00:08:02 -!- ldierk__ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:36:09 had an idea about traps, do I just drop it in the brainstorm wiki? 00:37:37 idea is to have a trap god (thinking Yendor god of rogues would be nice) 00:38:15 using the god you combine the trap creation and tactical usage ideas already in the brainstorm 00:38:41 anyway let me know if I should add to the brainstorm or just sod off 00:40:30 Can't use "Yendor" as Y is already taken. 00:40:37 Likewise it's from NetHack ;) 00:40:42 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 00:42:40 you're free to add anything you like to the wiki 00:44:38 people seem to like talking about god ideas and stuff on the tavern also 01:00:27 greatzebu: Thanks for the unique/ghost annotations, they're very useful! 01:00:28 Keskitalo: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 01:00:31 !messages 01:00:32 (1/1) dpeg said (1d 17h 44m 20s ago): Static Discharge idea implemetable'd as 4554. 01:00:47 !tell dpeg Ah, thanks! 01:00:47 Keskitalo: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 01:03:22 thought yendor was from rogue 01:03:30 named after his dog 01:03:47 hence why I thought god of rogues but if Y is taken so be it 01:04:40 keskitalo: thanks, glad you like them! they were jpeg's idea 01:06:18 ...and i just realized that doryen of libtcod fame is an anagram of yendor 01:07:05 greatzebu: Oh, and also thanks for Mac support! 01:07:06 yep definitely from rogue 01:07:26 if you throw out everything taken from rogue we dont have much :-p 01:07:32 my pleasure :-) 01:07:44 !tell dpeg I edited the lev/flight bits in the manual (wiki), to remove swift+fly combo mention, and add a bit about electrical melee attacks to the lev description. 01:07:44 Keskitalo: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 01:08:19 swift/flight doesnt give bonus anymore/ 01:08:20 ? 01:08:59 UbAh: "we don't have much" -- no, we just don't take characters and mythology from other series without careful consideration first. 01:09:21 Yendor is a very definite Rogue/Hackism, whatever branch. 01:09:26 Bit like how we don't take stuff from Tolkein. 01:09:31 Or Dungeons & Dragons. 01:09:56 ah ok, I figured this was a decendent of rogue I guess I have my history wrong 01:10:42 just a descendant in terms of format, i think 01:10:53 Er, no? 01:10:56 It's in the same genre. 01:11:07 anyway I was thinking of it more as a recognition of what has gone before not as a ripoff 01:11:12 but I was def thinking rogue 01:11:29 I'm not saying it's a rip-off, just that we prefer to create our own flavour rather than appropriate other. :) 01:11:38 (I am a hypocrite considering Mara, but.) 01:11:53 hehe no problem, but about the idea what do you think? 01:12:00 I'm not sure. 01:12:02 where is mara from? 01:12:09 also balrogs no? 01:12:09 "Lord of Light", by Roger Zelazny. 01:12:17 great book :-) 01:12:19 @??balrug 01:12:20 balrug (052) | Speed: 11 | HD: 14 | Health: 56-97 | AC/EV: 5/12 | Damage: 2504(fire:14-27) | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(168), 05hellfire, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 12cold, 08holy++ | XP: 2482 | Sp: b.fire (3d23), fireball (3d23), sticky flame range (3d6), smiting (7-17), teleport self. 01:12:32 from tolken and the end goal of Moria 01:12:34 UbAh: Correct, no more swift/flight bonus. 01:12:50 Yeah, Balrug is from Tolkein. 01:12:52 at the rate things change I will never learn this game 01:13:00 greatzebu: YEs, I know. Hence the character :) 01:13:27 i assumed crawl got the name straight from hindu mythology and not through zelazny 01:13:57 UbAh: Heh, yes! I last played in spring, it feels so different now starting with the skill learning changes.. 01:13:59 I think Balrug's a bit excusable by now - sure, it originated from Tolkien, but it's been used so many places that it's about as much Tolkien as "orc" is 01:14:14 though I felt balrog being here was more props to moria than tolkein 01:14:29 lost so many hours in jr high to moria 01:15:21 greatzebu: Actually, Mara is from Buddhist rather than Hindu, but no. He's very specifically modelled after Lord Mara in Lord of Light :) 01:15:36 cool, good to know :-) 01:15:38 Also, Linley originally took loads of stuff from D&D (and I guess balrugs from Tolkien directly?) but Stone Soup has been trying to remove some of that and come up with original stuff. And add lots of classical Greek references. :P 01:16:09 admittedly, I think it's kind of funny that ancient mythology is OK but modern mythology isn't 01:16:13 i will keep that in mind when trying to sneak gene wolfe references in 01:16:23 tried going back and seeing if I could win that one but I am spoiled by newer roguelikes so it was painful going to old UI and de-evolved one 01:17:32 ZorbaTHut: Modern mythology is usually copyrighted. ;) 01:17:49 due, alright, that's a fair point :) 01:18:00 if your looking for old mythos it seams you have left much of the native american (north and south) alone 01:18:16 UbAh: Plus Aboriginal and Inuit. 01:18:27 true if the layers come after you it wont be much left to change 01:18:46 Not to mention Egyptian and Polynesian. 01:18:50 much crosover with Inuit and pac natives 01:18:55 due, and slavic, and aztec and mayan 01:19:08 (Khufu and Menkaure are specifically historical rather than mythological, though.) 01:19:08 and probably dozens of others 01:19:09 there is probably some room for awesome blood-themed aztec stuff 01:19:17 add another hell or portal for xibalba 01:19:20 would be fun 01:19:47 Xibalba would be awesome, yes. 01:19:47 it'd be somewhat interesting to split Necromancy into Necromancy and Blood Magic 01:20:03 Necromancy focuses on things that are dead, Blood Magic focuses on things that are alive for now 01:20:14 would fit in the hells but maybe replace one if there are to many 01:20:19 sounds like work 01:21:14 place of fear, place of phantoms is what it means 01:21:15 kinda 01:21:29 I dunno how to balance this, but it'd be pretty sweet to make an Animate Skeleton equivalent that worked on living creatures. cast spell, their flesh blasts off their bones, now you have a small army 01:21:48 ZorbaTHut: You could call it "Corporal Mortification". 01:22:06 hehe made me think army of darkness when half his body is possesed and fighting himself 01:22:16 And I would totally support a spell like that :) 01:22:20 make monsters hit themselves x# of terns 01:22:22 turns 01:24:30 lair to aboriginal "dream time" to xibalba 01:24:40 you could also put some pretty fascinating buffs in there. a version of Berserk that does one point of damage to you every turn 01:25:17 all blood magic should by nature cause damage to you unless you have fresh blood handy 01:25:23 and a cleanup spell that gets rid of all blood on the dungeon floors and walls, and (turns it into MP/turns it into a blood elemental/turns it into HP/does something else) 01:25:28 ubah, definitely 01:25:32 it has a lot of natural flavor 01:25:54 thats the iron in it greatzedu 01:25:56 rich, bloody flavor 01:26:21 yes, very tasty 01:26:24 you could also have a moderately high-level Sacrifice spell, that paralyzes an enemy and all blood-magic-casting-cost damage is applied to them instead of you 01:26:32 and good for your imune system 01:26:34 sacrifice orc, nuke dragon 01:26:35 immune* 01:26:49 -!- st_ has quit [] 01:26:51 move enslave to blood 01:26:57 sac enslaved guy 01:27:01 for fun? 01:27:25 sub of blood naturally 01:28:01 the downside is that it risks moving a lot of interesting things out of necromancy 01:28:02 summon blood worms 01:29:00 not too many 01:29:05 necromancy does have tons of good stuff now, though 01:29:16 sub of blood, fulsome regen 01:30:00 those 3 and you could make a case for an agony/pain but I think it would deserve a new dam spell instead 01:30:07 I'd actually leave fulsome in necromancy, it works on corpses and never produces potions of blood 01:30:49 always pictured it being the blood your working with though 01:30:51 same with agony/pain - the flavor doesn't have anything to do with blood, it's just sharing in their pain 01:31:24 the flavor text says "essences", I'd call that possibly things that don't include blood. stomach acids, fangs, etc 01:31:25 yea and I think a new spell for damage would be better 01:31:52 borngjor's sort of strikes me as having "blood flavor" 01:31:52 ok so really then 2 01:32:11 regen and sublimation 01:32:15 greatzebu, i was thinking about that one. I think it's ambiguous right now. it certainly could be rethemed to fit blood, or it could stay in necro. 01:32:46 is blood a given topic for consideration already? 01:32:51 one danger with blood magic, from a strict game balance viewpoint, is that we're designing spells that are meant to be "like necro, but with an extra cost" 01:32:58 and that implies they need to be stronger 01:33:10 why like necro? 01:33:10 but then in cases where the cost is considered somewhat irrelevant, they're just strictly better 01:33:31 most blood magic is about control and curses 01:33:37 mmmm, that makes sense 01:33:47 but still, "with extra cost = better" could be an issue 01:34:00 extra cost lower level 01:34:04 less mp 01:34:14 yeah, that still makes it better 01:34:31 yes but not more powerful, which would be the harder one to balance 01:34:53 actually, how about the only trade off is: no hunger but takes blood 01:35:51 undead cant cast unless they have an outside sorce of blood (how hard to code this?) 01:36:43 and make the more powerful spells a % oh hp not a set amount 01:36:54 actually hp loss grows with spell power 01:37:08 that's an interesting idea. but then the hp loss drops to zero when your spellcasting goes up, which seems like it loses some flavor 01:37:37 no I mean spell power goes up HP loss goes up 01:37:50 using more blood to power the spell 01:38:28 you will feel like a chump casting away your hp later in the game when most spells are hungerless though. unless the spells are super great 01:38:43 so say you cast lvl 7 foo without a pot of blood you get smacked hard for using so much of your own blood 01:39:00 later-game I'd suggest having some source of blood storage, like potions of blood or sacrificing monsters 01:39:43 woudl giving a spell like the vamp ability take flavor from vamps? 01:40:04 actually vamps and blood magic would be interesting if you go with must have blood to cast 01:40:54 dunno I am going far afield in speculation and it requires some assumptions of earlier suggestions being in 01:41:31 yeah, I think this is the point where we'd have to sit down and implement it, and sadly I have no time to do so 01:41:40 nothing wrong with going far afield while brainstorming--it helps set the boundaries of the idea 01:42:42 probably the way to go to actually pursue the idea seriously would be to get more feedback and open a wiki page outlining it 01:42:59 well I dont "know the room" I mean I have popped in and brainstormed in the past but I still dont know what is crawl's personality so to speak 01:43:05 what fits and what doesnt 01:43:43 depends on who you ask, i expect :-) 01:44:20 hence my knowing the room or lack thereof 01:45:11 also I dont know how much challenge is acceptable as far as difficulty in coding 01:45:38 getting people to agree that something is a good idea is probably the more difficult part 01:45:44 at least in my very limited experience 01:46:09 coding challenges are surmountable 01:46:55 as an admin by trade and a horrid coder I always feel bad if I come up with something good but very difficult to code 01:47:00 yeah, plus it helps to code it yourself as a demo. going from "look at this version of DCSS, I think this should be in the game, here's my code" is a lot easier than "here's my idea, someone should code this" 01:47:12 even at work, and all the devels are my friends/drinking buddies there 01:47:45 I lack the ability to do more than simple admin code 01:50:32 -!- greatzebu has quit [Quit: greatzebu] 01:51:50 -!- Fail_Bot has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:56:14 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:57:09 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:17:08 -!- due has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:17:36 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:23:00 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:25:35 -!- due has joined ##crawl-dev 02:58:59 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:04:44 -!- valrus_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:04:55 -!- UbAh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:32:24 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 03:40:44 03zaba * r48be191bfb2e 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/layout.des: Prevent doors on layout_roguey from being made secret. 04:39:18 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 04:46:21 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 05:00:04 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-755-g48be191 05:06:32 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:19:02 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 05:30:49 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 05:45:49 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 05:55:03 -!- ainsophy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:55:18 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:55:46 -!- ainsophy_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:56:40 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 05:57:45 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:58:39 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 06:17:44 -!- ldierk__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:19:18 -!- ainsophy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:19:30 -!- Sequell has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:20:17 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 06:22:20 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:41:09 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 06:54:51 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 07:02:12 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 07:04:20 -!- pako_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:15:05 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:30:24 -!- ainsophy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:37:22 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 07:37:28 hi 07:37:28 galehar: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 07:37:33 !messages 07:37:33 (1/2) kilobyte said (1d 15h 15m 21s ago): what do you think the inferface for partial skills should be? Micromanaging skills is quite tedious, and without that you lose N-1 skills where N is the number of ones you have turned on... 07:37:54 !messages 07:37:54 (1/1) dpeg said (16h 53m 31s ago): Possibly interesting abyss feedback by st on the wiki. 07:39:37 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 07:41:11 kilobyte: the interface should just hide progress %, but the partial level should have an effect 07:52:48 03galehar * r01f8f4d3cd89 10/crawl-ref/source/tilereg-dgn.cc: Fix incorrect reach range checking when clicking on a monster. 08:05:30 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 08:12:04 -!- syllogism- has joined ##crawl-dev 08:13:33 -!- syllogism has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:23:00 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:26:57 !tell Napkin sehr schön :) bitte aktualisier tornado mal bei gelegenheit, ich habe #4442 und co behoben 08:26:58 edlothiol: OK, I'll let Napkin know. 08:27:37 -!- edlothiol has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:32:23 Felid transmuters can't use mouse/tiles to wield arrows (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4563) by Mental Mouse 08:34:19 03galehar * r3692f0cc45db 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: No staircase mimics in tomb (#4558). 08:36:37 galehar: thanks for fixing reaching clicks, it was a particularly idiotic mistake 08:38:12 for partial skills, I meant the programmer's interface, not user's 08:39:11 I'm thinking of a nuclear solution: changing everything at once, with a grep fest; I just wonder what interface would you provide 08:39:35 would for example returning skill*100 be ok with you? 08:39:43 I explained it in https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:skills:fuzzing 08:47:25 the basic idea is you.skill takes 2 parameters: scale and boost. 08:47:44 scale default to 1 and boost to true, so existing calls still work 08:48:04 giving scale 100 will return 378 for a L3 skill at 78% progress 08:48:21 you want to code it? 08:51:21 have to go 08:51:38 I'll be happy to delegate, so go ahead if you want to code it 08:51:41 'later 08:58:45 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 08:59:55 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:01:29 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 09:03:30 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:01:31 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:01:57 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:02:19 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:05:59 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 10:30:30 I've been trying out recite on profane servitors and been getting results that might be weird, but I've never used recite before so I'd like to consult an expert. 10:55:20 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:59:44 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:00:07 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 11:00:14 afternoon 11:00:30 bmh! back from mountaineering? 11:00:42 Wensely: got altitude sickness and came back early 11:00:50 I had a hellish 36 hour trip home from Kathmandu 11:01:02 ah :( 11:02:00 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:02:26 so it goes. Qatar Airways stuck me in Washington DC for 6 hours which was sort of painful. A friend of mine decided to 'borrow' my laptop when I got sick and my girlfriend has my other computer, so no coding for a while 11:03:01 I think that galehar has been working on the abyss in your absence 11:03:10 last I heard he wanted to make morphing even faster 11:04:24 lovely 11:04:41 the last changes of his that I saw were from a while ago and were pretty spectacular even then 11:05:44 I thought it was a bit different: make the z-axis movement happen every turn, and make the speed of z-axis movement over time variable, starting slower than currently, but generally gradually getting faster as more time is spent in the abyss 11:06:03 (galehar's plan, but I guess galehar would be best to explain it) 11:08:14 we could also add rotations :-D 11:08:34 (I don't think they'd be visually interesting) 11:09:15 after a while you could make the abyss transition from perlin noise to brownian motion 11:09:26 but I have no idea what that actually means! 11:09:29 it isn't perlin, it's worley :) 11:09:59 bah! it's all noise :P 11:10:41 I still want to make Slime morphy 11:10:42 bmh: make lugonites able to invoke lugonu to change the noise generation algorithm 11:11:15 would be nasty with the slime walls 11:11:26 Wensley: there's reduced maprot for Lugos 11:11:57 oh that's cool I guess, sort of. still not very useful if the abyss is morphing and the map isn't :P 11:13:10 it uses a common codebase with Labyrinth maprot 11:13:24 bmh: you could make it so that once you get the slimy rune it re-generates slime:1-5 11:13:41 since people just dive slime anyway 11:14:14 Wensley: I want to add slime creatures that ooze out of the walls and ooze back into other walls to reshape the dungeon 11:16:32 -!- Fail_Bot has joined ##crawl-dev 11:20:53 -!- Zaba_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:21:13 -!- Zaba has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:21:17 -!- Zaba_ is now known as Zaba 11:26:08 -!- pako_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:31:48 hmm ... zot defence crash-saves don't seem to work right ... 11:33:28 ZD has never seemed to work right 11:33:28 -!- stabwound has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:34:54 I loaded one just now and ended up on a fresh map, with previous stuff and stats 11:35:48 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:35:59 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 11:36:04 haha 11:37:11 you know, there really ought to be a shorthand for -extra-opt-last restart_after_game=true 11:37:11 ... 11:37:45 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:42:20 heh 11:42:45 I got on the ZD trunk high score list on one of my bad runs 11:50:12 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 12:14:05 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 12:14:22 !seen Wensley 12:14:22 dpeg: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 12:14:22 I last saw Wensley at Sun Sep 18 16:53:33 2011 UTC (20m 49s ago) saying was it a triple sword back then? on ##crawl. 12:14:28 !messages 12:14:28 (1/3) galehar said (2d 1h 36m 53s ago): krakens are huge and tentacled monstrosity are giant 12:14:32 !messages 12:14:33 (1/2) Keskitalo said (11h 13m 45s ago): Ah, thanks! 12:14:36 !messages 12:14:37 (1/1) Keskitalo said (11h 6m 53s ago): I edited the lev/flight bits in the manual (wiki), to remove swift+fly combo mention, and add a bit about electrical melee attacks to the lev description. 12:14:48 Yes, that was good. 12:15:08 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:15:56 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 12:47:26 -!- jle__ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:03:49 Scrolls of identify offer some fully-id'ed branded ammunition as a valid target (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4564) by Tonfa 13:16:01 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 13:18:54 Quaterstaff of Chaos causes crash (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4565) by Limbas 13:20:24 are enemy monsters *supposed* to use throwing nets on the player's plants? 13:21:30 SamB: sounds like a mis-feature (them ensnaring your ordinary allies is good, on plants it is not) 13:21:50 does it actually accomplish anything? should it? 13:21:58 no to both 13:22:10 okay, so just an AI bug then? 13:22:18 yes, I'd say so 13:22:25 and maybe UI 13:22:26 SamB: can fix or file? 13:22:32 *you 13:22:40 I'll file 13:22:58 I don't suppose the save it just happened in would help? 13:23:42 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 13:23:58 SamB: I won't think so, this should be reproducible in wizmode. 13:24:39 and presumably the save from the round before would be much more usefull in any case... 13:24:45 yes 13:29:16 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:30:32 ammo acquirement should give like 200 nicely enchanted ammo if it's going to be an actual choice 13:30:52 st_: don't think so 13:30:53 I just got 14 +3 arrows of flame 13:31:06 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:31:39 okay, that is not enough 13:32:14 st_: but acquirement has pretty high variance, would need a wizmode test run to see how bad it really is 13:33:00 dpeg: oh, I suppose I shouldn't have said "plant" 13:33:05 it's actually a burning bush 13:33:15 is that still a bug? 13:33:17 SamB: but should a net help against that? 13:33:29 *I* don't think so 13:33:33 SamB: seems like a design decision. I'd say no, because I wouldn't expect a net to help there. 13:33:38 okay, cool 13:33:42 SamB: were you behind the bush? Maybe it was aiming at you. 13:33:55 I don't *think* so 13:33:55 at the moment it does double what god ammo acquirement gives 13:34:03 but i'd agree that's definitely not enough 13:34:26 either way, if it doesn't harm my bush anyway, the bush shouldn't be "caught" 13:34:28 god ammo acquirement was pretty lousy in my last game 13:34:44 90% flame/frost bolts 13:34:53 5% sling bullets (with 1 skill) 13:35:02 5% penetration 13:35:04 something like that 13:35:19 elliptic: There's an Orc vs Lair forum thread which seems a bit pointless to me. However, you were cited. Do you think something should change? 13:35:26 what is the thread? 13:35:42 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2612 13:35:45 Orcish Mines and Hopping 13:36:48 well, making the entrance to orc a bit deeper (say, same level range as lair) sounds reasonable enough to me 13:36:51 the OP says that Orc entrance should be deeper since most of the time you enter it after Lair (and cite a strategy guide written by you with the standard branch order) 13:37:12 it is certainly true that entering orc before lair is usually a very bad idea 13:37:32 galehar well, someone who knew how could look at the ttyrec and check ;-) 13:37:32 I believe that early Lair become harder with the branch cut. Is this true? 13:37:44 If Orc:1 becomes a bit easier, it'd solve the isuse in another way. 13:37:45 I'm not sure this really has anything to do with "branch hopping" (a term I had never heard before, incidentally) 13:37:49 I'm playing on CAO 13:38:04 dpeg: the problem isn't orc:1 generally 13:38:20 elliptic: yes, so what's the problem with having an early source of gold? 13:38:37 elliptic: is it, now? 13:38:40 its pretty rare to need that much gold that early in the game... 13:38:41 moving the branch deeper will also make it harder, since branch depth is added to entrance depth for monster generation p 13:38:46 considering you won't find shops in lair 13:38:46 well, you almost never have any reason to need gold at d:6 13:38:46 *purpose 13:38:47 i don't think there's a problem really. but lair has lots of xp and orc has lots of gold, and very early on you probably want xp rather than gold 13:38:57 galehar: not for non-uniques in orc, I think? 13:39:00 Not sure who coined "hopping", perhaps Erik. It is the strategy of the branch pendulum, always swinging between branches and dungeon. It is what lead to the idea of the rune lock. 13:39:22 orc is not necessarily a bad idea for Hill Orc Priests to do first... 13:39:58 Orc is also a source of items (armour, weapons, robes). 13:40:00 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 13:40:14 and orcs 13:40:19 many many orcs 13:40:26 dpeg: basically orc:1-2-3 *usually* aren't that hard, but they also don't give much reward (almost zero xp, usually no items you want unless you get lucky with shops, etc) and they are occasionally really deadly 13:40:54 elliptic: We increased the chance for Orc shops. I think it is noticeable, but I might be biased. 13:41:14 ooh, orc shops 13:41:20 yay, now I can buy me some orcs 13:41:32 orc sorcerers/high priests/warlords, stone giants, various nasty uniques, and shafts... all can make any level of orc quite dangerous 13:41:44 dpeg: I haven't found it noticeable 13:41:47 for what it's worth, I think current orc is pretty fun :P not sure anywhere else completely lacks choke points, aside from vestibule 13:41:51 SamB: "I'll take twenty plain orcs and two sorcerers, please. Could you put them in bags for me?" 13:42:07 I wants them on the ground, fighting 13:42:16 is it possible to come up with some sequell query that shows whether people enter orc first, vs enter lair first? maybe that's a bit too vague 13:42:31 i have a hunch that almost all good players enter orc after lair though 13:42:40 maybe you could infer that from the mean level of death in each branch 13:43:06 !lm * t won br.enter=lair x=avg(turn) 13:43:10 !lm * t won br.enter=orc x=avg(turn) 13:43:12 i dont think this matters much, anyway. orc being earlier makes the early dungeon more interesting, with entry vaults 13:43:19 257 milestones for * (t won br.enter=lair): avg(turn)=14625.16 13:43:19 256 milestones for * (t won br.enter=orc): avg(turn)=28236.24 13:43:24 From the point of view of global balance, Lair is much more valuable, because of the many subbranches. So it should come later. 13:43:25 that's average entries in winning games 13:43:51 dpeg: changing balance to make orc:4 come before lair isn't plausible 13:44:05 elliptic: I didn't say or mean that. 13:45:05 Orc enables access to 4+5 levels; Lair enables access to many more levels. So the latter is a lot more valuable. If the initial branches are roughly comparable (I think they are), the smaller one should come before the bigger one. 13:45:30 I'm not sure I follow the logic here 13:45:46 In other words: You should have to fight harder to enable the strategic options. 13:46:25 well, the only thing wrong with the status quo is that new players expect that they should do orc first and die there a ton 13:46:47 But new players die to spiny frogs a ton, too. 13:46:52 They have to die somewhere! 13:47:24 where's the ttyrec of the ZD game I'm playing right now? I want to reference it in this bug report, in case someone who knows how to dig through those wants to try... 13:47:43 SamB: sorry, don't know. Perhaps ping or !tell Napkin? 13:47:45 if you didn't turn hints mode off at level 7, it wouldn't be an issue, you could just make it say "you probably need to gather more experience before entering Orc" or whatever 13:48:30 or would it be easier to find after I finish? 13:48:32 crawl is also a pretty non linear game, so having orc early might be a way for teaching players that you dont always want to enter a branch as soon as you find it 13:48:37 ais523: You can enter Orc just fine, you shouldn't expect to finish it in one go, that's the point as far as I understand. Of course, nobody assumes that you can finish Lair in one go either, so I am not sure there is a problem. 13:48:59 ais523: there are plans to extend hints mode, btw. 13:49:07 in nearly every game I finish Lair in one go 13:49:09 I think it would be more instructive if ^o showed the possible locations of branches not yet found, rather than hiding that information, in order to better educate players on dungeon topology. is there any reason this info is hidden in the first place? 13:49:12 doing all the branches in the order you find them (i.e. elfrobin style) is actually a pretty difficult conduct too 13:49:14 dpeg: as a new player, I know I liked to do branches in one go 13:49:15 I dont think it's ever been won 13:49:23 evilmike: I did once actually :) 13:49:32 oh, ok 13:49:32 elliptic: This shows your class and/or my inability and/or that Lair is too easy. 13:49:38 I know elfrobin died on zot 5 once 13:49:48 evilmike: this was on one of my accounts 13:49:58 I've entered snake:$ without backtracking before except to stairdance (it was my best game, I died on snake:4 stairdancing onto snake:$) 13:50:14 and I'm not an elliptic-level sort of player 13:50:26 Wensley: yes. I believe in the current way it is much more natural for most players. Who cares about Vaults when you're struggling around Lair depth? 13:51:01 Yeah, usually I run straight through Lair the moment I reach it. Sometimes (weak char/tough lair 8, jelly room) I need to leave some for later. 13:51:47 Lair being too easy is one of the components of "boring midgame", in my opinion. I'd have hoped that the cut and the new monsters help with that :| 13:51:52 dpeg: seems spoilery, is all. do you really think that such information would confuse anyone? 13:52:01 Wensley: yes, absolutely. 13:52:18 dpeg: lair is harder than it used to be certainly... but everywhere else in early midgame is harder too 13:52:31 Lair to anywhere else is usually a big jump in difficulty, yes 13:52:50 Lair being basically all meleedudes 13:53:01 And it is not spoilery, in my opinion. We're giving the information when you need them. (And, a few months ago, there was nothing like this in Ctrl-O at all.) 13:53:51 I think lair is pretty good for the most part, aside from how everything flees at low hp 13:54:05 imo the #1 factor in midgame boredom is that Vaults is just the Dungeon with all box levels 13:54:15 Porcupines are completely worthless 13:54:30 A DE without weapon skill can melee them 13:54:36 evilmike: catlobes don't flee :P 13:54:53 We can remove them. But there's also no spine effect for monsters yet. 13:55:21 Or perhaps degrade porcupine to early D monsters. 13:55:27 Teaching spiny. 13:55:42 #1 factor in midgame boredom for me is the game being so damn long, actually 13:55:49 At some point concentration fades 13:55:55 porcupines are an incomplete monster, no point worrying about their power level until spines are coded 13:56:44 yes 13:57:18 Wensley: players who are interested in these numbers can always use ?/B, there is no reason to clutter Ctrl-O with (currently) irrelevant information. 13:57:42 Adjustable autopickup in game will help so I don't have to fiddle with my inventory every minute. 13:58:08 This is true but has nothing to do with the concepts discussed at the moment?! 13:58:20 ah, your concentration :) 13:58:25 dpeg: Ah, sorry. Was just pondering out loud about midgame. 13:59:11 Wensley: not-yet-found branches are listed sometimes... 13:59:20 dpeg: my best suggestion about lair/orc if you don't want to move orc a little deeper (8-13 instead of 6-11) is to give orc:1-2 a huge nerf... no orcs other than priest/wizard/warrior, no shafts to orc:4, no stone giants, a limited selection of uniques, etc 13:59:33 elliptic: for some reason (the one you wouldn't follow) I'd like to keep Orc quite early. So you think that increasing Lair difficulty slowly would suffice in the long run? 13:59:39 no 13:59:45 orc is really really really deadly 14:00:07 I think there's even an entry vault with an orc sorcerer 14:00:10 yes 14:00:12 OUTSIDE the branch 14:00:29 could be a depth dependent branch entry, no time to look it up 14:01:43 the orc sorcerer can appear on d:6, iirc 14:02:13 elliptic: I don't like the proposals to drastically reduce variance, to be honest. Much rather, I'd increase Lair difficulty possibilities a lot. 14:02:44 * dpeg enjoyed 4.1, though. This might clash with what a modern playership demands. 14:03:19 dpeg: the issue is that dungeon structure means that getting in trouble in orc means you are likely dead, whereas in lair you can avoid things 14:03:57 As pointed out upthread, Orc has the interesting structure. So I believe it is Lair who should change, not Orc. 14:04:00 not objecting to making lair more difficult, but I don't think it will make me want to do more orc... I'd rather do D 14:04:13 elliptic: but rune lock! 14:04:25 what is rune lock 14:04:28 I'd clear D up to 12 (13 tends to be too dangerous) before entering lair 14:04:48 valrus_: something on D:14 which you can only pass (i.e. go deeper) if you present a rune. 14:05:02 egad 14:05:10 What does that mean? 14:06:40 dpeg: making lair more deadly and making early levels of orc more rewarding could work... but I do think orc needs either more rewards or less danger regardless 14:06:51 egad = archaic exclamation 14:06:53 doesn't lair always spawn monsters as if it were generated on d:8? 14:07:02 if you wanted to make lair harder you coul djust make it scale with depth 14:07:09 lair entry depth currently doesn't matter for lair contents, yeah 14:07:14 * SamB thought it was egads 14:07:27 elliptic: I'd be happy to have a higher chance for Orc shops. When I came up with the modified numbers, it was a timid step. 14:07:49 dpeg: what I'd like is more xp 14:08:11 @??stone giant 14:08:16 stone giant (15C) | Speed: 10 | HD: 16 | Health: 65-107 | AC/EV: 12/2 | Damage: 45 | Res: 06magic(85), 12drown | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2025. 14:08:44 most of orc is worth a pitifully low amount of xp currently 14:08:47 @??orc 14:08:47 orc (04o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 4-10 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 5 | Res: 06magic(4) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 3. 14:08:50 @??orc wizard 14:08:51 orc wizard (06o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-21 | AC/EV: 1/12 | Damage: 5 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 35 | Sp: magic dart (3d4), slow, haste, blink / throw flame (3d5), confuse, invisibility, magic dart (3d4) / throw frost (3d5), cantrip, haste, throw flame (3d5), magic dart (3d4), invisibility. 14:08:51 elliptic: I see, but isn't it interesting if the branches provide different types of loot? Do you see a good way to increase Orc xp without making it a lot harder? 14:09:23 dpeg: well, they aren't providing different types of loot unless you remove items from lair 14:10:01 branches could have different categories of loot. no food in lair, for example 14:10:02 removing (most) items from lair and increasing shop generation in orc could be interesting if you want to go that way 14:10:07 Which I did contemplate, to be honest. I just feared the storm of rage. 14:10:36 tweaking item generation probably won't cause too much anger 14:10:45 the d:14 rune lock idea is worth being scared about though :P 14:11:10 evilmike: the motivation is to make player show a little commitment :) 14:11:57 @??orc hd:5 14:11:58 orc (04o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 20-48 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 5 | Res: 06magic(4) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 210. 14:12:39 dpeg: could increase HD of the lesser orcs in Orc, maybe 14:12:56 comedy option: add lava orc enemies 14:12:57 orc (wizard/priest/warrior) 14:12:59 elliptic: perhaps depending on depth? Although that'd be novel. 14:13:11 yeah 14:37:53 i think people would like it if items drops were more diverse 14:38:16 one i've been pushing for a while: halve or even eliminate items on snake 1-4; all loot in a massive guardian naga vault on snake 5 14:38:24 no floor food in crypt/tomb would be another good one 14:39:56 necromancer house filled with delicious crypt jerky 14:42:48 I have to say I prefer ideas like that for snake to the rune lock idea 14:44:04 but the lock is much easier to set up and test 14:44:50 I'm not against testing the rune lock a bit, but it will make me sad that stuff like diving to d:27 will no longer be possible 14:44:51 also the soft solution would still miss to force players into some commitment 14:45:25 elliptic: hehe. But that's shedding a tear for conduct/challenge play. 14:45:45 which is an important part of the game 14:46:50 speaking of moving loot to branch ends, i think it would be a good idea for swamp as well 14:47:10 no, the ways how players bind their hands behind their back should never impact our decisions 14:47:11 or for shoals... could have more loot in each hut 14:47:17 clearing swamp 1-4 really isn't fun, but the presence of loot encourages you to do that. the branch is much more bearable if you just dive it 14:47:43 evilmike: Swamp isn't bad anymore after layout changes 14:47:43 If we change the rules, there will be new exciting ways to bind your hands. This is not Nethack where conducts are crucial to get an interesting game. 14:47:55 kilobyte: it's certainly much better than it used to be 14:47:58 it's better, but still not that fun 14:47:59 evilmike: swamp worms are the main annoyance left 14:48:05 also wisps 14:48:06 New conduct: Open the lock with Slimy Rune. 14:48:08 i dont mind swamp worms 14:48:09 and alligators running away 14:48:12 evilmike: yes, I proposed that specifically for Swamp too. But somehow people didn't like it, iirc. 14:48:29 my problem is that (a) almost everything flees and is faster than you; and (b) insubstantial wisps are dumb 14:48:46 dpeg: sure, just shedding a tear... there are non-conduct reasons why I don't think rune lock is a great idea 14:48:47 ghallberg: oh yeah, Slime really shouldn't be a Lair branch, it kills unspoiled players dead 14:48:57 I like the suggestion (borsuk, I think) that we should seriously rethink fleeing. And only keep it for monsters where it has tactical meaning. All others don't flee, flavour or not. 14:49:14 ghallberg: exactly! 14:49:19 -!- valrus__ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:49:30 Rethinking fleeing is a good idea. There's a place for it, but the way it works now is a nuisance usually 14:49:32 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:49:32 There were also elaborate ideas to bypass the lock (ask eino about it). 14:49:32 mainly because one thing I like about crawl is that it doesn't stop you from going places 14:49:47 aside from zot, which is just a tiny part of the game 14:50:15 if we move loot to branch end vault, we should do it for all lair branches, not just 1 or 2 14:50:44 @??insubstantial wisp 14:50:44 insubstantial wisp (15v) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 6-18 | AC/EV: 20/20 | Damage: 1206(blink) | Flags: 11non-living, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 137 | Sp: blink. 14:50:58 galehar: yes 14:51:04 elliptic: There are two competing positions (assuming we agree that postponing branch ends until they're really easy is not what we want): (a) encourage players to go there, e.g. because the loot is there; (b) force players to do at least one branch end. (The two don't even clash, btw.) I like (b) better, but then again, I've been raised in a Communist country. 14:51:04 the 20/20 defenses are what make those things so annoying 14:51:09 how about reducing wisp AC? a lot. 14:51:10 there could be guaranteed shafts on d:13 that will dump you on d:15, but since the rune lock is still there you aren't getting back up to the early dungeon without a rune 14:51:26 galehar: sounds good to me... also remove them from generation in late D 14:51:33 since they don't do anything there 14:51:35 Wensley: this was one of the less elaborate ideas :) 14:52:02 Wensley: would need shaft vaults, of course (no random shafting beyond D:14). 14:52:04 what about making the rune worth something? 14:52:19 like, give the player xp for finding a rune 14:52:23 runes are worth score :P 14:52:28 not if you don't win 14:52:30 evilmike: comes up from time to time, nothing ever emerging 14:52:31 but score doesn't help you win 14:52:39 score helps you win the metagame 14:52:45 they should really be worth score even if you don't win, hm 14:52:46 ??score 14:52:47 score[1/3]: [your gold + modified xp + 1000*(different runes + 2)^2 (winners only) + 6,250,000,000*(different runes^2)/turns (winners only)] 14:52:56 Wensley: well, there's no reason to get score earlier in a game rather than later 14:53:03 hmm, perhaps /that's/ the only fix needed 14:53:08 no 14:53:11 instead of giving score based on number of total turns 14:53:11 the branch end vault are already worth a lot of XP. Doesn't make players go there early 14:53:17 elliptic: +1000 14:53:18 give more score for getting a rune early than getting it later 14:53:21 that third term in the score formula is pretty silly 14:53:32 how about making it larger and not just for winners 14:53:55 elliptic: the new formula is _much_ better than the old one, and we won't change it for a semismall modification. 14:54:11 dpeg: hm? this isn't going to affect winner scores much at all 14:54:14 the new formula still serves to measure a new player's progress, and it serves to sort out really good players 14:54:22 I guess the reason for it being winner-only was to not reward lugging runes with you all the time 14:54:24 elliptic: rax hated the scoring change, for example 14:54:34 the idea is to make it better at measuring a new player's progress 14:54:36 haven't runes been goldified? 14:54:41 by rewarding them for getting a rune 14:54:42 ais523: exactly 14:54:49 I don't see how this is controversial, sorry 14:54:58 If it is painless, I have no objections. But if it's not, I'd say it is not worth the trouble. 14:55:35 I think the issue was that scores are not comparable anymore, so you have to set up different pages for different scoring versions. 14:55:56 But I think the much more important point is (a) vs (b) from ^ :) 14:56:06 it doesn't matter if you make more points available, just if you make fewer available 14:56:33 dpeg: we aren't talking about the sort of huge scoring change that happened in 0.4 or 0.5 or whenever that was... just the sort of tweak that happened in 0.9 14:56:59 elliptic: if it is painless... etc. But scoring is mostly irrelevant. How to get players into those branch ends is not. 14:57:09 sure, scoring isn't that important 14:58:56 the issue with branch ends, basically, is that runes just don't help the player at all 14:59:10 it's not like ascension kit items in NetHack 14:59:30 and the Bell, at least, comes with a really powerful item, giving people an incentive to get it early 14:59:42 (whereas the Book's meant to be left until last, and the Candelabrum is a joke) 14:59:45 that is why players postpone them as long as possible, yes -- there is a lot of xp to be gained, but as long as the player can gain xp (even if less) in an easier manner, they're well advised to do so 14:59:59 We could say the status quo is okay, but I think it leads to more streamlined and boring games. 15:01:39 Is stuf ssuposed to be able to end up underneath secret doors? 15:02:18 there's no flavour issue with it, it'd just mean "just inside the door" 15:02:52 and I can't think of an obvious gameplay issue either, given that behind the door would have the same gameplay effect 15:03:13 ais523: Undiscovered dorrs... 15:03:17 doors* 15:03:21 ghallberg: well, right 15:03:34 but whether the door's been discovered or not has nothing to do with whether you can have an item just inside it 15:03:34 It's a rock wall with a needle underneath... 15:03:46 now, if the item is visible to the player, that would be an issue 15:04:03 I shot a needle and it ended up "inside the wall" 15:05:01 do the first level of any branch really need 3 upstairs? How about we make it one, to match the downstairs? 15:05:09 galehar: +1 15:05:41 Seems it is impossible to discuss (a) vs (b). Oh well, I'll support the rune lock, this will at least get players moving. Back later. 15:06:03 dpeg: before you go, what's your email address? 15:06:15 it appears that I've lost it :P 15:09:25 ?@Grinder 15:09:29 AI shouldn't target plant-based monsters with throwing nets; UI shouldn't refer to same as caught (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4566) by SamB 15:09:38 sry 15:10:43 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:11:34 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 15:20:18 -!- valrus__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:20:24 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 15:21:13 -!- cbus has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:28:01 back 15:28:15 Wensley: still around? 15:28:21 dpeg: yep! 15:29:35 Monsters with see invis are unaffected by the "blind" status effect (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4567) by Wensleydale 15:44:33 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:47:33 Random poll: What would you think if character post mortem dumps would have a short section like the following? 15:47:36 [name] started as [background] and [escaped with the Orb!|died at [place]]. The [species] followed [god|no god] and collected [foo] runes. The [title] killed [bar] uniques, among them [three most dangerous ones]. 15:52:13 where are the foo runes??? 15:52:24 hmm, where's the difference to what there is now already? 15:52:31 It is prose. 15:52:35 no seriously. What's the point? Just something thematic? 15:52:42 galehar: you mean that the paragraph should list the runes? 15:52:49 no, I was just joking 15:53:02 instead of the more list like paragraph? 15:53:27 galehar: yes, games like DoomRL have a much better readable post mortem. I like that but I won't fight for anything. (And I assume inertia is big, as ever :) 15:53:31 -!- syllogism- has quit [] 15:53:45 i think a little prose prologue is a nice idea 15:54:06 dpeg: do you have a handy link to a doomrl morgue? 15:54:07 currently the morgues are very schematic/mechanical 15:54:23 galehar: sorry, no. Read some over the years on r.g.r.m. 15:54:55 dpeg: I doubt anyone would oppose that. You can make an implementable if you want. 15:55:13 greatzebu: the dump is good in game, e.g. with the % screen. But it is not perfect as a dump log. But that is even less important than scoring. I just wanted to see what people think of a prosaic introduction. 15:55:39 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55:57 I like it 15:56:18 dpeg: agreed, during the game you just want the relevant stats. after the game is over you are reminiscing or sharing the results with others and it's nice to have a little prose summary 15:56:31 There are some cases to be done, e.g. for demigods. Could also list special places (portal vaults). Best left to coder, I believe. 15:56:42 galehar: http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,4611.0.html 15:57:01 thanks 15:57:06 greatzebu: yes, that is the point. Actually, listing the branches _is_ good (but not in the prologue), since that is one of the standard questions asked of players. 16:00:45 03galehar * r1f2ae8040b2a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (skill_menu.cc skill_menu.h skills.cc): Fix some issues with mastered skills and potions of experience. 16:00:56 03galehar * r32050c121e89 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-data.h mon-pick.cc): Reduce insubstantial wips AC and don't generate them in late D. 16:00:57 For better recalling the game I came up with the three top uniques, but runes list help as well, as would "best randart" or list of portal vaults visited. 16:03:58 it's not obvious how to choose which randart is best. i guess longest equipped is one metric 16:04:17 go by price? 16:06:11 with the new prices, gold might actually work; these are just meant as mnemonic aids 16:27:41 kilobyte: what about making the slime entrance have slimy walls you have to go past to go in? so it's blindingly obvious you will take a lot of damage if you try 16:29:49 Damage on Slime:1 is not so bad, iirc. But just a little wall damage in the entry vault would convey the message. 16:31:40 kilobyte: is it possible already to turn walls into Slime walls in vaults? 16:31:47 !seen kilobyte 16:31:47 I last saw kilobyte at Sun Sep 18 19:54:42 2011 UTC (1h 37m 5s ago) saying ais523: exactly on ##crawl-dev. 16:35:59 if there's a way of doing it, there are no vaults that actually use that 16:36:24 evilmike: I know. My question is if I can make a sample vault and ask for more on the forum, or if it needs a code change. 16:40:21 i think you can do it with KFEAT 16:40:50 i'm not sure what the name of the feature is exactly though, possibly slime_covered_wall 16:40:58 i just looked, it's slimy_wall 16:41:01 aha 16:41:35 KFEAT: x = slimy_wall should do the trick 16:41:48 dpeg: KFEAT, like guys said 16:42:15 do you want something automated for a large number of vaults instead? 16:43:44 kilobyte: no, doing it for each vault is good enough 16:44:04 Thanks, will commit a few later. You can, too :) 16:44:56 will lair monsters be smart enough not to burn themselves? 16:45:13 probably not, have to protect them (outer layer) 16:45:53 anyone looked at https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4560 yet? 16:46:02 SamB: luadoc? 16:46:09 yeah 16:46:17 evilmike: you know, if someone codes better AI for slimy walls, that would sure be great for getting an alchemist spell that makes them working... :) 16:46:19 Probably only due can say something :| 16:46:44 Eronarn: heh... I hope it works with Imprison 16:47:15 can someone assign it to due, then? 16:47:18 i think this spell, and LRD, should both be changed to only hit on one side of a wall - being able to hit through walls (i.e., out of LOS) is pretty scummy 16:47:24 SamB: I will in a few days, yes. 16:47:48 galehar: what do you think about having the scale argument to you.skill() mandatory? That would force people to think... 16:48:28 Eronarn: yes 16:48:31 on the other hand, the default simplifies checking if you have the skill at all -- but that might be done some other way 16:50:10 my idea was to do something where you calculate what the intended 'surface' of a wall is but i haven't done out the math to see if this is plausible 16:50:12 uh oh, Shatter works through walls 16:51:00 Eronarn: only affect floor in LOS? 16:51:01 possible use in Tomb is left as an exercise to the reader 16:51:05 (for LRD) 16:51:21 yeah people like to shatter tomb 16:51:34 There's Elf abuse, too. 16:51:49 dpeg: yeah, especially if you make the LOS check after possibly removing the wall 16:51:57 there are also more exotic tactics like digging around the zot:5 vault and shattering the insides of it 16:52:06 I think I saw MarvinPA do something like that 16:52:14 MarvinPA is good! :) 16:52:29 and he didn't fix the bug? Naughty! :p 16:52:33 true! 16:52:43 he might not have been using shatter 16:52:54 still, is shatter going through walls really a bug? it's been that way for quite a while 16:52:54 !seen MarvinPA 16:52:54 I last saw MarvinPA at Sun Sep 18 21:41:01 2011 UTC (11m 53s ago) saying aha on ##crawl-dev. 16:53:22 evilmike: there's nothing monsters can do 16:53:33 well its definitely problematic 16:53:34 evilmike: especially if it's permarock like in Zot 16:53:51 It should really only affect the visible side, that is a good idea. 16:54:43 and when both sides are visible, only the ones that would be visible were the wall not transparent? 16:55:02 dpeg: only floor in LOS would have the problem of casting it on a wall composing a corner you can't see around 16:55:07 "visible as if all walls where intransparent" 16:55:14 galehar: I have a massive commit that makes partial skills work; to have a chance at catching all (or most...) uses I temporarily made the extra argument mandatory 16:55:22 that would make casting it on one wall hit 3 squares, and on a wall with an identical number of neighbors, 2 squares 16:55:26 galehar: should I undo that before pushing? 16:56:01 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:56:03 it should only affect the visible 'face' of the wall, but that face can touch non-visible things 16:56:20 one of the things about shatter is that it, well, shatters large walls 16:56:29 you cast it next to one and it puts a ton of holes in it, even fairly deep 16:56:43 We can nerf LRD first and see how that works out. 16:57:41 evilmike: yeah, it's about theme vs deficiencies of monster AI 16:58:07 does that monsters-fleeing-if-they-can't-retaliate thing work? would that apply here? 16:58:20 at least I remember hearing of some such change 16:58:57 evilmike: you could do some recursive kind of thing where the shockwave tries to break a wall, and if it succeeds, try the next. rather than right now where it's just a per wall chance 16:59:57 that would be nice 17:01:31 one possible proposal for LRD would be: it hits tiles that aren't LOS-blocked from your position by the wall you cast it on 17:01:57 so it would hit things that are LOS blocked by *other* stuff 17:02:26 Eronarn: not good enough. You could still hit monsters just on the other side of a one-width wall (iiuc). 17:03:39 oh, i guess you'd have to take immediate neighbors into account too 17:03:46 and that's how the 'surface' would come into play 17:04:11 i guess only orthogonal neighbors or you'd get very weird stuff on the grid-y layouts 17:04:40 I don't see what is wrong with "adjacent to target wall, visible to the player ignoring translucence of walls" 17:05:02 dpeg: because then you can't hit stuff with the spell that you could hit with, for example, fireball or a cloud spell 17:05:19 yes, but hitting out of sight monsters is a concern anyway 17:05:28 sure, but it should be consistent across spells 17:05:51 not necessarily... creation of a cloud is different from using a wall 17:06:07 (consistency is good, of course...) 17:06:11 i don't see why making a wall explode should be treated differently than firing a fireball at the same tile would be 17:16:40 03kilobyte * r525d316e3439 10/crawl-ref/source/player-stats.cc: Update burden on recovering from lost strength. 17:16:50 03kilobyte * rffb79818e5dc 10/crawl-ref/source/random.cc: Document lower and upper limits of random functions. 17:17:40 kilobyte: mandatory argument is good too. Push it like that. 17:17:44 And thanks! 17:19:11 I'll only have time for one sample Slime entry vault. 17:19:11 ugh, I wish Ash's very early game was better 17:19:20 I hate not being able to curse my stuff 17:19:53 galehar: wasn't this one half of the skill fuzzing project? 17:19:54 about smooth skills, we will need to change Ash's skill boost formula. Needs to give skill points, not skill levels 17:20:00 yes 17:20:47 yes, the smooth_skills branch is the fuzzing project :P 17:20:50 awesome 17:21:20 (Sorry for disturbing, I actually did consult the internet.) 17:21:56 dpeg: if you have an idea for a formula for the skill boost, I'm taking 17:22:10 sorry, no time now 17:22:17 and we also need to think about draining 17:22:25 yeah, I'm off to bed too 17:22:30 have to get up in six hours and want to get the sample vault in -- please check /msg 17:22:37 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: zzz] 17:22:41 argh 17:22:47 okay, has to wait until tomorrow 17:22:49 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 17:35:04 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:35:50 i can't believe i am now in 4 irc channels devoted to crawl :/ 17:35:50 mikee_: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:37:13 mikee_: you ar3e? :o 17:37:15 * due is only in two. 17:37:26 Well, okay, /maybe/ ##c-o could count as a third. 17:38:48 i was up to 5 at one point, it can get pretty bad 17:39:08 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:39:42 you're all freaks!!1 :D 17:40:14 if i joined the SA channel i could be in 5 =P 17:44:49 evilmike: i dug around the zot:5 vault and used scrying to map it and see where all the monsters were, actually 17:45:11 ahhh yes 17:45:15 and then changed the borders of the vault to be permarock, so you can't do that anymore 17:45:34 also before scrying was fixed i did the same thing except killed everything inside with firestorm :P 17:46:25 heh 17:46:31 i dunno if shatter working through walls is that big an issue, since it also destroys the walls? 17:46:37 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 17:46:40 maybe just permarock could stop it 17:46:46 the borders aren't really permarock btw 17:46:49 you can still get in 17:46:54 are you sure? 17:46:56 you have to break through stone, though. 17:47:07 is there a generally-accepted ranking of difficulty for the four pan levels and the four hells? 17:47:18 oh right, you can do but that requires you getting inside the vault itself first 17:47:22 like dis -> tar -> coc -> geh? 17:47:23 and making a lot of noise 17:47:39 you used to be able to dig around it from the outside and never even enter the vault 17:47:52 Wensley: dis and tar are easy; coc and geh are hard. mnoleg and lom are easy; cerebov and gloorx are hard 17:47:58 thanks 17:48:29 Wensley: there's dispute amongst which are easier/harder so I'll say it depends on the character and playstyle 17:48:40 i like your method of fixing things 17:48:48 1) abuse stuff. 2) fix that stuff 17:48:50 I don't need to be scientific here 17:48:51 haha 17:48:55 where by dispute i mean there's not really an agreement 17:49:01 have to prove that it needs fixing, first :P 17:50:30 tar can be pretty nasty, so can be lom. Gloorx is easy if you have any AC or EV. 17:53:33 kilobyte: I stumbled into your branch on my way to bed 17:53:37 a lot of people fear gloorx as much or more than cerebov, but i will agree that they are overestimating him somewhat 17:53:45 pushed a little commit 17:54:00 galehar sleeps in a tree 17:54:09 yeah 17:54:11 03galehar 07smooth_skills * rede91018e189 10/crawl-ref/source/ (output.cc player.cc player.h): Actually return partial skill values. 17:54:11 a git tree 17:54:16 * due commits galehar! 17:54:49 it's not really tested, but that's the idea 17:55:06 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: git push galehar bed] 18:13:24 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 18:15:16 !tell galehar uhm, ede91018e189 uses progress to next level, not to next skill rank 18:15:16 kilobyte: OK, I'll let galehar know. 18:28:47 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:42:45 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 18:45:38 Errors on the ?/B screen (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4568) by Wensleydale 18:56:22 -!- ldierk_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:59:35 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:02:21 03MarvinPA * rfad5289ab8fc 10/crawl-ref/source/art-func.h: Don't cost a turn when aborting the staff of Olgreb/Dispater due to lack of hp/mp 19:02:31 03MarvinPA * re0aca7aaab9a 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/gods.txt: Adjust Chei description a bit to mention passive slowing 19:08:52 make slowing yourself a temporary piety boost? :D 19:10:11 well it would get someone to actually cast that spell 19:12:48 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:20:49 Inventory screen on death can access wands and zap self for a second death (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4569) by Claws 20:02:34 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:22:22 -!- ldierk__ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:22:39 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:22:58 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:25:52 -!- ldierk_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:48:24 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:00 -!- ldierk_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:58:26 -!- ldierk__ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:47:28 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 21:49:48 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:12:44 marvinpa: Chei description still fails to mention stat gain or resists 22:14:44 elliptic: makes removing them all the easier 22:15:27 I'm all for removing the resists and weakening the stat gain if possible... it will be hard though 22:16:36 eronarn has the right kind of thinking for mcrawl 22:18:33 mcrawl? 22:20:02 an imaginary fork by mikee and monqy 22:20:16 intended to remove everything tedious from crawl and add some improvements 22:32:57 isn't that called trunk 22:33:17 -!- mikee_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:34:35 you'd think 22:49:56 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 22:53:21 "Okra" is of West African origin and is cognate with á»kwurụ in the Igbo language spoken in Nigeria. 22:56:48 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:05:28 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 23:21:04 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:25:14 !tell kilobyte hat of pondering currently isn't increasing movement delay at all, and I'm not sure why... want to take a look? 23:25:14 elliptic: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 23:26:46 elliptic, I think I'd have an idea as to why, but Im no wizard so. 23:27:00 -!- mikee_ has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it] 23:28:03 If I was a smart person, I'd say that instead of just pondering the player to x speed regardless of slots, that the speed is hard set to x instead 23:28:32 -!- mikee_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:28:38 yeah, that isn't what is happening though 23:29:16 this is some technical issue about the function that is supposed to scan worn artefacts for ponderousness not working 23:32:13 -!- mikee_ has quit [Client Quit] 23:39:02 So it wouldn't matter if they had 4 slots for ponderousness and 0 piety? 23:46:10 Hey elliptic do you know how to stop autoexplore when your buoyancy runs low? It seems that force_more_message doesn't do it 23:46:26 nvm 23:54:29 -!- Galefury has joined ##crawl-dev 23:54:48 hi 23:55:22 im asserting sometimes, seems pretty random but i can now reproduce it on my current save (offline) 23:55:28 its something about a hash map in store.cc 23:55:42 is this fixed by the recent revert of some thingy? 23:56:12 oh, nevermind, the revert is in the build im using 23:56:18 ==> brb mantis 23:58:40 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened]