00:07:35 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-364-g94e4581 (32) 00:11:59 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13:52 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 00:14:15 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:14:35 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:34:08 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 00:46:25 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 00:49:18 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:03 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:56:59 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 01:34:45 Ctrl-X text is cycled (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4451) by Manslay 01:45:31 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:45:54 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 01:46:20 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest17731 02:05:17 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 02:23:51 -!- GreatZebu has quit [Quit: GreatZebu] 02:25:38 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:32:30 Isn't the tournament over by now? 02:38:10 -!- GreatZebu has joined ##crawl-dev 02:46:48 -!- GreatZebu has quit [Quit: GreatZebu] 03:04:35 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 03:08:02 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:27:51 -!- hoody has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:28:05 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 03:29:02 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:29:03 -!- hoody has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:30:00 -!- hoody_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:30:19 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 03:33:23 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:33:23 -!- hoody has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:41:00 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 04:00:22 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:09:59 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:13:16 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:16:54 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 04:58:05 -!- jlewis has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:07:55 -!- jlewis has joined ##crawl-dev 05:52:07 Napkin: hey, CDO has non-ancient versions of Crawl disabled! That's an urgent thing to fix! 05:52:41 pardon? 05:53:35 kilobyte: 0.9 is ancient now? 05:54:02 ah, trunk :D 05:54:10 yes sir, yes sir 05:54:28 ghallberg: exactly :) 05:56:24 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:02:48 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-357-g613469b (32) 06:02:51 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:03:37 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:03:37 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:06:06 kilobyte: fixed, please verify 06:08:27 Napkin: <3 06:13:30 Vaults in large.des not being loaded (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4452) by evilmike 06:13:40 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:14:28 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:14:36 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:23:10 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:23:11 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:24:09 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:24:09 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:33:04 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 06:33:04 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:33:43 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:33:43 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:38:16 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 06:40:19 -!- DiazepaN has joined ##crawl-dev 06:42:44 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 06:51:28 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 06:56:02 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:00:54 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 07:04:11 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:08:55 talk about redundancy: Generating new level for 'Spider:1'. Found random map spider_trap for Spider:1 07:22:55 kilobyte: so you're finishing the Spider branch? Great! Should we start to ask vault designers for branch end vaults? 07:23:17 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:26:17 galehar: at least getting it into 0.3/0.4 Shoals state for now 07:26:26 could be a good idea 07:26:46 heck, we might even enable it for testing in trunk to get a clue about balance 07:30:52 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 07:33:44 * due is up for vault-designing. 07:34:04 -!- voker57 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:50:43 Napkin: is CIA still supposed to be running at CDO? 07:50:57 what do you mean? 07:51:10 CIA is still being informed by CDO, yes 07:51:28 but the daemon is not run on any local machines 07:51:31 it doesn't seem to be working 07:51:45 no email and no irc message for commits 07:52:12 since when? 07:54:52 -!- blueDave has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:55:45 spider branch end vaults (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4453) by galehar 07:55:45 last email was 2 days ago 07:57:27 is there a list anywhere of what spawns in Spider 07:57:51 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:branch:spider#monsters 07:57:57 ty 07:58:01 not sure if it's exhaustive 07:59:14 -!- blueDave has joined ##crawl-dev 07:59:39 http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-pick.cc#line1805 07:59:50 ah that's better thanks 08:00:40 03kilobyte * rb238edcdf2de 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/features.txt: Don't imply that regular fountains provide nutrition. They don't anymore. 08:00:41 03galehar * rc1a1f37fd6e0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (skills.cc skills.h skills2.cc): Calculate the skill cost at the end of the transfer not at each iteration. 08:00:41 03kilobyte * r94e45811bbd0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (tileweb.cc webserver/static/game/render.js): Orb glow in webtiles. 08:00:41 03kilobyte * rc5220e3641fa 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dgn-delve.cc dgn-delve.h makefile.obj): Reimplement Kusigrosz' layout_delve. 08:00:41 03kilobyte * rde2d8d3d7e73 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Allow delve() to operate on both grd or map_lines. 08:00:42 03kilobyte * rd634ad857459 10/crawl-ref/source/l_dgnbld.cc: Fix lua wrapper to delve() passing arguments in a cumbersome way. 08:00:42 03kilobyte * r306f08b7618e 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/layout.des: Temporarily enable the whole range of knobs for layout_delve. 08:00:43 03kilobyte * r1ca4cb45e5b5 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-delve.cc: layout_delve: in grd mode, don't trample upon MMT_VAULT. 08:00:43 03kilobyte * r48ae2f5db97d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files in 2 dirs): Fix stairs to/from Spider not being generated and not working. 08:00:43 03kilobyte * r3fd098914748 10/crawl-ref/source/tilepick.cc: Fix tiles compilation. 08:00:54 03kilobyte * r808eab6ed74f 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/spider.des: Minimal vaults needed for Spider to work. 08:00:54 03galehar 07mimics * r6f1855e8c90a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dgn-overview.cc dgn-overview.h stairs.cc): Clear dungeon overview of leftover mimics when a branch is entered. 08:00:54 03galehar 07mimics * rc3f09a8da9c6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-info.cc mon-info.h showsymb.cc tags.cc): Remove mimic_feature from monster_info. 08:00:54 03galehar 07mimics * r8a1671e9b571 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Allow another lab to be generated if the first one is a mimic. 08:00:54 03galehar 07mimics * r47898123f118 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-util.cc tilepick.cc): Don't save shop type for shop mimics. 08:00:54 03galehar 07mimics * r3542ec16e3e6 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Clear markers and listeners when a feature mimic is revealed. 08:01:20 the "git --bare remote update --prune gitorious" process was stuck 08:01:26 no idea why 08:01:28 fixed 08:01:41 03MarvinPA 07stone_soup-0.9 * rb0518eedd5ba 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Don't duplicate banished uniques when they follow you out of the abyss 08:01:41 03galehar 07stone_soup-0.9 * r23aabfa6a2f4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (skills.cc skills.h skills2.cc): Calculate the skill cost at the end of the transfer not at each iteration. 08:01:41 03galehar * r07851d86b698 10/crawl-ref/source/shopping.cc: Fix shops not showing tried items as unknown. 08:01:41 03user 07layout * r964fd5c71652 10/crawl-ref/source/perlin.cc: Allow compilation on 32 bit. 08:01:41 03kilobyte * r0f49582547d0 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Fix reversed logic that inhibited chaos clones. 08:01:41 03galehar * r8a05b7378f99 10/crawl-ref/source/util/list_merged_branches.pl: A little script for listing remote branches which have been merged. 08:01:42 03kilobyte * r75cfc71514a0 10/crawl-ref/source/mapdef.cc: Consider permarock ('X') to be solid for map purposes. 08:02:25 Napkin: cool! 08:03:03 just glad the hooks weren't the problem ;) 08:06:25 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 08:17:56 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 08:18:00 !seen galehar 08:18:01 I last saw galehar at Mon Aug 29 12:59:39 2011 UTC (18m 21s ago) saying http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-pick.cc#line1805 on ##crawl-dev. 08:18:27 galehar: Nice call for action on the forum! 08:18:46 I think we should talk about two spidery topics (not necessarily now): webs and poison. 08:21:03 yeah, kilobyte is working on spider level layout, so I thought it was a good time to call for vaults 08:21:16 yes, it is 08:21:33 I've been chatting about webs with jpeg over the weekend. 08:21:33 there's already a web trap design on the wiki 08:21:34 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:branch:spider#web_trap 08:22:12 They'd be a natural trap for Spider, of course. In slight deviation from realism, all spiders could pass webs unhindered. The player not (unless in spider form). 08:22:57 He'd have to find the trap in advance or struggle free net-like. If found, he can try to destroy the net (I'd say no to burning webs, as fire already solves so much in Crawl.) 08:23:10 The best thing is that new webs could pop in Spider levels! 08:23:46 We don't need anything realistic like a spider walking around -- stuff outside the player's view happens automatically. Imagine trying to flee and there are traps when there were none before :) 08:24:26 I guess this is wiki stuff, sorry for monologue. 08:25:16 how is fire solving so much? It only burns through wax and kill monsters, doesn't it? 08:25:18 dpeg: nah, that's ok 08:25:31 we don't read IRC 100% of the time... 08:25:48 sure, no-one does :) 08:26:26 I do :( 08:27:04 !coffee ghallberg 08:27:06 * Henzell hands ghallberg a mug of soy latte, brewed by Ijyb. 08:30:37 so, web trap spawns across several squares and when you stumble in it, one or more spiders appear and come for lunch. 08:31:13 they can respawn. I guess we could use monster respawning algorithm. Instead of spawning a spider, spawn a web trap. 08:31:34 Yes. It might be good to have webs spawns in clusters. 08:32:00 ^..^ 08:32:03 ^^.^ 08:32:05 ..^. 08:32:08 like so 08:33:11 but one trap can already be spread of several squares. So how many traps are there in your example? 2? 3? 08:34:03 ah, good question 08:34:16 and what's the point of having a cluster? You step in one, kill the spiders, go on your way and immediately stumble into another one? 08:34:33 my point is that the player should want to pause and search for a few turns to avoid getting webbed -- no idea how to count the traps :) 08:34:40 ^ 08:35:00 By the way, web spawning will also help with mischievous playes who dig their own tunnels. 08:35:55 just random placement is fine. Clusters will happen naturally. 08:36:04 galehar: ok! 08:36:25 oh, and I like the idea of branch convergence: placement chance could go up with depth 08:38:41 ok, time to reply to the door god 08:44:28 so, here is what my list_merged_branches script gives: 08:44:32 abyss unicode slime_connectivity wandering articulated_kraken ballisto_upgrade stone_soup-0.6 direction-rewrite wizlab 08:44:55 appart from stone_soup-0.6, can we delete them all? 08:45:06 articulated kraken is in 08:45:26 not sure what direction-rewrite is, the ballistos are also in, I think 08:45:49 yes I know. The script list remote branches which have alrady been merged. 08:45:55 it parses git log 08:45:57 ah; I see 08:46:13 Can ask kilobyte right about the unicode :) 08:46:17 *here 08:46:17 I'm wondering if there might be any reason not to delete them 08:46:51 no idea -- I guess if a branch has fulfilled its role it should be deleted, but it does not always happen 08:48:16 there's no "unicode" branch on Gitorious 08:49:09 git branch -a gives remotes/origin/unicode 08:52:40 there is one on SF but not on Gitorious 08:53:31 can I delete it? 08:55:31 seems to be something stale on your side, I guess 08:55:38 of course 08:55:58 I tried deleting it just in case but got a message there is no such ref 08:58:01 -!- DiazepaN has quit [Quit: DiazepaN] 08:58:53 ok, I'll tried some cleaning up 08:59:00 *I'll try 08:59:20 hmm, wizlab seems to be not identical with what's in trunk 09:00:07 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:02:20 false alarm, cherry-picked in a non-obvious way 09:02:34 kilobyte: that's good 09:02:49 sorting out two versions of an old branch sounds pretty bad 09:12:28 hey galehar? 09:12:50 you wrote some explanation about the new skill system in the tavern, right? 09:13:28 does spider have enemies that are unique to the end vault? all the other branches have that sudden shift in enemy composition 09:14:16 Mu_: could use some moths? 09:14:31 Mu_: ghost moths 09:14:43 ok 09:14:54 they're supposed to be Zot/Spider:5 only 09:15:00 Mu_: not fitting for the spider portal vaults, but should be okay for spider branch end 09:16:27 !tell edlothiol webtiles 0.9 update on CDO is required, right? 09:16:28 Napkin: OK, I'll let edlothiol know. 09:17:00 mostly because of being not-so-pushovers for Zot 09:17:16 you can have either that or suitability for a Lair:1 portal 09:17:58 and we needed a greater naga type monster anyway 09:26:50 oh, shallow water has a new glyph? 09:27:25 nothing changed since 0.8 09:27:51 it's ÷ in my current 0.9 game 09:28:30 while previously it was ≈ 09:28:32 eh? 09:28:41 i am just as surprised as you 09:29:52 ÷ is U+00F7, and it's not in any of default sets 09:30:20 ah, lol 09:30:32 char_set = unicode 09:30:36 cset_ascii = wavy: xf7 09:30:50 that is read and used, even though it's cset_ascii 09:31:42 not sure that's a regresseion though - i uncommented cset_ascii when i ported my 0.8 config to 0.9 09:31:50 yeah, it now affects only translation of the symbol you provided (and ASCII and Unicode are pass-through) 09:32:08 i don't understand that sentence, kilobyte ;) 09:32:38 cset_ascii = cset_unicode, right? 09:32:58 I did that intentionally, so you can use cset_ibm codes like a few folks asked, while mixing them with regular Unicode 09:33:40 effectively, yeah... char_set=XXX is not same but cset_XXX hardly matters except for ibm and dec 09:34:18 erm.. aha 09:35:43 so, no matter what charset you have selected - all cset_* are read.. and using _ibm & _dec just changes the way the value is interpreted? 09:37:25 hey, how is traps & doors skill trained now? 09:38:00 do you get xp for trying to deactivate a trap? 09:39:41 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 09:40:56 no you don't get xp 09:41:16 same as before, disarming a trap practise the skill 09:41:24 which is needed to gain the skill 09:41:32 or to train it if in auto mode 09:41:40 so.. it's as if there would be points in the xp pool 09:42:16 hey galehar, you wrote some explanation about the new skill system in the tavern, right? 09:42:16 hmmm. kinda. 09:42:25 what do you want to know? 09:42:43 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:42:43 yeah, I explained some stuff there, sure 09:42:58 i'd like to create a wordpress link to it 09:43:02 in this thread mostly 09:43:02 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2045 09:43:04 such things are quire important 09:43:48 I've answered questions all over the place, not sure if there is a post which a condensed explanation 09:44:27 pity - that would be cool 09:45:04 creating a pseudo-post in wordpress and link it to a tavern entry should be a good way to inform more people then 09:47:46 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:48:17 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 09:48:41 how much detail is needed? Like for the manual? Or some "under the hood" implementation details? 09:49:10 i'd say basic usage and then a link to the forum post you gave? 09:50:49 well, i created the linking post for now 09:51:59 anyways, just wanted to point out, that such linking posts in wordpress might be a good idea - for people who prefer posting and discussing in the forums 09:52:09 -!- purge has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:52:41 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:54:38 hihi, one game and i'm already unmotivated to try again ;> 09:59:29 !lg Napkin 09:59:30 1006. Napkin the Sneak (L2 KoAs), slain by Terence (a +0,+0 flail) on D:2 on 2011-08-29, with 170 points after 1106 turns and 0:15:03. 09:59:33 !lg Napkin -2 09:59:33 1005. Napkin the Skirmisher (L1 KoBe), worshipper of Trog, quit the game on D:1 (dpeg entry rooms a) on 2011-08-28, with 20 points after 1 turn and 0:02:08. 09:59:35 !lg Napkin -3 09:59:36 1004. Napkin the Skirmisher (L1 KoBe), worshipper of Trog, quit the game on D:1 (noname entry rooms in the neighbourhood) on 2011-08-28, with 20 points after 1 turn and 0:00:18. 10:03:43 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 10:19:44 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:21:33 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 10:24:46 Zaba: there was a problem with generation of the Vaults entrance 10:26:07 -!- CoffeeOblivion has joined ##crawl-dev 10:26:40 dpeg, probably a level was generated with an area behind a secret door, and the entrance vault was only connected to that area 10:26:53 can't really do much to that, unless we want to completely remove secret doors 10:26:58 or at least random ones 10:28:05 Zaba: is there no chance to find such hidden entrances after the level is made? 10:28:48 well, technically you can, but I think that telling which cases are legitimate and which aren't would be too complicated. 10:30:41 okay 10:31:34 so the player has to spend ?mapping on the levels he thinks something is missing 10:31:48 but magic mapping doesn't map things behind secret doors these days, no? 10:31:49 could we make ?mapping show branch entries that are hidden? 10:31:52 ^ 10:32:13 I really don't see why not just change magic mapping back to showing things behind secret doors 10:32:33 I mean, there's got to be an alternative to just searching every somewhat likely wall 10:32:48 yeah, it's pretty surprising they don't show them, and it's hard to see a benefit in that behaviour 10:33:01 kilobyte, I remember that it was purposefully changed to that 10:33:14 kilobyte, nice work on delve, by the way 10:34:07 Zaba: right now delve can do only an empty level, I'd need to allow it so postprocess maps somehow 10:34:26 kilobyte, currently, all layouts that do postprocessing are special cases, and are called from _build_postvault_level 10:35:12 dpeg, Zaba: various knobs produce various layouts -- I temporarily enabled the full range so pressing &^R repeatedly can show the variety 10:35:16 kilobyte, simplest would be to add a tag (like 'dis') or just detect the branch and call delve from there, postponing a huge refactor of the whole system 10:35:23 i remember someone suggesting ?mapping should at least reveal secret doors, if not display the areas behind them 10:35:37 which would be nice, too 10:35:46 MarvinPA, yeah, would be good enough 10:36:18 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:36:26 not sure which variants do we want for Spider (I guess, 1,1 1,2 1,3 2,3) 10:36:31 Zaba: could work, yeah 10:36:32 would hopefully solve most of these issues but still have areas like tar:7 require some searching 10:36:44 sgiratch (L8 SpEn) (D:6) 10:36:46 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Client Quit] 10:37:52 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:45:06 -!- Letchik has joined ##crawl-dev 10:45:32 Is it only me or did webtiles stop working if firefox 6? 10:46:11 nevermind they just loaded very long because of torrents 10:50:01 dpeg: webs: I wonder, perhaps shallow water could be a better mechanism for them than traps? 10:51:16 kilobyte: shallow water that has a chance to go away each time you do something in it could be neat 10:51:20 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:51:23 though webs should of course affect flying things 10:52:04 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 10:52:07 sorry 10:52:12 well, a fly would just fly above a web :p 10:52:15 I can explain the ?mapping change. 10:52:33 ?mapping not showing everything is a boost to the T&D skill. 10:52:51 But of course missing some loot because you don't find the secret door is okay; missing a branch is not. 10:52:58 Hence ?mapping should show branch entries. 10:53:13 it doesn't really work out like that though since you still don't actually need any t&d to find secret doors 10:53:16 just turns and food 10:53:45 MarvinPA: yes 10:54:05 i guess ?mapping flood-fills from staircases though? so doing the same from branch entrances would still fix the issue 10:54:08 sometimes I wonder if we should have just removed all T&D, traps and secret doors back when we briefly discussed this. 10:57:27 what if T&D affected the contents of rooms? this is pretty radical, but would be way more interesting 10:59:00 so with high T&D you detect the valuable hidden treasure? 10:59:48 yes - or there are less monsters, or otherwise the kind of challenge or reward is different 11:01:14 there are some places where T&D matters, for example the ossuary where you're chased by mummies and running through a trap field 11:01:32 Eronarn: the idea is interesting 11:02:09 Less monsters would mean less XP, which makes the skill counterproductive. 11:02:22 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:02:32 RichardHawk: okay, so more treasure 11:02:44 RichardHawk: it's ok if a skill => less XP 11:02:47 see summoning 11:03:00 or stealth (because you can choose not to fight tough monsters) 11:03:18 Eronarn: Those two still leave you choice 11:03:36 You can go for the full xp reward despite having those skills 11:04:12 When would the contents of a room be determined? 11:04:17 so let T&D do it too? 'open this door carefully? y/n' 11:04:49 Eronarn: something I could imagine that you detect items like traps. Pling, and something's there. 11:04:53 presumably not until it's actually opened - by the dungeon layout changing, or a door being opened, or the player teleporting into it 11:05:14 Sorry Eronarn I don't really like that idea :( 11:06:02 dpeg: i think we should try and minimize players wanting to backtrack because their T&D skill went up, so it'd be good to have a solution that works with that 11:06:12 Eronarn: this wouldn't happen, of course 11:06:25 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 11:08:23 dpeg: i'm sure it would if the rewards for doing so were good enough :P 11:08:29 i already do it for stuff like digging-required vautls 11:08:57 I'd rather have locked doors than the current secret door implementation. You'd need enough skill to get in and get a message hinting at how close you are to the required level 11:09:07 maybe t&d skill could have a chance of reducing the severity of zot trap effects, for a less radical idea 11:09:12 there was the idea of loot inside chests 11:09:15 Eronarn: yes, need some explanation why you can't use T&D on old stuff 11:09:19 where you could see the chest, but not the loot inside it 11:09:23 Eronarn: perhaps someone else already took the stuff :) 11:09:32 those chests could then be locked 11:10:00 Nethack danger ALERT 11:10:08 get one chance to open the chest - do it wrong and you might get a trap instead, or (some of) the loot is destroyed 11:10:30 therefore you can wait until you have high T&D to open a chest, but this means forgoing the chance that it has loot in it 11:10:49 so you can't check it, wait a level, check it again, etc. - one shot only 11:10:52 Feels like we're just trying to invent stuff that makes T&D relevant... 11:11:03 ghallberg: that is what we're trying to do :P 11:11:05 ghallberg: what is the problem with that? 11:11:29 I hope there will be interesting trap planting for later but the ideas here are not all bad. 11:11:31 Just saying, maybe it doesn't deserve to exist :P 11:11:37 perhaps 11:11:47 dpeg: my experience in TOME is that trap planting is really tedious 11:11:51 and there it's even for time-limited traps 11:11:54 But yeah, ideas are always good. 11:12:00 I like chests personally 11:12:03 but I am reluctant to remove traps and secret doors, now that there's shafts and so many vaults made with secret doors 11:12:04 you end up planting it then trying to lure enemies over the trap 11:12:10 Eronarn: we could do it better 11:12:24 Eronarn: yes, I am aware of this trap 11:12:46 it used to be really bad in tome because one of the classes got a damaging trap + a knockback 11:12:50 it was so horrible to use it like that 11:13:14 Eronarn: the plan I have would make traps single use, and you _don't_ make them from stuff likes axes or bolts, you use wands 11:13:36 So you don't use traps to solve popcorn, you use it for the Big Stuff 11:13:41 dpeg: having some more spectacular traps would help 11:13:48 like 'electrified floor trap' or whatever 11:14:02 just firing wands at something would be boring though 11:14:04 Eronarn: I think we should get rid of the weapon traps (can keep them for vaults) 11:14:17 dying while exploration to a blade trap is a very disappointing death 11:14:20 yeah 11:14:25 i would agree with that, yeah 11:14:26 Eronarn: no no, it'd be more spectacular 11:14:31 MarvinPA: <3 11:14:44 since you'd plant traps rarely, it could be a little more elaborate 11:14:56 can choose the trigger (timed, stepped, activated) etc. 11:15:07 dpeg: it could be cool to have triggers where you have to do things in combat 11:15:20 like, a 'glyph trap', which is a circle with 6 pressure points around it 11:15:30 you have to hit the levers to turn it on 11:16:43 yes, for the traps I am thinking that if you spend a full wand of fire, it explodes in a full LOS radius 11:16:45 basically, stuff that means you'd have to be on screen for the trap to work 11:17:40 dpeg: some defensive traps could be good - like a 'firewall trap' which makes a big blaze cutting a room in half 11:17:55 yes, all kinds of things could be done 11:17:55 if they're just all hugely damaging it'd get repetitive 11:18:00 yes 11:18:08 gotta go now, see you later 11:20:02 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:21:50 Hive as a portal vault (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4454) by dpeg 11:22:16 gasp 11:22:40 woooo 11:23:33 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 263 seconds] 11:24:00 berserk bees <3 11:25:55 beeserk 11:27:19 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 11:27:29 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 11:27:41 paplaukes (L8 DsTm) (D:7) 11:33:01 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 11:33:19 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 11:41:57 Information Leak with auto-fight and unidentified ring of poison resistance (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4455) by Tenaya 11:44:28 Napkin: what's the latest blog post for? 11:45:19 generally an example, but more detailed info about the new skill-system 11:46:20 oh, it just seemed a bit weird because that thread has been there for a while already 11:52:05 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: bye] 12:00:44 Prono the Eclecticist (L18 VpSu) ASSERT(feat < NUM_FEATURES) in 'feature.cc' at line 24 failed on turn 88100. (Abyss) 12:00:58 Prono the Eclecticist (L18 VpSu) ASSERT(feat < NUM_FEATURES) in 'feature.cc' at line 24 failed on turn 88100. (Abyss) 12:07:05 Webtiles: screen stops refreshing occasionally (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4456) by Tonfa 12:14:11 -!- Guest17731 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:15:29 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 12:15:55 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest49904 12:28:21 -!- voker57_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:29:36 -!- voker57 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:56:47 -!- voker57_ has quit [Changing host] 12:56:47 -!- voker57_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:56:49 -!- bhaak is now known as neo 12:57:22 -!- neo is now known as Guest93061 12:57:50 -!- Guest93061 is now known as morpheus 12:58:02 -!- morpheus is now known as trinity 12:58:14 -!- trinity is now known as bhaak 12:59:15 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 13:03:06 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:03:24 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:13:21 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:20:44 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:29:43 I'll put the web stuff on the wiki. 13:29:53 but the wiki's already on the web! 13:29:59 :) 13:30:32 -!- hoody has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:30:50 recursive wbes 13:30:52 *webs 13:31:28 spiders that fire spiders at you 13:35:11 Eronarn: quite a few games have that (with the first spider being bigger and usually named queen or momma) 13:35:42 kilobyte: i suggested that demonic crawlers burst into spider swarms once i get those programmed 13:35:43 how they hatch and get big enough to do damage during the toss is a tricky question 13:38:57 lol 13:39:23 dpeg: spider's nest page on the wiki already has a number of suggestions about webs 13:41:01 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:47:12 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 13:47:25 going away for a couple hours, if you guys could decide which version of webs you like the most we could get them done tonight 14:00:40 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 14:00:47 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 14:14:12 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:21:07 mumra: I know, but jpeg and I had some specific ideas 14:21:16 I'll make a new, specific proposal. 14:21:32 yeah sorry i realised right after i wrote that, i probably missed half a conversation ;) 14:22:34 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 14:22:50 mumra: interesting discussion on the door god, btw 14:27:21 yeah, i thought it was an interesting theme, doors have can a lot of metaphysical meaning and they're all over the place in crawl ... 14:27:31 exactly 14:27:43 doors of perception, new beginnings, etc. ;) 14:28:04 I fully support the god, assuming we can fill the gaps, unless they come up with references to rock bands 14:28:12 oops 14:28:29 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:28:42 mumra: did you? :) 14:28:59 the doors named themselves after the book "doors of perception" 14:29:01 so yes i just did :) 14:29:11 mumra: wasn't aware of that! Where? 14:29:15 ah 14:29:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Doors_of_Perception 14:29:32 I'm going to call it the "revolving door god" then 14:30:32 actually i thought of an active ability called revolving door - allows you to move through a door to the opposite tile without actually opening it 14:31:08 :) 14:32:37 but it's not particularly more or less useful than seal door 14:32:40 yes 14:32:53 did you see my reply to your list? 14:33:07 we need to find something good about (or better than) detection 14:33:24 perhaps portals and shafts can always be detected 14:33:26 yes 14:33:36 it's still too similar to ashenzari imo, especially if it's passive 14:34:02 hm 14:34:11 what if shafts never triggered accidentally with the god? 14:35:25 i suppose that would give you the choice to use the shaft and gain piety 14:35:30 perhaps we have to combine the door stuff with something else 14:35:36 for example with an existing, boring god 14:37:24 yeah it's hard to do a lot with doors to give it enough depth 14:38:20 our boring (theme-wise) gods are Okawaru, Vehumet, Sif -- a connection didn't occur to me right now, but something could surely be done 14:38:35 perhaps a new god that combined the doors, e.g. "god of mechanics" 14:38:40 merge it with that sacrifice god idea you had 14:38:41 or that 14:38:51 Xiberia: tell us more, please 14:39:16 call the sacrifices stepping through some kind of gate 14:39:22 a sacrifice is required for passage 14:39:27 whatever the idea now was 14:39:37 I have no idea what you're talking about :) 14:40:03 i saw someone talking about a god idea in here a few days ago 14:40:05 Must've been someone else's idea, but sacrifices are good. 14:40:10 * dpeg approves of sacrifices. 14:40:16 a god requiring permanent sacrifices 14:40:20 for permanent gifts 14:40:27 like max hp 14:40:28 Xiberia: perhaps the one where you sacrifice maxhp in order to get abilities? 14:40:29 max mp 14:40:33 ah 14:40:34 exactly 14:40:50 that was Eronarn's idea for Kikubaaqudgha, which would now be a new god 14:40:56 ah 14:41:15 it's strongly about allies, though, not sure that'll go well with doors 14:41:29 But couldn't the god of wisdom care about doors? 14:42:09 Sif? actually that could work, i.e. doors of perception 14:42:17 maybe, but that would be in a more abstract sense 14:42:25 spiritual, perceptive doors etc 14:43:03 yep, but gods can also be very literal 14:43:09 hmm 14:44:31 what are the exact door mechanics you have in mind? 14:44:48 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2431 14:44:53 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 14:45:02 old console players (e.g. Nethackers) could understand the following glyph pun: closed doors and books are both represented by the + glyhp :) 14:45:24 lol 14:45:34 but alas, that'd be foreign for tiles players (and we've made books : now) 14:46:15 the thing is, i think the proposal has almost enough as it is; the piety gain is pretty good, it's just lacking perhaps one more ability 14:46:28 gods don't need an ability for every single piety level 14:46:35 yes, a self-sufficient door god could be possible 14:46:51 mumra: of course, but there's still something left open 14:46:52 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 14:47:04 why does the god give the walk ability, for example? 14:47:19 you're using monsters as doors :) 14:47:42 okay 14:47:50 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 14:49:02 -!- voker57_ is now known as voker57 14:50:49 of course, it wasn't my original proposal, i'm just adding my interpretation 14:51:27 that is fine 14:51:41 mumra: the web proposal on the wiki is yours? 14:52:05 yes 14:52:09 one of them, at least 14:52:11 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:52:54 I am deleting the whole section and add a replacement. Please read it afterwards and comment. 14:53:01 ok 14:53:54 dpeg: other ideas for door god; open grate, detect door/stair mimic, friendly door (turns door into a pet) 14:54:17 no pets, please, too many gods use them 14:54:33 door mimics are a good idea, though 14:54:34 well, a stationary door that only attacked monsters walking through it would be quite different 14:54:40 more like conjure flame than a summon 14:54:44 true 14:54:53 Voracious Door ability? 14:55:04 :) 14:56:54 Summon Door Mimic 14:57:18 that's basically what i meant by "friendly door" 14:59:34 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:07:58 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 15:11:03 mumra: what do you think of the Hellspider unique? 15:12:20 Does it have Phase Shift? 15:12:57 it is undead (keeps coming back after death) 15:13:06 attacks on each Spider level 15:13:15 Borispider 15:13:40 after being killed, acquires a resistance (if player used fire, then rF etc.) 15:13:52 what if killed via physical? 15:13:54 sounds interesting - definitely slightly stealing Boris's gimmick tho 15:13:56 does it get rAxe or whatever? 15:14:04 ais523: increased AC or EV 15:14:16 could be a nightmare which is the intention i guess :) 15:14:45 There is a shmup bz Linley Henzell called Hellspider :) 15:15:16 hmm, typoing of z for y is a little curious; German keyboard? or not on one when you expected to be? 15:15:20 Transdimentional Hellspider? 15:15:59 ais523: yes. I also happen to type the web stuff on a German keyboard that for reason thinks it is a US keyboard (while this one is a properly German keyboard) 15:16:05 dtsund: yes 15:16:09 ah, I see 15:16:15 That's why I asked about Phase Shift 15:16:17 ais523: I have a german keyboard actually, but I haven't gotten that wrong yet :P 15:16:44 dpeg: My keyboard is german but thinks it's swedish... luckily. 15:17:25 the name Hellspider sounds more like a regular (tough) monster than a unique 15:17:31 ghallberg: on my wife's computer there is some key combination that switches to US layout -- I don't know what it is and sometimes trigger it. Cannot go back :) 15:18:09 dpeg: It's probably Alt+Shift, it's possible to turn it off in the control panel (assuming windows) 15:18:22 Somewhere under Language/keybord or some such 15:18:25 dpeg: left alt + left shift? 15:18:27 ghallberg: thank you! 15:18:28 yep 15:18:30 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:18:40 Hehe, happened to me when I was on windows too :P 15:18:55 And I help people at school with it now and then. 15:18:57 I've even used it deliberately, mostly to reverse its effect when accidentally used by other people 15:19:16 * dpeg shakes fist towards Redmond. 15:19:21 It's wierd how so few people konw it, even in the CS-department. 15:19:27 Stupid feature. 15:19:36 CS departments are normally sensible enough to turn it off 15:19:47 I can't remember whether I learnt it at school, or in an engineering department 15:20:02 A surprisingly prominent key combination given that it should be an obscure command. 15:20:16 it's not even alt-shift-/something/, just alt-shift 15:20:23 dpeg: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=27740#p27740 <-- I've read that post about half a dozen times now and still feel like I'm missing something. 15:20:37 Could I ask what you mean about loot reducing choices? 15:20:51 dtsund: it's the one about branch ends? 15:20:55 Yah 15:21:27 dtsund: suppose you get ten good items on D:1. That'd make matters easier, but remove a number of decisions you'd have to face otherwise. 15:21:56 Where to go, what to buy, how to improvise, which consumables to use for that, which god could help out etc. 15:22:37 wouldn't it just make more of those options viable? 15:23:06 That is the optimistic point of view. Mine is more negative. 15:23:17 Consider the Nethack player who gets a number of early wishes. 15:23:24 Does it make the game richer or poorer? 15:23:42 it depends on what their reaction is 15:23:54 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:23:55 if they're just trying to win, it makes it relatively trivial, because it increases the number of viable options so much 15:24:10 if they react to it by, say, going on a speedrun, it can make it uniquely interesting 15:24:15 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 15:24:17 No item in Crawl is anywhere near as good as DSM, anyway 15:24:26 as NetHack's SDSM, you mean? 15:24:34 I'd have to agree with that 15:24:35 SDSM/GDSM 15:24:37 ais523: but you need to hands behind your back to justify the early wish 15:24:59 Crawl loot is less good than a Nethack wish but if you hand out many items, it comes close. 15:25:36 The other thing that confuses me is that you raise issue with loot removing choices, but then endorse another plan that much more directly removes choices 15:26:09 say you find a 0:3 /oW early; that's 7 wishes, practically 6 as early, you're going to use one to recharge the wand. that gives interesting choices in its own (would you wish for a tin of green dragon meat, for instance? there's quite a judgement call there) 15:26:10 dtsund: please explain 15:26:19 and it doesn't really trivialise the game because you play faster to make up for it 15:26:22 Rune lock removes the choice to go deeper early. 15:26:31 ais523: you can definitely see it like that, in my opinion it kills the game. 15:26:38 just like driving, adding safety features to a car makes people drive faster 15:26:43 You can't choose to do Vaults early, Hall of Blades early, late Dungeon early 15:27:16 dtsund: yes, but the choice removed triggers a number of new choices: which rune to get? The branch ends may be hard, so the next question is how to prepare and what consumables to spend. 15:28:00 * dtsund finds D:27 much scarier than the early branch ends and never understands why people do the former first 15:28:13 dtsund: For example, you may do Orc in order to see more shops. 15:28:33 I basically do that anyway. 15:28:41 Orc's my next stop after Lair. 15:28:46 dtsund: the idea might be too radical, and perhaps we'll have to mitigate it later. But we know what we're doing here. 15:28:47 dpeg: let's see, is this a fair description of your opinions? (I don't want to misunderstand them and argue in the wrong direction as a result.) "The game should ideally only just be possible with perfect play, and imperfect play should need luck to compensate for it; making it easier than that would reduce the number of strategic decisions that needed to be made, and make decisions irrelevant, because even making the 'wrong' decision would still 15:28:48 allow a player to win without suffering the consequences of their mistake" 15:29:04 ais523: no, that is not correct at all. 15:29:14 good, I was hoping I'd seen it wrong 15:29:17 There is a lot of leeway for mistakes, otherwise I had no choice to ever win. 15:29:38 (I am playing sloppy and very uninformed, I never use the knowledge bots, for example.) 15:30:17 is it entirely incorrect even in principle, or is the general idea right but the quantities wrong (e.g., allowing a certain proportion of bad play, or whatever)? 15:30:31 Of course, imperfect play comes at a price, mostly using up consumables. If your game is not rich enough (randarts, resistances etc.) and you perform too poorly, then you can easily lose from that. Someone better would have prevailed. 15:30:52 ah, OK, so the idea is that consumables are a finite resource that complements for mistakes, and luck is another? 15:30:59 sort of, yes 15:31:07 if you relax the conditions, it becomes right, I think 15:31:17 yep, I think I understand your point of view now 15:31:23 You can have a game which is so lucky, that good finds practically win it for you. 15:31:26 I don't mind that. 15:31:48 There are also games so poor that most players will get lost very early. Better players will go longer, and a master may win. 15:32:06 This is part of the natural variance, am I happy with both extremes. 15:32:55 In order to win a normal game, I'd expect some skill, which is about what you said. 15:33:12 ais523 and dtsund: what's your goals? I can imagine they're different... 15:33:33 ais523's goal is to make a more user-friendly NetHack. 15:33:43 dpeg: at the moment, it's just to understand the Crawl philosophy; Crawl sounds on paper like the sort of game I'd like to play, but I don't enjoy it, and I'm trying to work out why that is 15:33:58 and whether I have the wrong approach or expectations or just a complete clash of philosophy 15:34:07 My goal is to make a game fun for all skill levels. 15:34:17 This is fine, but of course I think that Nethack misses balance completely. It is almost the opposite of ours. Which is good in its own way, who needs twenty clones of the same roguelike? 15:34:23 I am also making a more user-friendly version of NetHack, indeed, but I appreciate that not everyone would enjoy it 15:34:27 I'm not trying to clone NetHack. 15:35:05 I'm trying to make a game that's easier for beginners to get to play to a basic winning level, but also let experts challenge themselves more when they wish to. 15:35:55 A game has to set a skill level (i.e. whether it is easy or hard), unless you're offering options. Traditionally, Crawl has been hard, and has therefore drawn developers who like it hard. This is a perfectly subjective affair, and I can completely understand folks who are put off by the difficulty. Personally, I love it. 15:36:17 Currently, DCSS has a *little* bit of that, with experts able to challenge themselves with extended endgame, but the problem is that it's just endgame. 15:36:23 dtsund: on the forum, there's a player who stated he wants to win fully unspoiled. I am curious how he fares. 15:36:24 You have to play through the entire main game to reach it. 15:36:38 I suppose part of the reason I'm making Ace easier is that other NetHack forks tend to make the game harder, so it gives a larger range of difficulties 15:36:49 dtsund: well, you can challenge yourself by species/background/god choice, too. 15:37:54 dpeg: Yeah, but the game seems designed largely with the intent of having extended be the most fleshed-out optional challenge. 15:37:59 The variance among this set of choice is enormous. This is also good, although sometimes players complain that different species or gods have different power levels. 15:38:24 If there's a single god that's EZ-mode, I'm fine with that, though two would probably be too much. 15:38:27 they probably /should/ have different power levels, right? 15:38:31 dtsund: not sure I agree. You think that the Vaults and Elf ends are too easy? 15:38:54 dpeg: No? I don't think I said that... 15:38:57 I can easily imagine having an easy-mode caster and fighter god, race, and class; such has happened by accident several times in Crawl before 15:39:00 I meant Swamp/Snake ends. 15:39:21 dtsund: well, it'll be harder in vanilla Crawl with the rune lock. 15:39:32 Different power levels are good, but each race, class and god needs to have a reason to pick it. Old Ogres were just bad at everything and thus completely uninteresting. 15:39:37 I dive straight to those runes after Lair/Orc/Hive, just because I usually find it the easiest way to proceed. 15:40:09 I just turn back if there's something particularly nasty, like Boris. 15:40:31 RichardHawk: yes, I agree that having something only to be a challenge is not very attractive (of course, some players liked exactly that aspect). Currently, Xom is in such a position among gods. 15:41:10 the issue with Xom is that randomly hurting the player is much worse than randomly helping the player, for temporary effects (for permanent ones I'm not so sure) 15:41:30 as players need to prepare for the worst rather than the best case, generally speaking 15:41:45 ais523: yes, we're aware of that. It can be repaired, of course. jpeg has a plan. 15:41:54 indeed 15:42:06 Xom is extremely deadly early on - you just can't deal with a swarm of 3s or animated hostile main weapon on a CK reliably. 15:42:09 New Xom used tension, but only a little. We can do much better. 15:42:32 RichardHawk: I once had Xom banish me from D:2 on two consecutive games. 15:42:38 RichardHawk: yes. It is okay if he does horrible things, but then he should also help you out of peril. You're his TV program, after all. 15:43:05 !tell galehar I'm liking the threat display :) 15:43:06 ghallberg: OK, I'll let galehar know. 15:43:29 Threat display's implemented in trunk? 15:44:11 yes 15:44:22 minmay was unhappy about it, but many players like it 15:45:02 dpeg: Just as a note of interest, CL 0.2's going to have a soft barrier in D below Lair; most players can ignore it, but allruners will want to accomplish as much as possible before going that deep. 15:45:13 dpeg: unhappy about its existence, or about the details? 15:45:23 ais523: the details 15:45:35 he says it's not good enough, but I believe he is just expecting too much 15:45:39 dtsund: it locks you out of allruning unless you go do something massively difficult there, right? 15:45:42 dtsund: yes, you told us the other day 15:45:51 Oh, yeah, I remember now. 15:45:52 dtsund: but I think you put too much emphasis on all-runers 15:45:56 ais523: Abyss trip! 15:45:59 they're only a tiny fraction of the player base 15:46:21 dpeg: You can make the game harder without allruning. Just open the Pandoora, and try to win that way. 15:46:34 I think the game is hard enough :) 15:47:04 well, Light is easier, so presumably it's to bring the game back to DCSS standards 15:47:30 Also, I want to make allrune games more interesting throughout the game, not just in that tiny portion called the extended endgame. 15:47:42 as far as I see it, all DCSS versions are easier than 4b26 (the version I started with and won a few games in) 15:48:17 Players are allowed to waste scrolls of identify on evocables that need not be identified. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4458) by smock 15:48:17 After gaining religion while wearing an unidentified amulet of faith, no removal warning (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4457) by smock 15:48:40 ais523: Actually, current plan is to make opening the Pandoora result in a bit harder than current Stone Soup. I'm not entirely satisfied with this, though, so I might have a second door. Maybe opening the first one corrupts the Hive, resulting in a vault with a second Pandoora in it. 15:49:00 dtsund: I will be disappointed in you if you don't implement the bee castle you promised me 15:49:01 In order to allrune, you'd need a ?acquirement from behind each of them... 15:49:12 also, make it !oCureMut the second time 15:49:22 ...no, I don't like that idea. 15:49:27 ah, OK 15:49:44 Because then I'd need to make !curemut not spawn early, and I really really don't want to do that. 15:50:04 I think it is very imporant to add new content for the early game. We have very many players who don't see more of it, love the game and keep playing it. 15:51:04 In Light, they should get further if they don't open the Pandooras. Especially as, with the reduced length, simple random luck will have the potential to carry them through a larger portion of it. 15:51:20 Reduced influence of the law of large numbers, and whatnot. 15:51:37 dtsund: oh, I see, you're removing random generation of the key items 15:51:43 although then, you remove the satisfaction of one day reaching the later stages 15:51:47 yes, reducing length is good --we have started doing this some version ago, and we'll keep going (even if the pace is slow) 15:52:04 BirdoPrey the Grappler (L14 TrTm) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_SHOPS) in 'shopping.cc' at line 2094 failed on turn 26137. (Abyss) 15:52:09 mumra: I'm not going to remove challenge *completely*, y'know. :) 15:52:12 BirdoPrey the Grappler (L14 TrTm) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_SHOPS) in 'shopping.cc' at line 2094 failed on turn 26137. (Abyss) 15:52:43 it took me a very long time to even see Zot, and it was only last week i finally explored hell and pan and got all the runes. you have no idea how satisying that was :) 15:52:45 Ideally, the combat should still be at least a bit harder than a typical NetHack game. 15:52:57 -!- BirdoPrey has joined ##crawl-dev 15:52:59 mumra: when we evaluated the survey, we wondered why so many players stick with a game where they don't expect to ever win. You'd think they move on to something else. I think the difficulty keeps them coming back (you see the same effect with players who can get a few runes, but never won, for example.) 15:53:12 mumra: I do know. I died twice due to aborted Gehenna runs before I finally allruned. 15:53:18 BirdoPrey the Grappler (L14 TrTm) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_SHOPS) in 'shopping.cc' at line 2094 failed on turn 26137. (Abyss) 15:53:23 dtsund: if you make it easier than Nethack, I'd be very upset :) 15:53:26 er 15:53:34 can someone delete my trunk save please :p 15:53:50 definitely. but then i've been playing games since the 1980's, when you'd never expect to win, just see how much further you could get each time. 15:54:08 The goal here would be 15:54:15 dpeg: on the other hand, isn't Crawl intended to be easier for unspoiled players than NetHack? 15:54:19 most modern games are pretty boring because you expect to complete them in a few days :) 15:54:19 R18 (L2 CeHe) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1060 failed. (D:2) 15:54:23 because there's so much more to work out in NetHack if unspoiled 15:54:25 Getting 'further' would include ' 15:54:28 whoops 15:54:43 mumra: I have no issue with that if the game has good replayability after being completed 15:54:55 Getting 'further' would include "Okay, now I can win without opening a Pandoora. Now how far can I get opening one of them...?" 15:54:59 ais523: I am very confident unspoiled Crawl is magnitudes easier than unspoiled Nethack. 15:55:15 BirdoPrey: sorry, got to wait until kilobyte or Napkin are around. 15:55:22 dpeg: I think so too, but I wouldn't be surprised if we had contradictory bases for our opinions 15:55:23 BirdoPrey the Grappler (L14 TrTm) ASSERT(t != NON_ENTITY && t < MAX_SHOPS) in 'shopping.cc' at line 2094 failed on turn 26137. (Abyss) 15:55:30 oops 15:55:42 eh, ok 15:55:46 i wanted to play with the new fe book 15:55:47 ais523: totally - there are just very few modern games with any replayability - open world games and multiplayer FPS are the only ones that really qualify 15:55:47 BirdoPrey: 10 char names are permitted. Time for BirdoPrey2? 15:55:56 BirdoPrey: you can delete it yourself 15:56:04 Napkin: i tried, nothing happens when i press D 15:56:11 CAO? 15:56:21 mumra: yes, that is an old approach. Shmups have the same, and I always loved it. (Note how permadeath is crucial for shmups -- the ones with saving suck.) Commercial games teach players to think completely differently, but the appeal from permadeath is so big that we draw new players all the time. 15:56:26 or CDO? 15:56:41 cao 15:56:44 Oooooh, that's a mean vault! :D 15:57:04 dpeg: my opinion on permadeath is that it's mostly only interesting because of the sorts of other mechanics it makes available, /but/ those ones are really important to roguelikes and positive for games in general 15:57:18 ais523: well, we _have_ unspoiled winners for reals, not just legends :P 15:57:23 as in, permadeath is not fun for its own sake, but because it allows you to do things that depend on the lack of segmentation 15:57:36 ais523: of course, it depends on the other context. 15:57:45 dpeg: there's at least one pretty reliable report of an unspoiled NetHack win (not Ellora); it's a matter of quanitity rather than anything else 15:57:47 My intent is for something like Super Metroid. With enough determination, beginners will get good enough to get the most basic win more quickly, but there will be a lot of room to expand upward in challenge. 15:57:54 aid523: in my opinion it increases the immersion - games without permadeath are effectively "god mode" the entire time 15:57:54 notably, the player in question did a lot of wizmoding to work out the mechanics 15:58:12 is it 0.9 or git, BirdoPrey? 15:58:16 Also, unspoiled AceHack will probably be a lot easier than unspoiled NetHack. 15:58:20 ais523: that was not necessary for the unspoiled Crawl wins. 15:58:33 dpeg: indeed, although I think it might have made them more enjoyable 15:58:34 dtsund: that is very good 15:58:34 trunk 15:58:37 wizmode surely counts as spoiling yourself? 15:58:45 mumra: no, it just allows you to test things more quickly 15:58:58 Seriously, who makes all these neat vaults? 15:59:07 if there are things that can only be tested in the late game, if you aren't wizmoding or xmoding or whatever, you have to go die repeatedly on them to figure out how they work 15:59:17 or be lucky enough to survive the consequences 15:59:18 mumra: that's a debate -- but I wouldn't be happy if players had to research like that. They should be able to win from just observing within ordinary games (and they can). 15:59:35 ais523: Which, currently, is how you learn a lot of things in Crawl, really. 15:59:35 ghallberg: you can look through the des files. The author is noted in almost all cases. 15:59:41 Cool. 15:59:45 ghallberg: you're on CAO or CDO? 15:59:53 For the record, this was a Xom Vault. 15:59:58 When I got oneshotted from full health by Frederick, I very quickly learned not to mess with him. 16:00:04 *at level 27 16:00:04 dpeg: I'm on CDO, but I died to the vault :P 16:00:10 ah 16:00:25 OOOH a wand, shiny! *Xom laughs* 16:00:36 oh, THAT vault ;) 16:00:53 What happen'? 16:01:08 dtsund: An ogre with a GSC spawned behind me... 16:01:30 Not unfairly, I had a few squares to manouver in. 16:01:35 ghallberg: I won 4b26 mostly unspoiled (there were strategy tips available, but I never read anything about weapon, monster or spell specifics). I died in every new branch end and several times in Zot. You can say it is wasted time, but it is a game, after all. The current devteam is happy with the situation. 16:01:40 that's by 7hm i think 16:01:52 yes, it is in the traps folder 16:02:06 dpeg: That wasn't aimed at me right? 16:02:15 true! Was for dtsund 16:03:23 I don't like vaults like that, simply because most players don't choose to enter them or not enter them. 16:03:24 please try, BirdoPrey, if i deleted the correct file 16:03:30 k 16:03:31 Autoexplore just carries them straight in. 16:03:37 thats it, thanks 16:05:09 dtsund: he had the wand, which was an escape option 16:05:34 What was the wand? 16:05:36 Tele? 16:05:43 it might have been 16:05:45 The problem with *that* is you don't know what it is. 16:05:48 ahahah, I'm so bad at this! 16:05:49 It is like a small puzzle. As long as we don't go overboard with them, I think they're fine. 16:05:56 dtsund: Was digging actully 16:05:59 Given a Xom vault, the player has to expect random effects. 16:06:36 doors with warnings on should possibly be used more often 16:06:56 yes, they're relatively new and many old vaults could benefit from them 16:06:57 as they reduce the need for players to memorize every vault 16:07:38 Has the monster warning made it into the latest binary download? 16:07:51 don't think so 16:07:58 we don't build nightlies anymore 16:08:02 :( 16:08:10 Napkin: does CDO run trunk again? 16:08:16 yes 16:08:19 * dtsund likes looking at new features using tiles 16:08:20 dtsund: use that 16:08:25 kilobyte reminded me this morning 16:09:53 And webtiles, for me, feels somewhat like I'm pinging a server on the moon 16:10:06 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:10:21 dtsund: that should only be about a second's round trip 16:10:41 yeah, we desperate need someone hosting a webtiles server in NA 16:10:44 Indeed. 16:10:48 *desperately 16:10:49 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:10:51 at some point, someone will set up an American server 16:11:06 -!- cesium has joined ##crawl-dev 16:11:18 but, noone (apart from wensley) volunteered yet 16:11:40 Napkin: will come... webtiles become more and more popular. 16:11:46 (and his 0.5ghz with 200gb hd was too weak, unfortunately) 16:11:55 At some point someone with the tools will step up. 16:12:12 true 16:13:44 just a matter of time 16:14:09 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 16:14:10 We can make it easier for them by having all the stuff ready they need to have (your scripts and whatnot) and by telling about it. 16:14:14 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:14:36 maybe we should mention the need as a side-line in the next posting about webtiles... 16:14:46 webtiles currently has no scripts 16:14:50 good idea 16:15:02 manually maintained 16:15:13 where is the webtiles server based? 16:15:17 hence, no trunk/git yet ;) 16:15:22 Napkin: a guideline "What do I need to have and what to know if I want to set up a tiles server?" 16:16:17 this month it took 220gb of traffic 16:17:02 ram usage of crawl is not so high anymore, cpu usage still is though 16:17:20 mumra: done 16:17:31 !tell kilobyte New web trap proposal on the wiki. 16:17:32 dpeg: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 16:17:34 -!- blueDave2 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:17:49 mumra: Germany, Falkenstein 16:18:00 -!- blueDave has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:18:13 -!- blueDave2 is now known as blueDave 16:18:26 ok - it's semi-slow here in the uk, but not too bad 16:18:34 i notice players i spec are much faster 16:18:42 dpeg: having a look now 16:18:43 * dpeg recommends the console. 16:18:49 actually, setting up webtiles with stable version is quite easy 16:18:50 :) 16:19:13 Napkin: we should somewhere say this. Might make it easier for someup to come around. 16:19:17 Napkin: i do have a dedicated server in the uk ... 16:19:40 well, up until your router the ping is 24ms, mumra 16:20:04 which cannot be considered bad 16:20:42 ok ... maybe it's just my crappy router. the network cable keeps reporting disconnected so i'm on wireless :( 16:21:20 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 16:21:44 i live in germany with about 400km distance and have 16ms to the server - and it (at least to me) feels quite fast 16:21:55 so, you should be able to get more speed out of it, mumra 16:25:19 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:26:45 Random thought of the day: Assassin background seems a bit unfocused. 16:26:56 Stabbing and ranged don't go so well together. 16:27:24 ghallberg: either you throw or you stab. 16:27:40 Eh? You sneak up and stab what you can. If things wake up you can blow needles at them. 16:27:42 dpeg: But if you stab then you should probably play enchanter? 16:27:43 A decision you make for every sleeping monster you encounter. 16:27:54 Guess so 16:28:04 curare safely gets you through the early game 16:28:08 ghallberg: That's why I gave assassins sleeping needles. 16:28:16 dpeg: if webs are implemented as a trap, should they still be disarmable like normal traps? 16:28:31 dtsund: Sounds like a nice idea 16:29:07 -!- Twinge has quit [] 16:29:25 Also, the average number of monsters you can nuke with curare is only nine... 16:29:41 Er, the starting curare, I mean. 16:29:45 dtsund: that is fine. A very limited, strong resource. 16:30:03 You also get the choice of trying to preserve them until you get enchant scrolls 16:30:16 mumra: ah, I forgot to say something about that. Yes, you can try to destroy the traps, imo. 16:30:22 Enchantment doesn't influence the mulch rate quite enough for that to seriously matter 16:30:26 Early orc priests are SO unfair btw 16:31:01 dtsund: what? 16:31:03 -!- BlastHardcheese has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:31:07 ghallberg: how early? 16:31:22 dpeg: D:3-4 ish 16:31:38 Before orcs become popcorn. 16:31:59 Smite does so much damage and it's pretty much impossible to focus them down. 16:32:04 dpeg: the idea of weighting by adjacent walls is also exactly how i was thinking, so you get them collecting in corners, corridors, etc. 16:33:08 dpeg: If you get enchant weapon *right away* and use it on the needles, you'll have ~12 uses. 16:33:24 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 16:33:27 This assumes optimal dropping and that you'll never need to spend needles before you have that identified 16:34:16 mumra: yes, I think both of these are useful: corridoors makes it more risky to just attack or flee; corners means that the open is better -- of course also more dangerous 16:34:32 ??mulching 16:34:34 mulching[1/3]: The base chance of breakage is 1/X. X is: 3 for curare, darts. 4 for stones, arrows, bolts. 6 for non-curare needles. 10 for javelins. 25 for large rocks. Throwing nets only take damage when struggled against and are destroyed at -8. Other thrown things such as hand axes aren't technically missiles, and won't break. 16:34:44 ??mulching[2] 16:34:44 mulching[2/3]: Enchanted projectiles get an extra shot at avoiding destruction: ench / (3+ench) chance of survival. Flame- or frost-branded missiles have twice the chance of breakage. 16:34:53 dpeg: also, might Crypt be even more appropriate than Vaults, especially with incorporeal monsters having immunity? 16:35:13 mumra: hey, I meant vaults, not Vaults :) 16:35:21 ah lol 16:35:23 yes, Crypt could also get its share of webs 16:40:38 mumra: will you comment on the wiki? (untrapping webs, Crypt, perhaps more :) 16:47:25 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 16:54:46 dpeg: done ! 16:54:58 thank you 16:56:14 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 16:57:21 -!- BlastHardcheese has joined ##crawl-dev 17:00:48 does anyone know why today I received a link to this old forum thread: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2045 in my rss feed for cdo's dev log? 17:01:04 Napkin? 17:02:25 the idea was to link to the forum topic with the explanation of the new skill-system without xp-pool 17:02:37 but seems to confuse more than it does good - removed. 17:03:30 mumra: I think the main difference with cobwebs is visibility vs trap. I like the fact that T&D will matter in Spider. The comments are really good, thanks again. I should give more support to the Hellspider, it is such a good idea. Now if we could make sure that players cannot avoid it... 17:03:52 Hellspider? 17:03:57 yesyes! 17:04:02 btw, what about a rolling boulder beetle unique Gregor? 17:04:10 I am /totally/ for that. 17:04:15 slitherfritz the Archmage (L27 NaWz) ASSERT(feat_is_solid(feat)) in 'beam.cc' at line 1114 failed on turn 167715. (Dis:5) 17:04:17 Gregor? 17:04:23 Kafka 17:04:29 ah lol 17:04:51 Als Gregor Samsa eines Morgens aus unruhigen Traeumen erwachte, fand er sich in seinem Bett zu einem ungeheueren Ungeziefer verwandelt! 17:05:06 due: the hellspider is a unique which comes up on every Spider level (like Boris). Every time you kill it, it becomes better at what you killed it with. 17:05:06 I'm sure I misspelt bits of that. The first clause was from memory, the second from the text. 17:05:07 give him german speech! 17:05:21 due: this is perfect -- you speak German? 17:05:28 dpeg: No, not at all :) 17:05:32 wow 17:05:47 but the Hellspider first! 17:05:59 (I used it as a quote for something ages back, so the first bit always stuck in my head.) 17:05:59 dpeg: What happens if you avoid the Hellspider and advance without killing it? 17:06:05 due: the jokee behind that one is that Linley has a shmup called Transdimensional Hellspider :) 17:06:12 Ahhh. 17:06:15 dtsund: exactly, that is the question 17:06:17 Then I'm for the name. 17:06:22 Also, it should get Phase Shift, because Transdimensional 17:06:31 Otherwise I was going to complain about how familiar it was to hellephant. 17:06:44 do we still have Phase Shift -- wasn't this is a Div spell? 17:06:44 But with that pedigree! 17:06:51 :) 17:06:51 Tloc 17:06:56 ah, moved 17:06:57 Foresight -> Phase Shift, TLoc now. 17:06:57 it used to be forescry, I think, yes 17:06:59 It *was* Div. 17:07:02 Forescry, yeah. 17:07:05 Forescry. 17:07:06 right right 17:07:09 It was the lone survivor of the school. 17:07:12 I think Foresight must be a Pokemon move, then. 17:07:33 rod of discovery survived, although I'm not sure if it's still in 17:07:34 My son likes to shout Hyperbeam at random! 17:07:41 haha 17:07:49 but in german is it still "hyperbeam"? 17:07:50 But since the Phase Shift flavor is that you're phasing between planes/dimensions, it'd be a good fit 17:07:59 dtsund: yes, absolutely 17:08:07 just need to find a way to deal with the pesky playes 17:08:45 Stairs are locked until the Hellspider is killed, no shaft traps? 17:08:52 dpeg: could make it so that all downward staircases in spider are contained within vaults, and the spider will always appear in the first such vault you find. schroedinger's spider 17:09:15 I thought the idea was not forcing the player to interact with it? 17:09:23 you can run from it :) 17:09:25 Also, we can move it across levels if you fail to kill it. 17:09:33 i think the resurrecting theme is too similar to boris. how about, with it being transdimensional, it already exists on all levels at once? 17:09:37 It can still re-appear on the next level. 17:09:40 due: just like various bosses in NetHack? 17:09:50 ^ due just said what i was saying 17:09:53 ais523: I've played NetHack once, basically; so potentially. 17:10:09 it's mostly done only with Rodney, and with certain major deons 17:10:10 *demons 17:10:28 Better than existing across all levels at once, each version of it is merely a reflection of the whole, found on the last level. 17:10:30 and it's technically implemented by putting them on the list of monsters that have taken stairs whenever you leave a level, but not marking a destination 17:10:37 due: I like that 17:10:48 perhaps you have to kill it all five times to get the XP ? 17:10:52 (Which is how it /learns/. However, it is not an illusion per se, because Mara.) 17:10:53 hmm, a "hellspider larva" or whatever on each of the main levels, which is still pretty nasty 17:11:00 he lives in the rune vault, so either you fight him early and make him stronger later, or you run away for an easier rune get 17:11:02 and the Hellspider itself on the last level? 17:11:03 ais523: (Y) 17:11:44 Wensley: I'm not ... too sure I like that. Potential for people to ninja the rune and then come back to fight it later for the EXP is annoying. 17:11:52 hmm 17:12:03 perhaps you could put the rune in the Hellspider's inventory 17:12:08 the main one 17:12:09 Oh, and also the mechanic could lead to tedious kill methods 17:12:18 the hell spider is the rune and you only get it by killing it five times 17:12:22 ais523: Solution: the hellspider /IS/ the rune. 17:12:23 haha 17:12:26 Like, nuking it with fire until near dead, then axing it the rest of the way so it won't gain rF. 17:12:29 dpeg: Damn you. :D 17:12:32 and if you reach Spider:5 skipping some of the larvae, they arrive on Spider:5 along with it 17:12:36 dtsund: I think that's acceptable 17:12:42 \o/ 17:12:54 because next time it'll be harder to axe, so you'll need a new strategy anyway :P 17:12:58 to help it in its last defence of the, um, chitin rune? 17:13:00 dpeg: You do realise that we'll have to call it the transdimensional rune? 17:13:10 Gossamer rune 17:13:14 -!- blueDave has quit [] 17:13:16 I think that was the planned name 17:13:23 dtsund: no, it should be interesting: the first few times you try to use non-standard killing methods, e.g. wand of fire, wand of cold. This is part of the appeal to me. 17:13:43 (for an axe man) 17:13:44 Then the question becomes how to make this obvious to new players 17:13:57 dtsund: oh, that is possible 17:14:09 Death message? 17:14:10 presumably it becomes obvious as soon as you kill it the first time? if it has some message as it dies 17:14:16 MarvinPA_: <3 17:14:22 The hellspider looks like a rune the first time you see it 17:14:26 then it transforms 17:14:34 Maybe put something in its description 17:14:37 ah, the rune thing 17:14:38 when you want to pick it up 17:15:04 And then you're in melee range with it? 17:15:08 yes! 17:15:14 Casters would want to plink runes at range 17:15:25 it is not the Cheesecakespider, after all 17:15:48 dtsund: you only have to do it for the first Hellspider, it's the easiest one 17:16:02 ...fair enough. 17:16:17 Does it gain attack power each time? Like, killing it with fire makes it spit fire? 17:16:48 dtsund: and, after the first acquaintanceship between and Mr Hellspider, you know that you can prepare before picking it up 17:16:55 original idea was gaining resists ... but gaining attacks sounds more fun (and more obvious to the player what's giong on) 17:16:55 dtsund: open for debate 17:17:16 mumra: the new incarnations could state what's new to them 17:17:27 nice 17:17:29 "It looks bigger." "It looks more fiery." etc. 17:17:54 Hellspider spawn? 17:17:54 So if killed with fire, it'd get rF and a fire attack. 17:18:06 what if i kill it with IOOD ? 17:18:07 "The master hellspider spawns a new defender!" 17:18:29 mumra: it gets a ranged attack? 17:18:41 and reflection? 17:18:45 perhaps, yes 17:19:04 what if I kill it with summons? 17:19:07 * dpeg thinks romantically of the boss fights in R-Type. 17:19:09 or confuse it and it falls into lava? 17:19:19 ais523: well, many little Hellspiderlets. 17:19:24 (oh, the latter case has been fixed) 17:19:39 it's a lot of work, but it would make a very interesting threat, in my opinion 17:19:39 what if it dies from multiple sources of poison (say, enslaved greater nagas)? 17:19:42 are you going to special-case every way of killing the hellspider? 17:19:56 monqy: no, can resort to a default in many cases 17:20:02 just bigger and meaner 17:20:13 what about if it dies to an invocation (I'm thinking "Bend Space", but maybe others could be problematic too) 17:20:14 there really aren't that many special cases 17:20:26 Wensley: there's always the odd way to kill it 17:20:49 so we treat all the common ones, and use some default (perhaps with randomisation) for the rest 17:20:58 dpeg: I mean that, aside from drowning or banishing, damage is damage. fire damage it gains resists, physical damage it gains ac and ev, etc 17:21:06 yes 17:21:24 also will there at least be a way for ninjas to deal with it? I do think that it is a valid playstyle 17:21:25 AC and EV don't work against all physical sources 17:21:27 banishing is not clever -- good luck looking for the abyssical hellspider 17:21:40 once it's working we can make it more exotic... like, say, if you kill it with summons, it could gain warding! and so on and so on, over several releases 17:21:47 Wensley: yes 17:21:57 * Improved the Hellspider. 17:22:02 to be on every changelog! 17:22:23 also I hope you don't hurt specialists too much 17:22:41 monqy: you can always resort to consumables 17:22:52 and you can prepare, it'll be okay 17:22:59 ok 17:30:58 dpeg: btw, regarding visual vs trap aspect of webs, i think it'll look good anyway as you discover the webs, especially with high t&d. i had an idea that different tiles could be used depending on which edges are connected, so you get proper corner-hanging webs etc. 17:32:15 What about multitype attacks, like Throw Icicle? 17:32:36 Would that trigger an AC boost or a rC boost? Either way, TI will remain a good way to kill it. 17:32:52 DMsl of course 17:33:02 dtsund: I think that's fair as well, it could gain one or the other at random when it dies (or we just give it ring of flames) 17:33:13 >ring of flames 17:33:14 D: 17:37:01 -!- dtsund is now known as dtsund-afk 17:37:32 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:44 mumra: what do you mean by the bit back 17:46:49 oops, just back 17:47:45 mumra: but I don't understand about visual aspect 17:48:03 I think that eg. grey trap glyphs (^) will look good enough 17:48:33 was in reply to <@dpeg> mumra: I think the main difference with cobwebs is visibility vs trap. 17:49:14 but then i was talking about how the traps would be displayed in tiles version 17:49:33 mumra: oh, I meant that your cobwebs would be visible to the player whereas the web trap is not. 17:50:08 yes, i was just saying that as the traps are discovered, the webs will then be visible 17:50:26 and if you have t&d skill then you'll see lots of them, so it'll still create a nice look 17:52:03 ah, of course 17:52:33 mumra: on reflection, it occurred to me that we may want some open spaces among all the webs 17:52:47 so that the trapper can find _some_ way through the web 17:54:34 yes - maybe there could actually be a negative weighting for adjacent webs? to ensure gaps are likely to be left? 17:54:50 yes, I indicated something like this in my reply on the wiki 17:55:09 I guess having some parameters for the weights and running a dozen tests will clear it up 17:56:54 oh yeah i see where you wrote that now; i saw the reply but i missed that bit; sounds good 17:59:02 so what are web traps? just nets 17:59:15 because webs could be all over the place, sort of like an environmental hazard akin to shallow water 17:59:23 Wensley: yes 17:59:25 it could even be a white double ~ rather than a ^ 17:59:31 we should also remove randomly generated net traps, btw 17:59:38 they're rarely meaningful 18:00:03 (thrown nets and net traps in vaults are very meaningful, of course) 18:00:05 I think it would be better if traps only went off in a combat situation 18:00:13 or were vault-defined 18:00:25 Wensley: yes. MarvinPA_ agreed above to remove weapon traps (outside vaults). 18:00:26 so random blade traps wouldn't just make you hit 5 a few times and then move on 18:00:39 no no, I don't think they should be removed entirely 18:01:00 I think that they're very interesting for luring monsters over when you need a little edge 18:01:04 dying to an ood monster is fun in some sense, dying to an anonymous blade trap much less so 18:01:07 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 18:01:38 and if traps *only* go off when you are in a combat situation, if you want to actually make use of them for luring enemies over, it will encourage training t&d 18:02:11 I don't see a way how to do that -- outside vaults. 18:02:25 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:02:28 just add a line to the "will the trap go off?" code that checks tension 18:02:29 We have good traps (Zot, alarm, shaft) and bad traps. Why not remove the latter? 18:02:54 that's what I'm arguing, that the current weapon traps are not bad if used properly :) 18:03:08 but yes, removing them would be better than leaving them as is 18:03:08 Wensley: I still don't think that'd make a blade trap death any better. 18:03:29 are player-placed traps on the plan for 0.10? 18:03:35 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:03:36 no, not at all 18:03:39 -!- hoody has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:04:01 There is a rather detailed plan for setting up traps, but it is on nobody's todo list. Not important enough. 18:04:29 Having monsters that ignite traps when you walk over them could be interesting, of course. 18:04:47 i've mentioned this before (dunno if this idea has any weight) but i still think a good trap type would be a "summoning trap" - you step on it and get hostile shadow creatures summoned on you (maybe durably) 18:04:57 its a fairly simple concept that i think could be fun 18:06:01 evilmike: yes, that sounds good. 18:06:07 we do already have the basket of spiders, which if you think about it is a hilarious name for a trap 18:06:19 I believe that once we agree what good/bad traps are, there'll be plenty of good ideas. 18:06:26 evilmike: can you add it to the trap wiki page? 18:06:36 Wensley: yeah 18:06:38 sure 18:07:11 i dont know of a summoning trap like that would be doable with lua though (maybe it is, but i can't see how to) 18:07:56 perhaps weapon traps could behave sort of like statues, i.e. non-hidden foes that form part of the dungeon's geography. actually, I'm basically imagining replacing arrow traps with archer statues, and blade traps with warrior statues 18:07:57 it should be# 18:08:27 i'm sure with dgn.create_monster you can specify summoned 18:08:32 Wensley: can be done, but then the T&D part is lost 18:08:46 t&d needs a lot of reworking 18:08:58 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:09:32 mumra: you can specify summoned (even summoned by shadow creatures), it's mostly just that I cant think of a good way to make it act like the spell does 18:10:30 what do you mean exactly? 18:10:59 you mean to get a creature set approriate to the current branch? 18:12:12 i mean getting the monsters to be placed in random spots (possibly even far from the player) 18:12:17 Wensley: I am not sure, the detection part is quite okay. The problem is that it's an utterly passive skill, and there's no reason to train beyond 10 or so. The latter can be changed by adding an active component. 18:12:35 you could iterate over an area around the trap, and have a random chance of generating a monster in each square 18:14:42 basket of spiders uses: for p in iter.rect_iterator(dgn.point(x-1, y-1), dgn.point(x+1, y+1)) do 18:15:11 so you can just make the size of that iterator larger, and just use one_chance_in(...) to decide whether to place a monster 18:15:12 yeah, that puts them all next to you. I figure using something similar but with a larger area would have issues though 18:15:27 like putting monsters in nearby rooms that you can't see (and might actually be quite distant) 18:15:42 there's an lua command to test for LOS i think 18:16:01 oh, useful 18:16:02 one problem with monster generation that players can actively enter the trap in order to generate xp 18:16:30 LUA could disable the trap after first triggering, so it's always a limited quantity 18:16:36 yeah 18:16:38 or if it's summoned monsters, no xp anyway 18:17:17 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 18:17:22 in fact, basket of spiders already deactivates the trap 18:17:53 ah here we go: if you.see_cell(x, y) 18:17:58 summoned is good 18:18:04 what does the basket do? 18:18:14 i'd go with summoned + trap deactivates, myself 18:18:29 it creates 8 pathetically weak spiders around you 18:18:38 deactivation is a must, yes 18:18:43 could do with a lot more variations on it, i've seen it loads of times 18:18:53 the spider trap could easily be tweaked to give depth-appropriate spiders 18:19:18 yep, also you could have different vaults for different branches, with appropriate monster sets 18:20:01 i don't think the XP matters if it's a one-off trap - it's only the same XP as a vault containing 8 monsters for instance 18:21:20 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:23:09 -!- dpeg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:23:23 mumra: regarding xp abuse, it is the principle of the thing 18:23:46 I believe that the basket trap was added as a warning, and for flavour. In Spider, it'd need much tougher monsters. 18:25:03 speaking of spider, i know this was asked elsewhere but is there anywhere that says what a spider branch end would involve? 18:25:13 if it was discussed on irc i don't mind reading through logs 18:26:03 dpeg: regarding traps, what do you think of the "cloud of spiders" idea from the spider's nest page? I think that could replace or augment the current basket of spiders 18:26:07 dpeg: i think it was also just an example of how to use the pressure plate trap with lua 18:26:17 evilmike: i was asking about that also on the bug tracker 18:26:45 i'm guessing emperor scorpions and ghost moths would be boss monsters 18:28:13 what about moths of wrath? were those decided to be zot only? 18:28:48 evilmike: just before you got here we were talking about about the branch end with regard to the transdimensional hellspider, you can check in the logs about an hour and a half ago 18:29:01 evilmike: don't think wrath fits the Spider monster set 18:29:07 Web trap tiles graphic (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4459) by mumra 18:29:18 evilmike: no, there is no clear plan for the end 18:29:26 I will set up a hellspider wiki page, though 18:30:31 how about wasps? although now that i think of it, wasps won't do much to players there (they will already have rPois if they are sane) 18:31:02 evilmike: yes, it is not clear if there are sufficient branch end level monsters yet 18:32:18 actually, I had an idea to have there be some enemy or effect in spider's nest to make the player have rPois- 18:32:35 tell us more about it, please 18:32:40 the only real intent of which was that players would not be able to meph or poison cloud with quite as much impunity 18:32:51 it could be a new moth effect... Moth of Weakness 18:32:59 Moth of Frailty is better 18:33:07 evilmike: thanks for wiki 18:33:30 Wensley: temporarily removing a resist on melee contact? Or on sight? 18:33:48 in my opinion there ought to be more ranged enemies 18:33:53 right now the only one i can see is ghost moths 18:34:25 even swamp has swamp drakes and swamp dragons (even though their breath is usually harmless) 18:34:32 dpeg: in sight, I think, although it could be more rarely used, and then on attack it would be guaranteed if damage was dealt 18:34:38 -!- dtsund-afk is now known as dtsund 18:34:47 just throwing ideas out there 18:35:09 spiders spitting acid and venom coated webs ? 18:35:20 Wensley: sounds great 18:35:32 I put several ideas for new spiders on the spider's nest wiki page, at least a few had ranged attacks 18:37:08 evilmike: trapdoor spiders and spiders emerging from web traps both serve to close range at least 18:37:29 btw, is the plan (whenever spider is enabled) for lair to have one of spider/snake and one of swamp/shoals? I've heard this idea before and it seems like a good one 18:38:17 evilmike: not sure, but definitely an option 18:46:08 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:47:19 I think I was the one to propose that, my reasoning being that the former two value rpois more and the latter two value levitation more, although of course this is a gross oversimplication 18:58:01 -!- Mu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:58:36 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 18:59:16 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:branch:spider#hellspider 19:00:25 !tell kilobyte We have fleshed out the web traps proposal, as ordered. After that, we have discussed the Hellspider. I have a lot of hope in it -- it is pretty wacky, but she'd make a very fine opponent. Read up on it on the Spider wiki page. 19:00:25 dpeg_: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 19:00:45 dpeg_: that hellspider isn't a monster you need to fight 5 times, as that proposal stands 19:00:54 it looks like a viable strategy would be to not kill it, so it stays on spider:1 19:01:01 evilmike: then you get no rune 19:01:15 ohhh, i missed "the hellspider is the rune" 19:01:19 I read that as it guards the rune :P 19:01:19 :) 19:01:23 no 19:01:31 it is pretty odd, but it'd capture everything we want 19:02:21 added a sentence to make it more clear 19:02:32 it might enourage clearing out all 5 levels of everything else first, so the hellspider fight is easier 19:02:38 well then, my only other problem is that there would need to be a way to avoid having each level become a "hellspider hunt" 19:03:04 -!- hoody has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:03:12 evilmike: please explain 19:03:28 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 19:03:35 mumra: okay, no going down until you've killed the Hellspider? 19:03:35 dpeg_: if you clear a level and decide to leave the hellspider for later, finding where it wandered off to might be annoying 19:03:41 It's not only the rune but also the stairs :) 19:04:06 evilmike: I don't think so. X Ctrl-F o 19:04:11 i've had this problem before with normal uniques and ghosts - i want to kill them, but can't find them even after forgetting the level map 19:04:16 i suppose it's transdimensional ... so it creates a passage to the next level wherever it dies ... 19:04:17 oh 19:04:20 mumra: yes 19:04:22 sometimes you can get unlucky with forgetting the map 19:04:59 i think an easy solution might be to always spawn the hellspider near one of the down-stairs, and give it patrolling 19:05:04 evilmike: yes 19:05:16 was about to suggest something similar 19:06:21 the problem could largely be solved by making it very hard to escape the transdimensional hellspider 19:06:33 or, rather than making the spider patrol, allow it to have perfect AI 19:06:38 sort of like summons have 19:06:59 that way, you won't *have* to find the spider, it will find you :) 19:07:04 that might be excessive, you don't want spider to become "never enter this branch unless you have cTele" 19:07:22 yes, the other idea is more tame :) 19:07:25 updated wiki 19:07:55 also, a stabber should still be able to stab the hellspider, at least once or twice 19:08:07 it could also have a "summon spider" (maybe "gate spider" for a transdimensional theme) so that you never fight it alone 19:08:22 I like the idea of a smite-targeted spider-summoning spell for the hellspider 19:08:27 Wensley: I made that one facet of the hellspider if you used summons to attack it 19:08:35 ah 19:09:00 also, perhaps we could finally code that transdimensional anchor effect, and give it to the hellspider if you teleport away from it and then leave the level 19:09:22 Wensley: you mean the teleport anchor? 19:09:26 yes 19:09:44 it'd make such a nice misc item 19:09:51 guess it's implementable stuff 19:11:31 -!- GreatZebu has joined ##crawl-dev 19:12:14 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:12:45 dpeg_: I was thinking, perhaps we could involve the tavern in the development process by allowing them to vote for and thereby rank implementables in the order they would like to see them done. this wouldn't do anything official, but any freelance coders or devs with free time could use the list as a jumping-off point. (the real point is to get the community to feel involved in the dev... 19:12:47 ...process and hopefully encourage them to contribute) 19:13:08 upvoting implementables sounds nice 19:13:13 hm, let me regurgitate that for a moment 19:13:36 but i would prefer that the inherent order displayed is unrelated to community voting -- thus you have to specifically go looking for it. 19:13:59 having a top ten of implementables on the forum would be good, yes 19:14:17 yes, and by forcing the tavern folks to look through the wiki for ideas, perhaps they will find good ideas that we've all forgotten 19:14:36 it would hopefully make forum users look at the implementables, and at the same time give a clue to devs and patchers what's most highly valued 19:14:49 Wensley: good point 19:14:54 how to set it up? 19:15:51 first would need to make some announcement to gauge interest and establish the idea. this post would call for people to look through the wiki and the mantis and reply with a list of their most-wanted implementables, in order. after so many replies have been posted, an official list could be compiled 19:16:07 would you? :) 19:16:17 I could, yes :) 19:16:47 make it very clear that they can only vote on implementables, otherwise you'll get lots of votes for stuff like dual wielding :P 19:16:49 -!- voker57 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:16:49 evilmike: http://pastebin.com/LTg8CAmD 19:16:59 it's a modified spiders basket to produce summons in a wider area 19:17:11 wow, cool 19:17:18 mumra: <3 19:17:23 could add n number of branch / level targetted vaults with different monster sets 19:17:25 evilmike: yes, good point 19:17:26 i wasn't planning on taking a crack at it until a few hours from now, but you did all the work, haha 19:17:50 Wensley: this has a drawback, it forces us to dish out more implementables :) 19:17:52 it needs some work still anyway :) 19:18:16 dpeg_: that was a secret goal of this, yes :) 19:18:48 Wensley: but we really have to do this, so it's okay! 19:19:53 also, if there isn't already a wiki page for the 0.10 plan, I'll make one 19:20:03 mumra: is there a technical reason for the trap map being surrounded by empty space? 19:20:26 all the page will contain is "octopodes and demon recategorization", because that's all I know is happening in 0.10 :P 19:20:31 evilmike: no, it was there on basket of spiders to ensure there was space for the spiders 19:20:46 but you could increase the empty space to ensure more room for the summons 19:20:55 or add other decor around some of them ... 19:21:01 i think it would be good if the map was just one square actually 19:21:14 Wensley: spider branch, skill menu simplification (fuzzing), food reform 19:21:23 ah yes, food reform 19:21:25 summons in corridors are weaker, but traps in corridors are stronger, so it balances out 19:21:42 evilmike: i agree 19:22:10 -!- BirdoPrey has quit [Quit: BirdoPrey] 19:22:21 FR: magical trap that digs out all the walls around you, and *then* summons a bunch of dudes 19:22:32 doable 19:22:41 Wensley: that would be possible with a small modification of that LUA 19:22:56 there's a Xom trap that already does something similar 19:22:59 just make a corridor on Lua and mark each of the walls 19:23:08 replace plate with pressure trap and drop the walls and then place summoned monsters at each spot. 19:23:12 Wensley: I really want that as an orb effect 19:23:12 might work better with earth elementals... "You blunder into an elemental trap! The walls come alive!!" 19:23:22 with orb guardians on the circumference 19:23:27 ha, yes 19:23:29 one of the wiki ideas is a wall destroying trap 19:23:33 kind of reminds me of adom tension rooms 19:23:34 the orb summoning guardians ++ 19:24:04 evilmike: what are they? 19:24:10 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 19:24:23 dpeg_: a room full of monsters, when you enter some walls crumble 19:24:31 ah 19:24:32 in practice the crumbling doesn't do much, but i like the idea behind it 19:24:36 oooh i want pixies. 19:25:00 evilmike: I made a wizlab where the walls crumble (okay, all the work was done by others, but I had the idea) 19:28:00 Wensley: demons merge + abjuration nerf + monster summ tweaks, hex-based AM spellbook are my top two 0.10 aims, if you're making a wiki page for it 19:28:14 doing that now 19:28:16 MarvinPA: great list 19:29:10 MarvinPA: shall we have a go at successless (is that a word?) Hexes temporarily reducing MR of the target? 19:29:32 ah yeah, that sounds like something worth trying too 19:29:51 It might not be complicated technically; harder to get the numbers right. 19:30:04 ugh, forgotten how to make a page in a specific namespace 19:30:20 Wensley: enter the name you want 19:30:38 then you get "Page does not exist." together with a 'Create page' button somewhere 19:31:13 dcss:planning:0.10_plan or something 19:31:35 dpeg_: wasn't that a volcano? 19:32:21 due: no, I mean the Tomb of Dorokhloe wizlab. 19:32:25 ohhh 19:32:38 due: you implemented the volcano where the caves crash in 19:32:44 * due nod. 19:32:53 Yes, forgot about dorokhloe. <333 that lab. 19:33:02 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:planning has a bunch of deferred 0.9 stuff at the bottom, too 19:33:09 I saw theglow (tournament winner) play it 19:33:22 it has some weaknesses, gotta improve it at some point 19:33:24 nice! 19:33:41 it's one of the most dreaded wizlabs, you'll be happy to know :) 19:33:43 unfortunately, portal vaults do not necessarily scale very well with changes to general game balance. 19:33:50 He was cursing when he got it... asked him and he said he did when he did it the first time. 19:34:03 It's... nasty. 19:34:04 Dorokhloe - theglow 1:! 19:34:05 1:1 19:34:17 due: what do you have in mind? 19:34:33 that wizlab is one of the hardest, definitely 19:34:43 \o/ 19:34:50 the wizlabs are definitely my favourite portal vaults, there's a lot of fun ones 19:35:06 due: if you spot becoming obsolete, tell us 19:35:09 dpeg_: Well, volcanoes are fiddly due to changes in clouds; other labs and volcanoes are problematic due to shifts in monster difficulty, etc. 19:35:16 i haven't had time to play crawl in forever though :) 19:35:17 *:( 19:35:21 they tend to be the best looking vaults too 19:35:36 evilmike: i did work very hard on looks :0 19:35:38 *:) 19:35:55 due: just watching others play is sufficient for this! 19:36:12 are feature mimics already re-merged? 19:36:20 yes 19:36:23 i don't think so 19:36:25 oh, maybe then! 19:36:26 it seems like a golubria wizlab would be somewhat easy to make, thematically - use teleport traps with semi-guaranteed locations, call them golubria portals or whatever 19:36:37 i find the idea of actually attempting it rather daunting though, i lack artistic talent 19:36:37 * due dropped the ball on feature mimics. 19:36:53 but galehar picked it up! 19:36:58 dpeg_: i know! :D 19:37:09 evilmike: if you can come up with a rough, first version, we will take over 19:37:39 I really want to do an unseen horror wizlab. 19:39:17 i like the Maxwell's Forge wizlab idea in wizlab.des (even if Maxwell's is now an ex-spell :P) 19:39:48 # Maxwell's Forge: Maxwell employs a bunch of angels to churn out weapons; stashes of hammers, flame clouds, other "smithy" styled themes, with black smoke. 19:40:00 MarvinPA: my proposal was to have MSH make hammers holy (for a duration). Would that be too weak for a level 1 spell? 19:40:47 hehehe, Maxwell's Forge <3 19:41:24 did Eringya's Gardeb ever get the additional treatment? 19:43:10 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 19:45:47 -!- BirdoPrey has joined ##crawl-dev 19:48:12 page created: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:0.10_plan 19:48:20 thank you 19:48:35 Squonk (L2 NaNe) ASSERT((x < mx) && (y < my) && (x >= 0) && (y >= 0)) in 'tileweb-text.cc' at line 80 failed. (D:1 (ZotDef)) 19:49:16 Squonk (L1 NaNe) ASSERT((x < mx) && (y < my) && (x >= 0) && (y >= 0)) in 'tileweb-text.cc' at line 80 failed. (D:1 (ZotDef)) 19:50:34 ooh right, new abyss is a 0.10 thing too i guess 19:50:41 oh right 19:50:41 Wensley: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 19:50:43 will add 19:51:31 also i guess the hive implementable could go on there? 19:51:53 i could add this myself, but while you're at it... :P 19:55:02 hive, abyss, hex thing added 19:55:28 oh, shall I mention galehar's idea of six months between crawl releases? 19:56:17 Wensley: not sure if that was the crucial point 19:56:25 let galehar do it :) 19:56:29 ha 19:56:33 Is being unable to return to unique pan levels after being banished an intended feature, or a side-effect of the way they're implemented? I think it's pretty lousy that you can't collect all the runes if you have bad enough luck to get banished on one of those levels. 19:57:25 the latter, i think 19:57:43 at least, i definitely want them to change so that you just return to the pan level you left when you're banished 19:57:47 yes, it's a side effect, not the design, imo 19:57:53 well, right now you can either ninja quickly, have enough MR, use summons to screen the banishment, or wait for the devs to code the dimensional anchor spell 19:58:13 unfortunately i have no idea how to do that myself (although i've not actually looked into it as such) :P 19:58:18 what is dimensional anchor supposed to do? 19:59:18 I was thinking about looking into changing it, but I didn't want to waste my time if it's an intended feature and a patch would be rejected 19:59:47 it's a proposal on the misc item page... I think it prevents all translocation effects, and maybe also confers some other negative effect 20:00:02 so no banishment, but no teleporting or blinking either 20:00:14 ahh, I see 20:00:19 i would certainly push for it to be accepted, if you mean changing how banishment works in pan :) 20:00:33 good to know :-) 20:00:35 I think the same holds for portal vaults 20:00:47 that's high up on my wishlist 20:05:43 -!- dpeg_ has quit [Quit: zzz] 20:05:53 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:59 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:31:55 -!- moocowpong1 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:33:38 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:49 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:35:40 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Client Quit] 20:36:20 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 20:39:37 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 20:43:51 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:45:36 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 20:49:44 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:52:44 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 20:58:56 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06:28 -!- GreatZebu has quit [Quit: GreatZebu] 21:19:25 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 21:26:18 -!- Euphoria has joined ##crawl-dev 21:26:18 -!- Euphoria has quit [Changing host] 21:26:19 -!- Euphoria has joined ##crawl-dev 21:43:31 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 21:47:50 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 21:59:07 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:35 -!- ontoclasm1 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:00:09 -!- ontoclasm1 has left ##crawl-dev 22:01:20 -!- Chousuke has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:07:20 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:07:45 -!- Chousuke has joined ##crawl-dev 22:08:37 03Mu * r4f6924419d19 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: Powerful new minivault by evilmike 22:11:26 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12:17 yessss 22:12:50 powerful vault, powerful man 22:13:15 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 22:14:20 -!- ionfrigate has joined ##crawl-dev 22:14:59 is cao ever going to report 0.9 games? 22:16:00 I don't get that vault 22:16:27 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:19:08 the door vault is one of the most infamous minivaults, thats a variation/parody of it that starts you inside with the monsters outside 22:19:35 oh, the { is you? 22:19:53 it's a staircase 22:20:05 wait i must see this 22:20:08 Mu_: how powerful are we talking here? quite powerful? 22:20:22 ah 22:20:33 that's pretty good, haha 22:22:24 -!- GreatZebu has joined ##crawl-dev 22:39:44 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:39:50 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:42:45 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 22:46:12 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:46:20 -!- hoody has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:52:22 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:50 -!- GreatZebu has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:10:33 Crypt Tiles (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4460) by ontoclasm 23:16:07 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 23:19:15 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 23:43:32 -!- purge has quit [Quit: !] 23:52:12 -!- BirdoPrey has quit [Quit: BirdoPrey] 23:56:52 -!- |amethyst has joined ##crawl-dev