00:01:09 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:08:59 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1117-gdcf5694 (32) 00:12:15 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:16:20 -!- Ryak has left ##crawl-dev 00:53:41 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 00:57:15 -!- Fyren has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:58:55 -!- Fyren has joined ##crawl-dev 01:02:52 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Like it? Visit #hydrairc on EFNet] 01:03:13 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 01:03:59 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 01:04:42 -!- mikee_ has quit [Client Quit] 01:06:35 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:20:21 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:22:24 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 02:20:15 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:28:34 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 02:44:43 galehar: the food reform seems to have forgotten about saprovores, except for a slight bonus in one place 02:46:52 right, they only get a little bonus with rotten meat. They were supposed to handle brown chunks better too. 02:46:54 will fix 02:47:09 Also, I haven't applied the changes to species yet 02:49:49 I see that ghouls got carnivore 3 -- which means they cannot use bread for nutrition anymore, contrary at least to their description, and get loads more nutrition from chunks than they did before. 02:50:02 this might be argued for, though 02:50:40 not so much for trolls -- they're supposed to be eat everything edible, caring about quantity not quality (as long as living creatures can eat it -- so no CE_ROT unlike ghouls) 02:53:28 trolls have sapro 2, hunger 3 and gourmand. They are supposed to get sapro 3 and carni 3 02:54:24 centaur is supposed to change their hunger 1 against herbi 1, except that they are hunger 2 not 1 02:54:43 that's what I'm talking about -- it would give trolls a strong preference and a strong bonus to meat 02:55:22 rather than requiring huge quantities of edible food without much regard what 02:57:48 should centaur keep 1 level of hunger to go with their new herbi 1 mutation? 02:59:43 btw, the whole reform is a big boost to Sp since they have no additional penalty but get much more nutrition from their food. So I wouldn't be worried about them regarding hive removal. 02:59:44 might work if you want them to remain a food-challenged race 03:00:06 galehar: compared to what they got before? 03:00:36 kilobyte: yes. 03:00:38 I see the nutrition multipliers are brokenly high / low 03:02:05 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnMbfunDtqPCdHlFSmZzQVd1bE82ZnBPZnRoOGdHSkE&hl=en_US#gid=1 03:02:39 also, any non-clean chunks have the same penalty 03:03:12 I'd make poison-contam ones get -2, and CE_ROT ones -3 (ie, not edible in most cases) 03:04:19 yeah, good idea. Ryak simplified a lot of things, there's still some adjustment to be made 03:05:35 uh oh... herbi 3 now gets twice as much from bread as before :p 03:05:52 also, sickness is suppose to depend on preference (20% at 1, 100% at 0), but for now, it still only depends on chunk type. 03:06:02 same for carni 3 and meat 03:07:11 I'll probably reduce that a bit 03:07:58 bonus for permafood were 4/3, 5/3 and 2 in Vintermann's design. Ryak uses 1.5, 2, 2.5. 03:09:38 if we followed realism, it wouldn't be ever >1 03:10:54 Ogre's sapro 1 is replaced by carni 1 03:12:10 the hive is being removed? 03:12:49 s/is being/has been/ 03:13:25 and Spider is still not in yet 03:13:28 hmmm i must get a new build of .10, i'm sure its still in the build i've been playing but its a week or two old 03:13:35 but well, there are other priorities like dwarvicide 03:13:41 and it has the cobweb level... 03:14:07 a5tp: if you transfer a character, you still get the Hive, even if you didn't find the entrance yet 03:14:16 no, it was a new char 03:14:22 not from .9 03:14:48 it's a lvl 19 MeBe with a huge amount of honeycomb/royal jelly from a hive run 03:14:55 Sep 26, barely over a week ago 03:15:03 and i've encountered the level full of cobwebs with the same cahr 03:15:31 crawl_tiles-0.10-a0-873-g5f992f5 is what i've been playing 03:15:35 the cobwebs are a test for Spider so we get bug reports on a small-scale sample 03:15:37 maybe i just stumbled in between the changes 03:15:50 ah well, no bugs, but i didn't really stay long there 03:16:02 Hive removal is 0.10-a0-922-g1153542, yeah 03:16:20 there are new changes every day, so you'll always be in between changes ;) 03:16:54 for a stable game, try Nethack! 03:17:30 s/stable/undeveloped 03:17:34 (or official releases of Crawl) 03:17:54 but they're musty and covered in cobwebs in all senses but literal 03:18:00 standard vanilla nethack 3.4.3 has horrible bugs, including crash bugs 03:18:21 although less than official releases of crawl ;-D 03:18:51 i've already spent years on casual nethack play, have been enjoying crawl for the last 18-24 months too much to go back to nethack 03:19:16 bhaak: do you mean the 0.9.0 disaster or releases in general? 03:20:28 lol 03:20:59 kilobyte: wasn't 0.8.0(?) not also bug-ridden? so it's almost a tradition by now ;) 03:23:05 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:26:15 bhaak: glancing at 0.8.0..0.8.1, I don't see anything severe 03:28:58 in fact, the only crashes are: sometimes with monster Injury Mirror (possible in a Zig level), and on ghosts with negative AC 03:29:41 hmm, i though you could see it on the blog. or maybe i'm misremembering and it was only in here where I got the impression that some crash bug was found only hours after a release. it's been a while and i haven't slept much so i'm not sure IIRC 03:33:51 -!- mumra has quit [Quit: offski] 03:35:13 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:09:55 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 04:14:50 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 04:44:28 hmmm 04:44:34 TO GREEN ANGEL TOWER! 04:44:40 or rather, to recode cherubs! 04:45:56 * kilobyte splashes a bucket of pink paint onto due's tower. 04:47:36 https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs/master/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/holy/seraph.png 04:49:42 not enough eyes 04:49:46 and seraphs have six wings ;) 04:50:48 a bit unclear in the tile that there are six, but I never claimed I can draw my way out of a wet paper bag 04:52:30 (the idea here is to show a crowd of as many angel types on the holy level as possible, not to add redundancy to rest of the game) 04:59:29 i dont think its necessary to stay that close to christian mythology. regarding number of eyes and wings. 04:59:42 or judean mythology i guess 05:00:02 even though the different kinds of angels are one of the cooler (and weirder) parts 05:01:04 the tiles have to fit the description of course 05:01:16 i think the weirdest parts are the discussions sparked by jesus' foreskin, including those modern ones that go conspiracy bananas with cloning jesus and stuff 05:01:32 whaaaaaat? 05:02:58 jesus was a jew, jews get circumcised. finally, jesus ascended. what happened to his foreskin? 05:03:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Prepuce 05:04:32 bhaak: rotfl 05:05:14 unfortunately, wikipedia doesn't have the story about those people that argued that his foreskin ascended separately at the same time as he did but got stuck halfway into heaven and turned into the rings of Saturn 05:05:26 but you find it if you google for it 05:05:28 hah 05:05:43 alefury: we have a ... slight attention to source material detail 05:06:15 alefury: we try to be as correct and in-line with source material as possible 05:09:48 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: bye] 05:20:01 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:20:05 -!- ais523 has quit [Changing host] 05:20:05 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:33:06 okaaaay 05:33:19 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Organize your IRC] 05:34:41 ooh gilas are gone? 05:43:50 someone though they're in stoner colours 05:46:52 due: why stick close to the source? christianity and judaism are not in crawl, and TSO is not the christian/judean god (there are some parallels). i dont see the point, crawl is its own world. 05:49:08 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 05:50:32 alefury: for exactly the reason I stated? 05:50:53 we stick closely to the source material where it suits us 06:02:14 hm, its cool enough. might offend some people, though. 06:03:03 so? 06:03:22 probably not a lot of those play crawl, and the real nutjobs have more sacrilegious games to worry about, so not a problem 06:03:46 well, they can jus tnot play crawl if it bothers theem that much 06:04:43 won't somebody please think of the children? 06:06:15 "won't someone please think of the christians?" 06:06:24 same difference, i suppose! ;) 06:09:32 it seems the bible is quite obsessed with eyes 06:09:56 god just wants to see yo! 06:09:56 most of the angels sound really creepy 06:10:43 Spriggan can wield staff with shield, so maybe message needs changing? (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4683) by nubinia 06:12:52 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:13:22 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:13:44 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 06:26:49 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 06:27:03 The guaranteed shops in Orc 4 can be mimics. 06:27:03 Is this intentional? 06:31:44 well, they have not been specifically excluded 06:32:02 maybe they should 06:32:07 03galehar * rc6ffd8058ca6 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Fix chunk prompt not given at proper satiation level (#4678). 06:32:14 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:32:17 03galehar * r8bf89aab1654 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Increase preference penalty for rot inducing and poison-contaminated chunks. 06:32:17 03galehar * r66a61ea02333 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Tone down the permafood bonus multiplier. 06:32:18 03galehar * r3ffba0ab4769 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc: Food reform part 2: species mutations 06:32:18 03galehar * r289ffa941741 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Don't perform satiation check for vampires (#4680). 06:32:18 03galehar * r845a2ce7bb31 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Better bonus to saprovorous. 06:32:28 but I don't think so. 06:32:45 does anyone know when windows builds happen? 06:33:44 tri-weekly, I think 06:33:44 alefury: if you have a specific reason, it's a matter of running a single command (and waiting a bit) 06:33:48 1, 3, 5, 6, 7. 06:33:48 well, id like to play with the food reform later, but its not urgent or anything, i can wait a day 06:34:41 it's a slow time of the day, a bit of extra load on CDO won't hurt. I'm pressing the button. 06:34:48 okay 06:35:33 yeah. More offline testing before food reform goes live on CDO is not exactly something we can turn down. 06:36:04 agree 06:36:10 Er, I agree! 06:36:46 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 06:37:22 I haven't bother to give the new mutations to transferred games. 06:37:42 Is there a command to list how many Tr games there is on CDO? 06:38:01 because they are about to get screwed 06:38:08 current, or ever? 06:38:20 hmm, is there a !lm for starting the game? 06:38:30 there should be something 06:38:33 if so, you could compare started games to finished games to work out currently 06:40:22 ais523: current 06:47:10 !lm * s=type 06:47:48 hm, where's sequell? 06:48:10 2416839 milestones for *: 1173601x uniq, 524672x br.enter, 178592x br.end, 169579x ghost, 125410x god.worship, 65301x rune, 36674x zig.enter, 28290x abyss.exit, 26640x abyss.enter, 25822x zig, 24641x shaft, 8766x death, 7718x god.renounce, 5799x orb, 3978x god.maxpiety, 3739x god.mollify, 2648x monstrous, 1696x crash, 1636x uniq.ban, 1185x zig.exit, 431x ghost.ban, 13x orb.destroy, 8x 06:48:56 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1123-g845a2ce 06:50:47 there is no br.enter for d:1 06:52:39 it's a sort of a compat break anyway... it'd be good to convert this, minor tags are cheap 06:53:14 kilobyte: you mean regarding mutations? 06:53:43 kilobyte: I won't be able to do it before late tonight, so if you want to, go ahead. 06:55:27 -!- galehar_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:56:04 sure, ok 06:56:24 gah 06:56:29 tooo sleeepy 06:56:45 i have saved my stuf locally but not gpot enough finished to commit tonight 06:59:13 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:12:37 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:31:49 maybe Troll should be sapro 2 instead of 3. Giving them bonus to brown and rotten chunks is a bit weird. 07:35:41 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:36:47 galehar: I commented in the commit, it's on a branch because I hate three parts of the changes 07:37:16 (CIA doesn't announce first push to a new branch) 07:46:57 kilobyte: good point. So, revert the change to Ko, and for Tr, give them carni 2, sapro 2 and give them back gourmand. OK? 07:53:45 I'd prefer trolls to be neutral with respect to meat-vs-plants, but yeah, could work 08:03:20 with the nerf to gourmand, it's not possible to stuff yourself without either carni or herbi. Allowing Tr to do that would require giving them something unique in the new system (gourmand 2 maybe?) 08:04:03 sounds good, yeah 08:07:14 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 08:09:02 so what's the use of gourmand then? 08:09:27 it gives a +1 preference to chunks, and still protects from sickness. 08:10:26 we could even remove carni from trolls and give them a gourmand 3. That would be very close (identical?) to previously. 08:11:49 beh, the whole "reform" seems to hard-code the ability to eat with nutrition multiplier 08:12:17 like, gourmand is for almost all purposes identical to carnivorousness now 08:12:22 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 08:12:31 (just doesn't affect permafood) 08:20:44 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 08:32:15 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:34:07 03kilobyte * r56bc8b5a0496 10/crawl-ref/source/ (food.cc ng-setup.cc): Make meat-plant bias for Ko and Tr make a bit more sense again. 08:34:17 03kilobyte * r8853420b2144 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mutation.cc mutation.h tag-version.h tags.cc): Adjust saves from before the food reform. 08:34:17 03kilobyte * rb88298383b3e 10/crawl-ref/source/output.cc: Show that innate gourmand is better than the amulet of '%'. 08:34:41 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 08:34:56 Cheers. Can only be present from 5pm onwards. 08:34:56 dpeg: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 08:35:14 Is something horribly broken? 08:38:04 back later 08:40:36 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 08:57:43 The eating of corpses (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4684) by nogglebeak 09:01:31 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 09:02:00 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:02:24 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:21:21 Good news, everyone! 09:22:53 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 09:23:07 Since I pulled the DEPGEN rule into that conditional, ccache has not reported any more instances of "unsupported compiler option" 09:33:46 interesting that line_reader appears to use Emacs-style keybindings... 09:34:23 so does bash... 09:35:22 even Firefox used to until they decided to parrot MSIE keys instead 09:35:36 oh, they did? 09:35:41 * SamB hasn't tried it much lately 09:35:49 what version did they do that in? 09:36:16 (did they drop the less-style search, too?) 09:36:41 '/'? Fortunately it's still on. 09:36:55 anyway, I was only surprised because you guys seem to all hate emacs ;-) 09:36:58 but since AFAIK neither MSIE nor Chrome has that they'll remove it soon :p 09:37:19 well, that probably depends on if they want the key for something else? 09:38:01 anyway, I've gotten pretty used to Ctrl-F in Chrome 09:38:38 it's one of upsides of Firefox they have not yet removed in their quest to follow all misfeatures of Chrome 09:38:53 I like Emacs, but my opinions aren't exactly popular here 09:39:09 including, say, crashing to desktop on closing a tab if it's the only one currently 09:39:27 fortunately in Firefox this misfeature can still be worked around 09:39:40 worked around, or turned off? 09:39:49 needs an extension :( 09:39:53 oh 09:40:12 they still have about:prefs, though, right? 09:40:23 I don't think they'll manage to ditch that... 09:41:09 someone in Chrome's team decided to have it work differently than in every other program in existence that has multiple documents 09:41:16 (or that they really have any desire to do so, though they may ditch many of the choices there) 09:41:22 and mindlessly the Mozilla team copied that 09:41:31 (sorry, got to go) 09:41:37 kilobyte: well, it kind of makes sense for the window to disappear 09:41:57 but it would be better if there was, like, a notification icon or something and it didn't close the app until you said so 09:42:13 I mean, in Chrome's UI 09:42:26 with the tabs on top and all 09:42:35 if the tabs aren't on top, no sense does it make 09:44:55 now why the heck HOME not coming through right in crawl :-( 09:45:49 Also ^H... 09:45:55 Stupid terminals. 09:46:12 hmm, it's sort of weird to be crosstraining a skill but the skill it's training from is hidden due to being currently untrainable 09:46:40 MarvinPA: quite 09:46:59 MarvinPA: I thought galehar changed that... 09:47:07 perhaps it's just not up on cdo then 09:47:23 or is that skill below level 1? 09:47:30 ah yes, "always display known skills" 09:47:39 cdo's just a bit out of date, things are changing so fast :P 09:47:43 I don't know what he meant by known 09:47:54 I didn't really play with it like that 09:48:27 known means skill level >= 1 09:48:29 so, did you see what I did to the ?V screen? 09:48:35 galehar: I suspected it might 09:48:49 is being up a whole level needed for crosstraining? 09:49:19 SamB: no but wow, do we really need "interface and control changes introduced in 0.4 and 0.5" to be displayed there? 09:49:37 MarvinPA: that was my next question 09:49:40 heh 09:50:08 I think it would be better to show the rest of the changelog for 0.x there, instead 09:50:15 where 0.x is the current version 09:50:20 i agree! i guess that's just a server-side thing though 09:50:28 hmm? 09:50:55 oh wait no 09:51:02 i'm mixing up ?V and v in the menu 09:51:09 It looks just the same here 09:51:11 which is totally different and i'd be wrong if i was referring to that too, anyway 09:52:21 ^H comes in as character 8 (BS) here ... 09:53:02 * SamB duplicates his PuTTY session and fires up tack 09:54:30 * SamB wishes Debian's terminfo database maintainers would get rid of the terminal-resizing aspects of the init string(s) in the putty entry/entries... 09:55:43 I wonder if telling them that it caused tack to think the terminal was a different size than it was would convince them? 09:57:08 yet again, tack sees different keys than crawl :-( 10:02:12 Noticed there wasn't any tentacles tile for the doll. 10:02:19 (When using beastly appendage) 10:02:34 Maybe this would be useful? 10:02:35 http://i.imgur.com/XB4jN.png 10:03:35 Pingas: it's recommended that you upload it to mantis 10:03:39 ??mantis 10:03:39 mantis[1/1]: The replacement for sourceforge, mantis can be found at http://crawl.develz.org/mantis 10:03:52 uh, well, that's a slight overstatement I think ;-) 10:04:01 but anyway, that's the right URL 10:04:03 Alrighty. Will do. 10:04:25 set the type to the appropriate one, since obviously this is an upload and not a bug report per-se 10:05:00 anyway, this way we will most likely actually remember to process your donation :-) 10:07:00 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 10:07:13 I see. I did some helmet tiles earlier on, where the process was mostly taking place in the development-channel (discussing the tiles with feedback, then sending the finished product to a lovely developer) 10:07:25 !learn edit mantis[1] s/sourceforge/our sourceforge issue trackers/ 10:07:26 mantis[1/1]: The replacement for our sourceforge issue trackers, mantis can be found at http://crawl.develz.org/mantis 10:07:41 Pingas: well, that might work if there was someone about who had a clue what to do with them! 10:07:41 But I'll use Mantis from now on. 10:07:59 Haha. 10:08:28 but I just didn't want your tile to get lost to, say, my own bad memory 10:11:49 Pingas: if you're able to compile crawl, it would be better to edit the source tiles instead of a screenshot 10:11:57 anyway, it's certainly not a bad idea to show what you're working on here (and/or on ##crawl too?) if feedback is what you seek 10:12:26 you don't need to add a new tile, but you could for example have modified the claws tile in this case 10:12:35 see https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs/master/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/player/gloves/claws.png 10:12:56 edlothiol: I already have a properly positioned 32x32 transparent version, the screenshot was just to illustrate how it would look on a proper background. 10:13:07 just don't expect us to be reliable 10:13:13 Pingas: ah, that's great 10:14:23 certainly looks nice 10:14:52 indeed 10:15:51 Went to features -> brainstorm -> tiles -> missing tiles and saw that the tentacle tile is needed, but trying to figure out exactly where I'm supposed to write the proposition. :P 10:16:05 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 10:17:00 yeah, mantis is the proper place so it doesn't get lost, but announcing it here additionally is of course also good ;) 10:17:33 Pingas: go back to the URL Henzell gave us and click "report issue" or whatever 10:17:53 Alright, and select upload: graphics instead of "bug report" or so, aye? 10:18:09 In Religion screen, "(cost)" heading and listed costs don't line up for wide screens (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4685) by rriegs 10:18:26 Pingas: yeah, something like that 10:19:10 Alrighty. And if it gets added, I'll go back to the "missing tiles" page and mark it as done, I suppose. 10:20:05 I think that might actually be our job ;-) 10:20:25 you could link to the issue from there now, though 10:22:19 that way, the next person looking to make a tile from that page will see you've done a nice one already and will do one of something else ;-) 10:23:32 hmmm. 10:27:20 When uploading a graphic, is there anything besides the 32x32 transparent image that I should upload? 10:27:44 Because I have no experience with compiling or patching or all that developer-stuffsies. 10:28:12 Toadstools are extremely short-lived (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4686) by rriegs 10:28:24 I'm sure we can handle that 10:28:35 Is there anything else you have prepared? 10:28:50 the image is all that's necessary 10:29:34 Nothing as of yet. Will likely continue with the missing graphics list if I don't fail. 10:29:34 the screenshot showing it in action is of course nice as a motivation ;) 10:29:40 Sometimes it's useful to have the pieces from which a tile is constructed rather than just the finished tile, but it doesn't look like yours has any pieces ;-) 10:29:55 yeah, quite so 10:32:19 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4643 is a (rather overwhelmingly good) example of what I'm talking about wrt. pieces, and I don't fully understant the image myself (it could use some more explanations ;-) 10:33:13 Tentacle Doll Tile (beastly appendage) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4687) by Pingas 10:34:32 SamB: I see. Or layers, rather. 10:34:51 Shape, texture, color. 10:35:34 Oooh, first mantis submission up. Hopefully it's correctly done. :d 10:35:58 yes, it's perfect 10:36:18 I'm a-going to ask for more details on that other one, since I don't quite understand how it works ;-). 10:39:32 * SamB wonders if that will look as good on all races? 10:39:44 yes, if it fits, it will fit for all races 10:40:08 that ... sounds odd 10:40:11 All races' hands are positioned the same, right? 10:40:31 I wouldn't expect them all to be drawn the same size :-) 10:40:34 yeah, they are even all mostly the same size 10:40:42 probably exactly for that reason 10:41:20 Oh, well, I guess if Link can stand being as wide as he is tall, these guys can stand being paradoxically the same size 10:41:46 compare: 10:41:49 https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs/master/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/player/base/spriggan_m.png 10:41:54 https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs/master/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/player/base/ogre_m.png 10:42:07 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:42:24 I'm pretty sure it fits (positioning) on all races, although I haven't seen how they look aesthetically on any other than sludge elf so far. 10:42:58 Though I didn't worry too much about that. 10:45:23 obviously this won't work for octopodes ;-) 10:45:31 hm... the tentacles mutation still allows wielding weapons, doesn't it? 10:46:11 well, that's still subject to change, I think? 10:47:03 Right now they only disallow gloves, I believe. 10:47:44 so the tentacles doll tile would still have to fit with the weapon tile 10:47:46 As for the octopodes: They will receive a spike on their tentacle when using beastly appendage with only tentacle-slot available, I'm pretty sure I read in the missing tiles-section. 10:48:06 yeah, octopodes have tentacles 3 anyway 10:48:24 oh, I gues it isn't then 10:48:30 octopodes kind of need wielding 10:48:47 I think, at least 10:49:10 another option is to use different tiles for unarmed vs. armed 10:49:28 with, say, the tentacles coiled around for wielding? 10:50:30 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 10:51:43 hi guys 10:53:15 I posted some work on hive reform to mantis--if anyone is interested, it could use some playtesting and especially some more maps 10:53:53 galehar: skills which you have enabled but at 0 are shows as darkgray... this doesn't make sense as they're selectable now 10:56:21 hmm, have i messed up my config somehow, or are statues no longer being autoexcluded? 10:57:02 MarvinPA: I noticed this as well, so not just yours 10:57:04 seems to happen locally as well, including roxanne 10:57:23 the plain "statue" still works, but everything else (ocs, silver statue) seems not to get an exclusion 10:57:41 in 10:58:04 galehar: I changed this in tiles (upon adding focused / mastered tiles), if you want it grayed please change back. And if it's indeed an omission, there's console... 10:58:06 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 10:58:08 03kilobyte * rff184ccee099 10/crawl-ref/source/libunix.cc: Remove an obsolete comment. 10:58:18 03kilobyte * r95c56f71af29 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files in 3 dirs): Show focused and mastered skills differently in tiles. 10:58:28 happened to me too MarvinPA (then again its almost the same config) 10:58:51 MarvinPA: how does one test this? 10:59:02 &Mice statue 10:59:03 galehar: you usually leave at 6 pm. Same today? 10:59:05 and &Mcurse skull 10:59:13 !messages 10:59:13 (1/2) due said (1d 11h 48m 27s ago): Okay, I updated the documentation for you. You'll need to test any shop stuff in-game first, though, as I can't be sure all my examples are absolutely correct. 10:59:16 with the default config, both should be autoexcluded 10:59:16 dpeg: yes, I will leave soon 10:59:22 galehar: how bad is it? 10:59:23 but only curse skull is 10:59:32 dpeg: I have a lot to talk to you about (changes to all of good gods) but got to go right now :( 10:59:49 kilobyte: it's fine. I might change it so L0 skills with 0 training are greyed (for auto mode) 11:00:02 kilobyte: saw the branch, looks generally very good to me 11:00:28 !tell due Not only did jpeg test it, everything is now (including updates!) at https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:help:maps:syntax:shop_info 11:00:29 dpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 11:00:33 !messages 11:00:33 (1/1) MarvinPA said (23h 31m 2s ago): Aha, thanks for updating the Zin page. I think kilobyte is working on the piety stuff in a branch too, should be cool to try that out! 11:00:45 great, I'll be back in a couple of hours or so 11:00:53 So the new Zin piety model looks good to you? 11:00:57 dpeg: it's ok. We just made some little changes regarding species mutation and food reform compared to what you put on the wiki 11:01:17 there were a couple of problems pointed out with it as currently implemented in ##crawl 11:01:27 the general idea of the gold tithe sounds good to me though 11:01:30 dpeg: Ce gets hunger 2 -> 1 (instead of removal) 11:01:37 dpeg: Ko are unchanged 11:01:42 (problems being: get orcs to pick up gold, lead them out of orc, kill them for more piety) 11:02:00 dpeg: Tr are mostly unchanged (but the gourmand mutation works differently than the amulet) 11:02:09 (and acquirement being worth less in orc, possibly?) 11:02:13 I saw something about trolls having trouble... 11:02:20 galehar: the wiki is always just a first approximation. Impossible for me get it right just at the green table. 11:02:43 galehar: I was about to comment on Mantis but then I saw your plan, which was very good. 11:03:15 MarvinPA: well, need to distinguish between orc gold and non-orc gold, perhaps. 11:03:56 perhaps, if the amount of piety really is such an issue 11:04:03 kilobyte was unhappy about giving carni 3 to Tr. So he reverted it and gave them back their gourmand mutation which allows them to stuff themselves. 11:04:37 either way is fine, we can tune later if needed 11:04:38 sapro 3 seems also not appropriate for trolls, so reverted and kept it at 2 11:04:43 -!- Zaba has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:04:44 yes 11:04:55 yes, trolls are "always hungry" ;-P 11:04:57 sapro 3 fits other guys better 11:05:08 SamB: but rotten stuff shouldn't be better to them 11:05:11 ghoul only 11:05:18 dpeg: why not? 11:05:32 ghoul specialty 11:05:35 ah 11:05:38 doesn't fit Trolls 11:05:52 I haven't known many trolls 11:05:52 galehar: I was shaken by your forum message :) 11:06:00 which one? 11:07:16 You sent me one urgent-sounding forum message about me being needed on irc for food reform discussion. 11:07:48 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:08:25 Being abyssed from bailey portal resets the level when you return (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4688) by absolutego 11:08:59 ah right, this one :) 11:09:07 oh, hmm 11:09:44 oh, nice 11:09:59 I saw you were active on the forum, and kilobyte and me were discussing changes to species mutation regarding food reform. I thought we could use your input. 11:10:09 I might be able to crib ideas for godmenu off of skill_menu 11:10:24 galehar: sorry, busy week here 11:10:32 But you have settled everything just fine. 11:10:45 I think it's mostly fine yeah 11:11:21 food reform has been on cao today. There were a few bugs but no crash. 11:11:30 Will land on cdo tomorrow 11:11:43 hmm, no way to get a skill menu to let the player pick a skill? 11:12:31 SamB: what? 11:12:47 SamB: poke me if you need any help. I wrote the whole skill menu myself. 11:13:19 I wanted to try changin &S to use the menu 11:13:32 oh yeah 11:13:39 I've been thinking about it 11:14:06 best way to implement would be to add a third mode: auto/manual/edit 11:14:23 Did I ever introduce MarvinPA and elliptic as devs on c-r-d? (I know I didn't introduce SamB, no need to tell me that :) 11:14:27 anyway, this will certainly be good code to look at when trying to design the god menu! 11:14:29 in edit mode, you would be able to adjust training, skill levels, skill points... 11:14:35 what is c-r-d? 11:14:45 ??c-r-d 11:14:46 SF mailing list 11:14:46 crd[1/1]: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/crawl-ref-discuss 11:14:50 ah 11:15:00 "Missing tiles" for 0.10 mentions horns for the beastly appendage - but there's already a visual pair of bovine horns when you cast it in trunk. 11:15:03 something you should subscribe to! 11:15:03 Just a placeholder? 11:15:14 it is not much used these days, but I realised through jpeg that some non-irc using devs are completely out of the loop that way 11:15:33 dpeg: if you get a chance, I could use feedback on the new hive portal overhaul. It will need a fair amount of work regardless, but I think the new bee mechanics are fun 11:15:49 greatzebu: yes, I will, but not much time this week. 11:15:57 ok, no hurry 11:16:00 I thought I'd been subscribed already, as part of my hazing 11:16:08 greatzebu: you might not know it but Hive has already been cut by some overly eager dev :) 11:16:46 dpeg: what happens to people who were *in* Hive? 11:16:57 greatzebu: and it might turn out that there won't be a guaranteed Hive because there is less starvation than expected. That won't detract from your work, though, as we'll grab it for a portal vault anyway! 11:17:07 SamB: we cut first, and ask later. 11:17:23 dpeg: I meant, what happens when they go to load their save? 11:17:30 no idea! 11:17:31 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 11:17:36 I suspected as much 11:17:46 hive still generated in existing games, i believe 11:17:47 Crash would probably be best 11:17:54 oh 11:18:03 yes, cut may just set in for save change 11:18:05 dpeg: I vaguely remember that, but I've been mostly out of the loop for the last week. Whether the portal is guaranteed or not is basically just an implementation detail from my perspective. I'd probably lean towards no 11:18:06 personally i have no idea how to handle these clever things but i'm pretty sure save compatability was dealt with in this case :P 11:18:14 that would be better yet 11:18:16 "That's what you get for pilfering the bees, you scummer!" 11:18:32 better than with the training? 11:18:53 elliptic said he'd like a different race theme (than bees) but I am sure that a bee race would be a lot of fun in the midgame 11:19:08 MarvinPA: have you ever been introduced on c-r-d? 11:19:26 oh, did anyone else think that showing the remainder of the changelog for 0.x (the current major release) in the ?V screen would be better than showing ancient key changes? 11:19:30 hmm... possibly? i don't exactly recall 11:19:46 SamB: yes, good idea 11:20:05 Perhaps we can drop the ancient keys altogether? All users should have died of old age by now. 11:20:10 SamB: Hive don't generate in new games, but existing games that were transferred still get it, even if it hasn't been found. 11:20:35 so, say, on 0.10.1 it would still include 0.10's changelog 11:20:54 yes 11:21:26 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: 'later] 11:22:34 Pingas: actually, I think the request on the wiki page may be mostly about the spell tile 11:23:36 I think you're right. 11:23:54 Apperantly that list made me think otherwise, how they listed all the mutations. :d 11:24:03 Did you know that we're officially 27 developers? 11:24:17 haha 11:24:32 that obviously means that no more can get in now ;) 11:25:29 well, I am about to ask if some want to retire (temporarily if they want)... not having heard for years from some 11:26:06 03MarvinPA * r7426ea17354b 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Add a prompt when moving into an excluded area 11:26:16 03MarvinPA * r0d6ff40332ce 10/crawl-ref/source/exclude.cc: Autoexclude statues again 11:26:28 MarvinPA: did you fix the exclusion bug? 11:26:53 not the cloud trap-related one, if that's what you mean 11:27:04 ah, pity :) 11:29:22 MarvinPA, SamB, elliptic: do you actually get c-r-d mails? 11:29:38 did anyone send any lately? 11:29:39 i think i'm subscribed, yeah 11:30:33 yes, Oct 2011 had 4 11:30:48 I think about dolorous' change to ophans and kilobyte's comment on it 11:31:51 ah yeah, about cherubs 11:32:11 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110701115916]] 11:52:09 03SamB * r327f671d1296 10/crawl-ref/source/ (util/gen_ver.pl version.cc version.h): Add Version::Major(), returning e.g. "0.10" for 0.10-a0 and 0.10.1 both. 11:54:44 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 12:03:33 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:23:12 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Quit: Recalculating TATARI at "the crossing crossing"] 12:28:27 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 12:37:49 * SamB wishes people would quit making material changes to closure of "AppHdr.h"... 12:42:50 oh, any particular reason that Lua sessions don't make it into the log? 12:45:38 * SamB kinda wishes C++ had proper modules... 12:51:35 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:51:51 yeah, that'd be nice, but it would no longer be C++ :P 12:59:17 dpeg: I'm subscribed also, yes 13:23:55 dpeg: dolorous just enabled them as TSO summons, I didn't think this was a good idea since they, especially in my version, currently suck 13:24:06 due will give them another try 13:24:22 my version was just a daeva with a bow 13:26:28 SamB: do you have the relations between headers in mind? 13:27:05 if so, changing them so editing a header doesn't require recompiling world could be a good idea 13:27:51 too bad, some like player.h or monster.h can't be really separated 13:28:10 kilobyte: wanna discuss the good guys now? 13:28:11 (but a lot of stuff could be evicted from the player structure, though) 13:28:46 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 13:28:48 dpeg: sure. The cat is already on my knees so I can't move anyway :p 13:28:51 hehe 13:29:47 first, TSO. I came up with a new way to gain piety, and it probably works well enough. 13:30:01 So the plan is this? All good gods have slow piety decay, none has piety gain for exploration or waiting, instead: Zin:tithe (permanent), absolution (at leisure); TSO:seeing monsters; Ely: pacification. 13:30:34 All of this seems good to me. It changes Ely slightly in the players _have_ to pacify, but that is an improvement, imo. 13:30:53 I did not remove Zin:chaotics/unclean, Ely:weapon destruction and TSO:killing evil 13:31:04 ah, sure, forgot those 13:31:12 These are minor, but good. Should stay, of course. 13:31:30 Well, not so minor with late TSO... 13:31:51 well, TSO's piety for seeing monsters is pretty low currently... I don't know how much should it be. 13:32:23 whether we want to go more for theme or more for all-around usefulness 13:32:29 piety gain could depend on current piety -- does it? 13:32:52 kilobyte: yes to piety decay for all? 13:33:01 the second seems tempting but on the other hand, there are gods strictly useless in the late game (Yred) or nearly useless (Fedhas) 13:33:19 dpeg: piety gain is slowed down if you have lots, this is common to all gods 13:33:52 can be jacked up for a particular god if needed 13:33:55 okay 13:35:02 for Ely, I made the decay really slow since in non-living branches you won't have targets nor food for pacification nor many weapons, not sure what to do 13:35:23 (it's a pity to lose late game appeal, especially for a good god) 13:35:51 kilobyte: you can pacify surprisingly much with high Inv. 13:35:57 All those 5 demons are pure piety. 13:36:18 For 1 you need the expensive ability, but not for low ones. 13:36:24 and pure food drain, too 13:36:35 could be tuned, perhaps 13:36:38 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:36:47 !lg * urune=15 s=god 13:36:47 905 games for * (urune=15): 204x The Shining One, 131x Sif Muna, 86x Makhleb, 84x Vehumet, 69x Kikubaaqudgha, 60x Ashenzari, 50x Okawaru, 42x Nemelex Xobeh, 39x , 26x Zin, 24x Jiyva, 24x Trog, 21x Lugonu, 13x Xom, 11x Cheibriados, 7x Fedhas, 7x Elyvilon, 4x Beogh, 3x Yredelemnul 13:36:49 kilobyte: yes, perhaps 13:37:16 3x Yredelemnul, yay :) 13:37:17 note how few full wins Ely had even with piety for waiting 13:37:34 I am not sure that many players have understood Elyvilon yet :) 13:38:00 Evil weapons give piety throughout, not sure how much that helps. 13:38:10 dpeg: I know I didn't, the ability descriptions made me think I had to damage enemies first in order to be able to pacify them 13:38:55 ais523: not good. We wouldn't make such a design blunder. Let me check if we blundered the descriptions. 13:38:55 all evil weapons do is 100% chance for +1 to piety no matter the price 13:39:04 kilobyte: this is good 13:39:19 dpeg: the descriptions are I think correct, but easy to misinterpret 13:39:25 aha 13:40:09 the question is, is the current food cost acceptable, or should it be changed? Or do I think about full games too much? 13:40:38 kilobyte: it is impossible to get it exactly right at the first try. Waiting -> non-waiting piety is a drastic step. Let's start it now and be generous, then we'll see. 13:40:50 kilobyte: I think you think about full games too much, yes :) 13:41:16 Two good gods are endgame-viable, the third one is decent. 13:41:16 3-runers = boring :p 13:42:16 woooooooooo 13:42:22 It is good to have someone actually caring for extended but the vast majority of the players never see Zot and among those who do, only a small minority goes extended. 13:45:07 Minor Healing costs 100 food, how much should it be? 13:45:22 I have no idea. 13:45:35 In the early game, the food cost is relevant and works well, btw. 13:45:53 Since we cannot use piety as a cost, we only have food. 13:46:53 food is pretty much the main concern for ely chars 13:47:26 st_: depends on how pure you play them 13:47:48 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:47:58 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:48:34 kilobyte: what are the current piety gain rates of the good gods? 13:49:16 totally untested... 13:49:45 ok, so the former ones :) 13:50:30 Zin: +1/240 turns, TSO: +1/300 turns, Ely: +1/400 turns 13:50:58 this is actually good... by how much have you increase piety gain from Minor Healing? 13:51:15 *2 13:51:34 This is steep, let us test that on its own. 13:51:58 Piety for TSO should be easier... give half of what a blood god gives for a kill or so? 13:54:39 somewhat hard to compare the formulas... no idea who came up with them 13:54:46 hehe, currently playing: "Meth Crawl" 13:54:58 kilobyte: which formulas, the new ones? 13:55:55 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 14:03:09 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:09:22 Trapped in entry to Crypt (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4689) by XuaXua 14:11:41 hrm, way too much 14:12:47 when XL = HD, it's 3/4ish (from 68% at 1 to 81% at 27) 14:13:44 kilobyte: what is the formula? (we're talking TSO monster spot piety, right?) 14:14:15 WRT why did elyvilon not have max piety even with waiting: the answer is simple 14:14:34 elyvilon is one of the best gods lategame and her abilities are so useful you want to keep using them 14:16:03 kilobyte: yes I think that changing Ely piety will not do much to extended gamers... she had the lower piety/turn anyway and there is some food, after all 14:17:47 she can do pretty little, too... lifesaving is too unreliable (and would just take all your piety in the reliable part), since almost always it's not a matter of a single blow 14:18:12 whatever killed you will kill you again the next turn 14:22:55 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:23:43 we just need Ely to allow undead worshippers, mummies and ely will be the ultimate combo 14:24:23 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 14:25:54 dpeg: hey, idea: what if Invo reduced hunger the way INT*Spc does? (maybe not to 0) 14:26:47 this way we'd have both steep hunger in early game and no food problems in late game 14:27:06 kilobyte: ely will save you 5 times in a row while praying at high piety 14:28:52 casmith789: right, but leaving you at the same hp you had. This means you're golden against that ancient lich with crystal spears, but as if you had no god against, say, royal jelly spawns. 14:29:32 a major power but I'd choose Sanctuary or Step from Time any day 14:29:59 well 1 more turn is vital 14:30:36 and in general, it's big attacks that are going to kill you lategame, you will take very little or a lot of damage 14:32:32 somehow it tends to be a smoke demon or another random critter from the peanut gallery... but again, it's damn situational 14:33:51 I never did an Ely game though so we can see how situation changes 14:35:19 ely is great :) the only reason I don't play her more is because she has too many restrictions 14:35:39 dpeg: back to TSO. I realized that HD=XL is not that good an approximation. With HD=1/2 XL, the current formula on the branch gives nearly exactly half the piety as for Yred or Kiku. 14:36:07 but unlike Yred, with no involuntary drains 14:36:16 kilobyte: reducing hunger cost with Inv is an option but I am not convinced it is necessary. Let us try your current change and we will see. 14:36:17 half the decay, too 14:36:27 dpeg: yeah, we have time 14:36:36 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:37:12 kilobyte: so half Yrdy's gain, on top of piety for killing evil bastards? 14:37:24 btw, spotting evils should not give piety 14:37:28 I kind of think it would be better to have TSO weak early on... having him be a second Trog with Daeva spam at every opportunity would be bad 14:37:55 reasoning: things are good or evil. Seeing that something is not evil ==> minor piety gain. Seeing something evil, GOTTA KILL RIGHT AWAY ==> more piety gain. 14:38:52 dpeg: I discussed this with guys before, Eronarn argued that this is a replacement for free piety so you should get both and it sounded good to me at the time. 14:39:48 so there are two avenues: 1. big flow of piety at all times (and toned down gain for evils), or 2. a trickle early, powerful in demon/undead 14:39:57 not sure what to do... 14:40:35 Daeva spam is balanced by being unable to use it at times when they'd devastate everything 14:40:44 how would this affect piety gain in pan/hells? less than with the current on kill gain? 14:40:57 jeanjacques: this is precisely kilobyte's question 14:41:20 now it is more than enough to essentialy have daeva/angels kill anything for you 14:41:30 coupled with extended summon time for the kills 14:42:48 kilobyte: I don't know...if we go 2., we keep TSO as a late gosd 14:43:23 in early crypt perhaps, in Pan daevas are not as overpowered 14:43:44 if you just haste all of them they are 14:44:31 MuBe kick ass even without berserk... because you get Bros early 14:45:45 hrm, well, I'll try with reduced piety for evils :( 14:45:51 even though I have a bad feeling 14:46:20 if the standard keep crypt for after a switch to tso strategy gives significant less piety 14:46:23 -!- Sequell has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:47:24 the late switch would be less attractive / more of a dangerous effort 14:48:50 beh, TSO and Ely were supposed to be the noncontroversial ones 14:48:55 I dread the Zin talk 14:49:09 kilobyte: give no piety for spotting monsters he gives piety for. Trust me on this one. 14:49:22 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 14:49:24 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:49:38 dpeg: m'kay... 14:50:03 with Zin, there are some big questions 14:50:18 kilobyte: flavour and abuse... don't want to have TSOites gain piety from running through undead popcorn 14:50:22 03kilobyte 07no_free_piety * r1653a9b34ac8 10/crawl-ref/source/godconduct.cc: No TSO piety for merely spotting evil. Go kill 'em! 14:51:07 piety for popcorn could be reduced -- both spotting and killing 14:51:10 yes 14:51:23 Now the dreaded Zin talk :) 14:52:51 The only problem is that Orc gold skews the curve so much? 14:53:16 current rules: 1/10 tithe, unlike the wiki proposal no forced fee on join, Orc gains are halved, acquired gold (including vaults with acquirement code) is stepped down 14:53:39 I think Orc was mostly dealt with by the halving... a hack but could work. 14:54:14 fee on join vs no fee is one question... another one is a penalty or not for not picking up gold 14:55:35 SO if you're a later arrival, you can still donate your gold in order to get rid of it? 14:56:31 one complaint I heard is that Zinnites might decide to turn off autopickup of gold 14:57:21 a possible fix could be to demand the tithe for merely seeing gold... but not sure if that's thematic. There was a rebuttal (mighty apologies for forgetting who said that) that seeing a vault with gold behind glass would screw you 14:57:54 as a switch to other good god and pick up all the gold abuse? 14:58:06 not sure if we should care... my bigger concern is that this would be a nasty hack, hard to explain for Zin (and not that proposed gold god) 14:58:19 dpeg: for late arrival, you can donate voluntarily 14:58:31 for the most part i'd assume you'd just want the piety 14:58:38 would zin stop taking a tithe at max piety? 14:58:44 jeanjacques: or any non-evil non-chaotic god 14:59:01 MarvinPA: on the current branch he keeps taking it... but piety decays 14:59:11 ah right, yeah 14:59:12 i dont think 10% gold is ever that big of a deal either 14:59:38 the historical tithe could be a lot more than 10% 15:02:49 So immediate delivery (tithe) should yield more piety/coin than absolution -- does it? 15:03:40 what about leaving orc gold as regular, zin could use that early/mid boost in power 15:04:36 not like you could sanctuary waltz through every dangerous situation afterwards 15:05:40 jeanjacques: kilobyte did the numbers... Orc yields more than 1000 on average, I think. With plain D levels, you need a long time for that. 15:10:45 dpeg: I am quite confident about Orc vs regular, but I have serious doubts about whether I got the time:gold ratio right 15:12:47 kilobyte: 1000 gold picked up vs 1000 gold donated, what is the piety difference? 15:13:32 hrm, quite massive. 15:14:13 in favour of donation? -- that is a problem 15:14:26 you get 1.5 piety per gold piece when tithing 15:15:01 ah, so it is much better for tithe, that is okay 15:15:03 but only ln(x)/200 when donating, where x is the amount 15:18:49 do I get this right? looks like you get a piddling 34 piety for donating when you have 2000 in the pouch 15:18:59 (ie, a donation of 1000) 15:19:07 yes 15:19:22 you have to sac something like 8000 or so, I think 15:19:36 now that Zin does not give piety for waiting anymore, we can be more generous 15:20:04 I think I must have made some massive error somewhere... 15:20:38 picking up that 2000 gold will about max your piety 15:21:05 and you get to keep 1800 rather than 1000 like with donations 15:24:08 How does that TSO change just announced impact piety gain if you do kill every evil critter you see? 15:24:15 Zin main piety used to be waiting, with gold slapped on for theme and late arrivals. Now that Zin is all about getting money to build St Peter's, we can ramp up the formula. 15:24:23 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 15:24:42 wouldn't more piety for tithe than donation mean you should turn off gold pickup until you find zin at the temple? 15:26:07 MarvinPA: yes, but it is much better than the other way around 15:26:25 hmm, i suppose so 15:27:30 Couldn't probably solve that with a special formula for first donation. 15:27:51 so it takes about 5k gold to get 200 piety by donation, or 2k by tithing? 15:28:20 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 15:28:38 oh right, 200 gold actually taken away 15:28:54 that seems like a pretty big deal if you plan on converting late 15:29:43 ideally, it wouldn't matter, yes 15:31:16 or at least the disparity shouldn't be as large as 5000 vs 200... although then how do you handle the donation when you have lots of gold? just donate as much as it would take to get 200 piety, i suppose 15:34:07 yes 15:34:17 gold/time: games<10k turns: 0.036, <20k turns: 0.039, <50k turns: 0.054, all but a couple outliers: 0.069 15:35:18 waiting gave you 0.041 piety/time 15:36:10 thanks for the numbers 15:36:18 the numbers look good to me 15:36:52 current piety decay is 0.029 piety/time 15:37:40 sorry, waiting 0.0041, piety decay 0.0029 (I compensated for only 10% gold being taken) 15:38:58 MarvinPA raised a big point about not picking up gold until temple, though 15:39:15 yes 15:39:36 it is of the same annoyance level as collecting weapons before going Ely or collecting everything before Nemelex 15:40:10 I think a special rule for first donation (perhaps it should be enforced... you're going Zin, after all) can solve this 15:40:23 nastier actually... picking weapons is one keypress now, then you dump them in a pile; gold needs two full runs 15:40:32 I know but ^ 15:40:42 half or 1/10? 15:40:50 and with piety or not? 15:41:29 What about full tithing experience up to piety 50? 15:42:23 or stepped down by the formula I wrote for acquirement 15:42:28 no no 15:42:33 Want to make it easy for players to go Zin. 15:43:05 Can even special case to only use that when you Zin is your first god. 15:44:04 a late switch would waste 10%, not all 15:44:27 and only up to 50 piety 15:45:55 acquirement is capped at +50 piety 15:45:55 might still be acceptable 15:46:33 so it is even comparable 15:46:59 hrm, I see you could leave gold on the ground for a late switch 15:47:46 if you have 3100 gold, you'd be taxed 10% (310) and start with +50 piety. Anything more is pure loss. 15:49:07 and even that is at bandit prices: you'd get 465 piety (more than maxing even with the gain slowdown) for picking that from the ground 15:49:28 The ultimate solution is to keep track of all gold seen... 15:50:13 so you'd be taxed 10% of all that? 15:50:13 03MarvinPA * r530f8e8f5868 10/crawl-ref/source/view.cc: Let magic mapping detect (but not map through) undetected secret doors 15:50:18 Luterac the Chiller (L3 DEIE) ASSERT(prog >= 0) in 'skills2.cc' at line 152 failed on turn 1914. (D:3) 15:50:28 Luterac the Chiller (L3 DEIE) ASSERT(prog >= 0) in 'skills2.cc' at line 152 failed on turn 1914. (D:3) 15:50:41 !lm Luterac type=crash -log 15:50:41 3. Luterac, XL3 DEIE, T:1914 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Luterac/crash-Luterac-20111004-205028.txt 15:50:42 Luterac the Chiller (L3 DEIE) ASSERT(prog >= 0) in 'skills2.cc' at line 152 failed on turn 1914. (D:3) 15:51:22 kilobyte: yes. Needs thought on its own... what with money spent elsewhere :) 15:52:38 of course, gold already taxed by Zin would be exempt... but only that 15:53:01 yes 15:53:18 not sure I like this... you'd be unable to join Zin if you have little in the pouch 15:53:48 he's supposed to emulate Christianity not Scientology 15:53:48 Why? You would collect gold like everyone else. 15:53:52 hehe 15:54:21 I see... 15:54:34 ie, anyone can join... the rich are demanded to pay more, but even the "poor widow's penny" is still wanted 15:55:05 let us mull this one over 15:55:10 there should be a decent solution 15:57:42 10% of your current purse might be a compromise 15:58:02 abusable by converting after a shopping spree 15:59:18 This abuse is less bad than the leave money on the ground. 15:59:27 but then, 10% gold in a late-game conversion isn't that bad 15:59:38 so 10% at tithe regulations? 16:00:05 without a stepdown it would instantly max your piety 16:00:17 Also, the food clock is tigher than before, just played a DSAE^F to XL 9 or 10 (saved in bailey). As it should be. 16:00:35 kilobyte: stepdown at piety 50 is good 16:00:56 it helps the early converts while hurting those who recognise god shortly before death/ascension. 16:02:12 I have a pretty revolutionary idea on traps, but I can only discuss it when kilobyte, galehar, MarvinPA and elliptic are around. Which means approximately Christmas. :) 16:05:47 hrm, it wouldn't fix leaving money 16:06:16 since you'd still get piety at the tithing rare upon picking them up 16:06:41 s/rare/rate/ 16:09:00 Let us think, and collect ideas tomorrow. 16:35:20 dpeg: if Zin is put on hold, should I put Ely and TSO into trunk, or would it be better to wait a bit instead too? 16:36:01 kilobyte: they can imo. 16:36:05 can go in, that is 16:43:56 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 16:56:32 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:58:30 v38m2y69t (L7 DEWz) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,52) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 16:58:59 -!- greatzebu has quit [Quit: greatzebu] 16:59:59 "it" 17:02:00 v38m2y69t (L7 DEWz) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,52) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 17:13:05 Zannick: means it's invisible, in theory 17:13:05 due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:13:10 !messages 17:13:10 (1/1) dpeg said (6h 12m 41s ago): Not only did jpeg test it, everything is now (including updates!) at https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:help:maps:syntax:shop_info 17:13:13 due: yes, i figured 17:13:22 invisible or out of view 17:13:38 well, i guess out of view would be "something" 17:14:02 !tell dpeg awesome 17:14:03 due: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 17:19:44 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 17:24:07 03galehar * r110e6aac50db 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Don't reduce food preference for poisonous chunks if you're resistant. 17:27:25 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 17:27:39 !seen dpeg 17:27:39 I last saw dpeg at Tue Oct 4 21:43:56 2011 UTC (43m 43s ago) quitting with message Quit: zzz. 17:28:21 hi galehar, you just missed him' 17:28:38 hi 17:28:41 yeah, I see 17:29:26 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 17:33:49 hi Wensley 17:34:12 hello due! 17:34:30 * due is cold :( 17:36:47 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: zzz] 18:06:06 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:17:50 -!- mumra has quit [Quit: offski] 18:18:24 -!- Ryak has joined ##crawl-dev 18:19:45 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:27:25 -!- kilobyte has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:28:23 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 18:28:46 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 18:44:34 what the hell is going on in the main channel? 18:45:42 Ryak: spam bots 18:45:46 due: around? 18:46:52 ??ops 18:46:53 I don't have a page labeled ops in my learndb. 18:47:02 well you should! 18:47:52 /q chanserv access list ##crawl 18:47:53 fyi 18:48:00 or /msg 18:48:00 yes, yes 18:48:10 but ??ops would actually get their attention! 18:48:28 but it looks like a freenode staff member went ahead and +q'ed the bots 18:51:12 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:52:53 oh, what are we doing with this key_changes.txt file? 18:53:08 are there really no more-recent (effective) key changes to document? 18:53:40 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:53:49 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Client Quit] 18:56:54 SamB: sorta 18:57:05 due: what sorta? 18:57:14 sorta around 18:57:17 did I miss something? 18:57:24 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:57:28 oh, yeah, the bots 18:57:41 At least I assume those were bots... 18:57:48 in ##crawl 18:58:03 but, someone dealt with them, seemingly 18:58:18 Yeah. 18:58:55 anyway, do you know of any interface changes in the *last* few releases? 18:59:11 for ?V 19:00:46 hm 19:01:03 the only significant thing I can think of is that we switched from svn to git ages back so the syntax changed 19:01:13 what specific sort of changes are you asking about? 19:01:53 do you see the ancient stuff listed in ?V now? 19:02:14 oh 19:02:31 let me log into CDO, don't have a compiled version on this desktop 19:02:59 well, it's actually just the contents of "key_changes.txt" 19:03:24 ah, interesting 19:03:54 so, I thought it would be nice to put *something* in there before removing what's in there now 19:04:24 sounds like a plan! 19:04:35 maybe a partt of the changelog? 19:05:12 or, well, we could stop using key_changes.txt at all and just put the rest of the changelog for the major release in question 19:05:37 would you like that? 19:06:13 i think that's a better idea 19:06:22 if people really care about key changes, it's there in the docs 19:15:16 -!- Brannock_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:17:15 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:25:42 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:03:30 WOW these string methods have a lot of overloads... 20:05:07 I wish the STL docs would highlight the identifier in each prototype... 20:05:31 my wrist is cracky today :( 20:16:13 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18:18 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:24:29 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 20:34:05 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 20:37:56 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:38:00 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 20:38:49 -!- UbAh has joined ##crawl-dev 20:39:34 ??crazed wizard 20:39:35 wizard[1/2]: Purple @ (red if it's crazed) with the same spells as Erolcha, ie banishment, LCS, fun stuff like that. If you see one before D:15 or so, there is probably a roomful of {abomination}s nearby. See {erolcha spells}. 20:39:55 ??crazed wizard [2] 20:39:56 crazed wizard[2/2]: Leaves crazed remains 20:40:24 oops wrong room 20:40:29 sry for the spam 20:55:30 -!- Ryak has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 21:02:15 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:43 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:13:01 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:14:20 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 21:20:46 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:22:34 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 21:24:48 -!- mikee_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:24:51 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 21:30:55 webtiles lobby should show tension for voyeurs to better find action 21:39:51 maybe DGL should show that, too ;-P 21:58:27 then you could have contest to see who can generate the most tension 21:58:41 how is it measured now just a numerical value? 21:58:52 incrementing up? 22:00:33 i think tension decreases really quickly once all the monsters are gone? wouldn't work very well for what you want, in that case 22:00:49 the best way to judge how interesting a game is for spectating is to just look at the spectator count (usually) 22:01:02 that has feedback, though 22:01:11 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:01:25 the other way is just to spectate interesting places 22:01:44 spectate bad players 22:01:48 they are most likely to be in trouble 22:01:52 haha 22:05:38 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 22:08:10 -!- jeanjacques_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:10:10 03SamB * rd0e900de5786 10/crawl-ref/source/command.cc: On ?V, display more of changelog.txt, and none of key_changes.txt. 22:10:33 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:11:55 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 22:12:28 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:21:17 -!- ixtli_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:21:46 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:21:46 -!- ixtli_ is now known as ixtli 22:58:27 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:02:03 -!- Brannock_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:41:37 -!- UbAh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:54:38 -!- Chousuke has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:56:43 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 23:59:24 -!- jeanjacques_ is now known as jeanjacques