00:03:13 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13:59 -!- Guest61102 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:14:15 -!- Guest61102 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:16:39 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]] 00:30:11 so that sweer map that is sort of an island in the middle of a big lake, with purgy, and a bunch of levetation potions, is there any other stashes in there? wondering if i shoudl quaff some potions to explore the corners 00:30:59 oops wrong channel :) 00:35:27 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-244-gd5e6ac3 (32) 00:48:31 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:49:15 -!- Danei has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:54:54 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 01:26:27 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:28:13 -!- Danei has joined ##crawl-dev 01:36:10 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:38:42 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 01:46:31 bhaak, ahh, thanks for the message! 01:56:58 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 02:05:52 cbus: np 02:06:25 for the fighters of a 256 color version, vanilla angband had optional 256 color display for a while 02:07:18 and i just noticed that they switched to 256 color default with angband 3.2.0 (released around dec 2010) 02:07:42 more surprising, judging from their faq, they have NO fallback 02:12:13 It also doesn't output to the terminal. 02:13:02 hmm? 02:13:48 I've played both the Windows version and compiled the Linux version from source; neither appears to run natively in the terminal window 02:15:17 Mind, I'd be in support of a 256-color option. 02:15:19 i wouldn't even try to use the windows console for anything more complex than printf. the horror what the nethack devs have done to use it ... 02:15:34 heh 02:16:01 iirc, if you compile angband with autoconf, it compiles in support for all guis it can find support on your machine and then the default is sdl 02:16:17 you have to add a command line option to confine it to the terminal 02:16:21 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:16:31 Hah. That'd explain things. 02:17:03 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:17:49 looking at the source, it seems they 'only' use 28 different colors anyway 02:18:37 haha 02:19:20 but it's vanilla, what do you expect? :) 02:19:44 heh, I don't know what to expect from angband at all. Never even played it... 02:21:26 You can live a long and satisfying life without playing Angband. 02:21:41 I guess 02:21:55 Okay, okay, the early and midgame are kind of fun in its own way. 02:21:55 it's been ages since I've last played crawl, too 02:22:05 (debug-mode testing of things doesn't count) 02:22:30 that happens a lot to developers of things 02:22:48 developing is obviously much more fun than playing it :) 02:22:51 I've never been good at crawl anyway 02:23:11 or any other roguelike, for that matter 02:24:18 that is not unusual. most chess programmers also never are grandmasters 02:26:13 with software development there is usually no correlation between the skills needed to building and doing something :) 02:26:38 well, yes... especially considering how I've mostly just refactored stuff 02:31:29 you should play angband if only to see how crawl gets some ideas from it 02:32:02 not that crawl is all that anbandy, but it shares some concepts 02:45:36 hi 02:47:45 moin due 02:47:50 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:48:03 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: something happened] 02:50:47 hi zaba! 02:51:40 due, there appears to be something wrong with volcanos' fog generators. They're routinely overdoing it, or something 02:52:19 due, Mu replaced the large volcanos with smaller ones some time ago because of that, and apparently there are still some issues.. 02:55:31 hm 02:57:19 -!- Galefury has joined ##crawl-dev 02:57:35 due, the result appears to be that the volcano overflows the whole map the moment you enter 02:57:40 at least for some vaults 02:58:42 I don't know, but that sounds rather unintended :P 03:00:12 spiders_nest_spider_trap can trap the player (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4395) by galehar 03:00:33 Odd 03:00:54 Did the cloud max get increased? 03:01:10 I don't remember what cloud change caused it 03:01:50 Well, overflow like that implies that either the parameters for fog machines have been tweaked -- or spread rates or something -- or the maximum cloud number has increased so there's bigger coverage and therefore larger spread... or all of the above. 03:01:56 I'll need to play through them and re-balance. 03:03:38 hmmm 03:04:35 that SUBST in spiders_nest_spider_trap is very dodgy indeed. 03:06:00 I'm sure as hell that wasn't intended 03:16:36 03zaba * rb4fdb2576d5b 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/spider.des: spiders_nest_spider_trap: Never block the path with deep water. 03:22:04 oh jeez 03:30:21 dots can be turned into deep water too 03:31:14 galehar, nope 03:31:52 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 03:31:54 galehar, . = WW. happens after W = Ww 03:32:11 galehar, SUBST is performed in the order it's written in 03:32:20 oh, so it can only turn into shallow water then? 03:32:21 good. 03:32:28 yes 03:33:12 SUBST: . = WW., ..., W = Ww would be completely different, and very broken. :) 03:33:49 unless there'd be a lua veto check for connectivity, or something, but that'd result in the vault getting vetoed most of the time and never appearing in game. 03:53:10 -!- cesium has joined ##crawl-dev 03:57:16 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 04:01:53 anyone mind if I change the monster wound description to a linear scale? 04:02:29 currently, thresholds are 1/6 (0.17), 1/4 (0.25), 1/3 (0.33) and 3/4 (0.75) 04:02:51 let's move to 0.2, 0.4, 0.6, 0.8 04:02:53 yes please! 04:06:07 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:06:43 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:08:48 -!- dtsund has left ##crawl-dev 04:17:46 -!- petete has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:19:59 -!- st_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:20:26 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:35:56 it'd be an interesting idea to write a lua connectivity check, then just brute-force run a few thousand maps and see if it chokes on any of them. 04:38:27 another possibility would be a lua connectivity check to reject a vault, but also rig it to autosubmit a bug report :V 04:59:25 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 05:03:38 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:10:29 ZorbaTHut, lua connectivity checks are fine as they are, they're simply not a substitute for proper vault design. 05:10:31 -!- Galefury has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:15:50 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 05:21:09 Lua connectivity checks are useful for those few vaults where you don't want to be /too/ anal about substitutions and so-on -- it gives flexibility of design, requiring slightly less code and fore-thought for the simpler maps. 05:21:15 It shouldn't be relied upon, though. 05:21:31 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:30:27 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:35:22 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 06:04:45 -!- dpeg has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:04:58 -!- kilobyte has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:04:58 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:04:58 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:05:48 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:05:48 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:15:50 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:16:34 -!- Letchik1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:16:52 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 06:20:33 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 06:25:50 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:30:07 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 06:36:10 03galehar * r6beb4e7c9105 10/crawl-ref/source/command.cc: Fix bad formatting of the list jewellery command. 06:36:18 03galehar * rca70d90697b6 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/dlua/lm_toll.lua: Fix Ziggurat shopping list prompt before screen redraw (#468). 06:36:33 I've fixed a 3 digit mantis. And it was a single line commit :P 06:41:37 galehar_, hm.. did you look into #4393? 06:42:01 galehar_, I know it's caused by the fact the malign gateway is marked solid, and it disappears when the tentacle is killed by the beam, but I'm not sure what the best fix would be.. 06:43:08 haven't looked into it yet 06:43:36 will do 06:44:42 -!- galehar_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:54:41 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:04:11 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 07:10:23 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 07:11:50 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:15:23 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:27:58 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 07:59:50 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 07:59:51 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:03:22 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 08:04:24 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:04:51 -!- bhaak is now known as kerio` 08:05:02 -!- kerio` is now known as bhaak 08:07:10 Zaba: I've looked at #4393. I think the proper way to handle it is to postponed the removal of the portal until after the beam, or even at the end of the turn. 08:07:39 You shouldn't be able to fire through it if you kill the tentacle. 08:14:53 -!- Letchik1 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:15:57 -!- Letchik1 has quit [Client Quit] 08:20:36 -!- Whitewater has joined ##crawl-dev 08:22:43 -!- Whitewater has quit [Client Quit] 08:29:40 or maybe the portal could take a few turns before vanishing, just like it takes a few turn to spawn the tentacle when it's opened. 08:39:56 seems like there's no need to clear the portal in monster_die. The map marker takes care of it (misc.cc:1850) 09:00:13 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:03:06 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:03:34 -!- valrus_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:05:37 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 09:11:21 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:13:46 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:13:52 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 09:14:44 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:14:48 Should one of us comment on the fork? 09:15:47 there was quite some discussion about it in here with dtsund this night 09:15:56 oh! 09:16:05 was it civilised? 09:16:20 but a reply on rgrm would feel more official, ofc 09:16:25 could he be convincend that Crawl is not just for the hardcore edge? 09:16:29 i only skimmed it, but nobody was kicked :-) 09:16:57 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 09:17:00 btw, today I talked to jpeg, and perhaps the scope shold be mentioned explicitly in the philosophy 09:17:04 MarvinPA: hi! 09:17:45 "Crawl is also developed for the hapless young Facebookers who will never win." 09:18:27 that must have been your idea, jpeg isn't that mean :) 09:18:48 she is a professional developer now, she's way meaner than I am! 09:21:24 i think, his main claim is that it tends to go into the hardcore player direction more and more. but he also wants to make the game shorter, which afaik is not something you would consider? 09:21:37 dpeg: dtsund said he's willing to put together patches if we see something we want in DCSS. 09:21:43 hey, it was my idea to shorten the game :) 09:22:01 Keskitalo: awesome! You've been around when he was here? 09:22:09 Nope, I just started to read the backlog a bit. 09:22:27 bhaak: seriously! Lair, Hive, Elf, all shorter now. 09:22:57 * bhaak looking up from way below at the giant that crawl is 09:23:15 what does that help, if the hair is shorter! i don't see it anyway! :) 09:23:22 :) 09:23:28 I agree it's awesome. (: 09:24:09 Our approach is very conservative, cutting about 2 levels per version, but why do we have to cut harder? 09:24:27 The more pressing question is whether levels should become smaller. 09:24:54 ha, something i have a well founded opinion on: 09:24:55 dpeg: Where does jpeg work btw? 09:25:02 I never asked. :P 09:25:12 coding an crpg in Berlin 09:25:33 since i discovered the "don't show me running around when autoexploring" option, i have completely lost any sense of the size of the levels 09:25:35 she is convinced that she only got the job b/c she could say "I coded an orc god" in the interview :) 09:25:39 Ah, crpg, that's cool - Berlin's probably very cool too. 09:25:46 dpeg: I think that's just awesome. :) 09:25:50 Company? 09:25:58 I talked a bit to him about crawl light. He emphasized the difficulty in his rgrm post, but many of his changes have a different motivation. Or so he says. 09:26:09 I have no idea, but if you drop her a line, she will be happy to talk about it 09:26:13 I should! 09:26:20 like reverting the sticky flame nerf is about fire theme, not balance... 09:26:22 galehar: hi! 09:26:46 the SF and SA undos made me think not-so-well of his fork, to be honest 09:27:04 those are changes where everyone can see what they're good for (I thought) 09:27:29 I was quite hostile at the idea at first, but now I think it can be an interesting way to experiment stuff 09:27:44 he wants to remove item identification too 09:27:52 I don't mind the existence of a fork, it is inevitable anyway 09:28:09 I think forks are <3 09:28:17 if we proceed to come up with radical ideas, there must be disagreement and if that leads to a fork, why not? 09:28:24 About smaller levels, I like the idea I read somewhere about having the bottom half of D getting smaller and smaller. 09:28:31 dpeg's 09:28:33 galehar: my idea! :) 09:28:35 I like that too 09:28:46 A good way to "shorten" D without losing "27" 09:28:53 I am sure that portal vault maps should generally be small. 09:29:24 The first Sewers were amiably tiny, but now we also have some huge ones. They can be salvaged with just some editing, though 09:30:14 Hehe, remember the first Ice Caves? 09:30:18 yes! 09:30:28 how about D:14 being a special level, with full (or almost full) level thematic vault, difficulty like snake:5 or swamp:5. And you show a rune to go below. 09:30:33 We got seven maps out of two maps. 09:30:35 and then levels start getting smaller. 09:30:59 galehar: will be interesting to see about his id approach. I believe it is interesting in Crawl (I know I often die b/c I didn't care enough about use-id). John H. thinks the id-game is crucial to the genre, the old Nethack-head. 09:31:16 galehar: sounds wonderful to me 09:31:35 Ah, the rune lock idea? It got a good amount of opposition before (I thought the arguments were good too, just forget what they where), but I still do like it myself. 09:31:39 hm, i quite liked the change of late D levels having a high chance of big/full-level vaults, would that still fit if the levels shrink? 09:31:57 right now the vaults often make things quite a bit more interesting, at least 09:32:14 Ah cool, we got 0.9 out! 09:32:20 Thanks to due and Eronarn for the blog post! 09:32:28 Keskitalo: later portal vaults can be bigger, but early on I don't want players to invest 30 minutes into a side-quest, when they may die just on the next D level. Also, an early vault shouldn't better than one normal D level (of its depth) in loot and xp. 09:32:56 MarvinPA: big vaults can override the native size. 09:33:11 Keskitalo: we got 0.9 out and we didn't even tell anyone! 09:33:16 or maybe we can move them to V 09:33:35 Do we need a marketing department? 09:33:47 galehar: I think having big vaults would be ok. 09:33:53 yes, late D vs V differentiation is still open -- although there are ideas 09:34:23 if D levels are smaller, we can have more melee threat in D and more ranged ones in V 09:34:36 Ah, here's the rune lock page: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:hopping 09:34:37 Keskitalo: yes, seems like it. The tournament is not announced on the CAO or CDO homepages. 09:34:48 I think I still haven't posted the comments I had, will do it some time. (: 09:35:01 got a bit more time these days? 09:35:22 Actually, I don't like most of the ideas on the hopping page. They are too complicated. I'll add mine. 09:35:28 Nah, but September looks like it might get easier. 09:35:41 Keskitalo: btw, now that you're around: what do you think of giving Monks some starting piety (when they pick up their first god)? Sort of the transcendental counterpart to their UC feats. 09:36:44 dpeg: I don't feel strongly either way. 09:37:06 Not sure if that'd make me play Monks, really. :P I notice that I don't. 09:37:36 But, a background that gets that kind of a flexible head start into religion doesn't sound that bad. 09:37:45 Throw it in and see what happens. 09:38:00 gotta find me a coder :) 09:38:03 dpeg: I like the idea. It's original and fits with what a background is supposed to be (starting pakage) 09:38:10 hey, I got one! :) 09:38:11 It's probably about a one line change. :P 09:38:40 Or hm, guess not. I figure you need a god to have piety? 09:38:44 always more than that: description, perhaps ^ screen; should **.... be displayed in darkgrey when no god etc. 09:38:54 Yeah, but that's not really coder-coding! 09:39:15 Keskitalo: oh, that is easy: you check if Monk && no god before then starting piety := 60 09:39:29 but all the care around it 09:39:40 galehar: in contrast to what I said on the forum, Xom should be fair game 09:40:06 he should treat Monks as quality toys (i.e. set starting mood to something better than usual) 09:41:22 dpeg: write an implementable on mantis to try to fish a wanabee dev with it 09:41:30 if you don't catch anything, I'll implement it :P 09:42:08 oh, btw did you review the functional changes introduced by ryak's implementation of the food reform? 09:42:12 cool, will do 09:42:29 merci 09:42:50 I turned both proposals into tables for comparison purposes 09:43:06 his misses quite a bit, but I cannot judge how bad this is 09:43:15 and I looked at the tables for quite a while 09:43:22 Got to go, see you! 09:43:23 will make a comment in his patch 09:43:25 bye 09:44:21 oh speaking of implementables, i remember there being some xom ideas in an email thread a while back 09:44:37 hey guys 09:44:50 hey Napkin 09:44:53 All hail the Nappy King! 09:45:03 MarvinPA: can you dig them up? 09:45:09 MarvinPA: yeah, would be great to make Xom a bit nicer 09:45:40 :) 09:45:44 How's it going? 09:45:47 was it in kilobyte's long mail about many god changes? 09:46:00 possibly 09:46:07 Napkin: we missed you! 09:46:10 Napkin: we thought we wouldn't make it without you 09:46:10 btw "fork"?! 09:46:22 Napkin: yes, it is recommended to eat with a fork 09:46:24 dtsund made a crawl variant 09:46:28 :D 09:46:55 I read 0.9 is released! so you didn't really need me :) 09:47:24 yeah, it was in that long mail with lots of god suggestions 09:47:28 well, I think it's not properly installed on CDO, and you can't play the tournament with webtiles 09:47:57 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 09:48:15 i think the main idea was instead of xom having ticks every x turns where he can act, have him check tension every turn and be much more likely to act when tension is high 09:48:50 since the tension actions are the far more interesting ones, unlike low-tension stat drain and miscasts which get pretty tiring 09:48:57 http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=27608444 09:49:01 MarvinPA: yes, that is a good concept 09:49:06 -!- Napkin has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:49:17 that's the one 09:49:26 * let's remove Xom ticks, making him check tension every turn. The chances of acting would greatly increase when there's action around, without affecting whether the act is good or bad. 09:49:26 * reduce or remove draining and stat loss, it's most of what he does 09:49:37 MarvinPA: actions at certain ticks was old style, when we made Xom aware of tension, it'd have been better to go the full way, as proposed by Adam 09:50:57 could someone more qualified than me make that into an implementable? :P 09:51:04 will do :) 09:51:12 awesome :) 09:51:21 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 09:51:28 hey, now that 0.9 is out, it's officially the end of dpeg's break ;) 09:51:32 back to work man! :P 09:52:03 -!- dpeg is now known as slavepeg 09:52:07 lol 09:52:34 regarding 0.10 goals, we should tackle the abyss. We now have a morphing abyss, and I will soon make the morphing speed dependent on the time spent there. 09:52:41 -!- slavepeg is now known as dpeg 09:52:52 then, we can make monster spawns depend on abyss speed 09:53:00 good 09:53:07 what should get priority on updating CDO? 09:53:22 I think webtiles 09:53:25 galehar: are the morphing variables saved? 09:53:45 hmm don't know 09:53:48 Napkin: by the way, 0.9 saves are still compatible with trunk, both ways 09:54:25 no promises, but jpeg still likes the gold god very much, so perhaps... 09:54:59 great, kilobyte :) 09:55:30 i'm rather worried, that sequell has to be adjusted for the new 0.9 logfiles/milestones 09:55:32 kilobyte: we just need to save abyssal_state if game is saved in the abyss, right? 09:56:00 i read in my backlog, that you gave me administrative access on CAO, rax? :-O 10:00:03 napkin: when updating CDO, it is important that the current 'trunk' saves not get converted to 0.10... they can be converted to 0.9 or left as they are, but if they change to 0.10 then that will mess with the tourney 10:00:46 Napkin: Yes. If you don't want it, I can take it away. ;) 10:00:48 rax: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 10:00:51 !messages 10:01:06 we could wait with updating CDO until after the tournament? 10:01:06 ... 10:01:20 the most important thing is to enable webtiles, imo 10:01:50 (1/2) elliptic said (6d 23h 1m 41s ago): Let me know when would be a good time to try to set up the tourney scripts on CAO; it shouldn't be hard but there isn't much time remaining before the tourney. 10:01:58 heh, old message 10:05:15 dpeg: not updating CDO console would probably be the safest/least-confusing-to-players thing for the tourney, yeah 10:05:56 elliptic: interestingly narrow leading group this time, btw. Someone made good rules! 10:06:59 -!- ussdefiant has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:13:20 Oh my god the clan names this year are amazing 10:13:33 -!- herself has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 10:13:51 rax: all those felines? :P 10:14:03 (and yes, elliptic, I love what you did with the tournament rules!) 10:14:17 "i wish i was a little bit crawler" is also _gold_ 10:16:37 glad people like the rules :) I'm not that sure I'm that happy with the new species/class rules (different issues from the ones I tried in the may tourney), but aside from that things seem to be working well for the most part :) 10:17:07 elliptic: those look a bit technical, indeed. But there will be another tournament which needs rules! 10:17:30 elliptic: I never asked: did you also look into how non-winners will make points? 10:18:52 I haven't really touched how non-winners make points... that would certainly be something to look into for future tourneys 10:19:49 currently non-winner points come mainly from uniques and combo high scores 10:19:55 yes 10:19:56 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 10:20:03 we can probably throw them some more bones 10:20:08 I made a few commits which would be good for 0.9 but I was afraid of breaking anything right as the tournament started. Should I pick 875129a2 and d647f488 for 0.9 now? 10:21:52 -!- Letchik1 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:22:42 0.9 commits currently affect people playing in tourney on CDO but not on CAO, I believe... which is not good for anything important, like d647f488 10:23:26 ok. So let's keep the branch as is for now, and we'll release 0.9.1 after the tourney then 10:23:29 Yeah unfortunately because we had to manually install 0.9 on CAO, we don't get automated updates. I can do a new pull and build every couple of days, but I can't respond lightning-quick to that sort of thing, unfortunately. :/ 10:23:47 galehar: yes, probably safest 10:24:02 d647f488 is really a new feature anyway, I'm not sure it makes sense to toss it in 0.9 at all 10:24:09 rax: would you mind to add a link to the recent tournament on your page? 10:24:18 ...it's there I think? 10:24:21 Unless you mean a different page? 10:24:47 I see three links to the August tournament, it's mentioned in news, the Javascript widget got updated... 10:25:16 Do you mean something other than the front page of crawl.akrasiac.org? 10:25:38 no, I mean that, it is my entrance to all crawling 10:26:02 I think that has what it should, except that the Windows and Mac version download links are stale. 10:26:10 I still see the information about the MAy tournament 10:26:28 Clear out your cache. :) 10:26:53 rax: hey, that must've been a recent change :) Thanks! 10:27:12 It was before the tournament! 10:27:13 CAO website looks good to me, it might be good to link to the tourney on the CAO section of the sidebar on the CDO site though? 10:27:18 But not very far before the tournament. ;) 10:27:38 * dpeg curses his slug-like cache. 10:28:43 You might want to disable Gastronok mode. ;) 10:28:50 -!- ussdefiant has joined ##crawl-dev 10:31:57 -!- Letchik1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:33:40 -!- Letchik1 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:40:47 dpeg: have you looked at the junethack post mortem? any additional numbers you want to see? 10:41:36 yes, looked great! 10:41:43 and no, enough numbers for now :) 10:42:15 bhaak: you'll do this yearly? Was lorimer involved in the planning, or is paxed speaking for Spork? 10:42:39 actually, i didn't want to get involved ... but i kinda fell into it 10:43:18 * lorimer whacks dpeg in the junk 10:43:20 I HEARD THAT 10:43:30 Jesus, the man hears everything 10:43:33 anyway, probably both 10:43:34 lorimer did fix some setup on sporkhack.com, so we could get at the user config files. but besides that, he did nothing :) 10:43:44 bhaak: would've been a pity to have your fork not take part 10:43:51 yep, it was an itty bitty non-loaf 10:44:17 Did you get feedback, now what players are exposed to all the variants? 10:44:31 dpeg: that was not the question, junethack can use any public server online, as long as the user config files and the xlogfile is available 10:44:47 i meant, that i didn't anticipate to do any coding for the junethack server 10:44:59 ah, I see 10:45:08 hi 10:45:19 bhaak: lolo 10:45:28 bhaak: nice statement regarding waiting times in the rgrn summary, too 10:46:02 i like how you were so frank about how we had to delay because we develop slow :) 10:46:04 -!- Letchik1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:46:12 ais523 said i got passive-aggressive against the devteam. then i can enjoy it, too :) 10:47:02 well, the #1 question in the non-existing faq would have been "Given the name why is this tournament not happening in june?" 10:47:07 bhaak: I believe every NH forkist has every right to be passive-aggressive towards the NH devteam. 10:47:10 yea 10:47:29 bhaak, I was wondering, any way to generate a static pageset? 10:47:37 I don't want to have to keep up the expensive server 10:48:36 curl and wget have mirroring options... 10:48:51 heh 10:49:02 that's not generating :P 10:49:14 it works though 10:49:39 dpeg: during the tournament there were several people on IRC obviously enjoying the variants. also, there seem to have been also more people recommending variants. we'll see if that is a lasting effect 10:49:56 would be cool, best way to keep NH alive imo 10:50:13 wget -r running :P 10:52:40 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:01:54 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:02:18 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 11:06:39 -!- hoody has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:07:07 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:34:37 are minotaurs supposed to get hurt by silver? 11:36:17 Webtiles tournament ready yet? 11:36:36 -!- dtsund has joined ##crawl-dev 11:42:45 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:48:06 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 11:58:14 Feature Request - Track Spell Usage for Morgue (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4396) by XuaXua 12:04:01 Ok guys. That was quite a bit of discussion to read through. 12:04:23 !tell galehar I'd be up for doing the monk stuff dpeg suggested 12:04:29 ghallberg: OK, I'll let galehar know. 12:04:38 cbus: no 12:05:03 ghallberg: hey, cool! I'll still type up the implementable? And did you read the discussion with dtsund? 12:05:08 dpeg: About dtsunds removal of id, I'd been thinking of simplifying it at some point. 12:05:20 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:05:31 ghallberg: I'll have to read it, too. 12:05:53 dpeg: I was here when he first came in to talk about it then I had to leave. 12:06:05 But read through the rest of it now. 12:06:10 Interesting points. 12:06:36 I think D:14 being hard is a nice idea, but I don't really like it needing a rune. 12:06:47 Or well, maybe... 12:07:07 ghallberg: is the last or the second to last file on tozt.net? And what clock time? 12:07:35 D:14 being hard sounds rather arbitrary, requiring a rune even more so 12:07:37 dpeg, they do anyway :) 12:07:50 dpeg: I have NO idea what you just asked me about... 12:08:03 Zaba: well, it is halfway through the dungeon. And we can make the level look special. 12:08:23 ghallberg: you just read through the discussion with dtsund? 12:08:31 dpeg: Yes 12:08:32 dpeg, it's not... 12:08:37 ghallberg: where? 12:08:42 13.5 would be 12:08:48 but we don't support floating point depths... 12:08:59 dpeg: I mean the discussion here, in the channel? 12:09:01 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:09:11 Zaba: how? 13 - 1 - 13 12:09:17 oh actually wait 12:09:23 dpeg, it's 1 -- 27. 12:09:31 argh. 12:09:37 ghallberg: yes, didn't you get your backlog from doy's tozt.net archive? 12:09:40 * Zaba should sleep more :P 12:09:44 !coffee Zaba 12:09:47 * Henzell hands Zaba a mug of irish coffee, brewed by Xom. 12:09:53 the numbers, they are confusing. 12:10:03 dpeg: Ah, no I have my irssi running 24/7 so I just scrolled up through the log :P 12:10:04 ghallberg: you might want to take a look at http://tozt.net/crawl to know what dpeg is talking about :) 12:10:23 ghallberg: ah, I see 12:10:30 elliptic: Yeah I got the gist of it at last. 12:11:45 ghallberg: anyway, should I still write the Monk implementable? 12:11:58 dpeg: Yes please, I always need a reminder ;) 12:12:09 * ghallberg is tankspridd. 12:13:58 -!- Guest61102 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:14:18 -!- Guest61102 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:14:30 Anyway, my half baked idea for identification was: You recognise simple enchanted gear you've seen before. 12:14:44 So if you'd seen a +1 Robe, they would auto identify. 12:15:01 Brands never auto-id, nor cursed stuff 12:15:03 * dtsund reads the log too 12:15:31 Removes the tedium of 2000 +1 orc robes but keeps id-game. 12:15:58 you mean over nine thousaaand +1 orc robes? 12:16:01 I just don't feel like Crawl benefits at all from ID-game. 12:16:25 Zaba: Yeah. 12:16:25 dtsund: identifying scrolls and potions is relevant 12:16:27 The game's more or less designed with the assumption that you know ~95% of your items from Lair onward. 12:16:41 because it makes players choose between use/shop/scroll 12:16:57 dtsund, sure, but early game is not irrelevant 12:17:01 it is a mini game for the early game, yes 12:17:30 Yes, it adds decisions to the "hit stuff repeatedly"-boredom of the first few levels. 12:17:32 dtsund, it's where most of the players are :P 12:17:33 And the Crawl ID game is just use-ID, which is basically just a lottery. Truly interesting ID games need some way for the player to get partial, imperfect information... 12:17:40 it is true that the id minigame has a tedious component, like wearing all those glowing/runed robes 12:18:12 dtsund: I am not sure this is true... do you never spend scrolls on items? 12:19:25 I do, when I have spares. But all this means is I effectively get one more of that item to use. 12:19:47 and that you don't risk its harmful effects 12:19:49 And the only time *that* really, truly matters is cure mutation. 12:19:51 which is a pretty big deal 12:20:04 dtsund: lots of people use scrolls on *all* their potions 12:20:06 MarvinPA_: What harmful effects? Only one that could ruin your game is mutation. 12:20:46 Well, maybe curse weapon if you use blunt weapons, but remove curse is common 12:20:50 I am not a good player, but I also use ?id on single scrolls. 12:21:07 and having one less heal wounds early on is certainly relevant 12:21:20 I am a pretty good player, and I just about never ?id scrolls. 12:21:21 also one less speed, one less might, one less berserk, etc 12:21:29 yeah 12:21:50 Getting strong poison/deterioration can be really bad too. 12:21:59 I think identification of weapons/armour plusses could probably be made more interesting 12:22:12 I got stuck with a -1/-3 dagger for 3 levels today... 12:22:23 currently identifying weapon plusses once you've reached lair is a matter of hitting plants 12:22:36 even if you have very low skill 12:22:39 elliptic: shouldn't be like that, yes 12:23:05 could do something where you get one chance to learn the plusses on a weapon for free 12:23:09 when you first see it 12:23:18 this chance depends on your skill in that weapon 12:23:20 * dpeg believes that ?id blinking is one life saving. 12:23:32 dpeg: true 12:23:40 and if you miss that chance, you have to ?id it if you want to know the plusses 12:24:00 At any rate, the 0.2 version that'll feature ID-removal is planned to be highly experimental and likely broken; I'm alternating between 'beta' releases with sweeping changes that might break things and versions that just tighten things up. 12:24:23 It'll be a "throw stuff at the wall and see if anything sticks" version. 12:24:34 dpeg: not wasting blinking is certainly nice, yeah... I find identifying potions more useful in general, but certainly as a mummy I identify scrolls :) 12:24:47 also be aware that some early portal vaults give out very good items (but also very bad ones), not sure those work with full id 12:25:04 removing features should make it easier to work with the code, though, so it's probably a good idea in a fork ;P 12:25:11 elliptic: you can now also waste ?id on decks! :) 12:25:40 right, I haven't yet internalized that that is possible and thus that decks might be useful on non-nemelex chars 12:26:15 anyway, ID certainly isn't irrelevant 12:26:21 dtsund: could they convince you that Crawl is not only developed for the elevated few? 12:27:03 elliptic: but what about giving away armour egos you've already seen? (A bit like with spell staves.) 12:27:29 pigah the Hoplite (L10 MDFi) ASSERT(env.cloud_no == 0) in 'abyss.cc' at line 1363 failed on turn 10667. (Abyss) 12:27:54 dpeg: that wouldn't actually help that much because the problem is distinguishing +1 robes from +2 robes of resistance 12:27:57 Nope. Though I think even earlier versions would be improved with a bit less 'enforced' difficulty that everyone goes through and more 'permitted' difficulty that experts can challenge themselves with 12:28:35 a way to reduce 'collect every glowing robe from orc' would be nice, yeah 12:28:40 dpeg: knowing that something is yet another robe of rN+ isn't that helpful 12:28:55 elliptic: you really do that, just to save two ?EA. 12:28:58 !lm pigah type=crash -log 12:28:59 1. pigah, XL10 MDFi, T:10667 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/pigah/crash-pigah-20110816-172728.txt 12:29:07 dpeg: huh? I meant plain +1 robes 12:29:20 sorry for the confusion 12:29:35 I just got my MDEE's +0 RoR, and I won't pickup any non-randart robe anymore. 12:29:38 yes 12:29:41 I do the same thing 12:30:23 it would be convenient to recognize a second robe of resistance then, but the larger problem is when you *don't* have a RoR yet 12:30:26 dtsund: I believe that DCSS got easier from 0.1 to 0.6 or so 12:30:31 and have to try on all the +1 robes 12:30:54 That actually could be; 0.5 was the first version I played. 12:30:58 elliptic: hm, there was a time when we had to try _all_ robes :) 12:31:10 but there should be an improvement, I agree 12:32:06 Some spells got nerfed in each version, and the AC thing was a drastic nerf. But overall, DCSS has been very mild, imo. 12:32:16 Old Crawl versions were much, much harder. 12:32:31 and things get buffed in each version also 12:32:36 of course 12:32:55 Mostly, from what I've seen, the buffed things are like Zin, where nobody used them because they were so weak 12:33:18 what is wrong with buffing weak things 12:33:20 I am confused 12:33:22 Nothing. 12:33:26 Monk: starting piety (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4397) by dpeg 12:33:31 kiku is an example of this 12:33:32 dpeg: <3 12:33:37 earth magic, too 12:33:42 not used much at all before 0.6, one of the strongest gods after that 12:33:45 if you buff a weak thing that nobody uses, somebody might start using it 12:33:49 ranged combat has been buffed in every single release 12:34:01 But nerfing the strong things and making the weak things usable still generally comes out to a nerf 12:34:48 I'm not sure we've been nerfing the strong things. Not as a general rule anyway. 12:35:12 dtsund: but this is the great wheel of balance. Something will always be on top power-wise. This is not bad, but if we think it is too strong (i.e. so strong that not using it is a challenge), we've got to nerf, no? 12:35:35 ghallberg: we've been nerfing the weak things? Those who cannot defend anyway? 12:35:37 I disagree on the definition of too strong 12:36:05 dpeg: I mean, we've been nerfing a few things that were too strong. Not generally nerfing anything that is strong at all. 12:36:11 dtsund: Examples? 12:36:27 It's not an inherent flaw if something's powerful enough to be a "no-brainer" to use, it's a flaw if it's mutually exclusive with other things, and those fall by the wayside as a result 12:36:39 I see. But suppose there were spoiler lists which tell players that they can surely win by combining methods A, B and C. Then I would expect some nerfs are absolutely necessary. 12:37:05 We can't just buff everything else either, that would just lead to the game being too easy. 12:37:08 Haste is always always always, regardless of how strong or weak it is, going to be a powerful tool, and not using it will be a challenge. That doesn't make it flawed. 12:37:08 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:37:19 It just makes it a staple tool. 12:37:40 dtsund: I think Haste can be properly balanced, so that not every caster will want to use the spell. 12:37:42 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:37:46 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:37:58 If learning Haste prevented you from learning, say, IMB (at random), and nobody ever learned IMB as a result, *that* would be when it's flawed. But the game's not like that. 12:38:04 It is harder to achieve with cheaper buffs like Swiftness. 12:38:15 There's nothing wrong with there being a (small) list of spells that just about every caster will like. 12:38:18 dtsund: staples are boring 12:38:21 dtsund: If we can nerf haste by 25% and it is still good and useful, then it was too good to start with. 12:39:11 ghallberg, you could make Haste give a 20% speed boost and it'd still be decent and useful. That doesn't mean it's something that should be done. 12:39:16 elliptic: How so? 12:39:19 greensnark phrased it once like this: the whole endgame is designed around the fact that the player and the tough monsters are hasted. That's not good, of course, it is the power spiral in action. 12:40:08 dtsund: ...because it makes characters all look the same? 12:40:09 dtsund: Buliding on what dpeg just said. If we nerf haste, then we have the possibility of nerfing end game aswell. 12:40:17 16:49 <+MarvinPA> * let's remove Xom ticks, making him check tension every 12:40:17 turn. The chances of acting would greatly increase when 12:40:17 there's action around, without affecting whether the act is 12:40:20 good or bad. 12:40:23 16:49 <+MarvinPA> * reduce or remove draining and stat loss, it's most of what he does 12:40:42 I'm not sure I agree with that. I 11-runed a berserker once with no means of Haste short of a few potions of speed, of which I drank one during extended. This was in 0.7, back when it was strong. 12:40:50 Would have been 15, but I killed geryon over lava. 12:40:56 and? 12:41:07 obviously berserkers are winnable 12:41:07 zaba, I'm not saying they'd be a substitute for proper vault design. I'm saying that vault designers are human and make mistakes, and this would be a way to recover from those mistakes and record the issues reliably. 12:41:18 Endgame is extremely doable without Haste. 12:41:38 dtsund: You got haste from zerk though, whenever it was necesary. 12:41:49 dtsund: As a pure caster aswell? 12:41:53 Berserking in pandemonium is a decent enough way to die. 12:41:55 you also got unlucky not to get a wand of hasting 12:42:16 -!- Pacra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:42:21 the game being winnable without haste doesn't stop every caster from getting it 12:42:27 it's doable without haste, that doesn't change anything though 12:42:28 ghallberg: No, but I think I could pull it off; I actually don't haste that much. Deflect Missiles is the one I keep active at all times. 12:42:29 and the game is even more winnable without haste now 12:42:34 isn't that a good thing? 12:43:07 I'm still not seeing why you think the haste nerf was bad 12:43:07 The real issue I have with the Haste nerf was more how it was done, thinking back on it, actually 12:43:29 Xom: from ticks to tension (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4398) by dpeg 12:43:31 I recall seeing discussion of tweaking some monster speeds to compensate, and then suddenly right before release it was all reverted 12:43:44 I think Slow is much more attractive as a mechanic than Haste. 12:43:45 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:43:45 what 12:43:50 dtsund: monster speeds were tweaked 12:44:14 most fast endgame monsters had their speed reduced as a result, when was that reverted? 12:44:15 orbs of fire reduced from 20 to 15, for example 12:44:19 it wasn't 12:44:32 MarvinPA_: I could have sworn I saw that in some release notes 12:45:03 some got reduced to speed 9 then went back up to 10 12:45:09 because speed 9 is silly 12:45:12 Bah, I may need to revert the Haste revert if this is the case. 12:45:18 :) 12:45:29 it is the case, we aren't all lying to you 12:45:42 * ghallberg isn't lying, just doesn't know shit 12:46:18 elliptic: Also, a few no-brainer spells doesn't make all casters look alike, they just happen to have some common tools. 12:47:03 dtsund: if you look through the old changelogs, you can see that tweaking spells was always part of the deal. 12:47:18 IMB is in a sweet spot to make it attractive to all sorts, but a necromancer who picks it up and a summoner who picks it up still play very differently 12:47:29 IMB isn't attractive to all sorts 12:47:45 elliptic: but used to be before the range nerf, imo. 12:48:04 probably, that was before my time though 12:48:09 and before dtsund's if he started in 0.5 12:48:20 unless you mean circular ranges I guess 12:48:28 So, uh, webtiles still on track for being tournament-playable...? 12:48:36 Yeah, circular ranges is rather silly 12:48:48 RichardHawk: it will be once napkin sets it up 12:48:55 *with 0.9 12:49:06 Circular range has a bigger impact than circular LOS, and it's not a good one 12:49:06 Don't know about you, but I find it very educative to read through the old changelogs. 12:49:16 * dpeg ties his beard to the bedpost. 12:50:17 Someone who bumrushes a 'taur diagonally is going to suffer just about as much as one charging the 'taur head on 12:50:42 aw goddammit you talked too much again! 12:50:46 Now I have to scroll up! 12:50:54 oh nvm... 12:51:06 But with, say, LCS, direction of approach means the difference between two shots and four 12:51:29 what's the logic behind circular range anyway? I always heard the "why can I hit a monster that's 4 moves away from me straight on, but only 3 moves away from me diagonally" argument, but I forget the counterargument to that. 12:52:09 the LOS issue is complicated and matters probably less than generally expected 12:52:33 I agree that LOS probably doesn't matter, but spell ranges do 12:52:36 i am interested in how it is complicated :) 12:53:25 I'm not aware of any counterarguments other than the aesthetic of circles being prettier 12:53:36 The thing is, with things like dispelling skeletal warriors, the optimal play is to run backward a few turns diagonally so that they're charging you orthogonally, which is just absurd 12:54:00 well I figure there's almost certainly some good reason for it 12:54:04 yeah, the diagonal vs. orthogonal issues are all pretty silly 12:54:34 * Zaba recalls that somebody coded a HexCrawl once. That had none of these silly issues! 12:54:47 elliptic: errors!!1 12:54:49 krel: there isn't, people tested out square LOS+range a year or so ago and people generally liked it 12:55:06 nothing went horribly wrong 12:55:15 ??errors 12:55:24 it was beautiful 12:55:25 Just as long as Euclidean movement doesn't get implemented. 12:55:25 * MarvinPA_ weeps 12:55:27 huh. strange! maybe we should do that in our fork, dtsund? 12:55:30 * dtsund shudders 12:55:51 squarelos[2/4]: Robin account for people who mourn the absence of square LOS. 12:56:06 krel: I'd have tried doing spell ranges at least, but the relevant code scares me. 12:56:18 Or, at least, I recall the code scaring me. 12:56:24 dtsund: it's really not that bad 12:56:43 * dtsund doesn't actually know C++ 12:56:45 when i did it for erocrawl, the outstanding issues were like... a crash bug, one of the spell targeters being bugged, and tornado being bugged 12:56:47 we should really merge squarelos again and have it as a compile-time option at least! 12:56:57 i'm still curious how it's complicated, like dpeg says 12:57:17 because the rest of you are making it seem like squarelos is obviously superior! 12:57:24 (I know C, and Java, but I was kind of muddling through the code here) 12:57:36 (And a few others) 12:57:40 krel: certain people have an unreasonable attachment to inferior LOS and any time squarelos comes up they'll come out of the woodwork to argue against it 12:57:51 dtsund, crawl's code is pretty C-like 12:57:55 I believe that, I'm just curious what their arguments are. 12:58:01 Mostly, yeah. 12:58:10 dtsund, especially the older parts 12:58:16 I was utterly counfounded by things like unwind_bool, though 12:58:24 squarelos is ugly!!!11!1!112""12 12:58:29 'errors' 12:58:37 dtsund, yeah, those are fun :> 12:58:44 dtsund, have to manage all that global state somehow :P 13:00:02 dpeg: I see you didn't like the restoration of SA 13:00:48 -!- Pacra_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:01:00 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 13:02:22 I did have a reason for it, though; if amnesia is limited at all, even if it's common, it's a huge psychological barrier to experimentation for new players 13:02:42 And thus an incentive for spoilers 13:02:45 still limited by finding the spell 13:03:28 if that's your motivation, you should make it actually unlimited :) 13:03:49 I'm considering it. 13:04:17 I... really don't see a problem with optimizing spell lists for branch runs? 13:04:35 It'd be an indirect Sif Muna nerf, though 13:04:53 The opportunity cost for taking [non-Sif Muna god] would go down. 13:05:14 Well... We can buff Sif somehow. 13:05:15 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:05:30 I don't remember that happened to Sifumet... 13:05:48 ghallberg: I'm talking hypothetically here 13:05:54 amnesia ability is not an important part of sif anyway 13:06:17 dtsund: Yeah, so? Just making hypothetic answers :P 13:06:42 Yeah, I think Sif can just take it. 13:10:55 Probably 13:11:23 take it like an abstract concept 13:13:41 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:16:15 -!- moocowpong1 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:36:52 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:40:52 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:50:03 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 13:52:45 just back, had lunch with family 13:52:50 dtsund: still around? 13:52:53 Yes 13:53:37 The point is that the SA effect is not spell material. 13:53:48 Spells should be about tactical stuff, where for example MP matters. 13:54:09 I think I can agree with that, actually. 13:54:27 Amnesia is not like this. Our solution was to replace the spell by finite stuff, so as to increase choices. Another option would be to make amnesia a free ability. 13:54:54 I might just make it so Forget Spell is always in the ability menu, or make spellbook forgetting cost-free. 13:55:32 I am obviously biased, but I think the current choices are decent: you have the scrolls, and you can always use up books. 13:55:56 how does using up the book to forget a spell make sense from a flavor perspective 13:56:05 you tear out the page 13:56:16 and use it in a horrible ritual 13:56:19 the book would still be readable? 13:56:19 oh 13:56:32 * dpeg loves book destruction 13:56:33 the rest of the book commits seppuku 13:56:38 at losing a member 13:56:56 jpeg and I had to suggest Trog's book burning twice until it got in 13:57:27 I like book burning. 13:57:47 If the SA nerf (of mainline Crawl) creates interesting decisions in the long run is a question best asked to elliptic or MarvinPA_. 13:58:42 If amnesia is limited enough to force tough decisions among experienced players, it's so limited as to discourage experimentation among beginners. 13:58:53 it isn't very limited 13:59:09 (Actually, being limited at all discourages it.) 13:59:15 dtsund: in my world, spell slots are an interesting resource. By having only a finite number of changes, it becomes more interesting. 13:59:42 Interesting for experienced players. 13:59:59 Eh. This might just be a difference between Stone Soup and Light, going forward. 14:00:04 New players don't have to forget spells very much, iirc. 14:00:45 dtsund: perhaps, yes 14:00:49 i usually end a game with far more scrolls of amnesia than i'd ever have needed to use 14:01:23 Mu_: of course, you already know very well in advance what the final spell set will look like 14:02:27 i suppose that's true. 14:02:39 i find myself destroying books and using amnesia a lot earlier than i would have in the past when just the spell existed, at least 14:03:03 since i can guarantee that even in the early game i'll have some amnesia available, instead of having to wait until i find the spell for unlimited amnesia 14:03:33 but yeah, i can see the points in favour of just having it as a free ability instead 14:04:02 I do want to prevent things like retreating 'round a corner just to swap out to a different spell, though. 14:04:49 Perhaps having forgotten a spell in the past ~50 turns will incur a half max MP penalty; safe to do in stash, not so much knee-deep in Pandemonium 14:05:43 Voluntarily forgetting would be mentally exhausting 14:05:52 dtsund: you realize it takes substantial time to memorize a spell, right? 14:06:10 forgetting could take time also 14:06:42 True. 14:06:57 your unmemorization is interrupted 14:07:00 Actually, I've learned spells right as an enemy approached me before, it only takes [spell level] turns 14:07:27 So I could see Ijyb at edge of LOS, go "oh, I forgot to memorize Mephitic" and learn it as he walks toward me 14:08:45 Obviously, you can't do that with high level spells, but there are mid level ones that I could see people swapping in and out, like Dispel Undead. 14:11:33 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:14:54 dpeg how do you feel about salamanders in a snake:5 vault 14:15:06 acceptable 14:15:15 Snake:5 needs more variety. 14:15:16 cool 14:15:39 Mu_: we need anaconda snake:5 also 14:15:45 Regardless of which vault you get, it's just the same song 'n' dance with greater nagas 14:16:29 snake:5 has more variety than a lot of branch endings really 14:17:34 it could use more of course, but shoals:5, tomb:3, slime:6 are worse offenders 14:17:47 even a single variant on each of those would go a long way 14:17:52 where by tomb:3 I mean tomb in general 14:18:05 Yeah, Tomb shouldn't be fixed the way it is 14:18:16 i thought there was something special about tomb that meant you couldn't vary it 14:20:33 I thought about new Tomb maps but it is pretty hard to come up with something. 14:20:46 So I resorted to just randomising the maps. 14:21:12 Mu_: yes, they should form three inter-twined pyramid-like levels 14:21:25 (so Tomb:1 the biggest and Tomb:3 the smallest) 14:21:56 the current tomb is so well made 14:22:20 LRD lets spoiled players skip half of it 14:22:33 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:22:50 A note about 256-color. I think many rxvt-users are pretty techy ppl, thus they mostly use the patched 256-color verison of urxvt (like I do) 14:22:56 dtsund: not sure if spoiled is the correct category here 14:23:45 you are advanced if you reach Tomb (when I first got to Tomb, and died, I was completely unspoiled); being there several times and/or using mapping reveals enough 14:25:49 Mu_: yes, current tomb is one of the best vaults in the game for sure... it would just be nice to have an alternative :) 14:26:46 as far as branches go, Orc, Slime, Elf, Shoals, Tomb are fine, and most work is needed for Vaults, imo 14:27:13 you think elf is fine? 14:27:18 I think elf is deathly boring 14:27:21 You think Shoals is fine? 14:27:37 elliptic: has a diverse monster set and an interesting end, yes 14:27:45 elves aren't diverse 14:27:51 it is too long and I believe that item generation should be biased by branch 14:28:16 elliptic: okay, seems I am off 14:28:23 Elves aren't hugely diverse, but they are interesting in that they're casters who aren't also demons 14:28:41 dtsund: yes, I am fine with Shoals. It is a bit rich in threat and xp, that is one gripe. 14:28:44 dpeg: elf has the same sort of issue that a spriggan-based forest would... all the enemies are fragile with similar resists (or rather, lack of resists) 14:28:57 -!- Galefury has joined ##crawl-dev 14:29:02 I think Shoals needs to not break autoexplore/autotravel 14:29:06 why? 14:29:14 Because it's tedious 14:29:36 not everywhere in the game needs to be a good place to autoexplore 14:30:08 My plan for Shoals in Light is to make the tides only make squares alternate between land and shallow water, and increase the frequency drastically, making them a tactical rather than strategic issue 14:30:31 elliptic: I concede that point. Perhaps Elf could benefit a lot from better monster AI? 14:30:56 you could have a lot more variety with a forest though if you weren't constrained to spriggans 14:31:05 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 14:31:10 dpeg: not sure... I think what would help is to come up with some non-elf monsters who could reasonably generate there 14:31:23 all kinds of beasts, maybe some hill giants or vine ogres or something if you want beefy enemies 14:31:23 Mu_: yeah 14:31:29 like elf-dominated golems? 14:31:35 golems could be cool, yes 14:31:51 I think there are some... saw a bunch there recently 14:31:52 vine-monsters could be nice for lair 14:32:12 Can we please remove or do something with newts? 14:32:17 Most boring monster in the game 14:32:28 something needs to be the most boring :) 14:32:42 elliptic: Let Geckos be that then :P 14:32:48 but what about rats 14:32:49 Yeah, I don't see a problem with having a weak monster with no particular abilities. Maybe they could stop spawning as much past like D:2, though 14:33:01 elliptic: Well yeah... 14:33:07 having weak monsters spawn a lot less later in the game is on the todo list, I think 14:33:25 I hope so, I hate them too much. 14:33:49 I think weak monsters serve a purpose, even if it's not through actually threatening the player 14:33:54 Vault:5 filled with newts makes me sad... 14:33:56 They're bad in so many regards: free food, free piety, tactical abuse, tedious travel stoppers. 14:34:43 They serve to underscore to the players how much stronger they are now than they were earlier, which is both satisfying in a way and helps them gauge their power 14:34:47 why is free clean chunks bad? 14:35:01 rawrmage: Because they are free? 14:35:19 If there are too many then it removes the threat of satrving. 14:35:25 rawrmage: the food clock is already punctured and beaten, don't need rats to gnaw it to death. 14:35:41 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:36:07 It also leavens the tension a bit; ideally, you want to have periods of intense difficulty between low points so the player doesn't get exhausted 14:36:12 dtsund: but you get that satisfaction from seeing how trivial ogres, say, become -- there is no reason for rats, newts, goblins and kobolds on D:20 or Vaults. 14:36:39 * dpeg wishes the game never lets up. Unfortunately, the current midgame can be slack. 14:36:55 dpeg: i agree: don't let vampires summon rats/bats after D10 or so 14:37:02 that too 14:37:03 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 14:37:11 Summoned ones are "ok" 14:37:15 I guess 14:40:18 what's the maximum dimensions for a vault again? 14:40:32 Summoned ones aren't as bad because they don't give you chunks or piety 14:40:59 there is no formal limit, iirc 14:43:07 monster summoning needs some thought in general; the current way encourages stair dancing 14:51:23 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 14:55:03 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 14:57:16 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:57:44 bonsoir galehar 14:57:53 moin dpeg 14:57:55 galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 14:58:12 !messages 14:58:13 (1/1) ghallberg said (2h 53m 45s ago): I'd be up for doing the monk stuff dpeg suggested 14:58:19 cool 14:59:59 ghallberg: put a note on the mantis implementable to let others know that you'll be working on it 15:00:39 03galehar * r8ab0833141da 10/crawl-ref/source/tileview.cc: Tiles: fix firestorm targetting. 15:00:45 03galehar * rff0013066a71 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Don't remove the malign gateway portal right when the tentacle die. 15:00:45 03galehar * r7f3f0ed66376 10/crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Use a linear scale for monster wound descriptions. 15:01:24 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 15:04:03 dpeg: thanks for the quick implementables! 15:04:14 that's the least amount of work 15:06:00 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:07:54 I think i found a typo in skills2.cc 15:08:14 Line 92 15:08:17 cathegory 15:08:38 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 15:08:44 's just a comment 15:08:48 galehar: Can't find the issue >.<. 15:08:55 yeah but whatever 15:08:58 dtsund: have you ended up a devteam member now? 15:09:04 Heh, no. 15:09:17 there are a few typos in the comment. I rarely bother to fix them unless I edit code nearby 15:09:53 ghallberg: it is right on top of the list?! 15:10:14 4397 15:10:20 Ah there... 15:10:32 I tried to find it through view issues... 15:12:13 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:32:45 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:33:43 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:50:03 http://pastebin.com/hzdCTFcZ this look ok 15:50:40 think it's been like a year since i last made a vault 15:51:40 that looks cool 15:57:25 Took a break after Ten Rune? 15:57:40 yeah that map took so much work 15:57:57 the room with the rune has quite a lot of fodder in it but nothing that challenging, although it gives a chance for the player to get sniped by any salamanders that happen to spawn with bows 15:57:59 Mu_: looks good 15:58:19 but why, oh why, do vaults _always_ have to be higher than wider? 15:58:39 about 2 months ago i tried making a salamander themed snake 5 map, wasn't any good, but i found that giving salamanders bows made them a bit more flexible 15:58:39 If we'd rotate most vaults, the des files would be a whole lot more readable :) 15:58:57 i think they naturally get a chance to spawn with bows 15:59:05 also, finally finished reading through the ##crawl-dev backlog 15:59:05 yeah 15:59:11 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:59:18 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 16:00:00 is the rune room really not challenging? i could leave the anaconda weight at 10, but that seemed too hard to me 16:01:01 Anacondas hit hard, but have lots of weaknesses 16:01:13 well, black mambas and vipers aren't really tough for someone doing snake 5, usually 16:01:24 anacondas can spawn in there but they have a pretty low chance 16:01:35 http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-gear.cc#line1141 16:01:40 i think giving them w:5 there makes the chance 1/7 per monster 16:01:42 yes, they can have bows 16:02:05 drop viper from the list? 16:02:19 drop viper from the game 16:02:22 imo :P 16:02:35 another thing (dunno if this is a problem) is that the top left room is pretty easy 16:02:48 +1 to dropping viper from the game 16:02:50 the player gets a nice choke point where the door is, where everything can be fought without too much trouble 16:03:12 I think there should also be a watery ending with sea snakes 16:04:12 MarvinPA: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 16:04:49 sea snakes are a shoals monster though 16:04:56 btw regarding giving salamanders bows, i meant explicitly making some of them as "salamander ; bow ego:flame . arrow" or whatever 16:05:01 best not to have overlap between lair branches 16:06:32 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:06:36 ye i got what you meant 16:09:15 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:11:08 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 16:12:58 If the rune room in that vault is too easy maybe make the door size 3 16:13:15 with fast monsters in there that would make it very deadly indeed 16:13:32 the player would have to retreat to the lava pool, at least 16:13:42 although if all of the salamanders are dead, that's a good chokepoint 16:14:46 @??anaconda 16:14:54 heh heh ok 16:15:08 i dont know if its really too easy, anacondas hit very hard 16:15:16 just saying if it needs to be made harder that might work 16:16:31 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 16:18:06 30 damage and 18 speed 16:18:10 is a lot 16:18:41 but can be retreaded from with haste and swiftness 16:19:55 also no ranged monsters means casters can fly over the lava pool and shoot fireballs 16:20:56 but i guess having some useful strategies might be okay 16:21:04 oh, yeah, guess that takes a lot of the challenge out of regular snakes 16:25:30 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:29:35 Promephix the Ruffian (L7 TrCj) (D:5) 16:29:59 !lm * crash -log 16:29:59 1412. Promephix, XL7 TrCj, T:4612 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Promephix/crash-Promephix-20110816-212935.txt 16:33:03 Crash caused by signal #15: Terminated 16:33:24 does that mean he got disconnected? 16:34:22 elliptic: awesome streak 16:34:28 nice god list, too 16:34:53 dpeg you mind if i push this new snake vault 16:35:05 no, go ahead! 16:35:19 oki 16:35:36 thanks for the help tweaking evilmike, Galefury 16:36:12 03Mu * rdf62fc41bc03 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/snake.des: Give Snake:5 a smoking section 16:37:00 dpeg: thanks... I was going to try for the pantheon banner (reach ****** with every god), but it looks like I won't be able to play after friday until the end of the tourney 16:38:14 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 16:38:28 galehar: a disconnect is normally SIGHUP not SIGTERM, unless there's something weird with the setup there 16:38:54 elliptic: hey, you're leading, you cannot run away -- you're our champion 16:40:13 elliptic: anyway, you'll have to tell me at some point whether Ash and Jiyva are competitive 16:40:50 well, I like both of them :) 16:41:27 !lm * t s=god.maxpiety 16:41:28 264 milestones for * (t): 55x Sif Muna, 43x Trog, 39x Okawaru, 31x Makhleb, 22x Vehumet, 18x Kikubaaqudgha, 11x Ashenzari, 8x The Shining One, 7x Lugonu, 6x Nemelex Xobeh, 6x Cheibriados, 4x Fedhas, 4x Beogh, 3x Elyvilon, 3x Yredelemnul, 2x Jiyva, 2x Zin 16:41:52 how to restrict to .9 or .8/.9? 16:42:22 that query was for the tourney (and is just for reaching ****** with a god, not necessarily winning) 16:42:23 ah, the t="this tournament"? 16:42:29 yep 16:42:47 !lm * t won s=god.maxpiety 16:42:48 54 milestones for * (t won): 13x Okawaru, 9x Trog, 7x Makhleb, 5x Sif Muna, 5x The Shining One, 3x Vehumet, 3x Kikubaaqudgha, 2x Ashenzari, 2x Jiyva, 2x Yredelemnul, 1x Elyvilon, 1x Zin, 1x Lugonu 16:42:59 that's for reaching ****** in a winning game 16:43:00 we used to have rune and god stats on CAO, not sure if they're still there 16:43:26 I believe players are pretty conservative.... it will take ages until they accept Zin 16:43:43 that winning list looks really good 16:44:07 !lg * t won s=god 16:44:07 48 games for * (t won): 9x Trog, 8x Okawaru, 7x Makhleb, 5x Sif Muna, 4x The Shining One, 3x Kikubaaqudgha, 3x Vehumet, 2x Ashenzari, 2x Yredelemnul, 2x Jiyva, 1x , 1x Lugonu, 1x Zin 16:44:16 for comparison, that's the god people ended with 16:44:28 but yeah, much better than in the 0.8 tourney :) 16:44:38 !lg * t11a won s=god 16:44:39 233 games for * (t11a won): 53x Trog, 26x Makhleb, 24x Okawaru, 22x Vehumet, 20x Sif Muna, 19x Kikubaaqudgha, 19x Ashenzari, 14x The Shining One, 9x , 9x Nemelex Xobeh, 5x Lugonu, 4x Elyvilon, 3x Zin, 2x Xom, 2x Jiyva, 1x Cheibriados, 1x Yredelemnul 16:44:48 ^^ 0.8 tourney 16:45:21 Fedhas and Chei are left out 16:45:46 yeah, no wins yet this tourney with them 16:45:53 also no beogh 16:46:20 shouldn't interpret this as too weak right away, I think 16:46:59 right, it means more that they aren't popular than that they are weak, I think 16:47:27 ely/yred/jiyva/zin are similarly unpopular 16:47:48 I understand for Zin with the sad history, don't understand for the others. 16:47:53 anyway, there will be more significant data at the end of the tourney :) 16:47:59 well jiyva is also harder to access 16:48:02 yes, will be fun to evaluate 16:48:07 yeah, jiyva makes sense too 16:48:20 cheibriados is actually kind of popular among certain players, they just dont tend to be ones that win a lot 16:48:28 i quite like both ely and zin but the heavy conducts are what puts me off usually 16:48:28 wasn't there a time when players were raving about Chei? 16:48:33 I don't really understand why ely is so unpopular... pacification is really strong 16:48:49 MarvinPA: no using necro? 16:48:51 chei is very popular on SA 16:48:52 yred is unpopular due to the annoyance of herding allies imo, although i like yred just for mirror damage 16:48:56 yeah, and zin's eating conducts 16:48:56 elliptic: yes, same here 16:48:59 (the one ely win above was mine) 16:49:27 yred is unpopular for the same reason as beogh 16:49:37 I guess some gods just don't have strong mulitplicators... players telling other players how to win with them 16:50:10 well, with chei, he can actually make the game harder to win 16:50:10 elliptic: Beogh really needs a second round of care... talked today to jpeg about it 16:50:44 I've been trying to promote ely by copying messages about pacifying nasty stuff like frederick or shadow dragons to ##crawl :P 16:51:00 (of course, nobody's using Xom, but we were expecting that) 16:51:10 good elliptic :) 16:51:41 well, xom can't show up on the god.maxpiety queries up there because he doesn't have piety as such 16:51:44 !hs * t god=xom 16:51:45 135. Gigalith the Spear-Bearer (L12 MiCK), worshipper of Xom, hit from afar by a merfolk javelineer (javelin of penetration) on Shoals:3 on 2011-08-16, with 24591 points after 19527 turns and 1:19:31. 16:51:58 but yeah, he hasn't gotten much play in the tourney I guess 16:52:19 just need a CK nemelex choice :P 16:52:24 :) 16:52:27 he usually seems reasonably popular on ##crawl, so maybe people are just being more competitive and not choosing him 16:52:59 marvinpa: only possibility is KeCK I think 16:53:15 ah, i guess old CKs count? 16:53:20 what is the algorithm behind Nemelex' choice? 16:55:08 i think it's random combos that haven't been won since 0.5 16:55:22 random unviable combos? 16:55:41 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 16:56:22 ah, according to the tourney page: The race/class combinations are chosen by Nemelex from those with the fewest wins in Crawl version 0.6 and newer, with no race or class repeated. 16:56:24 incidentally, we've had 258 players who have played at least one game on the servers since tourney start who have also not played any tourney games 16:56:52 dpeg: random combos that haven't been won online in v>=0.6, trying to avoid repeating races or classes 16:57:12 elliptic: huh? How can you not play any tournament game? 16:57:16 I don't know how many of those 258 players are webtiles users, but that's a lot 16:57:28 dpeg: by playing webtiles or 0.8 or 0.10-a 16:57:29 play any non-0.9 game or play one that started pre-tourney 16:57:35 ah, right 16:57:37 a lot of people dont know there is a tournament going on, so they are playing the wrong versions 16:57:52 zannick: I was only counting people who played games starting after the tourney start, actually 16:57:55 yes, we haven't announced the tournament 16:58:01 elliptic: ah 16:58:15 I think most people in non-webtiles are playing the right version 16:58:22 the crawl.akrasiac.org website sorta says there is a tournament going on, in that it has a countdown thing 16:58:26 but it also says it's for 0.8.. 16:58:26 what is holding us from enabling webtiles? 16:58:39 It days it's for 0.8? Really? 16:58:47 napkin needs to do it 16:59:02 "An unofficial 0.8 tournament is coming up:" 16:59:06 [countdown box] 16:59:17 where by do it I mean update webtiles to 0.9 16:59:18 Did we tell this to Napkin? 16:59:57 he was around earlier today and people told him, but he hasn't said anything in a while 17:00:00 !seen napkin 17:00:00 I last saw Napkin at Tue Aug 16 14:56:00 2011 UTC (7h 4m ago) saying i read in my backlog, that you gave me administrative access on CAO, rax? :-O on ##crawl-dev. 17:00:23 evilmike: Refresh your cache! That was updated a week ago! 17:00:26 !tell Napkin WirmuessenunbedingtWebtilesaufCDOzu09kriegen,esgehtumLebenundTod.DeinDavid 17:00:33 dpeg: OK, I'll let Napkin know. 17:00:35 dpeg: Regarding Elyvilon, the god was indirectly nerfed in 0.9 17:00:36 evilmike: I also missed it! 17:00:44 dtsund: how? 17:00:50 rax: huh, thats really weird, i just did that and its fine now 17:00:50 dtsund: uh, how? 17:00:53 Elyvilon + "Rage was strong, and wasn't "Rage removed? 17:00:57 ely is stronger than ever with easy invoc training 17:00:57 no 17:01:03 only the spell was removed 17:01:05 evilmike: I suspect there is some apache thing I need to frob to beat browsers over the head 17:01:08 and potions of rage are more common now 17:01:14 Oh, I thought all renewable zerk was removed. 17:01:23 Never mind, then! 17:02:18 currently there is one 0.8 game going on CAO and the other fifty are 0.9 17:02:40 there are also a lot of 0.8 webtiles games still 17:02:41 and all 16 games on CDO console are 0.9 17:02:46 yes 17:03:11 I think that if/when webtiles is updated to 0.9, the tourney numbers will shoot up a lot, at least in terms of number of distinct players 17:03:27 yes 17:04:46 Does the first player to solve a Nemelex choice get a bonus? 17:05:07 no, though it triggers selection of the next nemelex choice 17:05:17 yes, I was wondering if there is more 17:05:42 they get a clan bonus for being the first to win that char 17:05:48 and only five people can get the banner/points for a given nemelex choice, so it is good to not be too slow about it 17:05:56 just a random thought perhaps for later: the unlocker could get a bonus which increases with time since the combo was chosen 17:05:58 right, the first win of any combo is 20 clan points 17:06:04 ah, I see 17:06:11 are you expecting the choices to change really quickly? 17:06:21 they've changed fairly quickly so far 17:06:40 we are on the fifth one after less than four days 17:06:45 yes, that is good 17:06:54 I don't think such turnover is necessarily a good thing 17:07:02 in general I'm pretty happy with how it has been working 17:07:07 dtsund: are you playing in the tourney 17:07:11 It means effectively you need to start and win in less than a day 17:07:13 no 17:07:14 Not so far 17:07:15 they stay valid 17:07:22 I thought you had to be one of the first five 17:07:30 Maybe I misread the rules 17:07:34 sure, they don't get five wins in less than a day though! 17:07:38 yes, but you have more time than a day (at least as of yet) 17:07:54 and as things progress, I expect the nemelex' choices to go slower 17:08:10 !won * t 17:08:10 * (t) has won 48 times in 7796 games (0.62%): 5xHaVM 5xTrAs 3xDDNe 3xSpEn 3xVpAE 2xKoGl 1xCeGl 1xCeMo 1xDDBe 1xDDEE 1xDDHu 1xDECj 1xDEWz 1xDrIE 1xDsWz 1xHEFi 1xHaBe 1xHaHu 1xHaWn 1xHuEE 1xKoBe 1xMDBe 1xMDDK 1xMfAr 1xMfIE 1xMiBe 1xMiGl 1xMuFE 1xOgCj 1xOgEE 1xOgSu 1xSENe 1xSpEE 17:08:47 three Ogres, it warms my heart 17:09:01 so far no nemelex choice has been won 6 times and it doesn't look likely HaVM or TrAs will be won again 17:09:16 (no high-level chars alive for those) 17:09:45 I just in general am not fond of badges where the actions of other players block you from getting them 17:10:07 but it is a tournament -- this way there is some interaction 17:10:12 tournaments are supposed to be competitive :P 17:10:15 also there is always a fresh nemelex choice to start 17:10:20 one with zero wins so far 17:10:55 if you don't impose some cap on how many can win, then you get stuff like this: 17:10:55 but zipcode is on the way 17:11:00 what proportion of CAO/CDO players do you think are playing because of the tournament? 17:11:05 !won * t10 ghfe 17:11:05 * (t10 ghfe ghfe) has won 18 times in 1420 games (1.27%): 18xGhFE 17:11:06 btw, I saw jarmok play, in case anyone still remembers 17:11:20 in the recently completed NetHack tournament, about a third of the games on public servers over the time period in question were involved in the tournament 17:12:24 ais523: gauging from the usage statistics of previous tournaments, traffic should be doubled (perhaps a little less this time for bad advertising) 17:12:36 hmm, that seems about right 17:12:50 it'll be interesting to compare this tourney to the NetHack tourney 17:12:50 Is there any way to normalize for New Version? 17:15:34 ais523: hey, we have done exactly this comparison not so long ago! 17:16:04 by the way, the CAO scoring pages currently aren't counting CAO 0.9 games 17:16:10 well, these ones were right next to each other (in fact, they overlapped by two days), and were both on existing public servers 17:16:14 so it might be a better comparison 17:16:22 this means that http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/per-day.html is much lower than the actual numbers, for instance 17:16:27 if anyone was looking at that page 17:17:49 next time greensnark is around someone should ask him if he can fix that (or rax if she is familiar with the scoring scripts) 17:19:06 elliptic: I am looking at that page quite often -- what a relief 17:19:22 so that page is only counting CDO right now? 17:19:59 also it is counting CAO for versions other than 0.9 17:19:59 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:20:03 which is very few games 17:20:35 !lg * src=cao cv!=0.9 rstart>=20110713 17:20:35 300. Eddie the Covered (L7 MDFi), blasted by Grinder (wand of magic darts) on D:4 on 2011-08-16, with 857 points after 2068 turns and 0:17:27. 17:20:53 yeah, it has only counted 300 CAO games since tourney start 17:21:06 perhaps there should be a banner next year for the player who gets the highest score in 4.0.1, "See How Far We've Come" 17:21:09 !lg * src=cao cv=0.9 rstart>=20110713 17:21:09 4162. SamB the Skirmisher (L4 MDAs), blasted by an orc priest (divine providence) on D:3 on 2011-08-16, with 276 points after 2722 turns and 0:12:14. 17:21:20 Wensley: 4.0.1 has been won 17:21:21 4000 games more means 1000 more games a day 17:21:30 dpeg: not in this tourney, I'm guessing 17:21:31 You mean 4.1? 17:21:32 :P 17:21:36 yes 17:21:50 Wensley: no, and I doubt it'll be won again ever 17:21:57 haha 17:22:07 Sort of like how acehack.sovrappensiero.info was running Hack 1.3? 17:22:55 !lg * src=cao rstart>=20110713 17:22:55 4465. OneEyedJack the Sorcerer (L18 DEWz), worshipper of Sif Muna, shot by a yaktaur captain (bolt) on Vault:2 (minmay pinched square) on 2011-08-16, with 198424 points after 62078 turns and 6:01:57. 17:23:09 !lg * src=cao rstart>=20110709 rstart<20110713 17:23:09 3057. Banzaitrooper the Exhumer (L3 MDDK), worshipper of Yredelemnul, blasted by Ijyb (wand of flame) on D:2 on 2011-08-16, with 126 points after 1489 turns and 0:06:22. 17:23:14 elliptic: can you count the total number of players in the tournament? 17:23:34 about 50% more games were played on CAO in the last four days compared with the previous four days 17:23:46 dpeg: sure, do you want the number of players who have played at least one tourney game? 17:23:54 !lg * t x=cdist(name) 17:23:55 7809 games for * (t): cdist(name)=483 17:23:55 that is good, but less than the 100% increase of previous tournaments 17:24:05 elliptic: thanks 17:24:14 !lg * t10 x=cdist(name) 17:24:16 bedtime here, see you later 17:24:17 58428 games for * (t10): cdist(name)=1091 17:24:21 !lg * t11a x=cdist(name) 17:24:21 32655 games for * (t11a): cdist(name)=1523 17:24:39 perhaps during the tournaments the servers could be restricted to *only* offering the tournament version, to both reduce unnecessary load at the heaviest time of the year and to make it clear to unaware folk that something special is happening and that they should participate :) 17:24:43 a lot of work to do to catch up with those, but webtiles itself should add 250 at least, maybe more 17:25:24 we'll have to have a week-long webtiles-only tournament next month to make up the gap in the stats :P 17:25:46 elliptic: you'll see next year: with proper advertisement, many more players are drawn to the tournament 17:25:53 Wensley: haha 17:26:21 we'll have to have some awesome features for them for next year's tournament then 17:26:38 a new version will do, as usual 17:27:28 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 17:27:57 also, I like the idea that was suggested yesterday of making releases in six month intervals at the beginning of february and august 17:29:53 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:20 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 17:34:13 Crawlbuntu 17:34:41 -!- hoody has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:35:52 not august. No mid-summer release when everybody's away on holidays. 17:36:03 15th january and 15th july 17:39:52 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Quit: moocowpong1] 17:42:05 that sounds sensible 17:42:20 also, I think it's good to establish a concrete deadline ahead of time 17:42:40 If you made it the 23 it would be the best birthday gift ever 17:42:52 especially for a project as generally aimless and undirected as crawl :P 17:43:07 (that was a joke) 17:43:41 -!- ainsophy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:45:15 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:51:25 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:57:25 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 18:06:36 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:50 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:20:01 -!- blueDave has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:20:31 -!- edlothiol has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23:13 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 18:26:07 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 18:27:27 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:29:41 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:02:11 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 19:06:44 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:11:56 -!- Whitewater has joined ##crawl-dev 19:13:51 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 19:18:03 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 19:42:21 -!- Whitewater has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:44:13 -!- casmith789 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:53:45 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 20:04:54 -!- Galefury has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:33:29 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:40:25 -!- Mu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:40:35 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:46:12 03dolorous * r0001f4f05afa 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Make Yred's soul enslavement use mons_get_damage_level(). 21:02:35 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:07:15 -!- valrus_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:15:07 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 21:18:43 -!- moocowpong1 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:21:53 -!- ainsophy_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:21 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0.1/20110707182747]] 21:59:23 -!- blueDave has joined ##crawl-dev 22:00:24 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Quit: moocowpong1] 22:30:08 Out of curiosity: why is the sound line in AppHdr.h commented out? Security reasons?