00:16:42 03galehar * rb5ef7f3a0ad9 10/crawl-ref/source/debug.cc: Remove an old file added by mistake. 00:16:46 03galehar * r1200feec22ee 10/crawl-ref/source/delay.cc: Fix multidrop taking time when drop fails. 00:16:54 03galehar * r7ca268bd88af 10/crawl-ref/source/ (skill_menu.cc skill_menu.h skills2.cc skills2.h): Add a decimal to the skill level display. 00:16:55 03galehar * racf7e632636a 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Abyss morphing pushes items instead of destroying them. 00:16:55 03galehar * r85d72dcdce1c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (skill_menu.cc skills.cc skills.h): Revert "Hide training percentage for unknown skills." 00:16:55 03galehar * r59ad0cbf5789 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Remove an assert. 00:24:09 galehar: could you push the update button? it looks like CDO got updated to the broken version right before you pushed those commits 00:26:25 I think galehar is unhere or on the other side of the split 00:26:35 elliptic: if it is needed i can do it 00:26:57 oh right, I realized gretell was on the other side of the split but not galehar 00:27:04 hah 00:27:10 due: that would be great, thanks :) 00:27:16 okay, let me find my laptop 00:27:40 oh, sorry, it looks like it got updated again now 00:28:00 he must have done it 00:30:56 Yeah 00:31:08 It said it was up-to-date :) 00:33:36 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:46:28 -!- |amethyst has joined ##crawl-dev 00:48:25 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 00:55:34 hm, I just watched the rotting bug happen 00:56:02 I was resting off poison... definitely no rot source in sight... and I rotted one HP without a message 00:56:19 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:10:24 !tell galehar Currently calc_hp() only gets called when you raise fighting to a new integer part, but your HP can change from fighting increases at any time... this causes trouble with characters training fighting appearing to have a point of rot at times for no reason 01:10:25 elliptic: OK, I'll let galehar know. 01:31:05 -!- Galefury has joined ##crawl-dev 01:33:03 hi 02:08:15 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:10:14 hi 02:10:14 galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 02:10:18 !messages 02:10:18 (1/1) elliptic said (59m 53s ago): Currently calc_hp() only gets called when you raise fighting to a new integer part, but your HP can change from fighting increases at any time... this causes trouble with characters training fighting appearing to have a point of rot at times for no reason 02:11:40 probably the correct thing is just to call calc_hp() whenever fighting is trained at all, but I thought I would let you handle it :) 02:12:00 I suppose there could also be issues with mp, I didn't look at that 02:12:52 I wonder what happens if I use elyvilon's restoration when I have fake-rotted P 02:12:53 HP* 02:15:41 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:43:38 elliptic: I'm moving the calc_hp and calc_mp calls from _change_skill_level to _train (and the bits about redrawing some stats) 02:45:30 elliptic: I'm also removing the 25 starting XP, since it creates a very slight randomization of starting skills. 02:45:55 fuzzing should compensate 02:49:28 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 02:49:28 -!- jle has joined ##crawl-dev 02:49:28 -!- Eifeltrampel has joined ##crawl-dev 02:49:28 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 02:49:28 -!- rax has joined ##crawl-dev 02:49:28 -!- Chousuke has joined ##crawl-dev 02:50:32 elliptic: as we talked yesterday, I'm seriously considering the replacement of the L0 skill dance by some restrictions to training. 02:50:50 obvious ones are armour, shields and magic schools 02:51:25 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 02:51:25 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 02:51:25 -!- R18 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:51:25 -!- Fyren has joined ##crawl-dev 02:51:25 -!- joosa has joined ##crawl-dev 02:51:25 -!- ghallberg has joined ##crawl-dev 02:51:25 -!- krel has joined ##crawl-dev 02:51:37 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 02:51:37 -!- varmin has joined ##crawl-dev 02:51:37 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 02:51:37 -!- SamB has joined ##crawl-dev 02:51:58 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:52:13 -!- greensnark has joined ##crawl-dev 02:52:13 -!- Adeon has joined ##crawl-dev 02:52:13 -!- rawrmage has joined ##crawl-dev 02:52:13 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 02:52:34 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 02:52:44 you said it'd be better to go light on that. So I guess you should be able to master armour in leather, shields with a buckler and air with shock memorized. 02:53:45 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 02:53:50 still pondering the pertinence of restricting weapons, throwing and stabbing to carrying an appropriate weapon 02:54:12 Global Notice] Sorry for the outage there, it seems one of our hubs had some issue. We've re-routed around it for now. 02:54:23 galehar: Seems like a pointless restriction, one inv slot is meh. 02:54:45 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 02:54:45 -!- jarpiain has joined ##crawl-dev 02:56:08 it's not like someone would bother training a weapon skill if he is not actually using a weapon of the same type. This is more for consistency than really a gameplay affecting restriction. 02:57:06 galehar: I still sort of feel like it might be best to allow unrestricted training of skills once they reach 1 02:57:53 galehar: and it isn't just consistency, it also affects which skills are visible in the skill screen... IMO carrying does a good job for this for weapons 02:59:06 if you are carrying an axe around, axes skill can be visible and selectable even if it is at 0... but if you drop that axe without raising the skill to 0, the skill should disappear again on the screen 03:00:29 fine 03:00:41 why lose the restriction past level 1? 03:01:14 there are a few skills that don't require anything to use currently... dodging, T&D, stabbing, unarmed... few enough that I think that showing them for everyone is okay 03:01:17 ummmm 03:01:23 it seems like i just gained just about every skill? 03:01:43 galefury: is this CAO? 03:01:51 mhh no 03:01:54 also it wasnt just 03:01:55 I just fixed that this morning 03:02:02 i only just saw a weird skill gain message 03:02:06 its the latest tiles build 03:02:15 last commit is "revert something" 03:02:17 or something 03:02:52 anyway, axes and tloc are the only skills im still missing 03:03:34 ah, last commit is "remove and assert" 03:03:37 Galefury: yeah, this build has a stupid bug 03:03:46 any other problems? 03:03:55 other than gaining all skills? 03:03:59 no wait 03:04:18 0.10-a0-801-g59ad0cb? 03:04:42 795-gd7df244 03:05:01 so yeah, this one has a few bug 03:05:21 ah 03:05:37 usually the commit.txt has only the stuff in the build 03:05:50 looks like this time thats not the case :/ 03:05:52 and the last commit from this one is "Fix diagonal monster attacks causing crashes.", not remove an assert 03:06:04 yeah, i generally just go by commit.txt 03:06:07 because that usually works 03:06:16 changes.txt 03:06:24 galehar: actually maybe keeping the restriction always is good... I think I changed my mind again :) 03:06:36 good :) 03:06:49 so, anything major, or can i keep playing and just not report the stuff i see? 03:07:38 so long as the restrictions are mild (the idea should be that you can train a skill if there is any possibility of exercising it, more or less), I think it should be fine 03:07:41 well having disabled skills train can be pretty annoying 03:07:52 oh, all disabled skills train? 03:07:59 I think so 03:08:14 but it only happens in manual mode. So you'd bette switch to auto 03:08:19 ah 03:09:05 seems like I pushed the fix right in the middle of the windows builds upgrade, because tiles and console are 795, and installer is 801 03:09:19 hence the misleading commit.txt 03:10:44 ew, installer 03:11:04 hmm 03:11:14 i think when i rather play a bugged build than use the installer something is wrong 03:11:36 galehar: so melee weapon skills = carrying a weapon, throwing = carrying a throwable (should include stuff like clubs and daggers... anything that quivers itself), ranged weapon skills = carrying a launcher + matching ammo, magic schools = have a spell memorized of that school 03:11:37 is putting saves in weird places with the installer really necessary? 03:11:58 talking about things something might be wrong with: the cold retaliation facet seems very powerful 03:12:03 early on 03:12:14 of course its a tier 3 mutation 03:12:18 what does that leave? spellcasting might be special because of the minigame with gaining it from scrolls 03:12:22 so might be fine that it annihilates early stuff 03:12:24 but may be not 03:13:10 elliptic: I think spellcasting should be free to train. I'll leave the scroll mechanism, it will be useful for newbies in auto mode. 03:13:13 I'd tend to say no restriction on spellcasting ever after you gain it from scrolls (there are always more scrolls :P) 03:14:01 for evocations, need to be carrying at least one evocable of any type 03:14:21 for invocations, need to have a god power that uses invocations 03:14:48 sounds good 03:15:07 for armour, need something with an EV penalty (or does stuff like steam dragon armour exercise armour currently?) 03:15:10 Throwing is problematic 03:15:14 RichardHawk: why? 03:15:19 You can run out of throwables midfight 03:15:35 hm, that's a good point 03:15:37 And can't pick them up until killing more things 03:16:07 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:16:18 if you have five darts and throw them all to weaken a monster and then kill it with melee, then you wouldn't be training throwing any more for the xp from the kill 03:16:50 that's not good indeed, so maybe should just keep throwing trainable always so that people aren't just carrying around an extra stone or dagger to avoid this 03:17:05 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:17:08 and for ranged combat, don't insist people are carrying ammo... just a launcher 03:17:10 I don't think steam dragon armour trains armour. Need an EVP to do so. 03:17:16 okay 03:17:48 so is that planned for all training or just for level 1? 03:17:55 all training 03:18:00 it seems pretty pointless 03:18:01 so unarmed, throwing, dodging, stealth, stabbing, spellcasting(?) can always be trained 03:18:05 i mean, whats the gain? 03:18:17 But yeah, I don't see the point of these restrictions 03:18:23 galefury: the main motivation is to eliminate the current way of gaining skills 03:18:35 you have to dance for a while and then kill stuff for a while 03:18:44 yeah, its weird and inconsistent 03:18:53 Can you leave manual mode alone at least 03:19:00 without cluttering the skill screen with all skills when most of them cannot be used 03:19:01 well, the gain is avoiding this 03:19:27 Galefury: how is it inconsistent? 03:19:45 level 0 skills cant be switched on and off, level 1 skills can 03:19:54 if you find your first ice spell and memorize it, you should be able to turn on ice skill immediately instead of dancing and then waiting first 03:20:00 galefury: the point is to change that 03:20:18 so you would be able to turn level 0 skills on and off if they are trainable 03:20:23 yeah i know, i was saying the current way of gaining skills is weird and inconsistent 03:20:34 right, and we are trying to fix that :) 03:21:13 i just dont know what the gain from restricting training is for level 1 onwards 03:21:43 consistency i guess 03:22:04 consistency mainly, and also to avoid a few weird things like putting on a large shield until you get level 1 in shields and then taking it off for 20000 turns while you train shield skill up 03:22:34 (this can make sense currently on characters who can't wear or can't find a buckler) 03:22:41 well, you could still train it if you lug it around in inventory, right? 03:23:01 no, for shield and armour we are actually insisting people are wearing the right stuff 03:23:09 ah 03:24:11 oh, I forgot fighting in my list of skills that should always be trainable 03:24:22 also T&D 03:24:55 so this looks very much like my initial proposal :P https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:skills:training 03:25:17 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 03:26:01 elliptic: what is the point of the tweak to early weapon generation? To help fighters find an upgrade to their starting weapon? 03:27:30 galehar: a slight buff to melee chars, yeah... but mainly I was unhappy with staves generation and adding an extra tier seemed like a reasonable place to generate some quarterstaves 03:28:11 since new quarterstaff is too good to give out so often on D:1 03:29:33 previously the only options were to make weapon subtypes ridiculously common starting at D:1 or make them very rare until mid:D 03:29:40 wight tile (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4585) by Denzi 03:34:20 -!- ldierk_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:50:20 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:53:17 how do you feel about identifying rings of ice and fire on wield for people who know spells of the corresponding school? 03:53:40 *wearing 03:56:05 seems like a good idea. A bit like how we deal with staves I think. 04:09:44 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 04:21:53 what about stasis if you know blink or cblink? 04:24:39 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 04:32:50 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 04:32:54 same 04:33:03 the hard part is finding a good message :P 04:33:06 hi dpeg! 04:34:37 Hi there! Here I come to deliver glad tidings. 04:34:47 having all such auto-id rules centralized in one place would be nice 04:35:03 galehar: h - an amulet of stasis (worn) 04:35:30 other places don't have anything more too 04:36:28 kilobyte: but some players might be confused as to why some items are auto identified sometimes but not always. 04:36:52 dpeg: please do tell 04:38:18 Lugonu is about to tear up this place. Fasten your seat belts, ladies and gentlemen! Corruption, destruction and putrefaction are about to set in five minutes. Yay! 04:41:26 and this is good news? 04:41:43 someone is coding new lugonu? 04:42:52 I am afraid you're not ready for the Depraved New World. 04:43:45 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 04:47:38 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:59:10 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Destruction time!] 05:00:04 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-801-g59ad0cb 05:11:17 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 05:18:30 You extend your transformation's duration. 05:18:33 You have a feeling this form won't last long. 05:18:33 a couple of turns later: You drown... 05:19:07 just as annoying with Necromutation, too... you often turn back the very turn you recast it 05:23:36 you.increase_duration(DUR_TRANSFORMATION, random2(pow), 100); 05:23:43 I guess we can do better than that 05:24:30 all transforms last std::min(X + random2(pow) + random2(pow), 100) when initially cast, X is usually 20 05:25:17 and all other spells use the same formula for initial duration and extending 05:27:25 BH also has a single random2(pow) in its formula 05:28:42 at the very least, extension duration can be changed to 10 + random2(pow). 05:29:01 and we could get rid of the transformation_expiration_warning() function since it would be guaranteed that you go over the threshold 05:29:15 is there any reason not to use the same as initial duration? 05:29:30 afs, recast 05:29:33 Galefury: would be simplest, yeah 05:29:53 is the same + 1 turn in all situations where you dont actually need the form 05:29:56 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 05:29:59 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 05:29:59 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 05:30:02 hi 05:30:22 just considering a recast to turn you into a human then instantly back into the form 05:30:22 which is exactly what happens if you switch forms 05:30:28 * kilobyte meows at bmh. 05:30:45 do you mean literally do that on recast? 05:30:49 that would suck 05:31:02 for spider clinging and ice beast swimming especially 05:31:17 kilobyte: I won't be seeing much of you European folk in a few weeks. Even more timezone moving! I saw the abyss gripes on the tavern. 05:32:14 by the way, is it intended that you can attack submerged enemies with reaching weapons? 05:32:31 it makes sense, but is pretty abusable because they dont move away if you do this 05:32:51 some anyway, like swamp worms 05:33:11 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:36:37 Players are such whiners. 05:37:07 ? 05:37:18 i love the new abyss 05:37:38 in case its about that ^^ 05:38:16 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2581&hilit=abyss#p30096 05:44:10 well, the abyss can get very very tedious 05:44:44 having more exit vaults would certainly help 05:44:50 also, <3 new abyss 05:44:59 hooray for galehar and kilobyte 05:45:07 its a lot less annoying to navigate than the old one, and looks much prettier 05:45:21 I've been thinking of adding a hack to make the new abyss less likely to throw up walls in the direction of travel 05:45:44 why? 05:45:48 quite a pain with Chei, although all the midges provide enough piety for Slouch / Step from Time -- still sticking with double digits hp, often falling into singles though 05:45:51 its nice when it messes with you 05:46:28 apropos chei, does he slow down portal timers? 05:46:32 it was yesterday so without galehar's items fix 05:46:44 Galefury: no, sucks with Ice Cave I lost 05:46:51 maybe change that? 05:46:51 kilobyte: what are his fixes? 05:47:12 items are pushed instead of overwritten 05:47:12 still, Step from Time saved me from 34895725894 close shaves 05:47:42 oh, yes, that. 05:47:55 if you see five skeletal warriors, you walk away. Chei chars have to fight, die or cheat. 05:48:15 bmh: I don't think clearing a path in front of the player is good. If it's too annoying, I'd rather reduce the frequency of walls and pools, and/or tone down the speed. 05:48:46 it's interesting that it often traps you for several turns, spawning lava all around 05:48:49 galehar: what about an early warning system? Walls vanish into clouds, how about making them appear out of clouds? 05:48:53 galehar: what do you think about speed varying up and down (instead of just getting faster)? 05:48:57 then you're quickly freed 05:49:25 mumra: that's actually what happens, there's some fluctuation 05:49:26 kilobyte: yep. That's a terrain generation artifact rather than a design decision 05:49:30 but it's too subtle to be noticed 05:49:55 unlike old abyss, you never have to turn around, though 05:50:20 at most you have to wait a couple turns and continue going forward 05:51:05 kilobyte: regarding Chei, you've reduced acceleration, but maybe speed can be reduced too. Since morphing depends on time_taken, it's much faster with slow movement. 05:51:42 yeah, morphing is blazingly fast 05:51:49 galehar: I haven't looked at the code yet -- what goes into morph speed? 05:51:57 kilobyte: no wait, that's what you did 05:52:23 abyssal_state.depth += you.time_taken * (you.abyss_speed + 40.0) / 20000.0 05:52:40 although my trip was LOOONG, though. Burned through 8 bread rations, had to wear sustenance later on. 05:52:50 abyss_speed start at 1 and slowly increase up to 100 after thousands of turns 05:53:29 ok, so we need more exit vaults. 05:53:33 with Chei that 20000.0 is 40000.0 05:53:34 yes! 05:54:12 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 05:54:20 the code for generating the abyss uses floating point numbers for coordinates. If you spend sufficiently long in the abyss, the structure of it should become degenerate. 05:54:44 (Where sufficiently long is so long that only an XL27 mummy of doom could ever plausibly encounter it. Even then it's probably a stretch) 05:57:36 bmh: I've made many tweaks to the abyss without understanding the core of the algorithm. It could probably use some second look from someone who understand it better 05:57:53 we can reset depth after every shift to a new area 05:57:56 galehar: are there any commit IDs you'd like me to look at? 05:58:24 kilobyte: I'm supportive of that idea. The abyss gets faster and faster and faster -- then unreality tears and casts you into a new part 05:58:41 Should we alert the player on a shift? 05:58:55 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 05:58:58 bmh: the biggest problem I fixed was that the terrain_elements array was randomized on each morph. Which was the cause of major feature flipping. 05:59:26 ugh. Yeah, that's problematic. Did you end up removing doors from the allowable tileset? 05:59:48 bmh: no commit in particular. Just look at _abyss_apply_terrain and check that I didn't do anything stupid 05:59:59 k 06:00:08 yes, I did, no more doors 06:00:44 I also made maprot smoother and less agressive 06:01:31 oh great. Hitting the code that's shared with Labs? 06:02:05 hm, fuck paralysis 06:03:10 is it somehow affected by chei? 06:04:57 galehar: just glancing at a `git blame`, I don't see any changes that you've made that would lead to nastiness. 06:05:21 bmh: yes (changed maprot in lab too) 06:07:47 does shatter still work appropriately in the abyss? With shattered tiles gradually refilling 06:09:36 couldn't test it :p Got Earth from 1 to 18 during my doubled trip, but had books stashed away :p 06:10:11 I'll wizmode it 06:10:13 (an elf sorcerer camped just where I returned the first time) 06:11:37 would you be receptive to adding a new wizmode command: repeat last command? 06:11:55 or atleast for wizmode spell, repeat last spell 06:13:22 "`" 06:14:31 kilobyte: wow, you sure write code fast! 06:14:46 bmh: ... 06:14:53 it's an ancient command 06:15:34 which I now realize. 06:15:42 and it has haters because it mindlessly replays keys you pressed, often causing bugs like targetting 4,2 when you picked 2,1 the first time 06:16:24 it's great for spawning a flock of sheep 06:17:11 yeah 06:17:19 as is "&Msheep band" 06:17:20 haters gonna hate. 06:17:34 mumra: whoa! 06:18:00 any chance paralysis might be replaced by petrify in random spell lists? 06:18:01 :) 06:18:42 Galefury: you mentioned hating paralysis. Why? 06:18:56 because i just died to it ^^ 06:19:14 also because it is never fun 06:19:19 whereas petrify gives you damage reduction? 06:20:15 also some time to deal with it 06:20:15 paralyze adds very little fun to the gameplay 06:20:15 during which you are only slowed 06:20:15 you can't really counter it except for planning ahead 06:20:15 and you can't really do that when you don't expect paralyzers around (uniques, abyss) 06:20:16 well, its fine on uniques imo 06:20:23 but on stuff like ogre mages 06:20:34 petrify sounds more fun, since you have a few turns to react to it 06:20:36 which have something like 5 different spell sets, one of which has paralysis 06:20:40 random paralyze deaths are bnever fun 06:20:46 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:21:33 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:21:49 I think my stupidest death ever involved paralyze. My DEWz paralyzed some form of giant and then ran away to eat a bread ration (starving). 06:22:04 Paralyze wore off before I finished eating and I got clubbed to death. 06:22:30 right, because eating is something you dont stop doing when a giant hits you with a club 06:22:54 eating a loaf of bread is a commitment 06:23:02 you can't just quit in the middle of it 06:23:25 I didn't know. I had bought it from a shop four turns earlier and it was my only piece of food 06:28:49 eating a piece of bread takes 4 turns. A monster doesn't have the time to come up to you and melee you to death while you eat. Unless you do it right behind a corner of course. 06:29:37 The ttyrec is available. Regardless, I did it wrong. 06:29:59 Like the time I accidentally ran into a minotaur with a +6,+12 whip of drain 06:31:33 Lab all his! 06:32:59 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 06:41:31 afternoon, dpeg 06:55:14 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:01:06 is there any recent changelog for the trunk build up? 07:02:06 dunno if this got linked here already but http://www.rhizzone.net/article/2011/09/11/crawl/ 07:02:28 * due click 07:03:36 Xiberia: i dont think so, the current changelog is somewhat old 07:03:50 i see 07:03:51 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 07:04:02 and a bunch of stuff happened since it was last edited 07:04:11 the ingame one on cdo and the one on the patch tracker are too hard to read 07:04:20 for a non- developer like me 07:04:41 well, the ingame changelog in trunk should have some of the new things 07:04:45 just not the newest 07:05:17 galehar: ok to remove the 25 starting skill xp? 07:05:17 no idea if any of these are in it: new abyss, chei changes, smooth skills, new mimics 07:05:41 (makes comparing initial skills between backgrounds a bit tricky :p) 07:06:15 kilobyte: yes. I did that locally (but won't be able to push until tonight, so you can do it if you want). 07:06:15 Galefury: I updated it a couple of weeks ago 07:06:20 read the commit log :p 07:06:27 Xiberia: the wiki page gives a good idea https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:planning 07:06:35 anything that's crossed out is already in trunk 07:06:51 galehar: ok, won't commit so I don't cause conflicts 07:07:19 Ew, I should correct that. We definitely did not steal anything other than orcs and potentially elves from tolkein. 07:07:44 due: yeah, we don't even have hobbits :P 07:08:05 mumra: i'll look through that, thanks 07:08:14 galehar: thank god ;) 07:08:21 we do, under one of their alternate names 07:08:34 What about dwarves? 07:08:50 D&D somehow thought using one of Tolkien's synonyms lets them avoid copyright 07:09:02 (as if you could have copyright on old folk tales) 07:09:16 but then, a thief suspects everyone of stealing 07:14:41 ahaha the comments thread there is ironic 07:15:03 jle: well, all of these are particularly iff.y 07:15:42 The Tolkein estate is very litigious. They sued an author for using Tolkein himself as a character in historical fiction. 07:15:44 Dwarves, elves, etc, are all from a variety of mythologies; hobbit specifically is a Tolkeinism 07:15:45 (wankers) 07:15:52 as is orc, I think 07:17:46 When I suggested DD, I deliberately went back to the source. 07:18:03 dpeg: Yes, exactly. 07:18:05 And away from the fucken trope. 07:18:24 dpeg: what mythology inspired DDs? 07:20:03 bmh: norse dwarves 07:20:32 sprites, elves, dwarves, they're all very similar in origin (and the list could probably be extended) 07:20:50 A real shame at how pervasive JRR is. 07:21:16 * bmh holds his breath for selkie and trow in dcss. 07:21:57 actually 07:22:00 I would totally love selkie 07:22:30 due: how would you distinguish them from the whole zoology of merkfolk? 07:22:38 bmh: "irish"? 07:22:55 due: hm? 07:24:18 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:28:16 03kilobyte * rf05240ed176f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (ng-restr.cc ng-setup.cc): Enable FeMo, nerf them. 07:28:27 03kilobyte * r2e3edf5f5e2e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (transform.cc transform.h): Fix extending a transformation sometimes doing nothing. 07:28:27 03kilobyte * r1adce6841190 10/crawl-ref/source/transform.cc: Upon casting Dragon Form, don't call a web a net. 07:28:27 03kilobyte * r85e3305f044f 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Fix a crash with skills >= 27. Add an assert for skill_exp_needed(28). 07:28:27 03kilobyte * r369139649c15 10/crawl-ref/source/ (item_use.cc player.cc player.h transform.cc transform.h): Fix some problems with temporary uselessness of armour. 07:28:28 03kilobyte * rb39258c4f9fe 10/crawl-ref/source/transform.cc: Explain why turning into a spider doesn't disentangle you. 07:30:38 kilobyte: I believe that Fi needs some help on its own. There is a forum thread about that. We may want to nerf MD at some point. 07:30:45 What is the FeMo nerf? 07:31:15 * due nerfs everyone. 07:31:29 dpeg: MD rather badly overshadows Mi currently. 07:32:46 FeFi: Fi 2.7, UC 3.6, Dod 4.0 07:32:46 FeMo (old): Fi 2.7, UC 3.6, Dod 4.0, Sth 2.7 07:32:46 FeMo (new): Fi 1.8, UC 2.7, Dod 4.0, Sth 2.7, +20 piety 07:34:13 and Fi are already after racial special-casing to have double the UC they would have otherwise (other races get armour, shield and a weapon so bad skills are not detrimental) 07:36:49 RichardHawk: yeah, unless you go for an inferior build like a dodging MD or pick a bad weapon type, MDs do everything better 07:37:59 HO are another contender for the armoured axe-swinger niche 07:38:49 what about simply giving MDs the axe? (by the blade not handle) 07:38:55 together with halflings :p 07:42:09 -!- bmh_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:43:31 -!- bmh has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:43:33 kilobyte hates small people 07:43:35 -!- bmh_ is now known as bmh 07:44:27 galehar: I love playing spriggans, and kobolds are ok 07:44:36 would be kind of sad, they are one of the few races that are unique based on aptitudes alone 07:44:51 kilobyte: I would make them small. 07:45:07 Use the axe to half them :) 07:45:26 it's just that after many years on a Tolkien MUD I have a deeply ingrained hatred for hobbits -- and also that kobolds and halflings are nearly identical and there's no good way to differentiate them without hurting theme 07:46:07 dpeg: tried that (branch small_dwarves on git), it turns out there's no benefit 07:46:16 no AC nerf for them? 07:46:22 we could just dump halflings. 07:46:23 size factors favor small races 07:46:37 I eat hobbits for breakfast. 07:46:39 constriction will help a bit with that 07:46:48 also small armor users could be interesting 07:47:00 because small mostly favors dodging 07:47:01 halflings are just kobolds without rPos, right? 07:47:10 they have rmut and slow metabolism 07:47:16 also different apts 07:47:23 little better in fighting apts, worse in magic 07:47:30 they would lose polearm use (they don't already), gain dodge (unthematic), wouldn't lose battleaxes due to dwarf exception (theme...), and there'd be the cost of implementing two platemail sizes 07:47:35 but similar playstyles because both are small dodgers 07:48:13 bmh: kobolds don't have rPois, just are poisonous themselves. Which matters for Ignite Poison only. 07:48:27 kilobyte: ouch! 07:48:44 oh, not even that anymore 07:49:03 I never liked ignite poison. It trivializes Hive and all varieties of ant 07:49:18 Spriggan is the master race(way too good probably), Kobolds are good, Halfling...I'm not sure anyone really plays Halfling as their main race 07:49:21 spider too probably 07:49:23 once its in 07:49:33 although not quite as badly 07:50:01 why would anyone have a main race? 07:50:13 fallback race! 07:50:14 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:50:16 for when you want to win 07:50:18 because I like being able to run away from everything. 07:50:23 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 07:51:07 KoBe used to be #1 combo 07:51:21 It is okay to have good species. If we think some species is too strong, however, we nerf. 07:51:32 I think HaBe is much stronger 07:51:35 slings are boss 07:51:54 KoBe's appeal is being extremely simple to play 07:51:58 Never worry about hunger 07:52:15 what's the !lg argument for tourney0.8? 07:56:31 due: how about a selkie unique? 07:57:06 I don't think we want to overdo the paired unique thing, but something along the lines of Cagan and his wife could be interesting 08:22:41 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:25:42 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:25:42 kilobyte: I think you should have left transform.cc:697 untouched. You made sure you rolled higher than current duration, but then you roll again. 08:26:25 -!- R18 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:27:38 -!- R18 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:30:54 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:31:20 also you can't extend, but you can keep recasting in hope of rolling a higher duration. Why not use increase_duration like we do for all other buffs? 08:32:23 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:46:43 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:48:45 -!- Xiberia has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0.2/20110902133214]] 08:49:55 increase_duration increases, which is not what I want 08:50:32 you're right that recasting to get the best roll might be bad 08:52:52 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 08:53:26 why use a different logic than other self enchantments? Or would you rather change those too? 08:53:38 -!- greatzebu has left ##crawl-dev 08:53:59 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 08:59:55 I didn't want to buff it too much, but I wouldn't argue against 09:02:06 03MarvinPA * r6c08f7e0f29a 10/crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc: Don't mark manuals for skills you have maxed as useless if they're not identified 09:04:48 galehar: what about making it impossible to transfer to an useless skill (Armour for Octopodes, Felids and Draconians, Invo for Demigods, all weapon skills for Felids)? 09:05:12 or use a manual of those 09:12:22 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 09:14:52 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:18:12 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 09:20:41 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 09:22:50 kilobyte: sure 09:23:19 let me do it since I'll have to do some refactoring for restrictions 09:23:32 cool 09:25:01 elliptic: actually, you can train armour in a steam dragon armour. The check is based on armour weight, not on EVP. 09:25:12 a felid of mine used manuals for useless skills to store XP that would be lost due to the 20000 pool cap, and moved them into place with Ashenzari. That's no more. 09:27:25 galehar: yeah, that's what I was wondering... possibly should just allow training armour in anything then 09:27:26 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 09:27:32 for restrictions: most of them are just a kind of victory dancing. For weapons that is -- spells don't matter since you already needed a spell with that component to get first point 09:29:46 like, my DrTm yesterday-today realized pumping Tmut is useless with no spells so I enabled Earth (had one point due to a Tmut/Earth spell). Before I could escape Abyss I had 18 skill, with not a single useful spell (had the books stashed). 09:30:32 and then, well, Chei's int 48 + wizardry is quite shattering... 09:31:11 kilobyte: not sure what you mean about weapons? how is carrying around a long blade a kind of victory dancing? 09:31:39 isn't the restriction supposed to require wielding it? 09:31:46 not for weapons 09:32:11 ah, so it's purely a theme thing 09:33:38 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:34:18 to some extent keeping the restrictions after you gain level 1 is just a theme thing, yeah... there are a couple things we can do with it that seem reasonable (like insist that people actually be wearing a shield to train that), but the restrictions shouldn't be very large IMO 09:35:30 a large shield doesn't hamper weapon use that much yeah, you're not going to use one on a primary spellcaster 09:37:55 what about spell-based shields? 09:38:38 hm 09:39:17 I guess memorizing condensation shield or worshipping TSO with the appropriate piety could be enough too to train shield skill (if it helps with both of those... I forget) 09:40:24 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 09:40:26 if we decide that just carrying around a shield would be the simplest restriction, we can always just do that and address the weirdnesses with shield training in some other way (changing the formulas) 09:43:18 or carrying an appropriate evokable? 09:43:30 there are evokables that give shields? 09:43:38 or do you mean for evocations 09:43:50 for condensation shield, I think 09:43:59 oh, right, rod of warding has it? 09:44:16 that might have been it 09:44:25 IIRC yeah Rod of Warding does 09:44:40 yeah, that restriction might be getting a little strange now if you don't allow just carrying around a shield to work too 09:47:06 hm, currently shield skill helps with everything except for the bone plates mutation 09:51:22 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:52:08 !tell galehar My current thoughts about the restriction for shields: require carrying a (wearable) shield or a rod of warding (contains condensation shield) or having condensation shield memorized or worshipping TSO with the appropriate piety 09:52:08 elliptic: OK, I'll let galehar know. 09:52:35 bone plates trains shields skill btw, which is a little weird but probably too minor to matter 09:53:33 that is indeed weird given that shield skill doesn't appear to help bone plates at all 09:55:28 -!- Galefury has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:56:01 kilobyte: do you have any specific thoughts on how to reorganize the portal vault handling code per issue #4471? i think i'll have some time this weekend to look at it, so if you have thoughts beyond "this should be cleaned up" i would like to know ahead of time 10:02:50 !tell kilobyte do you have any specific thoughts on how to reorganize the portal vault handling code per issue 4471? i think i'll have some time this weekend to look at it, so if you have thoughts beyond "this should be cleaned up" i would like to know ahead of time 10:02:50 greatzebu: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 10:03:58 greatzebu: need another quick implementable for the weekend? :) 10:04:11 dpeg: what do you have in mind? 10:04:53 i was thinking about working on the autopickup menu proposal, but that will take a while i think 10:05:08 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:07:58 greatzebu: was joking. I think there a number of interesting implementables. 10:08:12 ...although today I'll add Elyvilon, Zin and constriction :) 10:09:04 Regarding skill restrictions from L1 on: what about manuals? Are you saying you should only be allowed to read and learn about a subject if you carry some item related to it? 10:09:22 fair enough :-) there are lots of good implementables now for sure 10:10:01 greatzebu: I've been contemplating if we should just remove Hive for 0.10 to make someone take up the Hive patch but it might be considered impolite. 10:10:14 hive kinda sucks, everyone seems to agree 10:10:58 i'd be happy to work on the code end of it, but i don't know anything about vault design so i'd need a collaborator 10:11:43 or some time to learn how to write vaults, i guess :-) 10:14:21 -!- syllogism has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:14:29 -!- cbus has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:14:29 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 10:15:01 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 10:15:01 -!- jarpiain has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:15:55 -!- cbus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:16:18 greatzebu: i had an idea for a hive vault for the new version 10:16:46 -!- jarpiain has joined ##crawl-dev 10:17:13 -!- jarpiain is now known as Guest68573 10:17:16 greatzebu: I would help with maps. 10:17:21 mumra: what is it? 10:17:30 awesome :-) 10:17:47 to be honest i am not familiar with the details of the new proposal, just with the idea that hive needs to be reformed 10:18:02 dpeg: a bunch of hexagonal rooms, each with some food, and larvae coming up from the lower rooms 10:18:04 I realised that the proposal is not as specific as others. 10:18:06 so i am not exactly sure what needs to be done 10:18:12 mumra: lower rooms? 10:18:22 greatzebu: have you read the proposal/wiki page? 10:18:22 the southern ones on the map 10:18:25 mumra: ah 10:18:27 if you start at the north 10:18:53 I am happy with some kind of race. I want that a player has stretch himself to capture almost all loot. 10:19:02 *or* each room could have some sleeping larvae so the race is more intense ... 10:19:40 !tell galehar A suggestion from ##crawl: display maxed skills as "27" rather than "27.0" 10:19:40 elliptic: OK, I'll let galehar know. 10:19:46 galehar had the egg idea, that is also goo 10:19:47 d 10:20:03 elliptic: what do you think of autooffer? 4583 10:20:15 how unusual, galehar having an idea about eggs ! 10:22:22 dpeg: not sure what I think about the idea... it might just remove a lot of interaction between player and god 10:22:43 I didn't try out the patch to see exactly how it works in it 10:22:55 i think it is pretty straightforward to let queen bees berserk their workers and to let larvae eat food and become bees 10:23:55 I think it is sort of reasonable that pleasing your god requires *some* conscious attention 10:24:14 it might mess up the design of current bee vaults outside of hive 10:24:33 so those might need to be tweaked as well 10:26:26 what is autooffer for? when you've got a bunch of corpses in an area and you want to offer them all? 10:26:36 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 10:26:54 i like the suggestion to have more kinds of bees as well, but it's probably best to tackle the basic reform before stirring things up too much 10:27:15 -!- Guest68573 is now known as jarpiain 10:27:19 more kinds of bees? 10:27:27 bee swarms ? ;) 10:27:38 don't they basically have queens, workers, larvae, and drones? 10:28:38 you're thinking of ants 10:29:14 a few specialized kinds of warriors might be nice, rather than slaughtering hundreds of generic killer bees 10:30:00 but possibly some changes to the queen will make things interesting enough that it's unnecessary 10:31:22 http://www.rhizzone.net/article/2011/09/11/crawl/ is a strange affair 10:32:41 Real life bees are far less specialised than ants. Also, I don't think new types would help so much. Berserk bees will make matters a bit more interesting, as will the race itself. 10:33:37 bee race? 10:34:09 i'm not too concerned about the realism of bee specialization, but i agree that berserking and racing may be enough to make things interesting 10:36:18 If balance was only as tight as germanjoey writes. On the other hand, selling Crawl as the "new shit" is only a little bit less ridiculous than "i thought everyone made fun of crawl and played nethack and adom instead" 10:37:18 I heard that crawl is increasing the number of stones and decreasing the number of vegetables 10:38:01 stealth fedhas nerf? 10:38:06 dpeg: any thoughts about removing crystal ball of seeing, by the way? I was surprised to find out that it still existed... 10:39:08 elliptic: to be honest, there is no master plan for miscellaneous items. I meant to come up with something for years now, but obviously I flaked. If someone makes the first move, I'd walk along. 10:40:01 I don't have any idea about a master plan for them, but crystal ball of seeing seems to violate the "no reusable divinations source" rule fairly blatantly even if it isn't very good without high evocations 10:42:13 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:42:36 elliptic: I am fine with trashing it. There will be better balls in the future. 10:42:54 okay 10:46:30 * SamB wants a ball of bouncing 10:47:44 offhand, anybody know the maximum width/height for encompass vaults? 10:48:28 how many bits do x/y coordinates have? 10:49:49 i don't think that's what limits it 10:49:56 maybe not 10:50:00 but it'd give an upper bound 10:51:10 SamB: a ball of bouncing is no good without an inscribable Symbol of Insanity 10:51:10 kilobyte: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 10:51:27 true, but i know for a fact the upper bound is far more than the # of bits would allow 10:51:34 so the upper bound helps us not ... 10:51:51 ^ that didn't make sense but you see what i mean 10:51:58 SamB: coordinates are 32 bits 10:52:20 far less 10:52:24 but good luck trying to use them all 10:52:29 whereas vault max size is something like 80x80 (but it's not, it's lightly more arbitrary) 10:52:33 80x70 10:52:40 greatzebu: hmm, I thought there was a 32-bit packed format for locations 10:53:30 SamB: could be, i'm just thinking of the normal data structure for holding and manipulating coordinates 10:53:42 there may be restrictions imposed elsewhere 10:53:52 but, yeah, that's way smaller even than *that* would allow 10:53:53 ball of seeing is really good at high evoc, yeah 10:54:18 free infinite mapping, it made hells a breeze this game 10:54:26 it's 80x70 not 80x80 because the original Linley Henzell's code used no enums or constants and he wanted to avoid mistaking x for y :p 10:54:43 so i'd agree with removing it, too 10:54:43 yikes 10:54:50 oh, looks like it's actually 16-bit ? 10:55:23 but if for whatever reasons 32 bits are not enough for you, uint64_t is that way, and bignums could hold 800 Mbits before hitting CDO's ulimit :p 10:55:52 we do NOT need a dependancy on GMP 10:56:01 and that wouldn't work well with contrib, anyway 10:56:01 GMP? 10:56:03 kilobyte: I always thought the 70 is because console glyphs are higher than wide 10:56:13 kilobyte: lol, nice reasoning :) 10:56:17 I hear it's easy to build GMP wrong 10:56:32 ah, some stock bignum library... 10:56:33 no problem, 64 bits are more than enough for vault that is a scale model of the entire earth 10:56:38 what bignum implementation were you thinking of? 10:57:26 so, is 80x70 the limit for an entire map? 10:58:01 SamB: std::vector? 10:58:49 that's a bignum implementation? could have fooled me! 10:59:14 dpeg: the x!=y thing is something I _think_ I've read in a comment somewhere, not sure where. And what you say is why y < x. But don't take what I say here as a scripture. 10:59:34 (ie, don't throw it into a fire immediately :p) 10:59:36 jk 10:59:46 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:00:07 -!- Galefury has joined ##crawl-dev 11:00:53 SamB: depends on what you need. Addition, subtraction, multiplication, comparison is the typical use. 11:01:12 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:01:30 the last time I needed bignums for anything predates the existence of GMP 11:01:44 okay, on further inspection, these packed place things don't include coordinates anyway 11:02:40 oh, 1991. Ok, I meant its inclusion in GCC. But still... 11:03:13 packed_place needs to be able to hold branches, badly 11:03:51 it has a hard-coded assumption only LEVEL_DUNGEON can have branches or multiple levels 11:04:21 leading to gems like Ziggurat code reinventing depth in lua code that parses strings 11:04:35 ahh, so that's why it's like that 11:04:38 so you can't &~ Zig:27 11:05:39 and if you look at a save file, it has levels for: "port", "ziggurat", "Zig:1", the two first ones are unused 11:06:09 i'm amazed that ziggurats work correctly at all, given the weird hacks they use 11:07:09 it is a very creative use of scripting that really shouldn't be necessary 11:07:53 !messages 11:07:53 (1/1) greatzebu said (1h 5m 3s ago): do you have any specific thoughts on how to reorganize the portal vault handling code per issue 4471? i think i'll have some time this weekend to look at it, so if you have thoughts beyond "this should be cleaned up" i would like to know ahead of time 11:08:40 greatzebu: what I had in mind is a stack of levels, so you can draw the Trowel card without bugs 11:09:00 not that hard to implement, BUT... 11:09:02 ok, a stack was the first thing that came to mind 11:09:23 it would make untangling the LEVEL_PORTAL_VAULT mess harder 11:10:02 so because of too many things to do and too little time, I'm pondering applying your patch as-is since it would be easy to migrate from 11:10:03 more printf warnings: https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/merge_requests/6 11:10:49 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 11:11:17 probably packed places should be given at least a typedef... 11:11:38 i'm ok with waiting until things are nice and tidy, but it may take a while to get to 11:12:08 i would rather work on features to be honest, but cleaning things up is important for the long term 11:12:23 maybe a struct (even if with just one member) for typechecking's sake 11:13:09 kilobyte: thanks for the information! What do you think about the autooffer patch? If we reject it, I would like to give a very detailed description. This is someone who codes for Crawl, after all. 11:13:37 imo there is no reason for us to be using shorts for that at all 11:13:52 sure 11:14:26 but, it might be tricky trying to just switch to int 11:14:54 I mean, it'd be very easy to miss some places that use them 11:14:55 it's definitely a potential source of bugs 11:15:14 which is what leads me to think a struct might be wise 11:15:37 it would be much harder to miss attempts to use a struct as a short and vice-versa ;-) 11:15:46 i tend to agree on the struct. easier to add support for branches etc that way too 11:17:43 Back in a moment. Comments on autooffer patch welcome. 11:23:33 greatzebu: since every of portal branches is known, it could be enough to use a single namespace for them 11:23:53 Printf warning support for more functions (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4586) by SamB 11:24:02 kilobyte: i'm not sure i understand what you mean by namespace there 11:24:02 thus, instead of level_type:branch:level, there could be just branch:level, with level_type being derived from branch 11:24:07 ahh 11:24:07 * SamB suddenly remembers what that other zotdef annoyance he wanted to report was... 11:24:09 ok, that is clear 11:24:30 like, instead of 1=Orc, 1=Wizlab, it would be 1=Orc, 101=Wizlab 11:24:43 right 11:24:57 that would simplify things a bit 11:26:17 LordSloth the Carver (L13 HEWr) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 906 failed on turn 43546. (D:15) 11:27:05 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:27:09 not sure if anything requires packed_place to be exactly 16 bits though 11:27:41 if so, that's just one more thing to fix 11:28:44 I'm thinking about Ziggurats having proper C++-side depth mostly because it would simplify map generation, allow doing furniture as vaults, etc 11:29:25 wizlabs would require no lua magic at all, just DEPTH:Wizlab 11:30:39 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:32:43 generally things will be more pleasant if lua doesn't have to do tricks to manipulate the level code 11:32:44 is there some way to allow tags to be entered when reporting an issue? 11:33:19 I'd really like to be able to tag issues with e.g. "zotdef" immediately... 11:36:16 so, am I right in thinking that toadstools shouldn't desecrate the orb? 11:36:55 agree 11:37:18 are there other things that shouldn't, but maybe do? 11:37:24 like butterflies? 11:37:45 * SamB tries checking that in wizmode 11:38:11 Neutrals never desecrate the orb 11:38:20 If there were hostile butterflies they would I suppose 11:38:58 zotdef abilities mix with others in a confusing way (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4587) by SamB 11:39:25 -!- ldierk_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:40:46 on a somewhat different topic, I find myself totally clueless about how to get any of the loot in zotdef. 11:41:35 Wait until you get the teleport power. 11:42:57 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 11:43:05 -!- ldierk_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:43:12 maybe there should be some kind of instructions/hints for zotdef that would contain such nuggets of wizdom? 11:46:32 SamB: instead of #defining PRINTF in every single file, it really should be put in one place. 11:46:37 (I'll do it myself) 11:46:47 kilobyte: yeah, I didn't know where 11:47:36 not sure either... AppHdr.h is included by everything so it might go there 11:48:13 (and also I didn't want to have to rebase such a change since that would mean having to rebuild just about everything every time I did so...) 11:48:39 (or switched to a branch that didn't have it yet, etc.) 11:49:52 hmm, so I suppose after you do that I should pull into my luadoc branch *before* rebuilding 11:51:35 Oh, did you see the warning in hiscore.cc? I'm not sure what to do about it, but I guess there's not *too* much hurry... 11:52:05 ... I mean, until 2038, the only place it'd be an issue would be big-endian systems with 64-bit time_t 11:52:15 afaict 11:53:13 holy crap, if you don't have ccache, install it now. I ignored that on my newish home machine thinking that 46 second "make debug" isn't bad, but it's better to do it in 3 :p 11:53:28 hmm 11:54:04 why wasn't that in the *nix build instructions? 11:54:11 it just needs to get the cache size adjusted, the default 1GB can barely hold a single build of Crawl 11:54:21 oh dear 11:54:28 * SamB isn't sure he has the space for that, then 11:55:08 not sure, it doesn't even say alias make='make -j $CORES_TIMES_HT' 11:55:08 I don't build with full debugging, though, so maybe that'll go better then? 11:55:35 well, I wouldn't expect that 11:55:55 I haven't even figured out how to turn on hyperthreading ;-) 11:56:32 well, do it! 11:56:46 the kernel didn't seem to want to cooperate 11:58:01 if this cheap-ass 6-core box can do "make -j6 debug" in 46 seconds, a new 8-core-HT could do -j16 in a time that can make development fun 11:58:10 how come? 11:58:16 dunno 11:58:16 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:58:24 note that some motherboards require setting it in the BIOS 11:58:31 huh 11:58:47 most even, I think 11:59:00 -!- Galefury has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:59:06 that could be related then 11:59:17 -!- Galefury has joined ##crawl-dev 11:59:26 manufacturers used to ship it disabled since folks used to do mostly single-threaded stuff which is slightly slowed down by HT 12:00:12 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:02:17 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0.2/20110902133214]] 12:04:25 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:05:19 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:08:05 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 12:09:38 * SamB tries cleaning out /home/lost+found some... 12:09:40 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:13:11 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:16:41 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 12:17:39 huh, some of that stuff is code that may actually have gone missing 12:19:04 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:35:22 -!- ldierk_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:36:06 SamB: That is the "found" part! 12:36:45 the tricky part is figuring out where it's supposed to be 12:40:02 that will teach you using outdated file systems :) 12:42:25 -!- mumra has quit [Quit: offski] 12:42:32 yeah, btrfs has no fsck so if you have corruption, you're fucked :p 12:43:01 fortunately, it doesn't _usually_ do corruption 12:43:24 save for one detail during boot when on encrypted LVM on 2.6.39 :p 12:46:09 03kilobyte * r7980e389a65f 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Update the changelog, up to 0.10-a0-807-gb39258c. 12:46:19 03kilobyte * r886db4331b15 10/crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc: Simplify, so manuals for useless skills won't require an additional check. 12:46:19 03kilobyte * rf5bb14e7e0e1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Fix the new warnings. 12:46:20 03kilobyte * rf4b7a15e3468 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Correct spelling in a comment. 12:46:20 03kilobyte * r68a1157f42d2 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Add another out-of-array assert. 12:46:20 03kilobyte * ra47200b76c01 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Fix a crash on skill training simulation (potion of experience). 12:46:20 03kilobyte * r1a04297a6389 10/crawl-ref/source/ (AppHdr.h cio.h hiscores.h libutil.h mpr.h stuff.h): Add more printf warnings (SamB). 12:47:03 nice 12:50:45 i don't mind the fsck, i really despise the fixed number of inodes 12:51:15 hmm, yeah, kind of lame 12:52:06 * SamB wonders if NTFS has the same problem with MFT entries, which are its equivalent to inodes 12:53:29 wikipedia says max files are 2^32-1 12:53:51 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:55:27 bhaak: anyway, I'm not using ext2 for /home *anymore* 12:55:50 this was lost back when I was 12:55:56 presumably 12:56:05 ext4 has still the same limitation 12:56:26 on inodes, not on losing data :) 12:56:34 well, yeah, I was going to say 12:58:14 NTFS is at least not *conceptually* limited to a fixed number of MFT blocks, afaict 12:58:56 (the btrfs problem I had turned out to be corrupted journal not corrupted data, but I did not know that) 12:59:44 I mean, obviously you can't have an MFT that is bigger than the volume 13:00:35 SamB: wait, did you say ext_2_? 13:00:41 I used to use ext2 13:00:54 now I'm on ext3, with journaling 13:01:06 I've heard scary things about 4 13:01:17 ext2: a filesystem which goes to hell on a power loss is no good 13:01:26 yeah, that's why I switched 13:02:02 ext4 is fine, but it doesn't have a workaround for a certain quirk in ext3 people relied upon 13:02:34 i'm still prefering reiserfs (not reiser4) 13:02:45 I use jfs on my netbook 13:02:52 i was thinking about going btrfs for my new computer, but decided against it 13:02:54 hmm, did they ever convict reiser? 13:03:02 yes 13:03:09 good 13:03:15 jfs is nice and fast, but unmaintained except for bug fixes so it has no speed improvements or other doodads 13:03:56 reiser3 in my personal experience kills data like popcorn 13:04:04 bad for the filesystem, I suppose, but then he probably shouldn't have murdered his wife... 13:04:32 though I guess he probably put all his efforts into reiser4 anyway 13:05:08 what 13:05:18 kilobyte, it's fast enough :P 13:05:22 they should have let him use a computer but deny sending anything else than source code 13:05:47 forced him to provide tech support, maybe 13:06:05 they should've given him a morse-signaling pedal so he'd type diffs in morse code 13:06:15 lol 13:06:32 Zaba: yeah, faster than ext3, they say improvements in ext4 did overtake jfs by quite a margin 13:06:54 (I'm too much in love with btrfs though to look there... and all my old machines use jfs) 13:07:05 I'm too paranoid to use btrfs just yet 13:07:51 SamB, https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=78514#c19 13:08:03 it might screw the filesystem, but in my experience its backup features protect you against screw-ups by higher level code 13:08:16 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 13:08:42 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest53627 13:09:00 being able to do a whole-system backup in a split second means you do them often 13:09:09 backups done often = MAJOR WIN 13:09:15 yeah.. 13:10:05 but personally I don't see much point in storing backups in the same disk as the original data 13:10:10 I can just not remove stuff in the first place 13:10:19 it won't protect me against disk failure 13:10:35 it will protect you against most software, though 13:11:32 rsnapshot is for backups, nice daily snapshots 13:11:47 but yes, btrfs or zfs snapshots would be even cooler 13:11:59 but they don't work remotely :) 13:12:34 Zaba: wow... 13:12:59 * Zaba still makes pretty much no backups 13:14:32 But it sounds like he could at least see the screen. It would be much trickier to submit patches without actually being able to see the code to be patched! 13:14:39 i need to set them up for my group of computers 13:14:53 i have two desktops, a server, two laptops... 13:16:40 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 13:23:06 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: oh god class] 13:24:04 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:24:49 * dpeg dreads doing the Zin page. 13:26:00 dpeg: writing one up? or addressing comments on it? 13:27:39 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 13:31:35 Eronarn: redoing it, so that Zin can go implementable 13:31:51 ah 13:31:54 what changes are waiting? 13:33:24 Now that Recite is useful throughout the game, make it more useful. Monsters who disbehave are marked as "sinners", and Imprison will work better on them. They give piety on kills. Imprison will work better in general. 13:33:40 Perhaps replace piety for waiting/exploration with piety for burial. 13:34:10 Tell players in advance what stat boost they'll get from divine doping. 13:34:18 hmm, in b39258c4f9fe, shouldn't it be "had had", not just "had"? 13:36:24 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:37:28 I don't really like recite... it is pretty hard to predict what it is useful against or to know which of the recite options to use 13:38:19 Recite could stand to be somewhat clearer about which are the harshest of the axioms 13:39:03 axiom of choice, for sure 13:39:03 Both of these can be explained on ^!. 13:39:14 SamB: I don't believe it. 13:39:22 early game, recite seems much better against orcs than anything else... is this because they are worshippers of an evil god? 13:39:53 if so, this is really non-obvious 13:40:04 oh, that reminds me 13:40:24 some orc descriptions look really stupid when those orcs are your followers ... 13:40:42 elliptic: these are luxury problems. Zin used to be unplayable. 13:41:39 I'll try to cover these points with my overhaul. 13:43:22 to me, the biggest limitation of zin in the early game is that he does very little for you in lair 13:44:22 you can't recite animals, and you won't have enough piety to do anything really cool... zin mostly just helps out by curing status effects there 13:45:01 evilmike: what is the problem? You can do Lair instead. 13:45:11 s/Lair/Orc 13:45:50 you could donate all the gold in orc and get a nice piety boost, yeah... but that's fairly risky 13:46:08 I meant that Zin will be a real help in Orc. 13:47:05 On another note...is there any documentation that polearms reach, beyond the very easily missable "you can e(v)oke this item"? 13:47:30 I will add update the description. 13:47:46 You will also quickly learn from the helpful gnolls who are happy to teach you. 13:47:54 <3 13:48:50 recite can be pretty fun in orc, although I find you need a rather large amount of invocations skill for it to be really effective... I suppose if recite is revamped, this problem will be addressed 13:48:53 dpeg: heh 13:49:13 Does the manual cover each skill, too? 13:49:49 dpeg: sure, current recite is a vast improvement over old recite... I just wish it were a bit less opaque, since learning from trial and error isn't easy with an ability that paralyzes you for three turns and makes a lot of noise 13:49:59 If so, that should presumably also be updated 13:50:13 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 13:50:19 ldierk: Hi! 13:50:28 Hi 13:50:37 You just submitted a patch? 13:50:47 yes, for ?/G 13:50:52 !coffee ldierk 13:50:52 * Henzell hands ldierk a mug of caffè breve, brewed by Cerebov. 13:51:14 thanks. tasty 13:51:19 ldierk: What do you think on ?/B -- should we just ignore it and resolve the item? 13:51:39 what was wrong with it? 13:51:56 (issue #?) 13:52:08 03kilobyte * r127aff5a7cb2 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/layout.des: A slightly better floor for the emerald cavern. 13:52:11 03kilobyte * rfe11b4fe7bc5 10/crawl-ref/docs/crawl_manual.reST: Sync the manual from the wiki. 13:52:22 well no opinion on the tree view. 13:52:37 I haven't taken a look how G gets the branch initials 13:52:50 But should be fairly quick, no? 13:52:58 ah, that 13:53:00 jpeg has a point that branch initials are much less natural than god initials. 13:53:06 I liked the tree view personally 13:53:20 * dpeg knows why he always insisted on distinct god initials =) 13:53:20 branch initials are much less natural but I'm not sure why this is a big problem? 13:53:31 quick, let's rename our branches! 13:53:44 Tough one for Lair subbranches :) 13:53:55 the tree view doesn't even need those initials 13:54:02 it would be fine without them, IMO 13:54:07 alphabetic ordinals are obviously not natural, either 13:54:17 elliptic: I was a bit sorry to have added a controversial implentable. That's why I happy to drop it like a hot potato now that the uncontroversial content is there. 13:54:19 I just took the ?/G issue because it looked quite doable ;) 13:54:36 ldierk: That is the spirit! Many thanks! You're in the credits? 13:54:48 if it has to be unnatral, it might as well be the same unnatural thing as we use elsewhere, right? 13:54:50 oh, I see, the initials are also the keys to access the info about each branch 13:54:55 elliptic: yes 13:55:07 don't think so ;) 13:55:18 could highlight in a different color the branch the player is currently in 13:55:20 ldierk: will you give me your name? 13:55:22 that's why we keep consistent unique initials for branches 13:55:42 Lothar Dierkes. But have you already tried the patch? 13:55:43 14:39 <+elliptic> early game, recite seems much better against orcs than anything else... is this because they are worshippers of an evil god? 13:55:45 like, [S]nake [S]wamp [S]hoals [S]pider [S]lime 13:55:46 I am also afraid I completely flaked on the credits. Folks, if you use someone's patch, tiles, whatever, always ask for the credits, please. 13:55:47 14:39 <+elliptic> if so, this is really non-obvious 13:55:49 also beogh shouldn't be an evil god 13:55:51 yes 13:55:57 ldierk: Me? I cannot code :) 13:56:10 ah ok :) 13:56:24 kilobyte, elliptic: could one of you review/push ldierk patch? 13:56:52 ldierk: I only have a -5,-5 whip at my disposal, unbranded unfortunately. 13:57:05 dpeg: i think we should drop vitalization stat boost and give zin a passive stat boost :) 13:57:08 Hmm, perhaps gods good/evil/neither status needs to be spelled out better? 13:57:10 hmm, looks like I'm not mentioned in the credits file, good thing you pointed that out 13:57:31 Eronarn: but that is Chei's. Active stat boost is interesting because you can use it proactively. 13:57:34 i like the sinner thing, as a replacement for 'chaotic' 13:57:40 evilmike: will you give me your name, too? 13:57:59 Mike Evil, duh 13:58:01 Eronarn: wouldn't chaotics automatic sinners? 13:58:04 dpeg: it's only chei's because chei doesn't have anything more flavorful to replace it 13:58:13 sure, but there's other kinds of sinners, i mean 13:58:17 yes 13:58:21 Eronarn: true, but as long as that's case, I'll avoid duplication 13:58:21 my name is Michael Gagno 13:58:45 does not sound as evil as one might expect 13:58:53 Anyone else who wants a spot in the credits? Speak up now! Armageddon could be tomorrow. And God will surely look into our credits file before judging you. 13:59:01 right 13:59:12 and being there would be which, good or bad? 13:59:27 it depends which god is doing the looking ... 13:59:31 exactly 13:59:54 mumra, SamB: you're in? 13:59:56 I tried the ClayGolem patch today. Should I already report minor bugs for that patch? The description of quivered items is not updated when you eat them 14:00:02 * kilobyte wonders what if that god will be Xom... 14:00:13 dpeg: i think i was in already from the spider vault 14:00:15 * SamB is looking for the file 14:00:22 kilobyte: everyone gets a sausage before going to purgatory. 14:00:37 dpeg: i agree, we should not duplicate - remove chei stat boosts :) 14:01:01 There is no point in building up Zin while arsing Chei. 14:01:17 give Chei GDR to compensate! 14:01:26 * dpeg was born in the GDR... 14:01:40 before or after reunification? 14:01:50 Question makes no sense! 14:01:56 err, indeed 14:01:58 oh well, a little -- before 14:02:03 well, it probably makes sense on some level 14:02:18 13 years of GDR, my pleasure 14:02:38 hmm, I imagine you as a little older than me 14:02:44 and I imagine I'm already a little older than much of the channel 14:02:52 * dpeg tries to pick up his beard, but fails. 14:03:13 dpeg: if i find a good replacement for chei does that mean i can have the stat boosts? :D 14:03:21 Eronarn: well, perhaps :) 14:03:30 * Eronarn has plans for Zin 14:03:37 Crawl Light gave Chei Ash's passive divinations (and removed Ash) 14:03:46 man 14:03:50 zooko is everywhere 14:03:54 that sounds bad 14:04:16 ais523: I didn't really understand that. Ashenzari is a round and broad god. I'd have understood a bit better if he kicked Cheibriados, as that god is more niche. 14:04:22 SamB: You know him? 14:04:30 not well 14:04:31 dpeg: I think he merged them 14:04:46 Eronarn: voice them now, ideally before I update the Zin page. 14:05:28 he's an IRC acquaintance of mine, I guess 14:06:03 -!- ldierk_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:06:07 anyway, it does look like I need to be added to the credits 14:06:57 at some point not so far into the future, it might be easier adding to the credtis the rl-people that didn't contribute :) 14:07:04 I'm Samuel Bronson, as my patches will tell you 14:07:54 thanks 14:08:43 "We thank the Nethack devteam for providing an endless source of amusement to ##crawl-dev. May they be blessed, nailed to the sky for another eternity." 14:09:05 dpeg: just looked and apparently i'm not there; it's Pete Hurst 14:09:30 credits? 14:09:33 dpeg: passive conduct which if maintained gives stat boosts; some recite improvements; possibly ally stuff; no more instagibbing orcs with recite 14:09:45 If one of you guys enters the devteam, I have to shuffle all these names around, I tell ya. We need a secretary who's doing the credits. 14:09:46 oh, and appropriate holies for zin 14:10:01 Eronarn: they have to wait until the holies go in. 14:10:16 I speculated whether every good god could have a pet holy monster. 14:10:17 the colors on the ?/G menu look strange to me 14:10:38 dpeg: zin has Silver Stars already, but that's all 14:11:01 i think either zin should get angels, or we should split angel into three different angel monsters 14:11:02 kilobyte: Does reaching still allow to target anything two squares away? That used to be the case already, but was changed at some time, iirc. 14:11:10 Eronarn: angels for Zin is fine by me. 14:11:21 its what colour_to_str( god_colour( ..)) returns 14:11:24 (angel of purity, angel of mercy, angel of wrath) 14:11:36 I think Ely should get pearl swines. 14:11:43 this is god_colour()'s fault, yes... I'm just wondering if these are actually the colors we want 14:11:54 Is Ash orange? 14:11:54 aside from that it looks good :) 14:12:07 03lothar.dierkes * rf88fe0f4f36f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (command.cc menu.cc menu.h): new hotkeys and colours for ?/G 14:12:07 03kilobyte * r0b1893983897 10/crawl-ref/source/ (makefile util/columnise-credits.pl): Ensure CREDITS.txt is sorted upon release. 14:12:07 03kilobyte * r84e8022818ae 10/crawl-ref/CREDITS.txt: Add ldierk to credits. 14:12:09 TSO has summons, Zin doesn't. So I don't see why he would need a variety is something he does not use. 14:12:17 ah, good point... there are the colours for the messages and colours for the altars 14:12:17 pearl swine are awful :( 14:12:22 his wrath could use some update, though 14:12:24 ely already gets these: 14:12:25 @??apis 14:12:25 apis (16Y) | Speed: 10 | HD: 16 | Health: 100-148 | AC/EV: 9/5 | Damage: 4008(holy) | Flags: 08holy, lev | Res: 06magic(106), 04rot, 13neg+++, 08holy | XP: 1763. 14:12:37 dpeg: yeah, I think this is using the message colours maybe, and it would look better with the altar colours 14:12:39 not that they show up anywhere 14:12:40 elliptic: I had the same feeling though 14:12:59 In console, the altar colours will be more informative. 14:13:09 elliptic: the menu doesn't support elemental colours 14:13:11 kilobyte: i think it's good if each holy god has at least two holies 14:13:20 not counting uniques 14:13:27 kilobyte: which is a GOOD THING 14:13:32 kilobyte: yeah, that's the problem :/ but currently many of the colors are the same 14:13:52 * SamB does not want to see any checkerboard-colored or shimmering text, thanks 14:13:52 elliptic: unavoidable with 17 gods and 14 or so colours. 14:13:56 ABKLMTVY are all the same colour though! 14:13:59 SamB: wouldn't be text 14:14:03 oh, okay 14:14:06 nevermind then 14:14:13 Eronarn: why would they need to keep their staff separated? Kiku and Yred share, so do Makleb, Xom and Vehumet. 14:14:30 (Xom shares with TSO, too... but Xom is Xom) 14:14:36 kilobyte: there should be generic holies too 14:14:47 i just want to have at least a high level and low level holy for each holy god 14:14:55 kilobyte: okay, updating the manual with "two squares away" for polearms. Tell me if it is wrong. 14:14:58 dpeg: colour distribution is 8/5/1/1/1/1/1 14:15:03 in the menu currently 14:15:05 elliptic: :| 14:15:11 "the menu doesn't support elemental colours" does that mean altar colours aren't supported ? 14:15:23 I think asking for elemental colours is too much? 14:15:34 is it? 14:15:47 elemental colours don't work, yeah... but we could at least use one colour for evil gods, one for good gods, etc 14:15:53 hmm, I guess it wouldn't help on tiles 14:15:58 "elemental" is our slang for colours that change every refresh in a random manner 14:16:04 kilobyte: also: angels are explicitly TSO right now; it would be fine if they became generic unless TSO-gifted 14:16:21 kilobyte: or do other wierd shit, like being checkerboarded, yes? 14:17:45 it's only him who's waging a war. Zin does hairshirt, Ely does the healer stuff. 14:17:48 Hm the issue is that elemental colours change upon key stroke in the dungeon... no such key presses in the menu. 14:18:19 refresh once per second? 14:18:27 or something like that? 14:18:31 perhaps not worth it 14:18:36 perhaps not 14:18:38 I'd assume Zin and Ely had angels too, they were just less warlike 14:18:43 could just not refresh 14:18:47 imagine an angel of Ely who turns up and casts Heal Other at the player 14:18:47 kilobyte: I'll do the other credits? Can I sort? 14:19:05 dpeg: could fix a representative colour for each elemental colour and just use that 14:19:11 elliptic: agreed 14:19:22 elliptic: would you pick one? 14:19:23 elemental colors were one of the things that confused my attempts to write a screenscraping bot 14:19:49 ais523: I think you can redefine them in the config file. 14:19:50 ais523: three kinds of angels, with different spell lists? :) 14:20:00 Eronarn: might make sense 14:20:02 dpeg: I can try to look at it, though it isn't a part of the code I know anything about 14:20:07 zin = recite 14:20:17 I'd expect Zin's to spam Abjuration, and throw silver projectiles, as well as reciting 14:20:26 and Ely's to have basically no offensive power at all, and just buff their allies, moth-style 14:20:52 we can just use uint8_t god_message_altar_colour(god_type god); instead.. it gives altar colours 14:20:56 does heal other exist as a player spell, btw? 14:21:37 ldierk: but are those guaranteed to be simple colors? 14:21:40 dpeg: really, we could build it during compilation from a source file... there's no way to tell who was added unless you look very carefully 14:21:52 dont know 14:22:11 looks good on my terminal :) 14:22:32 does it change every time you open the menu? 14:24:02 mennas is an angel of zin... I've always asumed his confuse spell was supposed to be some kind of "recite" 14:24:31 samB: yes it does :/ 14:24:54 That's really probably good enough, though 14:25:17 well it gives wrong colours 14:25:22 evilmike: yeah, which i think is a problem since he doesn't speak and stuff 14:25:37 kilobyte: good point. So I add but won't sort? 14:26:26 dpeg: no idea, I'm pointing out a problem and a possible improvement, but on the other hand it was always kept immediately sorted before 14:27:09 I'll add and won't sort then :) It is a good idea. 14:28:02 I guess 32 colours would be enough for Crawl. 27 colours and a bit fluff. 14:28:27 mmm, colors 14:28:36 why do you say that? 14:28:55 We discussed lack of console colours the other day. 14:29:07 brogue makes very pretty use of subtly colored text 14:29:11 go check it out! 14:29:17 SamB: Oh, and I want 27 gods at some time, circa 2060. 14:29:28 lol 14:29:33 Anyone up for CREDITS? 14:29:36 won't you be needing to keep the basic 16 in any cases? 14:29:46 er. case? 14:30:07 03elliptic * rc69af234e133 10/crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: Fix rod recharge rate. 14:30:53 anyway, I don't how you have an option of using 32 colors 14:31:04 SamB: no, you don't 14:31:08 terminals only really support 16, 88, or 256, don't they? 14:31:10 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:31:19 (heck, some may only support 8!) 14:31:25 or 2 :) 14:31:29 or 2 14:32:46 worse, some support modification of the palette and some don't 14:33:01 (though I guess playing crawl under screen doesn't really work anyway...) 14:33:18 for those who want 256 colours, adding them is mostly a matter of changing 8 bit fields to something that can hold 256 colours + elementals + branding bits, in hundreds places around the code 14:33:34 huh 14:33:40 tried screen, messes up the keys... 14:33:47 ldierk: exactly 14:33:50 kilobyte: find & replace :D 14:33:59 Eronarn: unlikely to help 14:34:09 the tricky part is finding 14:34:24 modifications of the palette is bad due to varying support. It's not a high-res image, the default palette is good enough for text. 14:34:43 Eronarn: how do you propose finding that in an automated way? 14:35:41 kilobyte: oh, 32 is to leave room for branding bits? 14:35:54 what kind of branding? 14:36:08 like, I can has blue of reaching? orange of venom? 14:40:30 inverse, underline, etc 14:40:39 ah 14:40:48 like, stairs or traps when there's an item there 14:40:50 attribute bits 14:44:07 03dpeg * red731f3e893f 10/crawl-ref/CREDITS.txt: Update CREDITS. 14:49:58 Playing in screen works fine, you just have to remember to do like ^aa instead of just ^a. 14:51:48 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:00:50 hmm, is there some wizmode command to disable normal monster spawning in zotdef? 15:07:38 an user-friendly one? None I know of. But, via lua: & ^T debug.disable("spawns") 15:09:01 thanks 15:18:27 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 15:20:42 -!- ldierk_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:22:47 Fyren: I coudl have sworn I hit issues with Ctrl+direction using nethack-mode for the numpad... 15:23:35 I use vi keys, but I can go test. 15:24:51 In theory it should be the same? 15:28:04 Works fine for me? 15:28:32 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:28:52 galehar: hi! 15:29:04 hi! 15:29:04 galehar: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 15:29:09 !messages 15:29:09 (1/2) elliptic said (5h 37m 1s ago): My current thoughts about the restriction for shields: require carrying a (wearable) shield or a rod of warding (contains condensation shield) or having condensation shield memorized or worshipping TSO with the appropriate piety 15:29:21 !messages 15:29:22 (1/1) elliptic said (5h 9m 42s ago): A suggestion from ##crawl: display maxed skills as "27" rather than "27.0" 15:30:08 03galehar * rf3ec653ad11b 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Update HP and MP whenever the relevant skill is trained, not on level up. 15:30:08 03galehar * r698ec979bc50 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Revert "Remove an assert." 15:30:09 03galehar * r2f359a39d1e4 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc: Remove the initial 25 XP (#4577). 15:30:09 03galehar * r231fcc068900 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc: Fix Vp and Dg crash on new game (#4579). 15:30:09 03galehar * r71c7cf8ad0e0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-place.cc mon-util.cc): Fix a mimic crash in tiles (#4570). 15:30:11 03galehar * r7731fed1b1cd 10/crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: Reduce the frequency of Abyss speed updates for Chei. 15:30:11 03galehar * r95208625d058 10/crawl-ref/source/ (exercise.cc exercise.h): Remove some obsolete code. 15:30:11 03galehar * rbcc6db97b128 10/crawl-ref/source/ (evoke.cc skill_menu.cc): Prevent reskilling to and using manual for useless skills. 15:30:17 03galehar * r9c43462fc1c2 10/crawl-ref/source/exercise.cc: Don't exercise armour if EVP is null. 15:30:18 03galehar * r080a45ce3f75 10/crawl-ref/source/ (evoke.cc invent.cc invent.h item_use.cc tilereg-dgn.cc): On click, unwield weapons of reaching instead of evoking them (#4581). 15:32:09 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 15:32:18 !seen elliptic 15:32:30 I last saw elliptic at Wed Sep 21 20:14:17 2011 UTC (18m 13s ago) saying heteroy: 0.09% on ##crawl. 15:32:47 galehar: tukkek sent in an autooffer patch. There has been no feedback on it yet (it is an idea from the wiki interface list, but was not an implementable) apart from elliptic who spoke up against it. What is your opinion? If we decline, I'd like to give a very thorough explanation, so as to not lose a patcher. https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4583 15:33:38 what did elliptic said about it? 15:34:27 it's for ely and nemelex? 15:34:40 17:22 <+elliptic> dpeg: not sure what I think about the idea... it might just remove a lot of interaction between player and god 15:34:44 17:22 <+elliptic> I didn't try out the patch to see exactly how it works in it 15:34:56 and gods who want corpses 15:35:19 17:23 <+elliptic> I think it is sort of reasonable that pleasing your god requires *some* conscious attention 15:35:34 i've not tried it but i love the idea :P 15:35:44 the keybinding clashes with the keybinding for "read mail" on public servers 15:36:40 what it basically seems to do is to automatically simulate pressing p if you step on a stack of useless items 15:36:46 and allow you to specify corpses as useless or the purpose 15:36:55 it is quite tedious to offer corpses. but you have to toggle it off every time you want to eat a corpse? 15:37:16 I wasn't around when he asked here :( 15:37:18 it's tedious to press p? 15:37:36 galehar: it is more about including them in the go-to list for autoexplore 15:37:56 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 15:38:03 oh right, that's something else 15:38:10 ok corpses is not a good example. but weapons for Ely, if you don't autotravel there. 15:38:13 ldierk: I think it only sets in when you press o. So after a kill you can clearly eat your corpse. 15:38:24 autoexplore going to corpses could be nice 15:38:37 I don't think that autooffer for Ely is good, actually. But corpses... 15:39:51 if autoexplore went to corpses then i'd probably just macro o to po for automatic sacrifices 15:40:02 but if the patch handles that anyway then it sounds nice to me 15:40:20 the patch seems to be just like autopickup, except offering rather than pickupping on useful items 15:40:25 I'm not sure if that's the desired behaviour 15:40:31 *on useless items 15:40:37 For corpses it is. 15:40:44 although yeah, sacrificing useless items doesn't sound like it's actually useful very often 15:40:57 the patch doesn't seem to deal with autoexplore 15:40:59 For Nemelex, it might be better if you move onto the item, but let the player decide. 15:41:02 dpeg: well, it seems like you'd have to turn it off whenever you wanted to eat 15:41:07 also, it's for beogh and nemelex, not ely 15:41:08 ais523: no, as explained above 15:41:17 ah, I see 15:41:26 Bonus points to galehar for being first to look into it :) 15:41:31 does this mean the idea for full-screen sacrifices is gone? I guess autooffer has its purpose, but fedhas-style seems so much... nicer 15:41:40 nicest on the interface would probably just be to allow ranged sacrificing 15:41:44 like evilmike just said 15:41:47 fedhas-style is also fun, yeah 15:42:02 I'd much prefer full-screen sacrifices also if we think there is actually something wrong with the current status 15:42:05 Hey, I got complaints when I proposed that :) 15:42:09 03MarvinPA * r140a26aac72f 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: Adjust a shadow demon vault 15:42:13 from who, and why? 15:42:13 it has a slight gameplay impact, but not a very significant one 15:42:23 also, he failed to read coding convention, but that's a mistake every patcher do :P 15:42:26 ais523: ah, you get complaints for free. For any idea that is new,. 15:42:37 marvinpa: the biggest thing is that it weakens monster animate dead 15:42:39 oh, I know 15:42:40 right 15:42:52 there are even people complaining about Ace, saying that they like the game arbitrarily killing them when they walk into floating eyes 15:43:19 ais523: for example. Just have to ignore them. 15:43:40 well, I try to work out if complaints are complaining about something fixable without offending other people or not 15:43:40 ais523: those people should be sentenced to playing nethack for the rest of eternity 15:44:17 dpeg: it does seem pointless. It's more interesting to optimize autoexplore rather than saving one keystroke (p) 15:44:31 galehar: it is much more than one keystroke. 15:44:37 Walk to corpse, press p. 15:44:51 the patch doesn't walk to corpse 15:44:58 if you do, it will pray for you 15:44:58 what I'd like to see is a way to pick up several identical (stacks of) items... 15:45:07 galehar: ok. That is indeed pointless. 15:45:25 I'll tell him, and that the idea of walking to corpses is interesting, but contested? 15:45:39 SamB: ? 15:46:07 like, to collect my large rocks after use 15:46:07 Are there currently any gods with prayer serving both a sacrificial and other purpose? 15:46:23 without trying to explore everywhere 15:46:23 jle: no, I think we got rid of all. 15:46:30 dpeg: autoexplore being configurable to walk to items and stop without picking them up would be good 15:46:39 Oh wait, doesn't ely have some divine protection on prayer, or is that old? 15:46:45 SamB: thrown weapons are on autopickup by default, you'll get them when autoexploring 15:46:52 if you want a more convenient method, try apportation 15:46:56 jle: that is triggered by 'ap' now 15:46:56 optimizing autoexplore to go to corpses isn't controversial. It's easy to check if you're hungry or worshipping a blood god 15:46:58 jle: gone 15:47:04 Ah, neat. 15:47:09 autoexplore is rarely nice in zotdef... 15:47:29 jle: I was unsure for a while (because prayer is so damn thematic) but interface/gameplay won and then I lobbied for it. 15:47:32 it's always trying to *explore*! 15:48:02 what you want to do with a corpse once you're over it should always be the player's choice. There's to many things to do with it to be automated sanely. 15:48:17 galehar: well, there was the counterproposal of Fedhas-style mass sacrifices. I am not convinced, though. Call me conservative, but I think this idea fits much better for mushrooms springing from the ground than for corpses. 15:48:25 you might want to cut it up and then pray over it, yeah 15:48:37 galehar: I think this is the sort of thing best outsourced to config files rather than hardcoding in rules about when to go or not go to corpses 15:48:58 dpeg: yeah, I'm not too fond of LOS sacrifice either 15:49:10 elliptic: tricky to make the config god-specific... 15:49:15 So I am about to decline tukkek's patch. Should I mention that we're interested in going-to corpses, or not? elliptic? 15:49:32 whether or not I want to go to corpses depends on a ton of factors... it certainly needs to be something that can be toggled on and off, at least 15:49:34 going-to is nice for a variety of purposes 15:49:38 It'd allow me to end on a positive note. 15:49:38 for instance, eating 15:50:08 elliptic: there are a few cases where it's a no brainer to go to corpses (hungry and blood god). autoexplore can do it. 15:50:09 I'm not saying 'o' should do it, but it would be a nice thing to be able to do 15:50:28 some other cases can be configured with options 15:50:32 Didn't we have an idea to split o into o and O? 15:50:38 dpeg: you can already make autoexplore go to corpses by adding them to autopickup... the problem is just that it picks them up instead of stopping 15:50:50 dpeg: yeah, I suggested that and we have an implementable for it 15:51:02 galehar: ah, good. 15:51:07 elliptic: the other problem is that requires hairy gymnastics 15:51:18 somebody said he will do it but he didn't 15:51:18 galehar: but are you checking for edibility of corpses? it gets pretty complicated 15:52:00 elliptic: not really. The code's already there. 15:52:01 Going to sacrificable items should be a toggle for Nemelex and corpse god followers. 15:52:01 also, if I am exploring around and suddenly become hungry, I really don't want autoexplore to suddenly go to the other end of the level for a corpse (which might well rot on the way) 15:52:17 behavior of autoexplore shouldn't be affected by stuff like hunger level 15:52:46 elliptic: hmm. That's a good point 15:52:54 I wouldn't do it for food, only for sacrifice purposes. 15:53:01 elliptic: doesn't it stop traveling anyway? 15:53:02 Then, explore wouldn't change. 15:53:03 for blood god, autoexplore going to corpse might be fine 15:53:17 samb: I mean when I press o again 15:53:25 yeah, you're going to either eat or sac it 15:53:31 Go to corpse if it's in LOS when you press o and certain conditions are met? 15:53:36 anyway, I think it'd be nice to have a command that just meant "look for corpses" 15:53:39 that's all 15:53:39 kilobyte: or do other fun things on the occasion. 15:53:43 (Like blood god or hunger) 15:53:51 or maybe a toggle to make autoexplore do it 15:53:51 I just think we don't want to start embedding really complicated rules in autoexplore 15:53:55 ^Fcorpse 15:53:58 rather than any logic 15:54:00 It would also be quite useful for NEmelexites. 15:54:02 elliptic: +1 15:54:08 03kilobyte * re7b468dbcbd4 10/crawl-ref/git-hooks/crawl-ref-cia: Teach CIA about ldierk and SamB. 15:54:08 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 15:54:13 kilobyte: a *fast* command 15:54:18 03lothar.dierkes * r7663f3a9c8a7 10/crawl-ref/source/menu.cc: ?/G uses altar colours 15:54:27 SamB: it can be macroed 15:54:51 also, I want it to solve the traveling salesman problem 15:55:14 in P time 15:55:17 >_> 15:55:36 well, I would like if I'm with Trog and I can press opopop after a battle to clean up 15:55:53 elliptic: regarding skill restrictions, you think it's better not to require a shield to be wielded? 15:56:02 *worn 15:56:21 galehar: yeah, I decided that after SamB pointed out the other means of getting a shield (condensation shield etc) 15:56:23 galehar: some shields aren't wearable... 15:56:38 you don't want people memorizing condensation shield just so that they can train shields without wearing one 15:57:25 well, there's also the possibility of removing that :P 15:57:33 removing condensation shield? 15:57:47 no, the fact that it trains shields 15:57:56 but it uses shield... 15:57:56 well, it uses shield skill currently 15:58:07 true 15:58:13 if it uses it, it should train it 15:58:17 yes 15:58:34 and as with any implication, you can mess with the predecessor :p 15:58:38 better just to keep things relaxed and allow training shield skill if you have anything shield-related in your inventory :P 15:58:58 or memory? 15:59:02 yeah 15:59:09 * dpeg still doesn't know what to tell tukkek :O 15:59:10 Or 'a'? :) 15:59:17 (TSO) 15:59:32 And bone plate, wise guys. 15:59:39 bone plate doesn't use shield skill actually 15:59:40 I thought that didn't use shield 15:59:43 it probably shouldn't train it 16:00:00 it just annoys me that people so often train shields before actually using one and never suffer the penalty. But maybe the problem is with the penalty, not the training. 16:00:05 alternatively it should use shield skill :P 16:00:17 galehar: yeah... marvinpa already wants to change the penalty formula I think 16:00:46 elliptic: Would that be an option? I'd like it if bone plate would be some incentive for the Dr to go Shields. Is it already? 16:01:02 DS you mean? 16:01:06 yes, sorry 16:01:18 Dr might be a somewhat interesting idea though 16:01:22 dpeg: letting it get a multiplier from shield skill sounds reasonable to me 16:01:39 then it should keep training, okay 16:02:08 MarvinPA: what should the change be? 16:05:13 I haven't ran any number yet, but I think that at least the large shield penalty should never completely go away 16:07:26 that is a good idea 16:07:29 currently it is really easy to eliminate the penalties for a buckler or shield (or large shield if large race)... you just need a medium amount of skill 16:07:55 is that bad? 16:07:59 and after that point you don't get nearly as much benefit from raising shield skill... basically it is another "min delay" situation 16:08:06 oh, I see 16:08:19 What if the penalty is constant and only the effect depends on skill? (Need to decrease the penalty, of course.) 16:08:32 effect? 16:08:35 SH 16:08:37 shouldn't it increase the efficacy of your shield, too? 16:08:42 skills plateaus like that are problematic--very spoilery 16:08:59 We know this. We are discussing ways around that. 16:09:03 dpeg: I think the penalty should still depend on skill slightly at least 16:09:17 but it doesn't need to go all the way down to 0 16:09:24 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:09:46 I don't think there's any reason the penalty shouldn't basically go away for smallish shields 16:10:14 maybe the penalty could have a curve similar to 1/x. Decrease slower and slower and never reach 0. 16:10:15 well, you still have a shield on your arm :) 16:10:17 but, yeah, zero is not needed 16:10:18 If you're going this way with skills, casting focused characters should require more skill levels to get their big guns 16:10:20 seems to me like the most intuitive way to do this (for the player) would be to make the penalty (and the effect of the skill) work more like armour does 16:10:25 I agree. If you use a shield, you gain something. No reason not to give up something in return. 16:10:27 I don't know if that is desired or even practcial though 16:10:27 look at how heavy armour is handled... those penalties don't go away 16:10:30 evilmike: yeah 16:10:44 dpeg: well, you don't get two-handing 16:10:57 SamB: sure, but another layer of defense. 16:11:14 sure 16:11:25 penalty for buckler can still be mostly negligible, of course 16:11:33 two-handing is arguably already superior in the endgame 16:11:51 elliptic: right 16:13:20 greatzebu: is it? I recall times when advice when in the opposite direction. 16:13:38 the big endgame threats are torment, hellfire, and smiting 16:13:40 I think greatzebu might mean extended endgame 16:13:41 yes 16:13:47 elliptic: yes 16:14:17 one of my greatest early-game fears is smiting, too ;-P 16:14:19 shields aren't good for that much in extended endgame... mainly good for fragile chars, who aren't likely to be using two-handers anyway 16:14:26 since shields don't help with any of that, trading one off for increased damage makes a lot of sense 16:15:34 elliptic: Do shields increase early/midgame survivability of melee chars? 16:15:42 the idea of this change isn't to nerf shields though... just to make shield skill less spoilery 16:15:46 yes 16:16:28 I wouldn't see anything wrong if Shields usefulness peters out in the extended endgame. But your comments make it sounds as if shields + melee is generally a bad idea. 16:16:35 elliptic: regarding training restrictions, I'm still not convinced. If players want to learn condensation shields to avoid wearing a shield, let them. 4 spell slots is not a negligible cost. And they might even use the spell! 16:16:39 dpeg: it depends... on hybrids, 1-hander+shield is nice because it means more exp for spells 16:17:17 elliptic: I understood that. But for pure fighters? This has impact on the Fi background, for example. 16:17:20 I find it's also pretty rare that you'd actually want to use a large shield. I find I only use those on a few very specific character builds. Part of this is because they ask for 25 skill on most races 16:17:21 greatzebu: to the contrary, it is in late game when shields have the most value IMO 16:17:29 galehar: what abou timplementation complexity? 16:17:30 on pure melee chars, some people love shields always... personally I prefer 2-handers unless I have a high-damage-dealing option that can be used with the shield (a lucky demon weapon find, unarmed, slings) 16:18:10 greatzebu: it's almost about being able to avoid damage, not dishing it out. Just look at how Dragon Form is considered useless even though it does massive damage. 16:18:43 one issue with current melee balance is that you can do huge damage with unarmed and still use a large shield 16:18:43 maybe it should work more like in Breath Of Fire ;-) 16:18:44 kilobyte: i am really just talking about the extended endgame, where shields don't help prevent the most significant sources of damage 16:19:09 greatzebu: I think the extended game is irrelevant for our purpose 16:19:12 SamB: doesn't change anything. Checking if the shield is worn is not harder than checking if it is carried. 16:19:22 elliptic: isn't this a problem with UC in general? 16:19:28 galehar: I meant all those other conditions 16:19:39 kilobyte: dragon form is sort of different because it tends to nerf your resistances, AC, and EV... now that it gives a bit of GDR (and more AC) it might be better 16:19:58 dpeg: well, UC isn't nearly as overpowered when you don't realize you can use a shield with it 16:19:58 SamB: it's not simple, but it's not something I can't code either ;) 16:20:15 The skill investment for big shields balances them quite well 16:20:17 galehar: and you'll remember about the rod? 16:20:23 dpeg: that's not unreasonable, and in any case i am in favor of making shield benefits scale up more smoothly 16:20:25 elliptic: could you come up with an UC nerf for shields? 16:20:31 dpeg: for several versions when I started, popular wisdom on ##crawl was that shields hurt unarmed a ton... and then someone realized that they really don't 16:20:41 haha 16:21:03 dpeg: or better, with an UC nerf, period. I don't understand why it should be that good as it is without forms/claws. 16:21:24 Me neither, but I cannot penetrate how it works. 16:21:49 i think it would be fine if UC were more of a 'challenge option' for non-monstrous-y races 16:21:57 Large shields are probably the most attractive with heavy armor since you'd need astronomical investment to cast/stab with it 16:21:59 SamB: sure! I'm coding it right now :P 16:22:00 unarmed combat is actually pretty simple compared to most melee 16:22:07 in RL, a grandmaster with a knife is more dangerous than a grandmaster with bare hands. Not in Crawl. 16:22:11 kilobyte: this requires making unarmed aux mutations more useful 16:22:32 kilobyte: doesn't that depend on what he's a grandmaster of at all? 16:22:41 kilobyte: heck, even just someone moderately skilled with a knife can be better. fighting someone armed when you aren't is hard 16:22:49 SamB: Chess? Go? :p 16:22:52 What is the current offhand punch damage like? 16:23:00 I meant which martial art... 16:23:07 I think people agree that the correct thing to do with unarmed is to nerf regular unarmed a lot at high UC skill but increase aux damage by a decent bit 16:23:17 SamB: the guy using a knife is a grandmaster whittler. the guy using his hands is a grandmaster masseuse 16:23:40 if the art involves using some of your enemies to clobber your other enemies, for instance ;-) 16:23:48 elliptic: to the contrary, I would make mutations not use the UC skill at all, they shoehorn people into unarmed 16:23:53 elliptic: auxes are pretty awful in general 16:23:57 and should be looked at 16:24:01 kilobyte: sure, that would be one way of going about it 16:24:09 kilobyte: sounds good. 16:24:14 kilobyte: what skill should they use? 16:24:19 XL 16:24:20 one thing to keep in mind with regular UC is that it is very much not overpowered at low skill 16:24:26 Does one of you think you could come up with an UC nerf and aux change? 16:24:40 elliptic: for example races like centaurs... I don't imagine a real (ok...) centaur fighting mostly unarmed. Fisticuffs != kicks. 16:24:41 until you get UC to 15 or so, it isn't particularly good without an overpowered form like spiderform 16:24:49 perhaps UC should do /only/ auxes 16:25:08 Including claws? 16:25:10 claws are harder to use if you're holding a two-hander 16:25:10 ais523: that's... interesting. Heck, I'd go with it. 16:25:27 hooves, not so much 16:25:29 [string "global_prelude"]:64: attempt to index local 'vault' (a nil value) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4588) by Grmpf 16:25:40 ais523: in GURPS, there's multiple martial arts skills. Karate is the 'good' one 16:25:43 but doesn't apply to horns and such 16:25:52 and those fists would still potentially do *some* damage... 16:25:56 Brawling is worse, but easier to learn, and lets you hit 'whole-body' even if that's a snake, spider, etc. body 16:26:55 you could use a similar paradigm here: 'Karate' as the primary skill affecting your 'core' unarmed attack, and 'Brawling' as the secondary skill which affects your auxes (including the ones normal humans get, offhand punches/kicks/headbutts) 16:26:56 dpeg: I could rebalance regular UC but deciding exactly what to do with the auxes is complicated... lots of reasonable directions to go there 16:27:03 this would actually have several nice effects 16:27:24 hmm, not a bad idea 16:27:25 for example, couldn't use Karate with Blade Hands - you'd have to be also training Brawling 16:27:44 and monstrous races would also want to train both Karate and Brawling, since Brawling is what gets them better at horns and such 16:28:00 Eronarn: I'd remove monks. They are an insult to realism. Trolls can pick "claws" as a fighter. 16:28:03 Eronarn: what about legs? 16:28:16 Eronarn: Please don't call it Karate... 16:28:39 aux depending on XL rather than UC sounds good to me. 16:28:41 ghallberg: of course not... 'Fisticuffs' :D 16:28:48 galehar: +1 16:28:53 Eronarn: r+1 16:29:08 elliptic: I support decoupling auxes from UC skills and tying it to something else. Instead of XL, I'd suggest a stat. 16:29:17 Dex/Str, perhaps depending on type of aux. 16:29:23 dpeg: YES! 16:29:26 SamB: some stuff could plausibly fit into either, like 50% of your kick chance coming from Karate, 50% from Brawling 16:29:29 or whatever 16:29:35 Finally something to buff str/dex 16:29:37 The good point of stats is that they generally go up with your XL, but if you don't invest, then not :) 16:29:57 dpeg: and what about forms? 16:30:00 dpeg: so do you think there should be any extra reason to use UC on a minotaur or centaur, say? 16:30:10 nobody is going to invest in stat boosts for auxes is the thing 16:30:11 kilobyte: only if they're not using a weapon in melee. 16:30:27 oh hey, one other nice thing about two skills: you can give different apts for them 16:30:34 If the centaur wants to make optimal use of the kicks, she should go Str. 16:30:35 like HO 0 karate, 3 brawling, or whatever 16:31:13 sorry, that was kilobyte <--> elliptic, your nicks have the same length 16:31:33 dpeg: but not the same colour! 16:31:39 kilobyte: not sure about forms. Aren't many of them considered too strong? I like them to use Str/Dex as well, btw. 16:31:39 dpeg: worst excuse ever 16:31:56 They're all bright yellow to me. =) 16:32:14 !learn add bad_excuse but your nicks have the same length 16:32:14 bad excuse[16/16]: but your nicks have the same length 16:32:30 dpeg: combat in general needs to use str/dex more 16:32:33 i like the simplicity of dpeg's suggestion 16:32:38 elliptic: I agree 16:33:02 For some scope, my constriction uses Str exclusively for damage (of a player constricting a monster). 16:33:04 elliptic: very true. the current system is counterintuitive 16:33:48 combat should use str/dex more for sure, and it could be a component of auxes, but i'm not sure it should be 'it' for them 16:33:57 do weapons still use that weird str weighting thing that has almost no effect? that always seemed like an interesting idea to me, but bizarrely implemented 16:34:02 Well, when we have skills, we can afford to ignore the stats (and probably should, because we have too many parameters). But for skills-free applications, stats are the way to go. 16:34:02 yes 16:34:18 make all weapons reach min delay at skill 27. Then use stats to balance. 16:34:30 a bit harder to do than to say of course. 16:34:44 weighting would be nice if it ended up with certain weapon classes being str-favored and others being dex-favored 16:34:52 Do you folks think that the Str requirements for armours have a point? 16:34:56 yes 16:34:57 yes 16:35:13 of course 16:35:15 it is a vast improvement over the time when you saw people wearing plate mail with str 8 16:35:32 So we could take a cue from there. But for now, we could try to settle on an UC/aux masterplan, so that elliptic can run some elliptic integrals to obtain numbers. 16:35:33 the formula could be made less harsh maybe though 16:35:40 Mm 16:35:47 Would rather see less stealth hit for plate 16:35:48 elliptic: I tried to make Str relevant. You can tweak anytime. 16:35:49 I did not know those times existed, but just imagine it in your mind and you will see how silly it would be 16:36:05 If you have high Str to wear it well, that is 16:36:23 Eronarn: yeah, that seems like it would be neat. Although the current numbers crawl gives are pretty strange 16:36:24 RichardHawk: you don't think it'd be noisy due to it's construction? 16:36:25 It does affect stealth. 16:36:30 I think crossbows have a really high str weight, compared to bows 16:36:33 As is heavy armor near completely locks you out of both casting and sneaking. 16:36:56 Give the option to invest in Str to reduce the stealth penalty. 16:37:06 in terms of the way they actually work, i think a bow should be more strength-intensive 16:37:15 yeah, that's how real bows work 16:37:45 * dpeg likes to get something out of discussions. Plan: elliptic nerfs UC (as main attack, ie. weapon-less attacks). aux attacks don't use UC anymore, but depend on Str (mostly, some can use Dex). 16:38:10 crossbows are harder to carry, bows are much harder to use 16:38:18 dpeg: what about for creatures who have built-in weapons, like trolls? 16:38:46 That is a bit like kilobyte's question on forms. Needs thought. 16:38:48 claws would improve main UC as they do currently, I assume 16:38:56 elliptic: yes 16:38:58 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:39:10 one weird result of this would be that gaining hooves with high dex possibly makes you worse at kicking 16:39:19 a crossbow is certainly a more complicated weapon mechanically... but it could be fired (and even loaded) by a fairly weak person 16:39:27 you need to be extremely strong to use a longbow, on the other hand 16:39:31 Eronarn: worse at kicking? If you couldn't kick before? 16:39:44 dpeg: kicks aren't permitted without hooves? 16:39:59 most/all forms don't really seem like auxes to me 16:40:22 evilmike: that was the whole point of introducing crossbows, no? You could even afford to let two soldiers operate one. Two unskilled soldiers are much cheaper than one good bow user. 16:40:33 elliptic: yes, spells are different. 16:40:49 elliptic: what about using spell power and stat? 16:41:02 dpeg: yeah, crossbows were a slower weapon but could be used by anyone. My comments were mainly about how crawl sees them 16:41:06 dpeg: Also armour-penetration I guess. 16:41:13 evilmike: I know it is anachronistic. 16:41:29 dpeg: don't you think form damage should still mainly be about UC skill? 16:41:42 hmm, I'm not sure that longbows weren't also usable for armour penetration? 16:41:44 ghallberg: the elven longbow was dreaded by knights, it could just kill them from afar, mail or not. 16:41:46 the additional damage from the form could depend on stats if that's what you mean 16:42:04 <|amethyst> where "elven" = "English"? 16:42:04 dpeg: Long bows yes, short bows no. 16:42:15 |amethyst: I assume so. 16:42:30 elliptic: the question is if a Tmut-er should also train UC, or not. I could imagine that Tmut might be useful for all forms till the end if it determines damage output. 16:42:43 |amethyst: sorry, yes. Should sleep. 16:43:06 dpeg: if forms don't use UC skill at all, then Tm becomes a lot more annoying to play because you have to use forms all the time 16:43:23 elliptic: hm, you're the master. 16:43:25 dpeg: with my two-skill proposal you could have the interesting case of stuff like: blade hands uses longblades + brawling, whereas fists use UC + brawling 16:43:26 Tenaya the Fighter (L9 MDFi) ASSERT(prog < scale) in 'skills2.cc' at line 150 failed on turn 8082. (D:10) 16:43:35 and spider form, pure brawling 16:43:47 Eronarn: I'd rather scrap UC than split it in two skills. 16:43:59 so UC transmuter wouldn't be the obvious choice, but it wouldn't be pointless, either 16:44:57 elliptic: okay, so let's leave forms as now: use UC and Str. They need a nerf, though, is what everyone tells me. 16:45:27 dpeg: splitting it into UC/aux is already splitting it, just into skills+stats instead of two skills 16:45:45 a good start could be increasing the spellcasting penalty 16:45:50 dpeg: I'm not sure all forms are overpowered. BH maybe. 16:45:57 and it's quite weird that you would use skills (mostly) to kick, but stats only to use a hoof 16:46:11 blade hands does this fairly well (although its still overpowered) but spider form gives you huge EV, a speed boost, an unarmed boost, and you can cast spells well in it 16:46:17 unless you want to make kicks and stuff be stat based too 16:46:46 evilmike: a flat failure rate, and high tmut skill reducing it :) 16:46:52 spider form, blade hands, maybe statue form could use nerfs of some sort 16:47:04 dpeg: if forms need nerfing, I think it's more interesting to add restrictions rather than nerf damage. Example: animal forms can't throw/evaporate/zap wands, BH meld rings. 16:47:27 we should really add the former anyways for consistency reasons 16:47:29 <|amethyst> it is kind of weird that a spider is better at using wands than a cat is 16:47:51 spider form not being able to use wands would make sense, yes 16:48:09 spider should be able to use 6 wands at once 16:48:15 ice form too. All animal forms should have the felid restrictions 16:48:20 evilmike: I'm not sure about the casting penalties... they aren't that interesting in practice I find, just annoying when you forget about them 16:48:21 8 rings 16:48:34 please apply this to pigform, too 16:48:55 blade hands melding rings sounds like an interesting nerf 16:49:06 ice form seems fairly balanced to me 16:49:18 greatzebu: also not being able to open doors in it 16:49:19 blade hands melding rings would make it pretty bad usually 16:49:28 giving it felid restrictions doesn't seem too necesary either... has anyone even decided what ice form is? 16:49:36 it could just be your normal form but made of ice, or something 16:49:43 evilmike: people decided it isn't 16:49:47 we need to implement melding rings for Oc anyway. So using it for BH would be easy. 16:50:25 evilmike: it's ice beast form 16:50:26 afaik ice form actually turns you into an ice beast 16:50:30 do we? people like OcTm, and melding would only even make sense to apply for spider / ice 16:50:37 Crash while auto-fighting a yak pack (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4589) by Tenaya 16:50:37 elliptic: the problem is nobody knows what an ice beast is 16:50:38 I agree about the restrictions but I also like to get a conclusion. If forms need more thought, can elliptic still go ahead with UC? 16:50:54 Eronarn: I always imagined the ice beasts from diablo 2 16:50:56 hmm, call in the artists? 16:50:58 Or somethign therabout. 16:51:01 alright, so it's ice beast form... do people know what an ice beast is? :P 16:51:04 forms are just a matter of tweaking for balance/sense anyway 16:51:07 evilmike: no :P 16:51:08 ice beasts are a weird icy dog thing 16:51:09 the description isn't much more than "a creature of ice" 16:51:11 with claws 16:51:17 but the claws are blunt 16:51:22 but they can butcher with their mouths 16:51:24 lol 16:51:31 also they can wear hats but not cloaks or something 16:51:42 ??? 16:51:44 http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act5-frozenhorror.shtml 16:51:46 the tile looks like a polar bear 16:51:52 the tile suggests that they are four-legged, which is a bit odd 16:52:12 better to not use tiles when deciding what a monster is... 16:52:32 there are so many weird comparisons to be made once you do that 16:52:44 what about making ice beasts largely formless 16:52:45 like: 16:52:48 ??sky beast [2] 16:52:48 sky beast[2/2]: http://www.creaturespot.com/main/2010/11/12/cephalophant-monster.html 16:53:03 no equipment, has claws, can't eat 16:53:32 dpeg: well, I put UC changes on my crawl to-do list... along with the dozen other things there :) 16:53:36 yay 16:53:51 heck, make them a katamari, made of icicles 16:54:00 elliptic: if you regurgitate the todo thoroughly and cough up a UC nerf in 2012, I'll be grateful :) 16:54:10 sigh, replied to tukkek 16:54:56 Eronarn: They're snowmen. 16:55:16 ghallberg: everyone was careful not to say that evil word! 16:55:46 MOAHAHAHAHA 16:55:51 * ghallberg goes to sleep. 16:58:49 -!- pako_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:00:31 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:00:40 Constriction (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4590) by dpeg 17:03:45 six targets for an octo? o_O 17:04:44 dpeg: ball bython > boa for a tiny constrictor 17:04:48 *ball python 17:05:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_regius 17:05:24 Eronarn: boa would be the big constrictor 17:05:29 I think. 17:05:35 dpeg: you have it as the small one right now 17:06:06 and what as the big one? 17:06:08 03galehar * r4c52e6e5db53 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Revert "Revert "Remove an assert."" 17:06:12 anaconda 17:06:15 which i think should be the big one 17:06:20 they're the biggest constricting snakes irl 17:06:27 anacondas are BIG, I think 17:06:28 ok 17:06:38 Revert "Revert "Revert" Revert! 17:07:04 i'd do ball python as constricting 'small snake', puff adder or garter snake as poisoning 'snake' 17:07:05 Holies Holies Holies -- the pope is in Germany, let's hear the Glad Tidings and do the Holy wiki page :P 17:07:20 Eronarn: could you add to the wiki, please? I am doing Ely right now. 17:11:25 dpeg: made some comments - some suggestions, some questions 17:13:19 'Octopodes can possibly do a lot of damage in the open.' 17:13:22 this will basically never happen 17:13:42 they'd have to be surrounded by not-attack-penalized monsters 17:14:21 you would have to make being constricted affect acc for it to work as something usable against tons of opponents in that way 17:14:47 galehar * jfa8171098aad /crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Revert "Revert "Revert "Remove an assert.""" 17:15:36 if only the original commit message was "Revert assert" 17:19:13 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:19:30 yo dawg 17:20:00 Eronarn: under some temporary conditions (might, berserk) they might be better off in the open 17:20:18 it'll be rare, sure, but it is a tactical option 17:24:33 Eronarn: in Germany, we'd use Royal Python. Is that also possible? 17:25:47 Elyvilon (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4591) by dpeg 17:28:21 greatzebu: I've added a Hive vault to the Mantis issue for you to test with 17:28:33 mumra: awesome, thanks! 17:29:23 i will have a try at adding berserking bees and hungry larvae and we can go from there 17:29:48 You rock! 17:29:49 greatzebu: you also need to code hive being a portal instead of a branch ... 17:30:06 This should be possible by mimicry. 17:30:21 mumra: yeah, also that. the less interesting part :-) 17:32:02 dpeg: royal python sounds like a unique :) 17:32:05 kilobyte: hmm, disabling spawns doesn't work for zotdef yet, but in any case also prevents toadstools... 17:32:15 to americans, ball python sounds 'cute' 17:32:46 Eronarn: the German adder (Kreuzotter) is venomous, but not much. 17:32:57 greatzebu: it's not hard to add a portal, if you need any help with the lua or getting the vault to actually work let me know 17:32:59 adder = Otter, I guess 17:33:18 thanks mumra, i will take a look and let you know 17:33:28 I couldn't figure out the translation of "puff adder" 17:34:57 But wiki told me that puff adder is used for several snakes, one of them (North America) not venomous, but the others (Africa) is venomous. 17:35:13 dpeg: no constriction for guardian serpent, serpent of hell? 17:37:13 mumra: I brought it up, but it was rejected for some reason I forgot 17:37:41 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 17:38:24 Wensley: Hi! 17:40:55 i always thought of the serpent of hell as some kind of dragon 17:41:09 I think of it as huge sea snake 17:41:29 Gyarados, in modern terms 17:41:38 shit 17:41:41 pokemon plug 17:41:45 respect, crawl dev team 17:42:07 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:42:10 i think of it as a source of compiler warnings that i always think about fixing and never do 17:42:19 <3 17:42:41 onwards to Zinnification 17:42:58 you're an implementables machine, dpeg 17:43:50 why would the serpent of hell be a source of compiler warnings 17:43:55 dpeg: hi! maybe today will be the day I get to that sif proposal! 17:44:24 oh, question: is the demigod overhaul planned for the 0.10 release? 17:44:47 Wensley: I was about to poke you :) 17:45:03 Xiberia: assuming i can get the motiviation to finish all the minion definitions and naming schemes, yes 17:45:05 Xiberia: the DG overhaul is in mumra's hands. It will be quicker, and better, if someone plays it. 17:45:20 It runs, I've been a DG:) Give it a try and report about it. 17:45:32 Xiberia: I haven't ever taken a look at the code, but every time i compile I get "mon-util.cc:2195: warning: control may reach end of non-void function ‘int _serpent_of_hell_color(const monster*)’ being inlined" 17:45:39 oh, it's on cdo? 17:45:46 greatzebu: since I cannot code, it's the only thing I can do. 17:45:47 i'll get right on trying it out then 17:46:03 Xiberia: no, have to compile. 17:46:18 ah, bummer 17:46:27 mumra: don't give up! Future demigods need you!! 17:46:29 !coffee mumra 17:46:30 * Henzell hands mumra a mug of irish coffee, brewed by Cerebov. 17:46:30 dpeg: what's taking time is just working out all the minion types for each god; i was thinking about asking for more help on the tavern, since it's now just a case of editing text files 17:46:40 :) 17:46:46 mmm, fiery 17:47:03 dpeg: you say that like it's not super important. the amount of time and effort that goes into the implementables is really great 17:47:16 mumra: do it. If you give folks the feeling that (a) the feature is near and (b) they can shape it, there will be a lot of input. 17:47:28 * dpeg is flattered. 17:47:39 * SamB wishes GDB could call inlined methods... 17:47:49 !coffee dpeg 17:47:49 * Henzell hands dpeg a mug of irish coffee, brewed by Xom. 17:47:51 <|amethyst> greatzebu: that is a bogus warning in this instance... I guess it could be fixed by moving the 'return ETC_FIRE;' outside of the switch, but that would be dumb 17:48:17 To me it is the other way around. I think a little bit about something and then someone has to spend a lot of time actually coding it up. (And I used to code, so I know the drill of edit, compile, link, debug, repeat -- oh, you don't link manually these days :) 17:48:33 |amethyst: i suspected it's not a real problem. shushing the compiler for unneeded warnings is always a pain 17:48:50 <|amethyst> greatzebu: what compiler is this, anyway? 17:49:01 if you're really good, you don't edit manually these days either ;) 17:49:11 dpeg: sometimes it feels like it might be quicker if you did do it manually... 17:49:17 hehe 17:49:35 |amethyst: old version of gcc, needed for compiling ppc binaries for mac 17:49:56 <|amethyst> ah 17:50:43 <|amethyst> I guess it already has all those 'break;'s to shut up compiler warnings anyway 17:51:13 <|amethyst> so deferring to stupid compilers once more would be merely an incremental addition 17:51:47 well, to have it catch you when you do mess up, it can be worth it 17:52:56 -!- greatzebu has quit [Quit: greatzebu] 17:53:02 <|amethyst> I'd be surprised if other functions like _beneficial_beam_flavour don't give the same warning 17:53:19 <|amethyst> pretty much anything that has the returns inside a switch, including a default case 17:53:57 yeah, sometimes what you do is look for the -Wno- switch... 17:54:36 <|amethyst> but you don't want to miss the cases where a non-void function really doesn't return a correct value 17:54:46 <|amethyst> s/ correct// 17:55:44 <|amethyst> and it sounds like it's only ancient gcc versions that give the warning, so maybe it's not worth "fixing" 17:55:53 could be 18:03:31 Who has been doing the Abyss morphing? 18:04:17 any idea why toadstools have non-0 speed? 18:09:17 ooh, fancy maths terms 18:14:18 toadstools are people too 18:14:54 @??fungus 18:14:55 fungus (15f) | Speed: 0 | HD: 8 | Health: 28-62 | AC/EV: 1/0 | Flags: 03plant | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison, 12drown, 13neg+++ | XP: 0. 18:15:17 dpeg: galehar was doing the morphing i believe 18:16:38 @??toadstool 18:16:38 toadstool (11f) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 2-4 | AC/EV: 1/0 | Flags: 03plant | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison, 12drown, 13neg+++ | XP: 0. 18:17:00 might have to rebalance toadstools 18:17:04 seem slightly over the top 18:17:22 well, I'm only asking because I'm trying to figure out how to keep them from killing the player in zot defence 18:17:48 if they, you know, happen to appear on top of the orb 18:17:57 ha 18:18:10 The solution that requires no coding is to butcher the corpses on the orb? 18:18:26 The speed value is probably related to their life/death cycle 18:19:30 -!- pako_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:20:39 It does, via ENCH_SLOWLY_DYING. 18:22:01 FR: unique adder - called "the black adder", with a servant rat called Baldrick 18:24:26 mumra: would it be worth asking Napkin if he can host a DG branch on CDO? 18:25:42 fr: rune mimic 18:25:54 !tell galehar Now that Abyss morphing is in, I recalled an old Lugonu idea of mine: Abyssical travel could use morphing (in both directions). This would make self-banishment less of a no-brainer and we could remove the stupid maxHP cost. Also, it'd leave nicely abyssified spots in the dungeon. What do you think? 18:25:54 dpeg: OK, I'll let galehar know. 18:26:06 Zannick: awesome for V:8 18:26:11 dpeg: indeed. 18:26:30 dpeg: that was actually my initial idea, make a vault that supports it 18:26:40 I means Vaults:8 18:26:46 ah, you mean a subvault 18:26:53 yeah 18:27:01 Zannick: if you submit one, I'll gladly use it. 18:27:07 :D 18:27:14 dpeg: Eronarn offered on his server. Could perhaps help, although for people to contribute it's much better to have a local version so you can quickly make small changes. Right now, the only feedback I can imagine people giving is "where are the minions?" since you'll mostly just get random spawns, I've still only got minions defined for about 3 gods. 18:27:34 Zannick: Hellspider is kind of a rune mimic :) 18:28:32 mumra: so better not to ask Napkin? That'd give you most players. 18:29:58 dpeg: If it's straightforward for him to set up, I don't see why not; but it'll have more testing value once I have at least one minion defined for each god 18:30:57 (of course, if having it running will also encourage people to contribute to minion builds, we would get there quicker) 18:30:58 ok, tell me when you're ready 18:31:04 true 18:31:18 should the zot-damage thing just not be triggered unless the monster is worth XP? 18:31:18 tell me when you want me to ask Napkin :) (No guarantees he can do it, though.) 18:32:06 ok :) 18:32:33 i'll probably blitz a lot of it in one go; right now i just keep poking around at ash's minions and getting to a point where i'm happy with the basic setup 18:34:40 has anyone read the gamasutra piece by the 100 Rogues designer? 18:34:55 kilobyte: why shouldn't toadstools desecrate the orb? 18:35:27 that is, what should be checked to prevent them from doing so? 18:35:39 experience? 18:35:41 toadstoolnes? 18:36:15 valrus: i linked it in here the other day, yeah 18:36:25 what did you think of it? 18:36:54 and do you anything in it is particularly relevant to crawl-dev? 18:38:45 i thought it was pretty interesting, especially reading about his new design/approach for the new game (although i've not played 100 rogues) 18:39:07 SamB: Plantness 18:39:15 100 rogues crashed way too much for me, though I liked what I saw of it ok 18:39:22 100Rogues has great design. He learned a lot from us. Including which features to skip. 18:40:22 definitely some of his issues with roguelikes generally do seem relevant to crawl, although he has the freedom of starting something completely from scratch that sounds like it's meant to be very different 18:40:22 mumra: detected how? 18:40:26 MH_PLANT? 18:40:49 I_PLANT? 18:40:54 hmm, or you could go for M_STATIONARY 18:41:09 or that 18:41:21 probably a better idea... 18:41:31 I have a random question, just something I'm a bit curious about. There's an encompass vault called box_level_dp, the comment calls it "the new box level" 18:41:34 was there an old box level? 18:42:06 ... unless someone summons some sort of actual enemy on top of the orb... 18:42:16 which is stationary 18:42:47 check MH_PLANT and M_STATIONARY (I don't know of any summons which are both) (until my Demigod changes go in...) 18:43:18 hmm actually, looks like I found the answer. There was a an old box_level encompass vault (completely different) but it got removed at some point 18:44:05 evilmike: yes, of course :) 18:44:11 SamB: you should probably just check MONS_FUNGUS, since it's only a problem specifically with corpses rotting, right? 18:44:25 I guess... 18:44:35 evilmike: I don't recall anymore what it looked like, but I was very unhappy with it. So I removed and thought I'd better bring a replacement. 18:45:07 it looks like there were two encompass vaults that were in 0.1 but got removed at some point 18:45:13 they're both rather primitive 18:48:42 evilmike: they had no vault tools back then 18:48:52 but some large vaults exist to this day 18:49:00 it's kind of interesting looking through the old des files 18:49:41 no SUBST lines anywhere! I guess that feature wasn't in yet 18:50:55 no, the only thing they had was 8,9,0 for random monsters 18:52:15 hmm, I think I'm going to take M_NO_EXP_GAIN 18:52:19 it seems safest 18:52:35 I mean, would there really be a harmful monster with that? 18:53:07 SamB: don't think so 18:53:57 CBL with the balls exploding when they run out of duration instead of dissipating harmlessly is pretty cool 18:55:35 SamB: MONS_ORB_OF_DESTRUCTION has M_NO_EXP_GAIN - should IOOD passing over the orb be desecration? 18:55:48 I don't think so 18:56:14 evilmike: who did this? 18:56:21 mumra: no 18:56:42 dpeg: did what? 18:57:26 SamB: Ah, eldritch tentacle segments have M_NO_EXP_GAIN, as do MONS_BALLISTOMYCETE 18:57:46 mumra: but those are the inactive BALLISTOMYCETE 18:57:50 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 18:57:53 and aren't the tentacles part of something else? 18:58:11 SamB: Also, there is another issue. Growing a plant on the orb could be abusable because it makes it harder for real enemies to desecrate the orb. 18:58:25 true... 18:58:31 mumra: It's not abusable 18:58:37 You can already do it and it's intended 18:58:51 RichardHawk: yes, but normally they are made your allies 18:58:51 The problem is the plant will die and the enemy will get on the orb on the same turn 18:58:56 And then you're screwed 18:59:04 How do you get non-ally plants there? 18:59:17 well, he's actually referring to certain fungi 18:59:21 RichardHawk: By temping giant spores into the orb chamber? ;) 18:59:58 Aren't they specialcased to not cause ballistomycetes 19:00:04 You have a summon giant spores ability 19:00:11 SamB: eldritch tentacles are part of the Malign Gateway spell, they're similar to Kraken tentacles 19:00:48 Anyway, ballistomycytes don't do damage do they, except if they be "active" ones? 19:01:56 "desecration" doesn't necessarily imply damage, does it? 19:01:57 evilmike: sorry, evilmike <--> elliptic. Same initial, cannot cope with that. 19:02:13 heh 19:02:30 dpeg: I'm currently working on some CBL changes 19:02:47 -!- Galefury has quit [Quit: Stay sane inside insanity!] 19:02:55 dpeg: you can use the "same length" excuse here too :P 19:03:59 dpeg: making conjured ball lightning explode at the end of its duration was an idea that someone (maybe st_?) suggested that sounded fun 19:04:05 SamB: the problem with M_NO_EXP_GAIN is it's a flag that you won't know what it could be used for in the future and could be used unexpectedly 19:06:56 (perhaps i'm jsut overly cautious but i take flags at their literal meaning and don't like using them for inferred but unrelated meanings) 19:07:01 elliptic: yes, I support everything for CBL 19:10:50 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:46 okay, fine, I'll special case it... 19:16:44 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 19:19:04 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:zin#new_zin 19:20:51 Not good enough for an implementable. I am interested in opinions. 19:21:26 20 turns of imprisonment is pretty high 19:21:34 evilmike: yes, I am generous 19:21:51 evilmike: feel free to recommend something saner 19:21:54 the effect is extremely short (maybe too short) now but consider, it can temporarily neutralize any enemy with no MR check at all 19:22:04 -!- edlothiol has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:22:10 evilmike: yes, it is reliably on purpose 19:22:18 evilmike: so just double duration? 19:22:47 What do you think of piety and vitalise? 19:25:20 Dumping piety for waiting is good... zin nagging you for gold from time to time seems strange... would zin get mad if you don't donate when he asks for it? 19:25:45 there would be no question 19:25:58 When Zin decides it is time to absolve, you lose half your money. 19:26:21 It is combination of conduct and piety gain. 19:26:34 That makes Zin a lot less attractive as an early god 19:26:42 hmm I think I'd take gold off autopickup and wait until he demands protection money 19:26:48 assuming I had plans for zin 19:27:06 if I wanted something in a store, I'd ctrl+f for gold and get just as much as I need 19:27:12 zin already has fairly heavy conducts, losing lots of your gold as a conduct too instead of it being an optional donation sounds like it might not be necessary 19:27:15 it's scummy behaviour but the crawl interface makes it fairly painless :P 19:27:16 evilmike: I will find a way around that. 19:27:18 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27:54 yeah, people already don't like good gods... 19:28:00 SamB: huh? 19:28:02 perhaps having gold donations be required for the proposed mutation curing could work? 19:28:03 anything that makes it undesirable to carry around gold (or desirable to drop gold, if that wasn;t impossible) is going to be gamed 19:28:06 oh and by "protection money" I just meant as a joke... like it's a mafia extortion racket 19:28:28 monqy: I have a lot of experience with anti-gaming. 19:28:40 dpeg: You suggest piety loss for shopping on the wiki page. This would take care of the issue without requiring automatic donations. 19:28:41 although if those are automatic instead of an ability it'd have the same problems, i suppose 19:28:43 dpeg: sometimes it just annoys people... 19:28:54 additionally, it would be very annoying ,yes 19:28:57 a hugely buffed imprison could make it worth it to have zin force you to pay up though, assuming you find a clean way to make it work 19:29:12 SamB: What do you want to tell me? Elyvilon and TSO are good. 19:30:02 evilmike: I just want to get around the current "collect forever, spend all that's needed, then donate" cycle. There are a number of ways to achieve that. 19:30:45 Piety = gold? 19:30:50 You have to buy your way up the ranks! 19:30:54 Zin == L. Ron Hubbard? 19:31:04 That will fly with the gold god but not with Zin. 19:31:05 this won't be stepping on the gold god's toes at all, right? 19:31:06 only without such unreasonable prices? 19:31:16 You don't pay for the powers, after all. 19:31:36 You just get closer to a god-fearing, poor, respectable life. 19:31:43 !lm * type=god.maxpiety cv=0.9 s=god 19:31:43 941 milestones for * (type=god.maxpiety cv=0.9): 179x Sif Muna, 148x Trog, 129x Vehumet, 115x Okawaru, 82x Makhleb, 69x Kikubaaqudgha, 39x Lugonu, 34x Nemelex Xobeh, 33x Cheibriados, 30x The Shining One, 22x Ashenzari, 18x Beogh, 14x Yredelemnul, 10x Elyvilon, 9x Fedhas, 7x Zin, 3x Jiyva 19:32:06 a poor showing by the good gods 19:32:14 Wensley: I am not a democrat. 19:32:22 I've failed to convince people that ely is overpowered :( 19:32:29 i agree with you :P 19:32:29 zin is overpowered too :P 19:32:48 or sanctuary is, at least 19:32:49 !lm * type=god.maxpiety cv=~0.10 s=god 19:32:49 635 milestones for * (type=god.maxpiety cv=~0.10): 113x Vehumet, 113x Trog, 100x Sif Muna, 87x Okawaru, 53x Makhleb, 44x Kikubaaqudgha, 24x Cheibriados, 18x Ashenzari, 16x The Shining One, 16x Yredelemnul, 13x Nemelex Xobeh, 10x Elyvilon, 10x Lugonu, 7x Beogh, 5x Fedhas, 5x Zin, 1x Jiyva 19:32:56 likewise I have failed to buff hill orc invo apt enough, their popularity has fallen by half since 0.9 19:33:03 elyvilon is ridiculous, almost no one seems to realize how effective she is 19:33:17 I know that Elyvilon is strong enough as a god. And I player her enough to know that she's different and fun. There are some issues, but minor and listed. What do I care if she does not get played? 19:33:18 elyvilon is really really good. I haven't tried zin much. I suspect the reason TSO doesn't have so many maxpiety milestones is everyone converts lategame, but they get to maxpiety with another god first, and then die before the conversion 19:33:58 TSO lacks early-game appeal, yes... zin has more of that really 19:34:02 !lg * cv=0.9 god=the shining one 19:34:03 132. Guido the Righteous (L2 SEHe), worshipper of The Shining One, slain by a worm on D:2 on 2011-09-21, with 167 points after 981 turns and 0:06:43. 19:34:08 !lg * won cv=0.9 god=the shining one 19:34:08 12. IonFrigate the Skullcrusher (L27 OgHu), worshipper of The Shining One, escaped with the Orb and 9 runes on 2011-09-07, with 4482300 points after 152928 turns and 7:26:10. 19:34:08 anyway, number of players choosing gods isn't a good metric at all 19:34:11 elliptic: yes, TSO needs more thought than Ely, imo. 19:34:48 well maybe it's a good metric for some things 19:34:49 monqy: no, because of groupthink, and changes need time to settle with the playerbase 19:34:51 but not power 19:34:59 monqy: it is a good metic, imo, but the data points you can choose don't represent what you want 19:35:03 I agree that this is not a democracy, however, players refusing to choose well-designed gods indicates a problem regardless 19:35:03 monqy: a good metric for my nerf booklet :) 19:35:20 hmm this new zin proposal doesn't mention sanctuary 19:35:38 evilmike: unchanged 19:35:50 ah, ok 19:36:02 popular gods may either be overpowered, convenient, or just popular, and unpopular gods may be underpowered, annoying, or just unpopular 19:36:13 Wensley: there are many changes within a single year for Crawl, and players are quite slow to adapt. They give advice as if this was 0.3 := 19:36:45 then perhaps we need more dramatic version numbers 19:36:54 0.9 -> version 22 19:37:06 um, people, hello, this is not Emacs... 19:37:09 "wow those guys sure have changed a whole lot, look at all those numbers!" 19:37:37 s/emacs/chrome 19:37:47 Anyway, gotta sleep. Add your comments, and Zin can get better. 19:37:54 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 19:40:28 or that 19:40:36 chrome is even worse 19:40:55 I mean, at least Emacs only does something on the order of one per year 19:50:00 I will make my own roguelike, and its version numbers will the the precise number of milliseconds that have elapsed since the unix epoch at the moment of the game's release 19:50:07 wcrawl 19:50:09 ??wcrawl 19:50:10 I don't have a page labeled wcrawl in my learndb. 19:50:15 good, it is mine then 19:52:00 ??rcrawl 19:52:00 I don't have a page labeled rcrawl in my learndb. 19:55:59 -!- R18 has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:01:33 * SamB sees that his manual changes went in 20:06:59 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:10:10 Wensley: start at 1, and count downwards; but never quite reach 0 20:11:20 mumra: like TeX and metafont 20:13:54 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:14:22 Debian would *reallly* love having version numbers that start with Ï€... 20:14:57 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:15:37 (of course, that's not happening anyway, since TeX isn't in its own package) 20:22:43 -!- Guest53627 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:23:52 -!- Guest53627 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:30:13 03elliptic * r9962965f1af1 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Increase CBL duration slightly. 20:30:21 03elliptic * ra523d13122b1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-stuff.cc monster.cc): Make conjured ball lightning explode when it times out. 20:33:59 so, I fixed https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4584 20:39:58 I had an idea for a way to make Crawl into a board game 20:40:14 If anyone here has ever played Small World you will immediately see where I am going with this :D 20:40:57 If not, well, in Small World you choose an army based on a random matching of a race + a power 20:41:23 then you play until that army is not feasible any longer and voluntarily go into decline so you can pick a new race 20:41:41 there are 20+ different races and 20+ different powers, and both are shuffled and matched randomly for each game 20:41:56 I am seeing parallels between this and a board game about dungeon crawling ;) 20:42:05 only instead of going into decline, you die, a lot~ 20:42:10 and pick a new adventurer! 20:42:49 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 20:46:16 I even have a name for it 20:46:24 "Dungeon Crawl - Board to Death!" 20:46:32 (not really) 20:53:47 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:53:53 it would have to come with a full set of D&D dice. and one 27-sided one 20:54:06 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:57:32 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:01:02 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 21:10:44 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 21:16:44 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 21:25:12 perhaps a crawl dev should leave a comment on that gamasutra post, asking the author to please direct all fundamental game design flaws to linley :P 21:26:28 oh? we got a gamasutra post? 21:27:02 only barely tangentially 21:27:07 who or what is gamasutra? 21:27:26 mikee_: an exciting new erotic roguelike 21:27:29 http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6490/radical_rethink_how_100_rogues_.php 21:27:30 :D 21:27:46 i hope you meant to write exotic 21:28:02 mikee_: no, although that was certainly implied 21:28:11 mikee_: what have you done so far as a dev 21:28:34 Which lead designer are they referring to? 21:28:54 Wensley, i attempted to direct some 'commits' to my head coder, monqy 21:29:05 did that make any sense 21:29:40 due: is there a line to that effect in the philosophy document? 21:29:54 hah, i like the author's jab at m:tg in the comments 21:29:58 mikee_: no not at all 21:30:34 what if i used the word 'push' somewhere 21:32:02 "Wensley, i attempted to direct push some push 'commits' to my head coder, Eronarn" <-- correct usage 21:32:29 i attempted to push my head coder 21:32:37 I pushed him into lava 21:32:40 well if it was eronarn I can empathize 21:33:30 nah eronarn is cool, swarms almost make up for vampire mosquitos 21:33:40 swarms of vampire mosquitos 21:33:50 fffffffffffff 21:34:08 fungus swarm 21:34:13 mikee_: maybe you could write a CIA-like bot that generates real sounding commit messages from time to time, that way you never have to learn what any of those words mean 21:34:22 hahahaha 21:34:26 evilmike, good idea 21:34:34 pull the messages directly from bad_ideas 21:34:51 Yes 21:35:00 This is obviously the best way for our devs to spend their time 21:35:10 ... registering for gamasutra requires /a fucking address/., wtf? 21:35:13 evilmike, i don't think there's anyone way you can write a bot like that in existing languages 21:35:19 any way* 21:35:20 ttats: gamasutra, Google+? 21:35:23 due: you mean, a mailing address?? 21:35:28 Wensley: yes. 21:35:32 no way 21:35:34 A couple years ago I helped write an IRC bot that could do something like that, actually 21:35:36 it can't be required 21:35:42 mikee_, evilmike, natural language generation is possible. 21:35:44 evilmike, no way, it's impossible 21:35:49 Wensley: "Fields with stars (*) are required". 21:35:53 it would generate semi-random sentences using a fairly basic syntax... it was more like an advanced mad-lib than anything 21:35:54 Totally possible 21:35:54 mikee_: It's not impossible :p 21:35:57 ...wow. 21:36:03 due, evilmike taught me this. it is a trick to make someone code something for you 21:36:07 Ask Tarn Adams 21:36:11 mikee_: Ahhhhh. 21:36:11 "just say it is impossible to do" 21:36:19 mikee_: It is not impossible, but I have more important things to do :p 21:36:24 He's been threatening to unleash a poetry generator on the community for ages. 21:36:25 :) 21:36:40 many of the ideas in bad_ideas could, possibly, pass as english 21:36:58 ??bad_ideas[2777] 21:36:59 bad ideas[2777/3452]: weapons of speed butcher faster 21:37:10 nearly understandable 21:37:23 there was one i remember that was in such poor english, i didn't even get what feature it was for 21:37:31 hahaha 21:37:32 it was like, "make acquirement food you more" 21:39:13 Well, you could import the entire bad ideas and then have random CIA-esque commits. 21:39:27 hello due :D 21:39:52 like "elliptic * ff3db1e /crawl-ref/source (enum.h) Resolve #2777: weapons of speed butcher faster" 21:40:00 Vandal: I still have you on ignore! ;) 21:40:06 @_@ 21:40:14 blame them all on elliptic 21:40:16 (Ironic humour ftw.) 21:40:36 did you see how Crawl could be translated into a board game? (well Sprint really!) 21:40:58 Vandal: No, I'm too busy arguing with someone about starting magic books... 21:41:01 Die die die some more! 21:41:06 oh ok 21:41:16 I would do that 21:41:23 If I had the time 21:41:27 mikee_: You could actually just randomly fetch commits from the ATOM feed and re-write the messages 21:41:33 then re-submit them 21:41:42 so i could be the bot myself 21:41:44 and was in a less strenuous major in college 21:41:58 mikee_: was it bad_ideas[3056] 21:42:22 Wensley, yes =P 21:43:04 *shouldn't* weapons of speed butcher faster? 21:43:07 nearly twice as fast? 21:43:20 No 21:43:24 Because screw you 21:43:28 hehehehe 21:43:30 nearly, because they do 10% less damage to the corpse 21:43:35 Crawl is not NetHack. 21:43:44 mikee_: exactly 21:43:45 it is all we have left 21:43:55 * due has a quiet button and is not afraid to use it! 21:43:57 SamB: obviously, didn't you see the commit just now? 21:44:00 ... craap 21:44:06 DON'T PUSH THAT BUTTON 21:44:18 What did due just do 21:44:27 next time I get muted I need to remember to just unmute myself 21:44:43 Wensley: that works if you have that power 21:45:06 what due just did meant nobody but committers could talk... 21:45:08 due: hey due can I have ops 21:45:17 Wensley: no 21:45:20 :( 21:45:28 SamB: no, what I just did meant that I couldn't talk if I was unvoiced. 21:45:47 I thought everyone with voice had commit access and vice-versa 21:46:01 well, yes? 21:46:09 but I set a +quiet ban, not +moderated. 21:46:11 he muted himself 21:46:13 oh 21:46:19 get with Freenode's IRC modes, dude :p 21:46:27 okay ... 21:46:33 :D 21:46:38 * due goes out to be bitchy to real people, too 21:46:56 one day i'll be a real boy 21:47:09 What 21:47:14 if you want to make the whole channel quiet (except for people with voice/ops) you can set +m 21:47:17 Are you a wood golem now 21:48:00 unique wood golem name pimikeeo 21:48:27 his speech consists entirely of lies, and he attacks you with his reaching nose 21:48:31 ??lies 21:48:32 lies[1/9]: Eustachio says, "Summoning is fun!" 21:54:34 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 22:02:48 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:02:56 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:36:14 03elliptic * r4d0a09add76c 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Fix Statue Form AC. 22:36:31 elliptic: Oh thank god, it was getting hot in there. 22:37:31 no more hectostatue 22:37:53 luckily the guy who has the bug in his game took like 3 hours to clear lair 8, so cdo will update by the time he gets very far 22:38:07 well, people aren't forced to update 22:38:26 due: it took me a second to work out what you meant :P 22:39:08 hopefully there aren't too many more off-by-factor-of-100 bugs 22:43:16 elliptic: :D 22:43:45 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: bedtime, will abuse bug in morning] 22:57:36 lol 22:57:42 AC... 23:01:54 -!- ncampion has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:02:07 -!- ncampion has joined ##crawl-dev 23:06:43 argh 23:06:57 i didn't think making a mimic would be this hard 23:12:33 Zannick: why do you think I ended up giving up on feature mimics? I ran out of time to finish them, and they were a lot of effort 23:15:48 making a mimic? the fabled unique mimic? 23:17:30 is that in the list of stuipid ideas yet? 23:21:57 elliptic: i dunno how to make it a unique 23:22:08 elliptic: but i am making a rune mimic 23:22:09 Zannick: That's actually pretty easy. 23:22:19 Zannick: M_UNIQUE + entry in dat/des/uniques.des 23:23:24 how does a rune mimic work with the rune vaults we have :P 23:23:45 uniques.des? 23:23:58 It would be cool in a Shoals hut. 23:24:02 it's just a special subvault for the nonrune cases 23:24:14 And maybe Vaults:8 23:24:49 well, it's just for vaults:8, as i'm defining it in a subvault 23:24:53 at least at the moment 23:26:03 You're making a mimic via a MONS: call? That ... seesm problematically impossible? 23:28:39 no, kitem 23:28:49 Uh 23:28:53 all the mimics in the lua vaults are done via kitem 23:28:59 oh 23:29:03 Oh right 23:35:28 okay, great, it works now 23:35:56 unfortunately, when identified it's still "a silver rune of Zot mimic" rather than "a rune mimic" 23:41:12 name_replace? 23:43:04 -!- st_ has quit [] 23:44:01 with kitem? 23:44:46 -!- oberstein has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:44:47 -!- oberste1n has joined ##crawl-dev 23:45:07 -!- oberste1n is now known as oberstein 23:46:47 ah, i can just add another subcase to mimic_name 23:48:35 -!- pako_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:50:33 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 23:50:40 -!- pako_ has quit [Client Quit] 23:59:05 -!- due has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:39 -!- Jude has joined ##crawl-dev 23:59:52 -!- Jude has quit [Changing host] 23:59:52 -!- Jude has joined ##crawl-dev