00:00:45 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-657-g640f415 (32) 00:02:27 03dolorous * r0e6d7e0c27df 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Fix capitalization and alphabetical order in monster entries. 00:02:37 03dolorous * r73fd6cf6cf17 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Add more minor fixes to monster descriptions. 00:07:39 -!- elly has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:10:33 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:14:14 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-659-g0e6d7e0 00:24:15 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 00:28:11 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 00:28:31 zerome (L17 TrBe) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,21) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 00:29:42 wow that's a lot of parentheticals 00:32:38 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:05 03dolorous * r8162d8bfa2c0 10/crawl-ref/source/itemprop-enum.h: Move WPN_STAFF before WPN_MAX_NONBLESSED on next major version bump. 00:44:15 03dolorous * r36b9df40705e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (ng-setup.cc ng-wanderer.cc): Tweak random evokables for wanderers to match artificer changes better. 01:04:04 03dolorous * re24c5cf6bd73 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-gear.cc: Ensure that Grum's weapons are always reaching again (including whips). 01:13:08 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-657-g640f415 (32) 01:18:13 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:44:52 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 01:47:07 -!- purge has quit [Quit: .] 02:08:36 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:08:37 -!- syllogism has quit [Client Quit] 02:08:42 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:32:56 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 02:37:37 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:03:37 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:59:13 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:23:48 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 04:24:42 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:33:29 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 04:38:00 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:00:04 OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 05:02:16 !tell GreatZebu please catch me next time you are online 05:02:16 Napkin: OK, I'll let GreatZebu know. 05:11:47 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 05:14:00 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 05:14:43 -!- syllogism- has joined ##crawl-dev 05:16:48 -!- syllogism has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:17:00 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:26:17 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 05:35:19 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:41:57 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:15:04 !tell galehar somehow, if you start with a skill but due to bad apts get <1 with it, you get skill points but progress shows 0%. Like, Op{Be,AK,DK,CK,Sk} and SK_ARMOUR (for removal...) or MfSk (legitimate). 06:15:04 kilobyte: OK, I'll let galehar know. 06:22:43 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 06:28:10 -!- mumra has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Go on, try it!] 06:29:46 Eronarn: what should be done with skill points octopodes get on start in Armour? Moved to Dodging as skill ranks (+1)? Moved to Dodging as skill points (less than that)? Dropped without compensation? 06:36:52 kilobyte: moved to dodging sounds good to me. they're not great at dodging, but it's their only option 06:58:32 03kilobyte * rfec6a1b5259c 10/crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc: Mark manuals for maxed skills as useless. 06:58:32 03kilobyte * rdc792839b9de 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Mark the Armour skill as useless for octopodes. 06:58:32 03kilobyte * r9480d00d99e5 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc: Move octopodes' starting skill in Armour into Dodging. 06:58:33 03kilobyte * r886379810413 10/crawl-ref/source/misc.cc: Explain to players what happened to their finesse. 06:58:33 03kilobyte * r61b83b5a2b02 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Simplify special-casing of Vp's UC. 06:58:43 03kilobyte * r310f501f2099 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Assert out if a character would start with an useless skill. 07:08:38 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:10:27 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:23:27 edlothiol: so, uhm... what's the point in CDO running only an ancient version? 07:27:49 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 07:39:54 kilobyte: "ancient version" meaning 0.9.1? 07:39:54 edlothiol: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 07:40:34 trunk builds would be nice, of course 07:53:50 yeah, 0.9 is where you break flint to hope it has sharp edges, and you can't even polish it yet 08:04:07 trunk builds would require some more infrastructure... it's probably not much that's missing, I have to talk to Napkin about it 08:05:20 yeah, it needs automatism 08:05:58 anyways, edlothiol :D 08:06:09 read my !tell messages ;) 08:06:33 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:10:36 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 08:52:47 -!- Pingas has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:53:32 -!- Pingas has joined ##crawl-dev 08:57:06 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:08:08 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:19:44 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 09:19:45 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:25:48 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:49:22 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:49:31 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:42:22 -!- edlothiol has quit [Quit: bye] 10:47:13 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:54:45 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:02:35 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 11:08:04 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:08:27 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:17:16 !seen galehar 11:17:17 I last saw galehar at Sat Sep 10 19:56:34 2011 UTC (20h 20m 42s ago) quitting with message Remote host closed the connection. 11:26:09 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 11:28:01 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:28:46 not much going on, back later 11:31:03 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 11:47:05 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 11:49:55 elliptic: do you remember that Black Knight horse's barding we've talked about before? How good an enchantment would be worth losing centaur's speed? My current concept is: +X AC, Slow, rN+ Hunger- 11:50:23 oh man, I love that idea 11:50:24 regular non-artefact barding of life prot is +4 rN+ 11:50:27 <3 <3 <3 11:50:44 Wensley: together with naga barding of speedy slithering :) 11:50:49 haha 11:53:18 dpeg: the discussed theme is that a "Black Knight" had his ride wear a really heavy-set piece of armour, granting great AC but making the horse slow. However, elliptic suggested it'd be better to offset centaurs' #1 gripe: hunger, so current theme says it makes the horse (centaur) slightly undeadish 11:54:32 I like this idea a lot, very tf2 11:55:03 "tf2"? 11:55:13 add a black knight set of boots that make you ponderous because they are so heavy 11:55:45 he has no legs anymore, he can at most bleed at you :p 12:00:27 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 12:01:39 kilobyte: I don't like it having ponderousness at all 12:01:43 makes it extremely unattractive 12:03:50 think about how often you use other boots over boots of running... 12:04:23 I think the undeadish theme can make it interesting without having to give it +10 AC or something to make it attractive 12:05:09 hmm, actually the movement delay is still 9 12:05:22 (7 naturally) 12:06:04 back 12:07:01 kilobyte: awesome idea (re centaur barding) 12:08:32 would be cool if nessos was wearing it, rarely 12:08:42 "nessos looks especially undead today" 12:12:14 well, if you'd still be faster than average then it could still be attractive with ponderousness, maybe? 12:12:43 although a barding of rF or rC might be a better choice in that case 12:13:04 the undead-ish theme is cool either way 12:13:37 depending on how much hunger being undead-ish eliminates, it could be more desirable for the endgame than a barding of rF or rC 12:14:03 it would be cool if the undead effect was like gourmand, where you become more undead the longer you wear it 12:14:18 and perhaps for a sort while after taking it off, too 12:14:19 centaurs actually dont have that much more trouble getting a stockpile of food 12:14:30 their hunger usually just means you have to eat chunks more often, not eat rations more often 12:14:50 so, hunger- is more of a convenience than a real endgame priority 12:14:52 also, remember dpeg's idea with food reform was to take fast hunger from centaurs and replace if with herbivore 1 12:15:08 s/replace if/replace it 12:15:58 evilmike: we're planning to reduce chunks 12:16:06 not sure it'll matter for Ce, though 12:16:16 probably wouldn't affect too much 12:17:04 &*#^*@^$*$@^ tiles have some ugly special-casing for bardings :( 12:17:22 please keep thinking while I swear and debug it 12:17:59 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 12:18:24 http://sprunge.us/AWKY has the current version of the descriptions 12:19:01 (clumsy, too) 12:20:13 tiles are already drawn and that takes me a lot of time so there is no way back :p But you still can completely overhaul the properties. 12:21:11 kilobyte: good! 12:22:18 perhaps reduce AC for the centaur barding and give it rF rC rN instead? 12:23:07 elliptic hates ponderousness, although not sure if he thought the speed will be 10 not 9 12:23:09 hm, that could be a little overkill 12:23:25 I realized it was 9, I still hate it :P 12:23:52 might be okay if it gives something more interesting than just lots of AC though 12:23:54 rC rN would still fit the undead theme though, and maybe be appealing even with slow? 12:23:59 what happened to the idea of giving other undead resists? 12:24:04 yeah, rPois too maybe 12:24:07 torment resistance? 12:24:10 nah 12:24:19 that would be interesting, imo 12:24:23 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:24:30 replace rF with rPois imo 12:24:40 eronarn: yeah 12:25:32 rN is already mild torment resistance, and pretty good if you can reach +++ 12:25:44 true 12:26:53 so something like +3 rC rPois rN hunger- slow, maybe? 12:27:05 or whatever's a decent enchantment level 12:27:08 just +3?? 12:27:25 should be higher, you can get to 4 with just scrolls 12:27:26 more than that and less than +10, then :P 12:29:53 evilmike might purposefully try to get the enchantment as high as possible. Danger! 12:30:19 marvinpa: +5 12:30:26 i miss +8 bardings 12:31:08 maybe +6 12:31:34 it's an artefact and a rare find, so you can go wild... within reason, of course 12:34:05 hey kilobyte, you'd probably know this - how easy is it to make unrands be able to generate more than once? 12:37:55 "glowing/runed demon whip"s not marked as forbidden for worshippers of good gods (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4530) by reid 12:38:05 dolorous did commit today but did not reply to me Elyvilon request :( 12:38:28 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 12:38:33 Hi! 12:38:45 evening 12:38:49 dpeg: how would you feel about giving zin stat boosts like chei has? 12:38:58 Got enough minion names? :) 12:39:11 dpeg: plenty to be going on with :) 12:39:32 (can't do any more work on it for a day or two anyway) 12:39:39 no problem 12:42:03 Eronarn: do you mean, randomly or in some other way? 12:45:43 kilobyte: an initial idea is: zin rewards clean living. there's the current probition on cannibalism, but no such prohibition for eating unclean meat 12:46:17 so, introduce an 'optional' conduct - zin doesn't frown on you for eating unclean meat, but if you abstain from it (eat only clean chunks, clean food) you *slowly* build up to a stat boost 12:46:40 and a large chunk of it goes away if you eat anything unclean 12:47:33 i think this would be very flavorful, and not too much of an interface hassle since unclean stuff is already colored as such 12:48:51 it'd also be an incentive to not take the saprovore races with zin, emphasizing that their eating unclean stuff may not be outlawed but it's not kosher :) 12:49:22 (or, let me rephrase: it would mean that saprovore isn't just an 'easy out' for zin's caloric restrictions) 13:08:22 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 13:08:37 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:08:54 MarvinPA: What do you think about changing the Vehumet spell gift Implementable when it comes about how to gift? Instead of gifting spells into memory, have V announce a spell is ready to be memorised and make it an 'a'bility. This increases the player's flexibility a lot. 13:09:45 "receive spell" 13:09:46 (And it is a simple way to do this, something more elaborate might be invented once we can playtest this.) 13:10:57 dpeg: hmm, that could work, does it really make a big difference though? 13:11:06 i guess in terms of letting you free up slots? 13:11:11 MarvinPA: yes, exactly. 13:11:33 with the current proposal, the player has to keep track of how many free slots there and what potential gifts could be 13:11:45 how would it decide when to offer the next gift? 13:11:50 i think gifting spells right into memory would work better for sif, where you have amnesia, or a god demanding single-minded focus and you aren't supposed to have free spell slots except as that god allows you to 13:12:31 this might be more hassle than it's worth -- if we make sure that V's offer is pretty short (V does not have a lot of patience, have to enditinhellfirerealsoon), think 50 turns; this would make ?amnesia a critical item for Vehumetists 13:12:38 MarvinPA: it would be cool if you let vehumet cast the spell through you, which is how you learn it. offer a spell during high-tension situations, and if you cast it before the tension goes away, it gets a large power boost and becomes a memorized spell 13:13:02 MarvinPA: 50 turns answers the question? 13:13:08 ah okay, it just expires 13:13:21 or better: 50 turns or piety threshold loss 13:13:43 Eronarn: Sif will change too, we just need a proposal. Where is Wensley when you need him? 13:13:47 haha 13:13:51 :) 13:14:06 Wensley: if you have something, don't polish so long, just throw it out 13:14:07 I was planning on just coding it myself and shoving it on my server... but I guess I'll have to write it up to prove that all these ideas weren't just taken from you guys :P 13:14:08 it could be good for making the ability a little more flexible, maybe it could be added to the implementable as just an optional extra? 13:14:16 MarvinPA: yes, for example 13:14:29 would be nice to have but probably not vital for a first draft of the ability 13:14:38 ability/mechanic 13:14:40 thing 13:14:53 MarvinPA: I like this a bit better (if we want to make it a bit easier for players) than offering three spells -- that look an awful lot like Triple Draw 13:14:59 MarvinPA: sure 13:16:16 Wensley: is your sif redo going to have the library? 13:16:18 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:16:26 Wensley: but if you just code it, we cannot discuss it beforehand! This might lead to confusion, discontent or even banishment to the Abyss. Why not discuss in advance? 13:16:27 Eronarn: it's not librarian-themed, no 13:16:43 dpeg: okay, it's just that as a coder I naturally hate writing specifications :P 13:17:07 dpeg: on the other hand, octos were panned until people actually got a chance to play them :P 13:17:10 Wensley: but we couldn't take it without someone give some form of specification anyway! 13:17:11 I'll put in on the wiki in the next four hours, gotta prioritize some stuff 13:17:33 Eronarn: true, but there is a certain risk... I am not sure if Lava Orc will go the same way as the calimari. 13:17:42 Wensley: merci beaucoup! 13:17:58 dpeg: if nothing else, people like the temperature mechanic idea a lot - we could use it for a spell, or a monster 13:18:05 it might not be a viable race though, yeah 13:18:13 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:18:17 sure 13:18:37 could be a cool new tmut form 13:18:39 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18:46 or a cool new god :) 13:18:51 ssshhhh 13:19:20 now people will want me to write up my idea for the flamekeeper god too 13:19:55 * Eronarn needs to write up pact god, but needs to have a fleshed out idea first :( 13:20:28 so many god changes :P 13:20:41 it might be a good idea to remove the altars from the vaults i've been uploading 13:21:32 evilmike: hehe. I will revise and them push them over the weekend, cannot do it now. 13:22:08 sure, no hurry though. I'm only about half way through my ideas... leaving yred for last because I want to use a profane servitor 13:22:15 ok 13:22:46 evilmike: they're in @?? now btw, if you wanted to look at the stats 13:22:57 yeah, pretty strong! 13:23:02 i think they need a bit of nerfing 13:23:08 i figured they might get nerfed before i get around to making a yred vault 13:23:13 which is why i'm putting it off for a while 13:23:26 how often does @?? get updated? because http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/bots is still showing the old tile for catoblepas 13:23:30 i intended them to be around the level of bone dragons in combat, but right now they win against most things because of the speed + vampirism 13:23:38 Wensley: has to be done manually 13:24:11 that page still uses the fetus tile for orb guardians 13:24:16 aka the true tile 13:24:42 I like the X. It's delightfully geoduck-ish. 13:24:56 its funnier getting killed by floating babies though 13:27:55 When has that dragon tile even existed 13:30:09 can we rename dragons yet :( 13:30:32 to fire dragons? 13:30:40 or lava, or volcano, or etc. 13:30:59 see also imps 13:31:31 i like that idea because it makes talking about dragon armours easier 13:31:37 yes 13:32:01 also it fits where we've been going with 'generics' a lot better ('spider', 'giant') 13:32:11 If we can agree on terminology here, then sure. 13:32:11 oh yeah, Fiends, those too 13:33:18 dpeg: my proposal: volcano or lava dragon (fire is boring); crimson imp; ash or brimstone fiend 13:33:50 (or scarlet instead of crimson, if we think this sounds better) 13:34:16 I am fine with anything. If you can get support from kilobyte, elliptic and MarvinPA, I will ask the others and we'll change the names. 13:35:27 Wait, what... Did glow get a name change?! 13:35:41 crimson imp and brimstone fiend sound fine to me 13:35:53 I like the dragon suggestions less well for some reason 13:35:58 ghallberg: yes. 'Glow' is now 'Contam'; being in a halo is now 'Glow' 13:36:07 ok 13:36:14 the dragons are actually a little problematic... both volcanoes and lava exist in the game, with no connection to the dragon 13:36:16 eronarn: did you also have an idea for changing name for white imp? 13:36:20 dpeg: yes 13:36:26 ^ written before elliptic's reply! :) 13:36:30 would pit fiends stay the same? 13:36:42 it looks like the demons branch didn't change them... they're still just "slow fiends" 13:36:59 white imp could perhaps be improved but at least it is functional 13:37:01 elliptic: i'd actually like them to be 'snow imps' which throw snowballs at you :) 13:37:05 slow fiends with more AC and HP 13:37:15 @??lorocyproca 13:37:15 lorocyproca (022) | Speed: 10 | HD: 12 | Health: 47-87 | AC/EV: 10/12 | Damage: 25, 25 | Flags: 05demonic, sense invisible | Res: 06magic(112), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1176. 13:37:17 fire dragon sounds okay to me, if a little boring 13:37:21 demon isn't merged in i guess 13:37:28 eronarn: definitely in favor of that if snowballs don't destroy potions 13:37:48 kilobyte: imp -> crimson imp, fiend -> brimstone fiend, dragon -> fire dragon ? 13:37:50 elliptic: i was thinking that snowballs are low cold damage, but have a chance of blinding you 13:37:50 white imp is annoying currently because it is usually quite harmless but will still destroy potions if you ignore it 13:38:11 dpeg: well, there is a standard meaning for the word "dragon" 13:38:21 fire dragon sounds strange to me 13:38:22 elliptic: hey, you are supposed to support item destruction! 13:38:25 it's the others who are rare variants 13:38:25 in our world, sure, but not in a fantasy world really 13:38:26 Wyrm 13:38:42 dpeg: yes, but not from random summons :) 13:38:42 like, the existence of an "electric chair" doesn't mean we should rename ordinary chairs 13:38:51 kilobyte: not standard for me... I didn't grow up with rpgs 13:39:08 white imp potion destruction isn't particularly interesting 13:39:15 I like ash more than brimstone for fiends, brimstone is too wordy 13:39:21 do white imps still use some weird special thing rather than normal throw frost 13:39:22 dpeg: I actually had parents and grandparents tell/read fairy tales to me :p 13:39:25 chinese dragons aren't associated with fire at all, they have more to do with water! 13:39:26 geh is an ashen vally after all 13:39:30 Any destruction is better than no destruction. I have Vehumet on my side for this one. 13:40:00 kilobyte: I don't really care too much, but the question about dragon armours comes up from time to time. 13:40:02 st_: brimstone sounds more hellfirey to me 13:40:19 kilobyte: dragons in fairy tales are different from dragons in a fantasy setting. people would call it a 'fire dragon', not a 'dragon', precisely because other kinds of dragons aren't rare variants 13:40:24 also, traditional fantasy tales (books, etc) all have dragons use fire; I can't think of any single other type. That's D&Dism. 13:40:28 (most dragons are *not* fire dragons in crawl!) 13:40:55 kilobyte: I agree and I think it's not good but unfortunately our crawling ancestors have succumbed to this. 13:41:20 kilobyte: as evilmike just said, chinese dragons 13:42:17 Anyone knows about the status of the holy monsters? 13:42:25 Eronarn: it's about the usage in the language 13:42:25 This has a holy dragon. 13:42:48 ??pearl dragon[2] 13:42:49 pearl dragon[2/2]: Up to 162 per breath plus 48 per turn in clouds. Cerebov's firestorm is up to 136 (76 with rF+++) + resistable clouds. "Caution advised" is an understatement. 13:43:01 let's say a bit of balancing is needed 13:43:17 kilobyte: 'red dragon' for fire dragons is quite well established in modern english fantasy 13:43:37 Eronarn: fantasy or D&D? 13:43:46 I'd be okay with Red Dragon too. 13:43:57 kilobyte: D&D is fantasy 13:44:08 dragon >>>>> red dragon >> fire dragon 13:44:10 and modern non-fantasy draws a lot from D&D 13:44:15 er, non-D&D fantasy 13:44:43 let's call it Standard Dragon 13:45:07 even 'common dragon' would be a lot better than the 'dragon' status quo, really 13:45:40 Eronarn: as someone who reads books, calling D&D "fantasy" is akin to, say, calling the LotR movies "works of Tolkien" 13:45:48 I'm not sure how big the confusion really is. But it does come up from time to time. 13:46:10 03kilobyte * r5c9aed9f7f93 10/crawl-ref/source/ (10 files in 5 dirs): Two new artefact bardings. (Hate hate hate hate tile barding code) 13:46:21 03kilobyte * race582297502 10/crawl-ref/source/ (describe.cc itemname.cc): Autoinscribe naga bardings as {sslith} rather than {run}. 13:46:21 kilobyte: D&D is most definitely fantasy, and very influential fantasy, even if you don't personally like it 13:46:35 but anyway, I finally managed to finally wrestle the tile barding code 13:47:06 a bad pile of special cases, I didn't have enough motivation left to untangle them 13:48:28 Eronarn: sadly, there are people who actually watched that idiot's "LotR" movies. There even might be more of them than those who read the books. Still, this doesn't mean I have anything but derision. 13:48:56 D&D has a few actual new ideas here and there, perhaps 13:49:04 (kenku :P ) 13:50:33 Wensley: a mutilated version of a japanese myth 13:50:55 I'm not defending it, I think kenku are weird! 13:51:03 our kenku are the D&D versions 13:51:12 so our are... lots of other things 13:51:59 kilobyte: could you live with Common Dragon? 13:52:00 ok, sorry if I sound jaded... need to calm down after the bardings in tiles shit 13:52:03 Also thanks for new bardings! 13:52:30 dpeg: could work 13:52:34 kilobyte: Can I get dragon renamed if we drop windows and tiles support? :) 13:52:47 :p 13:53:05 crawl's dragons are hardly the most common/base form of dragon though 13:53:16 they're just one of many types of dragon, that happens to breathe fire 13:53:20 unidentified "runed" or "glowing" non-ego polearms are grey instead of blue (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4531) by Fusha 13:53:25 MarvinPA: we talk about that in the description 13:53:41 MarvinPA: how they used to be the most common type but in the dungeon and mutation etcetc 13:53:53 whle we're renaming things, how about renaming holy swine to pearl swine :P 13:54:09 Wensley: oh, that is beautiful. Any objections? 13:54:10 elliptic: would you care to edit the properties and/or description of the centaur barding to your tastes? 13:54:11 or just removing holy swine and blocking demon/holy polymorph because seriously what the hell 13:54:12 fair enough, i don't see what's wrong with fire dragon though 13:54:42 and "common dragon armour" isn't very descriptive 13:54:47 MarvinPA: kilobyte objects for sentimental reasons and out of spite for D&D (who would blame him) and we want to move on :) 13:54:58 MarvinPA: true, btu functional! 13:55:02 well i don't see what any of it has to do with d&d either :P 13:55:09 sorry, still upset, going away now 13:55:15 :( 13:55:16 could just call them green dragons, unless eronarn wants to put forest wyrms on green D 13:55:30 (whoever has an idea for the barding's properties, please do so) 13:55:32 Wensley: i would like to have green D for forest wyrms but i can live without it 13:55:47 kilobyte: the version you have is probably fine, I wasn't sold on the ideas that were tossed around here earlier actually being better 13:55:52 MarvinPA: developers should out a form which contains checkboxes likes "I agree that D&D is bullshit." 13:55:59 -!- Twinge_ is now known as Twinge 13:56:15 and "I'd rather die than play Nethack." etc 13:56:20 naming dragons after colours or metals is much more of a d&dism than "fire dragon" or whatever 13:56:23 i don't have any particular opinions in favour of or against d&d, i just don't see what it has to do with anything in this instance :P 13:56:40 why should d&d stop us from changing things for improved clarity? 13:57:02 MarvinPA: sure, mostly joking here 13:57:18 I agree that renaming dragons could be useful, but I haven't heard any name I like 13:57:31 volcano dragon and lava dragon are meh 13:57:45 But I believe that Tolkien and D&D have set up some tropes which vary between questionable, silly and stupid (yes, stupid -- my son has a Monster Manual). 13:58:03 dpeg: you let your son read d&d source books?! 13:58:10 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:58:11 haha, I have a bunch of old d&d monster manuals, some of the stuff in there is great 13:58:37 there are so many monsters that are just [adjective] [animal] 13:58:39 really old d&d can be pretty hilarious for how wacky it is 13:58:43 Wensley: got it as a gift from Jeff Lait and it has some nice pictures. But the monster ideas are so profane, it is embarassing... the lack of fantasy is quite appalling to me. 13:59:09 evilmike: flail snail 13:59:12 (And here I mean "fantasy" in its original meaning.) 13:59:21 http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/d&d%20beasts%20flail%20snail.jpg 13:59:28 gahah 13:59:41 Mu_: hi! What do you think on the matter? 13:59:43 dpeg: http://www.somethingawful.com/d/dungeons-and-dragons/wtf-monster-manual.php 13:59:52 what's the discussion exactly 13:59:57 isn't SA closed now? 14:00:03 my favourite ever is probably "terror birds" although those were actually real animals 14:00:10 imp -> crimson imp, fiend -> brimstone fiend, dragon -> common dragon ? 14:00:14 Mu_: changing the name of "dragon" to "fire dragon" or "common dragon" or something else 14:00:26 oh 14:00:29 fire dragon is also meh 14:00:38 flame dragon is slightly better, but still sort of meh 14:00:43 the somethingawful forums are still active, although I cant say much about them other than that, I only post on the crawl thread 14:00:45 don't have a strong opinion 14:00:48 personally I don't like common dragon and am ambivalent between dragon and fire dragon 14:00:59 Mu_: kilobyte maintains that (at least in an European context) the default dragon one breathes fire. Which is true but distorted by D&D, and Crawl does not really conform. 14:01:10 can we at least do the imp/fiend for now? we can get dragons later if people can't agree 14:01:11 call them "european dragons" 14:01:21 :) 14:01:26 Continental Dragon 14:01:30 evilmike: closed for non-payers 14:01:46 Mu_: oh, and holy swine -> pearl swine 14:01:48 dpeg: oh, I think they close the forums every once and a while to try to encourage registrations 14:01:48 I don't really like flame foo. 14:01:52 cannot really argue against that 14:01:56 I think it might be like 1 week epr month that they do that 14:02:09 i don't like pearl swine and don't actually know why holy swine exist :P 14:02:09 evilmike: was less in the recent past, I think 14:02:13 dpeg: while we're at it, the tavern folks doing the text improvement spreadsheet had a few monsters they were trying to rename, such as spider -> cave spider. do you want me to go through and collect all those to see if you like them? 14:02:29 Mu_: no idea why they exist, but "pearl swine", that is glorious! 14:02:43 Mu_: they exist because demons were made polymorphable so kirke can turn demons into hell hogs, and there then needed to be a holy analogue 14:02:50 it's the stupidest thing 14:02:53 Wensley: sure! Right after your Sif proposal :) (I am a god person very much.) 14:03:01 haha, okay :) 14:03:09 oh i don't really think you should be able to polymorph anything that has unnatural holiness 14:03:10 * Wensley shakes his fist! 14:03:12 holies can't be polymorphed anymore anyway 14:03:29 @??holy swine 14:03:29 holy swine (08h) | Speed: 14 | HD: 11 | Health: 41-80 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Damage: 2008(holy) | Flags: 08holy | Res: 06magic(44), 04rot, 13neg+++, 08holy | XP: 982. 14:03:39 since it didn't make any sense with the current selection of holy monsters 14:03:41 then why do holy swine even still exist (also remove demon polymorphing) 14:03:52 i guess they could be used as holy fodder enemies 14:03:55 all the other holies are scary 14:04:01 demon polying seems sort of okay now 14:04:03 @??paladin 14:04:03 paladin (16@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 48-82 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 26 | Flags: 08holy, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(40), 04rot, 13neg+++, 08holy | XP: 812. 14:04:12 paladins come with blessed blades :P 14:04:17 the only problem with it is perma allies, and that's a problem with perma allies 14:04:29 i feel like holy monsters should be rare and powerful, they don't need a class of chaff 14:04:31 (still there is no reason for demon polying to exist) 14:04:33 MarvinPA: I have deleted ryzol's comment in the V Implementable and your reply, btw. Don't wonder. 14:04:48 aha, okay 14:05:22 elliptic: b-b-but hell hogs... 14:05:28 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:05:28 and added the ability idea instead 14:05:49 !lg * killer=grinder the hellephant 14:05:49 1. AStranger the Skirmisher (L5 DEWn), blasted by Grinder the hellephant (blast of flame) on D:5 on 2011-08-23, with 364 points after 6734 turns and 0:17:00. 14:05:54 maybe that's a reason for demon polying to exist 14:06:02 okay that's a pretty convincing argument 14:06:10 The pair "hell hogs" - "pearl swine" is something much closer to Japanese imagination than D&D. I hope =) 14:06:33 haha, how on earth did taht happen 14:06:34 that* 14:06:38 dunno, it was webtiles 14:06:42 !tv * killer 14:06:42 Malformed argument: killer 14:06:42 asdfasd 14:06:46 webtiles :( 14:06:49 evilmike: make a rare vault with holy swine inside, maybe use that for a late D tso vault 14:06:50 maybe because grinder's unique? 14:07:05 Wensley: when i think of tso i dont think "pigs" 14:07:17 pearl swines should always come in groups 14:07:17 evilmike: make it a joint tso/xom temple 14:07:40 fake tso temple that reveals itself as xom when you go inside?? 14:07:41 dpeg: Along with giant oysters... 14:07:47 holy pigs is really silly 14:08:20 Mu_: humour is questionable... but I really like a fair share of wackiness. 14:08:51 -!- syllogism- has quit [] 14:09:35 Japanese designers are so much better with really weird stuff that somehow holds together. /me is envious. 14:11:17 i dunno about that, when i think of generic fantasy in japanese video games, jrpgs seem just as cookie-cutter as anything else 14:11:23 though, i've only played ones from the 90's 14:11:53 there are exceptions of course... but mostly not in the mainstream 14:12:09 evilmike: Erik once compiled a list of Shiren monsters for me, and it was impressive. I also know about shmups... American/European games tend to be a lot more serious and mainstream with the theme. 14:12:24 And don't let me get to the music... :) 14:12:31 oh, shiren is a good example of a game with lots of cool stuff in it 14:12:43 but it's definitely not mainstream, compared to say, dragon quest or final fantasy 14:13:09 Doesn't even FF have its share of strange stuff? 14:13:32 i don't really like things that only seem to exist for the sake of symmetry. that's mainly a problem for elemental stuff ('there is a fire xyz, so let's have an ice xyz!') but it seems like holy swine only exist because there are hell hogs? and those holy toes too only exist because there are curse toes. just seems silly to me. 14:13:34 the early games tended to be extremely generic (the first one's plot was something like "kill the evil wizard!" I think) 14:13:42 and there are about 4 of them which are about saving magic crystals 14:13:57 not a big deal though, i dunno much about the holy monsters so. 14:14:00 I liked them better when they didn't have plots 14:14:03 in the late 90s they tended to go a bit more steampunk or futuristic 14:14:18 the later games, the plots are just ridiculous and make no sense on all sorts of levels 14:14:36 Mu_: agree about the symmetry, but having toes in the first place is awesome! 14:14:56 oh yeah another thing- the fire emblem series (japanese tactical rpg series) is straight-up european style fantasy 14:14:57 i like curse toes but i think adding holy toes makes them both less interesting 14:14:59 newer final fantasy games have really weird stuff, but it doesn't really work. a lot of the monsters are just incoherent combinations of random objects 14:15:18 Wensley: hm, sounds like Crawl :) 14:15:47 I disagree :P 14:15:48 i like the part in ff6 where you fight a zombie train 14:21:56 Mu_: so we need Holy [other bodypart]", obviously! 14:22:10 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:22:12 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:23:57 "tongue of the martyr" 14:24:24 no Holy Haemorrhoids? 14:24:25 well curse toes are funny because it pokes fun at that whole D&D thing of liches being so old and powerful that they're reduced to just a floating skull or whatever. and they summon fungus which is also funny. i don't think you necessarily need a holy version of this for any reason :P 14:25:03 Mu_: I agree. It was pretty hard to come up with good holy monsters. 14:25:14 yeah, I don't think that a holy counterpart to curse toes is really necessary, although I think blessed heads are potentially a good idea 14:26:24 -!- elly has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:27:33 a holy curse skull? 14:28:05 i'd rather see something like a holy shrine 14:28:14 its a good thing holies dont have to be totally symmetrical, otherwise there'd be life cobs 14:28:20 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 14:28:42 I want cherubs. 14:28:48 mindless, doesn't actually 'cast', but holy creatures come to its aid if you try to damage it 14:28:58 * dpeg wonders if 'death cob' is a joke on 'death cop'. 14:29:00 more like a statue than a curse skull 14:29:07 Eronarn: i was thinkin of something similar, but a chalice :P 14:29:19 angelic plant 14:29:41 Tree of Knowledge 14:29:47 Wensley: that'd actually be cool. It could generate apples. 14:29:53 or figs :P 14:30:40 if you've seen the indiana jones movies, you should know that holy objects can be fun 14:30:46 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:30:54 evening 14:30:55 galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 14:30:58 !messages 14:31:00 (1/1) kilobyte said (8h 15m 56s ago): somehow, if you start with a skill but due to bad apts get <1 with it, you get skill points but progress shows 0%. Like, Op{Be,AK,DK,CK,Sk} and SK_ARMOUR (for removal...) or MfSk (legitimate). 14:31:12 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 14:31:25 would like to see more Zin holies for sure, though 14:31:32 they get just what right now - silver stars, mennas? 14:31:36 !seen kilobyte 14:31:37 I last saw kilobyte at Sun Sep 11 18:55:30 2011 UTC (36m 6s ago) saying (whoever has an idea for the bardings properties, please do so) on ##crawl-dev. 14:31:45 galehar, Keskitalo: imp -> crimson imp, fiend -> brimstone fiend, dragon -> common dragon, holy swine -> pearl swine ? 14:31:59 The first two seem unambiguous, the last two not. 14:32:20 common dragon? 14:32:44 galehar: yeah :) kilobyte maintains that the standard dragon in European tales is the fiery one. 14:33:05 But there is opposition to Red/Fire/Flame/Lava/Volcano Dragon. 14:33:30 kilobyte: progress for unknown skills is hidden 14:33:57 Red Dragon is to D&D I guess? 14:34:11 training is set to 0 or you can gain a skill without using it which is strange. 14:34:28 galehar: you have to !tell him, he left in disgust about barding tiles code. 14:35:36 !tell kilobyte progress for unknown skills is hidden. training is set to 0 or you can gain a skill without using it which is strange. 14:35:37 galehar: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 14:36:51 i don't like red dragon just because ours aren't red 14:37:01 if we moved them to red it would be fine but there were issues with doing that 14:37:57 soot dragon 14:38:10 issues = xtahua? 14:39:09 Wensley: i proposed making dragons red, xtahua lightred, forest wyrms green. issue people had with this is berserk D-glyphs in zot 14:40:25 Eronarn: implement character combining, then give berserk things ˇ for angry eyebrows 14:40:40 in my rc i have dragons as red, swamp dragons green, mottled dragons brown and xtahua lightmagenta 14:41:44 !learn add octopode Octopus on land: http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lr35mlO6gd1qiamsto1_500.jpg 14:42:51 octopode[2/2]: Octopus on land: http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lr35mlO6gd1qiamsto1_500.jpg 14:43:03 ??octopus 14:43:05 octopus[1/5]: Experimental race now available in trunk on CDO. 8 ring slots, amulet, and a hat (but no helmets). Wields items normally, but also has tentacle attacks. Further information available at: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:octopus 14:43:20 !learn mv octopode[2] octopus[6] 14:43:20 octopode[2] -> octopus[6/6]: Octopus on land: http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lr35mlO6gd1qiamsto1_500.jpg 14:43:24 ??octopus[5] 14:43:24 octopus[5/6]: How octopodes use shields: http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&v=1DoWdHOtlrk&gl=US 15:01:35 the mac titles version freezes some times 15:13:12 -!- Chousuke has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:19:40 -!- Chousuke has joined ##crawl-dev 15:36:11 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 15:45:35 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 15:46:48 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:50:35 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 15:52:55 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54:58 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:05:59 -!- elly has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:10:06 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 16:20:27 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 16:21:30 -!- valrus_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:25:06 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:25:31 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:57:56 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:59:59 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 17:02:17 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 17:09:03 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:12:36 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:31 -!- valrus__ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:19:51 -!- valrus_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:20:58 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 17:26:22 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 17:39:58 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:50:23 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 17:56:36 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 17:57:41 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:20:10 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 18:20:18 03MarvinPA * re4ee7edf0437 10/crawl-ref/source/art-func.h: Don't spend a turn and hp/mp costs when aborting hellfire from the Staff of Dispater 18:20:28 03MarvinPA * r2c1f3c1887cc 10/crawl-ref/source/art-func.h: Change the evocable effect of the Sceptre of Asmodeus to summon temporarily charmed demons 18:22:09 03elliptic * r33a3bd5551be 10/crawl-ref/source/ (beam.cc spl-data.h): Make Mephitic Cloud and Evaporate clouds less guaranteed. 18:28:54 -!- elly has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:29:15 -!- due has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:29:18 nerf spotted! 18:30:33 I'm sure you mean that MarvinPA nerfed the sceptre of asmodeus ;) 18:32:15 haha 18:32:35 maybe it'll still be rubbish, yeah 18:33:04 (seriously I don't think it was possible to nerf it) 18:33:27 but but bolts of fire and lightning and draining 18:33:39 they're useful in hell, right? :P 18:34:15 bolts of fire are good in cocytus! 18:37:27 -!- Jude has joined ##crawl-dev 18:37:27 -!- Jude has quit [Changing host] 18:37:27 -!- Jude has joined ##crawl-dev 18:37:46 fr: make hell lord artifacts more like megaman 18:38:14 -!- Jude is now known as due 18:39:33 what do people think of the idea of having cFly amulet give you some sort of EV boost if you are flying with one on? 18:39:44 hooray 18:39:49 I finally have UTF-8 in irssi! 18:39:51 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 18:40:56 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 18:42:30 ??archmagi 18:42:31 robe of the archmagi[1/1]: Acts as one enhancer for all spells. 18:45:17 elliptic: do we even need to keep cfly around? 18:46:04 not necessarily 18:46:53 it's great in Shoals, useful in Swamp, pointless everywhere else 18:47:17 the +EV idea sounds good to me 18:51:09 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 19:05:24 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25:21 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:28:21 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:42:54 -!- Pingas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:11:17 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:15:38 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 20:22:38 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:10 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 20:53:11 -!- Fail_Bot has joined ##crawl-dev 20:59:58 So: I cleared my cache and all that, and Im still getting this crazy thing 21:00:06 where everything stacks on top of eachother 21:00:09 whenever someone moves 21:03:27 Eronarn: GET EQUIPPED WITH 21:03:36 STAFF OF DISPATER 21:07:35 ahhh what is that from 21:07:42 oh right 21:07:52 megaman 21:09:51 zerome (L13 TrNe) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,21) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 21:11:07 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21:06 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:26:50 -!- valrus__ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:00:24 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 22:06:24 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12:10 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12:40 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:28:12 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:46 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 22:35:20 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest59393 22:49:47 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:49:55 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 22:52:46 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:02:35 -!- greatzebu has joined ##crawl-dev 23:10:08 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:20:05 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:20:51 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 23:59:43 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]