00:05:28 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-357-g613469b (32) 00:05:41 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:14:17 -!- Guest1402 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:14:29 -!- Guest1402 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:27:11 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:29:50 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:32:13 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:40:58 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 00:43:02 -!- MarvinPA__ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:43:52 -!- pwnmonkey_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:44:12 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:45:04 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:45:37 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:45:46 -!- pwnmonkey has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:47:49 -!- MarvinPA__ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:49:51 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:49:59 -!- pwnmonkey has joined ##crawl-dev 00:52:57 -!- pwnmonkey_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:53:19 -!- hoody has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:53:35 -!- Euphoria has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:53:44 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 00:54:27 -!- pwnmonkey_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:54:28 -!- pwnmonkey has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:56:06 -!- pwnmonkey_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:00:04 -!- pwnmonkey has joined ##crawl-dev 01:11:44 -!- dtsund has quit [Quit: dtsund] 01:12:23 -!- pwnmonkey has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:14:15 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 01:25:30 -!- pwnmonkey has joined ##crawl-dev 01:31:46 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:32:10 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 01:36:09 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:36:30 -!- hoody has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:44:33 -!- zpmorgan has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:50:32 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:54:57 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:55:22 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 01:56:36 -!- zpmorgan has joined ##crawl-dev 01:59:49 -!- hoody has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:03:56 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:46:08 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:58:51 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 03:01:00 -!- pwnmonkey has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:01:23 -!- pwnmonkey has joined ##crawl-dev 03:05:31 -!- pwnmonkey has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:22:35 Quarterstaff of chaos doesn't work (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4441) by nubinia 03:24:11 -!- zpmorgan has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:27:11 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:37:40 Firefox 6.0 image freezes, but continues to accept input. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4442) by nubinia 03:37:44 -!- zpmorgan has joined ##crawl-dev 03:48:19 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 04:36:04 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 05:00:52 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 05:10:12 Sometimes main map is black after using stairs (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4443) by nubinia 05:34:27 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 06:01:02 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:02:20 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:02:21 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:13:40 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 06:28:19 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:29:00 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:29:00 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:29:39 hetzner router having problems.. it's not CDO itself. 06:31:03 ok 06:31:13 * kilobyte stops spamming you with ICMP traffic. 06:31:51 -!- Napkin has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:31:55 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 06:34:34 -!- Gretell has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:37:50 -!- Eifeltrampel has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:37:52 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 06:37:52 -!- Eifeltrampel has joined ##crawl-dev 06:37:55 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 06:47:38 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:48:25 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:48:25 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:54:02 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 06:56:36 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Quit: Recalculating TATARI at "the crossing crossing"] 07:02:01 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 07:09:26 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 07:11:15 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:12:36 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 07:12:47 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56:17 -!- st__ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:58:25 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:58:59 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 08:02:12 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:08:04 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:24:48 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 08:56:04 due: I like how drawing a swap card in sight of an eldritch tentacle severs the tentacle properly :) 09:19:20 -!- dpeg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:20:14 -!- zpmorgan has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:26:36 profreshinal (L1 HuEE) ASSERT((x < mx) && (y < my) && (x >= 0) && (y >= 0)) in 'tileweb-text.cc' at line 80 failed. (D:1 (ZotDef)) 09:30:50 -!- zpmorgan has joined ##crawl-dev 09:32:53 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:34:16 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:44:36 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 09:45:07 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 10:01:23 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:06:04 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 10:12:05 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:12:56 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:14:07 ??tournament 10:14:07 tournament[1/3]: The Aug 2011 tourney will be 00:00 Sat 13 Aug - 00:00 Mon 29 Aug. See http://crawl.akrasiac.org/tourney11/ for the rules. elliptic will be gone for the remainder of the tourney, but if anything goes wrong then e-mail him at hyperelliptical at gmail dot com and he might be able to fix it. 10:14:53 ??time 10:14:53 I don't have a page labeled time in my learndb. 10:15:02 !time 10:15:03 Time: Aug 27, 2011, 03:15:03 PM, UTC. The 2011 tournament ends in 1 day, 8 hours, 44 minutes and 56 seconds. 10:37:29 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 10:38:12 MarvinPA: thank you! 10:38:28 I didn't expect it, but the tournament seems open again. 10:38:37 (as in who'll win) 11:00:34 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:08:36 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 11:09:09 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 11:25:10 Mummy death curse -> your XYZ scowls horribly during silence (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4445) by Grmpf 11:30:03 Can Haunt generate silent spectres? 11:30:24 never seen one, whatever that means 11:30:39 To the wizmodebile! 11:30:51 :) 11:34:14 Nope, can't seem to get spectres. I'd think it an exploit if you could. 11:34:38 yes, I agree 11:34:52 ...but you can Haunt your own summons, to build up a ghostly army. Cast mammals or butterflies once, and cast Haunt at them... 11:35:21 dtsund: what's the link to your variant? 11:35:48 https://github.com/dtsund/dtsund-crawl-mod 11:35:50 dtsund: I believe some sort of summon nerf is necessary. 11:35:52 thank you 11:35:56 Though it's currently in a bit of flux 11:36:19 I'm moving to a new repository on github that's a proper clone of Stone Soup, for easier patch exchange 11:36:43 good 11:36:45 But work has stalled a bit of late; I just moved to the US east coast. Just in time for an oncoming hurricane. 11:37:50 Should pick up again soon, as I get settled in 11:39:12 dtsund: did you ask Napkin to get your variant on the server? 11:40:01 Nah, and I don't think I'll seriously want it until 0.2; that'll be when the major changes start happening. 11:40:22 0.1 was meant to be relatively conservative. 11:41:35 But my intent is to alternate between crazy releases that have big changes that could break balance one way or the other, and more conservative ones that tighten the game up while changing little else... 11:41:59 yes, you said so 11:42:14 you know what's going into 0.2? 11:42:16 I think CL 0.2 will have DoomRL-style sidestepping, for instance, which'd be a huge change 11:42:26 aha 11:42:44 we have plans for our own sidestepping, not sure how that relates to DoomRL 11:42:55 Let me see... dungeon shortening, no random IDs, Shoals overhaul... 11:43:06 's on his way out 11:43:28 (Nothing against Ashenzari, just I think monster detection would be a good fit for Cheibriados) 11:44:18 The optional difficulty overhaul, which is somewhat elaborate: 11:45:48 Early portal vault, right after Temple depth. It's intended to be an exceptionally nasty but doable vault, with a y/n prompt for entering. Difficulty, ideally, will be such that beginners will find it too scary but experienced players could usually do it after a struggle. 11:46:30 portal vault with new content? 11:46:41 At the end of the vault is a special door, the Pandoora. Opening it releases evil into the dungeon, making OoD generation nastier and allowing the toughest uniques to be generated, but is necessary if you want to allrune. 11:47:01 I intend for it to be new, but I'll probably need to ask for vault-building advice around here when it comes time to make it. 11:47:20 sure 11:47:33 Behind the door is some loot, including two guaranteed scrolls of acquirement. Prospective allruners need to not read them, but hang on to them. 11:48:25 The floor after Lair will have a timed portal to the Abyss that requires two scrolls of acquirement to function. If you enter the Abyss through this portal, you can't find the abyssal rune, but you can find the key to Hell. 11:48:47 Of course, you need this key to enter Hell. 11:49:14 so players have to choose between using the acquirement scrolls for some urgent purpose or to keep them for all-runing? 11:49:21 Yep. 11:49:39 Oh, and ?acquirement won't be found randomly before that Abyss portal. 11:49:40 you'll need to make acquirement better for that to be an enticing decision :P 11:49:46 Wensley: I already did! 11:49:47 could they still get acquirement scrolls later from pan scumming or whatever and use those to get into hell? 11:50:00 MarvinPA: Timed portal; it'd be long gone by then. 11:50:38 Wensley: http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab252/dtsund/acquirement_sample.png 11:51:33 also, I've found four scrolls of acquirement this game in the levels before lair, I presume you've disabled them from spawning at all in this range? 11:51:49 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:51:50 * dtsund gestures a few messages up 11:52:09 oops, silly internet 11:52:10 Anyway, that portal is also a sort of soft solution to hopping; allruners will have a strong incentive to do as much as they really can before going to that depth. 11:52:17 missed the mention of it being timed though, yeah 11:53:26 I think I might have opening the Pandoora alter the Hive in some way, so it produces less food, but my plans there haven't been fully thought out 11:53:30 seems like it could be difficult to communicate to new players though? 11:53:43 New players shouldn't be entering the portal. 11:54:05 right but they should be able to figure out how it all works 11:54:08 It's for experienced players; new players will see the portal their first few times in that depth and learn that way. 11:54:20 i guess they'll figure out to save the acq scrolls after reaching the portal the first time, yeah 11:54:36 how do you communicate that it's a special, different abyss to the normal abyss though? 11:55:00 there could be "Abyss" vs "ABYSS" 11:55:07 The portal will be named differently, something like "a homing abyssal portal" 11:55:10 megaabyss 11:55:12 :P 11:55:34 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:55:38 The idea is that the Hell key is in the Abyss anyway, you'll just never find it in that infinite place without taking a homing portal 11:55:39 it all sounds extremely convoluted 11:56:00 st__: dtsund said he was going to implement some crazy stuff 11:57:05 I didn't know that Spider might be ready for 0.10, we'll be busy with polishing that, I guess. Webs, for example. 11:57:34 'homing', really? :P 11:57:41 * dtsund shrugs 11:57:47 I haven't implemented it yet. 11:58:00 'a violently flickering Abyssal portal' 11:58:17 That might work better. All the names and stuff like that is kind of up in the air. 11:58:58 Also, I think if I can get sidestepping to work well, it'll be a good anti-corridors thing 11:59:16 Because you can't exactly sidestep in corridors 12:00:06 dpeg_: The way DoomRL sidestepping works is if you move, there's a chance that enemies will fire at where you were standing rather than where you are now. 12:00:37 It's a failry good chance, but isn't guaranteed unless you take the Dodgemaster trait. 12:00:41 *fairly 12:01:37 ah, i didn't realize that's how it worked 12:01:57 perhaps it could be something like a speed+X+Y / 10 chance 12:02:25 where X is some value everyone gets, and Y is if something increases your sidestep chance 12:02:30 You sure you want to buff Haste? :P 12:02:32 (like replace rmsl with an illusion spell) 12:03:32 Ideally, I'd like the formula to be such that light armor doesn't have any benefits over heavy 12:04:11 dtsund: i think it should take speed into account because it seems far more intuitive 12:04:12 Though an invocation that makes sidestepping more likely to succeed might be a lot of fun. Maybe it could even guarantee it. 12:04:46 perhaps oka's Heroism could provide that 12:05:12 Eronarn: Doesn't feel like a good fit for Oka. 12:05:23 I actually was thinking of Oku myself 12:05:26 Eronarn: More like a "god of sneak" stuff 12:05:27 dtsund: ah, this was also Lemuel's proposal for sidestepping 12:05:45 ghallberg: nah, the situation it would be best in is charging towards a mass of enemies 12:05:46 he suggested to make it depend on Dex 12:05:48 that's not sneaky 12:05:51 that's trog/oka territory 12:06:15 Eronarn: But it's about avoiding getting hit, doesn't feel vary heroic. 12:06:16 I don't want it to be Dex dependent, because that's a light armor buff and/or a heavy armor nerf 12:06:24 why? 12:06:35 you also have Dex with heavy armour 12:06:35 ghallberg: By that reasoning, using a weapon stronger than a dagger isn't heroic 12:06:39 ghallberg: heroes don't get hit in fights by weak opponents :) 12:06:48 Heavy armor guys pump Str so they can use the best armors. 12:06:58 Light armor guys pump Dex so they can dodge stuff. 12:07:07 dtsund: actually light mostly pump int so they can cast 12:07:24 buffing dex-heavy light armor users isn't necessarily bad, especially since this would be a pretty marginal buff 12:07:32 so they sidestep a little less efficiently than a pure Dex character (e.g. a stabber), sounds good to me 12:07:35 True, but mostly light armor users use races that have good Dex 12:07:49 Yeah, I guess having a better sidestep for Dex is fine. 12:07:50 in any case, the idea was to use a single parameter, and a stat seems useful 12:08:22 You're kind of right in that Dex is a bit of a marginal stat 12:09:06 There is a larger plan for a number of such maneuvers, and they should be governed by stats (so Str or Dex) 12:09:18 chance could be something like: (movespeed (after slow/haste) + dex/5) * (angle multiplier), where someone at speed 10 dex 10 has 1/10 chance if they move at a 45 deg angle? 12:09:20 Also, I like the idea of putting a sidestep bonus in Heroism, because as it is, the skill just exists to make Ashenzari fume a bit 12:09:24 Sidestep is one of the easy ones, there'd also be stuff for Str 12:10:14 Eronarn: but Swift and Haste are already good enough, why prefer them some more? 12:10:20 whereas someone with haste and base movespeed 10 would have 3/10 12:10:23 1/10 seems too low to me; it's not a serious incentive to fight in the open 12:10:30 er, base movespeed 10, haste, and 20 dex 12:10:58 dpeg_: i don't think it makes sense to have slow things as good as sidestepping, but it also doesn't make sense to only look at base speed and not magical speed effects 12:11:08 Anyway, I have to go prepare for an oncoming hurricane, but I'll read the logs for this discussion later 12:11:15 -!- dtsund is now known as dtsund-afk 12:11:24 dtsund: good luck with the tornado, sounds pretty bad 12:11:41 * Eronarn just moved to right where the center of it is passing through 12:11:44 Hurricanes and tornadoes are very different animals 12:11:52 yes yes 12:11:54 Eronarn: Hah, I'm in a similar situation. 12:11:59 dtsund-afk: long island? 12:12:02 Eronarn: I can see it as a function of just how dextrous you are 12:12:06 No, Cambridge. 12:12:12 oh, pft :P 12:12:17 But up until a few days ago, I was in Arizona. 12:12:31 We, uh, don't get hurricanes there. 12:12:42 reverse rax! :) 12:13:01 dpeg_: there is a similar problem currently with chei - it isn't intuitive that the high statboost = great dodging, even though they move very slowly 12:13:18 if walkspeed didn't matter, chei would also be great at sidestepping 12:14:07 -!- Guest1402 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:14:23 one thing to consider is also how many rounds opponents will fire at you for one move 12:14:40 like, something firing at you at speed 20 when you have move 5 = 4 attacks that you sidestep. how should that work? 12:15:31 a Chei follower would clearly be not good at sidestepping 12:15:37 I don't see a conflict here 12:15:47 dpeg_: that's just it - they could end up good at it! 12:16:06 if movespeed isn't a factor, they get more shots fired at them per step, but they are actually better at sidestepping those shots (because of the high dex) 12:16:37 -!- Guest1402 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:18:55 Eronarn: there is already a function for shield blocking where each blocked hit (in a turn) makes it less likely to also block the next 12:19:51 -!- Textmode has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:20:37 dpeg_: yes, i think something like that could be good - i think if we represent it as 'tracking', it makes sense for each enemy to only be able to fail to aim at the right square until they aim at it successfully 12:20:53 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 12:22:59 Eronarn: Maybe Chei just shouldn't increase Dex as much? Since a large part of Dex is speed? 12:23:51 there were a couple of ideas for chei adjustments that would let us scale back the stat boosts anyway 12:24:14 ghallberg: perhaps a completely different bonus system could be found for Chei. I just wanted to make sure that the power you get for the slowness fits 12:24:23 ghallberg: personally i don't think chei should give stat boosts or resists 12:24:30 they aren't thematic at all 12:24:40 MarvinPA_: what are they? 12:24:42 Eronarn: I'm not exactly sure what chei gives tbh. But Dex seems really odd. 12:24:53 boosts to str/int/dex, and rf/rc/rpois 12:24:56 Eronarn: What would be thematic? 12:25:06 abilities related to time, space, speed, etc. 12:25:10 mmk 12:25:38 Those are hard to come up with though 12:25:42 yes, but worth it 12:25:49 Yeah 12:25:50 ghallberg: the god also gives slouch (damages those faster than you) and a power to make the others slow, and another one to step from time 12:25:57 dpeg_: there was the idea to remove ponderousness and make slowness either be an invocation or just directly tied to piety 12:26:14 i think a god that gives good stat boosts would be cool, but for example - why not give that to zin? 12:26:42 and then some ideas for either active/passive abilities that give a little help against ranged attackers 12:26:48 MarvinPA_: but with the ponderous stuff we re-used an existing mechanic 12:26:58 yeah, but it's caused all kinds of problems 12:27:00 like the racial slots 12:27:01 and randartization 12:27:27 the racial slots are solved, and the randart issue can be seen as a choice 12:31:09 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 12:31:15 MarvinPA_: delaying missiles? 12:31:25 Would probably be hell to code... 12:31:53 dpeg_: Honestly that sounds like quite a few nice abilities 12:32:52 anyway, my preference would be to try and come up with some sort new of time-themed active and/or passive ability, to start replacing the stat boosts 12:34:17 what about blades rusting or arrows rotting because they take so long to land a swing against you? 12:34:25 ghallberg: yes, the god is working. He's a bit special, with the conduct, but you don't have to go to extremely slow speed. It is true that the bonus for slow speed (stat boost, resists) is tacked on -- but the thematic meaning is clear: you become strong from being slow. It's just that the boosts themselves are not theme-related 12:35:13 i did start to mess with an ability that tries to blink things closer to you, themed as distorting time around you, which i think could be pretty useful 12:35:34 and on the passive side there's all sorts of ideas for slowing or deflecting missiles, yeah 12:35:36 among the gods, I wouldn't reckon Chei as the one most in need of a fix 12:36:14 who? 12:36:39 Sif on mechanics, and Vehumet on theme 12:36:42 i'd say xom i guess, although there's an implementable for him at least which could help a lot 12:36:48 Okawaru's gift are still a thorn in my eye 12:37:12 MarvinPA_: jpeg has a plan for Xom 12:37:25 oh cool 12:37:31 MarvinPA_: it's true that Xom needs most urgently help to get playable 12:38:15 can't believe oka still gifts :( 12:38:42 I'd keep the gifts, but change the mechanic completely 12:40:26 I'd change gifts to armour only 12:42:12 even send a full proposal to kilobyte but that was probably too convoluted (I tried to do two things at once: temporary gifts where you have to work to get them permanent; and item boosts, including on artifacts) 12:42:50 I like both parts, especially because they give a choice when combined, but the first one could be used right away to make the gifts more interesting 12:46:21 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 12:49:44 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:54:31 MarvinPA: in console, for a given ziggurat, all storeys will have the same shape with outer wall of the same colour 12:55:14 jpeg and I are just watching a ziggurat raid in webtiles, and there the wall colour changes from level to level -- is this normal? 12:59:20 ...should there be zot traps underneath runes? 13:00:40 Acquirement gifted untrained weapon (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4446) by mothringer 13:02:43 Zannick: which one? 13:02:50 slimy rune, in this case 13:03:35 strange, should not happen 13:04:31 I think I got that once 13:04:51 -!- dtsund-afk is now known as dtsund 13:04:59 dpeg_: That's normal, the color change. 13:06:08 Regarding gods, I plan to tweak a few other ones for 0.2 13:06:22 No set-in-stone plans, though. 13:10:25 dtsund: well, the tilist can do what they want to do, but the original idea (and the console implementation) is that a ziggurat has a fixed shape and a fixed colour, it's not a rainbow 13:10:48 Oh. 13:11:05 I can tell you it's been that way since 0.5. 13:12:06 dtsund: good to know, I'll tell the authorities :) 13:13:13 No dpeg 13:13:18 You are the authorities 13:13:28 And then he was the authorities. 13:13:47 dpeg has to submit a formal application to himself for his approval 13:14:14 then, and only then, can he inform himself 13:15:15 I'll file a bug report. 13:20:38 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:22:19 My idea for Vehumet flavor is to have him as a sort of Shiva-like destroyer. Not evil, really, just the natural counterpart to creative forces. 13:28:16 yes, that is good 13:28:30 he should give the Sum component to someone else 13:29:25 * dtsund doesn't want to nerf Vehumet in CL, he already thinks Vehumet's the poor man's Sif Muna 13:29:58 vehumet is pretty great for a focused conjurer 13:30:07 No... not really. 13:30:08 the reduced mana cost, improved range, and improved power go a long way 13:30:38 not saying that veh couldn't use a lot of improvement, but he gets a bad rep undeservedly 13:30:39 I've won conjurers of both Vehumet and Sif Muna, and I spent all my Vehumet games going "this would be so much easier if I had Sif instead" 13:30:50 sif's more broken than veh, imo 13:31:51 I'm thinking about having Sif ban physical combat and bump down your HP to 0 Fighting levels, but even then I think Vehumet would be inferior for pure conjurers 13:33:28 whenever i go sif i spend all my time thinking "this would be so much easier if i went veh instead" 13:33:34 so maybe it is a matter of opinion! 13:33:39 Could be. 13:33:54 I know I wouldn't even think of allruning under Veh, though 13:34:04 i certainly would, and have done multiple times :) 13:34:18 O' course, not every god needs to be great for allrune games. 13:34:36 MarvinPA: Before or after the CBoE nerf? 13:35:06 before, after, without using ball of energy at all 13:35:12 Oh, wait, when you can Storm, the MP regen actually starts to mean something. 13:35:19 dtsund: you have a pretty weird idea of balance 13:35:20 staff of channeling is all you need really anyway for emergencies 13:35:32 the mp regen becomes pretty worthwhile, yeah 13:36:14 My experience with MP regen was mostly "occasionally you regain an MP or two in a battle." 13:36:32 it adds up, especially in combination with the reduced mp costs 13:36:47 Yeah. 13:36:59 even just with bolt or cloud spells you can easily get back all the mp you used, let alone storms 13:37:05 I mean, he's not *bad* or anything like that 13:37:16 I never even came close to regaining all my MP after a bolt, I think. 13:37:35 5mp per bolt, not hard to get that out of 2 kills 13:37:56 * dpeg_ still believes that channelling is the root of all evil. 13:38:07 I don't recall ever getting more than 1 MP or so per kill 13:38:55 it's based on monster HD 13:39:09 Maybe I'll have to give Vehumet another run and see if he's better than my memory tells me. 13:39:25 perhaps Vehu could drop reward for deaths and stress cost reduction more? 13:40:16 I would start thematically: separate the Con and Sum parts 13:40:51 i'd certainly still use veh if he didn't bother with summonings, yeah, and that would make it much easier to improve the theme 13:40:57 (I still think he has no theme and no unique worth so he should be totally reworked) 13:41:18 s/improve/add/ :p 13:41:31 kilobyte: it's true 13:41:43 but he could get a theme of ranged destruction, for example 13:41:49 I was actually thinking about seeing if I could give him dualcasting at a steep piety cost 13:42:08 "god of mayhem and destruction", meh... we got two already 13:42:20 kilobyte: yes, but focus on ranged 13:42:24 dtsund: ie, Finesse for casting? 13:42:27 which could mean a conduct 13:42:52 "god of snipers" or such 13:43:19 kilobyte: No, just two spells before the current turn ends. Cost would have to be high, though. 13:43:53 dtsund: that's no different from casting taking half the time 13:44:12 No, it is different; it means that the enemy can't possibly take a turn before your second cast 13:44:19 sure it is 13:44:21 Even really fast things like executioners 13:45:06 It'd also mean you get the two spells the same turn you use the ability, whereas Finesse costs a turn to activate 13:45:44 dtsund: yeah, a timed effect 13:46:13 sum => pact god :) 13:46:37 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:46:38 The intent would be for it to be a rather unique panic button, where instead of getting away from whatever's trying to kill you, you try to completely obliterate it 13:46:46 the gifts could also be better, for both S and V 13:47:00 it could be a bit tedious to enable the ability every turn. Getting an one-turn haste is a small effect. 13:47:13 dtsund: my Vehumet proposal has dual fire, where you can quiver wands and shoot them alongside your ranged attack 13:47:20 kilobyte: You shouldn't be using it every turn. 13:48:42 dtsund: what about making it really, really powerful rather than just 2x cast? like: every vehu spell you have memorized is cast once, at a random enemy 13:49:02 Eronarn: Also interesting. 13:49:08 back later 13:49:17 Eronarn: I'd be interested in helping out with pact god if you pulled some specifics together 13:49:25 Making sure you don't Storm yourself would be a pain, though. 13:49:27 I think it might be worthwhile to try to get away from only casting with V 13:49:54 Wensley: the idea is a god where you have a strong incentive to pick up at least some summ, but also has some stuff for people who just want to play with one or two strong summons as companions 13:49:57 dtsund: then it gives too ittle to matter 13:50:03 like, have the spc success boost fall off the more summons you have 13:50:07 [5~(damn lag) 13:50:09 Eronarn: like named summons? familiars? 13:50:55 Eronarn: could be interesting... even if it goes on Beogh's territory 13:51:07 Wensley: yes - so you could be, say, mostly a fighter but with 5 levels of summ, and this is enough to get a permanent ugly thing buddy 13:51:52 the pact domains could be something like: nature, otherworldly, undeath, elementals 13:51:56 do you have a working name for the god? or which letter you want it to be? 13:51:56 Eronarn: what if that ugly dies? 13:53:01 dpeg_: for combat changes: it'd be good to merge Cryp71c's rewrite first. Do you happen to know if he's coming back? 13:53:22 kilobyte: i think a good approach would be: you have to make a new familiar, which starts leveliing up again from scratch for that summon type, unless you have a specific pact in which case you can bring it back the way it was as the first thing you summon next time you use that spell 13:56:21 Eronarn: ie, the pact empowers a single spell by making one summon from it at a time stronger, right? 13:56:56 kilobyte: there would be multiple pacts, which you choose from as you gain piety, but you can never have all of them 13:57:11 so if I pack Summon Hydra, one hydra gets to level up and I can re-summon it when it dies 13:57:20 that sounds cool 13:57:21 s/pack/pact/ 13:57:47 for example, there may be a pact that covers your creatures in an elemental shield; if you are going the familiar route (one good summon) this is useful, but less useful than it is for someone going the screen-full-of-summons route 13:58:56 how do you gain the pacts? Can you swap them later? 14:00:43 I mean, paths that have different progression are cool, paths that give you strong start for a weak late-game or the other way around are not 14:01:00 the original pact proposal i made was for kiku, where it worked like this: there's some order of pacts A B C D E F G and you get them offered in a semi-random order (like A C D B F G E), and must either turn the pact down for good or accept it at a permanent cost (was maxHP, for kiku) - and then wait some time - before the next pact option would be revealed 14:01:39 but i don't think this god needs to be that harsh, because no nec theme 14:02:18 there's no "harsh", there's "is it worth it?" 14:03:07 i think permanent costs are fine, but i don't think all of the pacts need them. with the idea of 'domains' of this god's influence - making pacts with otherworldly beings might be more powerful (eldritch tentacle, SHT), but have bigger downsides 14:03:17 where being a 'ranger' character, with animal/nature companions, has few or no downsides 14:04:03 sounds interesting 14:04:04 also: i definitely feel like this should be a god that affects you, not just your summons; kind of like an 'attune yourself to nature' thing 14:04:24 which makes you better at summoning, but you might end up with - bark for skin, or 'true' natural animals you encounter may become neutral 14:04:35 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:04:47 won (L16 DECj) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,48) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 14:05:18 perhaps the god could be neutral, with the flavor of preferring contemplation, immersion, understanding 14:06:01 the pacts could be flavored as learning 'secrets', 'truths', 'mysteries', etc. 14:11:57 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:15:31 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 14:16:04 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:25:28 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:34:35 damn timezones in far parts of Russia 14:35:27 in soviet russia, zones time you 14:36:18 !tell Zaba how can I tell apart map symbols delve() should possibly dig into from those already clear or those that shouldn't be touched? 14:36:19 kilobyte: OK, I'll let Zaba know. 14:40:15 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 14:49:16 back 14:53:40 kilobyte: no, I don't know about Cryp71c, sorry 14:55:49 is his repository public? 14:56:18 Watching game freezes when you send message to chat in Firefox 6 (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4447) by Letchik 14:57:33 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:02:05 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:06:05 -!- ainsophy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:06:05 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:06:13 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 15:07:41 dpeg_: tell jpeg I'm sorry if I scared her by spectating her webtiles game, I was just trying to test the most recent bug :P 15:07:55 seemed like she logged off awfully fast after I got there :) 15:07:56 she is sitting right next to me :) 15:13:06 all that pact for power stuff really sounds like something that could be stuffed on one of the existing evil gods 15:13:34 unless none of them are anywhere near Lawful Evil or a God Of The Hells or whatever 15:14:02 ussdefiant: well, it was originally devised for kiku 15:14:05 ussdefiant: the original idea was to completely redo Kikubaaqudgha with it 15:14:20 ussdefiant: but now both Y and K work well and are thematic 15:14:33 yes, for all the flak he gets I like yred 15:14:45 weak for extended, but I think that's okay 15:15:18 people tend to yack at me whenever i start a new DsDK about Yred sucking or we 15:15:19 and if the idea is to make the pacts thematic beyond evil things, then I think it warrants a new god 15:15:37 i mysefl have yet to get a single undead pet from Yred 15:15:45 ussdefiant: yred's not exactly optimal for the whole game, but he makes for a fun early game 15:15:54 ??paratrooper 15:15:55 paratrooper[1/1]: 1) Worship Yred. 2) Get a whole bunch of zombies/gifted followers. 3) Lock them in a small room with a door. 4) Walk around unmolested until you see a unique. 5) Call in the paratroopers. 15:16:14 Y works nicely 15:16:25 that doesn't really work given tha they can't follow you between floors? 15:16:31 Wensley: yes, he'S good for the start 15:16:48 ussdefiant: gifts follow 15:16:57 ussdefiant: not too hard to rebuild a zombie army on a new floor 15:17:25 i find i tend to run into uniques when i have an insufficiently killy zombie horde 15:18:16 the zombie change made Yrdy (and also Necromancers) much more playable, in my experience 15:18:35 ussdefiant: the point is to choose the first battles on a level wisely 15:19:47 incidentally, there much of a diff between zombie and skeleton version of creatures? 15:19:53 one thing that we could do is to have the pact god not address undeath at all, and leave undead-summoning spells as the provenance of kiku 15:20:26 sounds good, seeing as how kiku already gifts the only undead summoning spell 15:20:40 see, i was think that Vahamut or Kiku would demand pacts for giving out spellbooks 15:20:52 and, if we're naming allies, yred already names undead allies 15:20:56 Eronarn: I think it is best if the god boosts all kinds of allies, without regard where they are coming from 15:20:59 ussdefiant: that was one of the original things the pact-kiku would do 15:22:22 dpeg_: well, some of the boosts might be generic; but the idea is that there are some branches you can take (the ones i came up with looking at existing spells: undeath, otherworldly, demonic, natural, elemental - this covers most summ spells) 15:22:40 but undeath as a branch, with only the one spell, might not go over so well 15:23:20 Eronarn: I am fine with more specialised pacts 15:23:40 undeath having only the one spell? Which one? 15:23:43 haunt 15:23:52 summon undead is currently a monster-only spell 15:23:55 i can think of Animate Dead, Haunt, Animate Skeleton... 15:24:14 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 15:24:55 those make undead allies, but they aren't summons. which is another issue with buffing all - we'd have three different undead summon friendly gods 15:25:01 animate skeleton/dead are necromancy rather than summoning, and yred and kiku have that arena sewn up 15:25:09 Yred just gives you Animate Dead, that Pain Mirror Thing, the Soul Binding of Undetermined Usefulness, and the occasional random pet, right? 15:25:29 also gives you recall 15:25:37 and mass vampiric draining 15:25:40 buffing spirit summoning, in particular, could be interesting 15:25:49 at the moment, this is just haunt, but it could be other kinds of spirits too 15:26:14 yeah, a lower-leveled undead summoning spell might be cool 15:26:34 I am just playing a serious summoner for the first time, and it's actually pretty interesting 15:26:40 Wensley: could be more than just undead spirits, too - like will'o'wisps! 15:27:03 "summon insubstantial wisps" 15:27:11 (don't do this) 15:27:14 i won't :) 15:27:34 Wensley: It's called Call Imp 15:27:43 call imp is a wonderful spell 15:27:56 constructs would be another fun category 15:28:08 but currently we have no sum spells for them, right? 15:28:41 "summon orb of fire" 15:29:05 Earth/summon, turn a large rock into an elemental. 15:29:16 a summon statue spell might fill a unique niche 15:29:25 elementals are non-living, but they aren't really constructs 15:29:29 they're... elementals 15:30:09 Eronarn: get on that "summon swamp" idea that's been sitting in the docs for ages 15:31:02 don't really have the time to make complex spells, sorry 15:53:17 -!- dtsund is now known as Kalir 15:53:38 -!- Kalir is now known as dtsund 15:54:56 -!- edlothiol has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:45 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 16:39:30 won (L17 DECj) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 104: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,48) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 17:05:59 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:06:59 random ziggurat wall colouring (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4448) by dpeg 17:08:38 hm, search doesn't recognize distance correctly from the vestibule 17:18:03 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:18:24 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 17:18:39 -!- dpeg_ has quit [Quit: zzz] 17:26:55 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:34:07 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:35:58 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 17:37:15 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:43:27 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 17:57:42 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 18:14:59 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 18:17:20 -!- Garhauk has joined ##crawl-dev 18:17:30 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:19:13 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:28:21 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 18:33:47 -!- jlewis has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:42:40 -!- jlewis has joined ##crawl-dev 19:13:52 -!- syllogism has quit [] 19:15:41 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:42:09 -!- ainsophy_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:00 -!- st__ has quit [] 19:51:08 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 19:53:11 -!- GreatZebu has joined ##crawl-dev 20:05:55 -!- MakMorn has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:19:28 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 20:25:38 -!- MarvinPA has quit [] 20:44:19 -!- MakMorn has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:57:18 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 21:32:33 -!- ainsophy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:34:37 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:37:39 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 23:20:59 -!- MakMorn has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:33:38 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 23:37:52 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 23:43:19 -!- ainsophy_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:46:17 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:49:19 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]