00:03:16 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1073-ged835a3 (32) 00:03:18 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1073-ged835a3 (32) 00:08:30 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:08:31 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 00:18:58 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1073-ged835a3 00:20:26 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it] 00:39:12 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:41:10 Polyphemus says, "@Foe_genus@ for dinner? Sounds delicious!" (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4668) by ortoslon 00:42:02 hahaha 00:45:50 e - the +3,+5 giant spiked club "Opaol" {god gift, holy, rF-} 00:46:20 i figured it would be speed branded on account of im not using clubs 01:10:55 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:21:16 -!- Ryak has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:23:12 /msg NickServ identify freedom 01:27:28 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 01:28:19 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:34:15 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:53:22 -!- Galefury has joined ##crawl-dev 02:53:27 -!- Galefury is now known as alefury 02:53:38 hi 02:54:20 moin alefury 03:12:42 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:25:15 hi syllogism 03:38:38 hey 03:54:01 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:15:39 -!- Zaba has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:26:21 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:36:10 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 05:00:03 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1073-ged835a3 05:03:29 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:26:27 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:28:41 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:28:43 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 05:29:58 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 05:59:17 Scroll of Paper stash filter (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4669) by Bim 06:05:11 Having to pick up knife/trains short swords (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4670) by Bim 06:25:57 -!- BlastHardcheese has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:28:08 03kilobyte * r6efdf7f6b78f 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Add a yet another special-cased capitalization for @Foe_genus@. 06:28:17 03kilobyte * rd6c545c660c5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (108 files in 4 dirs): Build skill tiles from source, delete pre-composited ones. 06:33:06 I see there is both an upcase_first and uppercase_first, heh. 06:36:49 Fyren: correction, _was_. 06:36:58 until yesterday to be exact 06:41:07 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:48:57 -!- mikee_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:51:56 -!- capablanca has joined ##crawl-dev 06:52:47 -!- capablanca is now known as mikee_ 06:59:19 -!- ainsophyao has quit [*.net *.split] 06:59:19 -!- MakMorn has quit [*.net *.split] 07:01:42 -!- BlastHardcheese has joined ##crawl-dev 07:04:33 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 07:04:34 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 07:12:19 -!- MakMorn has quit [*.net *.split] 07:12:19 -!- ainsophyao has quit [*.net *.split] 07:16:25 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: Stay sane inside insanity!] 07:32:35 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 07:39:00 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 07:54:07 03MarvinPA * r1edb10cb496d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Menkaure speech fix 08:02:21 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:05:21 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:29:41 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 08:30:23 Game my friend made, free for today only: 08:30:24 http://twitter.com/#!/tametick/status/120485642504372226 08:30:27 It is a roguelike too :o 08:31:23 * kilobyte hates bad websites that require login to read anything. 08:32:06 03kilobyte * r5430d73ec3ee 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Make the vampiric brand in monsters' hands consistent with that in players. 08:32:13 03kilobyte * rba0c359bbe70 10/crawl-ref/source/acquire.cc: Don't give practically useless weapon types in scroll acquirement. 08:33:53 MarvinPA_: do you think rot on vampire mosquitoes bite should be re-added as a separate effect? (it definitely shouldn't affect weapons) 08:34:11 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 08:34:15 hmm 08:35:13 @??vampire mosquito 08:35:14 vampire mosquito (07y) | Speed: 19 | HD: 5 | Health: 16-39 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 507(disease), 805(vampiric) | Flags: 07undead, evil, fly | Res: 06magic(20), 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | Chunks: 04rot | XP: 179. 08:36:04 no thanks 08:36:12 it's probably not that big a deal, i imagine they'll be decently annoying still without it 08:39:03 ok... it was the threat of a semi-permanent loss that made them dangerous, though 08:39:59 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 08:40:15 Surr (L13 DsBe) ERROR: range check error (1818848058 / 211) (Abyss) 08:43:41 well they are quite dangerous in the lair vaults they appear in for not buff chars 08:44:15 after that they are just yet another annoyance in the midgame 08:46:33 * SamB wonders how hard it would be to factor the god menu out of describe.cc... 08:53:22 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 08:53:22 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 08:56:28 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:59:14 !lm Surr type=crash -log 08:59:15 46. Surr, XL13 DsBe, T:21090 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/Surr/crash-Surr-20111002-134011.txt 09:03:07 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 09:10:41 MarvinPA: when you draw foxfire without sinv and get vapours, the message is sort of misleading - "Whatever you just summoned cannot be friendly", I'm guessing because there is one or two that are hostile? 09:10:54 it makes it seem like you just summoned a ton of hostile stuff 09:11:00 hmm... yeah, that's true 09:12:10 any idea for a better wording? 09:13:56 "some of the beings you summoned are hostile" 09:14:01 thats pretty blunt, though :/ 09:15:18 not sure for foxfire it's that necessary to say anything unless they are all hostile 09:15:29 hostile vapours don't do much 09:17:31 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:19:30 <|amethyst> "You sense the presence of something unfriendly" ? 09:19:57 <|amethyst> then again that makes it sound like ESP 09:20:09 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:21:00 i guess since it determines each monster's friendliness individually now it's maybe not so much of a big deal 09:26:06 03MarvinPA * r8daa73bd9b46 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abl-show.cc dat/descript/ability.txt dat/descript/cards.txt): Add descriptions for the Zotdef abilities and ability flags, fix a description typo 09:26:10 03MarvinPA * r78d6b2acc988 10/crawl-ref/source/decks.cc: Tweak the message for invisible hostiles from Foxfire 09:36:05 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 09:36:21 so, MarvinPA , how about adding http://pastebin.com/7BVTrbBz as a commented out config thingy? 09:36:41 for people to include as needed? 09:37:02 seems like it would be useful to a lot of people 09:37:44 well, probably wouldn't be appropriate to have all that in the default rc, even commented out 09:38:09 theres stuff for old versions, weird autopickup exceptions, etc 09:38:21 half that stuff probably ought to be removed :P 09:38:24 i think playing a summoner is more common that those situations 09:49:54 i suppose it could go commented out in messages.txt, maybe 09:50:04 seems like a better solution would be to actually reduce the spam, though :P 09:52:46 some of those messages could be removed i guess 09:53:33 but most can actually be relevant 09:53:50 one option would be to mute some by default 09:54:06 03MarvinPA * r31a7c0d87956 10/crawl-ref/settings/runrest_messages.txt: Add a missing Jiyva message to the default runrest_messages, update trap messages 09:54:07 instead of outright removing the messages 09:54:48 one other message related annoyance: forms almost running out stops resting, but not travel or autoexplore 09:55:00 that will be irrelevant if permabuffs are added, however 09:58:43 -!- Ryak has joined ##crawl-dev 10:33:48 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:41:31 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:44:58 if everyone can train spellcasting at the start why can't everyone train invocations at the start? 10:45:06 it's no different 10:46:03 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:46:34 you can train invo if you have something that uses it 10:47:23 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:47:59 IMO the best thing for invo would be that you can train it if you are worshipping a god who uses invo 10:48:23 I don't see a reason to allow nemelexites or atheists to train it, though 10:48:43 well why should you be able to train spellcasting in preparation for finding a book and not train invo in preparation for worshipping your god 10:48:52 yes, that would just be confusing. especially for kiku, nemelex, trog 10:49:33 st_: well, the idea was supposed to be that you have no way of training invo without an invocation 10:49:38 st_: because silly people are trying to recreate the restrictions of the victory dancing skill system, which means you need something to train invocations with to train invocations 10:49:40 whereas with spellcasting there are scrolls 10:51:26 I think the purpose of the restrictions is two-fold: you want to keep as few skills as possible trainable, and you want to protect people from themselves (so no training skills that are currently useless) 10:51:36 but we also don't want to be very restrictive 10:52:01 yeah, it was handled very well imo, i was expecting worse for some reason 10:52:18 about spellcasting, I could see that requiring a memorized spell... not really sure why it doesn't 10:52:38 i dont really like the opportunity costs, but oh well, at least its better than level 1 dancin 10:52:46 elliptic: because you cant memorize spells without spellcasting 10:52:54 well, that could be changed :) 10:53:15 (also is that still true? it really shouldn't be with smooth skills, hm) 10:53:39 i havent tried 10:54:31 i think the restriction makes sense, you have to learn how to cast spells to cast spells 10:54:56 having a minimum level of casting knowledge to be able to do that sounds fine to me 10:55:29 one issue with the current system regarding spells is that there may be situations where you want to memorize a spell at terrible in order to train its school 10:55:39 also, spellcasting being visible from the start is good imo, its a reminder that the option of casting exists for backgrounds that start without spells 10:55:40 which is possible, but requires a lot of tries 10:55:50 alefury: yeah, that's a good point 10:56:43 I sort of wonder whether it should be enough to carry a book with a spell from a school in order to train that school 10:57:11 it makes sense that you would be able to train the school by studying the book 10:58:05 anyway, I think for a lot of these details with the restrictions, it will become clear what is best after a bit more testing... they certainly aren't set in stone 10:58:16 it avoids the slot cost, and removes the requirement of finding a low level spell to break into the school 10:58:40 as I said, you can memorize spells at terrible... it just takes a lot of tedium trying 10:59:00 yeah, but then you just wasted 7 slots or so 10:59:19 but yeah, the second point is pretty moot 10:59:33 sure, the slots matter more... but I'm still not sure whether it is really worth the trouble 11:00:57 for reducing clutter i think having to know the spell is better 11:01:21 for avoiding players doing silly things to do silly things just having to carry is better 11:01:45 yeah... I'm not sure 11:01:48 i think clutter is more important 11:02:15 i sometimes carry around 3-4 books in the early game, to dump when i run out of slots or carrying capacity 11:02:24 thats like 10 spell schools 11:02:31 that's true 11:03:27 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:07:26 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 11:08:15 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:11:25 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 11:12:15 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 11:26:02 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 11:36:57 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:37:56 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 12:01:22 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110701115916]] 12:06:06 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 12:22:26 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:25:26 -!- mikee_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:25:31 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:33:11 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:50:35 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:51:11 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:58:47 -!- Brannock has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:00:20 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 13:10:20 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 13:12:36 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 13:13:40 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:39:37 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.7/20100713130626]] 13:45:52 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 13:46:00 !seen kilobyte 13:46:02 I last saw kilobyte at Sun Oct 2 13:59:14 2011 UTC (4h 46m 47s ago) saying !lm Surr type=crash -log on ##crawl-dev. 13:46:11 !seen galehar 13:46:11 I last saw galehar at Fri Sep 30 22:58:07 2011 UTC (1d 19h 48m 4s ago) quitting with message Remote host closed the connection. 13:46:21 !seen bhaak__ 13:46:21 I last saw bhaak__ at Fri Sep 30 08:49:43 2011 UTC (2d 9h 56m 38s ago) joining the channel. 13:46:30 !seen dpeg 13:46:30 I last saw dpeg at Sun Oct 2 18:46:21 2011 UTC (9s ago) saying !seen bhaak__ on ##crawl-dev. 13:46:36 !seen bhaak 13:46:36 I last saw bhaak at Fri Sep 30 08:23:27 2011 UTC (2d 10h 23m 9s ago) quitting with message Ping timeout: 260 seconds. 13:46:44 -!- Galefury has joined ##crawl-dev 13:46:45 * dpeg feels stalked. 13:47:25 dpeg! 13:48:01 -!- Galefury is now known as alefury 13:48:31 Ryak! 13:48:51 did you look at the numbers on that updated spreadsheet? 13:48:54 !send Ryak food 13:48:55 Sending food to Ryak. 13:49:14 not yet, let me have a look -- it is linked on Mantis? 13:49:40 yeah its the spreadsheet i had posted awhile ago, sheet 2 13:50:16 !tell kilobyte From what I've seen in Thasero's Vitalise commit message, everything seems fine. Any objections to use it? I phrased my initial problems with Vitalise a bit clumsily, sorry for confusion. 13:50:17 dpeg: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 13:52:42 Ryak: why/how do you get nutrition values of 1999 -- rounding errors? 13:53:33 yeah 13:54:38 it ended up being 1920 before but i figured i'd up it slightly to get it as close to the original value as possible 13:54:41 Ryak: you still manage to get by without the content parameter? 13:56:31 yeah 13:57:00 The numbers look good, the biggest discrepancy right now is that your approach does not punish wrong food type (w.r.t. herbi/carnivore) as much as the other. 13:57:51 one of the things i changed was adding a -1 modifier for wrong food type 13:58:16 we could probably up that to -2 even 13:58:57 Can you post the resulting numbers? My original proposal overdid the punishment... good thing that galehar asked for numbers. 13:59:26 with a -2 instead of -1? yeah itll take me a couple minutes to modify it 14:00:07 -!- bhaak__ is now known as bhaak 14:00:47 hmm, it seems like the proposed vitalise changes actually make it closer to ely purification again? 14:01:00 MarvinPA: too close? 14:01:08 it heals all negative statuses and restores all drained stats, at least, which purification does also 14:01:24 MarvinPA: but it also works proactively, unlike Purify 14:01:31 right 14:01:50 MarvinPA: if pressed, I think this stuff is better off with Zin 14:01:57 hmm 14:02:27 it might be interesting if it just worked proactively rather than being something you heal yourself with after the fact, that seems more fitting with ely to me 14:03:02 MarvinPA: could also be done, yes. I'd still let the patch go in as is. Would you mind? 14:03:11 Zin would love some petting. 14:03:23 sure, if the worries about food are sorted? 14:03:34 it does look like an improvement to me, at least 14:03:41 dpeg: just back from the perry rhodan con, you were looking for me? 14:03:44 look at tab 3 14:03:51 thats with a -2 penalty for wrong food type instead of -1 14:04:03 it actually lines up pretty well 14:04:32 oh, it looks like the patch actually completely replaces some of zin's passive protections? 14:04:40 bhaak: a little, yes. Rhodan con, that is only slightly less nerdy than NH? :P 14:05:06 MarvinPA: yes, isn't that more interesting? 14:05:21 rMut is explained in the text, and I think Thasero also did it for Sick 14:06:13 where is this? 14:06:31 elliptic: Zin wiki page, Vitalise. 14:06:33 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:zin#vitalise1 14:06:34 and https://github.com/ejames/crawl/commit/d1c64de4c3c7e7598cfc52e28b7911a1b8643b07 14:06:35 dpeg: nh has more nerd creds, i thing. it's depressing. friend and his $SO, my $SO and me belonged to the younger part of the audience :-O 14:07:02 bhaak: how would that be different with a NH con? :P 14:08:47 I find it really difficult to tell what has or has not been patched from that page 14:08:52 Ryak: looks good! I'd like to have galehar get a look. Would you upload this last version with a link to the spreadsheet, please. 14:08:56 for instance, has rMut stuff actually been patched? 14:09:17 elliptic: I was only responsible for making the patch :O 14:09:24 just the vitalise stuff in the commit i linked 14:09:34 unless there's other things i've completely missed :P 14:09:49 I don't much like that suggestion for getting rid of passive rMut 14:09:52 yeah 14:10:26 dpeg: well, i've been to a rl con and it was nerdier and people had more hair. on average 14:11:12 elliptic: I think the reasoning is pretty good (not my idea but I support it) 14:11:32 we'll have to have a crawl con, although it would probably be in either germany or australia so I'd have a hard time getting there :( 14:11:47 the vitalise changes look reasonable though even if I agree with marvinpa's comments about it being really close to purification 14:11:59 bhaak: been listening to rl podcast yesterday and feel that Crawl's time is up (same for the other oldies). 14:12:31 "time is up"? 14:12:36 elliptic: one retroactive, the other proactive would be a good way of dealing with that, and the proactive one also gets the stat doping. 14:12:43 are you saying that crawl is obsolete? time to abandon ship! 14:12:53 Wensley: the next wave of roguelikes doesn't even reference the classics anymore. 14:13:02 dpeg: yes, I think that's what marvinpa suggested 14:13:15 Of course, they also don't feature gods, so are sorry excuses for a roguelike in my not so humble opinion. 14:13:17 if i can figure out how to pull from github i'll try this out locally, anyway 14:13:22 MarvinPA: <3 14:14:16 one other thing i was thinking of, trolls get innate gourmand, how is that implemented. I might have missed them when i was checking for gourmand since i just check for the amulet 14:14:22 dpeg: but crawl can reference them and thereby steal all of their best ideas :D 14:14:40 dpeg: though if kilobyte's computation is right, the satiation from vitalise will need to change 14:14:48 since we can't let it keep people alive forever 14:15:11 Ryak: +1 on chunk level 14:15:19 Wensley: of course! 14:15:38 that's a very real objection... if a spriggan of zin can farm piety by waiting in temple at no food cost, this is very bad 14:15:43 elliptic: I didn't understand what was going on there. 14:16:06 elliptic: what is a bug with piety from waiting. Just one more reason to replace it with piety from exploration. 14:16:07 dpeg: it is really only a problem because of piety gain with time 14:16:11 yes 14:16:34 but we can't really apply this patch as is until piety from exploration is implemented if it is abusable like that 14:17:10 oh wait i see its handled in wearing_amulet() 14:17:43 dpeg: which rl do you mean? only the bigger ones have even enough code/space/playtime to reference the classics. especially the keybindings are much better with smaller rl as you don't have to cram that much functionality into the limited keyboard 14:18:43 bhaak: You could also phrase it as the time of the large scope games being over. I don't think that'S true but they do give this impression. 14:19:15 dpeg: from reading the comments for that podcast, looks like its hosts have only really played nethack, adom, and tome :P 14:20:23 They have the UnAngband dev among their ranks, which explains why Angand is mentioned all the time :) 14:21:03 dpeg: how about co-hosting a new podcast, where we review other roguelikes and make fun of them for not having gods 14:21:33 dpeg: getting large needs time? maybe because of the 7rl competition there are many more small rl? with doomrl, they were complaining that it got too myn features and wasn't as small as it used to. so maybe, in 10 years, doomrl is the next big rl? 14:21:42 (we can rate them on a scale of 0 to 27) 14:24:05 im going to test my changes real fast then i'll post a patch 14:24:12 or maybe dcss with all its devs gets so big that it collapses into a black hole and scoops up all other rls ... problem solved, all rls will be big :-D 14:24:33 bhaak: I am not bitter. 14:25:01 you didn't sound bitter. 14:25:49 okay, didn't want to come around as an old fart who wonders what the youngsters are up to :) 14:26:04 you might just experience something that commercial game devs experienced a few years ago. casual games rock :) 14:26:45 resp. there are more casual gamers than hardcore gamers and you need to be hardcore to play and win one of the big rls 14:26:47 I do think, that the fossil rls have a tremendous advantage in that they're actually known... they appeal to a different (and much smaller) potiential audience than the roguelikelets, of course. 14:27:48 bhaak: cannot have casual civ, strategy and roleplaying games, I'd think, and definitely no casual gods 14:28:09 03SamB * r7ab22d58062a 10/crawl-ref/source/Makefile: Factor the flags for inline dependency generation out into a variable. 14:28:40 yes 14:28:49 bhaak: I'd argue that hardcore roguelikes foster better communities, which is why I like crawl :P 14:28:55 fr: god of casualness, piety goes up with number of deaths in logfile 14:28:57 oh wow whoops i was requiring you to wear gourmand for 2k turns before it would take effect haha 14:28:57 but ... maybe those damn casual gamers don't know what they're missing :-D 14:29:43 bhaak: there is definitely a place for casual and for gateway games, no denying that 14:30:12 oh, SamB is a committer now? :) 14:30:18 Yes! 14:30:34 you should give him +v then ;) 14:30:40 that's true 14:30:40 Hired on the spot, after bugging us to look into an uncountable number of patches. 14:30:50 it was not uncountable 14:30:54 Zannick: I can't! 14:31:00 it wasn't even infinite! 14:31:18 !messages 14:31:19 (1/1) dpeg said (41m 2s ago): From what I've seen in Thasero's Vitalise commit message, everything seems fine. Any objections to use it? I phrased my initial problems with Vitalise a bit clumsily, sorry for confusion. 14:31:22 dpeg: :( 14:31:40 dpeg: the issue, as elliptic said, is that it MASSIVELY increases the food you get per piety 14:32:14 and as I understand, the plan for other changes is to increase Zin's piety flow not decrease, so it will be worse in the future 14:32:22 But what about Thasero's point that Kikubaaqudgha dishes out as much food/piety (not for Spriggans, of course). 14:34:06 Kiku granting food is problematic, yeah -- but you don't have any reasons to rely on her food most of the game. 14:34:06 Currently, the issue is that you can wait-feed Zin to actually gain piety. That's rubbish, of course. But once piety gain is changed, the nutrition value is not as crucial, imo. (Not that I'd mind reducing it.) 14:36:23 dpeg: yes. casual and hardcore cover don't have the same set of players (with some common players). maybe casual currently gets more press but i also don't think that hardcore will die because of casual 14:36:27 not really... there is only one reason you'd ever want to wait-feed, which is waiting out the wrath of another god at low XL 14:36:39 kilobyte: uh, what about getting 150 piety for free? 14:36:42 that's a reason too :P 14:37:04 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 14:37:19 -!- Xiberia has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:33 elliptic: you mean, with this patch? Yeah, that too. 14:37:49 didn't rwbarton even do that with TSO, like yesterday? 14:37:59 elliptic: with current feeding efficiency, you can't scum Zin's feeding 14:38:06 marvinpa: he used some small amount of food 14:38:11 right 14:38:11 kilobyte: yeah 14:38:38 i think he said 7 rations, in return for 150 piety, and then kill a small number of undead to hit 6* and bless a weapon 14:38:41 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 14:38:43 I agree with dpeg that it wouldn't be a big deal without piety-for-waiting, but I'd think it could be safely decreased anyway 14:38:59 marvinpa: it actually took him a really long time to get that small number of undead :P 14:39:07 heh 14:39:29 anyway yeah, it seems like clearly the main problem is just piety for waiting 14:39:54 however, for this patch it seems that the thing to do is to change the numbers so that it isn't free piety 14:40:01 I'd like to eliminate it right now for Ely and Zin. With TSO I just can't think of a good replacement. 14:40:13 what's stopping us for changing the good gods over to piety for exploration anyway? 14:40:18 the right numbers? 14:40:25 MarvinPA: unthematic, not that interesting 14:40:30 kilobyte: how are you supposed to get piety for zin then? 14:40:38 still seems like a strict improvement 14:40:42 wait until you get 8430753 ugly things midgame? 14:40:59 zin overhaul 14:41:08 spread his word, get piety 14:41:15 get your tongue cut off, get piety 14:41:32 elliptic: I really like that idea of a gold tax. Anything you pick up has 10% taken away and gives you piety. 14:41:33 kilobyte: it may be not interesting, but it is the most generic replacement for piety for waiting. Only instead of waiting, we expect the player to actually do something. 14:41:34 giving piety for recite is a little tricky to implement, I think 14:41:48 kilobyte: ah, that could be fine 14:42:08 piety for gold is also good, it is piety for exploration in disguise 14:42:08 dpeg: oh, and can be easily scummed if you can go to Hell or infinite levels 14:42:27 not in Hell, yes in Pan 14:42:55 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 14:43:00 kilobyte: what's the point of having stuff depend on the .d files, any idea? 14:43:08 We just need a formula that turns gold into piety. 14:43:10 if you're scumming pan for zin piety, you could probably just win anyway :P 14:43:12 Shield + twohander (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4671) by cerebovssquire 14:43:12 not as scummable as it's hard to walk to every pile of gold while there's opposition. With piety for exploration, just teleport randomly a few times. 14:43:27 'cause, you know, Make always tries to remake all makefiles 14:43:31 first thing 14:43:51 I guess I'm just asking in case there's some reason that I can't detect 14:43:51 dpeg: morgues have that information, we can divide gold found by duration to have a ballpark value 14:44:09 kilobyte: sounds like a scientific approach, I support that. 14:44:32 * dpeg usually resorts to voodoo dolls and reading entrails when he has to produce numbers for Crawl. 14:44:50 dpeg: is your /dev/random also lacking in entropy? 14:44:53 of course the rate at which you get gold changes a lot over the course of the game... but yeah, sounds doable 14:45:13 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:13 elliptic: of course, it'd be a curve 14:45:29 shall i leave the patch alone and let someone else push it once the piety changes are done, then? or push it minus the feeding for now? 14:45:34 (biased with Orc, though... kind of like Crypt does for TSO) 14:45:59 MarvinPA: I always think it is a nice touch towards patchers if their content ends up in the game. Think motivation etc. 14:46:00 MarvinPA: my problem with it is that feeding is almost as bad with piety changes 14:46:14 hmm. does it still get to be a curve if it's discrete? 14:46:19 yes 14:46:21 marvinpa: IMO push it with the feeding lessened to a reasonable amount... kilobyte can probably tell you the numbers to have it be comparable to current zin feeding 14:46:34 SamB: there is a whole subject called Discrete Geometry. 14:46:53 kilobyte: I think you're too worried here. Let's be generous at first and nerf later. Zin had enough of the reverse approach. 14:46:54 I lost my signal processing book, and I don't know if it even covered that... 14:47:05 (I think I lent it to someone) 14:47:12 the only thing piety changes would solve for feeding is Temple scumming, which hardly anyone does 14:47:13 SamB: lost in the noise? :) 14:47:52 no ;-) 14:48:05 kilobyte: don't know about but I caught _me_ piety scumming with Ely... lure the yaks over one by one, make sure it is slow etc. 14:48:09 Didn't feel good. 14:48:15 anyway... so, who can test w/ clang or ICC or whatever? 14:48:30 the non-scummer (ie, 99% of players) would have no need for food 14:48:52 kilobyte: presumably, although food reform and Hive-- might change that sometimes. 14:49:05 SamB: do you have your improvements somewhere? I have a working clang-trunk setup. 14:49:27 I hope I haven't changed anything yet 14:50:05 #4671 seems to be a matter of wielding a weapon from bare hands 14:50:27 (it's not that hard to get one, a matter of pulling two repositories: llvm and clang into llvm/tools/clang; ./configure --enable-optimized; make; su; cd tools/clang && make install) 14:50:39 SamB: ah, you already pushed, ok 14:51:24 kilobyte: I'm pretty sure that was just a refactoring, with no changes to the actual arguments passed to CC on *nix 14:52:21 I was only *thinking* about making more dangerous changes, so far 14:53:52 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:53:58 starting with nuking the whole thing and starting afresh, hopefully 14:54:06 actually no 14:54:37 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:55:01 hmm, clang reports a quite scary warning: ./monster.h:270:10: warning: 'monster::skill' hides overloaded virtual function [-Woverloaded-virtual] 14:55:32 which means actor->skill() doesn't work 14:55:35 but it might end up looking a lot different 14:56:00 is monster::skill a function or data? 14:56:06 function 14:56:28 is it possible it was intended to override actor::skill? 14:57:39 overloaded != overridden 14:58:06 making the function abstract makes gcc fail too 14:58:18 so the code from monster:: wasn't used 14:58:37 not that big a problem as monsters use skill for little 14:58:49 mostly, weapons of pain and elemental staves don't work 14:59:48 looks like monster::skill is considered an overload and not an override because it doesn't take an optional third argument 15:00:13 /usr/bin/ld: cannot find crt1.o: No such file or directory 15:00:13 /usr/bin/ld: cannot find crti.o: No such file or directory 15:00:13 clang: error: linker command failed with exit code 1 (use -v to see invocation) 15:00:40 omgwtf, lemme check if that's a regression caused by the newest commit or not 15:02:02 kilobyte: what was it trying to make at that point? 15:03:01 wait does gourmand auto-identify itself? 15:03:06 i thought it didnt 15:03:15 it does 15:03:20 it does, yes. 15:03:29 quite so 15:03:31 oh then i dont need this code to id it if it allows you to eat something 15:03:36 hehehehe 15:03:37 no 15:03:50 not a new failure 15:04:10 03kilobyte * r2c4cf21b4006 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc: Fix non-maxed mutations disappearing on a demonspawn upgrade. 15:04:20 03kilobyte * ra897a6ee4e53 10/crawl-ref/source/ (actor.h monster.cc monster.h): Fix monster::skill() not overriding actor::skill(). 15:04:53 kilobyte: good, good, because I've confirmed that I didn't actually commit the version where I had omitted a -c 15:05:26 please don't fix it just now, though 15:05:40 any suggestions on what to reduce the vitalisation feeding to? 15:06:29 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:08:33 kilobyte: hmm, how would I send stuff to the bit bucket in the makefile? 15:09:07 MarvinPA: not really, sorry. 15:10:10 oh, I've got it 15:10:13 tail -n0 15:11:34 Debian's unstable has only clang 2.9 which is no good for Crawl 15:11:51 marvinpa: if I understand things correctly, the vitalisation in the patch is 4 times as much food as a spriggan needs to break even 15:11:58 so reduce it by a factor of 5 at least :P 15:12:47 elliptic: :-P 15:12:57 spriggan -- or worse, anyone non-Tr non-Ce with a single ring 15:13:07 and keep the restriction on being less than full? 15:13:21 (or Ce with two, or Tr with four) 15:13:30 marvinpa: sure 15:13:49 kilobyte: Tr with 4 rings sounds OP 15:14:22 elliptic: you just need this one staff... 15:14:28 and a severed finger 15:14:35 SamB: <3 15:14:37 (specifically, Tr with 4 rings sounds like half an OP) 15:15:08 could alternatively raise vitalise piety cost 15:15:15 (for those who didn't get the staff reference, it's Goblins by Tarol Hunt) 15:15:31 does it actually cost 1 piety? most things are 1d2 or 1d3 piety 15:16:30 1d2 it looks like 15:16:40 yeah 15:17:23 which means it is only 8/3 times as much food as a spriggan needs, I believe 15:17:41 What do you think about Zin automatic taxation ("tithe") plus the option to part with remaining money ("absolution")? 15:17:56 so maybe only reduce by a factor of 4 if we want to be generous 15:18:53 dpeg: the second is already in (parting with half so you are not left penniless) 15:19:38 kilobyte: I know, that was my idea years ago. My question is about combining both, in true Roman-Catholic fashion. 15:19:45 <|amethyst> "indulgence" for the second, or is that a little too real-world? 15:19:46 * SamB wishes again that XP's "kill non-responding application" did the right thing with (remote) X11 windows 15:20:08 The pope will merrily play some HuPr at St Peter's. 15:20:13 03SamB * r34372462f607 10/crawl-ref/source/Makefile: Put the depgen/PCH/compilation rules into some semblance of order. 15:20:31 <|amethyst> SamB: does it kill the X server? 15:20:41 |amethyst: that is my assumption 15:21:08 I have not actually tried it 15:23:33 kilobyte: anyway, if you wanted to fix the clang error, go ahead now 15:24:24 trolls might need some compensation after this whole food reform goes through. losing being able to eat chunks to engorged is gonna hit them hard heh 15:24:35 SamB: I suspect it might be Clang not being able to cope with Debian multiarch changes, I pulled the new trunk of clang and I'm recompiling it to check 15:24:44 "food reform" sounds like some Soviet agricultural policy 15:25:02 Ryak: we'll see. We could also make gourmand stackable, so that Tr starts with two or so. 15:25:14 would you prefer "new nutrition rules"? 15:25:19 anyway i think im satisfied everything is working 15:25:23 BlastHardcheese: wait until devteam purges! 15:25:27 BlastHardcheese: yeah... and remember, these can't go without a massive shortage, and sometimes a genocide as well 15:25:40 kilobyte: I thought genocide was a nethack thing 15:26:12 fr: gulag vault in hell 15:26:53 dev team will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes 15:26:55 SamB: our genocide is harder. Ask any passing Grey Elf. 15:27:00 SamB: the Holodomor (ie, the "food reform" on Soviet-occupied Ukraine in 1930s) is usually called a genocide nowadays 15:27:24 kilobyte: I don't doubt it 15:27:25 kilobyte: yes. 15:27:41 we have 100% efficiency not 25%! 15:27:50 ok, 99.99%, there's a vault with a survivor 15:28:00 to mock at! 15:28:11 are you trying to tell me that that was not a good time to take a cheap shot at nethack and/or the idea of genocide WRT crawl? 15:28:20 ok the patch is up on the issue 15:28:41 I wouldn't make genocide jokes, too sensitive a subject 15:28:42 SamB: nah, it is always a good time to do that. 15:28:52 Can we add a Nazi background? 15:28:56 hmm 15:29:00 ghallberg: exactly :p 15:29:01 I'll make that an FR. 15:29:35 kilobyte: you know who else thought genocide was a sensitive subject 15:29:49 Given a monster_info mi, why do the following lines do different things? 15:29:51 mi.inv[MSLOT_WEAPON].get() 15:29:52 and 15:29:59 mi.mon()->weapon(0) 15:30:21 Beoghites having a duty to kill everyone non-orc, and orcs that don't follow The Party, is probably at the limit of what's acceptable 15:30:24 dtsund: maybe the mi is stale? 15:30:54 * dtsund shrugs 15:30:59 what is mi at that moment? 15:31:08 Monster being e[x]amined 15:31:09 I meant what type 15:31:11 BlastHardcheese: s/sensitive/sensible 15:31:17 monster_info 15:32:53 dtsund: mon() returns the real monster, leaking data 15:33:19 monster_info has a censored copy 15:33:25 ...aha. 15:34:20 Was wondering why they were different. 15:34:53 Thanks 15:36:42 I *really* hope doxygen caches these dot graphs somehow 15:38:09 03thasero * r5d34c6f1355d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files): Changes for Zin's Vitalise ability. 15:38:09 03MarvinPA * ra2dddd4acb9a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Make Zin vitalisation proactive instead of reactive, randomise the duration some, update descriptions 15:38:12 i better hurry up and finish my troll game before this gets implemented :p 15:38:17 03MarvinPA * r7c206facf0c6 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/ (ability.txt gods.txt): More Zin description updates 15:38:17 03MarvinPA * raf0ef4f192a9 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abl-show.cc godabil.cc): Reduce Zin vitalisation's feeding, allow using it while starving 15:39:06 MarvinPA: duration is randomised but independent of piety and Inv? 15:39:12 yeah 15:39:42 trolls should be an exception to food reform, they're more fun than ghouls anyway :P 15:40:36 Wensley: you mean, they should still be hungry all the time, yeah? 15:40:59 They don't need to be an exception so much as, er, possibly having base mutations adjusted to keep them the way they are 15:41:03 absolutely, but they should also be able to eat whatever they want, whenever they want 15:41:08 dpegs suggestion sounded like a reasonable thing to do for them 15:41:14 superfast hunger is fun :) 15:41:28 except poisonous things before they get immunity 15:41:41 now they can eat poisonous things too 15:41:51 theyll just get poisoned 15:41:59 hooray for regen! 15:42:06 hmm, true 15:42:15 I think my little sister already pointed that out to me, even 15:43:12 -!- mikee_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:44:32 it's quite shocking to see Tr with hunger 9 have no food issues while Ce with hunger 5 have bad ones 15:44:44 that's what the nutrition cap does 15:45:05 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:45:08 SamB: thank [god] for little sisters, eh? 15:45:29 ;-) 15:50:26 SamB: jpeg gave Crawl on a CD-rom as a christmas present to me once. :) 15:51:16 jpeg is your little sister? 15:51:56 yes 15:52:08 (I had noticed the names were suspiciously similar.) 15:59:22 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 16:00:11 03kilobyte * rf0572bc138fa 10/crawl-ref/source/mapmark.h: Fix a future crash on phoenix markers (not yet used). 16:01:36 hrm, clang currently fails to compile even "int main(){return 0;}" on Debian 16:02:04 I'm not exactly rushing to investigate this though 16:05:22 That sounds like a fairly serious bug, for a compiler. 16:05:44 syntax error: line 1 16:06:26 -!- mikee_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:08:56 that's K&R C, should be "int main(void){return 0;}" 16:09:24 although I suspect that's not the error, especially as I'd expect clang to recognise K&R C and at least give a warning, if not just compile it correctly 16:09:33 it's also correct C++, I think 16:09:42 ais523: wat 16:09:53 BlastHardcheese: there are multiple different versions of the C standard 16:10:12 foo() is valid C 16:10:17 and it's entirely valid for "int main(void)" and "int main()" to compile differently, as the first is modern C syntax, and the second is backwards-compatibility for pre-1989 C 16:10:55 in the case of main(), you're meant to declare it with exactly 0 or exactly 2 arguments 16:12:01 ais523: eh? the second is C, both old and modern 16:12:03 (or sometimes in POSIX, 3) 16:12:20 kilobyte: the second is permitted by C89 for backwards compatibility, and I suspect also by C99, although I'm less sure about that 16:12:25 foo(void) was added only because a certain old tool wanted it 16:12:32 no, definitely not! 16:12:38 s/wanted/needed/ 16:12:48 if you pass an argument to a function declared foo(), that's not an error 16:12:55 if you pass it to a function declared foo(void), that is 16:13:02 that's in C; C++ has it an error both ways 16:13:04 it's just like an empty block -- the syntax is {} not {something}. An empty list. 16:13:16 kilobyte: OK, now I'm going to have to look up a standard draft 16:13:45 the only point in foo(void) is to disambiguate K&R-style code 16:13:57 kilobyte: but that's important 16:14:24 also, IIRC function pointers of type int(*)() and int(*)(void) aren't compatible 16:16:25 * dpeg wonders what strange languages these funny fellows speak. 16:17:14 dpeg: I'm trying to correct kilobyte's statement about the details of version differences in the C standards 16:18:03 kilobyte: paragraph 6.7.5.3.14 in the C99 draft standard 16:18:28 An identifier list declares only the identifiers of the parameters of the function. An empty list in a function declarator that is part of a definition of that function specifies that the function has no parameters. The empty list in a function declarator that is not part of a definition of that function specifies that no information about the number or types of the parameters is supplied. 16:18:58 so apparently, int main(); is different from int main(void); but int main (){} is the same as int main (void){} 16:19:00 I never knew that 16:19:15 so which of us is right depends on context :) 16:19:25 the answer is 5 16:19:55 ais523: is that new in C99? 16:20:10 SamB: I think it's a C89 thing 16:20:16 but it's hard to find draft standards close to C89 16:20:24 whereas n1124.pdf (Google it) is known to be very close to C99 16:20:35 what the heck did I do with K&R... 16:20:35 (the actual published standards themselves cost loads of money, so I don't have a copy; the drafts don't) 16:20:39 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 16:20:53 K&R2 isn't a perfect description of the fine details of how C89 works, incidentally 16:20:58 I know that appendix isn't actually C89 16:21:02 (K&R1 is the best known description of "K&R C") 16:21:12 but it might give a hint 16:22:10 there's also this, in 6.11.6: "The use of function declarators with empty parentheses (not prototype-format parameter type declarators) is an obsolescent feature." 16:22:21 so the standard states outright that int main() { return 0; } is obsolete 16:23:55 do the things in function definitions count as declarators? 16:24:02 I mean, old style? 16:27:23 hmm right... so we have this syntax inconsistency for compatibility with old K&R code 16:28:00 Also, does the standard actually say that you can declare something other than main() with just () and define with (void) or vice-versa? 16:29:59 -!- R18 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:30:06 kilobyte: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.std.c/browse_thread/thread/ccd6b9c5c69f2740/c6504035e45d21d4 16:30:22 certainly for functions actually taking parameters, it does make a difference whether they are declared one way or the other, as far as the standard is concerned 16:30:26 that's the people whose hobby (and often, job) it is to argue out obscure details of C syntax to argue out that case in particular 16:30:34 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 16:30:44 hi 16:32:05 hi bmh! 16:32:26 their conclusion was that int main() { ... } is /technically/ ambiguous because they didn't define "equivalent", but only one definition of "equivalent" makes sense in context 16:33:09 dpeg: I noticed that there aren't any non-entry / non-end vaults for slime. 16:33:23 (main must have special rules, since it's allowed to have at least a 0 parameters or a 2 parameter definition, whereas any other function has to match its prototype/lack thereof 16:33:55 ais523: ... it looks like it's different in C++ 16:33:56 oh, and it can have the K&R- or the ANSI- style definition, right? 16:34:02 kilobyte: of course it is 16:34:12 kilobyte: it is different in C++, int main() { return 0; } is unambiguously correct there, I said that already 16:34:27 C++ isn't even compatible with all ANSI C, nevermind having to grandfather pre-ANSI C 16:34:42 ais523: in C, it is also correct, since there is no function overloading 16:34:52 kilobyte: have you read any of my links! 16:34:57 ais523: yeah 16:35:10 sure it's going to work in practice, because there's no sane way for a compiler to misinterpret it 16:35:20 kilobyte: When is crawl going to start using C++11? :) 16:35:34 ais523: foo() is compatible with all function pointers no matter the argument list, foo(void) is not 16:35:35 kilobyte: there must be some rules specifically designed to allow at least three variants of main 16:35:54 bmh: I think that's because most people just dive slime without stopping to enjoy the scenery :P 16:36:05 kilobyte: err, what? you mean "all function argument lists", right? 16:36:17 function pointers that differ even slightly are incompatible 16:36:19 at least two of which would not, as far as I can see, be call compatible in all systems... 16:36:24 but this argument's rapidly getting offtopic 16:36:26 Wensley: I was thinking of adding a bunch of panicked Kobolds trapped in slime 16:36:33 ais523: what was the topic? 16:36:36 SamB: the one with the third param is nonstandard 16:36:44 SamB: well, the topic of this channel is DCSS development 16:36:47 not corner cases in C and C++ 16:37:04 ais523: I was thinking "K&R 2-param, ANSI 2-param, 0-param" 16:37:15 ah, I see 16:37:21 and maybe the 0-param would be split into K&R and ANSI forms, too, I'm not sure 16:37:22 bmh: trapped behind transparent slime walls? :P also, I thought the AI didn't try to avoid slime walls, wouldn't they just die immediately? 16:37:27 I think the standard excludes K&R 2-param by mistake 16:37:38 after reading the relevant discussions 16:37:42 oh, well, that would be their mistake, yes 16:37:48 obviously compilers needed it at the time ;-) 16:38:02 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:38:02 Wensley: That's disappointing. 16:38:35 ais523: per what you linked to earlier, K&R definition that is followed by an actual declaration is equivalent to an ANSI one; while one that is a bare prototype is not 16:38:53 (bleh c!) 16:38:58 (which is pretty surprising, indeed) 16:38:59 kilobyte: only if there are no arguments 16:39:04 yeah 16:39:11 oh, it looks like int main() is optional? 16:39:14 with arguments, the calling convention is actually different if any are shorter than ints 16:39:17 bmh: I am not sure this is so bad (Slime vaults): you expect this place to be shapeless and amorphous. Most vaults would stick out. Monster assault vaults would be okay, of course. 16:39:25 SamB: correct K&R C is "main(){return 0;}" 16:39:29 but you'll be shot for writing that nowadays 16:39:32 dpeg: "assault vaults"? 16:39:33 (and C99 explicitly isallows it) 16:39:36 *disallows 16:39:46 dpeg: shapeless amorphous vaults would be ok too! 16:39:57 bmh: carefully selected monster arrangements 16:40:22 ais523: s/disallows/very very mildly depreciates/ 16:40:36 kilobyte: there's no "int", it definitely disallows that 16:40:48 dpeg: gotcha. Oh. I added another mean abyss exit. This one mixes executioners and unseen horrors 16:40:53 I think the next C (or maybe the one after that?) is probably going to give us "int ()" as shorthand for "int (void)" 16:41:26 ais523: ah, you're talking about return type not arguments. In that case, it is correct as the default return type is int. 16:41:34 bmh: thanks! Might take another two weeks until I can do my vault homework assignments. 16:41:42 kilobyte: in C89, indeed; in C99, you have to specify it, IIRC 16:41:53 kilobyte: in C89, indeed; in C99, you have to specify it, IIRC 16:42:00 ais523: hmm. I didn't think they took out the K&R support yet? 16:42:03 *testing with gcc, I get a warning in C99 mode but not C89 mode 16:42:04 just deprecated it... 16:42:15 SamB: K&R syntax is still allowed but deprecated, implicit int is killed with fire 16:42:20 $ echo 'main(){return 0;}' | gcc --std=c99 -pedantic -o/dev/null -x c /dev/stdin 16:42:22 /dev/stdin:1: warning: return type defaults to ‘int’ 16:42:25 ais523: huh 16:42:39 are you sure that's not just more deprecated than the rest of K&R ? 16:42:44 MarvinPA: would be good if I cleaned up the Zin page? 16:42:53 ais523: implicit anything is bad. 16:43:14 SamB: not completely, given that gcc is just giving me warnings not errors, /but/ the standard says that you can accept invalid programs with a warning 16:43:23 I really prefer writing `auto` to `vector::iterator` though... 16:43:25 and the fact that gcc is going out of its way to give warnings implies to me that it's been disallowed 16:43:29 ais523: point 16:43:46 bmh: make up your mind 16:43:50 especially as it doesn't give them in C89 mode 16:44:15 SamB: My preferences are orthogonal to something being 'bad' 16:44:32 also, go back to ASM 16:44:54 No thanks. 16:45:15 are you still sure that implicit anything is bad? 16:46:39 warnings in anything are bad 16:46:56 huh? what? 16:47:24 warnings generally mean "You're screwing up" 16:47:29 exactly 16:47:37 usually 16:47:51 or at least "you should make me go away so you can spot the ones that really do indicate you've screwed up" 16:47:51 Back when I was an undergrad the rule was "You compile with -Wall, if your code produces warnings we won't grade it" 16:49:46 -!- Ryak has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:53:42 bmh: which is wrong as there are many standards-compliant programs that produce warnings 16:54:03 kilobyte: if you're generating warnings in an undergraduate assignment, you're probably doing it wrong. 16:54:45 like the newest thing that angers me: the following line: write(1, "foo\n", 4); produces a warning 16:55:09 why? Because someone thought that ignoring the return value of that is an error. 16:55:16 ouch 16:56:02 another case: a && b || c 16:56:21 I think that's what -Wno is for 16:56:31 Crawl compiles with -Wno-parentheses, yeah, to restore sanity 16:56:47 and perhaps the rule never actually said "no -Wno-" 16:57:00 but -Wall will spew warnings for something that's basic operator precedence 16:57:16 though I can actually see the point of that one 16:57:27 I only recently really got that precedence straight 16:57:54 I would always parenthesize instead of figuring it out 16:58:12 MarvinPA: around? 16:58:22 on obscure points perhaps, but && vs || is about same as * vs + (which they from a mathematician's point of view they are) 16:58:39 true! 16:58:40 s/they // 16:58:54 kilobyte: That produces a warning? That's... lame? 16:58:56 so, anyway, my brain always gave me that warning before I even tried to compile 16:59:07 bmh: yeah! 16:59:07 write has a return value 16:59:11 If I wanted more parentheses, I'd still be writing scheme. 16:59:18 due: we know! 16:59:28 er 16:59:33 that should've been "write has a return value?" 17:00:01 "oh so all my c code should be if(!write(blah)) write("OMFG ERROR")?" ;) 17:00:08 due: writing to a descriptor other than stdout/stderr and not checking for errors is indeed a mistake 17:00:29 due: <3 17:00:58 :D 17:01:00 what it should really warn you for is that you never said you were using raw FDs and not for this application 17:01:59 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 17:02:41 what really gets me is that a warning saying that a flag is unneeded on a particular arch gets turned by -Werror into an error 17:03:02 even though really the "arch" in question is MinGW 17:03:51 SamB: ouch. 17:06:10 due: except that it returns -1 on error... 17:06:31 and, worse, might just decide not to write everything! 17:06:45 probably would be a good idea to use something a mite less finicky 17:09:57 well, yes, I use python :p 17:10:26 that would just about do it 17:10:51 * due has a certificate in Python black magic 17:17:42 book of the sky isnt properly ordered 17:17:48 after the flight downlevel 17:18:29 !tell MarvinPA Zin wiki page facelift. Feedback welcome. 17:18:33 dpeg: OK, I'll let MarvinPA know. 17:19:42 Hey, while you spend time talking in strange tongues, galehar might push ryak's food reform patch. 17:19:56 dpeg: Do you have any vault requests? 17:20:28 -!- alefury has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:28 -!- Mu_ has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:28 -!- paxed has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:28 -!- cbus has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:29 -!- Eifeltrampel has quit [*.net *.split] 17:20:29 -!- Napkin has quit [*.net *.split] 17:21:17 -!- ussdefiant has quit [*.net *.split] 17:21:17 -!- Brannock has quit [*.net *.split] 17:21:17 -!- UbAh has quit [*.net *.split] 17:21:18 -!- jeanjacques has quit [*.net *.split] 17:21:18 -!- lorimer has quit [*.net *.split] 17:21:18 -!- rax has quit [*.net *.split] 17:22:31 bmh: not really. I'd go with the des files of smallest size and check whether they want more vaults :) 17:23:05 dpeg: snake and slime are tiny 17:23:17 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 17:23:17 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 17:23:17 -!- Eifeltrampel has joined ##crawl-dev 17:23:17 -!- cbus has joined ##crawl-dev 17:23:17 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 17:23:17 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:23:17 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 17:23:17 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 17:23:17 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 17:23:17 -!- UbAh has joined ##crawl-dev 17:23:17 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 17:23:17 -!- rax has joined ##crawl-dev 17:24:37 -!- cbus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:24:41 -!- cbus has joined ##crawl-dev 17:26:00 bmh: okay for Slime, as I said but Snake (and Shoals?) could really use some help. 17:26:51 dpeg: how about a second Hall of Blades? 17:29:21 fine too 17:30:13 dpeg: "african_american_sheep" -- wow. 17:30:44 wut? 17:30:52 second hall of blades? 17:30:58 alefury: it's a vault in the shoals 17:31:12 but why? 17:31:14 alefury: Hall of Blades is just one big vault. 17:31:26 i missed some stuff due to the netsplit 17:31:31 hence the "wut?" 17:31:41 ill see if its in the logs 17:31:41 ah. 17:31:45 (it is) 17:33:02 ah, vaults 17:33:25 shoals vaults would feel a bit weird 17:33:49 should probably be kept small 17:33:56 why? you could have large islands with things on, for instance 17:34:09 I thought that shoals *couldn't* have vaults, or something, due to the custom layout gen 17:34:23 if its not affected by tides its weird, if it is affected by tides it has to be a really clever vault to work 17:34:32 dpeg: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2474&p=28623#p28623 17:34:32 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 17:35:08 mumra: just looked at the results of that tavern post where people were voting on implementables, and demigods lead the charge :) 17:35:16 alefury: couldn't you just make it so that the vault itself was on a large permaland/permadeep area, and the tides changed around it? 17:35:41 that would really stand out 17:35:50 ais523: yes, you can set heights in vaults. 17:35:55 could work if it is done well of course 17:35:56 how about a shoals vault with a nice item that will subject you to drowning if you try to grab it? 17:36:04 could have an alcatraz in shoals :P 17:36:06 drowning sucks :/ 17:36:09 alefury: well, a standing-out vault is fine, vaults tend to stand out anyway 17:36:16 My contempt for the player is obvious, isn't it? 17:36:23 bmh: that just sounds like a newbie trap to me 17:36:34 ais523: newbies don't make it to Shoals 17:36:49 how about a new feature that stops autoexplore, called a IF YOU GO AFTER THAT ITEM YOU WILL DROWN Statue 17:37:03 thus, newbie-friendly 17:37:03 bmh: well, then, it's a "kill people in their first game in Shoals unless they're spoilt" trap 17:37:13 I think it's a newbie trap in the sense of "spoilers or die first time", yes 17:37:14 which can be abbreviated to "newbie trap" because it means new to Shoals 17:37:17 Wensley: thanks for link. But now... Sif! :) 17:37:26 dpeg: that's next on my to-do list! 17:37:31 also, it'll be vulnerable to apportation, Fedhasing, and merfolk and ice form 17:37:32 ais523: ok ok, I'll figure something out that will kill people in the Shoals regardless of being spoilt :) 17:37:40 Can you drown while petrified? 17:37:40 bmh: this is not a healthy attitude 17:37:53 good question 17:37:55 how about a branch where you die instantly if you enter it 17:38:06 Adeon: Zig:2x? 17:38:15 bmh: nothing currently drowns you without you actively trying to drown, ignoring all warnings 17:38:17 this should not change 17:38:19 ais523: why not? A vault can certainly be made around a unique threat (e.g. monster combination). 17:38:29 If your vault features monsters but never kills anyone, it is a dud. 17:38:32 Adeon: I'm imagining a portal called "Enter if you'd rather be playing Nethack" 17:38:44 hi 17:38:46 dpeg: it's a case of "if you go here you will die, and you don't know that in advance" being really bad design 17:38:48 mumra: Hi! 17:38:54 isn't that what you call a no-brainer? 17:39:10 Wensley: it was partly because of that tavern post i started on demigods 17:39:21 Everyone in ##crawl-dev should know that such a vault would not make it into the game. If you don't know this, go to ##crawl. 17:39:24 mumra: here it is: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2474&p=28623#p28623 17:39:30 (for all the results) 17:39:37 dpeg: bmh actually suggested that earlier 17:39:44 I was trying to explain to him why it was such a shockingly bad idea 17:40:04 ais523: In the future, I'll add tags 17:40:44 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 17:40:49 Wensley: What will reliably petrify me? 17:42:07 Wensley: someone should add a trivial comment on the implementables item, to bring it to the top 17:42:15 bmh: being at low xl with a catlobe anywhere in sight 17:42:45 dpeg: on mantis? will do 17:43:37 Wensley: can advertise that mumra is doing DG, permanent buffs are on galehar's todo and point out that someone's needed for autopickup. 17:43:59 Since that's an interface change and not terribly urgent, it is good uploaded patch material. 17:46:04 "// should boost # of bangs per damage in the future {dlb}" -- sweet, there's a simple patch 17:50:46 dpeg: updated 17:52:06 dpeg: also, a lot of people ranked interface implementables very highly in that thread, but it's such a vague request that I think a more specific list of implementables might be preferable 17:52:31 yes, I know 17:53:00 Implementables were not made with a top ten in mind. Some of them are intentionally small and simple to lure folks into patching. 17:59:20 More lively lava damage messages (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4672) by brendan 17:59:40 dpeg: for vaults of that type, I hate all "warnings covered doors" for this exact reason 18:00:20 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:00:29 kilobyte: sorry, please explain 18:01:21 kilobyte: I'm not sure which type of vault you're talking about, but I don't like the marked doors either. 18:02:08 the "if you go here you will die" thing. Why would you die? That promotes spoilers. And breaks immersion as well -- who did post the warning? 18:02:29 kilobyte: about all vaults, who put the vault there? :o 18:02:44 who carved out the dungeon? 18:02:48 there's an entry vault with doors leading to clouds of fire and ice, that sometimes generates items inside 18:03:01 dpeg: would you be opposed to a vault full of "kobold miners" trapped in slime? 18:03:11 bmh: yes :) 18:03:12 there are slime entry vaults that hold a room full of jellies 18:03:31 Zannick: it's inconsistent to have both plenty of traps meant to kill and warnings to not go somewhere 18:03:37 kilobyte: but for this we don't need the warnings, I think. Autoexplore will do everything for you. 18:04:06 I don't think that a late Lair vault needs any warnings, personally. 18:05:22 kilobyte: i had never really thought of the dungeon as being specifically designed to kill whomever entered 18:06:06 alternately, it doesn't have to be whatever made the dungeon having put the warnings up 18:06:10 dpeg: that Slime entry vault with acid blobs behind glass would stop autoexplore due to seeing the blobs behind glass already, right? 18:06:46 particularly since there are gods and magic and portals to hell and pan and supposedly other adventurers 18:07:15 kilobyte: yes 18:08:38 -!- Henzell has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:09:41 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 18:09:58 in other news: raw data for duration:gold is at http://angband.pl/tmp/gold-dur 18:10:19 if someone could think of a nice formula 18:11:04 a linear match says there's 0.069 gold per turn 18:11:12 kilobyte: could you add that to the Zin wiki page? I am about to head off. 18:11:22 (removing a few outlier games, nasty farmers are nasty) 18:11:35 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.7/20100713130626]] 18:11:59 kilobyte: What do you want to use this formula for? Zin piety? 18:13:58 0.05 gold for games <50000 turns 18:14:12 yeah 18:16:24 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 18:17:04 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:07 Zin could use a bump, and current piety flow is woefully small until you start meeting chaotics, so it's more for knowing an approximation for status quo 18:19:00 kilobyte: we can fit any manner of regression to this, but I'm not sure how useful it will be 18:19:59 do you have a clue how to do this? I'm afraid I've forgotten any remnants of statistics I know. 18:20:14 R. 18:20:18 but yeah, it's dubious if that would get us anything 18:20:34 give me 10 minutes, I haven't used R seriously in nearly a year. 18:20:36 at most, it's about early vs late game 18:20:42 I have been enjoying the few games I've managed to pla recently 18:20:52 I haven't gotten further than D:5 or so though, been in too much of a rush. 18:20:56 probably not worth your time 18:21:37 due: right... neither of us is elliptic or the likes of him 18:22:10 :D 18:22:22 I haven't won since... 18:22:22 !won 18:22:23 due has won 5 times in 1385 games (0.36%): 1xHOFi 1xMDCK 1xMDFi 1xMfCK 1xMiMo 18:22:44 !lg due win 18:22:57 5. bookofjude the Grand Master (L27 MiMo), worshipper of Okawaru, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2009-10-07, with 1262019 points after 153867 turns and 12:28:07. 18:23:03 !won 18:23:03 kilobyte has won 16 times in 7973 games (0.20%): 1xCeDK 1xDDFi 1xFeAE 1xFePa 1xGhCK 1xHOPr 1xKeAE 1xKoBe 1xMDFi 1xMfWr 1xMuFi 1xOgHu 1xSpAE 1xSpBe 1xTrIE 1xVpTm 18:23:21 you still have nearly double my win rate :p 18:23:39 2009, though 18:23:58 !won 18:23:58 bmh has won once in 969 games (0.10%): 1xSpCK 18:24:41 kilobyte: You know, you're right. This isn't worth my time. Just use the linear formula :) 18:25:31 I really need to win a Spriggan one of these days. 18:25:34 My las tbest one I suicided. 18:25:58 I'm going to take a stab at a merfolk. 18:27:50 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:28:03 !lg max=sc ktyp!=winning 18:28:03 1380. bookofjude the Politician (L27 SpBe), worshipper of Trog, blasted by an orb of fire (fireball) on Zot:5 on 2009-06-29, with 571317 points after 143877 turns and 8:33:34. 18:28:09 --^ Stupidity. 18:28:25 due: how do you ask Sequell for a player's game? 18:29:22 !lg ? 18:29:22 Malformed argument: ? 18:29:31 !lg dlk max=sc ktyp!=winning 18:29:31 1917. dlk the Conqueror (L27 HECr), worshipper of Ashenzari, blasted by a greater mummy (divine providence) in Zig:26 on 2011-08-07, with 1206816 points after 169556 turns and 19:56:53. 18:29:31 is optional; if you don't pass it, it defaults to you. 18:30:06 kilobyte: so, does Crawl's Makefile always require a copy of GCC to generate those .d files? 18:32:03 any compiler with a cc's style interface will do, it's just misnamed in the Makefile 18:32:30 every single project I know other than Crawl names the variable $CC 18:32:36 yeah 18:32:39 that is usual 18:32:44 that reminds me to see if I can compile crawl via vbcc 18:32:52 or even tcc :D 18:33:00 due: tcc is C not C++ 18:33:18 so, why do we even use inline dependancy generation? 18:33:20 due: is the shop vault syntax documented anywhere? 18:33:46 ??dodging 18:33:47 dodging[1/2]: First, halve the part of your dex over 24, and then halve the part over 34. Then your base EV is 10 + size_factor + (7 + dodging * new_dex) / (20 - size_factor). Apply armor/shield penalties, then halve the part over 30, and then halve the part over 50. Then apply randarts, rings, and merfolk/kenku bonuses. Go stepdowns! 18:33:48 kilobyte: oh, hm, I thought there was a t++ but apparently not 18:33:48 about Zin: screw accuracy, there is a pretty small error if we take that 1 tithed gold = 1 piety 18:33:54 dpeg: I... uh... no. 18:34:02 dpeg: Give me a moment to jog my memory. 18:34:11 due: tiny && C++ compiler == does not compute 18:34:26 ask any C++ compiler author 18:34:31 a fun thing with tcc is that tcc --run starts _faster_ than a bash or perl script 18:34:48 (I am not one, but I have spoken with at least one) 18:35:05 due: you've committed something using it, so you're the natural culprit. 18:35:06 I am currently learning compiler mechanics in order to target a specific VM platform! 18:35:09 <-- Insane. 18:35:11 kilobyte: how about a dash script? 18:35:18 dpeg: I mean, I need to check the source 18:36:01 sleep here 18:36:04 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 18:36:10 due: what are you targetting? msvbvm50.dll? 18:37:01 SamB: no, glulx 18:37:08 due: awesome 18:37:27 SamB: I mean, I am ... quite fluent in Inform, but it is really an art-house programming language /that has nothing nice/. 18:37:45 And there is no reason that I can see why glulx would not support a language with more complex/dynamic types. 18:37:48 I have the manual on the shelf beside me 18:37:54 Me too :) 18:38:06 or, well, it's supposed to be there 18:38:07 http://wxwhatever.com/mat/11 <-- I just finished writing this last month, in Inform 6. 18:38:22 does that also have a manual? 18:38:25 But ... it was 70% Python and 30% Inform. And the blend just doesn't work. 18:38:29 No, it is a game! 18:38:43 I mean, my manual is for Inform 5 18:38:48 It used a lot of esoteric code-generation to accomplish repeititive and annoying tasks. 18:38:55 Ah, Inform 6 is Inform 5+1. 18:39:01 I know what it is 18:39:08 I think Inform Designer's Manual 4 targets Inform 6. 18:39:18 So if you have DM3 you need DM4! 18:39:24 no I don't 18:39:28 Oh. 18:39:35 well, it might be nice 18:39:37 I dunno 18:39:58 but I find Inform 5 more entertaining to read about ;-) 18:40:19 DM4 is one of my favourite programming language books -- jQuery in Action is my other. 18:40:22 Anyway dpeg's shops. 18:43:43 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:43:59 kilobyte: maybe we should just use the dependancy-generation snippet from: (make) Automatic Prerequisites 18:44:07 and scrap this whole "inline" deal 18:44:44 a key aspect is the part where the .d file ends up specifying *two* targets, foo.d and foo.o 18:45:11 so nobody has to run "make depend" 18:45:21 SamB: I'd rather remove the "non-inline" mode 18:45:37 much faster this way, you don't have to parse everything twice 18:45:52 well, it doesn't actually need to *parse* everything the first time anyway 18:46:12 but don't we kind of need support for compilers that can't manage it? 18:46:33 I mean, parse preprocessing directives, yeah 18:46:50 argh where did dpeg go 18:46:54 clang can do it too, msvc does need a project file anyway 18:46:59 due: to bed 18:47:11 either way, we should make sure the .d files end up specifying their own dependancies, too 18:47:18 due: I'm listening though, was looking at that page on the devwiki myself :P 18:47:20 I think 18:47:26 gah 18:47:27 * SamB is not sure 18:47:37 okay, I give up on this whole thing for now 18:47:40 the syntax coded definitely differs to the syntax available though 18:47:43 I can't think straight about it anymore ;-) 18:48:00 and if .d files are not there, unless you removed them by hand you need to compile everything anyway 18:48:17 I think we need to get rid of the $(shell ls 18:48:19 though 18:48:19 they can only speed up re-compilation 18:48:35 heh yeah 18:49:15 name: type: suffix: count: greed: [; item1 | item2 | item3 | item4 | item5 ] 18:49:26 * kilobyte whispers something about autotools doing all this kind of stuff without a need for reinventing. 18:49:40 Unable to quit program without saving if character name is specified as option. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4673) by meldavis 18:49:51 kilobyte: if you want to autotoolify the tree ... 18:50:03 you probably don't actually remember how to do it, honestly 18:50:06 -!- Ryak has joined ##crawl-dev 18:50:09 Where are we putting vault definition documentation these days? 18:50:13 but you DO know where to find the manuals ;-) 18:50:21 still docs/develop/levels/syntax? 18:50:35 due: and the other files in that directory 18:50:53 due: does it randomly generate a shopkeeper name for your custom shops? 18:51:07 there was some mention of keeping it on the wiki, but that's crazy-talk... 18:51:37 Wensley: it does, yes 18:51:43 SamB: it's not much work, the only reason I didn't autotoolify is that at least by and doy love autoconf about as much as Hitler did Jews. 18:52:16 kilobyte: do it in a branch and see if the results are tolerable 18:52:56 or ... something 18:53:52 I was/…...........................4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~4~ 18:54:03 what ? 18:54:04 cat on keyboard, sorry 18:54:07 is that Perl? 18:54:41 hey, how the heck it type "…"? 18:54:58 hit compose or something? 18:55:12 or just auto-substitution? 18:55:40 right, Compose . . 18:55:56 fits with the dots afterwards 18:56:21 * SamB wishes something, but he forgets what 18:56:25 so we can expect the next demon to have Unicode characters :p 18:56:46 I already suggested we start using some of the JIS double-width characters ;-P 18:57:09 oh, yes 18:57:42 due: do we really want all of these call graphs in the doxygen output? 18:57:49 they seem to take forever to generate 18:59:43 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 19:00:07 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Nine out of ten l33t h4x0rz prefer it] 19:00:42 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:01:13 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:02:59 SamB: meh, I think they could get dumped 19:03:03 ??Cao 19:03:04 cao[1/1]: Main Crawl server, located in Boston, MA. USA, http://crawl.akrasiac.org/ or crawl.akrasiac.org ssh port 22 ssh-username:joshua ssh-password: joshua. Runs the latest stable release, trunk, Zot Defense, and robotfindskitten. Further information on the website and ??putty entries for Windows users. Also see http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/howto 19:03:12 hm 19:03:14 ??cdo 19:03:19 cdo[1/4]: Crawl server (also running development versions), located in Germany, crawl.develz.org, telnet port 345 or ssh port 22, ssh-username: crawl, ssh-key necessary: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/cao_key (openssh) or http://crawl.akrasiac.org/cao_key.ppk (putty) 19:03:20 due: let me see if restricting the graph depth to 3 helps... 19:04:10 la de da 19:04:12 it's really too bad the graphs can't be generated on demand :-( 19:05:01 -!- Vandal has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:05:04 hmmm 19:05:51 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 19:06:06 -!- st_ has quit [] 19:10:06 Hmm, I may have asked already, but: what do you think about giving Zot Defence players some T&D skill to start with? 19:14:25 SamB: it might be "crazy-talk" but i've actually already spent a lot of time putting all those docs on the wiki (with approval of dpeg and others, before kilobyte or yourself raised objections) and done a lot of work updating them and improving them; i'd like to get the debate resolved, since i've stopped doing any work improving the docs until i know whether it's a waste of time or not, but currently there are two sepa 19:14:49 mumra: cuts out on "separ" 19:14:52 mumra: certainly your work is appreciated, and could be quite useful 19:15:15 ... two separate versions of the docs getting updated which is clearly in nobodies interest ;) 19:16:11 hmm 19:16:44 btw; did you commit the lua doc patch? 19:17:06 I guess if we kept it in docuwiki format in the repository, that would waste your conversion code, though, wouldn't it? 19:17:30 no, I didn't yet 19:17:41 it seemed a bit more potentially controversial than the other stuff 19:18:03 I could push it into a branch if you like ;-) 19:18:10 i didn't work on the conversion code yet - at the moment it's just a 3rd party text export plugin 19:18:21 ah 19:18:23 but it doesn't format the docs particularly nicely 19:19:04 it would be really nice if we could use the same format on the wiki and in the repository somehow 19:19:15 and merge back/forth as desired 19:19:46 so that the more technical aspects could be kept synchronized with the corresponding code, even in branches 19:20:49 personally, i'm happy with text saying "From version 0.10, ..." on new function references, but some people thought this would be annoying (i find it's pretty common in a lot of API documentation tho) 19:21:17 that way, the latest version of the docs are a complete reference to *any* version of vaults you might be looking at 19:22:07 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:23:14 those who code / accept patches for the functionality to be documented would benefit from keeping a copy in the repo 19:23:59 I have no problem with attempting to document ~ when some feature became available 19:26:20 it just works better for things that haven't even hit trunk yet to have the code with the docs 19:26:23 you know? 19:27:06 I don't suppose we could use Markdown or ReST or something like that? 19:27:58 Are there, like, DokuWiki plugins for those maybe? 19:28:26 dokuwiki seems fairly slim on plugins 19:28:37 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 19:28:51 tbh, there is probably a wiki with plugins for exactly this scenario 19:28:57 How ugly is raw dokuwiki text? 19:29:00 and if there isn't, there should be ;) 19:29:38 there are wikis that use those syntaxes natively ;-) 19:29:51 it's not too ugly, but it's certainly not as readable or well-formatted as the current text docs 19:29:57 and there might be a wiki that's designed to work with documentation in a code repository 19:30:04 there is a wiki built on git 19:30:09 gitit, yes 19:30:15 or did you mean something else? 19:30:24 https://github.com/sr/git-wiki 19:30:33 hmm 19:31:11 gitit seemed nice, except it didn't support setting the wiki to only use a subdirectory of the repository 19:31:17 and stuff like that 19:31:56 http://ikiwiki.info/ 19:32:19 seems there are quite a few, i guess it's an obvious application of version control tho ;) 19:34:21 does git support subrepositories? 19:35:14 submodules are subrepositories 19:35:16 you can host the docs in their own wiki repository, and link that in as a subrepo in crawl - then merge between them regularly 19:35:28 you can also do subtrees which are... a thousand times nastier. 19:36:45 I think putting them in a subrepository would be painful 19:37:21 I'd rather find a wiki that can be configured to use a subdirectory of the repository 19:37:44 but, that would mean you'd get commit messages in the main repository every time someone edited the wiki 19:37:50 commit spam :) 19:38:29 anyway, it could easily use a clone and then merge batches of docs to solve that 19:39:04 it doesn't seem like it'd be hard to modify one of these wikis to use a subdirectory 19:39:07 how much editing do you expect to see on these few pages? 19:39:39 it's just that you're effectively giving commit rights to the general public (even if only on a small number of files) 19:39:53 what if someone decided to spam the wiki with a bot? 19:40:09 note that I'm also totally okay with keeping the manual on the main wiki in some form or other 19:40:37 well, we could try using recaptcha ... 19:40:51 then it's just annoying to edit :) 19:41:22 a bit, yes 19:41:44 i think it'd be safer to have the wiki use a clone, it's easy to quickly verify the changes and merge them, actually easier than veifying a mantis patch 19:41:59 but less of a showstopper than being expected to learn the intracies of version control (and git's interface) 19:42:15 or, yeah, merging might help too 19:42:27 the thing is, rebasing probably wouldn't please the wiki engine 19:42:33 who is being expected to learn the intricacies of version control? 19:43:06 I suppose they could always send a patch against a non-specified version of crawl... 19:43:08 i think the wiki engine can be easily pointed to a subdirectory with a simple code change 19:43:31 anyway, that was for the "no wiki" scenario 19:44:23 in the "no wiki" scenario there'd be no point in changing anything ... 19:44:59 well, I figured that the main reason for wikifying was that we wanted to make it easier to contribute 19:45:11 maybe that's not so 19:45:33 yes but i don't understand the "no wiki" scenario, how would people contribute then? 19:45:42 that's what we have/had 19:46:02 ah sorry 19:46:37 essentially I was saying "a wiki with captchas is better than nothing" 19:46:38 i just backtracked and realised i misunderstood your "showstopper" sentence 19:46:38 and it all makes sense now 19:46:38 hehehehe 19:47:34 also, recaptcha is really irritating me these days - usually 1 of the 2 words is completely indecipherable 19:48:00 I *do* wish they hadn't added the garbling filters, yes 19:48:11 and/or untypeable - foreign characters instead 19:48:19 a lot of the stuff is hard enough to read without being artificially garbled 19:48:28 oh, yeah, that doesn't help 19:48:49 sometimes I wish there was a way to specify that one of the words was upside-down 19:49:08 so they'd go back and try OCRing that page the other way round instead 19:49:21 yeah they need to have a bigger box so you can describe it in words if you just can't spell it 19:49:43 I just meant like checkboxes or something 19:50:49 of course, if the word was actually unusable as a captcha, they probably ought to give you another 19:51:13 so you can demonstrate that you aren't just saying that so you can effectively collude with the other spam-bots ... 19:52:25 anyway i realise there are other less annoying captchas around but still, someone could basically go and edit a page and write "Buy viagra on our website:" and it'd show up in the commit log, on CIA announcements, etc. 19:52:43 true 19:53:04 so not having it go directly through to crawl/crawl.git would, indeed, be wise 19:54:16 i realise the chances of abuse are low, but i'd see it as a gaping security hole 19:55:44 anyway, keep up the good work ;-) 19:59:15 I'm sure we'll figure *something* out 19:59:59 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:00:16 03SamB * r23f9660d9675 10/crawl-ref/source/Makefile: Note that the PCH support in Makefile lacks dependency generation. 20:02:25 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:06:40 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:07:45 yeah there must be a way - hmm, Trac wiki supports reST ... 20:11:53 I'm not sure using their ReST support is worthwhile 20:12:24 ISTR it being somewhat klunky 20:12:50 it'd be nice for people to be able to easily preview the reST manual after edits, for instance 20:14:03 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:14:11 that would be nice, yes 20:15:02 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 20:16:59 and would even work as long as TRAC's ReST plugin wasn't broken 20:22:08 03SamB * r996cf305ef10 10/crawl-ref/source/crawl_all.doxy: Don't do wholesale call/caller graphs, even for doxygen-all. 20:22:13 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 20:26:44 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 20:28:49 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: Stay sane inside insanity!] 20:30:24 -!- mumra has quit [Quit: offski] 20:41:39 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:42:16 hmm 20:42:45 * SamB looks at https://www.ohloh.net/p/stonesoup/contributors?query=&sort=oldest and wonders how many of these people were still around after the git transition 20:47:58 due: oh, would you be interested in looking at the luadoc branch by any chance? 20:48:41 I just pushed it, but CIA's commit hook doesn't notice new branches the first time 'round 20:50:10 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 21:05:43 SamB: gaah if I have time later this week, I will check it out 21:05:47 SamB: pester me again tomorrow! 21:05:53 otherwise I will forget; I am terrible like that 21:05:56 'kay 21:11:21 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:34:09 03SamB * r9c67d0f54027 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc: Zotdef: Give everyone two free levels of Traps & Doors. 21:44:51 so, how are updates rolled out to cao/cdo, anyway? 21:49:58 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 22:05:52 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:09 03SamB * rf0ded9d569a4 10/crawl-ref/source/crawl_all.doxy: Doxygen: limit graph depth to 3. 22:06:20 03SamB * r45657fb41690 10/crawl-ref/source/menu.cc: Doxygen: put ASCII-art diagram in 
 tag
22:10:16  SamB: hm, you have commit bit?
22:10:23  due: yeah
22:10:25  ah
22:10:28  I thoguth so
22:10:32  But I have been lax in reading my email
22:10:53  Game wont let me create multiple charcters. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4674) by Ineid
22:10:53  tada
22:10:59  IT'S. LIKE. MAGIC.
22:11:03  hehehe
22:11:59  http://wxwhatever.com/due/0001-Update-documentation-for-vault-shop-definitions-dpeg.patch
22:12:01  can someone remind me to commit that
22:12:05  I don't have gitorious on here
22:12:08  (This machine)
22:15:13 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.]
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22:36:45  !tell due <@due> http://wxwhatever.com/due/0001-Update-documentation-for-vault-shop-definitions-dpeg.patch <@due> can someone remind me to commit that
22:36:46  Zannick: OK, I'll let due know.
22:36:50  due: ;)
22:39:03 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
22:57:18 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
23:00:09  03SamB * r1058d31b92ce 10/crawl-ref/source/ (menu.cc menu.h): Tweak/punctuate/add doxygen comments in menu.h and menu.cc.
23:05:20 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev
23:09:10  TADA
23:09:10  due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
23:09:15  !messages
23:09:18  (1/1) Zannick said (32m 32s ago): <@due> http://wxwhatever.com/due/0001-Update-documentation-for-vault-shop-definitions-dpeg.patch <@due> can someone remind me to commit that
23:10:09  03due * r2445df156379 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/levels/syntax.txt: Update documentation for vault shop definitions (dpeg).
23:10:46  !tell dpeg Okay, I updated the documentation for you. You'll need to test any shop stuff in-game first, though, as I can't be sure all my examples are absolutely correct.
23:10:46  due: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
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