00:05:40 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:08:04 Danei (L5 HEWr) ASSERT(prog < scale) in 'skills2.cc' at line 150 failed. (D:4) 00:08:14 D: 00:08:31 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 00:18:25 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 00:18:43 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:19:40 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 00:44:10 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:50:45 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 00:56:29 !learn delete eino[3] 00:56:29 Deleted eino[3/3]: TODO: Translate rest of the Warwalrus report. Check out RangerC's summon patches. Check out Eronarn's Zin patch for bugfixes. 01:01:42 lol 01:01:42 Napkin: You have 6 messages. Use !messages to read them. 01:01:51 Hi Marc! 01:01:56 you keep your todo there? :D 01:01:59 Moin Eino :) 01:02:07 How's it going? 01:02:52 Looks like I did at some point. (: It's going all right, thanks. 01:03:12 Looks like I can't be arsed to work at work, though. 01:03:25 How are you? 01:39:25 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 02:34:12 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:35:52 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:36:35 hi 02:36:37 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:39:40 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:49:11 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 03:08:42 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-795-gd7df244 (32) 03:13:43 Hi galehar! 03:20:02 oho, so happy to be at work again... DokuWiki day! 03:41:03 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:48:06 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 04:02:20 galehar: cba068c2 adds a 200KB file named "debug.cc" that contains random code from several other files but is not used anywhere 04:03:36 I checked it out from an old commit when I was looking for something using git blame 04:03:54 no idea why commit -a thought it would be a good idea to take it 04:04:04 sorry 04:22:03 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 04:23:07 How about making walking into a monster while wielding launcher+missiles in quiver fire the launcher instead of bashing the monster with it? 04:23:42 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:24:36 dolorous gave in-depth feedback on Ely and Zin but lacks the energy to code 04:24:46 Cool! I mean, on the feedback. :) 04:25:47 Sky beasts are nice.. I just have to flee with this OpAE when I see one. 04:27:28 Keskitalo: why not. There's also a new option to automatically switch between launcher and melee if you have both in a and b slots. 04:28:50 Should perhaps experiment with that.. 04:29:45 dpeg: In private e-mail I guess? 04:30:23 Yes. I asked him what he thinks of the proposals I put on the new Elyvilon wiki page and also if he could fancy coding it (since he seems to have in inclination for gods). 04:30:39 oh my, roguelike radio is pumping out podcasts every week now, huh? this time it's about DoomRL 04:30:45 moin David, Hi galehar 04:30:51 Hi there! 04:31:11 He didn't respond, so I just sent another email when we got substantial Zin feedbackm, this time only asking about his opinion. Will add his comments to the wiki later. 04:31:14 hey :) Did you have time to listen to the episode about brogue? ;) 04:31:24 uh oh, not yet 04:31:45 Did they cover Crawl? 04:31:50 no, not yet 04:32:09 i always find it strange calling doomrl a "coffee-break rl". my coffee breaks aren't longer than 1 h :) 04:32:15 dpeg: Okay, cool! 04:32:24 hehe, i thought the same, bhaak :D 04:32:35 only 2 honorable mentions so far in the brogue podcast (but i didn't yet listened to the other ones) 04:32:55 oh, crawl is mentioned often as some kind of reference 04:32:56 I suppose you can speedrun doomrl in under an hour. 04:32:58 that merits a mention on the press wiki page :) 04:33:51 Napkin: I hope not the same kind of reference as when we mention Angband or Nethack =) 04:33:58 if anyone cares to add it; I'm going home 04:34:11 hehe 04:34:12 cheers! 04:34:15 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:34:15 Eino o/ 04:34:16 Keskitalo: leaving the pub before noon is considered impolite! 04:34:21 lol 04:35:21 well, nethack, angband and crawl seem to be considered as some kind of reference implementation of a roguelike 04:36:44 * dpeg feels a bit uneasy seeing Crawl as a peer in that list 04:36:45 the initiators of RR are angbandies 04:42:15 by the way, switching between a and b - in TOME, there is a class which effectively gets the ability to do this as a free action 04:42:41 it works so well that i'd actually make it the default in any game i made 04:43:18 DoomRL's "Juggler"? 04:43:23 basically that, yes 04:43:40 except in TOME the class that gets it is a melee/archery hybrid 04:44:22 in DCSS i always forget how to assign an item to a letter 04:44:26 it actually encourages you to do both very strongly, since even a tiny amount of specialization in archery will give a huge boost to damage output when using it - this would be true in crawl too, due to the way our skill system works 04:45:33 i think there can be value in having an opportunity cost to switching, and crawl's is lower than some games (partial turn to swap, not a full turn) but i think it's at least worth considering removing it in the case of swaps with ' 04:46:04 (but not wielding things from inventory, of course) 04:46:47 dpeg: we got substantial Zin feedback? link? 04:47:27 Eronarn: Zin asked me to tell you that he loves the Profane Servitors. 04:47:45 Yred's profane servitor (the concept of which is totally 04:47:46 awesome, by the way; you can quote me on that) 04:48:12 The original feedback is on the Zin wiki page, I will add dolorous' comments later. 04:48:57 Eronarn: interesting idea for free swap 04:51:28 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 04:51:34 !tell elliptic There is the powergamer tazoz who explains what he does very nicely and has an idea of balance. Everything there is above my head. Does something make you want to change certain bits in the game? https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1408 04:51:34 dpeg: OK, I'll let elliptic know. 04:51:40 !tell MarvinPA_ There is the powergamer tazoz who explains what he does very nicely and has an idea of balance. Everything there is above my head. Does something make you want to change certain bits in the game? https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1408 04:51:40 dpeg: OK, I'll let MarvinPA_ know. 04:51:54 dpeg: about that - can we make Angels officially zin-ites instead of tso-ites? they're used in all the zin vaults, and preach about zin, but they are still classified as being servants of TSO unless explicitly set otherwise 04:52:39 it would also reduce the weirdness with mennas being an angel, but the only one that works for Zin 04:52:45 Eronarn: er, there's ONE renamed angel in a Zin vault, and he gets a special description that stresses how he is different from regular angels 04:53:13 it's renamed? i don't think it used to be 04:53:22 i don't think he used to get a different description either 04:53:33 were those added just to explain why there's a TSO angel there...? :) 04:54:47 anyways, my main concern is just seeing that Zin gets some visible holies (preferably at least one generic A), it doesn't actually have to be angels (aren't they becoming cherubs eventually, anyways?) 04:56:59 cherubs are a rare high tier one. The 2nd highest tier in source material... 04:57:12 silly multi-winged creatures 04:58:15 four faces, 4 or 6 wings, according to which source you read 04:58:59 this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tetramorph_meteora.jpg is one cherub, not four :p 05:01:24 hehe 05:01:35 oh gee.. 2 new versions of dokuwiki 05:01:47 * kilobyte comforts Napkin. 05:01:48 Napkin: parallel? 05:02:04 I don't really mind having a TSO-daeva, Zin-angel relationship. 05:02:15 thanks! 05:04:14 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 05:07:50 I see someone changed zin_angel to be just a "glowing angel" now 05:08:10 seems redundant, and not distinct enough from regulars 05:09:15 kilobyte: i thought our cherubs were going to be the other, other kind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Giusto_de%27_menabuoi,_adamo_ed_eva,_1376-78,_battistero_di_Padova.jpg 05:09:21 @??cherub 05:09:22 Cherub (16A) | 04UNFINISHED | Speed: 15 | HD: 12 | Health: 84-119 | AC/EV: 10/20 | Damage: 25, 10 | Flags: 08holy, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(128), 10elec++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 08holy | XP: 2087 | Sp: minor healing. 05:09:22 @??angel 05:09:22 Angel (16A) | Speed: 15 | HD: 12 | Health: 84-119 | AC/EV: 10/20 | Damage: 25, 10 | Flags: 08holy, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(128), 10elec++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 08holy | XP: 2087 | Sp: minor healing. 05:09:22 yeah, just renamed angels 05:10:49 Eronarn: unimplemented, they have nothing but an enum and a tile now 05:10:53 Eronarn: the old plan from 2 years ago called for them to use ranged weapons 05:10:59 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:11:18 (the game Dominions 3 has a judeochristian army - giants/nephilim! they summon biblically accurate angels. ophanim are giant wheels that *roll across the battlefield, trampling things, while on fire*) 05:12:11 kilobyte: as i recall, bucklers + slings? but is the tile of the four-headed version? 05:12:21 Isn't "judeochristian" a term that fell into the hands of the nazis? 05:12:23 I always mix up cherub and cupid 05:12:55 I'll push due into updating the holies wiki page. 05:12:59 ghallberg: this is because modern culture has mixed them up. 'cherub', in most contexts, will mean 'cupid' style beings 05:13:01 (And he knows it! :) 05:13:50 dpeg: it's widely used as a term in the US, perhaps it has a different context in germany? 05:15:06 only because Merkel has been using, doesn't make it a discredited term. maybe in dpeg's view but not in general :-) 05:15:14 :p 05:16:49 !tell due megabats don't have a separate tile from vanilla bats, which looks odd. Perhaps we could axe giga bats, taking the tile for megas? It's not that good either (my poor drawing) but at least exists. 05:16:49 kilobyte: OK, I'll let due know. 05:19:22 bhaak: at least our nazis like to speak about "judeochristian" in an attempt to sell their anti-semitism, I think. I haven't seen "judeochristian" in scientific contexts ever. 05:21:56 my mom happens to be deeply involved in those matters (a degree in theology (after one in mathematics when she was saner), mostly philosophy), and browsing her readings I see wordings like "the circle of judeo-christian culture" quite often 05:21:56 nobody said it's a scientific term. it mostly pops up when trying to conjure up an image of a foggy historical tradition 05:22:58 there's a wikipedia article about it so it must be relevant! 05:23:22 from a point of view not so biased towards Christianity, I'd toss in greeks and romans as well, they created a good deal of basis of the "western" culture 05:23:47 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:elyvilon updated with dolorous feedback 05:24:20 the department i am at has several germans, you know - two professors and one student, currently 05:24:29 apparently it has a good reputation with political scientists in germany 05:24:37 kilobyte: definitely, and with the Romans, you're right back into Christianity, actually with the late Greeks too. 05:25:04 okay, good to know -- so I happen to read too much stuff by nazis, should stop that 05:25:30 apparently, they do not have reese's (candy brand) popular in Germany 05:25:37 this seems like a tragedy to me 05:25:59 I'm kind of not certain about this matter (except for seeing this term quite a lot)... I'd say it pops the most in articles about ecumenism 05:26:58 No auto-pickup on seasnake chunk (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4575) by nubinia 05:27:37 Eronarn: Wikipedia's article on Reese says it's made by Hersheys. And you can't use the word "taste" and "Hershey's" in one sentence. 05:27:48 kilobyte: one use of it is to mean 'abrahamic, but not islamic'. but sometimes this isn't something being done for racist purposes, but because islam is actually different in a meaningful way o the discussion at hand 05:27:58 tastes like, mostly, vomit 05:28:10 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:zin&#evaluation_of_zin_s_current_status also updated with dolorous' comments 05:28:11 kilobyte: the chocolate isn't great, but the peanut butter is 05:28:19 Guess I have to make an implementable for Elyvilon now. 05:28:50 when I visited the US, there were two things about food that struck me the worst: the non-existence of edible bread, and junk they call "chocolate" 05:29:11 kilobyte: but guinea pig vomit and okapi vomit are worlds apart! 05:29:19 kilobyte: did you try american cheese? :) 05:29:33 kilobyte: that's how i feel every time i live switzerland :-) 05:29:39 s/live/leave/ 05:29:46 hey we have good bread, just don't buy the white crap 05:30:09 I got an aunt who emigrated to Köln, been to her several times as a kid. Every time I've been there, we made a most-of-the-day trip to Stollwerck's factory. And they show the ways to make chocolate, and what the ingredients are. 05:30:18 bhaak: your bread isn't the kicker, though. 05:30:30 US junk has not a single of the basic ingredients. How can it be called "chocolate"? 05:30:44 It is a semantic exercise to the eater? 05:30:48 dpeg: says the guy from the country where there is pumpernickel and sliced bread that isn't toast 05:31:12 Eronarn: I don't remember trying any cheese there, can't say a word 05:31:16 We should drop pumpernickel over the Goldküste. 05:31:30 kilobyte: don't! They have good cheese but imported, of course. 05:31:32 kilobyte: there's strong government regulations as to what you can call things in the US. they just happen not to correspond with reality 05:31:42 dpeg: there are probably enough germans there that would eat it :-) 05:31:48 e.g., being able to label something as 'ground beef' if it's only a third meat by weight 05:32:23 Eronarn: didn't they pass a law removing all requirements for the label of "chocolate" in like 2000? Before, it had to be at least made from a small percentage of cocoa. 05:32:39 'It looks bad but passable... until you learn that—according to the Alabama law firm suing Taco Bell—only 36% of that is beef. Thirty-six percent. The other 64% is mostly tasteless fibers, various industrial additives and some flavoring and coloring. ' 05:33:05 kilobyte: no, "chocolate" has to have cocoa butter and cocoa liquor in it 05:33:25 other things can be called "chocolate flavor" or similar 05:33:31 yes, i believe BlastHardcheese is right 05:34:27 I kind of remember that in the US the law used to require 30% (can't remember the exact number) of cocoa before 2000, when it was rescinded 05:34:43 oho! dokuwiki is officially on github now?! <3 05:34:54 time of pain is over! 05:34:56 http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyGuidanceManual/ucm074446.htm 05:35:00 The Commissioner advises that such products as chocolate pudding, made from cocoa rather than chocolate, may continue to be labeled as "chocolate pudding" because the consumer has long recognized that this product may be made from cocoa and does not expect it to contain chocolate. A chocolate bar, on the other hand, is expected to contain chocolate and may not be made from cocoa without being labeled as a "natural chocolate flavored" or "chocolate flavored" 05:35:04 dpeg: did you try "Zopf"? 05:35:06 xom laughs 05:35:53 ah, kilobyte, perhaps the last two paragraphs on that link are what you mean 05:36:42 'it can be called chocolate as long as it's been called chocolate for a long time without people noticing it doesn't have any in it' 05:38:39 nice :p 05:40:57 i wonder if they would make a law explaining that gingerbread may be called this even though there are no redheads in it? 05:41:10 it appears there are many laws for "chocolate", "dark chocolate" is more specific. Just found that in the EU it must have at least 35% cocoa solids and 43% cocoa in both forms (solids or butter), while in the US it's 0% and 15% respectively. 05:42:13 and, that "Hershey's process" adds butyric acid which is a big part of vomit's smell. So my feeling wasn't that much off :p 05:44:13 in the USians defense, their "italian" food beats what you can eat in real Italy thoroughly. Their pseudo-mexican food kicks ass, too. 05:45:36 america, fuck yeah, comin' again to steal all your recipes 05:46:28 -!- ldierk_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:47:32 it's not stealing if there are immigrants that bring it into the country :) 05:48:05 but they've certainly stolen and mangled snow white and any other fairy tale in existence 06:03:25 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 06:07:48 -!- oberstein has joined ##crawl-dev 06:15:01 back 06:15:57 -!- ldierk_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:17:13 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:20:32 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:22:42 ober the Grand Master (L22 VpMo) ASSERT(prog < scale) in 'skills2.cc' at line 150 failed on turn 77072. (Vault:8) 06:26:10 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:49:18 !lm * crash -log 06:49:18 1596. ober, XL22 VpMo, T:77072 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/ober/crash-ober-20110920-112240.txt 07:02:04 I think he raised both spellcasting and invocation at the same time. When spellcasting levels up, it triggers calc_mp which check invocations which hasn't been leveled up yet 07:04:29 not sure how to fix this (appart from removing the assert of course, since there was nothing really wrong here) 07:04:37 ah, ok 07:04:51 capping the skill? Returning the big number anyway? 07:06:20 just returning the big number would work 07:06:28 maybe dprf a warning in this case 07:06:38 since it's a bit rare 07:06:47 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:07:19 on another note, I implemented the decimal in the skill screen, but gitorious is angry at me 07:07:36 (maybe because of the debug.cc incident :) 07:07:48 at me too 07:11:32 also, potions of experience crashes the game. Haven't had the time to debug it yet, will try to do this afternoon 07:15:25 -!- Fail_Bot has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:24:29 dpeg: not much to say about tazoz: he was using 0.8 tornado combined with makhleb healing, which made a character invincible 07:24:50 this sort of thing is why tornado was nerfed :P 07:26:53 galehar_: incidentally, I tried out decimal XL but I didn't like how it looked... it might be worth it if we could figure out something to do with a bit more room, though 07:28:43 elliptic: not sure what. 07:28:53 maybe it's not worth bothering 07:29:21 have to go 07:29:23 -!- galehar_ has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Discuter simplement. Partout.] 07:29:30 there are a few things that could be nice to display somewhere, like runecount or class, but I couldn't come up with anything I like better than the current arrangement 07:33:20 that vpmo is learning random unknown/unused skills for some reason :/ 07:38:24 Poisoned a warg with poison staff (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4576) by nubinia 07:43:38 btt (L24 MDFi) ASSERT(prog >= 0) in 'skills2.cc' at line 149 failed. (D:25) 07:44:39 !lm btt type=crash -log 07:44:39 10. btt, XL24 MDFi, T:105081 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/btt/crash-btt-20110920-124336.txt 07:46:22 btt (L24 MDFi) ASSERT(prog >= 0) in 'skills2.cc' at line 149 failed. (D:25) 07:47:18 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 07:48:09 btt (L24 MDFi) ASSERT(prog >= 0) in 'skills2.cc' at line 149 failed. (D:25) 07:48:16 btt (L24 MDFi) ASSERT(prog >= 0) in 'skills2.cc' at line 149 failed. (D:25) 07:48:28 btt (L24 MDFi) ASSERT(prog >= 0) in 'skills2.cc' at line 149 failed. (D:25) 07:48:40 btt (L24 MDFi) ASSERT(prog >= 0) in 'skills2.cc' at line 149 failed. (D:25) 07:49:00 btt (L24 MDFi) ASSERT(prog >= 0) in 'skills2.cc' at line 149 failed. (D:25) 07:50:05 !tell galehar having the skill at 27 can make progress go below 0; I can't fix right now as gitorious still hates me 07:50:05 kilobyte: OK, I'll let galehar know. 07:51:49 when skill is at 27, get_skill_progress should just return 0 07:51:49 galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 07:51:53 !messages 07:51:53 (1/1) kilobyte said (1m 48s ago): having the skill at 27 can make progress go below 0; I can't fix right now as gitorious still hates me 07:54:20 ah, galehar_ quit, galehar did not :p 07:54:36 obviously, you're right at 27.0 08:11:53 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: class] 08:19:15 any feedback regarding Monk's piety boost? If it's meant to stay, FeFi needs to be changed to Femo, right? 08:21:38 just because FeMo would be even more powerful? No. Because it differentiates them somehow? Maybe -- I'm not sure if it's enough, but if it is, I'd nerf FeMo by a lot (it used to get far higher skills, this is why people preferred Mo over Fi) 08:23:09 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:26:05 I don't see why it needs a special nerfstick. 08:26:38 Fe isn't exactly one of the most powerful races 08:29:10 !lg * t11 win s=race 08:29:10 232 games for * (t11 win): 16x Deep Dwarf, 15x Kobold, 13x Spriggan, 13x Deep Elf, 12x High Elf, 11x Hill Orc, 11x Naga, 11x Troll, 11x Demonspawn, 11x Mountain Dwarf, 10x Minotaur, 10x Merfolk, 10x Centaur, 9x Halfling, 9x Vampire, 9x Ogre, 8x Sludge Elf, 8x Mummy, 6x Human, 6x Demigod, 6x Ghoul, 5x Kenku, 4x Felid, 2x Grey Draconian, 2x Red Draconian, 1x Green Draconian, 1x Pale Draconian, 1x Bl... 08:29:11 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 08:29:37 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest49866 08:30:03 heh, indeed, the very last by wincount 08:30:10 (dracs had 8) 08:30:58 elliptic: but he points out how to keep abusing in 0.9 and 0.10. Shouldn't we nerf the storms as well? He mentions how the game gets more boring with those. 08:31:24 nerfing the storms isn't a bad idea, yes 08:31:32 elliptic: why is background relevant on the starting screen? 08:31:43 it is sort of nice to know when watching someone 08:31:58 elliptic: isn't the title more relevant? 08:32:28 title doesn't always tell you much 08:32:41 if they have a spellcasting title, say 08:33:08 kilobyte or anyone else: I'm happy with Monk nerfs, but I'd ask you to leave the piety thing in, unless it really doesn't work. 08:33:14 background certainly isn't important, but I do think it would be nice to have there if we had enough room... obviously it should go near the race/class 08:33:28 -!- kerio has joined ##crawl-dev 08:33:30 -!- kerio has left ##crawl-dev 08:34:08 elliptic: you should get this kind of information from the screen that lets you watch someone 08:34:37 I guess, yeah 08:35:21 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 08:37:54 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:41:48 idea: let there be a command to press while speccing that lets you view their dump 08:41:58 this would also help with a lot of 'show me your inventory' stuff 08:42:25 Eronarn: ideally, all of %, Ctrl-O, i, Ctrl-P etc. would work while spectating 08:42:49 dpeg: that would be great but it's a little bit more ambitious, no? :) 08:43:18 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:45:50 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 08:46:19 -!- Fyren_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:46:27 -!- Danei has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:46:27 -!- Fyren has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:49:23 -!- Danei has joined ##crawl-dev 08:50:04 Eronarn: yes, probably 08:50:15 If you want some semi-unspoiled reading fun: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2592&p=30792#p30792 08:53:52 interesting that the semi-unspoiled player felt that berserking was something to use very sparingly 08:54:27 it's a natural feeling 08:54:54 With your first berserkers, you use it liberally and notice how quickly you use the ability again. After that, you'll be more conservative. 08:55:06 perhaps it means that the costs of invocations aren't being communicated clearly enough 08:55:14 that player seemed to have been playing his first berserker 08:55:30 first troglodyte, anyway, with no indication that he'd got berserk before from a different source 08:55:41 (or she, I guess; hard to tell from the information given) 08:56:55 You can safely assume it's a male :) 08:57:13 I don't like making that sort of assumption 08:57:28 one of the webforums I'm on, people end up having to pronoun each other a lot, so there's a gender field 08:57:39 but strangely, people seem to assume male users are female just as often as the opposite 08:57:45 so I think it's doing pretty well at gender balance, there 08:57:49 From time to time we discuss how to communicate piety/foor costs but it's not easy. Obviously, I don't want a number. 08:59:37 hmm, the solution to avoid numbers on weapon damage in Ace was to give enough comparisons in descriptions that you could work out the relative damage of two weapons just by looking at the descriptions of them 09:00:10 kilobyte: cool take on the HS. 09:00:32 I guess we could use the ability descriptions. 09:01:10 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:03:55 there are a lot of descriptions like "about one and a half times as powerful as a longsword" in order to make that possible 09:04:09 so you probably would think it's tantamount to using numbers 09:07:05 with your skills, this demon blade deals an average of sixteen dot seven damage per ten absolute unit of times to an orb of fire. 09:07:13 dpeg: see? no numbers ;) 09:08:00 * dpeg slaps galehar with a slide-rule. 09:08:07 dpeg: color food/piety costs? 09:09:14 Eronarn: was all in the debate, I guess we should use a list of adjectives (the speech task force has improved the Stealth and MR adjectives already). If it says that "Brothers in Arms needs a lot of piety.", that'd probably suffice. 09:10:08 piety already has small/moderate/large/very large i think 09:10:08 MarvinPA_: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 09:10:57 hmm, so we have AceHack's "it deals slightly more damage than a normal dagger to large creatures", NetHack's "it does the same damage as it does in 1st edition D&D, go look it up", Angband's "it does 342.04 damage per turn against....", and Crawl's "???" 09:11:05 I'm not sure if any of the approaches are ideal 09:11:06 Food: Breakfast, Brunch, Lunch, Dinner, All-You Can Eat Buffet 09:11:48 dpeg: I'd still like to see "how many times you could use the ability in a row right now before dropping a piety breakpoint" as the piety measurement 09:11:52 as that's the value players really care about 09:12:23 ais523: not all abilities you want to use in a row, though... 09:12:25 ais523: that's giving away information about your current piety, though 09:12:47 elliptic: that's a secret? can't you dead-reckon it from messages? 09:12:51 no 09:12:57 I don't see any reason why your current piety should be secret 09:13:03 you only know approximately what it is 09:13:07 piety costs have a range 09:13:19 piety costs have a range, piety gains are randomized too, etc 09:13:30 so you will end up either having to display a big range, or a mean (which gives a lot of information) or the like 09:13:40 is there any good reason for piety to not be known exactly? that's like having MP not known exactly 09:13:50 or making damage ranges so random that you can't tell how damaging an enemy attack can be 09:13:55 (wait, Crawl actually does that one) 09:14:18 because we don't want to give people numbers for piety, since then we have to give them numbers for everything about piety 09:14:50 percentage progress to next level, just like skills used to be, would be fine 09:14:51 ais523: knowing MP exactly wouldn't be that useful if spells had randomized costs 09:15:14 ais523: I agree, that is a reasonable measure. 09:15:18 yes it would (case in point: NetHack's magic marker uses have randomized costs, and yet IDing the exact number of charges in a marker is often considered a high priority) 09:15:26 (how many uses left before * loss) 09:15:28 dpeg: uh, what about my objection? 09:15:54 ais523: magic markers are very different from spells 09:15:58 also piety costs are randomized so it doesn't even make sense 09:16:03 elliptic: I am reading, reading :) Yes, you're right, but we could randomise the output too! 09:16:20 magic marker would be like if you had a piety score at the start of the game and then couldn't gain piety at all 09:16:27 it would either be misleading or give too much information, IMO 09:16:40 "It takes about 16 Brothers to go from ***** to ****." would be a reasonable statement. 09:16:55 This avoids refering to current puiety. 09:17:09 16 uses? 16 allies? what if the SD is, say, +/-3? 09:17:09 dpeg: sure, if it doesn't refer to current piety then it might be okay 09:17:35 dpeg: this would work a lot better if the piety breakpoints were evenly spaced, though 09:17:50 elliptic: I'd use the piety break point where you get 09:17:53 the power 09:18:21 what if we just express it in terms of how many uses you'd have to use to risk losing the ability 09:18:29 taking into account the random piety 09:18:35 just an idea, personally I am sure that players develop a good feeling for this on their own rather quickly 09:18:42 so if it's 1d3+5, then use 8 as the value 09:19:18 dpeg: what do you do about abilities you gain at ******? and it seems like it will be really confusing because of stuff like ***** range being twice as large as **** 09:19:19 So: "You can call your Brothers at least 16 times before dropping from ***** to **** piety." ? 09:19:34 elliptic: it is all too complicated. 09:19:42 'at least 16 times' is too specific 09:19:43 dpeg: that's not a true statement though! 09:19:55 if you are barely at *****, it will take one Brother to drop to **** 09:20:22 yes 09:20:50 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 09:23:24 if each * meant the same thing, we could say something like "16 Brothers costs one * of piety on average", but I really don't see a good way of doing this with the current piety system 09:24:07 we could make each * mean the same thing :) 09:25:06 specifically, adjust the values of the breakpoints so they're equally spaced, and then figure out how to replicate current achievement of breakpoints by modifying the gain formula 09:25:17 How about a warning if you may lose a piety star from using the ability once 09:25:32 RichardHawk: a warning is bad... it should be a scale 09:25:49 eronarn: well, we still wouldn't be able to replicate the current behavior exactly 09:26:20 elliptic: no, but we could get reasonably close, and some small loss in accuracy is fine if it makes it way more consistent 09:27:02 I'm all for making each * of piety mean the same thing, but that would mean a fair amount of work rebalancing everything 09:28:15 since even if you made piety gain reach the breakpoints at the same time, you'd be changing the effective costs of abilities 09:29:07 i guess we should probably do it at the same time that we look at gift timers 09:29:38 There are good reasons for non-linear increase. 09:30:20 If the abilities have descriptions (there was a confirmation right here), that is enough. 09:30:52 if we have the stars be linear, but gain be consistently non-linear (rather than the current system), that could be fine 09:31:42 kilobyte: have you seen the performance patches on Mantis? 09:32:42 Eronarn: sure. If someone sets up a consistent system like that, it could be used. There'd be still many cases, as we have various piety gain types. 09:32:53 kilobyte: 4473 09:34:55 that could be a fun project. i could use more practice doing mathematical analysis 09:49:58 (re: #4473) This doesn't respect coding convention! m_str_cache=" ";m_str_cache+=tagwanted;m_str_cache+=" "; 09:50:25 appart from this stupid nitpicking, it seems like an interesting low-level optimization 09:55:06 galehar: people have been reporting that they are gaining skills they aren't using (like bows without ever having seen a bow) 09:57:57 galehar: seems to indicate a proficient coder to me. We should give him more tasks :) 10:04:31 galehar: optimization only proven for tis unreadability, thu far 10:05:14 what sort of variable is m_str_cache? 10:05:24 this is C++, so that code could mean basically anything 10:05:33 if it's a string, it looks like a dubious thing to do unless tagwanted is very short 10:14:52 * SamB wishes that git checkout had a "--soft" option 10:15:19 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 10:15:27 (or --mixed, maybe) 10:15:56 or that there was a way to specify a branch to "git merge" *into* 10:17:45 galehar: the problem with gaining random skills seems to have something to do with 9e8371a... which seems like a bad idea anyway 10:17:56 training percentage for unknown skills is pretty important, I've found 10:18:31 otherwise you have no real clue how much you need to dance them in order to gain them reasonably quickly 10:20:17 all right, I'll revert it, once gitorious accepts pushes again 10:20:26 how can you tell is caused by this commit? 10:21:09 well, rwbarton seemed to think so in ##crawl and it looks plausible to me... you are the expert though :) 10:22:12 it is plausible yes 10:22:34 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 10:23:30 unknown skills showing up then going away while being unselectable all the time tends to trigger many questions. Not sure how to handle it. Maybe just better documentation? 10:23:34 I guess I can try actually reverting that commit locally and testing, since it was a fairly easy bug to replicate 10:25:23 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 10:25:29 that easy? Starting up a new game and finishing D:1 I didn't notice any rogue skill training. 10:26:38 The comments in 4473 explain very carefully what the patch does and why. 10:26:50 were you a human? it seems to only give rogue skill training for skills you have a positive apt in 10:26:54 try a high elf 10:27:23 also, of course you can see the training before you actually gain the skill in debug mode, which helps 10:29:08 * SamB thought that the high-intensity background/blink bit was *configurable* to do either thing 10:29:47 Players are raving about granted reaching, in fact they're thanking us effusively. 10:29:50 * dpeg digs out his nerf booklet. 10:31:22 galehar: if I start a HECj and run around D:1 killing things, I pretty quickly get something like "Trained Summonings by 18." 10:31:46 and it shows up in the points display in the skill menu 10:32:09 dpeg: perhaps they just haven't realized that monsters get it too 10:32:15 galehar: better documentation, or prevent them from disappearing once they've actually had a measurable share in the training 10:32:35 Eronarn: I think they have overcome the shock of gnoll packs and finally realised they can use it too,. 10:33:31 even if they've gone back to 0% training 10:33:46 preventing them from disappearing could be good, yeah... it is pretty rare that you will exercise a skill once or twice and not gain it from that 10:33:56 SamB: could even keep them at 1% training 10:34:10 that'd might be nice, too 10:35:39 if you prevent them from going below 1% training, that means if you accidentally exercise a skill once, you might gain the first level thousands of turns later. 10:36:07 Is that actually a problem though= 10:36:19 dpeg: we should replace reaching with general weapon effects, and have polearms get repel :) 10:36:25 The spent xp is fairly tiny, after all. 10:37:18 I'm still not really sure that the current system of requiring dancing to gain a skill is good, anyway 10:37:28 sure, but some players will complain that they have gained a skill they have never used because by the time they gain it, they will have forgotten that they have used it once long ago 10:38:03 what about the idea of displaying skills at 0 (and letting people train them) if people have the possibility of training them? 10:38:39 like, shields skill if you find a shield you can wear, bows if you find a bow, magic skills if you find a spell in that school, etc 10:39:19 what about just being very generous with the first level of a skill? 10:39:32 elliptic: that was my initial proposal. Put some restrictions on training 10:39:34 since it currently feels like the most artificial part of the system... I'll do stuff like wear a shield and let non-dangerous monsters hit me a lot and then take it off and not put it back on until I have decent skill 10:39:55 can only train shields if wearing one... 10:40:40 galehar: that's a different idea that could be good alternatively, yeah 10:41:18 the problem with that is that it doesn't work well for sfor stuff like spells 10:41:25 hmm, it'd be kind of nice if we could define a macro (or two) to give us printf warnings in just one or two places... 10:41:32 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:41:41 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:skills:training#restrictions 10:41:53 ... and use that for all our printf-style functions/methods 10:42:22 for spells, it should just be a matter of having memorized a spell in that school 10:43:03 elliptic: I like galehar's proposal better. In my opinion, we should try to not clutter the m screen with unused skills. 10:43:05 I'd try to keep this stuff really simple... don't worry about things like whether the spell is at a given success level 10:44:11 elliptic: that's a good idea 10:44:13 dpeg: it wouldn't be much clutter I think 10:44:17 okay 10:44:36 i don't like the idea of 0 skills, though 10:45:39 elliptic: the behaviour you mention for shields, doesn't it indicate shields are wrong? 10:45:53 dpeg: the idea should be that if a skill might be useful for someone given the current state of the character, we display it and let them train it 10:46:21 elliptic: so if I pick up some darts since they're glowing, I get Throwing? 10:46:42 then throwing shows up as a 0 skill that you could train for as long as you are carrying the darts 10:46:56 Do you still need to carry darts around when it's at 1+? 10:47:01 and if I drop them and never threw them, the skill disappears? 10:47:11 dpeg: yes 10:47:14 dpeg: yes 10:47:26 jle: that could go either way 10:47:32 of course, I might have them thrown just thrice... (this actually happens) what then? 10:47:50 personally I think you should be able to train any skill that is at 1 or higher with no restrictions, but I could see keeping the restrictions 10:48:00 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:48:14 dpeg: well, if you are in manual mode and haven't had throwing on then the skill is still at 0 10:48:41 otherwise, you'll have exercised the skill, so it might increase to 1 eventually (or not), as things currently work 10:49:00 if it doesn't make it to 1, it will return to being invisible if you drop the darts 10:49:25 starting skills are slightly randomized (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4577) by reid 10:49:46 One objection to the shields only being raised by having a shield: what about the large bone plates mutation? 10:49:50 I think keeping the restriction past L1 might be interesting. Especially for shields and armour. 10:50:02 Would that keep the toggle for "having a shield"? 10:50:10 (...also, objection's the wrong word. Sorry there) 10:50:11 torokasi: probably, yes 10:50:24 * Torokasi nods. Right. 10:50:32 <+elliptic> if it doesn't make it to 1, it will return to being invisible if you drop the darts 10:50:39 can we make gaining level 1 occur faster? 10:50:53 so you rapidly gain at least one level when you start using an item actively 10:51:07 eronarn: part of the proposal is to make level 0 skills selectable, focusable, whatever... when they are trainable at all 10:51:08 You used to be able to go around it by VDing shields against a rat after killing a unique. The new system can allow enforcing the use of a shield to train it. 10:51:59 Eronarn: cost of L1 has already been divided by 4. 10:53:29 elliptic: i'm thinking about newer players here, mainly - making it clear that gaining the new item has let you train a new skill 10:54:11 eronarn: well, the new skill will start showing up at 0 on your skill screen... this seems like an improvement 10:54:21 kilobyte: around? 10:55:31 hm... one thing that tome added recently that's really nice: they show changes to your character sheet / inventory since the last time you looked at it 10:56:25 it could be good to notify if there's some change in what can be trained based on what you just picked up 10:56:44 but in a way that won't bother you if you pick up darts on d:20 10:59:50 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:02:01 elliptic, kilobyte: SA posters are really unhappy with the Chei and Dr armours changes. Many of the comments are tourettal, as usual, but some are actually not. 11:02:45 someone is unhappy with the chei changes? I haven't heard anything but praise for it on IRC 11:03:06 any specific dislikes? 11:03:15 or is it just "this is bad" + lots of swearing? 11:06:17 wow, yeah 11:06:23 the chei changes are really good 11:06:33 I'm not even sure what's changed 11:06:35 * ais523 asks Henzell 11:07:21 hmm, seems the learndb hasn't been updated yet 11:07:47 you become slower as you gain piety, instead of having to ponderous-brand your armour 11:08:13 http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3432171&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=47 bottom third starts it 11:08:46 things i could see goons being mad about: 1) no octohat stuff 2) losing ability to randartize armor 3) worrying about not having fine control over ponderousness 11:09:02 This is overlaid with another thread where players complain about not being able to choose Dr colour 11:09:14 not having fine control over ponderousness also seems like a big improvement in theme 11:09:37 my experience with chei was always that correct strategy was to ponderize as much as possible rather than this stuff about "building it up slowly" 11:09:39 Chei changes feel solid and I generally support it even if losing fine-grain-ness is somewhat irky, it's- what MarvinPA said, to me. Dr changes are something I'd have to try in practice but it makes me wince a bit, it's a decent hit to resistances on average I think? but it's a cool differentiation from other races soooo. 11:10:12 MarvinPA: i agree, but some people are content to put aside theme and mechanics 11:11:22 elliptic: not everyone is as good a player as you :P 11:11:45 You also don't usually have a full set of equips ASAP 11:11:55 as far as the draconian stuff goes, personally i think it might be more interesting to improve their armour apt so they can more reasonably use dragon armour, since there's not many races that make good armoured hybrids, and none at all with restricted slots and decent armour apt 11:12:07 i think kilobyte posted on the wiki that he was considering reverting the change too 11:12:11 Oh, awesome. So you can actually use randarts with chei now. 11:13:01 people on SA seem quite confused about octopodes of chei 11:13:08 in that they seem to think this was the main reason for the changes 11:13:16 whereas it really really wasn't :P 11:13:39 Octopodes are new, chei changes are new, how can you fault their logic :p 11:13:56 it sounds like SA would approve if we lower the stat boosts/resistances, though! 11:14:07 "The use of artifacts + stat boosts seems very overpowered." 11:14:07 MarvinPA: soft gloves, soft boots, soft hats, no metal armor for dracs? :) 11:14:26 No metal armor for draconians would... be interesting. 11:14:33 No shields at all, then? 11:14:45 I thought that lowering the stat boosts/resistances a bit to compensate might be good, yeah... kilobyte disagreed I think though 11:15:06 Torokasi: shields are fine - i mean just no ringmail or higher 11:15:15 about dracs, I'm still pretty neutral about the changes 11:15:16 Eronarn: Isn't that how it is now anyway? 11:15:40 but I think we could at least try the current state of dracs for a couple weeks before changing them again :P 11:16:22 yeah, i'd say it's still worth giving a try for a bit 11:16:42 The stat boosts kinda make Chei. Maybe drop the resistances for something else - with artifacts now that's pretty doable - but keep the stats IMO 11:16:49 it seems like zot is a good source of branded cloaks now, as a result :P 11:16:51 Torokasi: apt changes would make it different. also soft would mean less AC 11:16:55 although i didn't find preservation, sadly 11:17:23 oh, I didn't even notice that monster dracs come with cloaks because my last game was an octopode :P 11:17:25 both less AC max, and later finding your max AC 11:17:36 since soft is rarer 11:17:52 True, Eronarn. mmm. 11:18:46 We could make an explicit exception for Dr body armour: restricted (only dragon hide/armour) 11:19:17 restricted to soft also means you can't use many randarts/ego ones you find - which is of course interesting 11:19:44 elliptic: I am confused about the reports on Chei power. Invariably, there will be "overpowered" alongside with "useless". I think kilobyte considers the god on the weaker side. 11:20:08 people have always been sort of confused about chei power, really 11:20:47 dpeg: i dunno, i find no robes really weird personally 11:20:52 even spriggans can wear robes 11:21:00 I consider Chei "gameplay-changing" which sorta throws out power as a measurement point 11:21:04 a lot of outspoken people on ##crawl like to call him awful, but I really don't think chei is that weak 11:21:07 they have no wings (or wing stubs) 11:21:20 for some purposes, the stat boosts are incredibly good 11:21:26 elliptic: they aren't calling him awful because he's weak 11:21:33 they're calling him awful for thematic reasons generally 11:21:36 eronarn: sure they are 11:21:48 Perhaps they don't operate him properly. 11:21:59 ok let me rephrase: i haven't heard people calling him awful because he's weak 11:22:22 elliptic: Chei is stressful to play imo, not weak as such. 11:22:44 dpeg: i don't think wing (stubs) blocking robes is a good idea because that means it's very hard to justify any future wing mutations 11:22:47 like for DS 11:22:48 Usually not walking in combat is a big divergence from normal play. 11:22:49 I think there is a place for gods like Chei or Beogh or Nemelex. Not every god should take that much control of your game, but some can. 11:23:31 Eronarn: I am not convinced that DS will ever get wings. For some reason, nothing came out of that when we discussed DS mutations last time. 11:23:33 dpeg: if we did the hard/soft division, we could make cloaks hard and mantles soft. and let dr (and winged DS, etc.) wear mantles, but not cloaks :) 11:23:38 -!- R18 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:26:38 Wings would be an interesting DS mutation, and if we do a hard/soft division it could lock out hard body armors as a body slot? 11:27:14 Torokasi: players already complain about passive mapping :) 11:27:34 Torokasi: we could make monstrous DS do that. monstrously *big* 11:28:04 ... people complain about passive mapping? 11:28:15 though, more flexible might be good 11:28:16 ...why? 11:28:24 like: deformed body as a body facet - less AC from hard, but not barring 11:28:31 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:28:31 Should jory be given !sil? 11:28:38 he's silenced in his own vault 11:28:41 and has a bunch of spells 11:28:51 Torokasi: don't know. Guess they complain about everything. 11:29:21 I opt to blame the internet. 11:29:22 R18: he's just a vampire. How to explain the !sil? 11:29:34 I dunno :( 11:29:46 @??jory 11:29:47 Jory (04V) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 110 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 40, 1505(vampiric) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(168), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 3835 | Sp: crystal spear (3d37), mesmerise, blink, brain feed, pain (d17), vampiric draining. 11:29:54 but it seems a but counterintuitive to give him a bunch of spells 11:29:57 bit* 11:30:14 mesm and possibly brain feed could plausibly work going through silence 11:30:32 the other ones not so much... 11:30:36 -!- MarvinPA__ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:31:11 Although I assume most of the time people just kill the spectres anyway 11:31:18 dpeg: he is a vampire librarian of sif 11:31:31 ... hah. that'd be amusing. 11:31:59 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:32:41 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 11:32:49 FR: library golem 11:33:32 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:33:56 http://magiccards.info/di/en/169.html 11:34:47 oh wow, there are floor mimics? 11:35:08 should leave an empty void when you kill them :P 11:35:18 -!- MarvinPA__ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:36:14 MarvinPA: i'd love a 'bottomless pit' that works like lava 11:36:18 except reflavored 11:37:16 still need acid pools, too, so acid krakens 11:40:46 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:41:44 * Torokasi still wants an eldritch kraken, which when killed stops malign gateway from working, but I'm weird 11:43:10 cute unique idea: a cheery rainbow kraken (each tentacle a different color) who wants to hug you 11:43:30 Add it to the list with the nice fiends. 11:43:39 ... 11:43:43 >_> 11:43:50 neutral, but will constrict you 11:48:32 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: 'nother class] 11:48:44 wrt current sif piety gain: 11:48:47 < Whales> turn off all casting skills (except maybe Spellcasting), store up tons of XP, worship Sif, turn back on the 11:48:50 skills, victory dance away my huge store of XP until I receive the spell points ability, spam the ability 11:48:54 until my invocations is up to 8; often I can do all that immediately after joining Sif 11:48:57 Suggestion: Shafts are now floor mimics. 11:49:09 "The floor mimic swallows you whole!" 11:49:11 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 11:49:22 "Since it doesn't have a stomach you end up on the floor below. 11:49:23 " 11:49:44 Except we don't have an EXP pool still, do we? Or is it hidden now? 11:51:04 HUm. 11:54:57 mimics should be mimicking something the player is interested in 11:55:01 Torokasi: right, it was a complaint that he could no longer do this :)i shouldn't have said current, sorry 12:06:00 -!- Galefury has joined ##crawl-dev 12:11:05 hi 12:11:14 -!- petete has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:24:39 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 12:26:59 R18: that's a recent vault of evilmike (i think) 12:27:05 it's a wizard prison 12:27:34 there's something that can teleport the spectre away and "disable the security system" 12:27:49 ??psyche[2] 12:27:49 psyche[2/2]: YOU ARE VIOLATING AREA SECURITY!!! 12:28:37 MarvinPA: I think at this point you're virtually guaranteed to slow any monster in melee range. 12:29:12 Oops, mischan, sorry. 12:30:02 mumra : the vault with the gloom? 12:33:16 R18: I'm not 100% sure but your description sounded like the vault 12:33:42 mumra: no, this is jory's vault 12:33:59 ok 12:35:32 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 12:42:50 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:43:03 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 12:46:53 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:47:08 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 12:49:05 -!- ZorbaBeta has joined ##crawl-dev 12:49:52 -!- ZorbaBeta has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:50:05 -!- ZorbaBeta has joined ##crawl-dev 12:50:38 -!- ZorbaBeta has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:52:35 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:55:06 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 12:55:41 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:55:53 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 12:56:55 -!- ZorbaBeta has joined ##crawl-dev 12:58:04 -!- ZorbaBeta has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:59:21 -!- ZorbaBeta has joined ##crawl-dev 13:00:20 -!- ZorbaGama has joined ##crawl-dev 13:01:17 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:01:23 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 13:04:07 -!- ZorbaBeta has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:05:17 -!- ZorbaGama has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:05:23 -!- ZorbaBeta has joined ##crawl-dev 13:06:38 What could have rotted my Health from 52 to 51 by D:9? 13:07:01 If you're undead, poly wand maybe. 13:07:03 mosquito 13:07:04 people were reporting random rotting on ##crawl 13:07:09 so probably a bug 13:07:16 no mosquito 13:07:30 elliptic: any idea where it comes from? It is useful to upload my game at this point? 13:08:09 I have no idea... I guess it could have something to do with HP from fighting if the smooth skills didn't handle that correctly, but I don't have time to look at it right now 13:08:16 -!- ZorbaGama has joined ##crawl-dev 13:08:37 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:08:40 ah, I have Fighting 0 since some time 13:08:47 can we quiet Zorba somehow? 13:10:15 -!- ZorbaBeta has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 13:10:40 -!- ZorbaGama has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:10:43 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 13:11:20 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:11:21 -!- ZorbaBeta has joined ##crawl-dev 13:11:57 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:12:35 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 13:13:46 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:14:01 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 13:15:50 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:15:51 -!- ZorbaGama has joined ##crawl-dev 13:16:22 -!- ZorbaBeta has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:21:02 i've been seeing it too, i thought it was from mutation since i was in lichform when i noticed it 13:21:16 hmm? 13:21:17 but yeah, seems like random rotting is happening 13:21:18 -!- ZorbaBeta has joined ##crawl-dev 13:21:36 Did Draconians get there slots changed? 13:21:40 -!- ZorbaGama has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:21:43 *their 13:23:36 -!- ZorbaBeta has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:23:39 -!- ZorbaGama has joined ##crawl-dev 13:24:40 Is fuzzing on CDO yet? 13:25:01 -!- ZorbaGama has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:25:11 ZChris13: yes 13:25:15 ghallberg: don't know 13:25:25 -!- ZorbaGama has joined ##crawl-dev 13:25:28 someone knows the irc command to quiet? 13:27:18 /mode #channel +q hostname 13:27:19 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 13:28:11 rawrmage: does it accept regexes (substring would suffice here)? 13:28:20 -!- ZorbaBeta has joined ##crawl-dev 13:28:28 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:28:54 or you can ask chanserv /msg chanserv quiet #channel user/host 13:28:54 yea 13:29:03 perhaps that'll do, many thanks! 13:29:07 think you can do Zorba*!*@* 13:29:44 still getting random crashes 13:29:46 i don't know if that'll prevent joins and quits, though 13:29:56 for that you might have to ban, not sure 13:29:58 kilobyte says its mimics 13:30:09 also its somehow related to autotravel :/ 13:30:19 or at least it seems to be 13:30:32 -!- ZorbaGama has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:30:36 tiles btw, with travel delay 0 13:30:50 People spend a lot of turns in autotravel 13:31:09 -!- ZorbaBeta has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:32:03 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 13:32:31 regarding balance: DsTm of chei is pretty easy so far (mid lair) 13:32:43 got a kickass set of mutations though 13:33:23 -!- Fail_Bot_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:34:19 -!- ZorbaBeta has joined ##crawl-dev 13:35:11 new chei is cool, and stronger than old chei early on due to lack of equipment requirements 13:35:26 evaporate nerf is pretty minor, but noticeable 13:35:34 dpeg: yea, looks like that doesn't work for joins/quits 13:35:42 you could do a client-side ignore? or a ban 13:36:38 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:37:19 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 13:38:27 -!- ZorbaGama has joined ##crawl-dev 13:38:32 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:38:56 -!- ZorbaBeta has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:39:18 -!- ZorbaBeta has joined ##crawl-dev 13:40:29 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 13:40:35 -!- ZorbaBeta has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:43:03 -!- ZorbaGama has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:45:10 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:45:49 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:49:14 can I have some help finding something in the source code? 13:49:52 * dtsund salutes 13:50:03 lol 13:50:21 Was that a yes? 13:50:26 I'm not sure 13:50:27 Sir yes sir 13:50:30 Oh okay 13:50:39 um... at ease soldier 13:50:59 Where is the sticks to snakes stuff? 13:51:11 I need to know what determines what snakes you get 13:51:26 Then I was going to fix up the learndb 13:52:51 Hm. 13:52:58 Let me reboot to an OS that has grep. 13:53:04 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 13:54:40 ZChris13: spl-summoning.cc line 195 13:54:59 ah 13:55:07 spl is what the spells are under 13:55:08 okay 13:55:21 does "feature mimics" include stair mimics 13:55:43 ZChris13: well it starts deciding at line 236 13:56:22 st_: in what context? i assume so 13:58:43 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 13:59:01 in the context of the recent commit removing them from slime 14:00:20 it should do, i think. on the grounds that the slime walls will damage mimics 14:00:36 stairs are features 14:00:37 dtsund: mumra found it at spl-summoning.cc 14:00:46 feature mimics are anything that isn't an item mimic 14:00:55 currently anyways, i guess there could be gas mimics 14:01:09 air elementals? 14:01:18 no 14:01:23 oddly enough, those submerge 14:01:28 That was a bad joke. 14:01:36 i was wondering how that worked until i ran across it looking something else up 14:01:42 Ah 14:02:01 Don't tell the playerbase, some of them might get confused. 14:02:25 it would actually be sort of cool to have an Air Form spell that submerged you... in the air 14:02:32 (yes, i know about the historic one) 14:02:49 Do you think you could make a version of that that wasn't broken? 14:03:20 you would have to cancel submerge to attack anybody 14:03:38 ZChris13: Was just about to say that. 14:03:47 snakable 14:03:49 ZChris13: well conceptually think of it like this: if you are in a room #..~~~..# with water, then if you were submerged in the water it would instead be #~~..~~# from your perspective 14:04:02 what? 14:04:16 come again? 14:04:59 basically, treat it as if the air were a separate level 14:05:12 that's just an inverted part of the normal level 14:05:25 it depends how deep the water is 14:05:33 Can I get a glossary here 14:05:35 you'd probably actually observe it as ###...### 14:06:07 oh 14:06:11 or like ##\../## where \/ are meant to be ramps 14:06:16 You mean floor turns to walls 14:06:23 and water turns to floor 14:06:25 kind of, except that's for the case of water 14:06:32 air would be like that but different 14:06:37 well, you're in a hole in the ground 14:07:48 basically i'd do it like you can't walk over water or air or through monsters, but they treat you as submerged if you aren't adjacent to them 14:07:57 Make sure you don't accidentally reinvent Air Walk. 14:07:59 and severely decrease LOS range 14:14:10 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:14:14 Hi! 14:14:19 hi 14:14:37 galehar: is there any chance that getting Fighting 0 causes rotting? I had something like this. 14:14:59 what? 14:15:22 what do you mean "getting fighting 0"? 14:15:59 people have been mysteriously getting 1 HP of rot and I was wondering whether it could have anything to do with accidentally randomizing an HP calculation 14:16:30 yes 14:16:46 There was surely no standard rotting effect around. 14:18:06 hp calculation doesn't seem to be randomized 14:19:05 OcNe, in case it matters 14:19:12 on CDO 14:19:48 dpeg: did you had the fighting skill yet? 14:19:52 no 14:20:03 was darkgrey Fighting 0 14:20:23 later I got -- it might have been exactly when getting it, hard to say 14:21:27 galehar: also DgWn crashes on start... 14:28:09 @??lich 14:28:10 lich (15L) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 57-99 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 1513(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(293), 02cold++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 4052 | Sp: b.cold (3d29), paralyse, greater demon, animate dead, iron shot (3d34), teleport self / b.draining (3d24), animate dead, summon undead, throw frost (3d.. 14:30:36 Potion of experience crash (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4578) by lgvoelkernet 14:32:56 Should Sticks to Snakes generation take weapon power, brand, etc. into account? 14:33:02 @??killer klown 14:33:02 Killer Klown (15@) | Speed: 13 | HD: 20 | Health: 129-171 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 3012(klown) | Flags: evil, see invisible, regen, !sil | Res: 06magic(160) | Vul: 08holy | XP: 6835 | Sp: blink. 14:33:11 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:34:42 I think it should factor in weapon mass, spell power, and maybe the enchantment. possibly even the branding. 14:35:08 On second thought that might encourage people to pick up every club, bash plants with them until ID'd, and just save the good ones for snaking 14:35:20 it should be very small 14:35:32 ZChris13: if it will be very small, drop it 14:35:34 so you're rewarded for burning enchant weapon scrolls 14:35:37 elliptic: reverting 9e8371ae fix random skill gains, DgWn crash and !exp crash. Too bad I can't push :( 14:35:49 What is wrong with git? 14:36:04 Git is what's wrong with git. 14:36:07 Permission denied (publickey) 14:36:08 * dtsund mutters 14:36:13 happens sometimes 14:36:16 gitorious is what is wrong with git in this case 14:36:39 yes, it's a gitorious problem. git doesn't have any problem, it's 14:36:41 awesome 14:37:07 git 1 : dpeg 0 :) 14:37:32 really? You didn't fix your problems yesterday evening? 14:37:39 but it bothers me how bows, spears, and staves are don't provide any benefits over clubs 14:38:00 galehar: sure, but I will succumb to the git meister real soon 14:38:03 wait spears have the same weight as clubs 14:38:07 ZChris13: I don't think this is true 14:38:17 It is 14:38:24 The EV values of monsters are very low -- are they modified in some way? 14:38:37 ZChris13: you get better snakes from GSC, for example. 14:38:44 One check 14:39:19 if (item_mass(wpn) < 300) mon = MONS_SNAKE; 14:39:21 else mon = MONS_WATER_MOCCASIN; 14:39:24 same with AC (doing the constriction numbers now) 14:39:29 you get better snakes for really big sticks (giant clubs and GSC), and for poison arrows 14:39:47 Actually, if power is 100, you don't get better snakes for poison arrows. 14:39:57 poison arrows only guarantees you'll get snakes or water moccassins 14:40:06 instead of small snakes 14:40:08 It always goes to the snakes/moccasins case then. 14:40:17 Nothing wrong with that. 14:40:17 dpeg: I don't think they are modified, but monsters might typically have higher accuracy than players do... I'm not sure 14:40:34 elliptic: I just wonder if they the @?? output in my formulas. 14:40:57 *if I can use the @?? output 14:42:48 there is very little benefit I can see from using larger clubs once you're past power 40 14:45:05 You can get an anaconda from a blowgun if you have high enough spellpower 14:45:18 >90 to be exact 14:45:50 at the exact same odds as if it were a GSC 14:46:13 ZChris13: why are you concerned with S2S? Did you use and it wasn't good enough? The reports so far have been that it is a useful spell. 14:46:35 Do octopodes attack with all tentacls? 14:46:57 It could be a fun way for me to start coding for crawl 14:47:08 bbbbut the implementables 14:47:24 I need to be passionate about it. 14:47:35 some of the implementables are scary :P 14:47:51 And I think I know exactly how I could do it too 14:48:13 or at least in a general sense. 14:50:45 but first I need to know how to calculate spell power 14:55:44 can't start vpwz or some other combos (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4579) by reid 15:00:22 would spell power be in spl-cast.cc? 15:00:50 yes, calc_spell_power 15:06:41 ZChris13: two words on balance: Using enchantment is bad as we have to protect players from themselves. And S2S should not dish out top tier snakes, it is absolutely okay if the spell is replaced by other spells later on. 15:07:05 Yeah 15:07:17 Should brands other than poison do anything? 15:07:38 I think venom should have an effect for weapons too 15:08:22 also 0004402 isn't fixed 15:08:23 ZChris13: not sure it's worth it. Finer decision tree for weight would be okay, I think. 15:08:44 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:08:56 It might take me a while to fix this, I have a lot on my plate right now 15:09:19 am easily distracted 15:10:56 I need to get a git client? A development suite? What else. 15:11:39 ZChris13: what's your OS? 15:11:45 Windows 15:11:58 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:12:11 you need msysgit 15:12:29 what are those type of programs called? 15:12:47 if you want an IDE, theres eclipse. Some people use MSVC. 15:12:58 I need an IDE yes. 15:13:03 I think I want one... 15:13:18 I have never set up coding on my own before. 15:13:28 msysgit is a suite of programs. There's a bunch of unix tools and compilers (msys) and there's git 15:14:08 there's also codeblock as an IDE 15:15:57 what do you mean 4402 isn't fixed? I'm testing right now. I try to drop the robe I'm wearing, I get "You will have to take that off first." and no turn is used. 15:17:25 I think is burns 3 turns when I attempt to remove my boots and my gloves 15:17:40 according to show_game_turns 15:17:57 12301.5 when I start 15:18:12 12304.5 afterwards 15:18:36 -!- epyon has left ##crawl-dev 15:18:46 I need to check it with a monster in view 15:18:49 oh right, if you select several items it takes time 15:20:23 hey, dropping a wielded weapon takes only the time to unwield it. Might be ok. Make sense that dropping what you have in hand is faster than dropping what you have in your pack. 15:21:15 so how many problems are smooth skills causing? 15:21:19 looking forward to trying that 15:21:30 galehar: did you see minmay's funny rant on the wiki? 15:22:17 Galefury: I made one stupid change which causes all kind of problems and crashes and I can't fix it :( 15:22:24 appart from that, it seems to be mostly ok 15:22:36 still have some details to address 15:22:38 dpeg: no 15:24:27 dpeg: yeah, read it. Doesn't make much sense since the system is still very beta... 15:24:52 yes, didn't expect such a blunder from him 15:25:12 but he's often overtly and overly critical 15:26:45 dpeg: yeah, it's getting worse 15:26:59 seems like he's really starting to hate us 15:27:17 don't worry, just take whatever good he utters and ignore the rest 15:27:30 yeah, I usually do that :) 15:27:48 I thought b0rsuk would go this way (at some point he shouted ballistic nonsense at me) but then he came back after a few months with more good ideas :) 15:28:00 Are you referring to the Abjuration thread? 15:28:14 no, skill fuzzing wiki feedback 15:28:58 I don't think minmay has ever suggested any interesting idea. He just whines. 15:29:12 he did make some vaults 15:29:25 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 15:29:44 ZChris13: I have an MSVC solution for editing Crawl in the VS2010 Express, which is a pretty nice GUI and free. Then I use msysgit for compilation etc. 15:41:27 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 15:50:49 -!- Textmode_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:01:10 Can someone reboot Henzell? He's being verryyyy sloooowwww 16:02:25 Also, does Crawl still use the Mersenne Twister? 16:04:49 -!- Textmode_ has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:05:29 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 16:16:31 Same question as before: how many tentacles are used for Oc auxiliary unarmed attacks? 16:22:00 i think they just get one aux attack but they can use it even with a two-handed weapon, or one-hander + shield 16:22:03 but i'm not certain 16:23:16 I think it's not really specified how many tentacles are used but they have a single aux attack for tentacles 16:23:30 they also have a beak attack, but we'll have to remove it 16:24:36 http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6490/radical_rethink_how_100_rogues_.php 16:25:10 interesting article, dpeg is mentioned! :P 16:28:05 the guy whining that there's too much stuff in crawl? 16:28:08 it's him! :P 16:28:15 heh 16:28:32 I'm not sure I agree with the comments about roguelikes 16:29:18 some are a problem with specific roguelikes, but none really with the genre in general 16:30:50 Yah, the three things he identifies as problems with the genre are very much not problems with Shiren, which is curious since he'd only *just* mentioned that game. 16:31:31 in PMD, I think you need to grind to do well, but you need to be constantly thinking even while grinding 16:31:43 as you get only half experience if you beat a battle without using consumable spell charges 16:32:08 (in my own PMD-alike, I'm planning to give /no/ experience for defeating a battle without consumables) 16:32:34 i should really try shiren sometime 16:33:10 and pokemon mystery dungeon for that matter 16:33:23 shiren isn't bad 16:33:23 due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 16:33:26 !messages 16:33:26 (1/1) kilobyte said (11h 16m 55s ago): megabats don't have a separate tile from vanilla bats, which looks odd. Perhaps we could axe giga bats, taking the tile for megas? It's not that good either (my poor drawing) but at least exists. 16:33:29 Keith from 100Rogues is a huge Crawl fan. I spoke with him about design a lot. He breaks free from the roguelike chains, but I don't think that is bad. 16:33:37 kilobyte: sure 16:34:09 due: today, the status of cherubs was lamented about. Help the wiki! :) 16:34:13 MarvinPA: Pokémon Mystery Dungeon is well-designed, /but/ the difficulty curve, while a good one (gradual increases, etc), starts incredibly low 16:34:24 and takes about 80-85% of the game to get up to an interesting difficulty level 16:34:31 most people get bored before they reach that point 16:34:38 (it's well into the postgame) 16:34:49 ais523: does it address children? 16:34:59 dpeg: yes 16:35:33 well, Pokémon fans are mostly children, and they're obviously trying to appeal to them 16:35:57 * dtsund does not envy the task given to someone who needs to make a roguelike appeal to children 16:36:13 it's not a true roguelike, except in the bonus dungeons 16:36:15 make it cute 16:36:24 ais523: that's what I expected. You need different curves for adults and children. 16:36:28 frequent savepoints, etc (although rather further apart than you'd expect in a non-roguelike game) 16:36:43 no permadeath? 16:37:01 losing throws you back to the last savepoint, with the loss of all your money and half your items 16:37:05 most people just reload from save at that point 16:37:23 so it's effectively permadeath 16:37:49 as the punishment for a loss is worse than just reloading in almost all circumstances 16:38:55 gitorious downtimes are rare, but they are damn long 16:39:07 [22:38:15] can someone unban me from ##crawl-dev? got my internet connection working properly again 16:39:54 two of the bonus dungeons are true roguelikes: you can't take anything in from outside (not even character stats), they have no savepoints, and losing throws you out of them 16:40:01 which means that the dungeon /itself/ is a true roguelike in a game that isn't 16:40:26 dpeg: gah but I am at work! 16:40:48 due: I am just the reminder. :) 16:41:18 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 16:41:35 ais523: nothing wrong with that 16:41:52 indeed 16:42:04 well, when I talk about PMD, I normally mean Zero Island South, which is one of those bonus dungeons 16:42:05 By the way, the constriction wiki page now has formulas and all details I could come up with. Everything might be fully off the mark, but it should be codable. =) 16:42:07 and is brutally hard 16:42:34 testing testing 16:42:37 thanks again :D 16:43:02 hopefully that will be a *very* rare occurance. stupid internet connection 16:43:34 dpeg: good work! 17:03:11 Since when do we show woundedness of monsters? 17:04:03 have we ever not? 17:04:17 yes, it was always hidden 17:04:24 what? 17:04:38 there always were colored thingies in the monster list, right? 17:04:47 yes, but not for zombies 17:04:59 oh, you mean zombies/skeletons 17:05:01 right, we don't tell zombies health 17:05:37 ah, sorry 17:05:45 I said monsters in the first question 17:05:56 But it is okay, my terminal has trouble with sleeping zombies 17:06:15 try tiles ;) 17:07:27 Is it possible to request tiles anywhere? 17:07:38 RichardHawk: not... really 17:07:40 shouldnt there be some max damage for constriction? 17:07:41 Weapon-displaying wights would be really convenient 17:07:45 we have some awesome artists 17:07:59 but unfortunately tiles is really a "we get what we get" kind of thing 17:08:03 otherwise it quickly gets silly, especially early on 17:08:10 I heard a rumour that damage to undead monsters reduced their max HP, and that's why you couldn't tell how wounded they were (because they were always at full health) 17:08:13 something like HD or 2xHD? 17:08:34 RichardHawk: you can report missing tiles on the wiki 17:08:41 I heard this rumour as well. 17:09:07 I was about to post a link to the "Tiles missing for 0.10" but the page hasn't been created 17:09:09 Galefury: why? It is slowly building up. 17:09:21 Galefury: no, early monsters have low HD. 17:09:25 yeah, but to arbitrary values 17:09:34 how about we just have a "Tiles missing page". We don't need versioning for it. 17:09:45 which means that small snake can take out your 15 or so HP really quickly 17:09:49 galehar: nobody cares if poison stacks until you're dead. 17:10:00 It is a small snake. Kill it. 17:10:11 mhh, that has been annoying me a bit about poison 17:10:14 it can get really silly 17:10:22 with early bees for example 17:10:33 but oh well, dying is fine i guess 17:10:43 The numbers may be off, but I chalk this upon preemptive whining, Galefury. Players will know very well which monsters are constricting, just as they know about hydras, jellies etc. 17:10:44 Is player poisoning level uncapped? 17:10:52 Learn cure poison! 17:11:08 got to find it first... 17:11:09 Dying is awesome. Everytime a player dies, the devteam celebrates. 17:11:15 VM starts with it 17:11:26 i think i have never played vm 17:11:27 not sure why 17:11:32 but i do sometimes learn cp 17:11:46 basically always if i dont have rp and have found it 17:11:53 its quite good 17:12:17 * Adeon scribbles a note to his notebook 17:12:42 * galehar drinks to the dead players 17:12:48 i had a really annoying death against a queen bee a while ago 17:12:52 i just couldnt hit it 17:13:05 and it kept poisoning me 17:13:08 then i killed it and died 17:13:24 (also a tp scroll brought me right back next to it) 17:13:40 well, not quite, but close enough for the fast bee 17:14:31 also: monster poison level is capped, why? 17:15:02 This happens. We're not allowed any sympathy with hapless players, unfortunately. It's in our devteam contracts, signed by Kikubaaqudgha and illustrated in the ichor of minor demons. Let me find it, ah yes: "No mercy, no clemency, no remorse." 17:15:17 i know :) 17:15:35 and i did actually have some very nice deaths to poison 17:15:49 its just bees that piss me off really 17:16:23 bee rooms specifically 17:16:28 request new wight tile (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4580) by galehar 17:16:37 the poison level is capped, but not the damage from it 17:16:48 ah, thanks, galehar :) 17:17:27 dpeg: hey, you're not supposed to tell them about that! 17:17:28 can a target be constricted by multiple enemies? 17:17:37 (player, naga summon from shadow creatures) 17:17:40 And every player has hated monsters, that's part of crawl's charm, makes it sweeter when they die. Can't stand corroders myself. 17:17:47 it doesnt really make sense physically 17:18:06 dpeg: you'll have to do 100 hail yredelemnuls as penance :/ 17:18:24 im pretty sure everyone hates corroders 17:18:33 theyre like mutators, except boring 17:18:50 Galefury: only one constrictor, I think it says so somewhere 17:19:31 jelly slurping is awesome, it creates an agreeable sense of tension, and give birth to Jiyva 17:19:59 slurping is fun, just corrosion is boring 17:20:06 compared to mutation 17:20:41 but its fine i guess, still much more interesting than not having it 17:20:47 I just wish going J was more plausible. 17:20:49 dpeg: a cap to the damage sounds reasonable. At some point, it can stop increasing (not stop dealing damage). 17:20:56 clouded (L5 OgPr) ASSERT(prog < scale) in 'skills2.cc' at line 150 failed. (D:4) 17:21:01 Having an altar inside Slime before S6 would give a reason to explore the branch 17:21:19 !lm . -log 17:21:20 20193. clouded, XL5 OgPr, T:3398 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/clouded/crash-clouded-20110920-222051.txt 17:22:16 mhh, limit to one constrictor is mentioned for the player, but not for monsters 17:22:26 st_: I think you levelled both spellcasting and invocations at the same time. We could fix this if gitorious wasn't down... 17:22:28 this is relevant with sts and shadow creature summons 17:22:50 should I BR it? 17:23:02 galehar: I thought about that. Instead of a cap, I'd use diminishing returns. But I wanted simple formulas for a start. 17:23:26 I actually had written down the stepdown function already but then settled for something simpler. 17:23:27 but i guess its clear enough 17:23:46 st_: no need. We're aware of it and how to fix it. I bet kilobyte has a fix locally. If not, I have. 17:24:30 dpeg: ok that's fine then. 17:24:50 dpeg: you should make an implementable with a link to the wiki 17:25:38 'night everyone 17:26:27 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: zzz] 17:26:45 night 17:28:29 clouded (L5 OgPr) ASSERT(prog < scale) in 'skills2.cc' at line 150 failed. (D:4) 17:30:45 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0.2/20110902133214]] 17:31:25 -!- Galefury has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:34:18 Hm, the Zin page has some nice ideas, I should clean it up. 17:34:42 But I wonder: If I make implementables for Elyvilon and Zin, will anyone take them up? 17:35:06 Then again, Demigods and Vehumet found pious patchers. 17:36:42 Same with constriction... it's a pretty big meal. 17:41:35 Left-click does not unwield spear (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4581) by Tiber 17:42:03 I think I have a Zin plan... comes tomorrow. 17:42:04 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 17:48:06 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:51:33 galehar! Damn you for making Abyss exits disappear, damn you! 17:53:53 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 18:07:11 -!- Sequell has quit [*.net *.split] 18:07:14 -!- MakMorn has quit [*.net *.split] 18:07:21 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 18:07:43 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 18:18:20 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:37:38 -!- mumra has quit [Quit: offski] 18:58:54 -!- Kek has joined ##crawl-dev 19:04:18 i've got a patch ready that adds autooffer option @ init.txt. i wonder if i should update the options guide and init.txt example, but dont want to do the extra work if it's gonna be rejected,or something 19:06:34 ccould someone help? i mean take a look at the patch, or should i send it without updating the docs... 19:27:14 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:42:20 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:16 zotdef: Repeat alters are not much fun (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4582) by SamB 20:00:25 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:06:23 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:07:21 Autooffer (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4583) by tukkek 20:11:46 -!- Kek has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:24:40 -!- Guest49866 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:26:12 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:09:42 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:15:07 heteroy the Thaumaturge (L10 DECj) ASSERT(you.exp_available >= 0) in 'skills.cc' at line 879 failed on turn 11371. (Lair:3) 21:24:28 -!- Torokasi has joined ##crawl-dev 21:27:47 zotdef: toadstools shouldn't desecrate the orb (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4584) by SamB 21:40:13 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:46:20 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 21:47:30 -!- Torokasi has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:52:27 -!- ixtli_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:52:50 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:52:50 -!- ixtli_ is now known as ixtli 22:08:45 Shenanigans (L4 DDNe) (D:3) 22:25:55 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 22:29:49 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0.2/20110902133214]] 22:40:08 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:43:02 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:43:37 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 22:47:06 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 22:57:37 -!- elliptic_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:04:58 -!- Gretell has quit [*.net *.split] 23:04:58 -!- mikee_ has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:05 -!- Fail_Bot_ has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:10 -!- kilobyte has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:13 -!- jarpiain has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:17 -!- Xiberia has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:17 -!- varmin has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:18 -!- elliptic has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:19 -!- Vandal has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:20 -!- SamB has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:26 -!- greensnark has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:29 -!- Adeon has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:30 -!- rawrmage has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:32 -!- Zannick has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:35 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:37 -!- jle has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:39 -!- Eifeltrampel has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:39 -!- Napkin has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:40 -!- rax has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:42 -!- Chousuke has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:44 -!- evilmike has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:45 -!- Twilight13 has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:48 -!- ussdefiant has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:49 -!- petete has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:50 -!- R18 has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:50 -!- Fyren_ has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:51 -!- Zaba has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:53 -!- joosa has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:54 -!- ghallberg has quit [*.net *.split] 23:05:55 -!- krel has quit [*.net *.split] 23:08:51 -!- elliptic_ is now known as elliptic