doesn't mean we won't ever 17:39:11 SamB: food as a source of intrinsics (which Crawl dubbed mutations). 17:39:16 oh 17:39:35 Wensley: I don't think Hive is relevant to that, honestly. 17:39:35 yeah, that's probably not happening? 17:39:40 Adeon: food intrinsics are wicked and will never be implemented in crawl. 17:39:49 Aerdan: we'll see then, once hive gets axed :) 17:40:14 Wensley: I thought it had already been axed and reborn? 17:40:19 is a hive portal still in production? 17:40:20 or hasn't it been reborn yet? 17:40:29 if it's been axed, then I certainly haven't heard about it 17:40:34 Hive is the worst of all possible branches. Do I have rPoison or Ignite Posion? 17:40:44 I think you're making a mistake by removing it, but I didn't hear of any replacements for it which would offset the loss in guaranteed food (e.g. increasing food generation in general). 17:40:49 the branch, as such, is gone as I understand it 17:41:03 I like what doomrl does instead of food, where health and ammo are limited (don't regenerate) and you have to explore/kill to get more, but there's no resting or chopping or eating or anything like that. the closest is picking up ammo/medpacks, applying medpacks, and reloading 17:41:21 Aerdan: How about expanding the exhaustion system used by berserk? 17:41:23 but my understanding is that it either *is* or *will soon be* a portal vault 17:41:39 huh, weird that I missed hive being removed 17:41:58 well, it's only removed in new games since the change 17:42:05 bmh: Possibly! 17:42:07 bmh sorry 17:42:22 any game in which the branch had been scheduled will still have it 17:42:26 ghallberg: What? No flights this time of night? ;) 17:42:42 I'm not necessarily about removing food, but I *am* against removing food without replacing it with something that creates long-term decisions 17:42:50 bmh: Have to go to school tomorrow... Sorry 17:43:02 oh and the health/ammo deal ends up being more relevant and less annoying than food, somehow. too bad I don't think anything like that would fit into crawl. 17:43:13 Btw, where is everyone located that tey are up at this hour? 17:43:28 15:43 -- not late at all 17:43:28 East Coast of the US. Moving to the West Coast in a couple of days. 17:43:39 I am not moving to the west coast 17:43:51 nor I 17:43:55 how come it always seems like hardly anybody lives between? 17:43:56 bmh: Then I'd have to move pretty for east. 17:44:05 * Torokasi is on east coast. 17:44:11 SamB: human populations tend to group around coastlines :P 17:44:11 * ghallberg is on west coast. 17:44:15 Of sweden. 17:44:22 Wensley: so it seems! 17:44:32 also, because the interior of the united states is a burning conflagration where only the suffering of innocent souls can be heard. 17:44:36 s/coast lines/water 17:44:36 also wheat. 17:44:40 Torokasi: +1 17:44:56 * Torokasi lives in Midwest so is intimately familiar with said suffering. 17:45:14 My timezone offsets this past month have been awesome: GMT+1 -> GMT+5:45 -> GMT-5 -> GMT-8 17:45:24 :5:45? 17:45:32 Wensley: Kathmandu is weird. 17:45:32 Wensley: Sure. Replacing it with something more interesting would be good. I just don't think that /changing/ it would be of benefit, particularly not the changes that have been proposed. 17:45:47 SOME of the proposed changes weren't too bad 17:45:59 well, even implemented 17:46:07 Food really isn't a long term burden. The only time I ever ran up against starvation was when I spammed Orb of Destruction when I wasn't carrying any food. 17:46:13 anyways. my thought on food is that Hive as a portal (so only what you can carry out) is good; my only inclination would be give it sewer-level time out? other than that... 17:46:22 and yeah, food is really NOT long term 17:46:30 I hit starving a few times on a recent KoFE, but... yeah, poor luck there 17:47:01 Torokasi: why time-out ? 17:47:04 SamB: not quite as long-term a concern as, say, conservation of blink scrolls, or something like that 17:47:24 well, if we can do portal sans time-out, sure 17:47:32 that was the plan I saw 17:47:34 wasn't sure if we had that as an option, my apologies 17:47:37 then yeah 17:48:11 does sewer-level just mean "longish"? 17:48:11 it's still a one-shot thing, gives a benefit to str (need carrying capacity to get any large amounts out)... though. 17:48:12 All hive-as-a-portal would accomplish (if it regenerates) is forcing a stockpile near the portal position. 17:48:23 What if there was an exhaustion mechanic. Exerting yourself increases exhaustion, resting (or doing easy things) decreases it? 17:48:26 not a regenerating one, just a oneshot entry. 17:49:09 As a one-shot option, it's still not a good solution because it would encourage the player to drop anything nonessential outside before diving in and grabbing all he can carry. 17:49:17 Yeah. 17:49:26 On the other hand that's going to happen with a portal anyway. 17:49:39 Wensley: What do you think the most important long term conservation items tend to be? 17:49:50 and races that need it (namely, spriggan) won't be able to carry too much out anyway 17:50:09 !speed, !hw, !healing, ?tele, ?blink, /haste, /healing, /tele 17:50:15 oh, and !cureMut 17:50:18 nobody needs hive 17:50:25 bmh: probably ?recharge, too 17:51:08 you can't evoke rings of tele anymore, right? 17:51:10 monqy: I'll buy that for a three-rune. I'm not convinced past that Spriggans won't be hurting bad. 17:51:15 correct, IIRC 17:51:21 monqy: I agree. Whenever I've done hive, I end up with about 30 honeys and a stack of jelly stashed in Hive:1 17:51:46 i will agree that Hive as it was (0.9) produced too much food, thus the one-shot.) 17:51:50 Torokasi: You can carry out of hive while burdended. 17:52:04 Let me ask you this: how many of you 'Hive can go' people are /not/ veterans? 17:52:06 Torokasi: if you really need hive, either you've mismanaged or really unlucky, and do you really expect crawl to be forgiving about this one thing :) 17:52:24 Aerdan: we already do that with the other portals. what's the big deal? 17:52:47 I never said "hive can go" 17:52:52 I've never even seen hive 17:53:00 monqy: I'm not convinced from my own spriggan runs that the food is really that common for them outside of Hive. And... I'd expect it to be forgiving over stupid, yes. >_> 17:53:01 Aerdan: I've won twice in my life, not sure if that counts 17:53:19 plus: without huge modifications (I dunno if the portal does these) hive is just a horribly boring branch full of bad fixes to bad problems 17:53:41 * Torokasi is on the fence with Hive, has three wins, none online since I dislike lag. 17:53:44 monqy: Oh, sure 17:53:54 monqy: It sure sounded like they were trying to make it interesting! 17:54:02 SamB: good luck with that 17:54:08 without making it horrifically complicated 17:54:11 What I mean by 'veteran', for the record, is 'someone who tends to survive past the first 5-10 main-dungeon levels'. 17:54:23 I will not argue boring outside of "entering way underleveled", but the latter part... bad fix to bad problem is better than no fix to bad problem. >_> 17:54:31 some changes to killer bee (larva) behaviour were involved 17:55:57 monqy: yes, I sort of feel like making hive a portal vault is not the optimal solution to the problem (but I'm not about to suggest a better one) 17:56:02 ((I mean, /I/ don't qualify as a veteran by my own definition. Doesn't mean my input is invalid, though.)) 17:56:34 Aerdan: being a good crawl contributor is more about experience than about being good at the game 17:56:41 I think dpeg only has like 8 wins, or something 17:56:43 Wensley: better one: slightly increase generation. even better: alternative to food??? 17:56:57 bmh: Sorry for slow reply: yeah, that's true, but on a spriggan often that's only like two more items. Low Str sucks. >_> And theoretically if Hive is made more interesting/challenging as a portal vault, then you'll need more items to deal with it, so can't carry as much out. But. 17:57:03 monqy: I wouldn't mind an alternative to food, we just need to come up with one 17:57:08 right 17:57:12 same 17:57:25 once again, all I'm opposed to is the "remove food and we're done!" approach 17:57:42 Wensley: well, yah 17:57:49 you'd die of starvation! 17:57:51 same. 17:57:55 <_< 17:57:58 not if you're really good :P 17:57:58 "remove food and we're done" isn't a good solution but "remove food" is a good start imo 17:58:01 SamB: apart from Mu and Vp 17:58:10 I don't think anyone's proposing to just remove food entirely without replacing it with something else. 17:58:19 I think blood still counts as food for these purposes ;-P 17:58:26 monqy: What's your opinion on an exhaustion mechanic? (a la zerking) 17:58:31 I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here, but I've seen that attitude before 17:58:49 remove food, all races must kill or die of not killing things. 17:58:50 bmh: it works for zerking and ddoor...I don't think it would work well for much else 17:59:00 Wensley: They did remove food with the axing of Hive! 17:59:03 * dtsund ducks 17:59:08 dtsund: not that kind 17:59:25 dtsund: have you followed suit in clite? 17:59:30 you still get a couple of guaranteed food spawns 17:59:33 Nope. 17:59:34 bmh: where would you be applying exhaustion, exactly? 17:59:35 Wensley: No, he hasn't. 17:59:45 monqy: Spellcasting exhaustion 17:59:49 dtsund: as the only licensed crawl forker, how do you feel about food 17:59:51 Wensley: Says it's kind of silly to remove it without doing something to offset the removal. 17:59:51 My plan for Hive is slightly elaborate. 18:00:01 Wensley: what do you mean? it's GPL'd 18:00:07 everyone is so licensed 18:00:15 Food/hunger mechanic in Crawl is problematic. I don't yet know how to fix this problem. 18:00:16 SamB: still waiting on xcrawl and mcrawl :P 18:00:29 xcrawl? mcrawl? 18:00:31 I didn't say they had actually forked 18:00:36 ??xcrawl 18:00:37 xcrawl[1/3]: Chapayev's new Crawl variant project. Until the first release, finished stuff will go in this learndb entry. 18:00:38 just that they were licensed to do so 18:00:45 One idea kicking around in my head is to remove monster respawning, remove hunger clock, and just have food fuel casting and berserking... 18:00:46 SamB: it was a joke :P 18:00:56 http://www.goodmangames.com/xcrawl.html <-- !? 18:00:57 my joke was not as good, I'm sorry 18:01:11 let's both be sorry :) 18:01:12 bmh: Crawl Light 18:01:22 https://github.com/dtsund/crawl-light 18:01:24 bmh: I don't think spellcasting exhaustion would work well...players would end up casting, walking backwards until capable of casting again, repeating 18:01:25 dtsund: Shouldn't you be curing cancer? :) 18:01:38 It's my day off. 18:01:40 bmh: Crawl Light is a lot easier 18:01:43 Look, we can't just give out licences to fork, otherwise we'd have people forking all over the place and that'd... that'd... 18:01:52 SamB: I think it's only somewhat easier at current. 18:01:57 ...well, we'd get to see a lot of pretty sights but it'd still be a bad idea. 18:01:57 Torokasi: already did! 18:02:04 I still haven't implemented Pandoora. 18:02:10 dtsund: that idea (the one kicking around in your head) is good 18:02:15 and they don't seem to do it that often, at least not very far 18:02:32 monqy: I'm not fully satisfied with it at present, but I think it's still better than current. 18:02:36 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 18:02:40 I probably won't implement it for 0.2, though. 18:02:47 SamB: I might just play it. Is there a light server somewhere? 18:02:53 bmh: see #crawllight :) 18:03:02 bmh: light.rawrnix.com 18:03:14 dtsund: ssh? telnet? 18:03:16 Telnet. 18:03:25 Be warned that trunk is quite janky at the moment. 18:03:31 how antiquated! 18:03:35 whatever, I'll just grab the OSX snap 18:03:51 I'll have to try crawl light sometime 18:04:06 maybe once pandoora goes in 18:04:15 I keep trying to get Stone Soup to incorporate the percentage-based success indicator 18:04:35 dtsund: I'm for it! 18:04:36 I don't understand why they're so averse to numbers 18:04:51 especially percentages 18:04:59 percentages are much friendlier than vague (and possibly misleading) words 18:05:04 dtsund: +1 18:05:07 quite! 18:05:14 Put a patch on mantis? 18:05:14 I'm for it. 18:05:18 but we've had this conversation before, I think 18:05:49 except devs opposed to it were around then? 18:05:57 bmh: I cloned the git repo, they could just do a git cherry-pick if they wanted it. 18:06:10 I think they're opposed to the very idea. 18:06:20 some of them certainly are 18:06:52 < monqy> percentages are much friendlier than vague (and possibly misleading) words 18:06:56 no they aren't 18:06:58 oops 18:07:07 percentages are bad for conveying information about this sort of thing 18:07:21 Why? 18:07:22 and misleading words are better? 18:07:32 SamB: naturally 18:07:55 percentages may be bad, but I still think they're better than words 18:07:57 Hunger cost and percentage success are two very different cases. Words are appropriate for the former, but not the latter. 18:07:58 at least the way crawl implements it 18:08:06 dtsund: because you're not interested in just the single event of failing 18:08:15 dtsund: Uh, no, I am. 18:08:41 oh, you want to do log of failure chance? 18:08:49 If I cast Controlled Blink, I usually want to be damn sure I know what my odds are of succeeding right now. 18:09:13 dtsund: no, you actually don't; what you are interested in is whether cblink will kill you if you use it in a situation like that 18:09:22 but you will be in many situations like that in a game 18:10:15 Eronarn: how do the words help with that more than a percentage? 18:10:20 Yes, and the percentage tells me how likely the attempt is to kill me. 18:10:43 ... no, I'm interested in the odds of it working or not in such a case. or at least in my situation. and the words are basically representing "fuzzed" percentages; I can't see how the fuzzing helps a person make a decision. 18:10:44 dtsund: not in a way that is intuitive for people to understand 18:10:46 they give even *less* clue how likely that is to fail after n repetitions 18:11:03 Eronarn: Buh? 18:11:09 Everyone knows what a percentage is. 18:11:22 But if you say "Good" then I have no idea what the hell that means. 18:11:25 Eronarn: the words are not intuitive 18:11:28 SamB: words, if they're chosen well, can be way less misleading than numbers. i don't know if the current set are good - the old ones were really bad 18:11:29 There's nothing intuitive about it. 18:11:32 So completely opaque words are 100% unambiguously better than a number they can compute? 18:11:33 Why don't we just tell the player if a given action will succeed, based on the current state of the RNG? :-P 18:11:50 they aren't chosen very carefully, or thresholded at particularly magical points 18:11:58 also 18:12:03 < dtsund> Everyone knows what a percentage is. 18:12:04 false 18:12:06 bmh: because asking Xom's opinion is like trying to drink the ocean by sipping at it? >_> 18:12:24 Eronarn: If someone doesn't know what a sodding percentage is, they probably don't enjoy playing roguelikes in the first place. 18:12:24 many people know what they think a percentage is, but they don't actually know percentages or how they work 18:12:33 Eronarn: anyone geek enough to play this has a clue 18:12:49 SamB: no 18:12:57 give counterexample now 18:12:59 you are wrong about this; it is a well-known empirical finding 18:13:01 or gtfo 18:13:07 Eronarn: [citation needed] 18:13:11 they did a study of crawl users ? 18:13:28 Eronarn: I've written (small) chunks of crawl and I don't know what the magic words mean. 18:13:51 NOBODY understands those words unless they source-dive or read a spoiler 18:13:55 Aerdan: gigerenzer, gaissmaier, kurz-milcke, schwartz, and woloshin 2008 18:14:05 and that still leaves them a pretty vague idea what's going on 18:14:07 Eronarn: I meant, give me a link I could read right now. 18:14:28 http://www.psychologicalscience.org/journals/pspi/pspi_8_2_article.pdf this is one more about medical stuff but there is a good primer about just how bad people are about interpreting statistics 18:14:48 Okay. It applies to a general population, yes? 18:14:49 [19:13] <+SamB> NOBODY understands those words unless they source-dive or read a spoiler <-- this is the greater problem. There may still be issues with percentages, but you're still creating the issue with the words and denying any amount of transparency 18:15:09 Aerdan: it applies to everyone; even highly intelligent people are subject to the same flaws in interpreting percentages 18:15:34 Eronarn: so we could give the percentage ^10 18:15:43 Eronarn: So, between percentages that people may interpret incorrectly, and adjectives for which there is no objective correct interpretation *at all*, you would take the latter? 18:15:50 (chance of ten successes in a row) 18:15:53 Okay, great. Now please explain to me why you feel that completely opaque words that /nobody/ knows the meaning of is unambiguously and in all cases better than numbers few people will correctly employ. 18:15:54 Eronarn: Physicians are especially bad as statistics ;) 18:16:01 SamB: then it's crazy numbers nobody knows how to interpret 18:16:15 dtsund: there doesn't need to be an 'objective correct interpretation'; it just needs to be more useful, as a tool, than a percentage in helping people make the right choice in a situation 18:16:15 monqy: I just told you what they are 18:16:31 monqy: a percentage squared is still a percentage, you know? 18:16:34 SamB: great; now how will you tell crawl players, and how will they use them? 18:16:44 Eronarn: But if there is no objective correct interpretation, it's kind of impossible for it to be more useful. 18:16:45 Eronarn: And we've established that the current, opaque word-based system is wholly inadequate. Next? 18:16:54 monqy: appropriate column title 18:16:54 Two players will interpret "Great" as being two very different things. 18:16:55 dtsund: ...no it's not 18:17:18 it might be worse for some people, but if it's better overall, it's still better (barring things like different distributions) 18:17:22 * SamB proposes removing entirely 18:17:24 SamB: how will you fit all the words in there. and that still doesn't address how players will make use of it. 18:17:36 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:17:48 anyways, this is kind of missing the point 18:17:55 Good timing. 18:17:58 Eronarn: yes, we KNOW you are missing the point 18:17:59 i'm not saying you shouldn't get rid of words, just that percentages aren't actually good 18:18:07 okay, sure 18:18:08 bmh: I literally laughed out loud. 18:18:10 but they're BETTER 18:18:22 something log-based might even be better 18:18:23 SamB++ 18:18:27 I am against percentages. 18:18:30 dtsund: Want to get beer on Tuesday? 18:18:34 And I'm pretty sure dpeg is, as well. 18:18:38 Sorry, I don't drink... 18:18:48 …with strangers from the internet.n 18:18:55 due: dpeg seems to be against everything, so THAT's no surprise 18:19:00 Well, it's more "at all", but yeah 18:19:02 Eronarn: Nobody is arguing that they /are/ good, only that they are /better than the current system/, which is also not good. 18:19:09 especially if it's a number 18:19:14 Aerdan: actually people are arguing that they are good 18:19:20 and they're wrong, which is why we're even having this discussion 18:19:21 Eronarn: who 18:19:22 SamB: hey, aren't you devs supposed to be friends 18:19:33 'good enough', I will grant you. 'Good', full stop, I will not. 18:19:40 monqy: hey, it's controversial 18:20:09 SamB: < dtsund> Everyone knows what a percentage is. 18:20:43 I think people know what a percentage is better than they psychologically interpret them 18:20:48 they can use MATHS, too, you know! 18:21:03 it's not at all reasonable to expect people to break out pencil and paper to play crawl 18:21:05 He's right. The problem is the framing of the information, not the presentation of the numbers /in/ that information. 18:21:22 Eronarn: The article you pointed us to discusses our inability to translate a raw percentage into a relative or absolute risk. I don't think that's particularly irrelevant. Humans are rotten Bayesians. 18:21:24 Everyone knows that 25% means '25 parts in 100'. 18:21:28 Eronarn: never said anything about paper 18:21:36 I'd still at least provide the option for numbers, if your argument against them is that most people can't understand them well 18:21:37 just a cheap scientific calculator 18:21:47 calc.exe or python.exe or what-have-you 18:21:53 Yeah, you don't need paper for percentages any more than you need them for adjectives. 18:22:04 SamB: it's still unreasonable 18:22:09 SamB: Maybe we should add a calculator to crawl, for computing stuff. Like math. 18:22:30 When I'm casting a spell I want to know "How likely am I to miscast and explode?" 18:22:40 it'll give you a better idea of whatever Eronarn was talking about before, though, than the words! 18:22:54 Eronarn: That's not even the point, and you know it as well as we do. The point is, words are inadquate. Percentages are better. Nobody has said that percentages are 100% (heh) the best option available. 18:22:59 rawrmage: whether there should be an option kind of depends what the main version is because you kind of don't want to let people get more information about the game by enabling a 'cosmetic' option 18:23:04 I actually got killed by the "Summon Elemental" UI yesterday. I summoned an Air Elemental instead of an Earth Elemental and that ended badly. 18:23:09 Eronarn: hmm, this paper seems to be about lies 18:23:34 i noticed some EE die to a hostile air elemental the other day, yeah 18:23:47 MarvinPA: was it bmh 18:23:56 i don't recall 18:23:57 monqy: It was me. 18:23:59 Summon Elemental is problematic. 18:24:00 but perhaps 18:24:07 i would rather it be split in 4, personally 18:24:24 also anyways, i guess nobody read the second link? 18:24:24 I thought that the UI would provide me with a targeting option, but instead it just cast it. And then I died. 18:24:26 In addition, when risks are described as probabilities, people tend to overweight small probabilities and underweight large probabilities. This observation shows up in the “probability weighting function” of Tversky & Kahneman’s Prospect Theory, the dominant behavioral model of gamble evaluations. A representation that leads to misperceptions of underlying probabilities is undesirable. 18:24:27 Idea: If you cast Summon Elemental and casting it on another square would be more in-line with your elemental skills, y/n prompt 18:24:33 which is a totally separate issue from whether people 'understand' probability 18:24:38 Eronarn: you never said this was a disinformation campaign 18:24:39 split summon elemental is better than the status quo, but pretty uglybad 18:24:52 Eronarn: You *need* to overweight the small probabilities in roguelikes. 18:25:13 monqy: It would have been nice to get a warning like "Your Air Magic is at 0, this will probably kill you" 18:25:26 If you have a 98% success rate for CBlink, you still don't freaking cast it if you're in danger of dying right now; you read ?blinking. 18:25:29 that would also work if splitting the spell doesn't happen 18:25:57 if you're in danger of dying right now, surely anything less than perfect isn't good enough 18:26:04 dtsund: You presumably walk across Mass Ave even though it carries a fairly significant chance of death. 18:26:18 bmh: I mean for more than just the interface. It's 4 elemental summoning thingies and it's in plain Summ, with a separate hidden check based on school (and not even consistent accross schools!), for one 18:26:18 which the word interface tells you just fine 18:26:27 bmh: i.e. a huge mess 18:26:31 dtsund: it is a little more complicated than just weighting one and the other. the way it's represented matters - people won't consider 98% vs 99% vs. 99.5% vs 99.9% as all that different even though each step dramatically reduces the chance of failure 18:26:32 dismissing the players as mathematical illiterates just because average doctors and patients are is kind of dumb 18:26:36 dtsund: The solution to that is to just make scrolls have a percentage of failure weight. :p 18:26:38 well if it were split then friendliness could purely depend on spell power 18:26:47 Eronarn: And they shouldn't. 18:26:48 which would clean up some of the messiness 18:26:52 Eronarn: they can't do that now at all, can they ? 18:27:09 SamB: i don't know what the current tiers are; there was talk of making them be based on a log-ish scale 18:27:12 Eronarn: Have I ever mentioned about the time I miscast Haste at Excellent while fighting the royal jelly... and got the paralysis miscast? 18:27:16 i know they got changed but not to what 18:27:33 I told you nobody understood them 18:27:38 SamB: requiring players to be able to interperate percentages (which has nothing to do with mathematical literacy) is unreasonable ("kind of dumb") 18:27:40 Crawl is not a short game. 100% is, in fact, very different from 99.9%. 18:27:53 monqy: it is too mathematical literacy 18:27:58 not at all 18:28:01 anyway yeah, loads of percentages on the spell success sounds like a huge pain 18:28:02 yes it is 18:28:04 it's statistical literacy, which is different 18:28:05 spell success screen* 18:28:06 "mathematical literacy" isn't a thing 18:28:12 monqy: actually it is, it's called numeracy 18:28:19 statistics is an important branch af mathematics 18:28:27 Eronarn: no, that's a different thing 18:28:29 * bmh blows the off-topic whistle. 18:28:29 mathematics is huge 18:28:41 SamB: yes but you can be very mathematically literate (good at numeracy) and completely awful at statistics 18:28:41 okay, okay, so maybe it's a bit vague 18:28:50 * due blows the O_o_O_o whistle. 18:28:58 but I'm pretty sure they don't let you graduate as a math major without it 18:29:16 * dtsund recommends surgery for due to remove that third and fourth eye 18:29:20 or engineering, and hopefully not too many other sciences 18:29:22 SamB: people who have statistical training still make lots of mistakes with interpreting statistics 18:29:29 sure... 18:29:58 MarvinPA: to program or as a display thing? 18:29:59 anyway, mathematical literacy is about understanding things, not being able to conceive of large or tiny numbers! 18:30:09 to interpret as a player 18:30:11 'We reviewed 513 behavioral, systems and cognitive neuroscience articles in five top-ranking journals (Science, Nature, Nature Neuroscience, Neuron and The Journal of Neuroscience) and found that 78 used the correct procedure and 79 used the incorrect procedure' 18:30:19 MarvinPA: Have you ever heard anyone ever, ever, ever complain about NetHack's spell screen? 18:30:30 Eronarn: probably a lot used both! 18:30:31 Okay, so if words and percentages are problematic, what is not? 18:30:38 Coloured textual bar graphs? :D 18:30:40 i don't play nethack so i have no idea 18:30:45 we will have to remove spells entirely 18:30:51 maybe if i did then i would complain 18:30:56 on the plus side, removing spells entirely would go well with removing food entirely 18:31:00 due: that's bad, too, except on DOS 18:31:02 MarvinPA: is elemental summoning even an interesting mechanic, barring interface problems? I'm conflicted over it. On one hand, summoning elementals from media is nifty. On another, it has problems. On yet another, elementals themselves are currently boring. 18:31:12 SamB: ? 18:31:24 Eronarn: Have you played NetHack? 18:31:25 due: one thing that could help is phrasing it in terms of failures, rather than success 18:31:26 (where you can actually get high enough resolution by fiddling with the font tables) 18:31:32 If so, do you find that game's spell screen to be terrible? 18:31:34 SamB: Oh, right. 18:31:43 Eronarn: I think this is also a good idea, re: failure. 18:31:47 monqy: mm, earth ones are kinda cool since LRD 18:31:57 like, 99.5 -> 99.8 looks very similar whereas .5 -> .2 is quite obviously a big improvement 18:32:11 log(chance of failure) would be a good thing to show, somehow 18:32:29 THAT might make sense as a textual graph 18:32:43 Eronarn: Thanks, by the way, for that paper. 18:32:51 Eronarn: I solved that particular problem by fudging success so that >98% is bumped up to flawless, both in display and in practice. 18:32:54 There's generally a reason table-top games express chance of success as chance of /failure/. 18:33:10 dtsund: that is not going to happen in crawl though, so :P 18:33:21 Aerdan: Which seems very practical. 18:33:27 hmm, textual graphs... "FIRE STORM FAILURE RATE = / 18:33:31 MarvinPA: mm 18:33:40 Come to that, NetHack uses fail instead of success too, I'd forgotten. 18:33:44 I was thinking red asterisks starting at the right of the screen 18:34:01 but yeah, fire and water don't even have a gimmick 18:34:13 SamB: i don't think we want to use, for bars, a representation where you don't want any bars 18:34:20 MarvinPA: fire has a useless gimmick!! 18:34:23 because that runs counter to all the other cases where you have bars/dots in the game 18:34:23 Eronarn: we have to 18:34:25 right 18:34:33 if we're doing failure 18:34:52 that's why the bars are RED 18:35:02 and start at the RIGHT 18:35:24 Logarithm is presumably going to give us slightly more reasonable number output... 18:35:53 SamB: you don't have to use the same order for different representations... as long as you choose a reasonable scale for the bars that actually is helpful to players (this is currently not the case for increasing power because of stepdowns and stuff, unless that got fixed) 18:35:54 But then there's the problem of people interpreting logarithmed numbers. And covering them up with words takes us back to square 1 18:36:14 monqy: Hence why we are discussing bars. 18:36:25 (Three crawl developers walk into a bar...?) 18:36:25 ahh. is there enough room for good bars? 18:36:54 monqy: At least 9 characters 18:37:06 hm 18:37:09 * SamB might be confused 18:37:21 note that several of the problems, once corrected, would apply to any of them - we could have a toggle for bars vs. words vs. percentage, as long as those all end up reasonably useful 18:37:22 how big is the power bar? 18:37:40 -!- bmh has left ##crawl-dev 18:37:41 Eronarn: Being able to switch between things would be quite nice, actually 18:37:41 monqy: In tiles or console? 18:37:46 console 18:37:54 also, i kind of like the idea of letting people override the labels in options 18:37:55 I'd support that, so long as all three are present there, sure 18:38:06 like, if there are 7 levels, they can provide 7 terms from low to high, and theirs get used 18:38:20 actually, wait 18:38:27 I was confused 18:38:33 let people define their own labels in the rcfile. DEFINE_SUCCESS_GOOD = Shit 18:38:49 monqy: 24 characters. 18:38:59 perfect is -infinity on log scale... 18:39:07 Only 24? 18:39:22 Unless I miscounted. I didn't feel like looking in the source. 18:39:38 I think it's like 40 characters in tiles. 18:39:55 24 characters power bar seems a bit big relative to a 9 characters success bar 18:40:03 doesn't have to use up the full space 18:40:06 especially since success is often much more important/relevant than power 18:40:50 goodness thats a big bunch of catching up I just did 18:41:09 if hive is removed where will I compulsively keep stuff? 18:41:14 lair 18:41:21 d:27 18:41:22 the floor 18:41:26 jiyva 18:41:27 in deep water 18:41:30 UbAh: your mouth 18:41:41 all these options in the final option 18:41:47 I tried that but the drool trail leads the spawns to me 18:41:54 it's a party in your mouth and jiyva's invited 18:42:23 only is I can leave puddles of shallow water behind me 18:42:46 new race: chipmunkman 18:43:15 can carry twice as many items using mouth cheeks 18:43:39 downside: needs fonts with JIS wide latin alphabet 18:43:41 did we ever do the thing where small races have less slots 18:43:45 that should be a thing 18:43:47 and the means to type it 18:43:56 Eronarn: item stacking makes this totally unfair :( 18:44:04 Eronarn: they have less strength anyway 18:44:28 item weight always seemed *wrong* to me anyway 18:44:53 (it is) 18:46:15 anyway removing the hive, what is going in its place? 18:46:31 UbAh: hive portal vaults 18:46:32 the hive 18:46:46 I always did think hive should be a portal in lair or branch thereof due to flavor 18:47:02 so one less branch? 18:47:28 dont like less of things 18:48:18 sigh 18:48:21 by all means replace it with something more interesting but less to do is just... 18:48:32 UbAh: there will not be less to do 18:48:53 that is how it fits in my head right now 18:49:06 archery branch! kobolds, big kobolds, orcs, centaurs, and at later levels yaktaurs and hill giants, all with advantageous terrain! 18:49:23 also what about the loss of exp (granted not much) before you get to later branches? 18:49:32 "tough" 18:49:39 big deal 18:49:44 um 18:49:51 what part of "there will still be a portal vault" makes no sense? 18:49:59 it will be the last map of hive as a portal vault instead of a level. 18:50:01 UbAh: scum abyss to make up for it 18:50:05 so guaranteed portal? 18:50:09 also, bees don't honestly give much EXP 18:50:11 UbAh: scumming abyss is a thing to do! 18:50:13 yes 18:50:19 I thought it was a lucky one 18:50:23 I thought scumming abyss was a way to die 18:50:36 ok that fits better in my brain 18:50:37 i don't think it needs to be guaranteed even 18:50:50 UbAh: there seems to be some lack of clarity on that point 18:50:52 greatzebu made a patch, should take a look at it 18:51:09 there are a number of patches, I think 18:51:32 yeah, adding the portal vault and berserk bees 18:51:48 The easiest solution is to just replace the Hive entrance vault stairs with portal vaults instead! 18:51:54 as someone who is now on his best run, and never has won I find the hive to be useful not for food but for corpses and another place to go when a big bad closes one branch or another 18:52:12 That means that hte placement of the entrance is still guaranteed, except it is a portal; also, I forget if it was supposed to be untimed or not. 18:52:19 sry I didnt make the most clear point there 18:52:23 due: yes, untimed 18:52:28 that was unambiguous 18:53:10 hanging in hive for to long should spawn bears ;-P 18:53:35 suspiciously red-shirted bears? 18:53:52 with honeypots 18:53:57 we already have the sewer do we really need to add poo? 18:54:09 that's the wrong spelling 18:54:16 oh sry ;-P 18:54:18 -!- alefury has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:55:13 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 18:55:59 but is everyone against another branch or just lack of good ideas? 18:56:16 branches are a lot of work 18:56:23 and? 18:56:35 Chips Challange 18:56:36 there's Spider and Forest, eventually 18:56:57 right, those will materialise at some point 18:57:13 but sadly you can't just say "replace hive with a new branch abracadabra" 18:57:14 UbAh: were you around for Dwarf? A good lesson about branches. 18:57:25 what was Dwarf? 18:57:27 no I dont think i was 18:57:47 been playing for only a couple years or so 18:57:53 it was recent 18:57:58 if I was around I was not good enough to get there 18:58:00 wait 18:58:05 was it in elf? 18:58:17 it was never enabled 18:58:42 some of the content from it was kept but it had many issues and was incomplete and the patcher dematerialised 18:59:09 maybe one day that will also become a new branch, but again, lots of work 18:59:34 that poor patcher 19:01:50 we have hell why not nirvana branch? 19:02:21 not enough holy monsters/creatures 19:02:22 yet 19:02:55 would be nice opportunity to introduce other cultures holy creatures 19:03:21 they're gettign to holy creatures slowly 19:03:27 or as we were talking about before due, xibalba 19:05:21 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:05:26 ooh, xibalba! 19:05:31 * SamB remembers that from the IDM 19:05:48 IDM? 19:06:01 Inform Designer's Manual 19:06:45 ok the womenfolk are demanding I come eat with them. I'll probably come back after missing all the good conversation 19:13:22 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 19:15:26 Xibalba <3 19:36:54 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:54:18 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 20:05:59 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- It'll be on slashdot one day...] 20:12:44 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 20:13:49 -!- st_ has quit [] 20:29:11 Does backspace do anything? 20:29:56 outside of typing into the search box and annitations, I don't think so. 20:30:51 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.7/20100713130626]] 20:31:25 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:31:31 I was thinking about making it be interpreted the same as ^H (i.e., disarm the trap to the left) in not-those cases... 20:32:41 as a joke, or what..? 20:32:49 hm? 20:32:52 I agree with evilmike 20:32:58 if you want a key like that, probably better to make it "disarm nearest trap" and use something like autofight 20:33:02 I'm being told in #crawl-dev that some systems treat them as identical 20:33:20 I think they did in ancient times, I dont know if anything modern does that 20:33:21 Er, #crawllight 20:34:30 * dtsund shrugs 20:35:07 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 20:35:12 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 20:35:12 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 20:36:45 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 20:39:09 hmm, actually seems like ^H and backspace are the same thing still in every console I try (I just assumed they became different for some reason). Just used it to disarm a trap left of me 20:41:30 hitting bakcspace and it's unknown command 20:42:09 (it doing a macro but I cleared that for the test). ^H does swinging at nothing as it should, and interestingly, control-backspace does swinging at nothing tii 20:42:33 er, too 20:42:58 also, it was doing, what 20:43:16 or: I had it bound to a macro, but I cleared that 20:43:38 monqy: I missed your explanation of why traps should go. Let me guess -- they rarely pose a significant threat and they're tedious? 20:44:05 something like that 20:44:23 except the threat part isn't very accurate 20:44:24 I more or less agree. In my recollection I've only lost one non-trivial character to a trap. 20:44:27 I agree with that point 20:44:31 it's more that they're uninteresting and tedious 20:44:45 they rarely trigger in interesting conditions 20:44:48 DD Necro, stepped on a blade or axe trap at low health. 20:45:00 The only reason I haven't already removed traps from Light on an experimental basis is that it'd break vaults from hell to breakfast 20:45:05 death by stepping on traps is lame 20:45:14 I've said before: I like shafts, teleport traps (sometimes), zot traps (when monsters use them), and rarely mechanical traps but generally only in vaults when you know monsters will be around 20:45:18 what's interesting is when the presence of traps affects things that aren't the traps themselves 20:45:20 ??lg 20:45:21 listgame[1/6]: !lg command displays info about past games. The manual is available here: http://github.com/greensnark/dcss_henzell/raw/master/docs/listgame.txt 20:45:23 those are all the interesting uses of traps imo. I'm being a bit charitible here 20:45:45 so, how come backgrounds/species with no viable combos aren't ALWAYS shown in dark grey? 20:45:48 evilmike: Removing the ability of monsters to use Zot traps against you was literally the first change I made in Light. 20:45:54 haha 20:45:56 !lg bh DDNe 20:45:56 27. bh the Grave Robber (L3 DDNe), blasted by Jessica (nerve-wracking pain) on D:2 on 2011-10-03, with 116 points after 1773 turns and 0:07:12. 20:46:12 I love how monsters do that, it gives a bit of a "hostile terrain" effect when fighting enemies 20:46:16 I like shafts, teletraps, zot traps (when monsters use them), and mechanical traps only when they have a substantial effect on things other than just your hp from stepping on the trap 20:46:37 like if you're backing up from some monsters and you step on a trap that knocks off half your hp you have to reconsider things 20:46:38 I hate shafts. 20:46:48 I think shafts are by far the best trap type 20:46:51 I hate that deities don't give XP for kills by your traps 20:47:11 I find it spoilery and tedious, as you have to just abuse their pathfinding to make them walk around them or else leave LOS of the trap 20:47:14 gah. lg syntax. Can someone ask it for the highest scoring game where a trap killed me? 20:47:32 !hs bh ktyp=~trap 20:47:32 3. bh the Necromancer (L11 DDNe), worshipper of Makhleb, killed by triggering a blade trap on D:13 on 2010-04-10, with 12670 points after 23923 turns and 2:42:48. 20:47:34 !lg bh DDNe max=xl 20:47:34 27. bh the Necromancer (L11 DDNe), worshipper of Makhleb, killed by triggering a blade trap on D:13 on 2010-04-10, with 12670 points after 23923 turns and 2:42:48. 20:47:47 NINJAS 20:47:51 That was a discouraging game. 20:48:09 I died a lot to traps on my spriggan divers; it was annoying 20:48:26 *divers*? 20:48:27 Not as bad as the game where I was a HOPr with an amulet or rSlow and some huge club of berserking 20:48:42 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:48:53 SamB: You can do fairly well diving the dungeon as a spriggan and stabbing the first centaur you meet. 20:50:04 I play divers in a few different styles. One of the styles is about getting as far down as it can at xl1. Another is getting down as far as it can as quickly as it can regardless of level. I also promise myself after hitting D:27 to die to mnoleg but I haven't yet been able to pull that one off 20:50:28 !lg monqy max=score xl=1 20:50:33 polymorph mnoleg into something more dangerous 20:50:36 hehehe 20:50:45 bmh: I do most of my diving on squarelos 20:50:53 oh right. 20:51:02 !lg squarelos xl=1 max=lvl 20:51:03 (sqaurelos > roundlos) 20:51:03 368. monqy the Sneak (L1 SpAs), slain by a hobgoblin (a +0,+0 club) on D:3 on 2011-08-13, with 136 points after 352 turns and 0:00:36. 20:51:04 423. squarelos the Charlatan (L1 SpAr), shot by a centaur warrior (runed arrow) on D:20 on 2011-05-14, with 67 points after 1598 turns and 0:06:05. 20:51:14 20!? 20:51:21 and for speed: 20:51:30 !lm monqy br.end=d min=dur 20:51:48 Are you iron robin'ing it? 20:51:50 !lm * br.end=d xl=1 20:52:02 bmh: nah 20:52:14 bmh: but sometimes I do play ironman games on squarelos 20:52:29 22. [2011-08-13] monqy the Unseen (L10 SpAs) reached level 27 of the Dungeon on turn 3618. (D:27) 20:52:29 1. [2008-08-07] syllogism the Ducker (L1 SpTh) reached level 27 of the Dungeon on turn 57802. (D:27) 20:52:35 oh it doesn't show the time? 20:52:38 !lm monqy br.end=d min=dur x=dur 20:52:41 22. [2011-08-13] [dur=0:12:36 [756]] monqy the Unseen (L10 SpAs) reached level 27 of the Dungeon on turn 3618. (D:27) 20:52:50 (that was after getting banished by a zot trap, too) 20:53:05 Is there anything inherently wrong with a dungeon level accessible only by hatches? 20:53:21 would it break interlevel travel? 20:53:29 with regard to removing traps, that's at least one area where dpeg will agree with you :P 20:53:57 Wensley: hey, doesn't dpeg like cloud traps? I dislike those. I also dislike item destruction. 20:54:02 mechanical traps, at least (because shafts are The Best Thing In Crawl) 20:54:19 ah, yes. it puzzles me a bit why mechanical traps aren't gone already 20:54:26 monqy: I'm thinking of a crystal stairwell with six stairs 20:54:35 hm? 20:54:41 six crystal staircases, all shatterable with LRD 20:59:52 wait.. spriggan can eat meat now??? 21:00:00 what, they can? 21:00:08 "You see here a meat ration {edible when very hungry}." 21:00:11 or is meat just inscribed like that 21:00:22 because I know mummies are bugged to get inscriptions saying they can eat things 21:00:28 like I think someone found an edible cloak as a mummy 21:00:29 guess it's just a bugged inscription 21:00:35 That's wonderful. 21:00:37 cloaks are tasty 21:02:08 If you're a person made out of bandages, they're probably downright delicious. 21:03:06 !learn add bad_ideas blade traps of distortion 21:03:07 bad ideas[3481/3481]: blade traps of distortion 21:03:20 ??bad_ideas[3480] 21:03:20 bad ideas[3480/3481]: MarvinPA!! 21:03:27 ??bad_ideas[3479] 21:03:27 bad ideas[3479/3481]: rename amulet of gourmand to amulet of the mildly obese 21:04:03 hey[21:57] > The Kayak Experience: After the second visitor death in the park's history in 1982 occurred at this ride, it was closed permanently. It was an imitation whitewater course that used submerged electric fans to agitate the water above. Frequently the kayaks got stuck or tipped over, and people had to get out of them to remedy the situation.[6] 21:04:03 [21:58] > Surf Hill: This ride, common to other water parks at the time, allowed patrons to slide down a water-slick sloped surface on mats into small puddles, until they reached a foam barrier after an upslope at the end. Barriers between lanes were minimal, and people frequently collided with each other on the way down, or at the end. 21:04:03 [21:58] > The seventh lane was known as the "back breaker," due to its special kicker two-thirds of the way down intended to allow jumps and splashdowns into a larger puddle.[15] Employees at the park used to like eating at a nearby snack bar with a good view of the attraction, since it was almost guaranteed that they could see some serious injuries, lost bikini tops, or both.[15] Mountain Creek kept this attraction op 21:04:25 uh. 21:04:29 wat 21:04:34 monqy: hey, I called that "preliminary" for a reason 21:04:34 ...wrong channel. 21:04:47 Sincere apologies. (it's about an amusement part in NJ called Action Park.) 21:05:01 SamB: hm? 21:05:12 the commit that added those "inscriptions" 21:05:24 ah 21:05:27 and I said it probably didn't work right for inedible stuff, too ;-) 21:05:28 (I can't imagine being amused in New Jersey) 21:05:56 bmh: well, the park killed six people and injured apparently thousands 21:05:56 so 21:05:57 <_< 21:05:57 !learn add bad_ideas A New Jersey branch 21:05:57 bad ideas[3482/3482]: A New Jersey branch 21:06:09 yeah, another person got inscriptions on an orange and some chunks (possibly other stufF) as a mummy too 21:06:56 everything food item gets them, so far 21:07:25 I was contemplating fixing it, but kilobyte said it was like polishing a turd... 21:07:34 ++kilobyte 21:17:41 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 21:18:09 cloaks are a food item? 21:18:10 hmm 21:18:16 brb, off to have cloak for lunch 21:18:37 due: what ? 21:18:45 you saw that on a cloak? 21:18:56 no, i skimmed the scrollback and someone said something about cloaks 21:19:03 i didn't read particularly hard 21:19:50 (reading is hard!) 21:20:07 new unrand: cloak of bacon 21:20:37 {edible when worn} 21:20:45 Pikel's "slaves" thank you for freedom even if only one remains (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4711) by smock 21:20:49 being hit by fire attacks will gradually increase the enchantment, until it starts to burn 21:21:11 the higher the enchantment, the higher the satiation you get 21:21:14 portable food, but harpies can steal it with ease. 21:23:10 -!- raskol has joined ##crawl-dev 21:24:28 -!- [Hanged_Man] has joined ##crawl-dev 21:25:36 -!- pbwxm has joined ##crawl-dev 21:27:44 on closer inspection it looks like marvinpa's edible-inscribed cloak was due to his own mucking about :( 21:30:27 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 21:30:41 Wensley: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Skin#Cloaks 21:31:36 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:31:46 beaten to the punch 21:31:52 now bacon cloaks are passe 21:31:58 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:32:01 I will have to cancel my youtube series 21:47:11 -!- pbwxm has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:05:38 -!- raskol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:06:05 -!- raskol has joined ##crawl-dev 22:07:10 -!- [Hanged_Man] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:10:56 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 22:19:20 ^h is something I have to use every day at work with some old solaris systems using ksh 22:20:07 the backspace key is not mapped to it properly so yea for fun, when your hand is used to using it 22:24:33 -!- Pingas has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:32:09 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 22:38:50 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:44:37 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 22:46:08 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:49 No one liked my tentacles. 22:51:29 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 22:52:38 -!- UbAh has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:54:06 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 22:54:28 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:56:17 Rotten contam chunks {edible when starving} inedible (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4712) by Pteriforever 23:05:46 -!- raskol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:06:32 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:06:35 -!- raskol has joined ##crawl-dev 23:09:03 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:13:08 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 23:21:06 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:42:03 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:54:40 -!- Brannock has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]