00:01:48 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-849-gbcbc5b4 (32) 00:07:59 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 00:11:56 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 00:18:52 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-849-gbcbc5b4 00:22:42 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:41:58 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 00:44:02 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: good night everybody! <3] 00:47:31 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:53:45 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 01:04:55 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: but now is sleep time] 01:19:44 -!- Amonchakad has joined ##crawl-dev 01:21:56 Hello, sorry for disturbing; could someone explain me the recent changes in trunk to skill training? How does the training of level 0 skills work now? 01:23:18 Amonchakad: I think it works the same, except you can see the progress and get some benefit before it hits lvl 1 01:25:36 I also noticed that, on non-spellcasting characters, I was training ALL magic schools in addition to spellcasting, when reading scrolls. I suppose that was a bug? 01:26:01 Hmm, maybe. I'm not involved in the implementation. 01:27:25 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:27:44 Ok, thanks. 01:35:35 -!- Galefury has joined ##crawl-dev 01:36:56 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 01:47:28 -!- Galefury has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:53:46 -!- Amonchakad has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:09:31 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- *I* use it, so it must be good!] 02:16:03 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:17:47 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:19:21 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 02:29:53 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-849-gbcbc5b4 (32) 02:39:05 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 03:24:37 statue form abandon's yred (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4600) by omnirizon 03:27:37 -!- ghallberg has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:44:16 -!- ghallberg has joined ##crawl-dev 03:53:56 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:55:56 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 04:17:05 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 04:17:32 !seen evilmike 04:17:33 dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 04:17:33 I last saw evilmike at Fri Sep 23 08:55:56 2011 UTC (21m 37s ago) quitting with message Quit: something happened. 04:17:39 !messages 04:17:39 (1/1) kilobyte said (15h 9m 12s ago): may I add self-assembling Twisted Resurrection as an implementable? I'm afraid I have too many ideas too little time, and this one is not hard to code and people talk about it favorably. 04:19:23 kilobyte: sure. Go ahead! Implementables are not meant to be exclusive. If you have a good idea that may never make the jump form todo to trunk, dish it out. If it might have controversial aspects, chat about it here. (No formal discussion needed in general.) And then add it to Mantis. The Twisted Resurrection seems great to me. 04:19:44 No Zin feedback, where's da evilmike? :) 04:21:36 Hi dpeg! 04:21:41 Hi! 04:21:53 How is it going? 04:22:27 All right I think! I slept on the couch last night - not much, but I feel pretty up today. (: 04:23:08 It's the teeth. 04:23:19 kid's teeth? 04:23:21 already?? 04:23:29 Yup, she's nine months today 04:23:54 wow, time runs fast.... better teach her the scales today and crawl tomorrow 04:24:14 Scales, like musical scales? (: 04:24:31 yes! 04:24:49 We do sing a lot! 04:25:16 Good! 04:25:40 Perhaps Crawl is translatable in a couple of years? I played a bit with my nephew a while ago, when he was 8-9.. I did think if the text were in Finnish, it might have been interesting. 04:26:09 He knows quite a bit of English by now though, maybe we should try again. 04:26:27 dpeg: Very good work on the implementables and all by the way! 04:26:39 Keskitalo: Singin! 04:26:40 :D 04:26:59 Can't wait til my #2 starts singing :) 04:28:02 I think I have solves Zin's money issues. 04:28:05 *solved 04:29:35 Sounds good! 04:30:29 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:30:37 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:32:31 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:34:14 !tell evilmike You expressed interest in Zin, now you're shackled. I updated the Zin page and would like you to read over it before it goes implementable. Also, on the Ely page you comment on the single least important topic :) All the rest was fine with you? 04:34:15 dpeg: OK, I'll let evilmike know. 04:53:16 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 04:59:59 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:00:04 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-849-gbcbc5b4 05:04:17 03naesten * r4ffdd77b27cf 10/crawl-ref/source/ (command.cc main.cc): Move "get lots of Zot Points" wizmode command from ^Z to Z. 05:04:27 03naesten * r9fce87532e21 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Don't let monsters use throwing nets on foes that can never move (#4566) 05:04:27 03naesten * r64c27fe18c9b 10/crawl-ref/source/command.cc: Clarify the "Wizard targeting commands" section of the wizmode help screen. 05:04:28 03kilobyte * rd5e784bd4f70 10/crawl-ref/source/ (describe.cc religion.cc religion.h spl-cast.cc): Warn about penance/excommunication for god-forbidden spells more prominently. 05:04:28 03naesten * r0a4b700a6b75 10/crawl-ref/source/wiz-mon.cc: Clarify prompt for &M (create monster by name) wizard mode command. 05:04:28 03naesten * ra2abffa3ab12 10/crawl-ref/source/cio.cc: Fix line_reader's handling of the DELETE key. 05:04:28 03naesten * r296919cc4e42 10/crawl-ref/source/traps.cc: Plants will no longer get "caught" in nets, even if hit (#4566) 05:05:15 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:07:35 good stuff 05:07:40 edlothiol: thanks for update 05:08:50 Keskitalo: sadly, I'm not so sure I'd get the basic support for translations in time for 0.10 05:09:19 I imagine the translations stuff is a gargantuan pile of gargantuan tasks. 05:09:57 I can try using pango so local tiles would be able to display characters out of ISO-8859-1 like console and webtiles can, but that's of little use without translated messages. 05:10:55 but maybe a step to an character based display for the GUI version instead of tiles? 05:11:24 there's a messaging overhaul entangled in the combat rewrite patch, we could try to separate those parts and apply them to trunk... yet actually finishing and merging the rewrite would obviously waste less work 05:11:38 bhaak: :p 05:12:23 hey,that's a serious impediment for me to play the GUI option. I just can't get my brain to parse those small pictures correctly 05:14:55 bhaak: you might not know that yet, but it is already implemented. What you want is called "console" :p 05:16:49 pfff 05:17:04 there are improvements in the GUI version over the console version :-) 05:18:28 like, crashing? Or bringing a modern machine to 100% CPU use? 05:18:57 using tiles with no tiles seems to be a pretty pointless exercise to me... 05:18:59 he 05:19:30 for example the information about the monsters is better displayed in the GUI version 05:19:38 how hurt they are and stuff 05:19:52 especially when you are seeing multiple monsters 05:22:11 Some day, we will get a tiles set made up of letters. 05:22:12 it's doable 05:22:49 unfortunately you can't do this as nethack has that already 05:23:15 * dpeg gives a t-shirt and a kitchen sink. 05:23:17 to bhaak 05:23:33 what's on the t-shirt? 05:27:37 I made a nethack fork and all I got was this lousy T-shirt. 05:27:37 galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 05:27:42 !messages 05:27:42 (1/1) elliptic said (10h 35m 39s ago): I just got "HP: 100/187 (185)"... upon saving and reloading it turned into 100/185. This happened when I maxed a skill and the remaining exp brought fighting from 5 to 7, if that might be relevant. 05:31:09 thekdawg21 (L1 NaAK) ASSERT(num_visits == 0 && levels_seen == 0 || num_visits > 0 && levels_seen > 0) in 'place-info.cc' at line 43 failed. (D:1) 05:31:17 thekdawg21 (L1 NaAK) ASSERT(num_visits == 0 && levels_seen == 0 || num_visits > 0 && levels_seen > 0) in 'place-info.cc' at line 43 failed. (D:1) 05:31:30 we will get more of these 05:31:35 :-) 05:32:28 elliptic's problem is probably my fault. I guess some function needs to be called when fighting gets trained. 05:43:55 -!- Danei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:45:31 kilobyte: calc_hp() is called whenever fighting is trained. 05:46:19 -!- Danei has joined ##crawl-dev 05:51:49 -!- galefury has joined ##crawl-dev 05:51:51 dpeg: sure... there will hopefully be more updates soon, now that I've got internet access at home again 05:52:01 edlothiol: <3 05:52:34 self-assembling Abominations (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4601) by KiloByte 05:52:56 hi 05:53:41 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:54:07 kilobyte: <3 !!! Also, that implementable is wonderfully written. 05:56:33 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:57:29 !lm thekdawg21 type=crash -log 05:57:29 2. thekdawg21, XL1 NaAK, T:16 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/thekdawg21/crash-thekdawg21-20110923-103116.txt 05:57:53 !lm thekdawg21 type=crash x=cv 05:57:53 2. [2011-09-23] [cv=0.9-a] thekdawg21 the Skirmisher (L1 NaAK) ASSERT(num visits == 0 && levels seen == 0 || num visits > 0 && levels seen > 0) in 'place-info.cc' at line 43 failed on turn 16. (D:1) 05:58:13 I think I know what's causing these crashes... I just don't know how to fix it (in the short term) 05:58:15 !lg * s=cv 05:58:25 1284414 games for *: 227790x 0.5, 179435x 0.7, 144565x 0.4, 142755x 0.8, 105430x 0.6, 101624x 0.8-a, 91465x 0.9-a, 84396x 0.3, 42390x 0.2, 37709x 0.6-a, 36719x 0.7-a, 26469x 0.9, 23171x 0.10-a, 17864x 0.1, 13400x 0.5-a, 9231x 0.4-a, 1x 05:58:46 start a new AK in tiles, leave the abyss and terminate crawl with SIGHUP during the more prompt 05:58:51 edlothiol: are webtiles games reported as 0.9-a? 05:59:30 hmm... it seems so? 05:59:57 should be 0.9 final... it's probably in Napkin's land though 06:00:34 I don't really know how the version is decided, but it should be 0.9.1 06:00:49 pardon? 06:01:17 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 06:01:19 no, webtiles games should be reported as they should be 06:01:26 Napkin: do you happen to know where the "cv" field comes from? It's not in Crawl proper. 06:01:57 it has to be - there is no patching done on my end 06:04:07 doesn't cv come from henzell? 06:04:10 might be done after sucking the logfile in 06:05:06 v=0.9.0:lv=0.1:tiles=1:name=SKRen:race=De.. <- that's what a tiles game has 06:05:12 in logfile & milestone 06:05:30 yeah, v has the version not branch, that's ok 06:05:38 v=0.10-a0:lv=0.1:name=kumiokru:race=Tr.. <- trunk via dgl 06:05:47 full line: 06:05:48 v=0.9.0:lv=0.1:tiles=1:name=Margery:race=Spriggan:cls=Berserker:char=SpBe:xl=14:sk=Dodging:sklev=17:title=Spry:place=D::14:br=D:lvl=14:absdepth=14:ltyp=D:hp=-35:mhp=74:mmhp=74:str=17:int=9:dex=19:god=Trog:start=20110823045459S:dur=11050:turn=26636:kills=769:fifteenskills=Slings,Dodging:gold=1173:goldfound=1153:goldspent=0:fruit=28160:sc=50512:ktyp=beam:killer=a dragon:dam=45:sdam=45:tdam=45:kaux=blast of flame:piety=159:end=20110823105220S:map=minma 06:06:08 not seeing cv 06:06:26 so it's Henzell's fault 06:20:18 sure, blame the bot :( 06:20:22 bots don't get any respect :P 06:28:05 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:32:30 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 06:34:13 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:41:00 -!- syraine has joined ##crawl-dev 06:41:11 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:41:19 Hello? Question! :) 06:41:30 How long do you think it will be until the Demigod changes occur? I hunted around for an answer, could not find one. 06:44:24 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:46:11 ask mumra, he's the one coding it 06:48:48 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 06:49:50 The skill screen is noticeably less cluttered than last week(ish), which is nice. 06:50:36 hell yeah 06:50:39 OTOH it's not immediately clear what the highlighting (with the star) does for a skill (it's focus mode).. not sure if it's too bad though. 06:50:55 I'm a bit surprised that there's foucs in auto mode, I don't think that was the case before? 06:51:21 Mm, that was something I was noticing. 06:51:55 I preferred it, although this is clearly only my opinion, when the focus option was on the bottom-right. It saved an additional key-press, and I don't micromanage my skills in a gradated way. 06:52:04 =) 06:52:20 focus was always in auto mode 06:52:35 but (as with manual) only if you were in focus mode 06:52:43 Ah, I see. 06:52:45 and oh yes, the skill screen is so much better now 06:52:53 It is! 06:53:02 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 06:53:19 But I suppose auto mode was more like, 'what you automatically have in the starting setting' 06:53:36 More so than what is actually referred to as auto mode itself, right? 06:53:43 syraine: mumra has just asked for help on the DG forum thread. If you want to push demigods a little, read up there and take part. 06:53:56 Dpeg: I'd love to. Thank you. 06:54:11 The difference between auto and manual is also lost to me really.. I see that the training percentages change when I switch mode, but isn't "auto" the same as having all skills on, and "manual" when I turn some of them off? :) <-- naive user 06:54:27 Oh, by the way, I'm setting up another major text patch. I remember that the other one was a bit large, so this time I wanted to give a head's up. 06:54:28 Keskitalo: did you read the help screen? 06:54:28 (I haven't followed the discussion at all really) 06:54:30 @dpeg 06:54:47 syraine: speech or descriptions or quotes? 06:54:57 dpeg: godspeak.txt 06:55:11 dpeg: "But I shouldn't have to!" 06:55:17 syraine: as far as I understand it, the basic code is all there and what is needed now is content (god speech, minion definitions). 06:55:22 additional wrath lines, clear Xom lines to show whether it's a minor miscast or not 06:55:41 Keskitalo: no way. If you have a question, m? should clear it up. Afterwards you can complain. 06:55:52 syraine: cool. Upload, I will read it. 06:56:20 dpeg, that's right. I was just reading the commentary that you made when the patch was pushed recently after I stumbled across it, and you mentioned that it was so large it had to be pushed into the next version because of the fact that there has to be at least a few errors in it. 06:56:32 Since you are probably David Ploog, right! 06:56:34 I'm thinking from usability design point of view, I don't think I should need to read help to figure out the modes. (I'm trying to think how to improve this, I'm not just complaining) 06:56:38 syraine: yes 06:57:03 Okay, I was worried I was talking to a completely different person. That would be embarassing. :) 06:57:12 Keskitalo: I disagree. You cannot expect that everything is clear at a glance. Besides, manual and auto do what they claim to do. 06:57:19 Keskitalo: dpeg is talking about in-game help, not manual. The skills screen has a lot of information density. It's impossible to add explanations to it. 06:57:19 The mode names could perhaps be better. 06:57:25 perhaps, yes 06:57:50 passive vs active would be misleading too, though 06:58:16 I agree with Keskitalo, respectfully. It is my thought that although there is a limited amount of space on the console, that some effort could be made to use the existing space effectively enough to translate the relative strengths of each mode without using additional seconds. 06:58:41 syraine: and more specifically, how? 06:58:46 The one-liner explanation, when you switch modes, is pretty good, I really think we should be able to explain the system within it. 06:58:50 Since I don't know how to do that, that's my only input. I'll think about that, galehar. 06:58:56 I actually will, since I was noticing this lately during play. 06:59:03 We have just created that space. 06:59:19 I complimented before, how the screen looks much nicer now. 06:59:28 I agree, it's much better! 06:59:29 The m?? help screen is good too, btw. 06:59:46 Anyway, I am afraid I have to go to mumra's Demigod discussion, although this is also important... I'll be back. 06:59:48 yes, everybody should be happy, only that we'll get complaints about how we suppress information :) 07:00:07 speaking of the skill screen look, there are a proposal to adjust some colours: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4399 07:00:11 I think the oneliners should be the same as in the help page: "Automatic: Skills are trained as you use them." "Manual: Experience is spread evenly across all activated skills." 07:00:23 Oh, I like that. 07:00:36 Hi, there. Is the source for the ssh/telnet server program part of the git repository? 07:00:52 Keskitalo: sounds good 07:01:00 I think my confusion came from the manual mode onliner: "the skills you have selected are trained". This is sure the case for auto mode too, if you turn some skills off? 07:01:29 Keskitalo: oneliners were written by me, help page by dpeg. Obviously, one can't be good at writing both code and documentation :P 07:01:34 hehe :) 07:01:47 Keskitalo: ah, emphasis missing. "only the skills you have selected are trained" 07:01:59 Dpeg, do you have a URL for the Demigod discussion? I can't find it in the Coding or Game Design sections of the Tavern. T_T 07:02:09 galehar: I generally agree but of course there are gods among us mortals. One is greensnark. 07:02:12 dpeg: No, it's still problematic, since you can deselect skills in auto mode. 07:02:40 syraine: sorry, cannot paste urls, don't ask. Go to tavern active topics page. "Demigods and feedback" by mumra is one page one. 07:02:49 How about "per use" and "spread evenly" for mode names? Or "use"/"evenly" or "use"/"spread"? 07:02:52 I'll go with Keskitalo's suggestion and use dpeg's phrasing for the oneliner help. 07:02:54 Thank you, I wasn't aware of that feature. 07:04:12 Gotta pick up son, see you later. 07:04:14 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:05:23 galehar: Sounds good! 07:05:30 Sorry if I came across as complaining. 07:05:39 it's fine :p 07:05:50 I'll try to think up some ideas for the mode names.. those above are probably not that good. 07:06:08 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 07:07:09 be aware that I'm about to bring further distinction between the 2 modes. When I replaced the L0 dance by skill restrictions, unknown skills will be enabled by default in auto, and disabled in manual. 07:07:31 Ok. 07:08:00 Very impressive btw getting rid of victory dancing. :P 07:08:21 its awesome how quickly i got used to that, yes 07:08:27 i sure wouldnt want to go back 07:10:27 I wonder if Linley's heard about it, as it was one of the things he'd have worked on next if he hadn't moved on. 07:12:07 I read a recent interview of his. 07:12:28 He's working on shooting games, and seems happy at the popularity of Crawl right now. He didn't seem like he'd played lately! 07:12:49 i should probably try his lated shmup 07:12:58 some of his stuff is really fun 07:13:12 syraine: Was it the Quote Unquote interview? 07:13:26 http://quote-un-quote.tumblr.com/post/2178789666/interview-with-shmup-legend-linley-henzell 07:13:43 Keskitalo, I think so? 07:13:46 Can anyone add that to the wiki press page btw? :) 07:13:59 That seems less recent than I recall, however. But yeah! Someone someone. 07:14:01 cant you? 07:14:05 ...-looks around- 07:14:07 Anyone? 07:14:08 :P 07:14:12 I'll do it. -.- 07:14:16 Thanks! 07:14:32 galefury: I don't have my login credentials on this machine. 07:15:06 I've played Angry Moth (what he has released so far) quite a bit, it's good, I'm really looking forward to it. 07:15:27 cool, i think that was the one i wanted to try 07:17:05 Not everyone is fond of the rotating viewpoint though, but I think it's very fitting for the game. 07:17:15 hm, on the screenshot it looks kind of like an arena shooter 07:17:18 i hate those so much 07:17:44 but i guess ill see it when i try it 07:20:33 It's a lot like that, but it's also Freespace/TIE Fighter style space sim/shooter in 2D. 07:22:29 Keskitalo: done - 07:24:32 Thanks again! 07:26:39 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:26:50 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:26:54 S'kay! 07:27:02 Did you see the fountain mimic death on ##crawl? 07:27:03 :) 07:35:26 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:36:38 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:49:33 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 07:51:45 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 07:55:22 clearly we need to add 'angry moth' to the moth of wrath description 07:56:12 also there needs to be a garden of coloured lights vault :) 08:01:28 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:06:33 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 08:22:44 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:23:01 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:25:27 syraine: a mimic kill during the orb run:P 08:26:04 galehar: unfortunate about that Tormentor. And Slow Healing 3 08:26:07 :3 08:26:31 haven't been able to watch it (can't access fooTV from here) 08:26:55 Oh, he essentially got mutated by an orb of fire from slow healing 2 to 3 08:27:02 and on one of the D:-levels, found a tormentor 08:27:07 the tormentor dropped him to 6 HP 08:27:29 and he I think CBlinked repeatedly, but one of them landed him next a fountain. The fountain then, um, killed him. 08:27:36 Awkward. :) 08:31:00 hi syraine 08:31:20 just caught up; my internet has been down since last night :(# 08:32:20 mumra, hey 08:32:27 Whatever help you need, ask me. :) 08:33:06 This is something I'm particularly interested in. I've done work with C++ and understand lua; in terms of DCSS I've pushed a relatively large patch for monspeech in March. 08:33:28 cool; well, if you've been working on speech files already, you're familiar with the format 08:33:44 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:33:47 I also have a godspeak patch to make Xom lines more informative as to the level of damage they're doing prepared, it'll probably be done by the 26th? 08:33:52 everything for the demigods is coming from the same text file format 08:34:12 It's about two or three thousand words, but I'm putting in um, about 1,000 from that. Okay, can I get a copy? 08:34:45 i just linked to the two files on that tavern thread 08:34:50 Thanks! 08:35:20 What are your thoughts on the other suggestion for demigods? 08:35:30 the abstract_worshippers proposal I think 08:35:38 making them flavored 08:35:59 I support it simply because it gives rise to the idea of atheistic piety, like monks have. 08:36:07 slow healing 3? That's cruel... 08:36:21 It is. What makes it worse was that it was a spectacular win. 08:36:25 Level 23 DrAE 08:36:30 synraine: which bits do you mean exactly? there are a lot of parts to the proposal - i'm just focusing on the minions 08:36:54 um, in respect to giving them powers relative to defeated minions 08:36:56 or whatever 08:36:58 -shrug- 08:37:04 like, having non-item rewards 08:37:12 that was what I posited on Tavern: having summoning rewards 08:37:23 one thing that isn't supported right now in any great amount is permanent allies 08:37:44 syraine: there seemed to be opposition to ideas about giving them powers in general 08:37:54 why is that? 08:38:03 they're already quite powerful 08:38:33 They were already quite powerful. This is more to make them interesting. The stat gain thing isn't that spectacular, really. 08:38:48 i replied on that thread about the permanent allies; i don't think it's a good idea, it changes the theme - you're supposed to be fighting against the gods, not directly receiving gifts from them ;) 08:38:52 You could just neutralize their HP gain, drop it to a lower level, make them spiritualistic 08:39:08 Mmkay. 08:39:09 the suggestion was for xom though, he could sometimes make an exception 08:39:16 just to make things more amusing for himself 08:39:21 Yes. That was it. 08:39:40 I also love chaos spawn, and they're impossible to get as allies iirc 08:39:56 There are no pets in the game, really. 08:40:17 true; it's also a case of whether permanent allies are just a bit too good. i don't have a particular opinion on it, you'd have to get dpeg's reply on that. 08:40:23 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 08:40:23 No individual creature that you can deck out. And summoning without spells is hellishly fun. 08:40:28 aha 08:40:31 Demigods are being discussed? 08:40:35 Yes. 08:40:44 syraine: They should not get "divine" powers. 08:40:48 yes and your name was mentioned seconds before you joined ;) 08:40:53 The only source of permanent allies that is non-god is the bottle. 08:41:11 syraine: not true; twisted resurrection 08:41:12 mumra: where did you get the summon dpeg invocation? 08:41:19 Although I despise micromanagement, I support a single ally that remains with the player. Oh, apart from that. 08:41:21 syraine: the plan is to not have the species influence playing style at all. 08:41:21 How silly. 08:41:29 galehar: i found it in this book that was lying on the ground 08:41:43 dpeg, I don't understand you. galehar, you're funny xP 08:41:57 So, you mean not even as much as being a Troll or Spriggan? 08:42:17 So far, demigods are focused toward hybrid gameplay, using spells with melee combat. 08:43:15 Their aptitudes are poor, but their high MP reservoir and great strength and intelligence lean them to offensive conjurations in heavy armour. 08:43:29 At least, this is what I understand from mikee_ :\ I don't play them. 08:43:39 syraine: powers like smiting, allies etc. are often proposed but I am convinced that would damage a working species. 08:43:39 The proposal is very mild: You get the abstract followers for flavour and the minions for fun and loot. 08:43:39 If you give DG innate abilities, that influences playing style. Demigods are free, they don't need that. 08:43:51 Okay. 08:43:54 No, I like that. 08:43:56 Demigods are free. 08:44:04 syraine: I don't think you can call the aptitudes poor. 08:44:26 hmm 08:44:37 before I answer, I'll check the numbers on -1 apts 08:44:41 their apts are good, yeah (which is what makes them good hybrids) 08:44:50 It may be that further gameplay effecrs arise (beyond loot from minions) but I'd advise to go the small (in gameplay, not coding terms) step first. 08:45:03 dpeg: animated sausage? Sounds deadly. 08:45:19 galehar: I thought you'd like an animated egg :) 08:45:22 19 percent reduction to base aptitude doesn't seem bad 08:45:29 What I mean more is their lack of specialization 08:45:59 It makes them inferior in terms of playing the usual types of hybrid than, let's say, Merfolk, as I comprehend it. 08:46:05 syraine: What demigods are getting right now, with God's and mumra's help, is flavour. 08:46:49 dpeg: I was answering your statement on aptitudes, not suggesting rebalancing DG. :3 08:46:59 DG are widely considered powerful and boring, mm...? 08:47:41 I was sort of saying, thinking you were telling me the focus was to homogenize them, that each race has its own playstyle. 08:48:03 regarding hybrids, any thoughts on bringing back reavers? 08:48:12 IE is pretty much a reaver now 08:48:13 syraine: I don't think that is true. Many species have, but some are versatile. 08:48:21 as in melee + conjurations 08:48:34 galefury: could we have school focus? 08:48:42 if IE is pretty much a reaver then there's no need to bring back reavers :P 08:48:44 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:48:51 mhh, but IE doesnt start with a weapon 08:49:11 What about the class removal idea? 08:49:13 and youre not told it works great as a hybrid 08:49:20 Replacing them with modules. I don't know. 08:49:22 why would anyone want to remove classes? 08:49:40 Oh, the idea is to give specific modules to choose from 08:49:40 they work, and starting a game of crawl is complicated enough already 08:49:59 why? 08:50:07 So you can make your own class 08:50:14 For instance, polearms/ice magic 08:50:18 (= 08:50:18 i tried TOME the other day after i saw people discussing it here; it was horrible - had to fight my way through dozens of options just to start a game 08:50:23 it would be so much work, and you havent mentioned any reasons why it would be better than classes 08:50:38 It doesn't have to be the only option. 08:50:42 syraine: gotta pick up the other kid in a moment. Are you familiar with the DG wiki page? 08:50:42 well it can pick one up on d:1 and do just fine 08:50:44 The proposal suggests replacing it. 08:50:48 But it could just be a custom thing. 08:51:03 Dpeg, yes, when I went into firefox to look at mumra's thread I had it as the first result 08:51:35 it sounds like a balancing nightmare, and people can customize ingame anyway 08:52:00 -shrug- 08:52:02 It's not my idea 08:52:07 if custom classes are optimal, people are forced to go through more menus to start a game 08:52:11 customizing in-game is the best kind of customization that exists 08:52:18 I agree! 08:52:20 if regular classes are always better, whats the point in having custom ones? 08:52:25 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:52:25 In a lethal game like Crawl startup should be real quick. Some devs have invested effort into cutting starting choices. We don't want to know gender, age, psychological traumata and preferred soda of our characters; two choices and you're in the dungeon. 08:52:26 -!- ais523 has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:52:28 -!- ais523_ is now known as ais523 08:52:38 adding more customization outside the game (worse yet, before you can ever get started) is a bad idea 08:52:44 Yeah, I remember they did that with Artificers 08:52:50 It does appeal to a certain demographic 08:52:58 Having the capacity to choose some obscure playstyle 08:53:08 and wizards, conjurers, chaos knights... 08:53:09 Dwarf Fortress. :P 08:53:21 dpeg: that was my problem with TOME; after my first death, i really couldn't be bothered to start another game :) 08:53:32 go down that road and you end up with a startup process that's a whole minigame in itself 08:53:37 mumra, describe TOME? 08:53:44 why was the starting so difficult 08:53:54 because of a huge amount of options 08:53:59 mumra: ADOM suffers from the same. Those silly games with their RPG background. As I see it, role-playing should come from in-game decisions, not from the backstory rubbish. 08:54:08 03kilobyte * rc6a4ac64c9bd 10/crawl-ref/source/hiscores.cc: Fix a couple of format errors. 08:54:11 Zaba, my only real thought is that you should be able to satisfy people who do want to have 1.9 Conj and 2.3 Fire 08:54:17 or... yeah, whatever 08:54:18 03kilobyte * r13d83069c3ae 10/crawl-ref/source/Makefile: Don't disable _FORTIFY_SOURCE. 08:54:22 syraine, no, I think that's horrible 08:54:26 syraine: not worth it, trust us. 08:54:35 okay 08:54:37 -laughter- 08:54:42 syraine: Crawl has its focus somewhere else. 08:54:55 syraine: you can just start a DG and train your Conj and Fire up to those values 08:54:56 It's not me, and I know that its focus isn't there. 08:55:05 Anyone would object if I move that idea to "won't do"? 08:55:08 mumra, I don't care about having that. :P 08:56:21 We would presumably not even take it if we got a working patch, so best to be honest about it. 08:56:49 you can always start-scum a wanderer if you want such exact stats that badly :p 08:57:06 kilobyte: !lg xenene drwn s=xl 08:57:08 -.- 08:57:18 if you use that in ##crawl, it's frightening 08:57:19 kilobyte: I wondered if we should make Wanderer reroll exactly the same character until you reach XL 7 or so :) 08:57:38 syraine: drac rolling? 08:57:50 dpeg: 987 times 08:57:54 13 to go! 08:58:03 :P 08:58:05 dpeg: <3 08:58:27 Mainly because of very simple things 08:58:53 I would imagine. 08:58:57 Probably people scum for crossbows. 08:59:07 kilobyte: the idea is slightly serious... it would make Wn completely different, of course. Players will hate it, that is why I never mentioned it before. 09:00:19 dpeg: you could just replace Wanderer's whole ridiculous equipment/stat rolling system with gold and a potion of experience x) 09:00:38 rename them to Tourist 09:00:39 best idea. 09:00:41 syraine: Wanderers have been reworked once, I think. 09:00:56 * dpeg warn syraine. There are things you don't crack jokes about. 09:01:04 -laughter- 09:02:03 i support Tourists 09:02:07 mm, but that is a bit of a problem. you can start with weapons that are much more powerful than others; anything from a club to a crossbow 09:02:27 i mention crossbows because with 0 skill you can still kill most things from D:1-6 with a few bolts 09:02:39 I wouldn't mind removing wanderers, but before that, we can go the XL 7 route. 09:02:52 they also have a low mulch rate. other ones are quarterstaves after the buff and falchions or sabres with good enchantments 09:03:03 dpeg: If you did something like that I would keep the level at 2 or 3, to enforce trying it out a little bit but not penalizing players who, well, can't make it to level 7 easily. 09:03:23 jle: each new version increases the level requirement by one! 09:03:31 dpeg: if you set a fixed xl, anticipate hu/ko/ha being the most chosen wns 09:04:06 because you can definitely get a Kobold to XL7 in about four minutes 09:04:09 From a design point of view, wanderers are an abomination and should be scrapped. 09:04:16 absolutely 09:04:33 but i like the camera they have in inventory 09:04:35 T_T 09:04:54 How about letting wanderers pick one skill to be guaranteed to have, and randomize the rest? 09:04:58