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01:21:20 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-558-g04fb28f (32)
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02:48:26 <Zaba> galehar, new mimics look great!
02:48:35 <galehar> :)
02:49:36 <Zaba> galehar, they're not even affected by &G and such :>
02:49:57 <galehar> yes, they are not monsters until revealed
02:50:03 <Zaba> that's really nice
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03:11:26 <cx1213> are the mac dev build broken?
03:12:37 <Zaba> cx1213, what's wrong with them? (not trying to suggest that nothing is, I have no idea)
03:12:54 <cx1213> in the rrs feed there are no new builds
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04:15:16 <galehar> MarvinPA_: around?
04:18:55 <elliptic> galehar: so is it supposed to be possible to go up and down staircase mimics?
04:19:13 <galehar> no
04:19:17 <elliptic> _There is a stone staircase leading up here.
04:19:17 <elliptic> _You climb upwards.
04:19:18 <elliptic> _There is a stone staircase leading down here.
04:19:18 <elliptic> _You climb downwards.
04:19:18 <elliptic> There is a stone staircase leading up here.
04:19:18 <elliptic> The staircase is a mimic!
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04:19:19 <galehar> is it?
04:19:24 <elliptic> yes :P
04:19:50 <galehar> and how did you end up on it without discovering it?
04:19:51 <elliptic> found upstairs, went up and down, then it turned into a mimic
04:20:07 <galehar> it was the same stairs?
04:21:55 <elliptic> I think so
04:22:05 <elliptic> I'll try to watch it on footv
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04:25:57 <elliptic> oh, okay, this is what happened
04:26:09 <elliptic> I found an upstairs on v:2 and went up it
04:26:47 <elliptic> I immediately went down the downstairs I arrived at on v:1, and returned to v:2 at a different upstairs... which was a mimic
04:27:11 <elliptic> so a bug, but I didn't actually go up the mimic
04:31:29 <galehar> yeah, I'm fixing
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05:06:45 <elliptic> You climb downwards.
05:06:45 <elliptic> Item buggily placed in feature at (11, 12).
05:06:46 <elliptic> Item buggily placed in feature at (13, 12).
05:06:46 <elliptic> Item buggily placed in feature at (14, 12).
05:06:46 <elliptic> Item buggily placed in feature at (15, 12).
05:06:46 <elliptic> Item buggily placed in feature at (16, 12).
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05:11:56 <elliptic> it looks like a serial glass vault got placed on top of a room of free treasure
05:12:27 <elliptic> there was also a timed bazaar mimic on the level, though it seems unlikely that had anything to do with it
05:12:27 <due> :( goddamn serial vaults.
05:12:30 <due> they're so grainy!
05:13:28 <Zaba> due, grainy?
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05:26:14 <due> Zaba: cereal :D
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05:56:27 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever.
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07:07:42 <galehar> indeed, it doesn't seem to be related to mimics at all
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08:24:12 <Keskitalo> !tell dpeg Nice post in the implementable voting tavern thread; that'd be a nice blog post too!
08:24:13 <Henzell> Keskitalo: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
08:24:24 * Keskitalo uses "nice" way too much.
08:25:52 <Keskitalo> mumra: I see you have ideas for a golem factory/dwarf forge branch/portal; I have some old golem factory ideas as well.. well, I think I have some hand-drawn plans for late portal vault maps, not so much new features or anything.
08:26:32 <Keskitalo> If you come up with a portal vault, I'll contribute some maps.
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08:36:18 <Keskitalo> mumra: Okay, just read further and you have a wiki page already, great!
08:38:08 <Keskitalo> Conveyors, I love the idea! I imagine it'd have a similar gameplay effect like the standing air idea, but quite possibly it'd be more manageable to implement.
08:39:14 <Keskitalo> I like dpeg's proposal to replace Vaults, but also I like the idea to replace a single floor a lot.
08:40:22 <mumra> Keskitalo: yes; did you mention it briefly a few days ago? ... or is there someone else with a factory idea as well?
08:40:42 <Keskitalo> I'd say it was someone else, I don't remember talking about it lately!
08:40:58 <mumra> hmm, there was definitely someone who commented when i mentioned it either here or ##crawl
08:42:27 <mumra> anyway, i started coding the LUA for the portal vault, and sketching out some maps; i think i can implement conveyors with LUA markers as well (although i'm not sure about performance)
08:43:14 <mumra> i think it's a nice way to bring in a dwarven theme, without doing the totally obvious Dwarven Halls / Dwarf Fortress / etc. :)
08:43:16 <Keskitalo> cool
08:43:27 <Keskitalo> Yeah, I didn't think of dwarves myself.
08:44:13 <Keskitalo> _Are you thinking deep dwarves or some other dwarves?
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08:45:22 <mumra> it's quite deep in the dungeon so i think deep dwarves would be appropriate; maybe with a few mountain dwarves mixed in.
08:45:52 <mumra> there are possibly some new backgrounds, e.g. engineer, factory worker, foreman
08:46:12 <ncampion> Good day everyone, wanted to report a small issue im having with the web tiles server where i seem to be completely locked out of my game in progress and not sure what i can do to, at a minimum, start a new game
08:46:51 <ncampion> not sure if this is the appropriate place or not
08:47:48 <mumra> ncampion: you can report it at https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/main_page.php (i've noticed one or two others mentioning a similar problem)
08:48:06 <mumra> Napkin might be able to help unlock your game in the meantime though
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08:50:46 <mumra> Keskitalo: initially i was just going to populate it with the existing dwarf monsters (there were quite a few already added for the dwarven branch) just to see how the theme worked
08:50:57 <mumra> i think they're pretty much all deep dwarves
08:52:20 <ncampion> Napkin: don't know if you would be gracious enough to look at my locked up webtiles game (user gimbal)
08:52:36 <Keskitalo> mumra: Yeah, they haven't been employed anywhere at the moment I think.
08:53:23 <Keskitalo> I do have the idea of using them for late D though: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:branch:vaults#vaults_late_d_monster_set_separation
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08:54:11 <Keskitalo> Not sure if these ideas overlap too badly though!
08:55:00 <mumra> Factory could be special floor(s) of late D instead (perhaps too similar to Nethack...)
08:55:16 <ghallberg> Keskitalo: There are orcs and elves scattered all over D and V, and thye have their own branches. Shouldn't really be a problem.
08:55:43 <Keskitalo> Well, there's complaints of seeing too much elves/orcs everywhere. :)
08:55:49 <ghallberg> Heh
08:55:49 <Napkin> mmh?
08:55:56 <Keskitalo> Hi Napkin!
08:56:01 <Napkin> moin moin :)
08:56:14 <RichardHawk> Each game should guarantee at least one special floor in late D
08:56:21 <RichardHawk> Those are all too rare at the moment
08:56:39 <mumra> Keskitalo: it fits better with my original preference of having Factory as a late D branch/portal; but as dpeg pointed out there are problems with adding new branches
08:56:47 <Keskitalo> You could do an encompassed vault, or even a serial vault for special floors.
08:56:58 <Napkin> let's kill webtiles and blame ncampion :>
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08:57:12 <Keskitalo> Yeah, I agree with adding branches being problematic.
08:57:19 <Keskitalo> Need to cut stuff.
08:57:42 <Keskitalo> Could generate 3-hell Hell sometimes, and add a non-Hell branch. ;)
08:58:03 <mumra> hehe
08:58:33 <MarvinPA> i guess blade could be swapped for a 1-floor branch sometimes
08:58:33 <Henzell> MarvinPA: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them.
08:58:40 <mumra> maybe replace the whole of Hell; you could have 4 different factories making different types of golem / weapon ^^
08:58:58 <MarvinPA> but that might be hard to get right, blade is pretty small
08:59:22 <mumra> MarvinPA: i had another idea about a blade rotation; basically a library with flying books, same size and XP as blade
08:59:30 <Keskitalo> I like the idea of making Blade a portal vault (like the idea is for Hive)
08:59:46 <Keskitalo> mumra: That idea has been floating around too; I think it's a great one
09:00:03 <ncampion> Napkin: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2536
09:00:16 <Napkin> phone, 1s
09:00:25 <Keskitalo> One similar idea was a Dragon's Den, for getting materials for dragon armours.. those are perhaps a little too common to have it be really special though.
09:00:27 <ncampion> Napkin: i guess it looks like that bug so maybe leaving it so they can debug would be best, i don't know.
09:00:29 <ncampion> thx
09:00:36 <mumra> Napkin: i saw someone else with the same issue on ##crawl yesterday i think
09:02:27 <CIA-34> 03edlothiol * r32ddf1d86e0b 10/crawl-ref/source/webserver/static/ (asc.gif client.js desc.gif style.css): Improvements to Webtiles player list sorting.
09:02:29 <mumra> dragon's den would be great; i tend to find dragon hides somewhat rare, at least if you're after a specific one
09:04:28 <Keskitalo> edlothiol: Welcome to the devteam btw, if I didn't say so already earlier! And thanks for all the awesome work on Webtiles!
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09:10:29 <edlothiol> Keskitalo: thanks :)
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09:24:11 <Napkin> ok, back
09:25:42 <Napkin> moin edlothiol
09:25:58 <edlothiol> moin Napkin ;)
09:26:16 <Napkin> kill webtiles klappt nicht mehr ;)
09:26:35 <Napkin> der daemon schafft es nicht, sich schnell genug zu beenden, dann werden schon neue spiele wieder gestartet ;)
09:27:02 <edlothiol> query?
09:44:41 <Napkin> ok, webtiles restarted
09:44:51 <Napkin> apart from that, CDO's hoster is again having network trouble
09:44:58 <Napkin> so.. bear with me, please
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12:36:14 <Napkin> awesome.. a digger cut a optic cable for hetzner data-center. it's running through backup lines, which are much slower. hence the big lag of CDO
12:38:19 <ghallberg> >.<
12:38:36 <ghallberg> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/06/georgian-woman-cuts-web-access
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12:54:53 <Napkin> is hayenne in here?
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13:10:06 <ghallberg> Probably. Armenia is a big country.
13:10:22 <ghallberg> But nah, the digger thing just made me recall that story.
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13:19:34 <vintermnn> I was dropping in on the crawl forums again lately, and I found to my delight that Ryak had implemented something like my food proposal!
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13:21:18 <vintermnn> has it got a branch in Git yet? I admit, I don't know much about Git, so I'm not entirely sure how to get that branch if it exists
13:22:17 <MarvinPA> i don't think so, looks like galehar started to look into it but didn't push it yet
13:22:47 <elliptic> what food proposal is this?
13:22:55 <MarvinPA> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4226
13:23:12 <vintermnn> beat me to it :)
13:23:32 <MarvinPA> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:eating#ryak_s_implementation has the details of what's in the patch i believe
13:25:47 <elliptic> looks complicated
13:26:14 <SquashMonster> the writeup's missing that dirty chunks are -1 (apparently, from the table)
13:26:41 <vintermnn> hmm, downloaded the patch, but it won't apply
13:27:09 <vintermnn> at least not with "git apply" to what I think is head
13:27:23 <elliptic> I really don't understand why the many different from/until restrictions is a good idea
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13:28:20 <vintermnn> my main concern with the patch was really to get rid of sickness as annoyance, and replace it with something more meaningful
13:28:30 <MarvinPA> i sort of like the until full/very full restrictions on lower levels of carnivore
13:28:35 <vintermnn> and to make the different levels of carnivore/herbivore more interesting
13:29:00 <vintermnn> but I wrote at length about it on the proposal page :)
13:29:10 <MarvinPA> not sure about the lower limits though, especially having to be very hungry to eat contaminated chunks might be annoying
13:29:12 <SquashMonster> when I read the original proposal, it got me to try eating brown meat as easily as I'd eat white - completely stopped my need to eat permafood at all
13:29:37 <elliptic> with this proposal, you'll very often get into situations where eating is noncommutative... currently eating is only noncommutative for chunks vs permafood
13:30:08 <vintermnn> commutative? Eat (a + b) + c = a + (b + c)? huh?
13:30:23 <elliptic> that's associativity
13:30:34 <vintermnn> duh, sorry :)
13:30:38 <SquashMonster> oh, you mean like if you're at Very Hungry and have a contaminated and non-contaminated chunk, it's better to eat contaminated?
13:30:43 <elliptic> by noncommutative, I mean that there are many situations where you can eat food a and then food b but not in the other order
13:31:25 <elliptic> squashmonster: or if you are a herbivore then you should eat meat rations before bread rations
13:31:27 <vintermnn> that's true
13:31:53 <vintermnn> if you want to stuff up, yeah
13:32:12 <SquashMonster> the auto-eat suggest could pick out the worst food
13:32:17 <elliptic> I'm not actually sure how this will play... with an appropriate interface (sorting food by current "quality") it could be fine
13:32:25 <SquashMonster> like how it tries to get you to eat the oldest chunk now
13:32:30 <elliptic> squashmonster: but you might well not want to eat the dirty chunk
13:32:48 <SquashMonster> why's that?  I was under the impression this got rid of sick from chunks
13:32:51 <vintermnn> Squashmonster: That would be bad if it made you eat things that could make you sick
13:32:53 <elliptic> oh, it does?
13:33:00 <SquashMonster> apparently not
13:33:02 <SquashMonster> haha
13:33:05 <vintermnn> but I argued that there should be no food with a _chance_ of sickness
13:33:14 <vintermnn> only 100% certain or never
13:33:43 <elliptic> vintermnn: well, currently dirty chunks give no nutrition if they make you sick... would you change that, too?
13:33:50 <vintermnn> yeah
13:34:22 <vintermnn> that's the point, to make it a tradeoff. Desperation food: you always get sick, but you get some nutrition
13:34:38 <vintermnn> rather than the roulette you get today
13:34:47 <SquashMonster> sick isn't really that bad when you're somewhere you can rest
13:34:54 <elliptic> well, all of crawl is a roulette if you call that a roulette :P
13:35:18 <SquashMonster> it'd be nasty if you couldn't eat while sick
13:35:30 <vintermnn> nutrition from desperation food was suggested to be 1/3, enough that you shouldn't benefit nutritionally if you rest away the sickness
13:35:45 <SquashMonster> ah, I see
13:36:57 <vintermnn> elliptic: The eurogamer in me prefers a guaranteed benefit and a guaranteed cost rather than a die roll ;)
13:37:21 <ghallberg> vintermnn: :D
13:37:29 <ghallberg> eurogames <3
13:38:25 <elliptic> I'm not really sure who will ever eat such chunks then
13:38:37 <elliptic> if you can only eat them at very hungry and they sicken you...
13:38:40 <vintermnn> ghallberg: Although crawl is generally long, often unpredictable, and has a sleazy fantasy theme, I love it :)
13:38:46 <elliptic> and only give a tiny bit of nutrition...
13:39:27 <vintermnn> elliptic: ... then you really don't do it just to avoid dipping into permafood. Hopefully.
13:39:54 <ghallberg> vintermnn: The large amount of random rolls makes it fair. Plus the fact that you aren't competing against other players.
13:39:56 <elliptic> yes, but how is it any more interesting if nobody ever eats the chunks than if everyone does?
13:39:58 <ghallberg> Imo.
13:41:48 <vintermnn> elliptic: you will dip into the desperation food chunks (which for most people will be rotted white chunks) very rarely, but when you do, it will be an interesting experience, I hope
13:43:00 <vintermnn> anyway, I'm sure it needs tweaking,
13:43:01 <elliptic> I thought we were talking about dirty chunks
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13:43:18 <vintermnn> which is why I want to apply that patch and start trying it out
13:43:21 <elliptic> it does look interesting, and we should try it out :)
13:43:24 <elliptic> yes :)
13:44:04 <vintermnn> it may be dirty chunks in the patch, I hope not, but it wasn't so in my original proposal
13:44:07 <elliptic> my reaction to seeing it though is that it would be better to have fewer different satiation breakpoints
13:44:27 <vintermnn> anyway, I can help with the tweaking myself if it is in a functional patch
13:45:18 <vintermnn> I had pseudocode (actually working C code) for how I wanted it all to work, but I didn't manage to merge it into food.cc at the time
13:45:47 <elliptic> ah, I see, when you were talking about desperation food you meant stuff that you need to be nearly starving to eat
13:45:53 <vintermnn> yeah commutativity may become an issue
13:46:02 <elliptic> I was thinking about the very hungry stuff
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13:59:58 <dpeg> food reform discussion, here I come
13:59:58 <Henzell> dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
14:00:28 <dpeg> !tell keskitalo Many thanks! Do you think you'll have time to assess the rolling boulder patches?
14:00:28 <Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let keskitalo know.
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14:01:16 <vintermnn> rolling boulder patches sounds totally awesome! Ogre bowler :)
14:01:25 <dpeg> <3
14:01:37 <dpeg> Special background you unlock after an Ogre win!
14:01:49 <dpeg> elliptic: one basic idea is to make gourmand/carnivore continuous, I think this will help a lot. Another point is that many corpses produce way to many chunks. We should halve the number right away, if it were not for certain spells.
14:01:50 <Zannick> oh god unlockables
14:02:30 <dpeg> elliptic: Finally, currently there are so many nobrainers in chunk food; vintermnn's food reform changes this.
14:02:34 <vintermnn> haha, the mood hasn't changed in favor of unlockables yet, I presume? :) No matter, I can live without them!
14:02:35 <dpeg> vintermnn: Hi! Nice to see you here.
14:02:58 <dpeg> Just one negative reaction. I'd treat that as full support for unlockables.
14:03:20 <elliptic> dpeg: I'm not actually sure how many nobrainers it removes
14:03:31 <elliptic> it adds a lot of complexity though
14:03:37 <vintermnn> nice to see you too! I'm currently trying to apply the food reform patch, but I run into trouble, I don't know too much about git
14:04:03 <dpeg> no, I think it'll be natural in actual play. The rules sound complicated, but they will be easy enough for the player (who does not have to be aware of them).
14:04:19 <dpeg> elliptic: at least it tries to remove the no-brainers -- the only way to proceed, imo.
14:04:24 <ghallberg> Is this the same as was posted on the wiki?
14:04:28 <elliptic> which no-brainers are we talking about here
14:04:47 <vintermnn> elliptic made a good point about commutativity, dpeg
14:04:58 <dpeg> ghallberg: there is vintermann's original proposal, and ryak's actual patch. There are some differences, I made a table for comparison on the wiki.
14:05:12 <vintermnn> I hadn't thought much about it, but there will be far more situations where you want to eat a then b but not vice versa
14:05:34 <vintermnn> dpeg: and your proposal, it's not entirely identical to mine
14:05:42 <dpeg> true
14:05:47 <vintermnn> in particular, I feel it's important to get rid of that 20% sickness chance
14:05:59 <dpeg> elliptic: always eat brown chunks first; their sickness is pure tedium, not relevant; never eat green chunks unless rP in which case you always eat them; stuff to Engorged all the time if carnivore
14:06:00 <elliptic> or even where you can eat a then b but not b then a
14:07:01 <vintermnn> yeah, you don't want to eat b then a, because then you don't get to eat a right away :=
14:07:01 <vintermnn> :)
14:07:23 <SquashMonster> is/has someone making/made green chunks edible without rP?
14:07:28 <elliptic> dpeg: uh, you mean eat brown chunks last I think ;) as I said earlier, not eating them at all isn't really an improvement, so we don't want to nerf them too much
14:07:29 <dpeg> I am not sure non-commutatitivity will cause problems. Players will learn intuitively that their food range becomes larger the hungrier they are.
14:08:06 <SquashMonster> presuming you keep the current "you're not quite hungry enough to eat that!" message it should be intuitive enough
14:08:09 <dpeg> elliptic: I also want to cut chunk generation in general (as does vintermnn's proposal)
14:08:11 <vintermnn> dpeg: and default can be to eat the worst food that won't make you sick
14:08:16 <dpeg> vintermnn: yes
14:08:47 <dpeg> elliptic: I agree the proposal looks threatening but I think we should really give it a try -- unless you can come up with a simpler suggestion.
14:09:00 <elliptic> dpeg: about green chunks, I didn't manage to locate anything about that on the page...
14:09:09 <dpeg> And I also think it will be inuitive for the player, especially with a little interface help.
14:09:49 <vintermnn> elliptic: I want poisonous and mutagenic chunks to give their nasty effect, but also some nutrition so they can be used as desperation food
14:10:04 <ghallberg> green chunk 	 poison, 1/2 nutrition 	 unless rPois  magenta chunk 	 mutation, 1/3 nutrition
14:10:16 <elliptic> dpeg: and about carnivore, it will still be a no-brainer to stuff up to whatever your cap is, no?
14:10:33 <dpeg> elliptic: green chunk poison, 1/2 nutrition unless rPois
14:10:41 <elliptic> vintermnn: that sounds good, yes (and is independent of everything else here)
14:10:54 <vintermnn> in the same sense that it is a no-brainer to eat to satiated
14:10:56 <dpeg> ghallberg: damn :)
14:11:00 <ghallberg> heh
14:11:07 <ghallberg> My paste looked kinda wierd though :P
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14:11:30 <elliptic> dpeg: worth a try, sure... I'm just expressing some skepticism and suggesting cutting back on the number of satiation breakpoints that are used
14:11:34 <dpeg> elliptic: it'll make the mutation more natural, using its three levels, for example
14:12:15 <dpeg> elliptic: well, we had the proposal and the implementable.... saying this now when a patch is in is a bit unfair to the patcher
14:12:37 <elliptic> well, the patch is quite different from the proposal ;)
14:12:57 <dpeg> elliptic: it is a simplified version, you should like that
14:13:00 <elliptic> yes
14:13:00 <vintermnn> but can anyone git-skilled give me some hints as to how to apply this patch? I get error: patch failed: crawl-ref/source/food.cc:1675
14:13:01 <vintermnn> error: crawl-ref/source/food.cc: patch does not apply
14:13:40 <vintermnn> really we need a proper branch to try this out systematically
14:14:33 <dpeg> vintermnn: sorry, cannot help
14:18:12 <dpeg> vintermnn: Will you be around more often? I'd really like you to talk about "skald" with galehar, calmly and educated, of course.
14:18:25 <vintermnn> dpeg: haha
14:18:33 <vintermnn> I don't know actually
14:19:16 <vintermnn> I am in the process of making some touch choices about which projects to work on in the immediate future :)
14:19:41 <vintermnn> But it's very inspiring to see an idea I just threw out get so far
14:19:52 <vintermnn> not many OS projects that will happen for
14:20:58 <ghallberg> dpeg: I'm not gonna be able to do much on crawl in the first half of this semester I think.
14:21:35 <ghallberg> Though I'll try to pop in and do a small implementable now and then.
14:21:36 <dpeg> ghallberg: did you have any pet ideas you wanted to touch?
14:21:47 <dpeg> ghallberg: thank you
14:22:09 <ghallberg> dpeg: Nothing in particular, except maybe for the identification stuff I talked about.
14:22:11 <dpeg> vintermnn: Crawl will be around for years, you can always come back. We'll be patiently sweating over 0.27 or whatever :)
14:23:09 <elliptic> IMO 0.27 would be a good time to change to 1.0 instead
14:23:10 <ghallberg> But that would require quite a bit of work.
14:23:13 <elliptic> we could use base 27!
14:23:48 <Zannick> change 0.10 to be 0.A ?
14:24:58 <elliptic> no, continue with 0.10, 0.11, ... , 0.26, and then 1.0
14:25:54 <Zannick> that's not quite base 27 :P
14:26:07 <Zannick> (what happens after version 26.0?) :P
14:26:41 <ghallberg> 1.0.0
14:26:42 <elliptic> 26.1
14:26:46 <vintermnn> bah, I just went ahead and force merged the parts of the patch that would merge, I'll see what error messages it spits out if any
14:26:55 <Zannick> i suppose that point is so far in the future.
14:27:01 <vintermnn> s/merged/applied
14:28:36 <dpeg> not worth discussing numbering... it'll be 0.10
14:28:54 <ghallberg> We're gonna end up like Linus.
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14:29:20 <ghallberg> When we get to 0.2876 someones gonna be like "RIDICULOUS!" and make it 1.0
14:33:53 <Chousuke> you could also go the Chrome route and just release Crawl 10 next
14:35:03 <Zannick> go the java route and call it Crawl 2 version 4.0 for crawl 1.4
14:36:48 <cbus> napkin, yout here?
14:36:55 <Napkin> sure
14:36:57 <Napkin> hi cbus
14:37:03 <SquashMonster> or the Ubuntu route and pick random animal names so nobody knows what version you're on
14:37:08 <cbus> napkin, sup with lag? :)
14:37:16 <Zannick> monster names :)
14:37:25 <SquashMonster> Crawl - Yowling Yacktaur
14:37:27 <Napkin> digger & fibre-optic cables - a neverending story ;)
14:37:35 <Zannick> Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup - Malarious Mermaid
14:37:39 <Napkin> backup lines being used for CDO's datacenter
14:37:58 <SquashMonster> DCSS - Smiling Sigmund
14:38:06 <SquashMonster> (I'm not playing that version.)
14:38:59 <Zannick> Boisterous Boris
14:39:22 <Zannick> Zany Ziggurat
14:39:25 <ghallberg> Menacing Mennas.
14:39:26 <ghallberg> Fucker.
14:42:43 <Chousuke> and then the last one: Cantankerous Xom
14:44:22 <ghallberg> Xenophobix Xom
14:44:30 <vintermnn> I got the food patch to apply, merely added the rejected bits manually
14:44:34 <Zannick> Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup: Slave to Xom Chapter II: Dwarven Fortress
14:44:43 <vintermnn> my HO can only eat brown chunks on very hungry now
14:44:51 <ghallberg> Zannick: off Doom
14:45:00 <ghallberg> -f
14:45:16 <Zannick> i think the new branch is just "Dwarven Fortress"
14:46:05 <elliptic> vintermnn: it sounds from the description of the patch that maybe it isn't handling saprovore at all? (HO has saprovore but not carnivore)
14:46:41 <dpeg> vintermnn: can you upload a working patch to Mantis? Makes it easier for galehar.
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14:49:21 <vintermnn> dpeg: A moment, just so you all don't get beat poets
14:50:14 <dpeg> vintermnn: you made beart poets? Tsktsk
14:50:25 <elliptic> beat poets? should I ask?
14:50:42 <Darin> k
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14:56:26 <vintermnn> elliptic: I just renamed Skalds since I thought it was a daft name :)
14:56:50 <Zannick> hahaha
14:56:50 <dpeg> vintermnn: serious proposals or nothing happens
14:56:56 <vintermnn> but I botched it too, it's still NaSk etc. in the morgue file
14:57:41 <vintermnn> it was a joke, dpeg. I'll let you all decide on names, but I reserve the right to laugh at them and modify my local copy :)
14:58:07 <dpeg> vintermnn: I thought you actually had proposals, this is why I asked whether you'd talk to galehar.
14:58:55 <elliptic> preferably proposals that can be abbreviated Sk
14:59:17 <dpeg> a pretty tough boundary condition
14:59:43 <elliptic> indeed
14:59:45 <vintermnn> dpeg: I'll think about it. Anyway, it seems like git's patch command by default works on the latest commit only, which makes the beat poets safe for now
14:59:50 <ghallberg> vintermnn: What's wrong with skalds? :(
15:00:39 <vintermnn> ghallberg: Skalds were court poets, it doesn't sound good in my language
15:00:45 <ghallberg> Mmk
15:00:54 <ghallberg> What's your language?
15:01:01 <vintermnn> Norwegian
15:01:23 <ghallberg> I'm not that knowledgable in the exact nature of medieval poets/singers :)
15:01:27 <ghallberg> Swedish here.
15:03:14 <vintermnn> I keep picturing a naga version of Gunnlaug Ormstunga which we read in high school, it's just too silly
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15:04:35 <SquashMonster> beat poet makes sense.  They're poets, they beat things.
15:04:50 <Mu_> oh so is a skald like a bard
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15:06:41 <dpeg> Hi!
15:06:53 <galehar> hi
15:09:43 <vintermnn> OK, now the patch updated against the current head is uploaded to Mantis
15:09:47 <dpeg> galehar: I have a little time to discuss constriction, if you like.
15:09:54 <dpeg> vintermnn: awesome
15:10:05 <dpeg> galehar: vintermnn made ryak's food patch up to date.
15:10:07 <vintermnn> First time I did something like this, so crossing fingers that it works
15:10:15 <vintermnn> Or so I hope
15:10:25 <galehar> cool
15:10:28 <vintermnn> I just fixed the conflicts
15:10:37 <galehar> I just started looking at ryak's patch today
15:10:50 <vintermnn> I can has branch?
15:10:56 <galehar> needs a lot of cleaning up I'd say
15:11:14 <galehar> a branch? For food reform?
15:11:24 <vintermnn> yes?
15:11:44 <vintermnn> Ryak's patch is a starting point, no?
15:11:45 <galehar> I'll clean up the code and push it in master :P
15:12:07 <galehar> or do you want to work on it?
15:12:17 <vintermnn> galehar: no no
15:12:41 <galehar> dpeg: yes for talking about constriction btw
15:14:14 <dpeg> galehar: the biggest issue, imo, is constriction-less attacking
15:15:15 <galehar> vintermnn: can you make a patch out of your code? I mean your version.
15:15:27 <galehar> doesn't matter if it doesn't apply, I'll sort it out
15:15:29 <dpeg> galehar: if you think that Ctrl-dir is good enough, we can start talking about numbers :)
15:15:43 <vintermnn> galehar: I did, and uploaded it to the proposal at mantis
15:15:56 <vintermnn> but I see now that I forgot to include Ryak's followup patch :-|
15:16:04 <vintermnn> ah well, that was only a couple of lines
15:16:25 <galehar> about a branch, the simplest way is to create a personal clone. and we can pull from it.
15:16:55 <galehar> i thought you just uploaded some fixes to ryak's version
15:17:31 <galehar> I'd be interested in seeing what you have worked out but haven't been able to integrate into food.cc
15:17:35 <vintermnn> galehar: no, I only made it compatible with the latest version. There were some changes, such as the renaming of _HCL to _ROT
15:18:06 <vintermnn> galehar: It's practically just pseudocode
15:18:06 <vintermnn> but sure
15:18:14 <galehar> dpeg: any attack is an automatic constriction unless ctrl+dir?
15:19:03 <galehar> vintermnn: upload it anyway, I'll see if I can work something out of it
15:19:10 <dpeg> galehar: yes
15:19:25 <galehar> and you can attack the monster you are constricting?
15:19:33 <dpeg> yes, of course
15:19:48 <galehar> so most of the time, you'd want to do it
15:19:59 <galehar> so I guess this interface can work
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15:20:11 <dpeg> galehar: you'll almost alywas want the constriction bonus. The only exceptions I can think of acidic monsters (we could simply rule that the constriction does not cause acid damage) and monsters you are happy to let flee
15:20:48 <dpeg> perhaps there aer cases when you're happy to let a blinker blink? More often not, I'd think
15:21:11 <galehar> I suppose there's a size limit. Can you constrict ogres?
15:22:09 <dpeg> ah, good point
15:22:27 <galehar> about translocation, bringing the constricting monster with you is likely to be problematic. That's why  I think no blinking is better (but teleportation possible)
15:22:46 <dpeg> galehar: no teleporting along with the monster? :*(
15:23:28 <galehar> Teleporting with a kraken is going to be insane
15:24:12 <dpeg> true, but nagas and tentacled monstrosities would work
15:24:25 <dpeg> can simply rule that the kraken is too heavy to teleport with you
15:24:49 <galehar> about monster constriction, I had an idea. How about you can choose between attacking the monster or trying to escape?
15:25:12 <dpeg> galehar: you can! Attack or move somewhere else.
15:25:21 <galehar> maybe. We can give it a try and if it's too hard to code or to unstable, then we'll revert to no tele with monster
15:25:42 <dpeg> yes
15:25:58 <galehar> that's good. You probably want to attack the kraken tentacle but escape from tougher monsters.
15:27:01 <galehar> so that mean that the monster you are constricting can still attack you, right?
15:27:02 <dpeg> Our choice how easy we want to make it to escape from constriction via move (this is one of the parameters in mentioned in the mail)
15:27:09 <dpeg> sure
15:27:19 <galehar> any penalty to attack when constricted?
15:27:28 <dpeg> galehar: think of a large snake constriction you... it is painful and will damage you, but you can still attack
15:27:46 <galehar> maybe a to hit penalty
15:27:47 <dpeg> galehar: not sure... damage over time and not being able to freely move are more obvious to the player
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15:28:28 <galehar> at least an evasion penalty
15:30:21 <dpeg> yes, that is also goo
15:30:23 <dpeg> d
15:31:27 <galehar> but when you initiate constriction, do you also attack with your weapon in the same turn?
15:31:44 <dpeg> yes, it is a bonus effect
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15:32:06 <dpeg> (interface should be as easy as possible -- we can make the effect smaller if we want)
15:32:42 <galehar> alright, that seems good to me
15:32:51 <dpeg> If you want to, you could consider constriction a "weapon move"
15:33:08 <dpeg> passive upon melee attacks, almost always beneficial
15:33:15 <dpeg> should affect tactics at times
15:33:47 <vintermnn> galehar: I uploaded nutri.c to the ticket,
15:33:55 <Eronarn> mmmm constriction
15:34:22 <vintermnn> it should at least show that the two-tier system I propose isn't that complicated :)
15:34:51 <Eronarn> dpeg: i don't think that teleporting should bring constrictors with you - on the other hand, it would be cool to have a monster which constricts you and then teleports
15:35:05 <galehar> vintermnn: thanks, will look into it!
15:35:15 <vintermnn> Eronarn: sounds like a job for Guardian Nagas
15:35:18 <Eronarn> suddenly disappearing in a cloud of smoke, vs. actively grabbing something and bringing it for a ride
15:35:44 <dpeg> Eronarn: teleportation is an all-purpose solution, having the monster cling to you sounds very good to me
15:36:32 <Eronarn> dpeg: it lets you separate clinging monsters from non-clinging ones easily, and kill them piecemeal :)
15:36:33 <galehar> dpeg: I think we've sorted out the basics. Can you put it on the wiki with numbers if you can work some?
15:36:59 <dpeg> galehar: yes, but it may take a bit
15:38:39 <galehar> it's alright, I'm not implementing this anytime soon (and maybe somebody else will)
15:39:48 <dpeg> I can think a bit about numbers and put something on a wiki over the second-next (sp?) weekend
15:40:01 <Eronarn> wrt penalties, i think it makes sense to separate movement and action penalties
15:40:12 <Eronarn> nets give both, a naga entangling you might only give movement penalties
15:40:19 <Eronarn> because it's only wrapped around your legs
15:42:00 <dpeg> Eronarn: that's the proposal: constricted, you can attack freely, but not move freely and not blink. galehar suggested attack penalties (e.g. to-hit) but this will be opaque. An EV loss would be good, though.
15:42:14 <galehar> or maybe it's around your chest. If you can't move, I think an EV penalty is appropriate
15:43:01 <dpeg> galehar: a kraken could probably constrict you wholesome. Need to abstract a little :)
15:43:17 <Eronarn> galehar: yes, evasive movement is definitely movement (whereas magical movement - blinking, abyssing, etc. - isn't)
15:44:05 <Eronarn> dpeg: two separate status effects: Held (cannot move freely), Bound (or Grappled, Caught, etc. - cannot act freely)
15:44:32 <galehar> Eronarn: constrict also does damage
15:44:34 <Eronarn> 'Your feet are rooted to the ground' vs. 'Your arms are pinned to your torso'
15:45:31 <dpeg> I'll just come up with numbers for constriction. If we later want hugs, crushing etc. that is fine, but one step after the other.
15:45:35 <Eronarn> galehar: i think only some kinds should. for example, a sticky monster
15:46:27 <galehar> I don't think we want to be able to escape constriction with blink. It's too easy. So either no blinking, or blink with the monster.
15:46:49 <dpeg> building up damage creates some tension (especially if you cannot blink) and is also what we want to players constricting monsters
15:46:56 <Galefury> tie it to size?
15:47:00 <dpeg> galehar: yes
15:47:08 <Galefury> blink with the monster if it's smaller or same size, no blinking if its bigger?
15:47:14 <Eronarn> galehar: how is that any different from escaping being surrounded by monsters, or escaping being in a cloud, or escaping being next to a tough monster
15:47:38 <dpeg> constrictors would be "no blinking here" monsters, that's good
15:48:02 <Eronarn> Galefury: that could make sense, yeah... doesn't feel right at all for you to drag a humongous tentacled monstrosity with you when you blink, but a tiny leech is fine
15:48:16 <Galefury> i was mostly thinking about krakens
15:48:23 <Galefury> but im not sure what size the tentacles are
15:48:31 <Eronarn> krakens are huuuuge right now
15:49:36 <Eronarn> i think i'd make the rule 'smaller' rather than 'smaller or same size' though. and then nagas are large, because they have a huge snake body
15:49:39 <galehar> Eronarn: yeah, blinking lets you escape from all sort of things. How about we add a feature that's not trivialised by it?
15:49:47 <galehar> Galefury: good idea
15:50:17 <dpeg> I think boas can constrict pretty large animals.
15:50:21 <Eronarn> galehar: if blink trivializes too many things then we should change blink, not just make new features try to be anti-blink
15:50:36 <galehar> yeah, whatever
15:50:43 <dpeg> no, whatever
15:50:54 <Zannick> maybe, whatever
15:50:57 <Eronarn> for example, did the blink range based on power ever happen?
15:51:20 <dpeg> At this time and place, we are doing constriction.
15:51:48 <galehar> dpeg: sure, we can have some monsters which have a different size rule
15:51:55 <dpeg> absolutely
15:52:01 <galehar> Eronarn: where's your patch?
15:52:36 <dpeg> Blinking will always be in the game in some form, having monsters deny it is good and interesting, just like monsters denying casting, escaping, summoning etc.
15:52:56 <Eronarn> galehar: i already submitted a patch this year, tyvm
15:53:08 <dpeg> This is completely unrelated to further nerfs to blinking (there is an implementable on cTele nerfs, btw).
15:53:33 <Eronarn> dpeg: having monsters deny it is fine, i just don't think constriction is a good vehicle for this - except in the case of small monsters being brought along for a ride (because this is quite believable and thematic)
15:54:10 <dpeg> "The boa clutches on you while you note the power of the scroll/spell to be insufficient."
15:54:45 <dpeg> A blink is a magical jump, something keeping you in place with great force, hence no jump.
15:55:00 <Eronarn> that doesn't make any sense
15:55:15 <Galefury> i imagine it like this
15:55:20 <Galefury> blink brings anything connected to you with you
15:55:35 <Galefury> like your inventory and the armor you are wearing, and anything that is closely attached to you by constriction
15:55:37 <dpeg> Eronarn: naturally it does not, being an inferior idea by someone else
15:55:39 <Eronarn> Galefury: except it doesn't, because clouds/nets/etc.
15:55:46 <vintermnn> Eronarn: What was your blink power range patch like?
15:55:48 <Galefury> if the constricting thing is small it coes with you
15:55:55 <Galefury> if its big you cant blink
15:55:59 <Eronarn> vintermnn: i didn't make one, nor did i even do the original proposal for it
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15:56:12 <Galefury> clouds are not closely connected, and nets blinking with the player sounds pretty good to me
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15:56:36 <vintermnn> I like the idea of blink doing a random walk from your starting position, with the number of steps determined by power
15:56:44 <elliptic> yes, nets blinking with the player sounds reasonable
15:56:51 <dpeg> yes
15:57:02 <Eronarn> yeah, that would be fine
15:57:15 <Eronarn> krakens preventing blink still doesn't make sense though
15:57:18 <Zannick> vintermnn: that's a neat idea
15:57:46 <Eronarn> (though a monster that gives you -TELE while you're constricted would be cool!)
15:57:54 <dpeg> Eronarn: everything is magical, can you please substitute "does not make sense" with something a little more flexible?
15:58:39 <Zannick> i'm not sure why a skilled mage can't limit the blink to be only themselves and not a monster constricting them
15:58:43 <Zannick> blink and/or tele
15:59:20 <Eronarn> Zannick: i think it works for noticeably smaller monsters that are biting/tentacle-ing you, for them to be treated like your inventory more than a hostile entity
15:59:33 <dpeg> Zannick: since we're comparing a spell(caster)'s power with the physical power of something, all kinds of answers are possible.
15:59:48 <Galefury> a skilled mage cant even blink in a certain direction without further magic assistance
15:59:58 <Eronarn> why are we doing that when we don't do it anywhere else? for example, you can blink across deep water even if you can't fly
16:00:04 <Galefury> ctele letting you get out of constriction would make sense imo, but would complicate things even further
16:00:06 <Eronarn> and you certainly can't swim across it
16:00:14 <dpeg> to me, a blink is a magically enchanced jump
16:00:15 <dpeg> what
16:00:22 <dpeg> is the problem with jumping over water?
16:01:25 <Eronarn> the problem is that your justification for blink being preventable by hugs is an appeal to magical physics, except ones that we don't even try to look at anywhere else in the game
16:02:26 <Galefury> im pretty sure dpeg's justification is that introducing some monsters that prevent blinking away from them would make for some interesting gameplay
16:02:28 <dpeg> you cannot blink through monsters?
16:02:54 <Eronarn> you can blink through monsters, and through statues, and through plants (i forget if glass walls / trees)
16:02:56 <dpeg> Galefury: I said this, yes, and I also think it'd be in check with the in-game world
16:02:58 <Zannick> Eronarn: i think blinking with a biting monster is okay, because part of them is underneath the surface of what you want to blink (unless you're okay losing a chunk of skin or a limb). but just constricting/holding?
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16:03:19 <Eronarn> Zannick: imagine a facehugger from alien, i guess? :)
16:03:33 <Eronarn> seems appropriate for it to not flop onto the ground
16:03:35 <UbAh> stopped in to say congrats on the canvas trick
16:03:39 <Zannick> that still goes with my point
16:03:54 <dpeg> okay, I got the monsters wrong
16:04:03 <Eronarn> i guess i might actually use a body area thing, here
16:04:04 <UbAh> with that I think crawl might just get very popular on some fronts that you dont usually expect
16:04:05 <dpeg> it is still a jump for me
16:04:16 <dpeg> UbAh: please explan
16:04:17 <Eronarn> is most of the other monster sticking to you, or is it just using an arm or something?
16:04:20 <UbAh> webtiles
16:04:26 <galehar> You cannot translocate out of something that's holding you. You either do it with it or you don't do it at all. Period. That's simple and doesn't need any further explanation.
16:04:44 <UbAh> your using canvas right
16:04:46 <Zannick> i mean, if all the monster is external to you, why can you not teleport without it?
16:04:57 <dpeg> yes, and we can freely choose (guided by gameplay considerations) if we want blink to be stronger or teleport etc.
16:05:07 <Zannick> that's just my opinion
16:05:18 <Eronarn> galehar: except it's inconsistent with how blink works everywhere else there might be restrictions on your movement
16:05:34 <MarvinPA> isn't that just "nets"?
16:05:39 <MarvinPA> which could easily also blink with you
16:05:41 <galehar> you mean net? We change it. Nets come with you, problem solved.
16:05:43 <MarvinPA> oh and webs now
16:05:44 <Galefury> nets and webs now
16:05:48 <Eronarn> MarvinPA: water, clouds, being surrounded with monsters, not being able to walk past statues, etc.
16:05:59 <Galefury> you cant blink out of water :P
16:06:00 <galehar> you can't blink out of a web. Problem solved.
16:06:06 <MarvinPA> well none of those are physically holding you
16:06:10 <galehar> water isn't holding you
16:06:12 <Galefury> or well, you can if youre a merfolk
16:06:14 <dpeg> gameplay > interface > realism
16:06:15 <MarvinPA> nets, webs and constrictors all are doing
16:06:16 <Zannick> like selecting the field of the blinking material to be only everything within the most external layer of you
16:06:23 <Zannick> and your equipment, etc.
16:07:22 <Eronarn> oh so you can't blink out of webs impeding your movement, but you can blink out of waist deep water impeding your movement, but you can't if the water is actually a water elemental constricting you
16:07:32 <Zannick> eg, if you're standing in water and you teleport/blink, do you bring some water with you?
16:07:35 <Eronarn> got it. thanks for this Intuitive, No Explanation Needed Gameplay Mechanic
16:07:53 <Zannick> or only the water that got into your boots?
16:08:57 <UbAh> I do have one complaint about the new skills though:  you can no longer prevent an unwanted elemental skill from popping first
16:09:15 <galehar> how is that new?
16:09:17 <dpeg> Nagas, kraken, tentacled monstrosities are all very heavy. You don't blink (or teleport, our choice) with one of those clinging to you. It is their force against your force, and their force could be a lot more than water or a web holding you back.
16:09:21 <Zannick> you couldn't do that before, either, i believe
16:09:59 <galehar> and yes you can prevent it. Just don't cast any spell from the school you don't want to learn.
16:10:03 <UbAh> galehar: before I could wait to cast my fire based spells when I had 0 pool
16:10:14 <elliptic> you still couldn't kill anything with them
16:10:30 <UbAh> so for a transmuter I always get fire before ice based on the spellbook
16:10:37 <galehar> yeah well, that wasn't a very interesting strategy
16:10:41 <elliptic> yes
16:10:47 <galehar> and gaining the first level with anti-training is still very cheap
16:11:08 <UbAh> granted
16:11:16 <UbAh> overall I really like it though
16:11:41 <UbAh> cuts back a lot of the tediousness that was there
16:11:41 <galehar> any tactic which relied on checking your XP pool is good riddance
16:11:56 <UbAh> so much that I didn't notice it till it was gone
16:12:03 <Eronarn> dpeg: it's great that you can come up with explanations like this but they're not convincing at all fyi. 'blink doesn't work if you are being hugged' isn't intuitive at all, and it will get players killed because they will expect magical teleportation to work like it does everywhere else in the game (only being stopped by solid walls and magical forces)
16:12:15 <UbAh> going back would be painful I think, like going back to dial up
16:12:38 <galehar> what? A new feature is going to kill players?
16:13:01 <dpeg> I don't care you what you have to say on the matter, Eronarn. I see the potential for interesting tactical choices and this is what the game is about. Pseudorealism and scientific magic are not my concern. I want an interesting game.
16:13:04 <Zannick> that never happened before!
16:13:30 <galehar> btw, I think we need an early game constrictor. So we can explain constriction in hint mode.
16:13:46 <galehar> and its consequence on translocation :P
16:13:47 <dpeg> galehar: yes, a harmless one (easy to get away from)
16:14:38 <Eronarn> i don't care about people who die to constriction; i care about people who die to constriction because they try something that seems like a reasonable escape mechanism and it does nothing because a dev decided that blink is too powerful
16:14:40 <UbAh> like a plant
16:14:48 <UbAh> trip vine something like that
16:14:49 <MarvinPA> it can also just abort with no cost, as most spells do now in situations where they'll always fail
16:15:10 <dpeg> MarvinPA: yes,  I don't want to hurt players with the interface, of course.
16:15:41 <galehar> of course
16:15:46 <Zannick> trip vine sounds like a constriction trap
16:15:48 <galehar> I thought that was obvious
16:16:00 <Eronarn> giant sundew!
16:16:16 <Eronarn> or we could add sloths :)
16:16:21 <Eronarn> The sloth hugs you.
16:17:00 <vintermnn> Agree with Eronarn on the surprise element of finding blinking away from constrictors don't work
16:17:11 <UbAh> drop bears in a nod to our aussie friends
16:19:32 <UbAh> or the dreaded clingy ex
16:20:10 <CIA-34> 03elliptic * r75d891585eb1 10/crawl-ref/source/chardump.cc: Sort spell usage list by total casts.
16:20:21 <vintermnn> good night, I'll be back to check in on food reform
16:20:46 <vintermnn> some time in the coming days
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16:24:54 <UbAh> any plans to ad the other UI functionality of tiles to the webtiles?
16:27:14 <dpeg> UbAh: all of them, I think. Just needs time and effort.
16:27:22 <dpeg> galehar: made a bunch of notes, numbers to come.
16:27:32 <UbAh> glad to hear it
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16:28:35 <galehar> dpeg: thanks!
16:28:49 <dpeg> non-moving constrictor sounds a bit like a non-threat without a ranged attack... we'll come up with something fitting
16:29:24 <UbAh> so no ex girlfriend?
16:30:06 <dpeg> It has been found that the green anaconda (Eunectes murinus) has a constriction strength of 6 kg/cm2, which effectively means a total strength of 4000 kg
16:30:25 <galehar> one_chance_in(0) returns true. Seems counter intuitive.
16:30:45 <dpeg> galehar: is this actually used somewhere?
16:31:04 <galehar> i don't know. I don't want to check all calls to it!
16:31:09 <dpeg> hehe
16:31:15 <galehar> but I wanted to
16:31:18 <dpeg> galehar: not sure if you can chang it :)
16:31:35 <galehar> well, of course I can
16:31:36 <dpeg> I think we have one or two snakes of the restricting type. If we adapt one to the early game, it'd be a nice lesson.
16:31:43 <galehar> but the result might be... unpredictable.
16:32:11 <dpeg> galehar: you could make it spit out a message if one_chance_in is called with parameter 0
16:32:39 <dpeg> and if there is no message for anyone over the next forty days, call it stochastically safe to change
16:32:57 <elliptic> seems reasonable to me that it would return true
16:33:10 <elliptic> it should be more likely to return true than one_chance_in(1)
16:33:29 <elliptic> and it can't be more likely, but it can be the same likeliness :)
16:33:32 <galehar> makes sense
16:34:07 <galehar> let's not bother with it then. We have more important things to do.
16:35:32 <dpeg> There's the anaconda only. So we can have one more. I'll suggest one of the early snake to stay poisonous ("snake"), and the other one to hand a weakish constriction ("small snake"). Both names should be changed anyway.
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16:36:19 <dpeg> galehar: If I do ?/MSc I get the anaconda description with "It looks buggily threatening." Known?
16:37:17 <elliptic> does constriction do anything other than prevent movement?
16:37:49 <dpeg> elliptic: you're late :) Prevents movement and probably some kind of translocation (blink or teleport), reduces EV.
16:37:55 <UbAh> if your adding constriction shouldn't a whip do that?
16:37:59 <dpeg> elliptic: oh, and builds up damage over time.
16:38:08 <dpeg> UbAh: a whip isn't quite the same.
16:38:09 <UbAh> then any kobald with a whip would have that chance
16:38:12 <elliptic> right, I saw the blink discussion
16:38:22 <dpeg> elliptic: pretty hard not to see it, eh?
16:38:26 <UbAh> oh yes constriction not restriction
16:38:40 <dpeg> UbAh: a typical whip proposal is disarming
16:39:01 <elliptic> okay, damage over time, good, I wanted to know whether there was some aspect of it that would be potentially interesting on a weak enemy
16:39:08 <UbAh> so you will have the whip do it? not sure what you mean
16:39:48 <UbAh> you could have an early slime type that constricts
16:40:01 <dpeg> elliptic: as I see it, it will be both interesting for monsters against you (cannot flee as easily, and how important is this nagalet constricting you vs the tough guys in the background) as well as for player constriction
16:40:04 <UbAh> makes sense on how I imagine one to operate
16:40:43 <UbAh> will the naga get this, or maby a mutation to get it?
16:41:06 <dpeg> UbAh: the naga has a tail. DS with the tail mutation should also get it, I guess.
16:41:32 <dpeg> (depends on the type of tail I guess, some are for whipping)
16:41:43 <UbAh> but not DR
16:41:45 <galehar> dpeg: no, I didn't noticed this bug. The description shouldn't mention threat level in this case.
16:42:02 <dpeg> UbAh: the current list of potential constrictors are: naga (monster and player), octopus, kraken, anaconda, tentacled monstrosity
16:42:07 <dpeg> galehar: I can file if you want, just not now.
16:42:27 <MarvinPA> DS don't get tails, although there was an idea to add tentacles as a new body slot mut for them
16:42:44 <elliptic> dpeg: I'm not sure about having constriction stop teleport too, by the way... it seems both like a lot less of a problem (non-instant, finite resource) and a different mechanic
16:42:50 <dpeg> MarvinPA: because we had no use for the tail, I think... now we could.
16:42:51 <UbAh> to much internet and my mind goes bad places whenever I read "tentacled monstrosity"
16:43:34 <galehar> dpeg: yes please
16:43:35 <dpeg> elliptic: galehar's and my proposal was to stop blinking and have the constrictor come with you on teleports (depending on size)
16:43:48 <UbAh> would your fireshield's and spike mutation hurt the constrictor every turn?
16:43:49 <MarvinPA> some new body slot mut as an option to replace claws would be good, anyway
16:43:50 <Eronarn> because that won't confuse anyone at all
16:44:02 <dpeg> MarvinPA: don't like DS claws?
16:44:09 <MarvinPA> not outright replace, sorry
16:44:18 <MarvinPA> just as an alternate option for a glove slot mut
16:44:18 <dpeg> another alternative would be nice, yes
16:44:22 <MarvinPA> since claws are the only one right now
16:44:27 <dpeg> ah
16:44:36 <dpeg> but how would tail do the trick?
16:44:49 <MarvinPA> it wouldn't really, that's why i mentioned tentacles first :P
16:44:50 <UbAh> barding for DS?
16:44:52 <Eronarn> tail has the issue that it's not clear which slot would be lost (cloak?)
16:45:01 <dpeg> elliptic: so the idea would be that one tloc escape is blocked but the other is open with a caveat
16:45:05 <elliptic> dpeg: not sure about depending on size... knowing what will happen when you teleport seems like something that shouldn't require a size calculation
16:45:27 <UbAh> Eronarn: should be like the Naga
16:45:33 <elliptic> stopping blink and coming along for teleports sounds decent to me though
16:45:36 <dpeg> elliptic: yes, I don't see a problem (beyond realism) on having the guy go with you
16:45:57 <dpeg> (kraken may be tough code-wise, so warrant an exception perhaps)
16:46:11 <galehar> elliptic: teleporting and bringing along a kraken can be problematic
16:46:12 <UbAh> so you find a fly that grapples you then you teleport
16:46:24 <UbAh> result is you turn into Jeff Goldbloom
16:46:56 <elliptic> galehar: the tentacle breaks off and you arrive with a dying tentacle squeezing you
16:47:09 <dpeg> galehar: otoh, you could place the kraken just about anywhere near the player and connect a tentacle to the player
16:47:11 <galehar> elliptic: good idea
16:47:15 <dpeg> or that
16:47:40 * dpeg loves the tentacle portal's tentacles. Long live Mu!
16:48:46 <UbAh> early constrictor = worm?
16:49:05 <dpeg> would be good, but it is already slow... would mean more stone pelting
16:49:13 <UbAh> I imagine it more like a tapeworm looking thing blown out of proportion
16:49:19 <SquashMonster> worms are already interesting
16:49:25 <dpeg> I prefer a fast early constrictor, so you have to deal with it (damage can be low)
16:49:35 <UbAh> new worm
16:49:38 <UbAh> tapeworm
16:49:42 <elliptic> I thought turning small snake into a constrictor sounded reasonable
16:49:47 <dpeg> tapeworm <3
16:49:50 <UbAh> you you dont want to add, you looking to adapt?
16:49:58 <dpeg> elliptic: need to tone down damage a little
16:50:04 <dpeg> ah, not anaconda :)
16:50:25 <elliptic> @??small snake
16:50:25 <Gretell> small snake (03S) | Speed: 12 (swim: 60%) | HD: 1 | Health: 2-5 | AC/EV: 0/11 | Damage: 208(poison) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(1), 12drown | XP: 1.
16:50:27 <MarvinPA> UbAh: there's lots of boring early monsters, better to change one of the existing ones instead of adding something new
16:50:27 <dpeg> UbAh: generally yes. So many monsters could use something special. And else, due is responsible for adding.
16:50:49 <UbAh> it was the tentacle getting chopped off with teleport made me think of worms that you chop in half and the two halves form into two new worms
16:50:58 <elliptic> small snake currently is a monster that very very rarely does anything of note, except the one time it gets lucky and kills you with poison
16:51:01 <dpeg> elliptic: needs a new name, remove poison, give constriction
16:51:04 <elliptic> yes
16:51:37 <SquashMonster> long snake
16:51:43 <dpeg> and snake should be named after an actual, small, poisonous but not too poisonous snake -- such a beast must exist
16:51:51 <UbAh> Garter snakes and many other small snakes are constriction hunters
16:52:11 <UbAh> you still want poison or just constriction?
16:52:13 <dpeg> it needs to be big enough to believably constrict a human
16:52:22 <dpeg> "giant garter snake", I guess :)
16:52:31 <MarvinPA> nooo
16:52:32 <elliptic> ubah: poison for snake, constriction for small snake
16:52:34 <UbAh> fits an early dungeon flavor
16:52:37 <Galefury> viper is free now ^^
16:52:37 <dpeg> UbAh: poison is for snake
16:52:40 <UbAh> giant mice and mites
16:52:54 <dpeg> MarvinPA: megagarter snake?
16:52:57 <MarvinPA> haha
16:52:58 <MarvinPA> much better
16:53:04 <elliptic> can we bring megabat back
16:53:16 <SquashMonster> Coluber constrictor fits the bill, but it's a lame name
16:53:30 <dpeg> Galefury: viper sounds pretty poisonous to me, but perhaps it's okay
16:53:37 <SquashMonster> why giant garter snakes?  Why not tiny anacondas?
16:53:37 <dpeg> SquashMonster: and just Coluber?
16:53:44 <elliptic> microanaconda
16:53:46 <dpeg> elliptic: no, I am afraid.
16:54:00 <UbAh> most boas are not that big
16:54:08 <SquashMonster> pygmy anaconda
16:54:20 <dpeg> and everyone will trust a boa can do a man, so boa it is
16:54:25 <SquashMonster> dpeg: it's still an awkward name, and a poorly known snake.  I'll look up more
16:54:35 <SquashMonster> oh, unless boa got accepted
16:54:41 <dpeg> don't worry, I have scribbled Boa on my tablet
16:54:45 <UbAh> everyone knows boa's
16:54:51 <Zannick> µanaconda
16:55:02 <UbAh> though I miss the thought of a big garter snake
16:55:10 <dpeg> everyone's fine with s/snake/viper/ ?
16:55:27 <UbAh> I like
16:55:30 <SquashMonster> yes please
16:55:32 <Galefury> dpeg: i was thinking snake --> viper
16:55:37 <Zannick> what happened to the old viper?
16:55:42 <UbAh> viper is easily understood as poisonous for any new player
16:55:45 <Zannick> ie yellow snake
16:55:49 <elliptic> marvinpa killed the old viper
16:55:56 <Galefury> because "snake" is a pretty bad enemy name imo
16:56:00 <dpeg> ah, that's why it is free now -- thanks MarvinPA!
16:56:04 <MarvinPA> it had an unfortunate accident, yeah
16:56:06 <UbAh> you want an actual kind of viper for the name?
16:56:11 <dpeg> Galefury: we used to have snakes in all colours before
16:56:22 <Zannick> haha i remember all those
16:56:29 <dpeg> MarvinPA got bitten by a real life viper and reacted swiftly
16:56:36 <Galefury> oops, i should read faster, sry
16:56:37 <dpeg> UbAh: perhaps
16:56:39 <Zannick> snake, small snake, brown snake, black snake, yellow snake, grey snake
16:56:56 <dpeg> yes, it was impossible -- what were they thinking?
16:57:00 <UbAh> what do we have now?
16:57:10 <dpeg> press ?/Ms in game
16:57:12 <Galefury> yeah, <3 that donald line that got removed
16:57:15 <elliptic> dpeg: angband influence maybe
16:57:20 <dpeg> tsktsktsk
16:57:24 <Galefury> "this guide keeps referring to brown snakes"
16:57:29 <SquashMonster> I'm actually considering putting monster identification into a roguelike.  So one game brown snakes are poisonous, next game that's purple striped snakes
16:57:30 <dpeg> You should always take the good bits from others.
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16:57:50 <due> morning
16:57:51 <dpeg> SquashMonster: interesting idea, but needs to be incorporated from the ground up.
16:57:54 <dpeg> due: hi!
16:58:00 <Zannick> snake, small snake, water moccasin, cobra?, viper^W, anaconda
16:58:00 <SquashMonster> dpeg: definitely, that'd be an awful feature to try to add to Crawl
16:58:03 <dpeg> due: I am off though >(
16:58:06 <dpeg> erm, :)
16:58:10 <MarvinPA> black mamba, not cobra
16:58:14 <Zannick> ah, right
16:58:26 <Zannick> mamba, the one type of snake i hadn't heard of before crawl
16:58:44 <SquashMonster> oh, and if you're looking for a specific viper - pit viper
16:58:57 <SquashMonster> iconic name, not actually that special of a snake
16:58:58 <dpeg> Nethack has those, have to pass on this one =)
16:58:59 <elliptic> so does it make sense for water moccasin to be stronger than viper
16:59:02 <UbAh> The black mamba (Dendroaspis polylepis) is the longest venomous snake in Africa, averaging around 2.5 meters
16:59:12 <elliptic> I don't know anything about the snakes in question
16:59:15 <SquashMonster> darn, nethack has everything
16:59:37 <elliptic> but previously we had them the other way around and maybe we had a reason?
16:59:41 <dpeg> SquashMonster: yes, they're sitting on all the cool stuff with their non-coding derriers
16:59:46 <Zannick> nethack has orcs and goblins ;)
17:00:13 <dpeg> elliptic: I wondered the same, but cannot judge. I made a note, once I am back I'll try to sort this out and propose snake renaming.
17:00:45 <UbAh> keelback
17:00:53 <UbAh> not very iconic though
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17:01:20 <SquashMonster> horned vipers are cute
17:01:56 <UbAh> wikipedia is remarkably failing me with list of poisonous snakes
17:02:09 <CIA-34> 03galehar * rf8c3ee249be1 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Avoid mimics when looking for a destination staircase.
17:02:09 <CIA-34> 03galehar * r1ed98ade4916 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): Don't store the mimic name adjective in mname.
17:02:09 <CIA-34> 03galehar * r1e27f6ea3664 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Allow redefining known mimics glyph with the mon_glyph option (#3637).
17:02:09 <CIA-34> 03galehar * r3bca52542d0a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (items.cc items.h wiz-mon.cc): Allow choosing the item type when making a mimic in wizmode.
17:02:10 <CIA-34> 03galehar * rbc399cbf73ca 10/crawl-ref/source/wiz-dgn.cc: Loop the create_feature_wizard function on partial match.
17:02:10 <CIA-34> 03galehar * re68273eacd9e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dungeon.cc mapdef.cc mapdef.h): Change the mimic vault tag to an integer.
17:02:20 <CIA-34> 03galehar * r74898e23fd2e 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/zot.des: Further simplification of item mimic definition in lemuel_lich_library.
17:02:20 <CIA-34> 03galehar * r48dfb436cf96 10/crawl-ref/source/terrain.cc: Add statue mimics.
17:02:49 <UbAh> ok back to my neglects naga, though I am sure he appreciates all this snake talk
17:02:50 <SquashMonster> UbAh - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viper_%28animal%29#Subfamilies
17:03:26 <UbAh> yea I was there
17:03:33 <UbAh> not a very comprehensive list
17:03:43 <SquashMonster> well, following them down the tree gets there
17:04:00 <SquashMonster> apparently the puff adder is one of the most common venomous snakes?
17:04:21 <SquashMonster> who names a deadly snake the "puff adder?"
17:04:26 <UbAh> highly venomous or no?
17:04:43 <SquashMonster> yeah
17:04:56 <UbAh> if its not to deadly it would fit in early dungeon due to the name alone
17:05:01 <Zannick> adder is a common name for snake
17:05:11 <SquashMonster> I was thinking the puff part was more silly
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17:05:34 <Zannick> well, yes.
17:05:36 <SquashMonster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitis_arietans#Venom
17:05:46 <UbAh> Genus Bitis
17:05:46 <UbAh> haha
17:07:00 <UbAh> we have asp already?
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17:07:45 <SquashMonster> haha, learndb says asp is adjusted shield evasion penalty
17:09:07 <Zannick> python
17:09:28 <SquashMonster> no, we use lua
17:09:44 <Zannick> darn, i was hoping a magic the gathering search for snakes would turn up more
17:09:47 <UbAh> python should be constrictor right?  good one squash
17:10:10 <Zannick> but all of the ones that are actual snakes have already been mentioned, other than python
17:10:39 <Napkin> fibre-optic is back
17:11:16 <UbAh> Python, from the Greek word (πυθων), is a genus of non-venomous pythons found in Africa, Asia and Australia. Currently, 7 species are recognised
17:11:48 <UbAh> those would work instead of boa as the early constrictor but not the venomous one
17:12:09 <Zannick> Python is a genus of non-venomous pythons
17:12:24 <Zannick> and are members of the tautology club
17:13:33 <UbAh> pythons migth be a better fit than boa they are smaller and less of a threat to a man
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18:23:32 <Eronarn> python is good. use a quote about the programming language for the description :)
18:24:48 <Zannick> "This creature adds one new language to dcss."
18:25:05 <SquashMonster> parseltongue?
18:25:06 <dtsund> Give it an aversion to water and lava
18:25:20 <dtsund> And runes
18:25:40 <dtsund> Wait, water and lava aren't curly braces anymore.
18:26:01 <Zannick> depends on whether you have unicode on
18:26:11 <Zannick> i think
18:26:19 <SquashMonster> also whether you have tiles on
18:26:19 <Zannick> or i am misremembering
18:29:36 <Zannick> actually, yeah, water is ~ now isn't it?
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18:31:59 <Wensley> new snake?
18:32:28 <SquashMonster> they were talking about adding constriction to small snakes
18:32:34 <SquashMonster> also renaming small and plain snakes
18:32:46 <Wensley> I can get behind that
18:33:04 <evilmike> normal snakes should stay as snakes, since they are common enough
18:33:05 <Wensley> for the python quote you can use the zen of python
18:33:09 <evilmike> just like how normal trolls are just Trolls
18:33:14 <SquashMonster> top contenders are python and boa for small, viper and puff adder for regular
18:33:23 <Zannick> "top contenders"
18:33:29 <SquashMonster> I think?
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18:33:34 <SquashMonster> I wasn't paying too much attention
18:33:38 <SquashMonster> I think python and viper were on top
18:33:38 <evilmike> i'd call small snakes garter snakes, personally
18:33:42 <evilmike> that conveys "almost harmless" to me
18:33:46 <Zannick> it's not really something that's put to a vote
18:33:54 <Zannick> in fact, nothing is
18:34:04 <st_> Eronarn: I'm doing stuff with servitors if you want to watch (clouded on cdo)
18:34:18 <SquashMonster> of course, I'm summarizing the discussion, not the dev's minds :-P
18:34:49 <SquashMonster> evilmike - they wanted something larger so constriction made sense
18:35:28 <evilmike> what level of difficulty would you say servitors are?
18:35:52 <evilmike> i've got a project where i'm making a bunch of god themed vaults for late dungeon, and it would be neat to use a servitor in a yred one
18:36:03 <Wensley> yeah god themed vaults in late dungeon
18:36:07 <evilmike> just don't know what depth they are appropriate in
18:36:22 <Wensley> 15 or below
18:37:02 <Wensley> there are so many ood vaults in late D, it's not a big deal
18:37:03 <elliptic> st_: how did you get 4 bone dragons and 4 servitors by such a low level?
18:37:14 <elliptic> last time I played yred I got 1 bone dragon all game and that was it
18:37:29 <st_> I don't know
18:37:42 <st_> I even use drain life a lot
18:37:42 <Zannick> elliptic: and what level did you win at? :P
18:37:44 <elliptic> are you using faith?
18:37:51 <st_> no
18:37:52 <elliptic> !lg . won yred
18:38:09 <Sequell> 1. hyperbolic the Blinker (L24 DSWr), worshipper of Yredelemnul, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-01-24, with 1413111 points after 82036 turns and 9:44:42.
18:38:10 <st_> my last yred game used faith but I didn't actually get that many bone dragons/ghouls
18:38:38 <elliptic> st_: yeah, makes me wonder whether something got broken... or you could just have gotten lucky this game
18:39:25 <elliptic> also, why are servitors black squares half the time
18:39:30 <elliptic> this seems suboptimal
18:39:37 <evilmike> that doesn't look black to me
18:39:56 <evilmike> it looks like they have colour:necro or some other one like that, and it's appearing as black on darkgrey sometimes
18:40:03 <st_> they flicker between darkgrey and red, but I use darkgrey as my ally highlight
18:40:13 <st_> I've heard it looks weird to some people's terms
18:40:27 <Wensley> they use the same brand as yred's altar
18:40:39 <Zannick> yeah, the darkgrey ally highlight would do it
18:40:59 <Zannick> it kind of mixes it with the background, too
18:41:05 <elliptic> is darkgrey the color that squares out of LOS are?
18:41:13 <st_> yeah
18:41:23 <Zannick> since the background color crawl uses for my term appears to be the same
18:41:48 <Zannick> (as in, i cannot see your ally highlight either)
18:42:22 <Zannick> incidentally, why do they flicker between colors?
18:42:48 <elliptic> zannick: still, why would darkgrey-highlighted-by-darkgrey become black?
18:43:08 <Eronarn> st_: can't watch, doing readings... tell me how it goes though! :) i already sent some messages to MarvinPA about issues that they have
18:43:10 <Wensley> Zannick: lots of creatures do that
18:43:16 <Wensley> well like four
18:43:19 <Zannick> Wensley: not many
18:43:39 <elliptic> yes, they should just be red IMO
18:43:41 <Zannick> elliptic: it wasn't black for me, it was crawl's bg
18:44:07 <Eronarn> evilmike: servitors are tougher than bone dragons
18:44:08 <Zannick> well, the bg for the viewport
18:44:09 <Eronarn> @??angel
18:44:09 <Gretell> Angel (16A) | Speed: 15 | HD: 12 | Health: 85-123 | AC/EV: 10/20 | Damage: 25, 10 | Flags: 08holy, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(128), 10elec++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 08holy | XP: 2087 | Sp: minor healing.
18:44:36 <Eronarn> they basically have those stats, but also rC++, 18 HD, and vamp / draining on their attacks
18:44:39 <Eronarn> and no healing
18:45:18 <Eronarn> probably they'll get toned down, or they'll be made a lot rarer or even one of a kind of yredites
18:45:33 <Eronarn> the current form is just too good if you can get them at low XL
18:46:48 <Eronarn> also... i am of course open to color changes for servitors / umbra
18:47:05 <Eronarn> for example, could be: servitors magenta A, umbra magenta/darkred .
18:47:51 <Eronarn> both the servitor and the ground using darkgrey is not ideal, even if it's elemental darkgrey
18:48:02 <elliptic> please don't make elemental umbra
18:48:19 <MarvinPA> maybe umbra should just be darkred
18:48:19 <Henzell> MarvinPA: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
18:48:47 <MarvinPA> or magenta
18:48:47 <MarvinPA> dunno
18:49:06 <MarvinPA> and yeah i'll have a look into making them rarer or toning down their stats a bit at some point
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18:55:24 <Wensley> in the meantime, homo of yred is the new spen
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18:58:07 <Eronarn> elliptic: well, umbra is already elemental - darkgrey/purple
18:58:14 <Eronarn> i think this looks pretty, but it is hard to spot sometimes
18:58:41 <Eronarn> elemental and easier to spot gets too clashy, though
18:58:56 <elliptic> I guess elemental is better than the zot glow monstrosity
18:59:20 <Eronarn> the elemental numbers can be tweaked, also... like it could be magenta for 90% of tiles, darkgrey for 10%
18:59:55 <Eronarn> or we could look into using a different glyph for haloed/umbra'd floor, in addition to color
19:00:15 <MarvinPA> oh god, red halo is terrifying
19:00:22 <elliptic> how about just using purple
19:03:37 <st_> I think Yred has some strange sweet spot for gifting the good stuff... like right now all I'm getting is mummies and flying skulls, and the servitors and dragons come in a big clump around orc/early vaults
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19:06:53 <Eronarn> st_: the formula yred uses is really weird / bad
19:07:04 <Eronarn> it's not really based on piety
19:07:41 <Eronarn> i think it might make more sense if yred gave you gifts pretty much as you went deeper
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19:08:51 <Eronarn> not having it based strongly on piety is cool - make the piety just about active abilities - but make the undead you get scale better with the kinds of challenges you are facing
19:12:42 <Mu_> would break in sprint, if that's important
19:12:45 <elliptic> yeah, it looks like the formula is just based on number of past gifts currently, and it has capped by the time you get the first servitor?
19:13:08 <elliptic> and each possible gift is equally likely at that point?
19:13:55 <MarvinPA_> yeah
19:14:06 <MarvinPA_> a better formula would be cool
19:14:36 <MarvinPA_> but i have no idea what kind of thing would make a good replacement :P
19:26:30 <Eronarn> MarvinPA_: what about tying it to flavor and just having them claw their way out of the ground as you pass by
19:26:47 <Eronarn> stronger undead would simply be found on deeper levels
19:28:14 <Eronarn> if it weren't piety based at all, that would give yred an interesting distinction from the other ally gifting gods
19:34:20 <Wensley> it might be fine if yred is suboptimal for sprint
19:35:04 <Wensley> also now this encourages spdk to dive for better gifts, which might be great
19:39:57 <Eronarn> you could maybe based it, in sprint, on # of tiles seen
19:40:08 <Eronarn> or XL
19:40:44 <Eronarn> though i feel working with depth is more flavorful in the main game - for example, you could have certain kinds of undead show up in certain branches more often
19:41:04 <Eronarn> death oozes in slime
19:41:05 <Eronarn> :)
19:41:14 <evilmike> would have to watch out for scumming potential there
19:42:34 <Wensley> I think sprint might be more interesting if you were only allowed to choose a certain subset of characters
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19:48:51 <SquashMonster> on a per-sprint basis?
19:49:10 <Wensley> yes
19:49:33 <Wensley> perhaps even background unique to each sprint
19:49:39 <SquashMonster> that'd be nice, but I think having a good set of any-character ones is important too
19:49:52 <SquashMonster> picking a character and making it work for the sprint is interesting
19:53:39 <Wensley> does anyone know why make says that no zlib.h exists, even though there are four zlib.h files in the contribs folder?
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20:22:04 <Henzell> m00se the Eclecticist (L23 NaWz)  (Lair:2)
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21:13:39 <Ashenzari> Two large god-themed vaults for mid-late D (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4509) by evilmike
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21:28:15 <SquashMonster> I went and figured out how to make sprints only available for certain classes/races
21:28:44 <SquashMonster> it's not too hard, just need to check what the tags should be called
21:29:39 <SquashMonster> would sprint_no_spen, sprint_no_spriggan, and sprint_no_enchanter be okay?
21:32:43 <Pingas> evilmike: Please tell me there will be a Cheibriados vault along with the other god vaults.
21:32:55 <evilmike> that's one of the ones i plan on not doing
21:33:02 <Pingas> Nooooooooooo.
21:33:07 <evilmike> it would be impossible to make it anything other than a joke
21:33:11 <evilmike> what would it have? slugs?
21:33:12 <Pingas> :(
21:33:43 <Pingas> "Slow stuff". It could even scale.
21:33:55 <evilmike> slow stuff isn't really that difficult, though
21:34:12 <rawrmage> wand of polymorph other near it
21:34:29 <evilmike> I should mention, i have a bit of a bias against slow melee monsters
21:34:30 <rawrmage> trick them into zapping slow high hd things
21:34:41 <evilmike> golems, slugs, etc are the most boring monsters in the game, imo
21:34:50 <evilmike> trivial for almost all builds
21:35:57 <Pingas> But what if there happened to be an aura making you slow down. Chei wouldn't want to see you run through his themed vault.
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21:36:38 <evilmike> leda's liquefaction is monster-castable... but it is a bit buggy
21:38:35 <evilmike> at the moment the gods i have vault ideas for are vehumet, kiku, yred, okawaru, fedhas, ash (just a small one), maaaaybe trog
21:39:16 <Pingas> How would Oka theme be?
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21:41:12 <evilmike> monsters with things like "knight", "warrior", "warlord", etc in their names
21:41:39 <evilmike> oh, and wiglaf.
21:42:45 <Pingas> Wiglaf is such a pimp.
21:43:15 <Pingas> That hat should be an actual drop.
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21:44:57 <Eronarn> evilmike: what would be cute for a chei vault: black hole style time distortion
21:45:09 <Eronarn> going 'downhill', you're always faster
21:45:15 <Eronarn> getting back *out* is the challenge
21:45:32 <evilmike> heh
21:45:40 <evilmike> yeah, that would be pretty neat. a bit beyond my abilities, though
21:45:49 <Eronarn> yeah i don't think that is currently even possible really
21:46:07 <Eronarn> but in principle it's pretty doable
21:47:07 <Eronarn> evilmike: btw, for Yred - it would be cool to see one with a profane servitor and lots of zombie paladins
21:47:13 <Eronarn> @??paladin
21:47:14 <Gretell> paladin (16@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 47-78 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 26 | Flags: 08holy, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(40), 04rot, 13neg+++, 08holy | XP: 812.
21:47:19 <evilmike> yeah, I definitely plan on using a profane servitor
21:47:39 <evilmike> paladins i'm a bit hesitant to use... they're not flagged unfinished but they clearly are
21:47:49 <evilmike> try spawning some and looking at the items they drop
21:47:55 <Eronarn> 'zombie paladin' = human zombie with some gear
21:48:05 <evilmike> hmm, fair enough
21:48:09 <elliptic> paladins don't exist
21:48:10 <elliptic> sorry
21:48:20 <Eronarn> zombie crusader
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21:48:40 <Eronarn> btw, how would people feel about ghoul priests of Yred?
21:48:53 <evilmike> as a monster?
21:49:14 <evilmike> for the player it seems that it overlaps with death knights too much
21:49:18 <Eronarn> yes, but potentially as a yred summon... there aren't that many intelligent undead spellcasters appropriate for gifting
21:49:50 <Eronarn> whereas stuff like orcs and elves have lots of 'classes'
21:50:02 <evilmike> true
21:50:07 <due> YES LD
21:50:10 <due> ER, yes.
21:50:12 <Eronarn> a ghoul necromancer that can fire bolts of draining would be cool, for instance
21:50:22 <evilmike> that reminds me, one monster type that is lacking in classes is trolls. I'm thinking deep trolls in particular
21:50:24 <due> But can we disavow the "Standard" type names?
21:50:37 <due> evilmike: If we're going to do that, deep trolsl need to become non-healing.
21:51:05 <Eronarn> due: ghoul vivisector! pain & agony and bleeding melee attack
21:51:09 <due> Eronarn: <3
21:51:26 <due> Eronarn: also, we need merfolk hydrophobes
21:51:29 <evilmike> rename rock trolls to moon trolls and give them antimagic attacks
21:51:45 <Eronarn> 'This ghoul has had its massive claws replaced with massive scalpels.'
21:52:01 <due> Eronarn: <333
21:52:02 <Eronarn> an antimagic, not-silent-specter undead would be cool
21:52:19 <Eronarn> like a mage who died from too much glow
21:52:21 <due> I like the word "husk" in connection with this.
21:52:26 <due> "sucking husk" isn't quite right
21:52:34 <due> but it's basically like this husk that just sucks things up, like a blackhole.
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21:54:01 <Eronarn> due: 'harrowing husk'?
21:54:07 <Eronarn> (we need more alliteration)
21:54:34 <due> harrowing husk is good!
21:54:46 <due> @??lurking horror
21:54:47 <Gretell> unknown monster: "lurking horror"
21:54:52 <due> one day i will get around to coding them up
21:55:05 <Eronarn> one day i will get around to coding hunting horrors :(
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21:55:48 <Eronarn> oh, oh, due
21:55:57 <Eronarn> random conversation i had today gave me a great idea for a non-traditional class name
21:56:05 <Eronarn> 'vampire sommelier'
21:58:15 <due> oooh
21:58:28 <due> that is beyond awesome and into the realms of fucking. a.
21:58:37 <due> i.e., antique lich, only not quite so kitsch.
21:58:41 <due> (more kitchen than kitsch!)
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21:59:06 <Eronarn> we have death cobs, so we should clearly add a kitchen sink
21:59:12 <Eronarn> spawns snakes if you attack it as a monk
21:59:23 <due> "too much like nethack"
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22:08:56 <Ashenzari> Warn the player before wielding an un-id'ed weapon of distortion (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4510) by GreatZebu
22:09:00 <SquashMonster> so, no opinions on what class/race/combo ban tags for sprints should be?
22:09:37 <due> We should ban class/race/combos for sprint?
22:09:41 <due> Why?
22:10:02 <SquashMonster> someone suggested being able to ban specific ones for specific sprints
22:10:19 <elliptic> this sounds unlikely to happen
22:10:37 <SquashMonster> the code's not that bad
22:10:45 <evilmike> that patch just submitted takes all of the danger out of wield-IDing items
22:10:50 <SquashMonster> if you guys don't think anyone will want melee-only sprints or whatever, I won't bother
22:11:00 <elliptic> unless someone has a really clever idea for a new sprint map that really requires this, it sounds bad to me
22:11:10 <due> why?
22:11:28 <due> wait what
22:11:31 <Eronarn> SquashMonster: let's wait until someone wants to make a melee-only sprint before bothering iwth the code to enable them
22:11:39 <SquashMonster> righto
22:11:43 <due> also
22:11:50 <SquashMonster> someone message me if you decide you need it, I've got the notes
22:11:50 <due> "class" != "melee-only"
22:12:04 <due> what if I start a spellcaster and decided to pick up a knife? or fight barehanded?
22:12:14 <SquashMonster> due: I meant melee heavy classes.  Any class subset
22:12:33 <Eronarn> a spellcaster only sprint could be fun
22:12:33 <due> also, how are you intending on implementing it? defining a list of "allowed races" in the maps and then consulting them before allowing the player to select that sprint?
22:12:38 <Eronarn> Sif Muna's Haunted Library!
22:13:03 <SquashMonster> due: I was going to let people ban specific races, combos, and classes in the sprint des.  So all allowed by default
22:13:42 <SquashMonster> seemed like a better idea than adding an extra step people had to do for unrestricted spritns
22:13:45 <due> SquashMonster: gah, that is ... unpleasant. you would actually be better to specify wheter a class if melee or magic or whatever, and then have "melee_only", "magic_only", "all" TAGs and then use find_maps-by_tag.
22:14:11 <due> And then the C++ can do a look-up against the job table to consult on magic status, and then just present a list of tagged sprint maps that match.
22:14:48 <SquashMonster> I'm confused; map selection is before combo selection
22:14:49 <due> Defining a black-list of classes in DES format would be prone to errors -- class names change, class definitions change...
22:15:00 <SquashMonster> that's true
22:15:15 <due> Well, then you just reverse the logic.
22:15:21 <due> But anyway, I'm not sure that tehre's a need for it yet?
22:15:50 <SquashMonster> though doing "melee_only" et all means new code for each thing people go for, instead of generically working for Orc Priests only, a subset of bad combos, or any other thign people think of
22:16:12 <due> It would also require very stringent map definitions to prevent players accidentally gaining magic at a later date.
22:16:23 <due> What's to prevent them from reading scrolls until they get a magic skill and then using a scroll of acquirement?
22:16:35 <due> I just see too many issues with implementation for it to be practical :/
22:17:19 <SquashMonster> due: I'd think that's an interesting thing for players to do.  The idea isn't melee only and magic only sprints, it's class-restricted spritns where melee-classes-only is an example
22:18:04 <SquashMonster> anyway, if you don't want it until someone wants to do a sprint it's appropriate for, that's cool.  I'll hold on to my notes
22:19:36 <Wensley> SquashMonster: sorry to make you do all that work for nothing, I was just throwing out random ideas (and I'm not a dev, so you probably shouldn't listen to me :P )
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22:20:12 <SquashMonster> Wensley: don't worry about it, I searched because I thought it was interesting and wouldn't step on any toes
22:20:42 <due> oh, I didn't mean to be a downer
22:20:57 <due> just not sure I can imagine a map that could take advantage of it well...
22:22:14 <elliptic> IMO it would be better to implement a flag for a map that makes casting spells in that map impossible
22:22:27 <due> elliptic: yes, that would be a good one
22:22:31 <elliptic> and not worry about which classes to allow and such
22:22:42 <due> could be done as a level flag
22:22:49 <due> like... no-ctele
22:22:54 <elliptic> or a flag that makes melee/ranged impossible
22:23:15 <SquashMonster> those would be interesting in vault flags too
22:23:18 <SquashMonster> for part of a level
22:23:35 <Wensley> I think there's a future for sprint in having very short, very *focused* maps that are less random and more about having excellent strategic and tactical planning, but would only allow certain starting packages so as to allow whoever was making it to more specifically tailor the user experience
22:23:42 <Wensley> this is where I was coming from
22:23:57 <evilmike> it's hard to really communicate that sort of thing to the player when it's just a vault, and not a full level
22:24:24 <SquashMonster> using that Sif Muna's library thing, it'd be fun if the only allowed classes were prue casters... and berserkers
22:24:29 <SquashMonster> er, pure.
22:24:48 <Wensley> yes, the sprint maps I was envisioning were more "scenarios" than the current sprint maps
22:24:57 <due> evilmike: well, messages are potential
22:25:15 <SquashMonster> "no casting" already has an associated appearance in silence
22:25:28 <evilmike> can you give tiles overlays using vaults?
22:25:38 <evilmike> just as a visual effect, I mean
22:25:44 <due> evilmike: define "overlays", but likely not yet.
22:25:48 <due> evilmike: per-tile overlaps?
22:26:00 <evilmike> stuff like the squares you see when something is silenced or in a halo
22:26:02 <evilmike> I'm thinking tiles
22:26:07 <due> evilmike: if so, no; so long as it exists as an actual /tile/ and therefore has the related tile enum
22:26:16 <due> then it's potentially possible.
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22:27:33 <evilmike> I was just thinking it would be a way of marking whether an area has -CAST or whatever
22:27:44 <evilmike> lets players see where the border is, rather than relying on messages
22:27:54 <Wensley> librarian statues, casting silence
22:28:02 <due> but... i would hazard that allowing people to set overlays is bad
22:28:26 <due> better to create a new prop that has teh associated effect of setting a tile overla
22:28:30 <due> *overlayh
22:28:34 <due> and then assigning that prop from the vault.
22:29:05 <due> this prevents any divergent behaviour or dichotomy (i.e., areas that are -CAST but no flags, or areas that have an overlay but are accidentally not -CAST)
22:29:28 <evilmike> yeah that's a good point
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22:32:36 <SquashMonster> Wensley: sif's library, sprint, casting classes and berserkers only.  Loot is almost all stuff only spellcasters would use, but all enemies are paper-thin casters.  Librarian statues make casters hard in palces due to silence, but a few slow-moving melee bruisers (book worms, like rock worms) make things hard for berserkers.  About what you had in mind?
22:32:58 <Wensley> they should only cast silence if you use loud spells
22:33:04 <evilmike> funny, I just uploaded a sif library (sorta) to mantis
22:33:08 <Wensley> no meph cloud
22:33:13 <Wensley> no lightning
22:33:16 <Wensley> etc.
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22:33:40 <Wensley> I think these little scenario sprint maps could also make decent tutorials
22:34:02 <Wensley> as a sort of intermediary between the current tutorials and an actual game
22:34:51 <evilmike> sprint tends to reward tactics that don't work in the real game though
22:35:08 <Wensley> I am envisioning these maps as entirely differet from past sprints
22:35:28 <SquashMonster> Wensley: do you do dungeon design?
22:35:37 <Wensley> not yet
22:35:43 <Wensley> it's on the list!
22:35:48 <Wensley> (it's a long list)
22:36:19 <Wensley> in any case, these are all just nebulous ideas right now, not really a high priority for me
22:36:19 <SquashMonster> yeah... this was all on my break from learning ajax/servlets/json/nonsense @_@
22:36:50 <Wensley> my high priority right now is setting up my server, which means getting crawl to compile, which means figuring out what "package.h:12:18: error: zlib.h: No such file or directory" means
22:37:08 <SquashMonster> are other things from your contribs directory getting used?
22:37:21 <Wensley> I'm just doing a make with standard settings
22:37:31 <SquashMonster> yeah, I had to install like twelve things
22:37:35 <Wensley> I have zlib, and there are tons of zlibs in the contribs
22:38:18 <SquashMonster> I solved all my problems by installing development versions of libraries.  Dunno how that works if you're not on a linux
22:38:43 <Wensley> I am on a linux... is it sad that compiling crawl on windows was easier than this?
22:39:14 <SquashMonster> what's sad is that the main Crawl page's idea of a Linux version is the source ball, so it's easier to install Wine and run the Windows one
22:40:19 <Wensley> success! I did need the dev package
22:40:25 <SquashMonster> woohoo!
22:40:37 <SquashMonster> yeah, if you run into other libraries with that problem, just look for those
22:40:57 <Wensley> the problem was also that there are about three dozen packages with "zlib" in the name
22:44:36 <Wensley> it's so nice to compile crawl and not have it take half an hour
22:44:49 <Wensley> really need a new computer ;_;
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