00:03:17 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-961-g79a7ee3 (32) 00:07:39 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:18:54 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-961-g79a7ee3 02:07:52 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:10:59 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:11:27 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 02:21:48 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 02:21:49 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:22:00 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 02:27:57 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:39:01 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-961-g79a7ee3 (32) 02:45:59 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:59:55 Freezing Water Tiles (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4629) by Targal 03:00:57 oh, hey, Tm still starts with potions 03:01:10 let's fix that 03:08:32 03elliptic * r7fcbb5d96e68 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc: Remove the starting potions from Transmuters. 03:10:00 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 03:27:57 so, how about thrashing Stalker? 03:28:14 incidentally, this would bring back the number of backgrounds to 27... 03:30:45 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:30:54 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:31:44 well, if stalker is deleted then there will be no place for fulsome/evap... and although I wouldn't mind removing them too, I think that's probably pretty controversial 03:31:49 stalkers are good, you can actually play a stabber that isn't hex based 03:33:08 evilmike: stalker is dominated by evap currently and petrify/passwall are pretty poor stabbing tools 03:33:53 I was mostly thinking of ashenzari passwall stabbers, but yeah, they're mostly just a class that evaporates potions 03:34:47 EE has passwall, even if it has better tools to use also 03:35:03 EE has petrify too 03:36:09 03elliptic * r2df84eff6885 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc: Make Transmuters start with Beastly Appendage memorized. 03:36:10 oh yeah, I completely forgot EE had those, heh 03:36:17 I was thinking of them only as the class that blows up stuff with LRD 03:36:52 sometimes they blow up petrified stuff! 03:39:28 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:41:54 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 03:44:49 How about not teleportitis not kicking in when resting? 03:44:53 -not 03:45:01 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 03:45:30 I'll repeat for galehar: How about teleportitis not kicking in when resting? 03:45:47 if St goes, how about we remove fulsome but keep evap? With the limited resource, it might become a more interesting and balanced spell. 03:46:00 Keskitalo: why? 03:47:20 My character has a situation where I know Control Teleport and have teleportitis. It's really annoying to heal up, but when in combat the situation is interesting - I'm sometimes short of MP when cTele expires, so it creates this threat of random teleport in the middle of combat. 03:48:42 You could say the mutation only kicks in when you move your body, but if you are still you are safe from it. 03:49:08 (I know there are plans for "perma-casting" buffs, that would solve the issue too I guess.) 03:49:58 Of course, you'd lose the threat of teleporting into a sticky situation while trying to heal up after action. 03:50:30 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 03:51:10 Alterantel y we could link it to tension. 03:51:28 On dropping Fulsome: sounds interesting to me. I think dropping Evap level to 1 was suggested yesterday as a compensation for removing it. 03:51:37 due: Yeah, that might work too. 03:51:53 OTOH, maybe it'd have a tendency to 'port you *out of* situations, not into them. 03:55:04 Keskitalo: another idea for cTele and teleportitis: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4182 03:55:53 * galehar crushes dpeg against the wall. 03:56:06 oh sorry. I was trying to say hi and got carried away 03:56:11 acciaccatura! 03:57:54 * dpeg is gone but leaves a few nicely coloured spots on the wall. 03:58:36 What about the idea to make Fulsome'd potions temporary? Would it only compound the problem? 04:00:12 nasty inventory management, have to remember which one will expire, etc 04:00:31 I'd either leave the spell or keep it, but stay simple 04:00:57 * dpeg finds the idea of filling bottles from corpses to be ... strangely attractive. 04:02:18 galehar: Ah, non-instant 'ports from the mut, dpeg did mention that yesterday I remember now. 04:04:05 So my proposal is simple: remove St and fulsome, keep evap as it is now. 04:05:25 I see it coming. I'll have to invent a bottle god to fulfill my fulsome dreams. 04:05:52 let's whip due until he makes the Homunculus spell! 04:06:09 kilobyte: no no. First we have to whip him into updating the holy wiki page! 04:06:27 hmm perhaps... my attempt at cherubs sucks so much 04:07:00 due: the new holy monsters have been added to the ziggurat. We reaaaaaally need your guiding hand for going on. 04:07:06 I tried to differentiate them from angels but ended up with daevas with smite replaced by self-heal and missile weapons 04:07:25 Wasn't there a plan for a selfless holy monster that heals other holies? 04:07:35 paladin 04:08:09 There was that centaur paladin tile :) 04:08:15 also, apises are marked as "finished", yet I'd replace TSO retribution with Elyvilon's one 04:08:37 dpeg: I was thinking that Fulsom and Evap could also be non-spells, like god abilities or misc items :) 04:09:30 dpeg: btw, constriction + reaching polearms will be nice in Snake 04:09:32 pretty much just healing nearby hostiles, dulling weapons would be too tedious for something that's hard to avoid. Abandoning her is a conscious decision no one forced you to, killing a monster that's attacking you not really. 04:09:51 can we get invisible/blink_close naga stalkers? :) 04:10:12 Keskitalo: everyone will use see invis then... 04:13:29 That'd be a bit boring, yeah. 04:17:03 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:19:44 Keskitalo: yes, I agree. Also a Evap spell on its own can be interesting, it uses a finite resource nows. 04:20:20 3 unique pan lord vaults (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4630) by evilmike 04:21:06 The proper approach to stalking enemies is that they're actually not shown (i.e. not just invisible) and you have a chance of detecting increasing with T&D or something. In the worst case, they appear next to you. 04:23:55 if evap is a spell and fulsome isn't, no one will use it. or if they use it, there will be extreme tedium 04:24:06 memorize evap -> go around the whole dungeon picking up those formerly useless potions 04:25:53 it's also a popular seaside resort 04:25:56 Hey, I actually had a bottle god once. With a power called Potion Petition even. 04:26:20 um ... don't know what happened there 04:27:29 morning! 04:27:48 I assumed that Evap is a popular seaside resort. Morning! 04:28:14 evilmike: hmm, good point 04:28:33 so both spells should go on one boat: either sink or stay 04:28:53 you could make is so you can just *throw* bad potions (and produce only a small number of clouds) 04:29:47 nethackish, but if they went into the quiver it could be doable 04:29:51 more clouds with throwing skill? maybe non-needlestab characters would actually train throwing... 04:30:02 Hm, would be a huge improvement on the interface side. Currently, you have to press z [spell letter] [item letter] + targeting. 04:30:17 kilobyte: yes. I managed not to say the evil word :) 04:30:46 evilmike: sounds good 04:31:25 I think, with FD you currently get all the potions for free. Shouldn't there be some skill investment to get the top tier ones? 04:32:42 butbutbut potion throwing is on the won't do list ;)' 04:33:20 if you want potion throwing without FD, you can just rely on luck for top tier potions (aka decay) 04:34:18 i can't find a link on the wiki to the won't do list 04:37:09 ... now i can ;) 04:38:11 evilmike: and conversely, if your Throwing is high, you'll always carry some potions. 04:38:16 Keskitalo: *firing* potions (from quiver) isn't on there ... 04:39:23 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 04:44:02 !send alefury furious ale. 04:44:03 Sending furious ale. to alefury. 04:48:59 Beastly appendage should be one of the checks in form_can_wield. 04:50:13 Fyren: it doesn't interfere with weapons 04:51:32 That's why it should be one of the checks, it defaults to false. 04:51:44 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: sleep] 04:51:45 ... 04:51:47 oh right 04:51:53 thanks :) 04:51:55 I tested it only on Tm :p 04:52:26 and hi 04:56:32 what's the proper way to keep my crawl clone (on gitorious) in sync with origin? do i need to make it track origin/master? 04:58:05 Btw, Thasero is getting close with the Vehumet patch. So much unexpected content. :] 05:00:04 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-963-g2df84ef 05:00:04 is there a rough aim for when 0.10 will be released? 05:00:14 kilobyte: So did I, I think it prevented butchering because it thought I couldn't wield? 05:00:21 mumra: there is a precise aim! 05:00:41 January, I think. 05:04:14 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- IRC with a difference] 05:04:30 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:05:34 ok that's loads of time ... there could be a lot of new stuff 05:06:45 mumra: oh, we have enough new content... I am more worried about polish and balance. (If all get ready in time: spider, octopodes, constriction, demigods, Vehumet and I've definitely forgotten something.) 05:08:29 yeah, i meant it's loads of time (at least, enough time) to polish all of that :) 05:09:26 If we're lucky, we even get a species removal! 05:09:46 mumra: the date is on the planning 05:10:14 (why did I read the new Tm spell as Breastly Appendage?) 05:11:08 galehar: because you're not obsessed with fulsomely destillation? :) 05:11:10 ^Breastillation 05:11:20 galehar: so it is - don't know why i didn't see that 05:12:48 mumra: made it easier for you 05:19:54 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:38:08 03kilobyte * rae87eda9d91e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files in 2 dirs): Allow setting mon_ench duration to infinite. 05:38:08 03kilobyte * rbc5053e8c6db 10/crawl-ref/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Add ench: and perm_ench: to MONS specs. 05:38:08 03kilobyte * r24a8700735da 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_features.des: Simplify a vault. 05:38:17 03kilobyte * rc04543471e87 10/crawl-ref/source/transform.cc: Add Breastly Appendage to forms allowed to fly as kenky and wield weapons. 05:38:18 03kilobyte * r198febd80463 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Set monster berserk duration in add_ench() so MONS ench:berserk works as expected. 05:40:11 Have we heard anything about the food patch lately? 05:40:46 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 05:40:51 regarding 0.10 content, are permabuffs planned for 0.10? 05:41:45 since 3 minutes ago, you can request "stone_giant perm_ench:berserk perm_ench:deflect_missiles perm_ench:haste", so kind of yes :p 05:42:09 heh, nice. But I did mean for players 05:42:42 also i think that feature should be used sparingly, because messing with known monsters is not cool 05:43:26 will be useful for Demigods; e.g. perm_ench:slow for Chei minions :) 05:44:27 yeah, its great for special opponents 05:44:54 might be nice for wizlab bosses too 05:45:05 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 05:45:22 like the sky mage could have dmsl if you want to be mean :) 05:45:29 *cloud mage 05:46:00 is this a bug: "reaching attacks don't extend rage like normal attacks do"? 05:47:05 @??spriggan air mage 05:47:05 spriggan air mage (11i) | Speed: 16 | HD: 14 | Health: 33-54 | AC/EV: 1/25 | Damage: 16 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible, fly, DMsl | Res: 06magic(130), 10elec++ | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1466 | Sp: airstrike (0-38), b.lightning (3d19), swiftness, shock (d16), haste. 05:47:14 already there 05:47:53 the cloud mage is based on a spriggan air mage? 05:48:40 hmm no, a renamed wizard or something 05:49:02 the cloud mage predates spriggans 05:49:28 wizard 05:49:36 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:49:44 adding dmsl might be a bit much anyway, its somewhat hard already 05:53:03 @??angel 05:53:03 @??angel ench:berserk 05:53:03 angel (16A) | Speed: 15 | HD: 12 | Health: 84-119 | AC/EV: 10/20 | Damage: 25, 10 | Flags: 08holy, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(128), 10elec++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 08holy | XP: 2087 | Sp: minor healing. 05:53:04 angel (16A) | Speed: 22-23 | HD: 12 | Health: 126-183 | AC/EV: 10/20 | Damage: 25, 10 | Flags: 08holy, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(128), 10elec++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 08holy | XP: 2086 | Sp: minor healing. 05:53:46 speed and HP change is shown, but not damage. 05:54:19 also: less exp :) 05:55:28 @??worm ench:flight 05:55:28 unknown ench: "flight" 05:55:33 @??worm ench:fly 05:55:33 unknown ench: "fly" 05:55:43 gretell has likely not been updated 06:00:36 it wouldn't allow the ench: syntax 06:00:49 alefury: there is no such enchantment 06:01:34 it would be nice to make things fly on demand 06:02:07 there is levitation, though 06:02:41 I wouldn't abuse it unless there's a good way to tell players the monster in question flies 06:03:53 yeah, thats what im saying too 06:04:16 there is no display, so I'd keep it to monsters which are always flying or have an obvious reason to fly -- currently AFAIK only tornado 06:04:37 they can always be placed on water or lava 06:05:07 and in tiles they can have wings :) 06:05:10 but i agree in principle 06:08:08 03kilobyte * r0025242b3910 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-restr.cc: Alas, poor MuTm and GhTm, we knew you well. 06:08:09 03kilobyte * r52350051e731 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Fix twister tornado expiring. Should last until it's gone. 06:08:19 03kilobyte * r4eb8e2b5715c 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Evict a doubled description to the database. 06:11:36 ! 06:11:39 what's the new tm spell do 06:11:56 confuse people, making them think about boobies 06:11:59 mmm boobies... 06:12:21 i'll be sad if it's the same thing as sharkpunch but not named sharkpunch :P 06:12:26 gives you a temporary aux mutation: horns, tentacles or talons 06:12:39 .??sharkpunch 06:12:46 in an uncovered slot 06:13:11 kilobyte: 1 MP L1 spell, gives you a single punch which turns your hand into a shark's mouth for the duration of it, heavily boosting damage 06:14:31 reaching attacks don't extend rage like normal attacks do (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4631) by ortoslon 06:14:43 so did tm lose evap? 06:15:39 yeah, fulsome too 06:15:50 cool, we should go ahead and do alchemists then ;) 06:16:12 they only need ~2 new spells to work 06:16:17 id love a caster background that starts with sublimation 06:17:03 making sublimation nec/alch was one possibility, but i didn't think it would feel very correct as a starting book thing 06:17:19 its a use for corpses 06:17:36 i was thinking more of a blasty necromancer though, not really an alchemist 06:17:43 ??book of necromancy 06:17:44 book of necromancy[1/1]: Spells: pain, lethal infusion, animate skeleton, vampiric draining, regeneration, dispel undead, animate dead. 06:18:02 alchemists are basically explosionmancers 06:18:35 something blasty with lots of uses for corpses might be fun 06:19:07 but there was a lot of talk of removing fulsome, so basing a background suggestion on it would be pretty wobbly 06:19:22 (also fulsome needs to go imo) 06:20:02 alefury: they're designed around using evap + ignite, so fulsome could become a bunch weaker in terms of the potions it gives 06:20:18 if fulsome was given to an alchemist background, it'd get quickly superceded by meph/poison cloud 06:20:46 that too 06:21:17 ??sublimation 06:21:17 sublimation of blood[1/1]: Converts HP, wielded chunks, or wielded potions of blood into MP. Each chunk or potion of blood is worth 6+1d7 MP. When used with HP, it restores pow/6 mean (exp. distributed) MP, each MP point costing up to 4 (avg. 1 + 18/pow) HP. Never directly fatal. 06:21:18 and maybe alchemist could have a higher-level spell that does something more interesting with pots? 06:21:27 its tmut/necro, right? 06:21:40 homunculus, but its not finished 06:23:08 also it uses good pots 06:23:21 also: fulsome and evap should in separate books (except for the Alchemist starting book, which shouldn't spawn randomly) 06:23:32 that way, it's harder for other backgrounds to ever find the combo 06:23:34 sigh homunculus 06:24:14 fulsome should be in as few books as possible because it sucks 06:24:23 preferrably 0 imo 06:25:42 ghallberg: no new food patch :( 06:25:43 personally, i find fulsome and evap a fun combo, but only played rarely 06:25:43 dpeg: TOo bad :( 06:25:43 mumra: a pumped up version of evap could be fun 06:25:43 it could make a new temporary type of potions i guess, bottle of noxious gas or something, that could then be simply fired from the quiver 06:25:44 EVAP WENT TO THE GYM. and got pumped. 06:25:52 with potion type independent of corpse type 06:25:57 make them explode into shrapnel 06:26:31 oh, or a spell to turn potions into geysers of ACID 06:26:37 cone acid spray attack 06:29:42 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 06:30:14 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 06:31:28 alefury: yes, permabuffs are planned for 0.10 06:31:28 which means I plan to code it 06:31:28 and have put so in the planning with a link to the latest design 06:31:48 proposal for fulsome/evap: remove evap. fulsome to level 2. fulsome creates bottles of noxious gas from any corpse. these quickly decay, and can be fired from the quiver to create a very short lasting mephcloud. 06:31:52 of course, if someone's in a hurry (or just want to help), I'll be happy to delegate :P 06:31:56 We should take bets on which planned items make it into 0.10 :) 06:32:26 i plan to start coding for crawl at some point, but im currently too busy 06:32:43 and permabuffs are a bit too complex for me to code as a first project anyway 06:32:51 s/busy/lazy/ for my situation for the last three years 06:32:55 regarding food reform, there's probably not much to code, and already some code submitted to start with 06:33:55 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:34:24 i could work on that i guess, but only in a few weeks, so dont hold your breath. i certainly want the food reform to be in 0.10. 06:35:03 Hive removal plus food reform, it will be legendary: "Crawl 0.10, draught, famine, starvation" 06:35:20 thats not alliterative though :( 06:35:51 crawl 0.10: Malnourished Mountain Dwarf? 06:36:01 that would be nice if MD are removed :D 06:36:10 that's what i was thinking :) 06:37:14 or, could just go with Hungry Harpy 06:38:00 alefury: well, that would be great. A few weeks is fine, we have 3 months left. 06:38:07 If someone comes up with a decent aptitude table for Mi and HO (and perhaps DD), we can dismiss MD right away. 06:38:38 im not that confident in my coding abilities, wrote maybe 300 lines of C++ total in my life. some more C, but im no expert. but i can certainly try 06:38:42 dpeg: regarding food reform, I almost started coding it myself at some point, but there was something that I didn't understand in the design. Maybe there's a mistake. 06:38:49 herbivore: nutrition is multiplied by [content]/4+1/2 (so halved for chunks and 150% for fruits) 06:38:58 content varies between -2 and 2 06:39:05 doesn't compute for me 06:39:21 let me check 06:39:41 maybe it's meant to be 4+/-2 / 4 ? 06:40:03 content/4 + 1 would fit with the text 06:40:50 alefury: right, that must be it 06:41:17 make that content/4 + 1 06:41:29 ah, alefury was faster in solving the linear equation :) 06:41:41 but then, what does the nutrition column means in the chunks and permafood tables? 06:43:09 galehar: these are the factors coming from hunger and food type. 06:43:09 and the (content/4 + 1) formula doesn't account for mutation level 06:43:09 The content is independent (multiplicative). 06:43:09 Yes, there are three factors. 06:43:46 so you need to apply both modifiers then. 06:44:06 a couple of examples would help understanding the whole thing 06:44:52 yeah, i had some trouble with it too. im pretty sure i understand the gist of it though, and it seems like a good way to handle food. 06:46:12 mutation level/3 * content/2 + 1 would probably work, 06:46:50 so double/no nutrition at maxed levels of herbi- and carnivore, no effect without mutations 06:47:25 just the formulas sometimes dont really fit the text 06:47:39 but that can be solved fairly easily 06:48:54 Everyone is free to improve it! 06:48:54 alefury: but this skips the whole preference table (the one which returns an integer depending on food type and mutation level) 06:49:08 oh right. it has been a while since i looked at the proposal 06:50:42 dpeg: of course, but you and Vintermann already spent a lot of time thinking this through. Before tweaking it, I'd like to be sure I understand it fully. Do you think you could add a few examples? (with mut X and food Y, you can eat it at foo hunger level for bar nutrition) 06:51:46 galehar: yes, will do. 06:51:54 thanks 06:58:52 can we have the alchemist background without the alchemy school? (so we can replace St with a reasonable amount of changes) 06:59:19 galehar: you could just keep the school name as 'poison' and make the other changes, but alchemy is way more flavorful a name :P 07:00:43 galehar: yes, would work 07:01:05 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 07:01:10 how would alchemy be distinct from tmut? 07:01:13 goodmorning 07:01:38 same as charm/hex: self/other? 07:01:58 alefury: alchemy = acid, poison, exothermic reactions, etc.; more 'irreversible' changes 07:02:00 if you read up on what alchemy really is, you'll see that it's not really fit for a magic school. 07:02:21 transmutation = shifting from one thing to another, currently all reversible changes 07:02:37 (except for the spells that i'm proposing be moved into alchemy) 07:02:58 which is just evap and ignite, which never felt tmut-y anyways 07:03:33 galehar: it's just a name + flavor - has nothing to do with the original idea (like how our evocation, conjuration, etc. is nothing like the origin of the word) 07:03:40 Eronarn: don't forget endothermic reactions. They'll suck the heat right out of you! 07:03:49 imagine it's called Chemistry if you prefer :) 07:04:11 Eronarn: it's worse. chemistry is a science. 07:04:21 right, which is why i didn 07:04:24 galehar: And it can't turn lead into gold without physics. 07:04:26 t actualy use that :P 07:04:30 Ain't no Alchemy until Reverse Alchemy spell is in =) 07:04:40 Eronarn: Why don't we rename "Fighting" to "Physics" 07:04:57 basing alchemist on tmut sounds perfectly fine to me. I don't see the point of adding a magical school with dubious theme (to my taste at least) 07:05:04 dpeg: that could be a good thing to have instead of the slime wall thing i'd proposed actually 07:05:28 dpeg: reverse alchemy? Eronarn: slime wall? 07:05:32 i'd like to have a slime wall spell but alchemists are already earth/fire so reverse alchemy would fit well (i also gave them high starting gold) 07:05:39 bmh: an old spell idea of mine. Turns gold and magic into energy (damage). 07:05:44 ha. 07:05:59 bmh: a spell that turns walls into slime walls (would require fixes to AI to make it work, and for the spell to not hit on the other side of walls) 07:06:12 basically something you can use alongside cloud spells that isn't more clouds 07:06:16 dpeg: Do Vampires pick up gold? 07:06:25 Back when I was looking for gold uses. Bazaars and Ziggurats made it in, the Mercenary card and Reverse Alchemy spell are still begging :) 07:06:52 reverse alchemy would actually be a good DOT spell 07:06:56 bmh: I am not familiar with Vp lore. Why not? 07:07:00 because it's too expensive to use it to kite kill everything 07:07:23 dpeg: I mean the monsters in DCSS. If they find gold, will they take it? 07:07:48 bmh: all humanoid monsters will, I thought. But not when you're around. You can see this in Orc. 07:07:57 If a vampire sees a pile of objects, they're obliged to count them. Hence the character The Count on Sesame Street 07:08:22 * dpeg slaps bmh with an uncountable cardinal trout. 07:10:14 i wonder if we could reuse some of the blood coagulation code for alchemists 07:11:20 Eronarn: what for? 07:11:31 galehar: for having potions that you can extract, but can't stockpile 07:11:44 this would also help with the extract-ID thing 07:12:01 dpeg proposed that earlier, kilobyte said it would lead to tedious inventory management. 07:12:15 not if they autorotted the way coagulated blood eventually does 07:13:24 yes that's true. But we need to make sure you don't have too many different types. 07:13:24 i think it would work if fulsome would always make the same potion type 07:13:26 like i said earlier 07:13:32 something like a bottle of noxious gas 07:13:53 The interface trouble can be mitigated, we have to consider in advance whether it is worth it. (jpeg and I faced exactly the same problems with Vp and !blood. Some said we should dispense with bottling blood completely.) 07:13:58 is the wiki still working? 07:14:10 Napkin: I've edited today. 07:14:16 galehar: i think of Alchemy as magically-induced molecular transformations; i.e. things that wouldn't be possible by normal chemistry, but with a little bit of magic in the mix you can achieve the impossible! 07:14:20 hehe, good, dpeg :) 07:14:28 i think multiple uses for corpses to compete with getting piety are good 07:14:33 and most interesting in the early game 07:14:37 galehar: i think 2-3 types would be sufficient. and have them show up under ammo (or even a new category, 'Grenades') 07:14:42 dpeg: I did make those evil abyssy vaults you asked for. Want more? :D 07:15:07 bmh: always! If you make vaults, I'll review them. Might take a week or two (sometimes more), but will come. 07:15:32 dpeg: Do you think silence + 5 hellephants is... cruel? 07:15:34 'vial of hissing acid', 'vial of noxious gas', 'vial of lurid poison' 07:15:35 dpeg : https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4626 07:15:45 i think its only 4 hellephants actually 07:15:54 would mean 3 possible effects of evap... seems reasonable to me 07:15:55 Eronarn: yes, cutting down the different types down to 2 or 3 would help a lot 07:16:06 but still, hellephants are really powerful 07:16:21 acid = low damage but hurts almost anything (but could corrode their gear), gas = meph, poison = poison 07:16:24 -!- ortoslon has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:16:24 -!- ortoslon1 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:16:25 -!- ortoslon1 is now known as ortoslon 07:16:56 also, wrt to fulsome/evap... 07:17:15 We should have a wizmode command to kit out a character of a particular XL with "reasonable" gear 07:17:21 what about having evap memorized give you an 'a' menu ability to extract potions? 07:17:36 or even an option when dissecting 07:17:40 rather than needing a spell to do it 07:18:23 galehar: assigned to me 07:20:43 Eronarn: how is that any better or worse than casting a spell? it's still two keypresses 07:22:06 03kilobyte * r4d9c7942241f 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-restr.cc: Simplify weapon restrictions for draconians -- no need to care about non-base. 07:22:14 03kilobyte * raead39c1e802 10/crawl-ref/source/evoke.cc: Consider reaching attacks to be not calm for berserk purposes. 07:22:14 03kilobyte * r902296b857ca 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Split away enchantment code from monster.cc 07:22:15 03kilobyte * rea119eb2ebe6 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Make nagas "slither" rather than "crawl" in some places. 07:22:48 kilobyte: The game ain't called "crawl" for nothing! tsk tsk. 07:22:55 did anyone fix the wield thing for beastly appendage? 07:23:02 someone on the forum said they cant butcher 07:23:03 bmh: another popular idea is that you can import a character into wizmode. 07:23:11 alefury: kilobyte did 07:23:21 mumra: doesn't have to take up another spellslot, another slot in the book, require using a necro spell, etc. 07:23:36 dpeg: That would be nice. Anything to speed up testing 07:23:38 wait, weapon restrictions for draconians? 07:23:58 Eronarn: btw, i had an idea how to easily fix the acid wall problems. just have an "acidic ooze" feature/trap type which gets generated next to walls and is always avoided by monsters. the spell will generate them but only next to walls (with flavour "acid oozes out of the walls"). so it solves both ai problems and which tiles to apply damage on. 07:24:00 bmh: the idea is old, though, and nothing ever happened :) 07:24:29 mumra: hm, that is a reasonable idea, yes 07:24:35 it would match how the floor already looks in slime 07:24:56 though i'm not too keen on having it work differently from slime, mechanically... 07:25:01 well exactly, console users have a different colour adjacent to slime walls, but tiles players have nothing 07:25:08 mumra: can you submit a small patch that improves the fire/cold traps? 07:25:15 with this, you could have visible acid all over the floor 07:25:34 dpeg: I suppose we could 1. Adjust the XL, 2. Assign skills, 3. Identify a number of item types based on XL, 4. Cast acquirement repeatedly 07:26:28 bmh: something like that, yes. Could ideally call a lua script. 07:27:45 mumra: could also make a slime that trails acid, i guess :) 07:28:11 or a jiyva mut to do that 07:28:41 dpeg: i can quickly change the trap type to "flame", and reduce the power and size a bit. anything beyond that would need source changes (e.g. making the damage work differently to normal clouds, fixing exclusions, etc.) 07:29:08 Eronarn: I was also thinking that (and being able to apply the same code for snail trails...) 07:33:07 Eronarn: we could make generic the fire elemental cloud code to be some monster property to "drop something out the back" 07:33:27 Speaking of which, I don't think anyone would appreciate an Orc/Goblin/Troll unique with bad gas. 07:35:22 bmh: you know what speaking such things here can bring 07:35:47 kilobyte: A farting troll who leaves dark miasma in his wake? 07:36:29 Eronarn: your servitor rotted me! 07:36:36 Eronarn: what's the point in _that_? 07:38:49 kilobyte: Are you endorsing the idea or poo-pooing it? ;) 07:39:48 bmh: not endorsing, just warning you that people here are crazy enough to do that 07:40:37 "warning" -- I've managed to hold back on the urge to add the cast of Scooby-Doo. Three neutral humans, a confused human and a dog. 07:41:56 what would be the reward for killing Scrappy? Beyond moral feelings. 07:42:30 kilobyte: 100k XP and it would mollify any angry gods. 07:56:33 bmh: training skills when using &^L is easy (at least when going up in XL). But it's not very useful until you can fine tune the training percentages in wizmode. 07:58:06 03kilobyte * r121c0cc836b8 10/crawl-ref/source/cloud.cc: Halve the effect of XL against catlobe breath, keeping even chances at XL 14. 08:01:33 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-976-g121c0cc (32) 08:01:50 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 08:06:06 03kilobyte * rcc2ed790632e 10/crawl-ref/source/transform.cc: Increase the duration of Appendage. 08:09:07 kilobyte: rotted? i don't see how it managed that 08:09:13 unless vampiric monsters still cause rot 08:09:16 which would be Really Stupid 08:09:28 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:11:24 that's the reason people dislike vampire mosquitoes 08:11:25 Gray draconians should be immune to wandering mushrooms' spore attack (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4634) by ion_frigate 08:11:26 Octopodes shouldn't be able to memorize Beastly Appendage. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4633) by ebarrett 08:11:26 Beastly Appendage prevents wielding items, regardless of slot transformed. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4632) by ebarrett 08:14:55 btw any ideas what to do with octopode tmut forms and (potential) ringslot melding? 08:29:04 I'd say merge rings 3 to 8 08:30:06 for which forms? 08:30:15 merging rings in ice/dragon makes sense 08:30:18 it doesn't in spider/statue 08:30:20 or lich 08:30:30 well, spiders can only use 2 rings for other species 08:30:36 right, but eight legs :P 08:30:52 also, mechanically, spider, ice and dragon merge body armor, which the rings are the "replacement" for 08:30:57 it's a tiny flavorful bonus that isn't super powerful, and people will be annoyed if it's removed 08:31:12 whereas it won't make optm way weaker because when they're using spider they don't have 8 rings anyways 08:31:17 galehar: Can a player easily put a ring in slot 1 instead of slot 6? 08:31:29 spider = best form for a long time imo 08:31:35 bmh: it requires some swapping around; it might be better to have a prompt when you cast 08:31:36 i usually prefer it to ice 08:31:40 'Which two rings do you want to meld?' 08:31:43 er, not meld 08:31:46 anyweays, class 08:31:51 mm, that sounds really annoying 08:31:59 MarvinPA: my thoughts exactly. 08:32:44 statue form is also a little iffy balance wise 08:32:48 massive ac AND 8 rings 08:33:00 even though merging them makes no sense at all 08:34:28 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 08:34:34 no prompt 08:34:40 players can adjust rings with = 08:35:17 I am also not sure about the use of the message "You put on ring foo (on tentacle)." 08:37:42 dpeg: What should we cut out of crawl today? :) 08:38:15 dpeg: = changes inventory letter, not ring position 08:38:49 galehar: ah, good point 08:38:56 Oc could have a special menu = (r)ing 08:39:07 even better, == 08:39:22 bmh: we're in good shape for 0.10: Hive, some spells. And MD on the block. 08:39:40 dpeg: Hive is going because it's a big boring food quest? 08:39:52 but swapping rings 1 and 4 is just a matter of removing both and putting 4 first 08:39:58 I mut say though, it'll take a lot of fun out of Ignite Poison 08:40:01 bmh: yes, nobody enjoys it. It's just seen as a tedious source of food, piety, items. 08:40:21 bmh: There'll be a hive portal vault at some point, I hope. :) 08:40:37 dpeg: I was just going to say... should I get cracking on a hive portal/mini vault? 08:40:38 bmh: there's still swamp, snake and soon spider to enjoy ignite poison 08:40:57 galehar: and evaporate! 08:41:05 bmh: GreatZebu (our OS X master) announced looking into Hive portal vaulting. 08:41:15 There are a billion of other interesting Implementables though =) 08:41:25 dpeg: Thank god he's doing the mac builds. My mac is still in for repairs 08:41:36 bmh: not exactly a "mini" vault but: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4454 08:41:37 Why thank god if you can thank GreatZebu? 08:42:25 galehar: That is a macrovault. 08:43:30 I'm not sure I really see that much attraction to a hive portal vault when we already have bee rooms, really 08:43:39 race ideas would be better used in something new IMO 08:43:41 elliptic: unique playing style 08:43:45 elliptic: tell us! 08:44:50 I thought about, but it is not so easy to come up with something that is better than "if you miss it in time, there is no loot". The enemies actually eating the loot is cool, imo. 08:44:55 dpeg: https://gist.github.com/1247965 <-- I suspect that I may be alone in the degree to which this amuses me 08:45:05 maybe remove bee rooms and add a hive portal vault instead? 08:45:38 alefury: surely an option, but I like bee rooms because of the threat. So I would keep them, reduce their food content and then add the Hive. 08:45:47 I'd prefer to see more bee rooms than a hive portal. 08:46:30 bee rooms have all the same problems as hive: trivial with rP and some AC, deadly without 08:46:37 Cloud trap tweaks (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4635) by mumra 08:46:39 bee rooms get old (the first one is generally interesting)... the portal would ask for more than slowly luring bees and killing them 08:46:42 the portal vault would of course suffer from the same problem 08:46:44 mumra: thanks! 08:46:53 alefury: no 08:46:55 dpeg: I'm vaguely wondering about some sort of minizig idea where you get more loot/have to fight fewe monsters if you are faster in navigating it 08:47:17 elliptic: if you can flesh it out, I am all ears. 08:47:18 by minizig I just mean that it would have different monster sets, not multi-level or open or whatever 08:47:36 no flesh yet, just faith that bees are not the only idea :) 08:48:02 alefury: bee rooms are one of the more interesting things from a tactical perspective in early game 08:48:07 elliptic: sounds cool. why not multi-level? might be easier to make it time-based that way 08:48:20 i agree, but only if they are not trivial 08:48:23 well, I should have said not necessarily multilevel 08:48:24 which is mostly luck-based 08:49:01 bee rooms aren't trivial if you get them before lair or in early lair 08:49:22 rP + AC = trivial, lacking either makes them very dangerous 08:49:40 doesnt matter if its before or after lair, this stays the same 08:49:41 I don't think it is as simple as that 08:49:44 no 08:49:48 I disagree :) 08:50:19 aoe spells work too of course, and youre much more likely to have those after lair 08:50:39 rP and AC certainly help but bee rooms will still generally consume resources even with them 08:50:40 as do HP, SH, EV, and being able to kill them faster 08:50:53 but rP and AC alone affect their deadliness very very strongly 08:51:55 it isn't as simple as "have rPois and AC" or "don't have rPois and AC", though 08:53:00 of course, not quite as simple. But having rPois probably helps as much as at least 3 XL and corresponding other loot 08:53:19 I don't really see this as a problem 08:53:33 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:53:41 having rC helps your chances of being able to do an ice cave rather a lot, etc 08:53:43 i think it is a problem if bee rooms are made more common 08:53:51 well I wouldn't do that 08:53:56 early rP is already too important 08:53:59 no it isn't 08:54:04 early rPois is way overrated 08:54:17 that too, but imo too important regardless 08:54:18 bee rooms is one of the only things it *is* good for :P 08:54:25 slouch trivializes them if you remembered to victory dance Invo :p If not: < Gretell> KiloByte the Transmogrifier (L10 DrTm), worshipper of Cheibriados, slain by a killer bee on D:10 08:54:29 after avoiding snake deaths on d:2 08:54:42 elliptic: more bee rooms! We could replace zot:5 with a bee room 08:54:44 it helps a lot with lair 08:54:51 not really 08:54:51 some food but yeah 08:55:16 well, i yield to your expertise 08:56:07 being able to cast meph and poison cloud on yourself without harm is extremely useful early-mid game 08:56:49 whats the status of making rP not 100%? 08:56:55 that's quite rarely a problem 08:57:19 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:58:42 is there a concrete plan to do that or is it on the planning page just for kicks? 09:01:11 only for kicks 09:02:39 i think it is a good idea 09:04:10 Probably, yes. But not urgent, in my opinion. 09:04:44 would be nice to have in the same version update as spider imo 09:06:10 I'd rather see rP eggs in Spider. 09:06:34 rP eggs? 09:07:19 Yes. galehar insists that every new version has to contain more eggs. 09:08:41 Å“uf pour Å“uf, dent pour dent 09:08:54 kilobyte: something iffy in 9480d00d. ng-setup.cc:586, how the armour skill could not be useless if you can't wear body armour? 09:09:06 are there currently any eggs in crawl? 09:09:30 dpeg: wow. French play on words! 09:09:41 :) 09:10:07 I like your funny letters, as much as my ß 09:10:30 most french people don't bother using them and just write oeuf 09:10:35 boo 09:10:42 yeah, it's a shame 09:10:45 Decline of civilisation etc. 09:11:01 Like the Swiss who do s/ß/ss/ 09:11:09 good that word processors change them automatically ;) 09:11:43 civilisation is declining into ascii. unicode is obsolete. 09:11:56 isn't ß more like sz than ss, anyway? 09:12:25 Zaba: tell that to the Swiss. They're cognitively challenged with äöü already. 09:12:46 wonder what'd they say about Ñ‘ 09:13:05 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:13:51 galehar: can't wear platemail, can GDA 09:14:27 galehar: There were German culture ministers seriously proposing abolishment of äöüß because "many computer programs don't support those". I am sure such madness would not have been uttered in France. Those soulless stupid bureocrats. 09:14:31 * dpeg would die for the ß. 09:15:30 dpeg: I know folks who jettisoned the umlauts from their names :( 09:16:02 dpeg: i had an idea for a god of seasons that gives you four thematic presents a year, so easter eggs for summer :) 09:16:10 mumra: :) 09:16:31 RL year like in Nethack? 09:16:34 mumra: Easter is in the Spring. 09:16:48 d'oh 09:16:52 Orthodox Easter! 09:16:56 (no idea when that is) 09:16:57 kilobyte: not sure this is what galehar was talking about, but currently DrBe starts with 0.5 armour skill despite never getting body armour 09:17:05 dpeg: What does that give you? An onion? 09:17:16 kilobyte: you_can_wear is called without special_armour argument. Here, it return false only for species who can't wear any armour (Fe, Oc and Dr) 09:17:18 it isn't totally useless (helps AC from other armour parts) but isn't good either 09:17:24 i was thinking a "year" would be the time from one XL to the next 09:17:45 galehar: Dr? 09:17:45 mumra: tbh, the door god has more appeal :) 09:17:51 ??dr 09:17:52 draconian[1/4]: As a player draconian, you are given a random colour you didn't want upon reaching level 7, usually granting a breath attack and a resistance (sometimes later), and revealing your aptitudes. See "?? draconian" for details -- red, white, green, yellow, grey, black, purple, mottled, pale. Enemy draconians are bad news and found mostly in Zot. 09:18:01 Draconians can't wear armour? 09:18:29 elliptic: oh, I didn't know the armour skill help ac from other slots. I thought it was only body armour 09:19:12 the multiplier to AC helps base AC from any slot equally... but there won't be much of that (4 max for Dr, for instance) 09:19:21 dpeg: i know, that's why i didn't bother writing anything up (although there could be some interesting factors with different conducts for different seasons) 09:19:44 !seen Wensley 09:19:45 I last saw Wensley at Wed Sep 28 03:36:47 2011 UTC (10h 42m 57s ago) quitting with message Ping timeout: 248 seconds. 09:19:53 He failed to deliver on the Sif page, btw. 09:20:38 at least FeBe and OpBe don't start with any armour skill, probably because the skill is actually totally useless for them 09:20:51 i know... the main reason i wrote my proposal was to encourage him to hurry up! 09:21:09 elliptic: CIA is asleep, the skill was not marked as useless 09:21:12 mumra: didn't work 09:21:20 Dr really shouldn't either given that they have no way of exercising it, though 09:21:40 kilobyte: for Fe/Op? then why don't they get any armour skill? 09:22:03 elliptic: for Dr 09:22:07 03kilobyte * ra0867245b60f 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Mark the Armour skill as useless for Draconians. 09:22:11 yeah 09:22:35 it isn't technically completely useless as I said, but nearly so and it can't be exercised 09:22:37 is_useless_skill(SK_ARMOUR) failed to return true 09:24:36 you can get +4 AC with 27 skill. Even 4.9 if you have something else that could grant a partial point :p 09:25:34 sorry, +3 / 3.6, my bad 09:26:51 * bhaak doesn't kick dpeg for his Swiss bashing, otherwise jokes about being slow would proliferate 09:26:56 maybe I shouldn't displayed level and apt for useless skills. Just the name (and only when you show all of course) 09:27:23 hiding the meaningless apt would make sense, yes 09:27:26 yes 09:27:53 or could write '-' instead of a number 09:29:05 galehar: let's hide them completely on m* 09:29:24 and - or N/A on the aptitude list 09:29:45 kilobyte: you mean don't display the skill at all? 09:30:38 yeah, would be simplest I think 09:30:59 (this assumes you can't target them with Ash or read manuals) 09:33:43 this is already the case 09:37:05 showing - in aptitudes.txt would require duplicating the logic while building Crawl 09:37:22 I wonder, perhaps we could mark useless skills with a token aptitude, like -99? 09:38:43 oh, so this isn't possible now? 09:38:48 !lg * title=markscat 09:38:52 1. hyperbolic the Markscat (L21 FeVM), worshipper of Ashenzari, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-12-09, with 1252024 points after 89667 turns and 6:41:21. 09:38:53 kilobyte: good idea 09:39:48 elliptic: bcc6db97b1 09:40:40 ding, vault! https://gist.github.com/1248102 09:42:04 elliptic: <3 09:43:42 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 09:44:54 with the change to banishment, kittens can drop their stuff when they die now, can't they? 09:46:36 could need an item of levitation or teleportation, but mostly yeah 09:46:42 hmm no... Abyss 09:49:49 would it be simpler for armour skill to just not help with non-body armour AC at all? 09:50:24 seems like a pretty minor/hidden effect anyway 09:50:30 abyss is difficult enough for a low level character without a bunch of exit vaults that all feature ultra high level enemies tbh 09:51:03 marvinpa: I don't see any problems with it helping really 09:51:15 hmm 09:51:41 and it isn't that minor on races with bardings 09:51:42 i guess not, other than it being useful for draconians in theory 09:51:59 ah yeah 09:52:34 nagas and centaurs get 7 non-body AC (and their body AC is halved) 09:53:58 Mu_: yeah... 09:55:37 should probably do an if you.level < X thing or whatever and use a selection of enemies 09:56:03 executioners are the most dangerous monster in abyss, yeah, don't need exits guarded by them 09:58:06 03MarvinPA * re224009a54fb 10/crawl-ref/source/ (beam.cc fight.cc): Don't let spores affect unbreathing monsters or players 09:58:48 I'm not convinced we need that exit vault at all 09:59:56 kills not spoiled players dead, spoiled ones will go around it in a large arc, and spoiled but cocky ones can already go die in Ziggurats 10:01:40 the idea was to provide easier (to find) exits to powerful character. To cute down on the tedium. I have no idea about the appropriate threat level of those exits, bmh might have gone overboard. 10:02:15 galehar: You mean there's something cruel with mixing Executioners and Unseen Horrors? 10:03:20 going around to lure the monster away and run for the exit is a valid strategy. It's far from guaranteed with morphing and shifting. And monsters can have the patrolling flag. 10:04:36 bmh: you mean, 16 monsters, avg. 4 hellephants, 12 wimpier but not that wimpy ones is not cruel? 10:05:03 kilobyte: what do you mean 16 monsters? 10:05:16 the silenced vault 10:05:35 oh, and you can't use magic, scrolls or invocations and they all ignore it 10:06:06 kilobyte: You're misreading the vault. It only dumps 4-6 monsters. 10:06:18 galehar: no need to cut down on tedium of finding exits for powerful characters now that hell effects don't abyss people 10:06:42 and now that you don't have to go through there to exit pan 10:06:43 fine 10:06:45 well it's still pretty tedious when you have to go and fetch the rune 10:06:57 removing the abyssal rune would fix that though! 10:06:58 fortunately nothing in the game forces you to go and get the rune! 10:07:02 haha 10:07:04 yes it does :( 10:07:07 pride! 10:07:13 MarvinPA: Pride lives in you, not in the game. 10:07:23 so, let's make it less tedious: increase difficulty with time 10:07:33 indeed 10:07:36 dlk had this hilarious death in Zig when he was farming it looking for cMut as part of an all rune. 10:07:41 Pride is a lifekiller. 10:08:10 bmh: is there any other type of killer? 10:08:29 galehar: you don't choose how many times you'll get abyssed or how long you'll sit there before being able to escape 10:08:33 galehar: mind-killer? 10:08:53 although i think i did just do 14 runes on one of my recent games 10:09:21 since i never got banished and found a regular pan exit, and couldn't be bothered to enter the abyss of my own free will :P 10:09:22 kilobyte: What about recreating exit vaults that you've used? So if you fight your way out, you have a chance of finding the same vault (albeit empty) on your next dive? 10:09:39 kilobyte: it's just a matter of tuning the speed increase so that it gets really difficult only if you voluntarily stay there or if you're incredibly unlucky. 10:10:08 03kilobyte * r44ada53d972a 10/crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc: Mark manuals of useless skills as useless. 10:10:08 03kilobyte * rd09b59c61862 10/crawl-ref/source/ (aptitudes.h itemname.cc skills2.cc skills2.h util/gen-apt.pl): Show useless skills as N/A. 10:10:13 03kilobyte * rd18f556b1178 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Fix a crash on wizmode &^R and on old saves with useless skills. 10:10:13 03kilobyte * r0eb8d67d21da 10/crawl-ref/source/skill_menu.cc: Don't show useless skills at all in the menu. 10:10:40 N/A looks a bit overlong, not sure if - would be better 10:10:55 mingles between negative numbers, though 10:12:30 kilobyte: drop the /? 10:13:39 just looked at empty spaces, look interesting 10:14:07 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 10:16:07 03kilobyte * r54ef91c99c83 10/crawl-ref/source/util/gen-apt.pl: s|/|| in "N/A". 10:16:45 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110701115916]] 10:17:07 Tartarus ending (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4636) by minmay 10:27:26 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 10:32:35 -!- bhaak is now known as ais523 10:32:48 -!- ais523 is now known as bhaak 10:36:44 -!- bmh has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:44:22 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:58:44 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:02:29 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:03:41 -!- galehar has quit [] 11:05:26 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:06:10 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 11:11:00 -!- mumra has quit [Quit: offski] 11:16:21 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:26:23 ??static discharge 11:26:23 static discharge[1/3]: Hits between 1 and 8 adjacent enemies, based on power; if an enemy is rElec or flying, skip them. For each target hit, if power remains, recursively arc out to another adjacent target (includes you!), reducing power to 1/2 or 1/3. 3 + d(5+pow/10) elec damage, halved damage to you if flying, and checks rElec. 11:28:16 !learn edit static_discharge[1] s|3 + d(5+pow/10) elec damage, h|H| 11:28:16 No change because the regex failed to match. 11:28:21 mm 11:28:40 well those numbers are wrong, anyway 11:28:50 \( probably 11:28:58 !learn edit static_discharge[1] s|3 + d\(5+pow/10) elec damage, h|H| 11:28:59 Unmatched ) in regex; marked by <-- HERE in m/3 + d\(5+pow/10) <-- HERE elec damage, h/ at commands/learn/edit.pl line 63, <> line 1. 11:29:02 haha 11:29:08 i will never understand how this works 11:29:11 !learn edit static_discharge[1] s|3 + d\(5+pow/10\) elec damage, h|H| 11:29:12 No change because the regex failed to match. 11:29:13 \( and \) 11:29:23 oh, ahahaha 11:29:28 \+ too 11:29:29 !learn edit static_discharge[1] s|3 \+ d\(5+pow/10) elec damage, h|H| 11:29:29 Unmatched ) in regex; marked by <-- HERE in m/3 \+ d\(5+pow/10) <-- HERE elec damage, h/ at commands/learn/edit.pl line 63, <> line 1. 11:29:35 !learn edit static_discharge[1] s|3 \+ d\(5+pow/10\) elec damage, h|H| 11:29:36 No change because the regex failed to match. 11:29:42 aaah 11:29:49 !learn edit static_discharge[1] s|3 \+ d\(5\+pow/10\) elec damage, h|H| 11:29:50 static discharge[1/3]: Hits between 1 and 8 adjacent enemies, based on power; if an enemy is rElec or flying, skip them. For each target hit, if power remains, recursively arc out to another adjacent target (includes you!), reducing power to 1/2 or 1/3. Halved damage to you if flying, and checks rElec. 11:30:09 victory 11:30:31 also, could have done something like s/3 .*elec damage, h/H/ 11:30:32 >.> 11:30:47 Is static discharge worthless? 11:30:53 nope, it's good 11:31:02 it's been good for like three versions :P 11:33:00 it was only reduced to L3 in 0.9, right? 11:33:16 I think it was sort of bad still in 0.8 11:33:24 possibly 11:33:36 could've been 0.7 i improved it and 0.8 the level was reduced 11:43:38 I think the description of Beastly Appendage is misleading 11:43:53 Seems to imply you get full-strength attacks from your appendage 11:49:23 "full-strength"? 11:51:32 Well, regular attacks, I mean, as opposed to auxiliary attacks. 11:52:42 I don't really see how you are getting that from the description 11:53:40 "giving you an extra attack" 11:53:50 it gives you an extra attack 11:54:14 I guarantee you that any beginner who reads that description is going to thing it means to normal attacks per turn. 11:54:19 do you have a suggestion for improvement? 11:55:08 extra auxiliary attack? 11:55:18 Replace "giving you an extra attack" with "augmenting your attack power", or something 11:55:36 "extra auxiliary attack" would do, I'd think, yeah 11:55:53 are beginners going to have any idea what that means 11:55:55 auxiliary attack would just be confusing to new players, surely 11:56:12 also it's quite clear what it does from actually using it, surely? 11:56:29 better to make it confusing than misleading, imo 11:56:57 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:57:30 Xiberia: no way! 11:57:58 hmm, are all of the training requirements going to make it hard to train, say, both your melee and ranged weapons in killing a single monster? 11:58:00 i don't think it's misleading really, it says it gives you an extra attack and it does 11:58:11 Technically, the description is correct, everyone can see in the game what it does. I don't think there will be a problem. 11:58:19 samb: no, because the training requirements don't care about what you are wielding 11:58:24 just what you are carrying 11:58:25 oh, good 11:58:29 and if you've played a minotaur or an octopode it'll be immediately obvious that it's doing the same thing as their attacks when it gives you horns/tentacles 11:59:18 I was wondering because I was thinking about what to say about the requirements in the "skill-menu" entry in help.txt 12:01:36 SamB: you 12:01:40 are updating it? Thanks! 12:01:51 dpeg: yeah, I noticed that '!' was still listed there 12:02:10 even though it is seemingly no longer relevant outside of wizmode 12:02:26 SamB: very observant, more thanks for that 12:02:40 Docs are always trailing behind 12:05:00 it took me a bit to figure out this wasn't hard-coded in C++ 12:06:32 but I guess it's a bit long for that 12:06:37 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 12:10:14 hmm, for spell schools, are there other ways to satisfy the requirement besides knowing a spell? 12:10:50 like, rods? 12:11:53 Why would rods help? 12:12:14 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 12:12:25 hmm, I know I've had items that said that knowing a certain spell school would help them deal thematicly-appropriate damage 12:13:12 er. not school, maybe, but skill anyway 12:13:53 okay, I guess I *was* using the right term 12:14:10 samb: you know the skill training requirements haven't actually been coded yet, right? (or have they?) 12:14:19 elliptic: I know 12:14:25 or, at least, suspected 12:14:52 for spell schools, I think the only requirement is having a spell in that school memorized 12:15:26 the only items I know that use spell skills are the elemental summoning items 12:15:39 one could make an exception for those but I'd rather not 12:15:57 (currently they don't train the corresponding spell skill) 12:16:07 ah, okay 12:16:21 oh, and pain weapons and enhancer staves use spell skills for melee 12:16:38 yeah, I think I was thinking of enhancers 12:16:41 but again, I think it is fine to force people to learn a spell in that spell school 12:16:59 hmm, i don't seem able to choose what skills to train with potions of xp any more 12:17:12 yeah, the description seemed to imply you'd need to know a spell to get the skill in the first place 12:17:19 MarvinPA_: maybe you just need to pick first? 12:17:33 you're supposed to be able to pick on the skill menu that pops up when you quaff one 12:17:38 but they don't toggle any more 12:17:55 ah, so it pops up but doesn't work :-) 12:18:19 looks like it's caused by skill_focus = false 12:18:44 oh, did that break because you can't normally turn that off? 12:19:14 marvinpa_: I think best would be if you could focus skills in the !exp screen even with skill_focus = false 12:19:18 yeah 12:19:19 since that is the one place it is useful 12:19:26 there certainly seems to be a lot of questionable code in there now 12:20:03 code that makes me say "can that code ever run anymore?" 12:21:37 is it intentional nagas/warriors get the "magic leaks into the air" being hit by antimagic? 12:21:54 their spell is a natural ability after all 12:22:34 that bug has been there for a while, yeah 12:22:36 no (although they can still use their poison spit) 12:22:49 it doesn't actually cause them to lose turns, yeah 12:23:00 hmm, now I notice that the help still says "You can toggle a skill" 12:23:12 still should be fixed but figuring out what antimagic should affect is such a pain :/ 12:23:16 even though, in the default configuration, it actually cycles 12:24:03 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:26:17 hmm, what is the default color's name? 12:29:16 * SamB wishes crawl wouldn't forget your previous gametype/character selections just because you saved, restored, and finished a game... 12:30:11 huh, is there a way to do soft linebreaks in help text? 12:31:11 I guess that wouldn't work too well with indentation, though, would it... 12:33:15 hm, a volcano in lair... did someone fix vault generation? 12:36:09 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 12:40:08 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:44:49 elliptic: yes, Zaba! 12:48:41 cool 12:58:01 Tr still start with nasty pots (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4637) by Wop 13:01:04 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:02:47 -!- Galefury has joined ##crawl-dev 13:02:51 -!- Galefury is now known as alefury 13:20:45 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:23:25 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: bye!] 13:47:27 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 13:57:07 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:57:33 hmm, is there something slightly less drastic than ASSERT? 14:00:59 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 14:02:30 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:03:28 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:07:17 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:08:30 kilobyte: this message: 14:08:45 "Casting this spell will cause instant excommunication!" 14:08:45 " Really cast?" : 14:08:45 14:09:04 is the text on the second line supposed to be light red, or not? 14:25:17 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:27:45 SamB: best to !tell 14:28:52 !tell kilobyte was the "" in that excommunication warning prompt supposed to be a start tag, or an end tag? 14:28:53 SamB: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 14:30:36 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:32:51 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:37:39 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 14:38:09 cap is a decent weapon for a cloth 14:38:11 Accuracy rating: +4 Damage rating: 7 Base attack delay: 120% 14:38:21 or so says the db 14:40:38 what db? 14:42:10 ??cap 14:42:11 cap[1/1]: A cap at +0 does not boost AC, but can be enchanted. Caps can also grant Intelligence or See Invis. Note that a +0 cap is better than nothing against acid attacks, though the cap is vulnerable to erosion from that attack. Players with horns can wear caps. 14:42:17 ...not that one, then,. 14:42:29 in-game 14:42:34 ?/icap 14:42:49 ah 14:43:17 it doesn't say that in the description of an actual cap, fortunately :P 14:43:48 I guess it thinks a cap is a sabre 14:43:59 since that's what those stats are 14:44:03 I wonder why though 14:44:19 indeed 14:44:23 yeah, it's pretty strange (and funny) 14:45:38 none of the other armour I'm trying is pretending to be a weapon 14:48:12 description for "Bottle Blood 14:48:12 " needs updating now that you get a free butchering tool 14:48:31 (dangit, invisible newlines! I'll get you yet!) 14:51:33 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 14:52:10 autocompleting for captain's cutlass, maybe? 14:52:38 haha 14:53:08 galehar: made a table of examples, was quite some work :) 14:53:28 dpeg: thanks. I think it's worth it! 14:53:28 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:eating&#the_proposal 14:53:52 I am not sure that the numbers are perfect. But check yourself. They're mostly okay, in my opinion. 14:54:08 And anyone else too, of course! 14:55:31 sure, I won't mind tweaking the numbers a bit if needed (if I end up implementing it). The first thing to get right is the formula. 14:56:30 If I had any spreadsheet skills, I'd have used that. 14:56:32 so, result is the nutrition multiplier, right? 14:56:35 yes 14:56:49 The bias in favour of herbivore is intended. 14:57:38 My questions are: is herbivore 2 too harsh towards chunks? 0.08 looks mean. And is herbivore 3 better than herbivore 2? (Note that the player can choose...) 14:58:02 I said a couple of examples, I wasn't expecting that (but that's great!) 14:59:18 also, I didn't realized that the multiplier was for each level of the mutation. So those examples help a lot to understand it. 14:59:55 Took me a while to realise that too, so I thought I'd better be systematic. 14:59:59 galehar: I'm no longer getting random points of rot, but now I'm getting negative points of rot sometimes when I train fighting... like HP: 48/92 (91) 15:00:56 weird 15:01:30 elliptic: maybe put a savefile on mantis so I can debug it 15:01:42 or just a link here 15:01:45 like the other rot bug, it goes away if you save and reload 15:01:48 so this is hard 15:01:51 ah ok 15:02:11 it doesn't happen all the time when I raise fighting, too... not sure exactly what conditions 15:02:21 will look into it as soon as I finish my little tweak to the skill system 15:02:34 it might have something to do with raising fighting by a lot at once 15:03:30 elliptic: comments on food table? 15:05:07 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:05:07 -!- ais523 has quit [Changing host] 15:05:07 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:08:50 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:08:56 dpeg: herbivore 2 looks pretty terrible 15:09:14 elliptic: I know. 15:09:36 chunks don't work and bread is not near the level of herbi 3 15:10:20 should perhaps use content/6 like for carnivore and increase base 15:13:57 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 15:17:55 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:19:43 the proposal says herbivore slows digestion speed, but spriggans still get slow meta 3 15:20:06 sounds weird 15:20:40 alefury: wouldn't be necessary, yes 15:21:01 I do think, however, that Carnivore and Herbivore are much more interesting than Slow/Fast Digestion. 15:21:07 yep 15:21:34 according to the proposal herbi 3 roughly halves digestion speed 15:21:44 no idea how that relates to slow metabolism 15:23:56 dpeg: can try without the power (like I originially understood it). Mutation level only affect preference (which already has a nutrition multiplier). Should make things a bit more linear. 15:24:52 perhaps enough, yes 15:25:31 carni 3 allows you to eat around the clock, and herbi 3 slows down digestion (this should stay multiplicative) 15:25:38 the preferences in the last line of the table are switched i think 15:31:33 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 15:31:33 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:31:59 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest50351 15:32:04 true! 15:34:26 elliptic: what do you think about reducing the breath timer for yellow drac acid spit a bit? i don't think it should be rapid-fire like it used to be but it feels like the most lacking of the breaths, currently 15:34:43 doing something to help yellow breath would be nice, yeah 15:34:55 not sure whether reducing the breath timer will help that much 15:35:14 well, the damage is alright 15:35:23 it just doesn't have any particularly useful side effects like most of the other breaths 15:36:12 a while ago i toyed with the idea of it splashing to adjacent enemies like the mottled breath does, or even just being a radius 1 explosion, those might be a bit much though 15:36:26 fun though acidsplosions would be 15:38:10 MarvinPA: let it grow with XL! 15:39:07 At certain power, acid breath hitting walls could make them temporarily acidic. 15:40:07 galehar: I support the linear approach for food & mutations; don't think I can redo the table to night. 15:47:34 -!- casmith789 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:50:54 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:54:40 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0/20110922153450]] 15:55:44 -!- alefury has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:56:50 03galehar * r905850ebe841 10/crawl-ref/source/ (29 files): Replace the unknown skill dance by skill training restrictions. 15:59:02 MONS equipment added too late for spawn messages (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4638) by SamB 16:06:07 03MarvinPA * r20e9f9d15443 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc: Don't start transmuters with identified potions 16:06:08 03MarvinPA * r58b7734e2b6e 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Reduce the breath timer on yellow drac acid spit 16:06:08 03MarvinPA * r7a7453bcfee9 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/ability.txt: Update Bottle Blood description 16:06:18 03MarvinPA * ra157125a757e 10/crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Adjust pacification targeting again, don't target neutrals by default 16:08:17 * SamB rebases on top of galehar's commit and restarts rebuilding 16:12:00 complaints about Beastly Appendage on the forum 16:12:46 Beastly Appendage, I saw them in concert once 16:13:46 i'm mid-transmuter and it was just fine on d:1 16:14:42 although i usually played transmuters without bothering to get fulsome/evap anyway 16:14:44 I tried it out, the duration seems really short early-game, such that it was annoying to keep it up (but my MP was regenerating at about the rate required) 16:15:08 won't be a problem once we get sustains in :D 16:15:25 seemed to last long enough for a single encounter almost all the time, at least 16:15:37 yep, it's more a UI nightmare than anything else 16:15:56 Eronarn: if the duration is too short, casting it permanently will just drain your MP 16:16:36 MarvinPA: what do you think of larger yellow drac breaths with growth? 16:16:38 i imagine it can be fine-tuned, anyway, but the concept is great and tm feels much better for having it instead of fulsome/evap 16:17:11 dpeg: hmm, could be interesting, although more challenging to implement i expect :P 16:17:16 Just talked to jpeg, btw, and she is fond of Evaporate and dislikes throwing potions for anyone. 16:18:18 letting everyone use bad potions is the road to nethack 16:18:42 i think someone (galehar?) mentioned some idea to cut down on the number of effects evap can create, that sounded like quite a nice idea to me 16:18:46 That's a pretty long road, though. Probably also winded. 16:19:05 MarvinPA: yes, I agree. And for getting the better ones, skill could perhaps matter more? 16:19:10 i disagree. fossilizing your devteam is the road to nethack. 16:19:11 players never throw potions in NetHack 16:19:15 I agree that Evap without FD leaves the resource base too small (unlike the items needed for S2S, say) and that corpses are so prevalent that using potions does not feel like a restriction. The latter could be addressed, imo. 16:19:16 keep evap in but not for transmuters, kthx 16:19:16 it's just a really really bad strategy 16:19:39 possibly, although since it's just a level 2 spell it doesn't really need to scale much for high power 16:19:53 bhaak: some devs are almost fully fossilised already. I think I have only a few weeks until mummification is scheduled. 16:20:17 MarvinPA: one bit we could change. 16:20:26 omg, did you get infected by the pope? 16:20:33 we have a plentiful supply of fresh meat alongside that, though :P 16:20:39 Hey! *I* infected the pope! 16:20:45 dpeg: changing one bit at a time is the road to fossilization. 16:20:58 dpeg: impossible! not even you are this old! 16:21:14 Give Stalker/Alchemist more starting potions, increase FD level, for example. 16:21:49 bhaak: what's wrong with octogenarian devs? You, you ... ageist! 16:22:28 galehar: not having a global plan is one, yes. The other one is not thinking. Imo, the NH devteam is pretty good at both. 16:23:17 old coders don't learn new languages and tricks. "$FEATURE? we did that in lisp 30 years ago!" 16:23:47 * dpeg points out that he knows no languages unless you count 8 bit assembler. Where's my punch cards, damnit?! 16:24:06 'not even german?' 16:24:21 Don't think that German is good for adding gods to Crawl. 16:24:42 used right, it would be rather scary 16:25:10 dpeg: 8 bit asm for which platform? 16:25:12 dpeg: was a joke. If you change one bit of data at a time... (I guess it's a coder's joke) 16:25:15 there isn't a constant one 16:25:17 ais523: 7501 16:25:26 heh, I used to know 6502 asm 16:25:39 and could probably pick it back up again quite easily 16:25:57 don't go into details, please, this would destroy my credulity as an ancient, wise man 16:26:22 knowing assembler gives you a head start in learning java bytecode 16:27:03 One tavern thread came up with a message for when someone tramples you into a wall. Do we want to effect for the message, as well? 16:28:07 "The [foo] pushes you into the wall." [extra damage] 16:28:35 The foo crushes you against the wall. 16:28:40 "You get forcefully wedged into a crevice by the [foo]." 16:28:40 also fine 16:29:01 bhaak: NH players would expect that the "forcefully" carries deeper meaning. 16:29:12 not to mention the "crevice" 16:30:07 leaves room for future code enhancements :-) 16:31:03 i seem to automatically detect mimics in trunk right now 16:31:11 is that a feature of my antennaes or a bug? 16:31:17 are you worshipping ash? 16:31:21 negatory 16:31:22 sif 16:31:32 might be antennae though? 16:31:35 antennae would be it, i think 16:31:36 yeah 16:31:41 well if you get close enough then it makes sense the antennae would do it 16:31:43 indeed 16:31:47 they don't have full los range though iirc 16:31:54 just wasn't sure if it was intended 16:33:37 -!- dtsund is now known as dtsund-afk 16:35:14 -!- alefury has joined ##crawl-dev 16:39:15 request focused skill tiles (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4639) by galehar 16:42:38 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 16:44:29 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:46:50 -!- dtsund-afk is now known as dtsund 16:48:07 03elliptic * rd2e2dc89340d 10/crawl-ref/source/hiscores.cc: Cap the effect of gold on score. 16:50:01 -!- dtsund is now known as dtsund-afk 16:50:07 elliptic: I reacted too strongly when score discussed. The change you had in mind (I think it was about taking runes for non-winners into account) is okay. 16:50:33 *was 16:50:41 dpeg: okay :) 16:51:01 elliptic: as it will neither change the very low nor the very high end, you can proceed, if you still want to. 16:51:16 if I make such a change, I'll leave winning scores totally unchanged 16:51:42 yes 16:51:50 and just add in a moderate term for non-winners with runes 16:52:37 hi 16:52:42 Which would actually make mid-range scores more meaningful (while allowing us to keep going with the current server scorings). 16:52:51 due: Hi! We talked holy today! 16:53:25 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 16:54:08 03galehar * rd1922a1679b5 10/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc: Fix save compat. 16:54:08 awesome! 17:02:09 03galehar * r6cfc8c393b1b 10/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc: Much better fix to save compat. 17:10:06 what's the difference between MAX_NUM_GODS and NUM_GODS? 17:12:30 Two, by my count! 17:13:23 It looks like MAX_NUM_GODS is an upper cap to keep datasizes consistent? Maybe for saves. 17:13:32 NUM_GODS is in the enum as the last entry. 17:13:41 seems like MAX_NUM_GODS is useless and will make the game crash if we forget to update it when we add the third god from now 17:14:11 oh right, it allows use to keep save compat when adding gods 17:14:48 we should have a compile assert to make sure NUM_GODS <= MAX_NUM_GODS 17:15:00 I wonder what will happen with random gods. 17:15:14 crashes! 17:15:20 I hope not! 17:15:59 -!- dtsund-afk is now known as dtsund 17:16:12 if we want to keep track of penance and everything with each of the random god, then we'll have to cap their number per games 17:16:20 galehar: sure 17:16:27 shouldn't be a problem since you proposed less than 1 per game :) 17:16:30 they'll be like ghosts 17:16:43 oh, a game could have more than one :) 17:17:00 just on average it'd be <1 17:17:14 3 is a reasonable max (R, N and G) 17:17:25 But we can add an artificial limit (like 5 or so) 17:17:59 or 27 - NUM_GODS 17:18:17 27 random gods per game, one on each dungeon floor 17:18:53 Well, in my grand plan of things, there'd be 27 ordinary gods at some point (including niche gods that come up only rarely) 17:19:15 god of mulching 17:19:25 And today I noticed for the first time that we have 28 backgrounds. Overflow! Red alert!! 17:20:55 no, no, as long as it's less than 52 17:21:19 i think you mean 81 17:21:24 52 is an arbitrary number forced upon us by the Phoenicians and their followers. 27 is the real deal! 17:21:36 Eronarn: you must be using a different alphabet 17:21:52 dpeg: and here I thought it was the romans or summat! 17:22:02 Wrong, all wrong! 17:22:10 SamB: 27 = 3^3 17:24:16 dpeg: St is the weak link. But I'd rather replace it by an alchemist to keep fulsome/evap rather than just removing it and the spells. 17:24:29 galehar: sure, same here 17:25:10 appart from that, I don't know which background to trash. But I'm confident that the loser will naturally emerge at some point :) 17:25:13 We got some more backgrounds when MarvinPA removed starting choices, which was good, of course. (Also, in the grand scheme of things, backgrounds count a lot less than species and gods.) 17:25:17 Wanderer 17:25:25 start scumming target 17:25:42 true 17:27:41 combine all of fe/ie/ae/ee into a single elementalist that gets to choose their starting book 17:27:53 no 17:28:03 it's been suggested many times already 17:28:08 (we got more backgrounds from splitting some old ones, too) 17:28:15 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:28:18 like ck -> ck, ak 17:28:22 the only thing they have in common is a word in the background name. Playstyle is different 17:28:26 fewer startup choices > exactly 27 backgrounds 17:29:38 I suppose we could use stuff like Ａ ... 17:29:38 playstyle is different for fi who choose different gods, too :P 17:29:48 pointless 17:29:50 i think having lots of backgrounds is fine :P 17:29:56 but I dunno how to type that, and it doesn't seem to have good font coverage. 17:30:29 it does have the dubious advantage of having an unambiguous wcwidth, though 17:30:46 what? 17:31:08 a-zA-Z gets us to 52. i don't think we need to worry beyond that for now 17:31:30 an overly long list can be intimidating new players 17:31:42 well, they were saying how we shouldn't listen to the puny Phoenicians 17:31:56 we do have them divided into groups, too 17:32:06 so I figured we could take a play from the Japanese 17:32:32 dpeg: right, and having to choose twice from among 30 choices isn't intimidating already? (of course, more is worse) 17:32:45 galehar: it is, it is. 17:32:59 I propose restricted access from time to time :) 17:33:01 just make everone wanderers 17:33:10 *everyone 17:33:19 s/wanderer/mdfi/ 17:34:24 also, I think the single-width monsters have tormented us long enough 17:34:46 i don't think it makes sense to axe starting choices completely to make it more open to new players. 17:35:17 galehar: I think it would really benefit new players if there were very few, carefully selected choices. But few folks around here can put themselves in the mind frame of a newbie, so the usual reply is: "I don't want to unlock any combinations." When I offer to make restriction a default, I get: "But it should default to off." 17:35:27 i think it would make more sense to hide some, emphasize the simpler choices 17:35:40 Zannick: yes 17:35:50 dpeg: there's hint mode with 3 choices 17:36:07 like the toggle on the skills screen 17:36:10 galehar: yes, but the new survey (jpeg and I are preparing it) will show how much it is really used. 17:36:11 show some vs show all 17:36:58 dpeg: probably not a lot given how it's not maintained and bugs are never reported 17:37:02 dpeg: how about tuning some to actually be newbie-friendly somehow? 17:37:32 and just saying "this, this, and this combination are especially newbie-friendly" 17:37:33 galehar: yes. We really need maintainers for (a) tutorial, (b) hints mode, (c) Sprint, (d) Zot Defence. 17:38:29 galehar: also, you cannot expect the target audience of hints mode to submit bug reports. 17:38:58 * SamB feels excluded 17:39:28 (e) tiles 17:39:44 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:39:44 SamB: we do this already with hints mode. My point is that background and species list should be much shorter for a new player. 17:39:44 bah, tiles! 17:39:48 I don't have time to maintain yet another roguelike, or I'd look into hints mode, which I rather like 17:39:49 galehar: and that, yes. 17:40:16 also, I'm not sure I'm good enough at Crawl to come up with decent hints 17:40:27 -!- Brannock has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:40:35 ais523: come to us! We have quick, open development, where stuff actually happens. And we will be leader of the pack by 2013 and pay dividends of at least $1.4 -- oh wait, wrong channel. 17:40:41 did anyone fix my hints mode bug? 17:40:48 the point of hints is to explain the basics of the game, not how to play it well 17:40:49 SamB: ah, sorry 17:41:41 (the one where the half-HP hint doesn't mention stuff like "hand of trog" as potentially helpful) 17:42:12 I don't remember this one 17:42:57 it looks like 17:43:02 it's not turning up as open... 17:43:43 ... or did I never actually report that? 17:44:03 * SamB could have sworn he had 17:44:25 you know, when I think hard, I have a faint memory of it. I think you reported it. 17:44:30 * dpeg suspects women, the devil or, even worse, Nethack interfering. 17:44:47 * galehar suspects he germans 17:44:49 the matrix has been edited 17:44:53 maybe I did something odd, like comment on someone else's bug or something 17:44:53 *the 17:45:12 or *gasp* report it without first creating an account? 17:45:23 SamB: did you note any tanks stalking you lately? 17:45:33 no 17:45:39 I haven't heard any tanks at all 17:45:40 galehar: no, cannot be 17:45:58 -!- due has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:46:08 oh, or possibly I'm blind 17:46:28 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4375 17:47:23 -!- Brannock has joined ##crawl-dev 17:47:34 A maintainer wouldn't have to fix all (or actually any) of the stuff reported in the area of maintainance. It'd suffice to sort items by severity and report regularly. 17:48:25 * SamB wishes his patches weren't so backlogged 17:48:39 well there are many ways to counter poison. Put a ring of regeneration, invoke Ely's purification or Trog's hand... But this is hint mode. We have to keep it simple and generic. 17:48:58 * dpeg contemplates an ad in the Times: "Upcoming enterprise (specialties sudden death and demonisation) hires maintainers." 17:48:58 -!- due has joined ##crawl-dev 17:48:58 -!- due has quit [Changing host] 17:48:58 -!- due has joined ##crawl-dev 17:49:08 well, I figured since berserker was one of the options, that ought to be mentioned... 17:49:15 galehar: it doesn't necessarily have to be generic, it could be customized to the character's situation 17:49:19 at least when it was actually available 17:49:29 SamB: if you were maintainer, it'd be _your_ decision! Hinthint :) 17:49:33 AceHack hints mode checks to see if you know force bolt before recommending the use of attack spells, for instance 17:49:45 (leading to a hilarious bug when I found a spellbook of force bolt late on as a valk) 17:50:04 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 17:50:22 well, it's true, we could add checks for available options to the player and hint at that 17:50:28 dpeg: I'm not even a committer! 17:50:54 SamB: see ^ -- not necessary. Care for the subject is much more relevant. 17:51:05 I mean, I am technically able to place commits into the repository, but only on branches with really odd names 17:51:15 SamB: you have submitted many patches, you could become one. Just keep poking us to review them from time to time :P 17:51:42 could someone look at cherry-picking some of the stuff from https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/merge_requests/9 ? 17:52:06 I doubt any one person can really take them all at this point... 17:52:34 this one is huge and it's late. 17:52:38 SamB: this is the wrong place to ask in general. People are busy or chatting. And "some of the stuff" isn't too good either :) Present a list of good stuff! 17:53:13 we'll look at them one at a time. Sometimes, nobody's available. Keep trying. 17:53:52 well, for example, I've got a couple of patches for zot defence abilities; one that puts them on capital letters so they don't get mixed together with normal ones, and another that gives them their own menu section 17:54:14 dpeg: what do you mean it's the wrong place to ask? He's submitting patches. 17:54:17 SamB: sounds both good. You would also make a fine ZD maintainer! 17:54:36 dpeg: I'd feel better about that if I'd ever passed, uh 17:54:38 galehar: asking is always fine, but he should also upload them to Mantis, so they're not forgotten. 17:54:51 he has 17:55:00 Good! Pushing here is fine. 17:55:19 looks like I've only hit level 11 in zotdef... 17:55:35 I apologise, didn't know they're waiting already on Mantis. Sorry. 17:55:57 dpeg: I should probably be making more mantiss issues about some of this stuff 17:56:10 but some of it is so tiny it doesn't seem worth the trouble 17:57:22 SamB: don't despair. keep poking us and we'll find the time to review and commit your code (assuming it's good of course). We need more devs, we won't ignore people knocking on the door. 17:57:36 I know 17:57:51 I guess kilobyte is busy with his kitten... 17:58:07 kilobyte is doing a lot of commits. 17:58:10 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 17:58:14 and I am with the skill system 17:59:10 I'm stealing some of your commit message for the help screen, btw ;-P 18:02:08 03galehar * r6f4b0b0e17f4 10/crawl-ref/source/tilereg-skl.cc: Tiles: update the skill panel regarding the latest skill changes. 18:02:09 03galehar * raf4cf4cc827c 10/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc: More save compat fixing. 18:13:56 updating the help screen (and the manual) is great 18:17:34 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: zzz] 18:18:26 !tell galehar thanks for taking a look 18:18:27 SamB: OK, I'll let galehar know. 18:29:45 !tell kilobyte I designed catlobes with the idea of making them a good match for players at xl12, perhaps 12 should be the pivot point for the petrification breath change rather than 14 18:29:45 Wensley: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 18:39:33 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:47:36 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:08 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:56:32 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 19:02:30 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: Stay sane inside insanity!] 19:03:02 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:13:59 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:23:08 it's funny... ohloh thinks I've contributed to projects I never touched, just because a they are developed as branches of Linux and my one patch made it upstream successfully... 19:29:33 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:32:16 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:54:54 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 19:58:11 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:59:01 It's kind of annoying that the CREDITS file does not, as a rule, list aliases (IRC nicks, SVN usernames, and the like) *or* email addresses... 19:59:59 And yes, I know crawl uses git *now*, but that doesn't make the migrated SVN commits' authorship any easier to grok 20:02:44 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:08:04 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 20:16:02 -!- dtsund is now known as dtsund-afk 20:22:31 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 20:52:37 -!- dtsund-afk is now known as dtsund 21:00:50 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 21:05:40 !tell helmen you need to specify the whole make line in the "install" rule again (yeah I know this doesn't make sense). If you don't need to have a separate compile and install step (like, non-root vs root), just append "install" in the first invocation. 21:05:41 kilobyte: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 21:05:41 kilobyte: OK, I'll let helmen know. 21:25:45 Resting next to wall, as Jiyvite, throws unnecessary spam (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4640) by Kyrris 21:46:12 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 21:51:23 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:00:33 -!- Danei has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:02:37 -!- mikee_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:02:47 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:04:46 -!- Danei has joined ##crawl-dev 22:05:01 -!- ZorbaGama has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:05:57 potion mimic became "rune mimic" (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4641) by st 22:10:39 -!- mikee_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:10:47 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:17:08 -!- ZorbaBeta has joined ##crawl-dev 22:19:46 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:26:17 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 22:31:31 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 22:32:11 -!- mikee_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:03:28 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:16:09 is the D:13 webfest going to go in 0.10 23:22:40 the what? 23:22:42 st_: hey, that rune mimic bug 23:22:52 oh, spider webs, you mean? 23:22:55 st_: what do you mean by "became"? i can't see the save, but i think i know the problem 23:23:07 * SamB was trying to figure out what D:13 had to do with webtiles 23:25:28 Zannick: when I moved towards it, it IDed as a mimic and it's name was rune mimic 23:25:58 was it an id'ed potion? ie. do you know what potion it appeared as? 23:26:48 I don't remember, but I think it was unIDed 23:26:52 okay 23:28:08 well, i think i know what potion it was ;) 23:35:30 -!- Danei has quit [*.net *.split] 23:35:30 -!- due has quit [*.net *.split] 23:35:30 -!- rax has quit [*.net *.split] 23:35:31 -!- Fyren has quit [*.net *.split] 23:35:31 -!- krel has quit [*.net *.split] 23:38:12 -!- Danei has joined ##crawl-dev 23:38:13 -!- krel has joined ##crawl-dev 23:38:49 in any case, thanks for the report, i uploaded a patch 23:38:52 -!- Brannock has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:38:56 -!- |amethyst has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:39:43 -!- SamB has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:40:10 03kilobyte * r54b74c6ae441 10/crawl-ref/source/hiscores.cc: Give a small amount of points for runes for non-winners. 23:40:13 03kilobyte * r50333556e9a9 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Add a compile-time check for NUM_GODS <= MAX_NUM_GODS. 23:40:13 03kilobyte * r0d577541578b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Un67's tile for ordinary staff. 23:40:24 03kilobyte * r8d086297304d 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-cast.cc: Fix an invalid colour closing tag. 23:40:24 03kilobyte * r6eb9077a6d63 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Don't warn Jiyvaites about slime walls, they're immune. 23:44:03 -!- due has joined ##crawl-dev 23:44:03 -!- rax has joined ##crawl-dev 23:44:03 -!- Fyren has joined ##crawl-dev 23:52:47 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev