00:16:01 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:38:51 Perhaps monster list could show disturbances? 01:09:04 -!- joosa has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:10:18 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 01:11:22 -!- joosa has joined ##crawl-dev 01:37:25 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:38:33 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 01:38:33 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 01:47:59 KidC the Thaumaturge (L13 DDNe) (Lair:2) 01:50:54 !lm KidC crash -log 01:50:54 1. KidC, XL13 DDNe, T:32814 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/KidC/crash-KidC-20110927-064758.txt 01:52:05 03elliptic * r149b3fbe8d00 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Halve stealth when swift. 01:52:15 03elliptic * r621659239e74 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/spells.txt: Add a sentence about the drawbacks of Swiftness to its description. 01:52:16 03elliptic * r503bffee122b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc player.cc): Make swiftness halve your passive detection rate for traps and doors. 01:54:52 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:58:01 What's exactly the point of player yellow draconians? Unlike other dracs they get no aptitude, the obscure resistance they get loses the actually useful part, worst breath. 01:59:16 -!- Galefury has joined ##crawl-dev 02:00:05 does the breath still not have a timeout? 02:00:29 that was the main unique thing about them in the past at least... not really very exciting of course 02:00:35 moin 02:02:51 has a timeout 02:04:06 if they have a timeout now then I agree they are pretty lame, yes 02:05:17 five breaths per a chunk, too 02:07:17 their melee corrodes gear you get from enemies, too 02:07:45 and the bleeding from the breath is pretty much useless 02:13:59 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-950-gec70764 (32) 02:24:08 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:26:58 b0rsuk had some good ideas how to buff them in the wiki iirc 02:28:15 1: every single it with acid corrodes armour, 2: replace bleeding effect with corrosion of natural carapace 02:28:49 if the melee corrosion was removed, you'd get the choice if you want to corrode monster equipment or not 02:29:04 (haven't played a yellow drac, don't know how that is) 02:42:05 03elliptic * r41f8dc6525b1 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Give Antaeus sense invisible. 02:43:31 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:47:57 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:48:20 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 03:01:23 -!- Galefury has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:04:31 electrocution discharge in water crashes the game (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4623) by Joellercoaster 03:16:57 my plan for Tm: -Fulsome -Evap, Tmut1 spell "Beastly Appendage" that gives you temporarily randomly one of: big horns, talons, tentacles, beak that you did not have yet. Uses DUR_TRANSFORMATION so mutually exclusive with itself or transforms. 03:17:30 perhaps claws too but that's too similar to blade hands 03:18:15 sounds reasonable to me 03:18:54 I feel as though stalker could be removed, EE already has the tools for the tmut stabbing route (they could get dig and they'd have all St spells besides fulsome and evap) 03:19:50 kilobyte: if you have good gear in some slot you don't want merged, you might recast until you get the mutation you want. Maybe not a big problem if the spell is only useful in the early game. 03:20:45 you have limited time to recast usually anyway 03:20:54 what's the name of the early vault with non-flying demons on a lava island? 03:20:54 especially if the spell has short duration 03:22:04 it could use a wider lava to avoid being completely trivialised by any random polearm 03:22:52 kilobyte: Sounds good to me too. 03:23:17 it's trivialised by a lot of things. 03:24:00 mephitic cloud, for example, affects a good few of the demons, meaning tons of free exp for meph users 03:24:16 (unless this was changed, of course) 03:24:59 I've Confused them into the lava, too, but it takes a bit more effort and food 03:25:25 I think that vault is a lost cause and should just be removed, really 03:26:08 a stack of darts, a sling, etc 03:27:31 at least if it's darts it's harder to take them down and they can throw the darts back sometimes, and slings either have a similar problem or waste valuable bullets 03:27:53 polearms are probably a pretty bad offender here though 03:34:40 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 03:36:08 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 03:36:08 03elliptic * rb6080495556b 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Fix crash with electrocution discharge in water (#4623). 03:40:32 Removing the vault sounds reasonable. 03:56:29 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:02:18 I never liked it, it's either annoying or free XP 04:03:57 The river starting vault? 04:04:11 Lava island with demons? 04:06:04 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 04:06:14 hi dpeg! 04:07:01 Hi! 04:07:16 Nice work on the ziggurats. I am afraid it behoves to me to strike out what's been done on the wiki page? :) 04:08:30 dpeg: plan for Tm: remove Fulsome and Evap (Stalkers already have it), give them a L1 transformation "Beastly Appendage" that gives you horns, tentacles, beak or talons. 04:09:26 heck, even without a compensation Tm could still be powerful: S2S is a good spell no one uses because of overpowered Evap and having no spell slots left for transformations 04:10:43 Restricting the potion business to one background sounds good to me. 04:11:03 ooh I'm all for them loving evap and fulsome 04:11:19 I heard about the Beast spell idea, and I am not convinced: wouldn't players keep casting until they get the best? And/or the one not conflicting with their gear? 04:11:49 While we're talking backgrounds, I would like to do Fighters later on. 04:12:23 if it is low-duration and useless later on because it doesn't stack with other forms, I don't think that will be a problem 04:12:37 dpeg: just one of them could be enough 04:12:38 however I don't think it is really needed either 04:13:02 It pushes Tmut even more in the UC direction. I am not much of a transmuter -- is this what we want? 04:13:11 so what? Just fixed tentacles? Or nothing at all? 04:14:11 Tentacles would allow some constriction for everyone. Is that good? 04:14:25 dpeg: the thing is, Evaporate is massively overpowered, and thus dominates the background's playstyle. So instead of being a form fighter, you mess with potions. 04:14:38 Yes, I support leaving it to Stalkers. 04:14:55 (And we can nerf it later, but now we talk about Transmuters.) 04:14:58 dpeg: could you suggest some other L1 transform? 04:15:09 instead of being tmut stabbers stalker becomes about messing with potions... 04:15:31 st_: stalker already is about that, it's the only useful spell they have 04:15:39 pure stabber goes As anyway 04:15:47 I would shed no tears for a complete removal of fulsome/evap 04:15:48 En actually 04:16:05 for stab with spells, yes 04:16:06 st_: yeah. Tedious due to component management. 04:16:21 As is blowgun + a few stabs 04:16:33 I've been playing them wrong all my life! 04:16:47 Evaporate is definitely okay as a spell, it is Fulsome which might be problematic. But that is another issue. 04:17:07 and an L2 spell that emulates L6 ones (poisonous cloud) with low-end components, or does that+slowing+rot or unresistible polymorph with high-end ones 04:17:13 kilobyte: what about spines as L1 spell? 04:17:40 kilobyte: this is much less of an issue if there the base material is finite. 04:18:03 could work, might be too powerful but I don't know how Spines 1 work 04:19:51 Hedgehog Form? You lose about any offense but get big spines. 04:20:16 -!- st__ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:20:27 perhaps 04:20:44 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:20:48 -!- st__ is now known as st_ 04:21:05 did my message about homunculus get through? 04:21:32 no 04:22:07 well I was just saying that I think it's a much cooler spell for potion usage than evap 04:22:14 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 04:22:16 yeah 04:23:28 elliptic, due, Keskitalo: what would you say about L1 Hedgehog Form? Bat-level offense (ie, practically none), spines? 04:24:13 not sure "wait for spines to kill things or for things to kill you first" is very interesting 04:25:18 I just intended it to be a small melee booster, not really a form. (Like blade hands, only with a different type.) 04:26:17 hmm right 04:26:17 so you might "slam" people with your body to get them onto spines -- ie, a form of offense 04:27:03 I think simply giving horns or talons or some such would be better 04:28:00 so back to the original idea then? Would randomness or a fixed one would be better? 04:29:39 elliptic: why? One is a plain UC boost, but the other makes fighting several monsters at once a little more interesting. 04:30:27 you aren't likely to be fighting several monsters at once on d:1 04:31:17 elliptic: yes, but the spell could scale with power. 04:31:36 what power? people are going to switch to spider form at L3 or L4 04:32:39 It doesn't have to be like this. 04:33:47 The question is whether we want a spell that is completely superseded by a successor spell, or a spell that has occasional appeal later on (because it does something unique). If we can achieve the latter, it is always better, imo. 04:37:19 I might be too optimistic here, and it might also not be a good idea to make such a spell (if used at all) L1. 04:37:55 I think coming up with a L1 spell that is both balanced and continues to be useful later on for reasons other than being L1 will be hard 04:37:59 yes 04:38:01 hard to balance a level 1 spell this way -- later on it would be trivial to cast and take no mana 04:38:12 but, we could have two 04:38:22 kilobyte: well, with forms it is a bit easier, because you can only use one of them. 04:38:48 Although players would complain why they can't use Hands with Spines :O 04:39:05 there are cool ideas to explore... like, say, Flame Form 04:39:24 also passive damage? 04:39:36 (ok, this one is not literally cool :p) 04:39:39 hehe 04:40:13 not only passive -- you can move a tongue (pseudopod?) onto someone 04:40:36 I like passive damage because of tunnels vs open. 04:40:49 Additional features are good, of course. 04:41:33 ie, hit them, just with 100% fire damage so imps laugh at you 04:41:33 or a more humanoid flame, like those in bad american comics 04:41:35 or a big bad humanoid hedgehog for that matter 04:42:28 kilobyte: I liked the original idea, but I probably missed some discussion in between? 04:42:51 ..or after! 04:42:55 Hedgehog Form should give a speed boost and turn you blue. 04:43:14 Keskitalo: not much; today and yesterday we mostly spewed hatred towards Evap 04:43:34 hehe 04:43:47 ghallberg: guess what different idea I have. Hint: it says "meep meep". 04:43:56 :D 04:43:57 ghallberg: Activatable boulder beetle -style power, with buildup delay? 04:44:17 I liked the "use random aux body slot" idea with the original proposal. 04:44:24 Keskitalo: did you see my reply? 04:44:45 It is probably not worth it, but players might still "scum" for "best" slot. 04:45:03 Even worse if there actually _is_ a best slot. 04:45:15 if the duration is short enough (shorter than MP regeneration time), they'd pay more MP 04:45:30 They'll do it. 04:45:53 you don't have much maxMP at XL1 04:45:56 dpeg: this wouldn't be possible if duration is short enough 04:45:56 That seems fine to me, if they need to do it in battle. 04:46:12 like, you can't scum like this if the monster is in sight or awake 04:46:16 dpeg: I saw the hedgehog idea & discussion above, after I joined the channel 04:46:28 or you might get stuck in the "worst" form 04:46:35 I of course like the "in the open" thing about it 04:47:12 I do think that it's ok if L1 spells get superceded 04:47:16 and if duration is only 5ish turns or something, you won't be able to scum it from far away 04:47:39 Here is what I'd attempt: (1) A L1 spell without randomness. (2) A later spell a la kilobyte's flame form which allows to use a weapon. 04:48:07 The shorter the duration, the more spamming (keys and messages), though. 04:48:08 why a weapon? none of the other forms in the book allow using a weapon 04:48:31 elliptic: Hence my question if we want to enforce or loosen the Tmut-UC connection. Didn't get a reply. 04:48:57 elliptic: statue, lich. And I hate the UC thing. 04:49:03 kilobyte: they aren't in the book 04:49:17 elliptic: why not give a starting option to non-UC Tmuters? 04:49:30 by the way while we're talking about tmut, can we drop the fire school from dragon form? no one uses it except draconians really 04:50:01 dpeg: it'd be good to drop the connection, yeah. Forms could use XL or Fighting instead. 04:50:10 kilobyte: or stat? 04:50:14 dpeg: I don't have a feeling about whether we want to keep the tmut-UC connection but it really doesn't make sense to have a starting book with one form that you are supposed to use with a weapon and three forms that forbid wielding a weapon 04:50:15 or stat 04:50:25 no sense at all to me 04:50:34 fighting with human hands doesn't make you a skilled spider 04:50:50 even if the other forms don't use UC skill, they aren't using a weapon 04:51:05 elliptic: the book has S2S though? 04:51:07 if you want to change other stuff in the book, that's fine 04:51:31 elliptic: I don't see the problem. You could use flame form armed, or unarmed. 04:51:43 elliptic: a conjuration book doesn't help you with using a weapon either 04:51:46 Nobody is forcing you to a weapon, but it'd be a (novel) option. 04:51:47 S2S isn't a form and doesn't have anything to do with melee... you use it instead of melee 04:51:52 dpeg: okay, I misunderstood 04:52:05 elliptic: it is a way to train/use Tmut if you want to shun UC. 04:52:05 it sounded like you were trying to push using a weapon on Tm 04:52:13 elliptic: no, I want to broaden the scope. 04:52:23 which isn't going to happen when all the good spells in the book forbid wielding one 04:52:54 * kilobyte wishes Monks and using unclawed unarmed a general the same I wish to Halflings. 04:53:16 kilobyte: even with the piety stuff for monks? :| 04:53:56 even; 20 piety doesn't give you much anyway 04:54:13 uh, it is much more than 20 piety, no? 04:54:19 or they could get a quarterstaff or whatever fun thing monks use 04:54:20 it is ** 04:54:22 20 04:54:32 ** is much more than 20 04:55:04 kilobyte: would renaming them to zealot help? :) 04:55:06 35 instead of 15, right? 04:55:09 no, 50 04:55:16 lemme check 04:55:20 I just checked 04:55:37 ok, you're right, it adds rather than replaces 04:55:39 I find monks strange too though 04:56:03 sigh, another idea down the drain 04:56:47 getting a boost to starting piety is an interesting idea, I'm just not sure I really like it on Mo 04:57:09 same here 04:57:13 thematically, it is pretty good, imo -- I for one don't like the UC fixation of our monks :) 04:57:25 I don't hate free piety, I hate unarmed. 04:58:00 I can relate. We should perhaps streamline UC into a more standard combat type at some point. 04:58:13 Also, kilobyte distracted us from discussing Tm. 04:59:32 Flame form: little additional damage, weapon allowed, ego=fire (regardless of weapon ego?), passive fire attack. Scrolls destruction? 05:00:26 is this still supposed to be L1? 05:00:51 since I don't understand how it will not be overpowered there :P 05:01:04 elliptic: no! 05:01:32 My proposal for (2) above, a weapon-allowing later form. You guys can sort out (1), a L1 spell :) 05:01:44 the flame idea, definitely not 05:02:39 dpeg: oh, I misunderstood 05:02:52 I'd think about the starting one first though, we can add goodies later but I want not a single Tm to have Evap but not Hive. And CDO updates this night :p 05:04:09 kilobyte: simply removing the two spells wouldn't cripple Tm outright, would it? Otherwise, just give this Beastly thing and see how it turns out. 05:07:01 none of the mutations I considered blocks weapons, BTW 05:07:33 I'd just want to know if it should be fixed or random -- fixed is less coding but random is ok for all races 05:07:56 kilobyte: your choice then 05:09:39 tentacles for example don't work with octopodes (duh), felids, trolls, [ghouls]; horns with minotaurs and AFAIK kenku (only one head attack); talons with kenku and centaurs 05:10:30 good point 05:11:03 beh, random then probably. 05:11:03 the concern about recasting still stands though 05:11:25 maybe the spell could work only on a bare body part? 05:12:07 randomly choosing an uncovered one if you roll a slot you're wearing something on 05:12:14 Could Kenkus with tentacles still fly? 05:12:46 I guess the transformation doesn't touch the wings 05:12:46 they can, you can get that mutation randomly; it replaces hands 05:13:08 forbids gloves but not weapons 05:13:12 pseudopod maybe? 05:13:23 it might be race-insensitive, not sure 05:13:28 or do octopodes get those? 05:13:35 all I know about is the jiyva mutation 05:13:36 "You have a mass of small tentacles instead of fingers.", "You have a mass of tentacles instead of hands.", "You have a mass of large tentacles instead of arms." 05:16:06 another option is to make the spell choose the best available mutation for you 05:19:04 Someone please remind me before release that I go through all vaults (especially the early ones) and remove reaching abuse. 05:22:13 -!- galefury has joined ##crawl-dev 05:36:40 dpeg: another thing. There's a vault with an altar and an angel behind glass. It has been recently tagged as "overflow", effectively barring people from taking on that god until late midgame (or somewhat earlier if the player is lucky / very resourceful). 05:37:08 unlike the widely despised altar behind lava, there is no low-level trick to get you there 05:37:28 dpeg: I vault review that to the planning wiki page. 05:37:31 -that 05:37:41 for lava, you can use Spider Form and cling-jump, use blink (random or a scroll), levitate (possibly via a miscast), etc 05:39:03 for the angel vault, you have to get digging or disintegration (a high-tier wand or a mid-level spell) then survive a hard speed 15 monster 05:41:32 ok to un-overflow that vault? 05:43:43 arena angel v pandemonium lord -> 38:61 05:47:17 ajikeshi the Magician (L10 DrTm) (D:10) 05:50:44 -!- joosa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:50:48 -!- joosa has joined ##crawl-dev 05:54:23 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:54:59 elliptic: shouldn't the priest's quarterstaff be downgraded to a staff? 05:59:41 galehar_: the proposal for staves mentioned that gladiators and priests should keep quarterstaves while artificers get downgraded 06:01:21 galehar_: priests need the help :) 06:01:31 ok. But with the boost to quarterstaves, Pr start with one of the best starting weapon, which is a bit weird. 06:01:37 ok, fine :) 06:02:45 priests get Zin to keep them down :p 06:02:56 (yeah, you can abandon, but the mental scarring remains) 06:03:18 quarterstaff is a good weapon early on but you won't get an upgrade unless you get very lucky 06:12:46 back 06:13:11 With "altar behind lava", you mean the small room? I made that one, and I vouch for it. Removing the "overflow" tag from the angel one is fine by me. 06:13:56 galehar_: any idea why the Volcanoes are disadvantaged? 06:14:36 kilobyte: i did a zig with a superpowered wizmode char this morning, and had dwarf floors on 25 and 27 06:14:43 i could firestorm them without any trouble, with makhleb 06:15:25 refrigeration was also good enough, but misses the zombies 06:15:43 so im not convinced the damage reflection actually works to discourage firestorming the level 06:16:38 its actually much more annoying when killing them slowly 06:17:13 not sure if it still works as well with a normal char, this one had all maxed skills and was dressed in fixedarts 06:17:42 kilobyte: is the Tm mattet settled? 06:17:48 I'd come up with Fi next. 06:18:21 galefury: damage reflection discourages ice storming much less even 06:18:45 with fire storm, the dwarves see the vortices and start damage mirroring before you see them 06:19:43 with ice storm, they don't, and they all die quickly at edge of LOS 06:19:43 yeah, i thought of that too 06:19:43 but it was no trouble 06:19:43 though even with tornado (have to get close), damage mirror is not a big deal 06:19:46 moin 06:19:50 Hi! 06:19:58 Zaba: there is an issue with portal vault generation. 06:20:08 Icecave comes up much more often than Volcano. 06:20:29 dpeg: I think they mean lemuel_hellish_altar? 06:20:33 For the lava vault. 06:21:17 um 06:23:12 dpeg, well, volcano entries are ORIENT: float, whereas icecave entries are minivaults 06:25:28 not sure how large the impact of that is on practice, though, but that's one obvious difference at a quick glance 06:25:33 Zaba: you're good! Is there any reason for the float? 06:26:04 We noticed yesterday that volcanoes are never generated in the lair... that would be natural then. 06:26:22 not really, no 06:26:32 they _should_ still be placed as secondary vaults in non-D... 06:27:06 Zaba: don't come up, galehar_ repaired --mapstat for testing 06:27:21 oh. 06:27:27 109 e.tags("layout_caves") 06:27:36 or at least, very rarely -- what was the !lg command to count >=0.9 volcanoes? 06:28:17 it seems to be restricted to 'caves' levels 06:28:36 Zaba: that is why it is found almost exclusively in Orc? 06:29:05 that can be explained by that tag, yes 06:29:21 What to do? 06:31:00 well.. 06:31:26 if just making them appear more often is desired, a good start would be removing that tag (then they'll generate even on levels where they might look out of place...) 06:32:42 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:33:03 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Client Quit] 06:34:11 Zaba: their depth is only Orc and Lair, I think -- do you think they'd look out of place there? 06:34:51 probably not 06:35:28 !lm * br.enter=volcano s=br / v>=0.9 06:35:28 431/2248 milestones for * (br.enter=volcano): 343/1701x Orc [20.16%], 42/210x Hive [20.00%], 46/337x Lair [13.65%] 06:35:44 Er, that's not what I meant but you get the idea. 06:36:58 dpeg, since lair levels are ruinated, it'd probably look okay in non-caves layouts, too 06:36:58 20% of all games have a volcano in Orc? I doubt that. 06:37:00 -!- petete has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:37:00 No, ignore the percentages. 06:37:00 Zaba: would you remove the tag and perhaps also the float? 06:37:00 I think the easy ice caves generate way too often, and when they do, they reduce chances of a hard ice cave generating. Need to tweak WEIGHT according to depth, that's on my todo. 06:37:00 20% of branch entrances in orc were volcanos. 06:37:11 ah 06:37:12 Managing teleportitis with Control Teleport spell is painful. :( 06:37:46 I suggested that teleportitis should announce the teleport, but got shot down :O 06:38:36 hmm 06:38:58 dpeg, yeah, I'll look into it.. 06:39:12 thank you 06:44:16 (And not that it matters, but the percentages were actually entrances in >=0.9 out of the total.) 06:46:09 Fighter options: (1) enchantment (+1 or +2, don't know) to shield/weapon/mail. (2) Given them boost and helmet. (3) Better skill (I would really like to stop seeing "ditch your shield" hints.) What's out: consumables like one !might -- galehar vetoed that one. Robustness mutation (sounds better than it is, especially early on.) Crawl Light gives the current weapon and the next one (e.g. hand axe and waraxe) but item generation was improved meanwhile. 06:46:23 s/boost/boots/ 06:49:17 I think enchantments to gear is best. 06:49:34 +1 (or +2?) to enchanting starting gear. Not sure about additional pieces of armour. It's surely thematic. 06:49:38 -!- galehar_ has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Discuter simplement. Partout.] 06:53:57 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2467&p=31721#p31721 has a list of starting gear enchantments 06:54:09 Reading this, +2 seems fine. elliptic? 06:56:08 03dolorous * r6f49daeb37d3 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Add formatting fixes. 06:57:15 HuFi has 5/5/17, HuGl has 4/10/8, HuDK etc have 3/10/0 06:57:22 let's not go overboard with buffing Fi for no reason 06:57:33 they also get a better weapon 06:58:33 +1 to shield/mail sounds reasonable to me, maybe +1 to weapon also... but not more 06:58:45 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:00:45 elliptic: is there concern that MDFi becomes too strong? 07:01:18 Will a +1 shield make (some) players not drop the thing at once? 07:01:47 well, players who would drop it at once shouldn't be playing Fi in the first place 07:01:59 I see no reason to worry about them :) 07:02:09 okay :) Put another way: the shield is useful from the start? 07:02:40 even as things stand, I'd use the shield unless I picked the trident (the 1.5-handed penalty is harsh at start) 07:03:18 ok 07:04:01 I'm not particularly worried about MDFi compared with MDBe or MDHu, but I'm also not sure that the buff is really necessary 07:04:14 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 07:04:27 though one buff that would be nice is to improve their initial weapon selection types for maces and axes 07:04:43 morning 07:05:35 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 07:06:15 this probably involves making various weapon tweaks though... we've discussed that before 07:06:18 bmh: hi 07:06:23 DrPraetor: around? 07:06:45 dpeg: Briefly, yeah. 'sup? 07:06:45 !won * fi cv=~0.10 07:06:46 * (fi cv=~0.10) has won 8 times in 1534 games (0.52%): 4xMDFi 2xMuFi 1xHOFi 1xOpFi 07:06:50 !won * gl cv=~0.10 07:06:50 * (gl cv=~0.10) has won 6 times in 1123 games (0.53%): 2xMiGl 1xHEGl 1xMDGl 1xOpGl 1xTrGl 07:07:05 !won * dk cv=~0.10 07:07:05 * (dk cv=~0.10) has won 5 times in 287 games (1.74%): 1xCeDK 1xMfDK 1xMiDK 1xMuDK 1xOgDK 07:07:30 !won * ak cv=~0.10 07:07:31 * (ak cv=~0.10) has not won in 408 games. 07:07:49 the popularity stats don't really convince me that anything is wrong with Fi 07:11:21 Is there an easy way to enumerate monster character/color combinations? 07:12:52 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:15:19 kilobyte's initial proposal for Tm sounds nice to me, with the temporary mutations 07:15:45 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 07:20:39 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:24:23 You bug the helpless orc for 10! 07:24:42 who let evilmike design all of these cruel abyss rune vaults? 07:24:46 ...I like 'em! 07:24:59 kilobyte: That's a borderline obscene bug. 07:26:01 I've never bugged anyone for so much damage 07:27:18 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 07:28:18 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:31:12 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 07:32:07 03zaba * rf36c359a3b9c 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/volcano.des: Don't restrict volcano entries to cave levels. 07:34:50 ok, the code for your new wiggly parts is in, it's time to determine balance 07:35:12 kilobyte: wiggly parts? 07:35:46 stuff growing out of your body and hanging around 07:36:07 03kilobyte * rece7747c2c63 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/angel_mace.png: Remove a duplicated tile. 07:36:17 03kilobyte * rf74efd83fce5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (20 files in 2 dirs): Remove Evap and Fulsome from Tm starting book, add a new spell: Beastly Appendage. 07:37:02 -!- syraine has joined ##crawl-dev 07:37:06 Kilobyteeee 07:37:08 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 07:37:16 What is Beastly Appendage 07:37:18 Tell meee 07:37:33 Does it summon a beast with a HUGE appendage that RENDS peole 07:37:36 people* o= 07:37:38 because I want that 07:40:39 I don't. I'm opposed to any feature that won't kill players. 07:41:01 though I'm thinking of making a xom altar that follows the player around and wimpers. 07:41:27 !lg * mutm won 07:41:27 1. 78291 the Evocator (L27 MuTm), worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2009-11-10, with 1274456 points after 146049 turns and 5:38:10. 07:41:42 MuTm is probably pointless now 07:42:46 kilobyte: transmutations now grant temporary mutations? Does that make ghouls and vampires worthless too? 07:43:23 ghouls never could transform 07:43:37 Sorry for not commenting earlier, but I think evap fits St even less than Tm given all the noise. Maybe it's time to think about alchemy. 07:43:39 vampires can only if full or more 07:44:00 St has no other useful spell 07:44:09 ??stalker 07:44:09 stalker[1/2]: An assassin who got tired of misplacing his blowgun, so decided to replace it with transmutations. Starts with a dagger, a cloak and a {book of Stalking}. 07:44:17 ??book of stalking 07:44:17 book of stalking[1/2]: Spells: fulsome distillation, evaporate, passwall, dig, petrify. 07:44:26 Passwall is really situational, Petrify does about nothing 07:44:32 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:44:33 evaporate is noisy 07:44:34 I'm in favor of scrapping stalker 07:44:35 Has mephitic cloud been nerfed yet? 07:44:45 yeah 07:45:26 Mephitic Cloud, on a serious note, made Stalkers a powerful class. 07:45:38 stalkers ever had meph cloud? 07:45:39 it made anyone powerful 07:45:44 yes, through Evaporate 07:45:49 which made it more powerful 07:45:58 2 MP cloud of confusion 07:46:02 -!- greensna1k is now known as greensnark 07:46:03 meph cloud is its own spell, be specific and clear :p 07:46:10 sorry : 07:46:12 :P* 07:46:41 2MP cloud of poison. 2MP cloud of miasma (50% chance from ogres, 100% from mosquitoes). 07:46:46 I've never liked evap or meph. They're both 'must haves' 07:46:49 due: stalkers had meph cloud before they got completely overhauled in 0.8 07:46:49 Mm, I played OpSt and it used the Confusion effect a lot - 07:47:06 But it did highlight the disadvantage with using Evaporate constantly 07:47:12 you run out of potions :) 07:47:23 no you don't 07:47:30 For starters, I would like to see them unreliably generate a 3x3 cloud 07:47:38 bmh: done 07:47:38 bmh: already done 07:47:44 <3 07:47:57 okay, well, I run out of potions, mainly because getting it to proc takes multiple casts 07:47:59 at 10 power you get 5.8 clouds on average, for instance 07:48:01 I should go on vacation more often 07:48:03 thanks to them being unreliable 07:48:05 only the center cloud guaranteed 07:48:05 kilobyte: Fulsome can be nerfed. Just make it give a potion only 1/x time. 07:48:05 o= 07:48:12 elliptic: perfect! 07:48:31 fulsome is easily nerfed! 07:48:33 delete it ;) 07:48:39 Evap can be nerfed further. Make cloud effect depend on power so a poison cloud from evap is much less damaging than one from poisonous cloud 07:48:50 due: +1 07:49:04 fulsome has always felt really grindy and annoying to me 07:49:05 evap + ignite poison is always hilarious. 07:49:20 fulsome distillation is nice 07:49:25 A Stalker of Nemelex is not 07:49:27 galehar: It's already tinier by a fair bit. 07:49:38 fulsome distillation is "wander around trying to remember to mute every corpse" 07:49:44 And you can't fill corridors with it. 07:50:01 evaporate as a targetted effect spell that causes part of a monster ot evaporate and potentially form a cloud would be fun! but silly. 07:50:01 it shouldn't be nerfed, really, because it's not an instant kill 07:50:04 due: isn't that the same as most blood god sacrifices? or butchering corpses for food? 07:50:13 ais523: yes. 07:50:23 throw flame with good power can kill most of the things that thingy cannot 07:50:26 corpses are a resource, you're going to fulsome them or chop them or sacrifice them or whatever with pretty much any character 07:50:33 um, that evaporate clouds can 07:50:35 unless it's flame 07:50:36 jle: what is tinier? Damage from evaporated poisonous cloud vs normal ones? You sure? 07:50:40 arguably, a character with no use for corpses (SpHe, for instance) is just wasting resources 07:50:45 galehar: I mean, the size of the cloud. 07:51:03 if you're using evaporate exclusively like a conjurer 07:51:08 ais523: well, it's sub-optimal behaviour /not/ to transmute every corpse 07:51:09 you run out of resources very fast 07:51:22 due: that's the thing, most races have to eat 07:51:27 or sacrifice for a god 07:51:30 The evap cloud is smaller, and doesn't expand into corridors (which is probably one of the better ways of using poison cloud). 07:51:34 let's say we're looking at early game 07:51:40 if we scrap St, then we don't need to keep fulsome. Without it, maybe evap will be more balanced 07:51:46 due: there's normally tension on what you do to any individual corpse 07:52:04 galehar: without fulsome, why would you ever take evap over mephitic? 07:52:06 getting good piety with a god is certainly important, more so than later 07:52:13 you could make evaporate level 1 -shrug- 07:52:16 syraine: why? 07:52:18 oh 07:52:22 what? oh god no. 07:52:23 because people die a lot early 07:52:29 yes, that always happens. 07:52:33 and if you don't maximize every resource 07:52:36 then you die more 07:52:40 bmh: poison and miasma? 07:52:48 saccing corpses takes the same amount of time as distilling 07:52:51 evap as level 2 without fulsome would be nice. 07:53:05 evap is strong, but not overpowered, I feel 07:53:08 merely -powered- 07:53:10 hah 07:53:11 i also disagree that the early game should be dedicated to getting piety. 07:53:16 Is there a table handy somewhere of potion generation rates? 07:53:17 well, or eating 07:53:28 but you don't need to eat every corpse 07:53:43 it's just that the unreliability of evaporate clouds often means multiple attacks on high HD monsters 07:53:46 even orc warriors 07:54:10 my most recent experience is with opst 07:54:15 pfff, only if you are unlucky 07:54:17 gah my eyes hurt 07:54:58 and theres not a lot of stuff that actually needs confusing, i was a little low on potions early on with my last Tm, but this quickly changed 07:55:04 jle: https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs/master/crawl-ref/source/makeitem.cc#line2747 07:55:09 galehar: Cheers. 07:55:26 there aren't enough bad potions in the game to make evap any good without fulsome. 07:55:29 galehar: apart from adding more vaults and eliminating whining players, is there any more work to be done on the abyss? 07:55:30 galefury: that's a transmuter 07:55:39 *however*, you could scrap both spells, and just have a 'throw potion' option 07:55:41 anyway, my point with fulsome distillation is that it's sub-optimal behaviour not to convert non-clean corpses; you can divide the rest between food and piety need.s 07:55:56 does evap + rage generate 'zerky clouds? 07:56:01 stalkers don't really profit from learning the tacked-on Earth Magic school spells apart from passwall 07:56:05 yes, it does 07:56:09 steam and flame iirc 07:56:18 bmh: no, no cloud causes berserk 07:56:20 well chaos might. 07:56:30 <|amethyst> I got good use out of Petrify 07:56:31 oh, I thought berserk flavor 07:56:31 bmh: maybe fine tuning the abyss morphing speed 07:56:32 I like the idea of berserking clouds, anyway 07:56:39 i want status clouds, mm 07:56:46 an Alchemist class 07:56:55 The main thing that bugs me about evaporate is that aside from the obvious effects (poison, confusion) it's a little spoilery. 07:57:17 jle: how so? Evaporate + Bad Potion = Hurt monster 07:57:20 we should replace it with houmnculus! :D 07:57:21 jle: How so? There aren't many effects 07:57:25 :S 07:57:28 due: please do that 07:57:31 ??homunculus 07:57:31 I don't have a page labeled homunculus in my learndb. 07:57:36 convert (resource) into a summon 07:57:39 it's the sort of spoilery that's easy to learn by experiment without killing off the character, which is the best sort of spoilery 07:57:40 summonings/transmutation 07:57:40 I still have charts up somewheere 07:57:46 bmh: maybe also adjust the ratio between floor/wall/water/lava. Or just make it more easily configurable since I have absolutely no idea how to do it. 07:57:46 syraine: ... yes, I know 07:57:54 syraine: I designed the spell. I just never got around to implementing it. 07:57:59 oh 07:58:00 <|amethyst> if fulsome is eliminated, maybe reduce the chance for steam and fog from the normal potions 07:58:02 nonono 07:58:04 that was an 'idea' 07:58:06 :3 07:58:07 well, I never /finished/ implementing it. 07:58:08 galehar: yeah that... I just cribbed the old code 07:58:08 but cool 07:58:11 great minds like a think 07:58:15 bmh: Maybe it's not a big deal, but I have no idea if strong poison is better than poison, or what paralysis does, say. 07:58:26 I implemented the monster enums and fizzing potions. 07:58:58 with regards to the random clouds generated by evap, can we bias the tile choice away from the player in an ellipse? 07:59:05 * bmh takes his random selections very seriously 07:59:26 i'd like that 07:59:31 make it like a spray 08:00:04 bmh: I'm willing to admit I should experiment more though - I haven't used much but the potions you get from distilling corpses. 08:00:04 <|amethyst> that's quite a power-up 08:00:08 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 08:00:17 well, then we can remove thing 08:00:20 fulsome distillation 08:00:36 and make it yet another of the conditional spells relegated to the back of the 'spell drawer' 08:04:35 I'm going to take a stab at making the walls of slime decay into neutral 'worker slimes' 08:04:58 that repair the wall? or that just sit there, getting in the way? 08:06:11 ais523: that wander around and then turn back into walls elsewhere 08:06:23 leading to a potentially disconnected level? 08:06:24 i wouldn't mind scrapping stalker either, tmut stabbing is fun but EE is just as good at it 08:06:47 i wrote up two stalker books a while ago, both tmut, one ice/earth the other ice/air 08:07:44 stuff like reaching into something's lungs and pulling out the air 08:07:55 ais523: I could specifically test to see if it disconnects the map before making a wall 08:08:30 Looks like the combined spawn rate of all bad potions is a little closer to heal wounds than healing. 08:10:05 i think the air one was that, sky beast form, new-fulsome, new-evap, something else i forget 08:10:45 whereas the earth one was passwall and maybe an ice/earth mud spell or an ice spell to create a temporary ice block 'wall' 08:11:55 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:12:53 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 08:13:01 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:13:12 I think the playing style of creating and throwing potions has a lot of appeal. I wouldn't delete it because it is too strong, I'd rather nerf it. 08:15:32 elliptic: it is fine by me not to improve Fi any. But then you get the task of telling this to players. (I can give the link.) They're whining day in and day out. 08:15:58 ah, galehar already did -- thanks! 08:16:13 i never had much trouble with Fi, but I only played MDFi, so... 08:16:42 dpeg: Can you give the link? I'm curious about the nature of the whines. 08:16:56 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2467 08:17:00 this one i think 08:17:02 but its long 08:17:37 and only one thread, there are others =) 08:17:42 To me, so far, only ogfi has seemed a bit underpowered compared to oggl because it can't get heavy armour like fighters usually do. 08:18:30 Fi also has more HP than anyone else, I think. That never gets mentioned. 08:18:33 minmay is often saying on the forum that Fi is the weakest background 08:18:46 Oh, that's a point. 08:18:52 um 08:18:57 like usual, he doesn't give any reason, he just state it like that 08:19:03 Fighters aren't that great 08:19:20 Just to provide a Devil's Advocate perspective 08:19:35 Because of the way that their skill points are put in at the start, in combination with their starting armour 08:19:43 It's frustrating not being able to kill things with many races 08:20:06 They come into their own later, with Trog, Okawaru or Makhleb 08:20:45 galehar: I wonder if I should suppress minmay. He sounds like an expert but I miss the really good ideas (I wouldn't ever suppress B0rsuk for example, even when he accused me personally.) 08:20:48 At the start they have poor Armour Skill, poor Shields skill and worse offensive capability than like, every other class apart from slow starters 08:20:49 !lg * s=class 08:20:49 1289848 games for *: 114459x Fighter, 109953x Wanderer, 97517x Wizard, 84623x Berserker, 67340x Enchanter, 62790x Chaos Knight, 61976x Transmuter, 61369x Necromancer, 58762x Crusader, 41760x Monk, 40695x Fire Elementalist, 38413x Conjurer, 36604x Assassin, 36470x Stalker, 33610x Ice Elementalist, 31030x Air Elementalist, 27622x Priest, 27607x Gladiator, 27478x Earth Elementalist, 24344x Artificer,... 08:20:49 well, one has to be the weakest 08:20:52 !lg * win s=class 08:20:52 5533 games for * (win): 561x Berserker, 429x Fighter, 308x Enchanter, 285x Wizard, 280x Necromancer, 255x Crusader, 247x Fire Elementalist, 229x Transmuter, 228x Ice Elementalist, 199x Chaos Knight, 181x Conjurer, 179x Earth Elementalist, 175x Gladiator, 164x Air Elementalist, 163x Monk, 160x Venom Mage, 148x Assassin, 137x Priest, 136x Paladin, 127x Hunter, 121x Stalker, 110x Healer, 109x Summone... 08:20:55 nuff said 08:20:59 maybe push fighter down on the list of backgrounds? 08:21:01 syraine: SH 17 is poor? 08:21:05 so its not right at the top? 08:21:24 galehar: someone has to be at the top 08:21:33 galehar <--> galefury, grr 08:21:43 dpeg: I didn't say anything about the numbers. But the class records don't take into account the fact that there are tons of strong melee backgrounds that happen to tie well into Fighter 08:21:51 -!- galefury is now known as alefury 08:21:52 !lg * Class=Fighter S=Race 08:21:52 Unknown selector: s 08:21:54 happy? 08:21:58 !lg * Class=Fighter s=Race 08:21:58 114459 games for * (Class=Fighter): 45498x Mountain Dwarf, 13937x Demonspawn, 12065x Hill Orc, 8352x Minotaur, 7243x Human, 4053x Ghoul, 3758x Troll, 3708x Mummy, 2788x High Elf, 1500x Ogre, 1417x Demigod, 1380x Kenku, 1373x Merfolk, 839x Draconian, 830x Centaur, 706x Naga, 657x Hill Dwarf, 589x Kobold, 550x Felid, 528x Spriggan, 496x Deep Elf, 428x Deep Dwarf, 409x Vampire, 319x Halfling, 236x Gn... 08:22:06 alefury: also sounds much better! 08:22:12 i know, right? 08:22:15 so iirc 08:22:26 45,000 Fighters were Mountain Dwarves 08:22:33 !lg * win class=fighter s=race 08:22:33 429 games for * (win class=fighter): 209x Mountain Dwarf, 42x Demonspawn, 32x Minotaur, 21x Hill Orc, 19x Ghoul, 12x Centaur, 11x Troll, 10x Human, 8x High Elf, 8x Mummy, 7x Naga, 7x Ogre, 6x Hill Dwarf, 5x Demigod, 5x Kenku, 4x Deep Dwarf, 3x Vampire, 3x Halfling, 2x Spriggan, 2x Merfolk, 2x Sludge Elf, 2x Kobold, 2x Deep Elf, 1x Octopode, 1x Felid, 1x Yellow Draconian, 1x Gnome, 1x Pale Draconia... 08:22:34 and 13,000 were Demonspawn 08:22:48 Spot the gnome! 08:22:55 I see it!!! 08:23:02 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:23:30 !lg * s=race 08:23:35 1289850 games for *: 184531x Deep Elf, 141497x Demonspawn, 85765x Mountain Dwarf, 83520x Spriggan, 75786x High Elf, 74961x Mummy, 58414x Merfolk, 50777x Kobold, 47730x Sludge Elf, 45997x Human, 44207x Minotaur, 43181x Hill Orc, 41123x Kenku, 38968x Vampire, 35732x Troll, 34052x Draconian, 32023x Naga, 25586x Demigod, 25581x Ogre, 21986x Ghoul, 20983x Deep Dwarf, 17735x Halfling, 13231x Felid, 1176... 08:23:39 so yeah 08:23:49 obviously there are not many Deep Elf Fighters 08:24:31 MD aptitudes thoroughly trounce Mi and HO 08:24:40 Elliptic disagrees 08:24:47 The recent discussion was um 08:24:48 kilobyte: yes 08:24:50 Minotaur differentiation 08:24:59 I wouldn't mind nerfing MD but that's another issue. 08:25:00 -!- ncampion has joined ##crawl-dev 08:25:09 The general flow from his end I think was that Minotaurs were strong, and Mountain Dwarves were stronger 08:25:11 dpeg: I'd like to delete Mi 08:25:17 I am against it. 08:25:27 I'd rather remove MD, if pressed. 08:25:28 you might argue about Dodging, but everything else is "why did you pick this weapon instead of that?" 08:25:29 then do you have a plan for differentiating it from MD? 08:25:33 And also that Minotaurs were undifferentiated 08:25:35 yeah 08:25:42 even higher HP, and magic 08:25:52 including +5 apt in Fire and Earth 08:26:01 Why get Mi all the blame when we can remove MD instead? Mi are mythologically grounded with labyrinths, at least. 08:26:20 removing MD is fine with me alternatively... but then what will all the MDFi players do?? 08:26:25 MD are nothing but a stupid Tolkien trope. 08:26:33 elliptic: DF? 08:26:42 oh that reminds me actually, i think minotaur lab aptitude got accidentally removed with the new maprot system 08:26:43 We have to look at a numbers niche, as well as a flavor niche; what good heavy armour fighters are there? That's an actual question. 08:26:45 :3 08:26:50 MD is also quite possibly the race mentioned most in articles about crawl 08:26:51 !APT Armour 08:26:52 I don't think we really have room for all of MD/Mi/HO, yeah 08:26:52 Armour: Ce: -3, DD: 1, DE: -2, DG: -1, Dr: -4*, Dr[black]: -4*, Dr[green]: -4*, Dr[grey]: -4*, Dr[mottled]: -4*, Dr[pale]: -4*, Dr[purple]: -4*, Dr[red]: -4*, Dr[white]: -4*, Dr[yellow]: -4*, DS: -1, Fe: 0, Gh: -1, Ha: -2, HE: -1, HO: 1, Hu: 0, Ke: 1, Ko: -2, LO: , MD: 3!, Mf: -3, Mi: 1, Mu: -2, Na: -2, Og: -2, OP: , SE: -2, Sp: -3, Tr: -2, Vp: -2 08:26:55 MarvinPA: can you take a look and possibly reinstate? 08:27:18 for easy reading: http://sprunge.us/igAZ 08:27:19 i'm not sure how the new maprot works, might have to ask galehar 08:27:22 Ahhh, the lovely scent of species removal fills the air. 08:27:27 c2157fdbde39d70d7 is the commit, though 08:27:37 okay 08:27:47 so Mountain Dwarves are the only race in Crawl with a +3 aptitude 08:27:53 the next highest is, errr, one 08:27:57 http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/c2157fdbde39d70d75be46e3df711f5af3a85f19 08:27:58 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:28:05 We all agree that HO are untouchable? 08:28:27 Hill Orcs are untouchable because of Beogh? 08:28:28 dpeg: I'd mainly rather remove Mi than MD because Mi is much more one-dimensional 08:28:36 this could be changed of course 08:28:47 elliptic: We can make Mi multidimensional by giving it Earth, for example :) 08:28:52 ugh 08:28:56 another Earth Elementalist 08:28:59 but currently they are just equally good at all melee skills and equally awful at all magic skills 08:29:05 yeah, MD can at least sort of cast in heavy armour, a bit 08:29:14 also at ranged, mm 08:29:25 note how much better MD are in magic than Mi. Everything better (Nec and Spc equal), even MP. 08:29:37 yeah, that's the main thing: a Mountain Dwarf is probably the only race that can get a major spell school castable in heavy armour early 08:29:37 +1 Inv, +4 Evo too. 08:29:41 without sacrificing versatility 08:29:45 kilobyte: yeah... not that they make use of the magic skills much, but still 08:29:49 Maybe take away MD ranged apts, so they have to go magic or use wands? 08:29:54 better XL aptitude (130 vs 140) 08:29:54 might be cool 08:30:08 you could just reduce their weapon aptitudes 08:30:13 make them a defensive race 08:30:14 hey, I am fine if we scrap Mi and rename MD -> Mi 08:30:15 -shrug...- 08:30:20 oh, that's cool 08:30:21 I just want minotaurs to stay in the game 08:30:21 :3 08:30:28 Minotaurs with great apts 08:30:41 dpeg: yeah, especially with a nerf in some places 08:30:56 Minotaurs are great with mazes. How does a passive mapping bonus sound? 08:30:58 kilobyte: sure 08:31:05 jle: DD gimmick 08:31:06 oh, but then we'd have one type of dwarf but three types of elves, does that mean we'd have to remove high elves too? :P 08:31:08 MarvinPA: the special case for Mi in Labs and Lugonites in the Abyss is still there. It might be less noticeable with the new algorithm, but numbers can be tweaked. The parameter to forget_map wasn't used so I removed it for better clarity. The special casing is done inside the function. 08:31:08 yeah 08:31:14 could be moved around, of course 08:31:17 like, their huge Evo, Earth and Fire, on a stupid race 08:31:18 galehar: aha okay, thanks 08:31:21 Why are there so many damn elves 08:31:40 syraine: we used to have five, my friend 08:31:44 I know! 08:31:45 syraine: because vanillas and greys were removed 08:31:48 :) 08:31:49 Yes, hahaha 08:31:50 kilobyte: why nerf the only cool thing about MD? 08:32:07 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 08:32:16 kilobyte: I don't see any problem with a generally stupid race having good earth and fire 08:32:23 kilobyte: that's what I mean by numbers niches 08:32:25 no, that's cool 08:32:25 their evo should definitely be toned down a bit though 08:32:29 there aren't many heavy armour casters are there? 08:32:33 but yeah 08:32:35 alefury: DDs have that already 08:32:36 evocations, why 08:32:37 * dpeg fondly recalls winning a HDFE once 08:32:40 why are dwarves good with rods 08:32:47 there are a decent number of dragon armour casters 08:32:54 Sorry, I mean um 08:32:56 Early gameish 08:33:03 hmm... re:worker slimes making slime pits disconnected. I think I may be able to avoid it with entirely local constraints 08:33:05 Dragon Armour is obviously a different case 08:33:36 kilobyte: yeah, that's a point... but I'd still like magic apts to be unbalanced in some way 08:33:40 preferably melee apts too 08:33:45 balanced apts are for humans :P 08:33:50 bmh: of course, just need to check for adjacent squares to stay connected 08:33:55 dpeg: On that note, is 'shared gimmicks' something crawl generally tries to avoid? 08:33:56 elliptic: yeah 08:33:58 if I refuse to build a wall when it would form a bridge between two walls on opposite sides of it, I believe that will do the trick 08:34:00 you could give Minotaurs... 08:34:06 like, some crazy unarmed aptitude. 08:34:17 and remove their capacity to use weapons well - 08:34:25 so make them an unarmed/ranged class 08:34:30 that levels slowly 08:34:31 <|amethyst> bmh: you have to check adjacent sides too: 08:34:34 <|amethyst> #a 08:34:36 <|amethyst> b# 08:34:36 give them hooves and horns 3... 08:34:40 dpeg: hmm... choosing MD apts over Mi seems bad, they're too close to HO (just better) 08:34:50 amethyst: point 08:34:56 dpeg: I'd remove MD, improve Mi and HO but in separate ways 08:34:57 <|amethyst> bmh: if you put a wall at b, you might disconnect a 08:35:10 one thing I noticed 08:35:15 certain skills for whatever reason 08:35:16 <|amethyst> bmh: hm 08:35:18 kilobyte: I was exaggerating. We can merge MD and Mi or whatever, my main concern is keeping the Minotaur species alive. 08:35:21 don't have any races with high aptitudes 08:35:22 kilobyte: sounds reasonable 08:35:24 Why are burny squares in slime statically computed? 08:35:31 Is it actually onerous to calculate it on the fly? 08:35:33 jle: cannot say, but overlaps are in general not so hot 08:37:06 <|amethyst> bmh: if you did that (only add slimes when one orthogonal side is taken) I think you'd end up with weird pointy structures, quite unlike the existing nature of Slime 08:37:50 So, why are there no races in the game with an Unarmed Combat aptitude higher than 1? 08:38:01 Why are there no races in the game with a Staves aptitude higher than 2? 08:38:26 syraine: because UC should join forces with halflings and go! 08:38:45 kilobyte, you demons removed banana bashing 08:38:49 don't remove unarmed combat 08:38:51 :( 08:38:52 |amethyst: half a minute, I'm trying to enumerate all of the locally allowable cases 08:39:01 bmh: the current connectivity check in slimes takes into account slimy walls. You can go from one stair to another without burning yourself. Looks like you're not preserving that. 08:39:16 what is the goal with Slime changes? 08:39:24 syraine: yeah, I take pride in having removed that 08:39:28 dpeg: to make slime more interesting 08:39:39 kilobyte: it would be a possibility (not for 0.10, I guess) to remove UC skill and make it strictly stat based. 08:39:39 kilobyte: but.. 08:39:44 bashing people to death with an apple 08:39:46 :'(( 08:39:48 bmh: isn't Slime good now? 08:39:56 dpeg: to indulge my interest in playing with terrain? 08:40:02 bmh: ah! :) 08:40:08 bmh: :p 08:40:31 lol 08:40:33 wait 08:40:39 kilobyte: I think everything could be governed by Dex and Str. 08:40:39 are halflings the least played race 08:40:43 their description is awful by the way 08:40:53 I genuinely think it says that they are retarded children 08:40:56 syraine: there is the description task force. Join them! 08:41:04 dpeg: I am sort of there vaguely 08:41:07 bmh: if you want your code in the game, you might want to discuss the change before coding it. But maybe you just want to code. 08:41:13 I still have that godspeak thing to finish 08:41:28 galehar: forgiveness > permission :) 08:41:33 !lg * race=halfling s=name 08:41:33 17735 games for * (race=halfling): 413x crawlie, 307x Ishish, 303x KiloByte, 253x mouse, 208x phyphor, 189x chilliwack, 183x Tenaya, 182x giovform, 173x Archibald, 170x aori, 161x Sabaki, 152x Arafel, 134x Elynae, 126x berise, 124x HOLGS, 123x Isvaffel, 122x daken, 120x LexAckson, 113x Ping, 113x larasium, 110x Mogwok, 109x TGW, 109x sorear, 107x eben, 107x HaraKiri, 106x Pacra, 105x heteroy, 103x... 08:41:33 <|amethyst> Just removing "It definitely deserves an axe to the head." is a start 08:41:37 lol 08:41:38 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 08:41:44 17,000 for the entirely of crawl 08:41:48 entirety* 08:41:54 !lg * race=demonspawn s=name 08:41:55 141497 games for * (race=demonspawn): 7921x Xiberia, 4060x Fieros, 3702x DashNine, 2741x Eronarn, 1854x TGW, 1846x Nikinyo, 1698x oxeimon, 1599x ion, 1492x Cryptic, 1429x Covenant, 1171x Disco, 1156x chukamok, 1082x heteroy, 1038x Johan, 1016x Gamerha, 993x Surr, 959x Moose, 918x 78291, 842x Nosferax, 806x Monkaria, 791x Ivo, 732x meneril, 716x tehpwn, 695x paplaukes, 689x BirdoPrey, 673x syllogis... 08:42:01 best comparitor 08:42:14 Hey, kilobyte personally killed 303 of the little buggers :P 08:42:14 I don't recall ever playing a halfling for any length of time. 08:42:17 Kilobyte, I see you have some heavy-duty experience 08:42:24 <|amethyst> "It's physically and mentally similar to a ten-year old child. And everyone knows what we do with ten-year-old children and axes." 08:42:25 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:42:30 Does it actually say that halflings are retarded children 08:42:32 ... 08:42:34 mm 08:42:36 yes 08:42:38 it does - - 08:42:58 only for the single halfling in a vault, sadly 08:43:08 not the player race 08:43:15 galehar: are we still short on abyssy vaults? And if so, do you want rune vaults or exit vaults? 08:43:22 syraine: I thought you were joking. What's the quote? 08:43:27 very politically correct, and enticing; because when you are choosing between a serpentine, poison-spitting humanoid, a hero with the ancestry of demons 08:43:45 and a 'small creature that is physically and mentally similar to a ten year old' 08:43:53 you will invariably choose the ten year old human 08:43:54 <|amethyst> jle: This is a degenerate human, both mentally and physically similar to a child of perhaps ten, perhaps 08:43:56 bmh: we need exit vaults with strong defense. We already have many rune vaults thanks to evilmike 08:44:00 <|amethyst> twelve years of age, yet looking older. It looks mischievous, as if prone to no good. 08:44:06 <|amethyst> It definitely deserves an axe to the head. 08:44:23 galehar: ok, I'll try to bake some up 08:44:34 bmh: thanks :) 08:44:35 Win our special selected Grand Prize if you can figure out who wrote that! 08:45:03 wow. just... wow 08:45:10 Two more weeks of vacation until it's back to the salt mines :) 08:45:25 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:45:29 best descriptor 08:45:31 galefury 08:45:34 did you write that. 08:45:36 be honest 08:45:45 im pretty sure it was kilobyte 08:45:52 nobody else hates halflings that much 08:45:58 hahahahah. 08:46:06 all of the races should have particularly cruel definitions 08:46:13 syraine: special tip: give the Enter key a break 08:46:32 <|amethyst> git says kilobyte committed it 08:46:58 Dpeg: irritating habit of mine )= it grates at me when there is no pause where 'clearly' a pause would be if you were saying the sentence. 08:47:32 Also it makes my inane comments cover huge amounts of virtual real estate, so everyone 'has' to listen. 08:47:34 <|amethyst> syraine: use '/' instead of newline, make it look like you're a poet 08:47:35 ...=D 08:47:37 )= 08:47:44 |amethyst: will do 08:47:46 -!- bmh_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:47:53 |amethyst: moved there from another place, it originally was set in lua. 08:47:54 -!- bmh has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:47:58 -!- bmh_ is now known as bmh 08:48:03 kilobyte: you are a good soul 08:48:06 that made my day 08:48:13 galehar: evilmike's smiterflies abyss exit is hilarious. Sort of xom'y 08:48:21 incidentally, I will come clean and say I wrote the mesmeric cantrip for 'butterfly' 08:48:31 syraine: ! 08:48:36 don't all kill me at once 08:48:40 i have rsmite 08:48:43 bmh: ... smiterflies? 08:48:53 Oh, that was you. That's quite cool. 08:48:56 @??butterfly spells:smite 08:48:57 Unknown spell name: 'smite' in 'smite' 08:48:58 kilobyte: it's full of butterflies plus an elf priest. 08:49:01 oh 08:49:02 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:49:03 damn 08:49:07 my idea is far superior, clearly. 08:49:27 The butterfly prays to its god. _You feel troubled. 08:49:30 syraine: the English language offers a number of interpunction symbols to indicate breaks: . , ; - In addition, one can sometimes put / and : to use. A string of single word lines make it hard to follow a discussion. 08:49:43 That was what I thought of when I heard smiterflies. It would be a nice abyss horror thing! 08:49:48 Dpeg: Periods would probably be good. But they're so passé... 08:49:52 :3 08:50:04 I accept however, for the sake of not infuriating you to apoplexy. 08:50:05 :) 08:50:13 Innocent little butterflies smitin' you to death. 08:50:38 !learn add syraine Is a halfling. 08:50:39 syraine[16/16]: Is a halfling. 08:50:44 >< 08:50:49 16th horrifying entry 08:51:03 I swear every quotation from me was taken entirely out of context, including me saying I was a troll. 08:51:22 Oh, that's two races I am, now. FR: Multiracing. Like multi-classing but with races. <3 08:51:25 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 08:51:47 You have tiny little horn nublets on your head. You give in to asking for directions in labyrinths. 08:52:16 You recover from paper scratches at an incredible rate. Your skin has acute eczema. You are a bit hairy. 08:52:50 !seen napkin 08:52:52 I last saw Napkin at Mon Sep 26 14:45:25 2011 UTC (23h 7m 26s ago) saying if anyone manages to do that, please let me know on ##crawl-dev. 08:52:54 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 08:54:22 bmh! hi there :) 08:54:47 "chaos butterfly", does aistrikes by flapping its wings 08:54:49 Napkin: what horrifying thing did you suggest be done 08:54:51 o= 08:56:24 galehar: when you say exits with a good defence: how horrifying do you want 'em? 08:57:40 What do you think about having a good number of tentacle spawners in the abyss? Sounds like it should be their homeplace. 08:58:02 elliptic, kilobyte: should we try to get something out of the Fi and Mi/MD discussions? 08:58:30 dpeg: I'd add HO into the fray 08:59:22 dpeg: why do they only have horns? question 08:59:37 if they're part bull, why aren't they covered in fur and have hooves 08:59:41 and perhaps DD to not lose the "dwarf of fire/earth" theme (DD have earth but not fire) 08:59:54 -!- ncampion has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 09:00:30 -!- ncampion has joined ##crawl-dev 09:00:33 speaking of aux mutations: http://sprunge.us/aKQQ+ 09:00:52 huh 09:00:56 horns can stun 09:01:13 hooves ignore AC? 09:01:15 what?! 09:01:28 bmh: not sure exactly. The general idea is that the defended exits should be accessible to players for whom the abyss is getting boring and unthreatening. Maybe around XL17. 09:01:38 or more 09:01:42 galehar: Notably, there is a vault like that now. 09:01:58 Chaos spawns surrounding an exit in a large area 09:02:00 I think 09:02:00 syraine: and with more, we can make them more common 09:02:11 mm 09:02:16 make abyssal vaults like that 09:02:26 Beastly Appendage currently grants horns 3, talons 3, beak or tentacles 3 09:02:27 preferrably not ones involving CBlink or blink 09:02:32 galehar: how about a few kobold demonologists with obstructed LOS hidden behind lava? 09:02:39 but I see that beak is so much worse than horns 09:02:47 beak only has one level 09:02:59 oh, I have an idea 09:03:05 make it give random levels of mutations up to X 09:03:06 syraine: In some mythology, Minotaurs are not complete hybrids. They have the body of a man and the head of a bull. 09:03:08 monstrous ones 09:03:24 galehar: That is true, but then it's questionable why they have this vast set of abilities 09:03:26 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:03:45 Having the head of a bull makes you good with a dire flail? 09:03:57 galehar: are there any where they have anything more than just head? 09:04:14 Kilobyte: I can answer that if it's not impolite to do so. 09:04:34 My question arose from the portrayals where they're covered in dark brown fur and are their own distinct race. 09:04:47 kilobyte: according to wikipedia: or, as described by Roman poet Ovid, "part man and part bull". 09:04:58 kilobyte: I am fine with all kinds of changes as long as we keep the tokens "minotaur" and "orc". If we want a dwarf, I like my norse, non-tolkien deep dwarf obviously better than the MD. 09:05:03 They have hoof-like feet and large horns; Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms. 09:05:18 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:05:35 FR: A wizmode command to generate a reasonable character at some XL 09:06:18 removing MD and then doing something to make HO/Mi apts more interesting and differentiated sounds good to me as well 09:06:30 We need a freaking proposal :) 09:06:44 "remove MD and then do something to make HO/Mi apts more interesting and differentiated" 09:06:46 done :D 09:06:55 On the devwiki? 09:07:00 * dpeg slaps MarvinPA with a proposal trout. 09:07:00 -puff- I'm going to cry, but I'll set a proposal up if it is needed... 09:07:02 -.- 09:07:03 ++MarvinPA; 09:07:04 :P 09:07:22 galehar: "part man and part bull" doesn't say anything about which description is correct 09:07:35 kilobyte: artistic licence 09:07:41 because currently they're just bad MDs 09:07:47 minotaurs are human-like enough to have intercourse with humans 09:07:54 galehar: looking around, the earliest description of something with more than a head is Dante, where it's a centauroid 09:07:55 kilobyte: many images from google results depict them with hooves 09:08:16 im sure there are a few depciting intercourse with humans too... 09:08:16 What would Minos say? 09:08:20 Kilobyte: modern portrayals, like I said, make them honorable humanoids with fur 09:08:27 Very warlike 09:09:11 They hate magic; ummm, in Dragonlance their god is Sargas, or Sargonnas to other races, the god of Vengeance. He's also a god of honor and the only respected Evil god 09:09:14 galehar: hmm, D&D does that, not sure about other sources, can dig deeper later 09:09:37 They would be very poor at stabbing 09:10:16 dpeg: yeah, so not sure how to keep the runesmith archetype best 09:11:04 er 09:11:12 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:11:21 would brainstorm:species:mountain dwarf be the right place to put a proposal 09:11:41 When I did the one for ballistomycetes, I put it in brainstorm - - 09:12:35 there is only one category these days 09:12:58 kilobyte: I think the hooves are more modern and comes from RPG and video games. The classical greek minotaur with just the bull head is good for crawl. 09:13:11 +1 09:13:27 where do deep dwarves come from 09:13:38 wait, don't answer that 09:13:41 Who are the nastiest summoners? (Apart from demons that summon retinues) 09:13:56 kilobyte: I suggest making the beastly spell just give tentacles for now, given that list 09:13:59 bmh: ancient lich? 09:13:59 MarvinPA: you missed the discussion that led to the Beastly Appendage spell. Would you care to look at it and decide what mutation levels would be best? http://sprunge.us/aKQQ has stats for aux mutations. 09:14:00 Blue Deaths, bmh. Shadow Creatures is horrible. Do ??blue death[3] 09:14:06 At least to me - - 09:14:11 ??blue death[3] 09:14:11 blue death[3/3]: Churchmouse the Blademaster (L27 HaWn), worshipper of Okawaru, blasted by a smoke demon (divine providence) (summoned by a deep elf sorcerer (summoned by a Blue Death (summoned by a deep elf demonologist (summoned by a Blue Death (summoned by a deep elf demonologist))))) in Zig:21 on 2011-08-02, with 649571 points after 98719 turns and 13:08:27. 09:14:21 whoa. 09:14:23 elliptic: or perhaps that with a fallback? 09:14:27 mm 09:14:32 I personally witnessed this 09:14:46 That was a good way to deal with a church mouse. 09:14:47 bmh: we can have some variety in difficulty ranging from hard to very nasty. 09:14:51 kilobyte: only races with claws need the fallback, right? and they have claws so I'm not concerned about them :P 09:14:54 bmh: omgwtfbbq! Nice! 09:15:09 kilobyte: It's summons all the way down! 09:15:26 could do tentacles falling back to talons, I guess 09:15:28 Question: haven't monster summoners been tremendously buffed 09:15:34 elliptic: and seafood, yeah. Currently it won't meld gloves but that can change. 09:15:45 Since effective late game abjuration is now like Level 6 or whatever 09:16:07 they also summon less stuff at once 09:16:22 syraine: single-target abjuration is still great 09:16:28 and still level 3 09:16:34 where can I find the syntax for renaming a monster? 09:16:50 mmkay 09:17:04 elliptic: you think it should just be tentacles 3? 09:17:26 marvinpa: maybe, yeah... or tentacles 2 might be more sane 09:17:52 hmm, maybe 09:18:14 tentacles 3 =D 09:18:29 (found it) 09:18:42 Oh, my suggestion was to give it a number of auxiliary mutations that aid unarmed combat dependent on power. 09:18:43 I didn't realize that the different auxes have different chances attached to them 09:18:53 i like the theme of it picking randomly from a few options but maybe that's hard to balance 09:18:55 which makes it much harder to balance anything 09:18:57 With each mutation having a weight. 09:19:04 yeah 09:19:20 Well, you can weight specific mutations with respective chances according to power, can't you? 09:19:23 if we ever make this stuff more sensible, perhaps we can make it random 09:19:36 incidentally we should make talons not be strictly worse hooves :( 09:19:52 I had no idea hooves ignored AC 09:19:55 that's incredible 09:19:56 for demonspawn's sake, too 09:20:04 hooves used to give a stealth penalty, right? 09:20:08 yeah 09:20:14 and then it was removed for no particular reason? 09:20:19 right 09:20:31 we could add that in at least, not sure it is enough though 09:20:46 talons could also cause bleeding, not that that means much 09:20:53 +1 09:20:55 then you get weird demonspawn combinations like hooves+nightstalker, though 09:20:56 to both ideas 09:21:12 marvinpa: strange you say that given my current char... 09:21:27 A: hooves 1, nightstalker 1, sense surroundings 1, EV +2 09:21:28 um 09:21:31 heh 09:21:42 elliptic: that is hilarious 09:21:48 does nightstalker one do anything 09:21:52 or is it cosmetic - - 09:21:57 (at XL 14... pretty ridiculously slow Ds to only have 4/15 muts at the halfway point) 09:22:00 -1 LOS, +stealth 09:22:42 elliptic: good point about DS mutations. I support it. We can exclude bad combinations like hooves+stalker (we already do so with other mutations). 09:23:00 centaurs are then less steathy 09:23:05 the stealth penalty removal was in a828a5b26e4f28c93aca5b4f8fa1e4fa013db841 09:23:08 in addition to their -3 Stealth aptitude 09:23:10 woo 09:23:28 an unpopular race with a stealth penalty; what happened to early Centaur :( 09:23:44 weird, the stealth penalty was just at level 3 09:24:03 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:05 the descriptions say stuff like "large cloven feet" 09:24:21 so its only proper hooves at high levels 09:24:29 I'm going to get off, now... goodbye, all. 09:24:33 -wave- 09:24:42 it says "You have large cloven feet." with hooves 1 09:24:55 -!- syraine has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0.2/20110902133214]] 09:24:56 or is that what you mean 09:25:04 still seems like they should decrease stealth 09:25:15 the -10 they had before was rather insignificant though 09:25:36 I think I recall why.... Was there a movement to make sure that body slot mutations are not worse than just removing the slot? 09:25:53 The reasoning for removal doesn't make much sense... 09:26:25 personally I don't see anything really wrong with having hooves + nightstalker 09:26:30 It might also have been that hooves compared badly to claws or horns and were buffed? It's so long ago. 09:27:04 only fire and ice conflict at the moment, i guess maybe it'd be fine to let hooves + nightstalker coexist, yeah 09:27:07 dpeg: the commit message just expresses concern about hooves+nightstalker and says that removing the stealth malus is simplest 09:27:27 marvinpa: nightstalker helps you deal with your noisy hooves :) 09:27:32 you'd still get benefit from both, exactly! 09:27:35 yeah 09:28:28 should the stealth penalty be different/larger/dependent on mutation level? 09:29:04 I think it should be mut level * 5 or mut level * 10 or something like that 09:29:26 actually I'll suggest 10 + 5 * mut level 09:29:35 elliptic: go ahead! 09:29:49 Whose commit is it? doy or sorear? 09:31:48 cryptic's 09:34:05 oh, I guess maybe the penalty was only at mut level 3 because it wasn't applied if you were wearing boots 09:34:16 not sure exactly what makes sense here 09:34:28 unmapped squares become magic-mapped, probably to do with web traps (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4624) by reid 09:37:37 Is there a technique I can use to stop a moth of wrath from flying toward the player, apart from caging it? 09:38:07 03elliptic * ref878b2a1b46 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Re-add a stealth penalty for hooves. 09:38:31 bmh: surround it with butterflies? :) 09:39:07 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39:26 Ernonarn: heh. I'd rather just cut off the wings 09:39:30 Imp Tiles Overhaul (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4625) by Curio 09:40:46 btw, let nightstalker give umbra instead and it'll work fine with hooves :) 09:42:27 bmh: confused? Neutral? 09:42:48 dpeg: I'd like to turn a "moth of wrath" into a "non-flying-thing of wrath" 09:43:41 berserker statue? 09:46:07 oh, whatever. I'll just create a "lich demonologist" instead 09:47:28 alefury: 'bloody totem' 09:53:30 ok -- I think this vault is sufficiently lethal 09:54:24 https://gist.github.com/1245260 09:56:23 okay! 09:56:40 feedback appreciated 09:58:00 seems harsh 09:58:23 alefury: galehar asked for something to kill^Wchallenge high level characters 09:58:31 1-4 is monsters in order of appearance in the listing? 09:58:47 jle: yeah, I haven't bothered to shuffle them yet 09:59:54 Does that mean this vault has nine deep elves? 10:00:06 those are l 10:00:08 not 1 10:00:09 jle: no, l looks like 1 10:00:15 Oh, I see. 10:00:20 alefury: the point is to provide an easy way out for players for whom the abyss is already trivialised. 10:00:32 So one of each then. 10:01:04 easy to find (since those vaults will be a bit more common than normal exits) but not easy to fight through for everyone. 10:04:14 happy to tone it down if it's far too brutal 10:04:35 Looks like the crypt ending I dread most, except more summoners. :) 10:05:20 I'm still bad at reading these apparently. Are the monsters entirely surrounded by transparent walls, just one corner, or something else? 10:05:21 at least the lich is toned down 10:05:47 the monsters are surrounded by transparent walls (to stop players from just blasting 'em) and lava 10:06:26 And w/W is? 10:06:40 deep/shallow water iirc 10:07:34 bmh: it looks good to me. Unless you want to tweak it a bit, submit it to Mantis, please. 10:08:03 Am I misreading this? I don't see a way to the portal without levitation. 10:08:41 jle: characters for whom the abyss is trivialised will probably have some form of lev 10:09:14 swiftfly is removed, so not quite as likely 10:09:39 mumra: I would prefer a shallow water path existing - it's even more horrible due to the slowing effect, but it's a temptation for anyone, not just people with levitation. 10:10:11 03kilobyte * r79a7ee3e29fd 10/crawl-ref/source/transform.cc: Beastly Appendage: no beak, horns at 2. 10:10:38 Like, making the two W (I assume that's deep water) SE and SW of the exit shallow. 10:12:24 jle: W is shallow water, w is deep water, but there I'm replacing deep water with either floor or shallow water 10:13:09 bmh: Oh, okay. So you'll be leaving a shallow water/floor path to the exit? 10:13:11 W and w are good mnemonics, right? 10:13:35 jle: yep. there's no deep water to be found. 10:14:17 Sounds good! This looks pretty ideal for an exit vault - dangerous, moreso if you lack a certain advantage, but possible for everyone to do in theory. 10:15:09 kilobyte: Yeah, I'm just a total noob at reading these things. 10:15:40 * kilobyte wonders how much work would reversing these two take. 10:16:47 its easy to remember once you know it, but reversing should be pretty straightforward 10:16:56 you just need an unused character to facilitate the swap 10:17:05 fixing up all the vaults would be a pain 10:17:09 oh, also text 10:17:16 and monster names 10:17:21 it would be a pain i guess 10:18:09 " Enter map name (prefix it with * for local placement)" -- whoever added that option: thank you 10:18:27 minor pain probably, have to filter for map/endmap and subst/kfeat lines 10:21:49 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 10:21:58 Is it ok to put an Orb of Fire in a vault? or should they never be found outside of zot? 10:23:10 dtsund: That's a very specific hostname they're giving you 10:23:50 i think they are immune to enchantments, so seems to me they would be pretty hard to banish 10:24:13 kilobyte: i would see it the other way around - w is smaller so should be shaller water; but it realise it's impossible to change it at this stage! 10:24:15 Distortion weapons! 10:24:20 s/shaller/shallow/ 10:25:04 bmh: I have no idea why it's that number. 10:25:07 bmh: best not to use them 10:25:09 galefury: Who said anything about banishment? An Orb might be visiting the Abyss on holiday. (By the way -- where did you 'g' go?) 10:25:11 would water down flavour 10:25:34 I don't know if it still exists, but I know I've seen an orb of fire in an entrance vault. 10:25:34 my g went away because both galehar and galefury start with gale, which annoys people to no end 10:25:36 dpeg: ok, I'll just use 'em as a basis for another monster 10:25:52 galefury: :-D Thanks 10:27:08 please think of the tiles users! 10:27:42 alefury: orb of fire -> orb of chaos 10:28:08 bmh: local placement. I just added the informative prompt. The option has been there for a while but nobody knew about it. 10:28:57 dpeg: would you prefer the raw vault or a git patch? 10:30:32 bmh: dpeg hepled linus write git. He is the uber git guru. Send him a branch merge request. 10:30:50 galehar: I don't believe you... 10:31:06 you're right :) 10:32:49 Is it possible/reasonable to add an Efreet-like cloud trail to a monster with lua? 10:35:16 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 10:36:20 cant you just use normal monsters that people know? :/ 10:37:00 some weirdness in the abyss sounds fun, but players should have some idea of what they are facing imo 10:37:20 bmh: raw vault, if you don't mind only being mentioned in the commit message. 10:38:08 alefury: If it was up to me, I'd just use an orb of fire 10:38:22 I could start with an orb of fire and lua it into something else when the player sees it 10:38:49 just use a fiend? 10:39:03 fiends are dangerous and fiery too 10:39:19 bmh: I really wouldn't use an orb of fire in the Abyss. It confuses players, it makes the exit very hard to use, and possibly rewards looking up vault definitions. 10:39:55 There is enough tough stuff out there --- what about running the tentacles-from-portal gauntlet? 10:40:25 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:40:40 alefury: ok, I'll just use fiend/ice fiend 10:42:51 dpeg: i think there were problems with tentacles in abyss, specifically with abyss shifting, no idea if that has been fixed 10:49:22 bmh: it seems the fireclouds are hardcoded to efreet and fire elemental genus monsters, so if you want them you need to base the monster on one of those. greater fire elemental could work. 10:50:02 or a special efreet or something 10:50:41 alefury: ah, what a pity 10:50:57 guess I'll have to use the tentacle gauntlet somewhere else then 10:51:25 someone made a tentacle abyss vault at some point, i dont remember the specific problem 10:52:09 new abyss might have changed something, but shifts are still in, so probably not 10:52:20 also the kraken works (i think), so maybe it got fixed 10:54:19 possibly it could be made to work if the portals+tentacles are only spawned when the player comes in sight, but you might find some severed tentacles in the abyss later 10:59:25 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:00:20 I fixed a bug with monsters in the abyss yesterday 11:00:46 the tentacle thing is older, in old abyss 11:01:00 it came up when the first batch of rune and exit vaults were added i think 11:01:14 there was a kraken bug but it has been fixed I think 11:01:44 there must be something about it on mantis, i didnt read this channel back then, ill see if i can dig it up 11:02:04 anyway, malign gateways in abyss vaults is great (I'm thinking of even having random ones at high abyss speed). If there's bugs, let's fix them. 11:02:27 have to go though 11:02:31 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: 'later] 11:06:47 hm, i cant find anything, so malign gateways might work 11:07:00 sorry for the confusion, just try it and see what happens i guess? 11:16:11 alefury: https://gist.github.com/1245513 too simple? 11:19:32 i dont know, it could look nice 11:20:13 not sure if the threat level is appropriate 11:20:29 it certainly seems like it would be easier than the previous one 11:20:56 also more dangerous to people who dont actually want to use the exit 11:20:57 unlike the other one, it's a lot easier to stumble into. 11:21:24 @??pit fiend 11:21:24 Pit Fiend (071) | Speed: 8 | HD: 19 | Health: 98-148 | AC/EV: 17/5 | Damage: 28, 21, 21 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(304), 05hellfire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 4470 | Sp: hellfire (3d20), melee, torment symbol. 11:21:42 these are slow, might be better for this vault 11:21:55 you could just put two of them then, or add some minor demons :) 11:22:20 Ouch, two pit fiends. That'd be fairly difficult to kill already. 11:22:34 its not worse than the kraken i think 11:22:56 and the lich with greater demon in the previous vault could easily summon two fiends too 11:22:59 um i think my game is crashing or something. every now and again when i fight something in water in cocytus my game just instantly goes back to the main menu, and when i get back into my game i'm back on the staircase without any of the level explored 11:23:11 thats a crash, yes 11:23:26 but shouldn't there be a message in here when it does it? 11:23:32 A single kraken sounds like an odd kind of challenge. If it can't run away, anyway. 11:23:44 there is a message for asserts i think, not sure about other crashes 11:23:57 it's done it three times now 11:24:06 if it crashes due to a segfault or something there wont be a message 11:24:09 i think 11:25:58 what should i do, it keeps doing it 11:27:15 mantis? 11:27:28 also, savegame backup from the menu 11:27:36 i dont play online, so i dont know the details about that 11:28:30 i had no trouble in coc the day before yesterday 11:29:00 but i got the ending that doesnt strictly need lev (and didnt use levitation) 11:29:17 so maybe that is part of the problem 11:29:22 alefury: ok, I'll double up on the pit fiends 11:29:39 i have an elec weapon maybe it's the discharge?? 11:29:43 do patrolling monsters give chase? 11:29:45 oh right 11:29:53 discharge in water = crash, but that has been fixed 11:29:58 o 11:29:58 its just not on the server yet 11:30:01 ok then 11:30:57 bmh: yes, i think they just go back to their spot instead of wandering/sleeping 11:31:06 but i dont really know 11:31:19 i have certainly been chased by them 11:38:09 hrm -- should standing on a silent square display the 'silent' status effect in the UI? 11:39:40 alefury: what's your favorite non-spellcast'y monster? 11:42:05 i dont think i have one :( 11:42:42 probably saint roka, but hes unique 11:43:20 i also like storm dragons and most kinds of giants 11:48:21 how about hellephants? 11:48:51 all of those monsters listed cast spells @_@ 11:49:12 stone giants cast? 11:49:41 most giants in crawl cast; stone and hill giants are the exception 11:49:51 i love hellephants, they are way too rare 11:50:00 and they are generic abyss monsters too 11:50:26 also i think the fire/ice giant bolts are natural abilities, not spells 11:50:29 @??fire giant 11:50:30 fire giant (05C) | Speed: 10 | HD: 16 | Health: 71-118 | AC/EV: 8/4 | Damage: 30 | Flags: sense invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(85), 05fire++, 12drown | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2044 | Sp: b.fire (3d25), fireball (3d26). 11:50:46 ?? !sil 11:50:46 !sil[1/1]: Used by Gretell to indicate that a monster is unaffected by silence. 11:50:53 oh, perfect :) 11:51:21 @??saint roka 11:51:22 Saint Roka (12o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 200 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 35 | Flags: evil | Res: 06magic(72) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 8385 | Sp: smiting (7-17). 11:51:46 hm, imo hes an invoker, not a caster :) 11:52:06 you can't use invocations while silenced, though, so... 11:52:16 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:52:37 what's the trick for subst a tile once, rather than every instance? 11:52:52 maybe KMONS? 11:52:59 i dont know vault syntax :( 11:53:00 that sounds right 11:53:47 is it too silly to put a silent spectre surrounded by perma rock and then surround that with giants? 11:54:26 it certainly is mean 11:54:41 could also be considered spoilery 11:54:50 silence indicating a possible exit 11:55:13 but i love the idea 11:55:38 such elaborate structures go a bit against abyss flavor though, imo 11:55:48 don't worry, I'm fuzzing the walls 11:56:20 silent spectres do naturally occur in the abyss, so i guess its not too bad 11:56:23 bmh: NSUBST: A = 1:B / *:C 11:56:45 dpeg: That will replace one instance of A with B and the rest with C? 11:56:48 yes 11:57:53 dpeg: how about replacing all instances of A with B or C? 11:58:38 ah, sorry, you got it wrong 11:58:54 my line takes all A and turns them into exactly one B and the rest C 11:59:22 Is that what you meant? 12:01:15 no :) -- take all A and turn them ALL into B OR turn them ALL into C 12:06:05 bye 12:06:16 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110701115916]] 12:07:35 SUBST: A : BC 12:08:27 if you want weights, use SUBST: A : BCCC, or, SUBST: A : B w:3 C w:125 12:08:43 < bmh> is it too silly to put a silent spectre surrounded by perma rock and then surround that with giants? 12:08:53 i'd rather see a new monster for this than just use silent spectres anywhere we want silence 12:09:20 'librarian statue' 12:10:00 Eronarn: agreed. Perhaps something that respects LOS? 12:10:40 The advantage of a silent spectre is that everyone knows what to expect. 12:10:48 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: bye] 12:11:09 bmh: 'The librarian statue gazes at you.' 12:11:14 er, glares, not gazes 12:11:36 there should probably be a statue version of silent spectre 12:11:46 that's impractical to destroy 12:11:54 for use in vaults, etc 12:11:56 yes 12:12:09 umbra and halo versions could be nice to have too 12:12:18 'shining statue', 'dark idol' 12:12:19 I could do it in lua -- just take a silver statue and swap its spells 12:12:47 bmh: that would make it cast silence. this is different from making it radiate an aura 12:12:54 true. 12:13:00 silent specters are hardcoded (as are anything with perma halos/umbra) 12:13:30 we should just have a new PROP exposed in lua 12:13:36 and they probably need to remain this way, unless you add a bunch of new code, for stuff like resetting grid after they die/teleport 12:14:19 rewriting that code would be good though 12:14:32 it's slowly replicating when it doesn't need to 12:15:06 we should just have 'aura' code, and then silence = aura(AURA_SILENT) or whatever 12:16:00 it would also make it much easier to figure out which auras to display, because you could give them explicit priorities and such 12:21:06 https://gist.github.com/1245675 12:21:20 easy to avoid while being dangerous 12:23:37 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:33:19 I like this vault already because it has a hellephant. 12:34:25 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:35:25 Dangerous Abyss Exit Vaults (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4626) by brendan 12:36:02 jle: it has five hellephants. 12:36:45 5 hellephants 12:37:25 Even better! 12:37:35 or four storm dragons. 12:39:08 Crawl: We're not trying to kill you. You're already dead. 12:47:51 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:53:44 bmh: I thought that only applied to three of the races 12:54:03 SamB: hm? 12:54:09 03naesten 07refs/merge-requests/9 * r2e6e24f36f7a 10/crawl-ref/settings/ (8 files): Add Emacs "Local Variables" sections to settings files. 12:54:10 03naesten 07refs/merge-requests/9 * r64936492ad1e 10/crawl-ref/settings/advanced_optioneering.txt: Reformat advanced_optioneering into a valid configuration file. 12:54:10 03naesten 07refs/merge-requests/9 * rd6996a482df6 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Add a couple of probability annotations to mon-place.cc. 12:54:10 03naesten 07refs/merge-requests/9 * r285c913196e5 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Try assigning zotdef abilities to hotkeys 'F' and up (#4587). 12:54:12 03naesten 07refs/merge-requests/9 * r791b56107e24 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Redraw quiver after inscribe command. 12:54:15 oh -- which ones? ghouls? 12:54:19 ... nevermind 12:54:41 you figured it out, I take it? 12:55:07 this is correct. 12:55:14 * SamB is glad CIA only mentioned the commits not already on another branch 12:55:35 * SamB was afraid it would mention all commits not already on *that* branch 12:56:20 -!- ldierk__ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:56:41 (yes, I can inject commits into the main repository! mwahahahaha!) 12:58:12 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 12:59:49 SamB: I think CIA has an upper bound on the number of commits it'll report at once. 13:00:12 dtsund, I've seen cia bots spam happily 13:00:28 dtsund: well, I don't think that's why it didn't actually spam here 13:00:38 nice that Ash isn't spammy anymore 13:00:55 because those are precisely the commits in that branch that aren't in master... 13:03:13 what do you think of putting zotdef abilities on 'F' and up? got a better idea how to keep 'em from getting mixed with the others? 13:04:36 bmh: I'm curious as to why you think those Abyss exit vaults are a good idea 13:05:25 -!- ldierk__ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:06:39 I think it's to give high-level folk a way to exit early. 13:06:51 Those aren't they guys who need it, though 13:08:33 the overall frequency/count of exit and rune vaults should probably increase 13:08:48 I survived new abyss and I had fun 13:09:12 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:09:24 ZChris13: want a t-shirt? 13:09:31 Yes 13:09:46 It should have a bad pun on it 13:10:42 dtsund: I would like to see challenge vaults appear at a higher frequency than freebie vaults. 13:10:46 dtsund: Yes, yes they are. Abyss is dreadfully boring for those people. 13:11:15 The idea was to keep the challenge for the folks who need it (easy exits) but put in challenging exits for those who can do them. 13:11:16 bmh: So that players are practically guaranteed to have storm dragons and liches chasing them if they can't fight through them? 13:11:19 No thanks. 13:11:39 dtsund: the vaults are enclosed. You have to intentionally wander into them 13:12:24 Yes, provided you actually know what's in them. 13:12:25 futhermore, they have a gap around the border so you can tell that they aren't a "natural" part of the abyss 13:13:15 I even included bloodstains around the door of one vault. How much more obvious should I be? 13:13:31 hmm, should zotdef abilities go above or below religious ones? 13:13:32 The Abyss has bloodstains all over the damn place 13:14:02 bmh: If it has doors, can you put exclusions on them? 13:14:21 jle: I didn't use doors. I could. 13:14:54 -!- ldierk__ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:15:20 jle: er, you mean warnings? 13:15:27 SamB: Probably. 13:15:38 bmh: If it's practical, that would be good. That way autoexplore won't screw you over if you use it in the new abyss. 13:16:04 oh right, I do believe I enabled auto-explore in the abyss... 13:16:29 then Crawl will ask you if you really want to open that door, and propose making an exclusion if you say no 13:17:18 This is the messages with the scary-looking runes on the door? 13:17:38 I'm ambivalent about handholding. 13:17:51 SamB: You mean in abl-show.cc's code? 13:18:12 -!- ldierk__ has quit [Client Quit] 13:18:30 bmh: Can you make autoexplore ignore them without explicit warnings? 13:18:56 (Though given the target audience for these vaults, I think some hand-holding could be justified) 13:19:01 jle: that's sort of contrived. I could put traps by the door, but that's not abyss at all 13:19:06 autoexplore in abyss really does not seem very useful 13:19:17 jeanjacques: it's to combat boredom 13:19:20 there is almost always stuff in los you want to ignore 13:19:27 so it still wont do much 13:19:55 I did not mean to suggest it's useful as of yet. But it's there currently. *shrug* 13:20:12 Some people might use it now, it might get better later. 13:21:07 dtsund: I mean in the menu 13:21:14 I'm proposing to give them their own section 13:21:16 Ah. 13:21:41 I mean, I've already flagged them all so I can do the hotkey thing and all, so why not? 13:22:49 I guess I'll put them above invocations, since they already are above invocations 13:28:54 this will make it a lot easier to spot normal abilities, especially with the hotkeys for zotdef abilities changed 13:29:23 dtsund: I'm adding marked doors. The Pit Fiend vault will remain open, 'cause Pit Fiends are slow 13:31:11 Pit fiends also have hellfire and torment. If they start chasing you, they're likely to get a few potshots in. 13:31:43 I just think you're severely underestimating the potential for newbie-splattage. 13:32:00 I could try to help you with that 13:32:34 I think I'm probably a remarkably good stand-in for a newbie 13:32:41 There are a dozen things in the abyss that will splat noobs. If we want to prevent it, we should have a depth parameter on the abyss 13:33:22 you could pretend depth = speed or somesuch 13:33:54 (how high does speed go again?) 13:35:01 SamB: yes, but I don't want to fiddle with the vault placement code 13:35:08 bmh: Well, yes. But 1s aren't that common. 13:35:35 Beginners have a hard enough time dealing with 2s and 3s. 13:35:40 bmh: yeah, well, that should probably ignore such a thing anyway 13:35:54 don't the vaults get put there once and stay for the whole game? 13:37:24 a vault builder should be able to specify depth like in any other vault and have it "just work" 13:37:32 from my extensive low-level abyss-scumming, the number wasn't as important as the speed and range 13:39:23 ais523: Every 1 has at least one of those; some have both. 13:39:41 some were more dangerous than others 13:39:46 if I could run away before they noticed, it was fine 13:39:47 heh 13:39:56 this error message is nice and obscure: 13:40:06 zsh: text file busy: ./crawl 13:40:07 I imagine a spriggan could probably evade a Blue Death 13:40:18 Or a cacodemon 13:40:27 SamB: "text" is a /really/ bad name for the section of an executable that contains the actual code 13:40:46 ais523: and it's worse for the executable itself 13:40:48 but, unfortunately, the standard name 13:41:08 sections are obscure enough I'm not sure it matters as much 13:41:50 they're kind-of important for build system design, or merely reading asm 13:42:28 those are pretty arcane, though 13:42:50 attempting to start a program that's still being linked? not so much! 13:44:40 indeed 13:46:29 Shedu can spawn inside walls 13:47:01 ??shedu 13:47:01 shedu[1/3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamassu 13:47:02 it *is* kinda wierd that in all these years nobody, not even the MSC team, seems to have switched from .text to .code, though... 13:47:55 I mean, how many linker scripts could they have had at that point? 13:48:40 and it's not like LINK.EXE would support the same linker scripts as the ld(1) on whatever system they were using... 13:48:46 probably more than you'd think, quite a few IDEs are generating linker scripts behind the scenes 13:50:34 (I'm assuming that the NT team started out using a non-MS compiler and then switched at some point. This could be untrue, but I'm not sure why else they would have grabbed all those *nix formats...) 13:50:55 well, they'll have to have written their first compiler with something 13:51:07 they had a compiler already 13:51:08 and using an existing compiler would be much faster than trying to write the whole thing in asm 13:51:28 but it was presumably not ported to the relevant systems initially 13:51:52 also, NT's whole shtick was portability 13:52:36 I think they still try to support at least two ISAs at all times? 13:54:20 I still remember when winamp was available for more than one architecture... 14:18:35 dtsund: I've added "dire warnings" to the vault doors. 14:22:09 03naesten 07refs/merge-requests/9 * r0bea478c2741 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abl-show.cc abl-show.h): Give Zot Defence it's own section in the ability menu. 14:22:34 'kay. I still don't love the idea, but it's an improvement. 14:26:51 dtsund: I'll cook up a few harmless vaults to even the score 14:33:20 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:40:57 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:44:38 -!- Galefury has joined ##crawl-dev 14:50:42 howdy, gale* 14:50:52 -!- Galefury is now known as alefury 14:50:55 hi 14:51:07 hows the vault business going? 14:51:45 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4626 14:52:01 dtsund suggested that the vaults would splat n00bs without doors, so I added warney doors 14:52:11 in the abyss? 14:52:45 yeah... both variants are up. 14:58:40 silence already is not necessarily an abyss exit by the way, there are wandering silent spectres 14:59:03 oh. I thought they were only in tomb/crypt 14:59:09 -!- bmh is now known as bmh_away 14:59:25 its just that it can be seen from far away, so if there is an exit with a silent spectre spoiled people will try to find the exit 14:59:29 not necessarily bad i guess 14:59:43 making people go into silence is probably fine :) 15:05:26 hrm, a problem. Got a kitten today. Insists on sitting on my knees but is too young to sit stable enough for random movement while typing or otherwise using mouse/keyboard :p 15:05:49 ive heard babies are worse 15:06:02 bmh_away: how many monsters does that silent vault generate? 15:06:16 just one of each, or are all the M tiles replaced by monsters? 15:06:31 kilobyte: trying killing. Maybe next live will be more stable. 15:06:53 galehar: :p 15:07:11 even 4 or 5 of these monsters with silence would be really brutal 15:08:05 also, enjoy while it's just sitting on your knees. Next it will jump on the keyboard to chase the mouse pointer (or just sleep there). 15:08:35 @??hellephant 15:08:35 hellephant (04Y) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 138-203 | AC/EV: 13/10 | Damage: 45, 20, 15 | Flags: 05demonic, !sil | Res: 06magic(133), 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 4411 | Sp: fire breath (3d40), blink. 15:08:48 alefury: none of them are fast 15:09:11 Less predictable xtahuas. 15:11:03 oh indeed... there's not just one hellephant but four on the average 15:13:10 Do gnoll shamans only haste other gnolls? 15:14:22 Actually, for that matter, can you just give "haste other" to a critter and it will use it on random friendly (to it) monsters? 15:15:15 i think putting 16k exp worth of monsters into silence (monsters not affected by silence no less) is a bit over the top 15:15:21 its the abyss, not a zig 15:17:19 also i think losing the corridor would be good for that vault 15:17:56 oh, its only sometimes a corridor 15:23:08 alefury: you said you wanted something to challenge players who find the abyss trivial :) If you think it's over the top, just tone it down a little 15:23:23 i didnt say it, im not dpeg ^^ 15:23:32 also im not a dev 15:23:54 alefury: you still know that 4 comes after 3 15:24:01 (away for real) 15:42:17 what i meant is that even for that purpose i think that vault is too hard 15:42:57 if i understand it correctly all the Ms get replaced by monsters 15:43:14 or 5+4+4+3 of them anyway 15:43:29 i should really read the vault syntax description 15:46:46 due: what's with this "props.h" file? 15:49:59 Regarding how you can see silent spectres well in advance: that's why I changed them in Light, I thought they were kind of dull 15:52:56 SamB: just looked at props.h ... yeah, what is that? kind of looks like a doxygen experiment ... 15:53:29 doxygen doesn't seem to much like it, though 15:53:46 that's because @ has been replaced with \ 15:54:23 hence, why it looks like someone was experimenting 15:57:48 no, that's not what it minded, actually 15:58:05 I'm not sure doxygen really cares about @ vs. \ at all 15:58:48 it's actual complete was basically 15:59:23 props.h is an attempt at documenting keys in props 15:59:31 props.h:7: warning: documented function `CrawlHashTabl 15:59:31 e props' was not declared or defined. 15:59:33 and yeah, it's doxygen syntax 15:59:38 whoops 15:59:46 darn invisible newlines 16:01:46 not sure how you get this error, but props isn't a function, it's a variable. And it's declared in actor.h 16:04:01 yeah, I suspect it's just a generic message 16:04:11 since \var is documented as being equivalent to \fn 16:04:21 (yes, they're documented with the backslashes) 16:05:44 and maybe it's just a namespace mismatch or something like that... 16:08:45 -!- dtsund has left ##crawl-dev 16:10:49 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 16:15:52 this new cat is not yet creative enough to help with naming demons 16:16:01 unless we want to introduce ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo~~ 16:16:31 the vault header syntax description is very long :/ 16:16:37 !lg * killer=~ooo 16:16:49 8. Mandor the Frost Mage (L8 VpIE), worshipper of Sif Muna, slain by nooodl's ghost on D:7 on 2011-09-03, with 2109 points after 7322 turns and 0:38:01. 16:17:12 alefury: are you using the wiki version? it's easier to navigate; and you are welcome to do any cleaning up you want! 16:17:51 yeah, thanks for wikifying it 16:18:27 im not going to read all the other stuff right now though, i just want to know the syntax to understand the vault definitions, not build my own 16:18:32 alefury: i wanted to reorganise the Header Declarations page; a lot of them could be grouped together a bit more naturally (e.g. MONS and KMONS, ITEM and KITEM, etc.) 16:18:32 at least thats the plan so far 16:19:41 alefury: understanding and the SUBST and NSUBST stuff is the key, then you can see how the map is actually built up 16:20:18 yeah, i got mons and item and stuff from reading vault descriptions, thats fairly intuitive 16:20:26 the k stuff too 16:20:45 just the tags and subst stuff is a bit hard 16:21:40 NSUBST is kind of arcane. The docs for it could be improved with some more examples, I think. 16:26:37 Tile for "staff" item (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4627) by Un67 16:26:48 Several SHUFFLE: lines can be used, and mixed with SUBST:, and the shuffles and substitutions will be applied in order. You can also put multiple SHUFFLEs on one line, comma-separated. Shuffles cannot use , or /. All spaces are stripped before shuffling. 16:26:49 ahhhhhhhhhhhhh 16:30:45 okay, that difference between = and : in subst is important 16:32:18 yes. 16:32:27 i was confused for a long time reading vaults because of that 16:47:07 alefury: i'm just writing some more information on exactly that 16:47:53 alefury: it was buried in a paragraph at the end of the NSUBST explanation, i'm making is slightly more prominent and clarifying the behaviour some more 16:49:18 i love how hellion island is used as an example for no_rtele_into, but doesnt actually use that prop 16:49:43 maybe it should? 16:50:42 well, there's a decent chance of getting killed before you can react if you appear on a hellion island 16:50:47 which is no fun 16:51:25 you get the first action when you land 16:52:15 it will probably be your last action 16:53:11 could you get dropped on the island right after you go through a portal? 16:53:17 because that would just suck 16:53:23 -!- bmh_away is now known as bmh 16:53:33 hellion island -- that's the minor demon island surrounded by lava? 16:53:44 that's the island full of hellions 16:53:46 :P 16:53:51 in pan 16:53:53 they will hellfire you 16:53:55 all of them 16:54:24 Lots and lots of hellfire 16:55:05 hellfire. yeck. 16:55:21 Xiberia: yes, you can get drop in it after taking a portal. Hilarity ensue. 16:55:43 hilarity for devs 16:55:50 tears of frustration for the poor players 16:55:58 some of the devs are players, too! 16:56:06 that's a lie 16:56:15 >.> 16:56:17 you can blink off it and only get hit by a few hellfires 16:56:29 and then blink again and you're safe 16:56:52 .learn add pan checklist Two scrolls of blinking 16:56:55 xiberia: The devs are xom, the players are xoms playthings. 16:57:19 i'm not a fan of unavoidable situations that require me to blink out to survive 16:58:21 i don't think it's unreasonable to expect players to have some sources of blink/teleport/haste etc by the time they're doing pan :P 16:58:43 Why don't we just make it no_rtele_into. Problem solved 16:59:01 teleport/haste maybe. blink does not appear in wand form 16:59:15 do pan portals respect no_rtele_into? 16:59:25 it appears in scroll, evocable and spell form luckily! 16:59:25 even with pres, i wouldn't want to rely on scrolls and potions surviving in pan 16:59:40 oh, evocables, right. 16:59:58 alefury: I think they do 17:00:00 but they're not controlled blink? 17:00:03 Though evoking normal blink might not be enough to avoid the death. 17:00:06 i think 17:00:31 the builds i've used to get through pan have not been spellcasters 17:00:33 i don't think it's unreasonable to expect players to have some sources of cTele by the time they're doing pan 17:01:26 galehar: we should add a 'plz_rtele_into' tag that upweights vault tiles when performing a random teleport. 17:01:30 What could possibly go wrong? 17:01:53 a teleport magnet 17:01:59 I wouldn't mind giving hellion island no_rtele_into but I also don't think it is really necessary 17:02:00 ctele is pretty hard to come by 17:02:19 Zannick: there's a spell, but there has been talk of removing it 17:02:37 iirc 17:02:42 in my mind, no_rtele_into should be for places where players could get stuck, not for places where they could die 17:02:50 esp with the orb -ctele, i basically just ignore it 17:03:01 I made a xom overflow altar that's a single tile that spews chaos clouds. I can't decide if this is a good thing or a bad thing. 17:03:06 elliptic: i agree with that 17:03:07 pan is sort of meant to be both hard and random, and even in the very unlikely event that you do land directly on hellion island it's probably survivable, so i'm not sure there's too much of a problem 17:03:47 if anything, any victim of such unfortunate randomness now has a good story to tell 17:04:03 its probably survivable if you are prehasted (reasonable) and have ctele and a source of blink, or cblink 17:04:04 badge of honour! 17:04:20 which is not quite as reasonable 17:04:25 you could just as easily land in the middle of the eyes of draining vault and lose all your mp in a turn, or something 17:04:41 yeah, but then you probably can just walk away 17:04:42 or just land next to a pan lord who then storms you 17:04:46 !lg * map=lemuel hellion island s=cv 17:04:46 6 games for * (map=lemuel hellion island): 5x 0.8, 1x 0.9-a 17:04:51 unless you get executioners or something 17:05:03 i landed near the eyes one once 17:05:04 only 6 deaths in the actual vault since map= was added (0.7) 17:05:20 elliptic: can you ask it what XL those deaths were? 17:05:23 walked a little away, regained some mp, and fought a pan lord for awhile before dying 17:05:24 !lg * map=lemuel hellion island s=xl 17:05:24 6 games for * (map=lemuel hellion island): 6x 27 17:05:39 ha... 17:06:01 !lg * map=lemuel hellion island s=name 17:06:01 6 games for * (map=lemuel hellion island): 1x heavy, 1x Kote, 1x inspector071, 1x jaruokki, 1x VZ, 1x Caethan 17:06:04 there are probably also some deaths with people who died right outside the vault, but not that many I think 17:06:32 there certainly are lots of stories about it 17:06:38 !lg * place=pan 17:06:38 442. hjklyubn the Metallomancer (L21 SETm), worshipper of Sif Muna, mangled by a large abomination (led by an Executioner) in Pandemonium (pan disco hall) on 2011-09-27, with 250533 points after 39049 turns and 3:09:53. 17:06:40 there's one from N78291 17:06:41 ??hellion island 17:06:42 hellion island[1/1]: 1970s television show featuring Ricardo Montalban. 17:06:48 the first time i went into pan i landed beside a pan lord and promptly got stomped by him and his balrug friends 17:06:50 !lg * place=pan s=xl 17:06:50 442 games for * (place=pan): 315x 27, 23x 26, 19x 25, 11x 24, 10x 22, 8x 20, 8x 23, 7x 17, 7x 19, 5x 18, 5x 14, 4x 9, 4x 16, 4x 13, 4x 21, 3x 12, 2x 15, 2x 11, 1x 10 17:06:53 galehar: from 0.4 or 0.3 or something, yes 17:06:57 not cool crawl devs, not cool 17:07:04 !lg * place=pan s=place 17:07:04 442 games for * (place=pan): 442x Pan 17:07:10 !lg * place=pan killer=hellion s=xl 17:07:10 39 games for * (place=pan killer=hellion): 32x 27, 1x 22, 1x 20, 1x 26, 1x 25, 1x 24, 1x 15, 1x 14 17:07:24 does anyone apart from Roxanne teleport you toward it? 17:07:26 !lg * cv>=0.8 place=pan / map=lemuel hellion island 17:07:26 154 games for * (cv>=0.8 place=pan): N=6/154 (3.90%) 17:07:32 !lg * place=pan cv>=0.7 s=place 17:07:32 203 games for * (place=pan cv>=0.7): 203x Pan 17:07:48 bmh: lom lobon teleports himself near YOU 17:08:33 !lg * cv>=0.8 place=pan s=map 17:08:34 154 games for * (cv>=0.8 place=pan): 71x , 17x cerebov, 9x cerebov st, 8x gloorx vloq st, 6x gloorx vloq, 6x lemuel hellion island, 5x lemuel hall of pain, 4x mnoleg st, 3x rand demon 2, 3x rand demon 7, 3x lom lobon st, 3x rand demon 9, 2x lom lobon spiral st, 2x lom lobon, 2x lemuel draining boxes, 1x rand demon 3, 1x rand demon 1, 1x rand demon 6, 1x mnoleg, 1x enter ziggurat pan d, 1x lom lobo... 17:09:51 !lg * cv>=0.8 place=pan / killer=hellion 17:09:51 154 games for * (cv>=0.8 place=pan): N=15/154 (9.74%) 17:10:05 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 17:10:16 hellions are one of the most dangerous things in pan outside of the island too, of course 17:10:20 i know 17:10:57 !lg * cv>=0.8 place=pan killer=hellion / map=lemuel hellion island 17:10:57 15 games for * (cv>=0.8 place=pan killer=hellion): N=5/15 (33.33%) 17:11:22 bmh: no. The spell is SPELL_BLINK_OTHER_CLOSE and only Roxanne has it. 17:11:27 oh wow, someone managed to die to something else on hellion island 17:11:40 !lg * map=hellion island killer!=hellion 17:11:40 No games for * (map=hellion island killer!=hellion). 17:11:44 -!- bmh has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:11:46 !lg * map=~hellion island killer!=hellion 17:11:47 !lg * map=lemuel hellion island killer!=hellion 17:11:49 1. jaruokki the Farming Cryomancer (L27 MuIE), worshipper of Sif Muna, blasted by Phakk (great blast of fire) in Pandemonium (lemuel hellion island) on 2011-07-09, with 1054559 points after 277979 turns and 26:31:50. 17:11:49 1. jaruokki the Farming Cryomancer (L27 MuIE), worshipper of Sif Muna, blasted by Phakk (great blast of fire) in Pandemonium (lemuel hellion island) on 2011-07-09, with 1054559 points after 277979 turns and 26:31:50. 17:11:56 hmm, maybe something fun could be done with a cloud generator and blink close :) 17:12:03 yes. he died to the hellion lord 17:12:32 :P 17:12:48 who seems to have had firestorm 17:12:52 how fitting 17:12:53 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:13:15 hellfirestorm 17:16:35 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: woop class] 17:18:38 good night 17:18:41 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: Stay sane inside insanity!] 17:25:37 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 17:27:34 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 17:31:57 Naga/traps (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4628) by DJNW 17:36:02 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:37:45 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 17:39:04 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 17:39:42 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:50:27 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:55:26 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:20 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:14:54 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:16:57 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 18:40:00 ping 18:52:15 03naesten 07refs/merge-requests/9 * r2a6ca9d9e53a 10/crawl-ref/source/Makefile: Detect "debug" and "profile" targets precisely. 18:52:18 03naesten 07refs/merge-requests/9 * r9f21f47fb8df 10/crawl-ref/INSTALL.txt: Suggest ccache. 18:52:29 03naesten 07refs/merge-requests/9 * r0917af54dc3b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Fix Doxygen warnings. 18:52:29 03naesten 07refs/merge-requests/9 * r62d9aff72421 10/crawl-ref/source/ (crawl_all.doxy crawl_simple.doxy): Update the Doxygen config files with "doxygen -u". 18:55:16 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:58:10 -!- Xiberia has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:44 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:15:09 * SamB didn't know it was possible to reach with a scyth of dragon slaying... 19:15:21 er, scythe 19:15:43 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 19:17:20 I have a friend who's trying to build crawl for the first time, but when he does the git submodule update it chokes on freetype and then gives him this error: "fatal: Needed a single revision" 19:17:42 I've never personally had a problem updating the submodules, so I have no idea what this means 19:18:03 also apparently getting this error: "unable to find current revision in submodule path" 19:18:15 is this a problem with the crawl repository? 19:27:27 did he submodule init first? 19:32:45 yeah, this is that command, I always forget the exact syntax :P 19:32:59 cloning a new version of crawl myself to see if it's just him 19:44:54 and he's not running Debian, right? 19:45:33 nope, msysgit 19:45:47 took *weeks* for us to figure out how to install it on his machine 19:46:05 turns out he had some corrupted path variables, or something 19:46:40 so, it's just one more link in the chain of frustration :P 19:47:03 I fully expect the linking phase of make will format his hard drive 19:58:43 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 20:02:42 this is so weird, it keeps choking as it tries to clone freetype 20:02:46 it worked for me, though 20:03:52 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:04:33 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:47 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 20:05:24 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 20:08:04 so, msysgit is now an OS, huh? 20:08:16 is it better than normal msys? 20:08:32 msysgit implies windows :P 20:08:51 so does normal msys... 20:09:13 never used msys before, but as far as I know msysgit is just msys with git bundled in 20:09:39 so yes it is probably strictly better 20:10:12 hmm, true 20:11:57 * SamB wonders what mingw-get's problem is 20:15:42 * SamB tries upgrading it 20:18:54 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:22:34 yeah, it seems that there is no "git" or "msys-git" package in msys 20:24:47 now he is getting "unable to fetch submodule path" 20:24:56 might still be having issues with his path variable 20:26:27 eh? 20:27:28 you might try Sysinternals' "procmon" utility if you want to see what's getting run and stuff 20:28:05 (It's the nearest Windows equivalent of strace of which I am aware.) 20:29:11 I will advise him to try it out, although I am hundreds of miles away at the moment so cannot guide him effectively 20:30:48 (at the moment he is getting "reference is not a tree" errors, I fully expect to exhaust the list of unique error messages by midnight) 20:31:17 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 20:31:59 what filesystem is he using? 20:33:44 ntfs, presumably 20:35:49 confirmed 20:43:39 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 20:43:49 just the same, it might be a good idea to run chkdsk... 20:53:23 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 20:53:44 due: apart from the fact that it killed me, 'ossuary_due_cavern' is too easy. 20:54:09 With something like Stealth 3 I was able to ambush all of the mummies. Everything was going swimmingly until I decided to melee a guardian mummy 20:54:53 :D 20:55:12 That one was my own damn fault. 20:55:18 The skulls don't seem to be waking things up properly. 20:55:20 and that's how people die to it ;) 20:55:22 Oh 20:55:27 yeah, that one needs to be nuked 20:55:36 the dynamics and noise stuff etc all changed since 0.5 20:59:50 due: Can I get your opinion on my "the abyss wants you to die" exit vaults? 21:02:25 SURE 21:02:28 ... sure 21:02:31 sorry, capslock fail 21:03:08 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4626 21:08:31 due: oh, I did some doxygen fixes... 21:09:39 hmmm 21:09:45 some of them are pretty intense! 21:10:20 due: yeah... they might kill players. 21:11:22 * SamB chuckles 21:13:30 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:13:36 well, more along the lines of the fact that you can end up in the abyss quite early 21:14:38 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:16:28 isn't the point of abyss exit vaults to be shortcuts out of the abyss for high-level players? 21:17:11 Wensley: yes. 21:17:20 Exit Vaults: Too hard to be rune vaults. 21:17:46 the difficulty of those vaults looks more appropriate for rune vaults, but I cant say for sure because exit vaults are so rare, so feedback on them is almost nonexistent 21:18:08 evilmike: I think the silent vault is too hard to be a rune vault. 21:18:57 why do they have generate_awake? 21:19:29 evilmike: because dungeon noise won't wake 'em up 21:19:40 oh yeah, duh 21:20:03 i meant to ask that about the other vaults 21:20:11 eg the demonologist one you uploaded has generate_awake 21:20:17 also, also, the silent one doesn't look *too* tough for a melee character, except for maybe the 5 hellephants one 21:20:43 evilmike: oh, the demonologists... not sure why I did that. 21:21:19 I'd say it's probably better not to have generate_awake, unless there's a reason for it... otherwise you're just making it so stealth is less useful for no reason 21:24:38 I had thought of adding a moth of wrath, but thought it would be too trog-like 21:25:16 hmm, I think I'd find another exit if it had a moth of wrath :P 21:49:23 where should I look for exposing new functions to lua? 21:49:52 l_***.cc 21:49:57 what exactly is the function? 21:50:09 is it for des-only or is it for player-based interaction? 21:50:28 I want to make a xom altar that chases the player like a lost puppy. 21:51:12 haha awesome 21:51:52 (unless you worship xom) 21:52:38 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:52:44 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 21:53:12 you can't already make moving features in lua? 21:53:27 um 21:53:33 you... could 21:53:54 Your better effort would be to subclass the feature mimic code to create an altar mimic unique for Xom. 21:54:28 due: but it wouldn't be an actual altar, 'eh? 21:54:42 can you pray at an altar mimic? 21:54:52 Well, no, but it gets you the desired effect? 21:55:10 that depends on what effect was desired 21:55:27 SamB: genuine altar. This is inspired by Xom moving the stairs 21:55:33 bmh: have you begun work on abyss exit mimics 21:55:48 if not, may I suggest abyss exit mimics 21:55:49 Wensley: no. Why would we want those? 21:55:55 sadism? 21:56:12 bmh: what, you mean you guys *aren't* sadistic? 21:56:13 hahaha 21:56:15 bmh: 21:56:17 ??sadism 21:56:17 sadism[1/2]: Two very quiet zot traps located at choke points on D:11. See also Sigmund with a wand of draining and crawl .3 21:56:19 ??sadism[2] 21:56:20 sadism[2/2]: "Don't morph the abyssal rune nor the exit." <--- WHATDFLJSDAFSHSJHDISSATISFACTION the rune I can understand but the exits must morph 21:57:18 Wensley: I'm bad at crawl, so my goal is to make everyone else bad at crawl. 21:58:25 bmh: hmm. my goal was to make it slightly easier to at least begin to become good at crawl... 21:59:01 SamB: It's easy to be good at crawl. Don't be careless. 21:59:09 right 22:07:09 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0/20110922153450]] 22:07:45 due: how about a feature mimic with AC:0 HP:1 that creates a real altar when you kill it? 22:12:32 -!- mikee_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:13:15 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:14:00 -!- mikee_ has quit [Client Quit] 22:20:42 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:21:19 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:34:41 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:36:48 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:52:20 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:52:35 can we not make abyss exit portals vanish once they're in LOS 22:53:18 -!- ixtli_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:53:33 valrus: wha? 22:53:55 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:53:55 -!- ixtli_ is now known as ixtli 23:39:25 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]