00:03:09 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-1439-gc8ebf02 (32) 00:16:17 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:17:44 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-1439-gc8ebf02 00:47:22 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:47:43 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:55:24 -!- mumra has quit [] 00:57:19 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09:47 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:18:12 Wow, I crashed it. First time that's happened in a while. 01:18:14 ASSERT(x >= 1 && x <= sz.x) in 'libutil.cc' at line 796 failed. 01:19:20 that's not a very useful assert 01:19:30 what were you doing to cause it to try to draw outside of the screen bounds? 01:20:25 It's probably just pissed off because I SIGWINCH a lot 01:20:33 crawl doesn't handle that at all well 01:21:31 possibly 01:25:18 Given that I WINCHed shortly before that, and that I *know* from past experience that crawl doesn't handle WINCH perply, and you say that it's related to screen bounds, it seems reasonable to write it off as that until/unless I get another crash. 01:49:06 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:09:45 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Quit: moocowpong1] 02:12:10 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 02:13:53 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 02:14:29 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:17:00 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:17:41 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:19:07 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:19:16 -!- Wensley_ is now known as Wensley 02:20:54 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 02:24:46 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:35:59 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:49:36 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 02:52:08 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:53:22 -!- twb has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:44:50 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 04:03:24 hrm, I wonder what would be needed to debug those WINCH issues 04:32:06 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.9-a1-1439-gc8ebf02 (32) 04:34:47 mastered shields (from 7 skill) in one turn (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4298) by mikee 04:37:32 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:47:33 uh, oh, petrifying monsters get their damage cut by 3, players don't 04:48:06 (caused mostly by mons->petrified() returning true for ones who are not yet fully petrified) 04:48:23 fixing that has an obvious balance question 04:49:44 do we: a) make monster petrification stronger, b) nerf player petrification, or c) go halfway (damage/1.5 or damage/2) ? 04:51:24 kilobyte: We discussed how catoblepas were kinda wimpy the other day so buffing them would probably be ok. 04:51:59 none of the options above would buff them 04:52:29 :S They petrify stuff? 04:52:38 Or is this just the spell? 04:53:20 Or maybe I misunderstood you :( 04:53:51 player petrification is inconsistent with monsters 04:54:18 players get the /3 damage reduction only when fully petrified, monsters both while petrifying and petrified 04:54:28 When you say monster petrification, you mean monsters that get petrified? 04:54:37 Then I have no idea. 04:54:38 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:00:12 ... oh, monsters lose all EV while petrifying, players don't 05:00:40 every hit is a stab, too 05:00:43 ah 05:00:48 on monsters not players 05:00:56 sounds dangerous to be a monster. 05:01:04 since players are not considered immobile but monsters are 05:01:26 not really, monsters get that /3 damage reduction 05:01:36 ok 05:06:35 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 05:08:35 Gah. I uninstall git because it breaks on the space in 'Program Files', reinstall somewhere else, and now its looking in the old location and even more broken 05:09:17 ahhh Windows :0 05:09:22 msysgit, you mean? 05:09:45 why mikee is still playing 0.9-a1-1393-g1ad32cd on CAO? It has been updated several time since I fixed this. 05:10:05 Or is he reporting a bug which happened days ago? 05:10:31 some players never transfer their saves 05:10:35 kilo: Yeah. 05:11:04 I remember it being kind of madness getting it working a year and a half ago, and I'm pretty much going through the same madness again now ;P 05:11:48 did you try the "full install"? It is broken and the maintainers rejected my bug report. Only netinst works. 05:11:50 can we remove the 1393 version from the server to force players to upgrade? Because this bug is horrible. 05:12:09 on CDO yeah, I have no access to CAO 05:12:24 who does? rax? 05:12:34 rax, (? Napkin) and greensnark 05:12:56 kilo: Ah huh. So I originally installed plain git because basically everything indicated I should get that; others corrected me hhere earlier today, and I tried the net-install version, but that breaks on install. I then tried the full-install version, 05:12:58 Twinge: Git works fine in Program Files (x86) here 05:13:06 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:13:08 which seemed to work fine except that it choked on the space in 'Program files' 05:13:12 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 05:14:02 ivan: When I tried to compile it broken halfway in; looking it up everything basically said to move it out of program file. Which is even odder since plain git (rather than msys) installs to Porgram files by default :P 05:15:01 plain git can work on Windows? I just use the msys-git installer 05:15:11 When I try to do the net install it complains about a missing libiconv-2.dll three times and then asks for an HTTP proxy 05:15:45 no, I have no access to CAO 05:15:46 ivan: Sorta. It works enough to make patches, but the 'make' command doesn't work at all. 05:16:22 Twinge: these two are pretty distinct. You may install git the version control by itself, msysgit is a fork of msys that just happens to include git. 05:17:03 I normally do the "install this if you want to hack on git" 05:17:10 it has a compiler and so-on with it. 05:17:11 Does Lee's Rapid Deconstruction get no proper damage bonus on petrified monsters? 72 Int/27 Spc/27 Earth LRD barely scratches a petrified Azrael. 05:18:35 kilo: Huh. It is confusing, to say the least :P But yeah, trying to figure out how to tell it to look in the right directory now instead of one that doesn't exist; I found a git config file but it doesn't have pathing. Maybe the registry? Hrm. 05:19:46 -!- elderman has joined ##crawl-dev 05:21:02 it drops some files into the root of your Windows profile (C:\Documents and Settings\Twinge, C:\Dok\Twinge, C:\Users\Twinge, or the like, depending on version of Windows) 05:23:03 Yeah that's where I found .gitconfig, but that only has my name/email settings not a directory or anything 05:30:54 !tell rax can you remove the 1393 version from cao? It has a quite nasty bug. 05:30:54 galehar: OK, I'll let rax know. 05:35:53 when a summoning spell fails to create any monster, it still uses turn and mp. Is it ok to make them abort with no cost or is it abusable? 05:37:08 too abusable 05:37:15 or 05:37:20 do you mean abort, but still take up a turn? 05:37:42 how come? The only thing is detecting submerged monsters, and that's really far fetched. 05:38:06 eh no, wait... they'd unsubmerge when one of your summons comes near anyway 05:38:46 so I can't think of any abuse at all 05:38:51 yeah 05:39:01 i thought you meant not take up a turn 05:39:34 or are we talking about "there's too muc hstuff on the scren, I can't find somewhere to put a summon"? 05:40:57 due: yeah, I mean abort with no turn and mp cost when monster creation fails, which should only happen if there's too many monsters on the level or no habitable cell in LOS 05:41:34 like casting spammal while levitating over the sea 05:43:08 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: :(){ :|:& };:] 05:44:18 summoning has a range of 2, right? 05:52:03 yes 06:00:10 due, galehar: any ideas what to do with player vs monster petrification _in progress_? Monsters get /3 damage (like fully petrified), 0 EV, every hit is a stab, can't move -- players get full damage, full EV, only a slowdown. 06:03:34 galehar: Does it only summon monsters into LOS nowadays? 06:12:10 Keskitalo: I think so 06:12:12 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:13:00 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:13:01 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:16:30 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 06:57:15 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 06:58:32 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 06:59:08 New skill auto-training isn't greedy, is it? 06:59:53 what I mean is: partial training is useless, so any sensible training should try to bump a single skill by a full level before training any other skill at all 07:01:13 good point 07:01:32 currently you benefit from micromanaging this 07:01:34 Then you have to decide when to not just train the cheapest skill, so you weight them, so doesn't it work out the same? 07:02:23 the order doesn't matter, and skills have various usefulness 07:03:17 if skill B costs 5 and skill A 1, you might still want to have B 1/6 of the time rather than A 5/6. 07:03:35 kilobyte: What I really need to do is analyze all those morgues you sent me to figure out optimal (or at least non-degenerate) training orders 07:06:37 I don't know if you'd want manual mode to be able to take a list like A1, A2, B1, A3, C1, B2 since that's pretty micromanagey. 07:06:59 But if people will turn off all but one to get the same effect, it'd be easier. 07:07:18 Fyren: nah, I want to look at all the won games and have that automatically generate an 'optimal' skill tree 07:08:00 If you go by "skill order most common in winning games" you take away player judgment. 07:08:41 Someone might know they really need more B now even if A is better in most games. 07:08:50 Fyren: If you quit practicing short blades and swap over to long blades, any reasonable system should quit training short blades 07:09:29 if we're going in that direction, why not just reintroduce the XP pool and let the player instantly buy skills with it? 07:09:33 But it might be more like I want more necromancy right now because I'm about to do crypt. 07:09:41 "you have 1500 unspent XP, you can buy Short Blades 8 for 1200" 07:09:52 Maybe this person is doing crypt earlier than most people. 07:10:08 ZorbaBeta: Training should be done 'at-risk' 07:10:27 I guess that this could work: train all skills partially, but use the progress only to guess which skill you currently want the most. After every increase, check if the skill with most progress could be bumped with all pending XP you have. 07:10:50 bmh, why? and why is that worth such an enormous micromanagement and coding complexity? 07:11:24 ZorbaBeta: because victory dancing is evil. You shouldn't be able to train axes to 15 by fighting a bat. But swinging at a Hydra should make a difference 07:11:30 besides, comlpexity is fun! 07:11:31 right, I'm not saying victory dancing 07:11:39 I'm saying, quite literally, you just go buy a skill 07:11:54 you have 1.5k XP, you decide you want short blades 8, you push button, you have Short Blades 8 07:11:55 He's saying the skill menu has prices for next levels. 07:12:09 bmh: right now, you already buy skills after the first rank 07:12:25 kilobyte: oh! 07:12:30 I liked the idea of removing the XP pool, but this is accumulating an incredible amount of design and code cruft 07:12:32 -!- MarvinPA__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:12:59 -!- MarvinPA__ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:13:04 and if we're preserving the concept that you can simply choose which skill levels up, then it seems much simpler to just let people straight-out choose which skill to level up. 07:13:13 partially, that is... and if you train six skills 1/6 each, you don't get any benefits until they all reach 100% 07:14:35 so there's micromanaging of putting all oomph into skill A, when it bumps, skill B, then C, ... and then A again (if you want them balanced, and you usually do) 07:14:50 balanced with some weight, of course 07:15:29 right. It's strictly worse to have two skills at Level X (50%) than one at Level X+1 and the other at Level X 07:15:45 -!- syllogism- has joined ##crawl-dev 07:15:49 exactly! 07:16:08 kilobyte: We could just randomize skill usage. 07:16:15 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16:15 -!- syllogism has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:16:37 If you have a skill at Level 5 (30%), use it at level 5 seventy percent of the time and 30% of the time use it at level 6 07:16:53 bmh: i was about to suggest that 07:17:01 it's easy to code btw 07:17:02 galehar: We must be very clever ;) 07:17:43 how does that work when your spellcasting success depends on that one level increase? 07:18:07 Chousuke: roll the dice? 07:18:14 it's still an issue with permanent bonus from fighting and spellcasting which can't be randomized (and are not not handled by you.skill()) 07:18:21 I suppose the displays still show the power/hunger cost/success rate for the lower level? 07:18:29 it's not that simple :( Fighting, Spellcasting have obvious problems, but then, casting success rates shouldn't fluctuate as well 07:18:31 and you might randomly get something better 07:19:27 I don't think it would hurt gameplay if you occasionally got a better chance to cast a spell, or less hunger cost 07:19:51 as long as it doesn't go the other way, it's pretty much invisible anyway 07:19:54 It would always work out in the player's favor for spellcasting? 07:20:11 every single call to you.skill() would have to pass whether randomization is allowed or not :( 07:20:47 for spell success, the display can take it into account. Just multiply everything by 100 so level 7, 25% = 725. 07:21:51 kilobyte: I dunno, if the split is 50/50 that'd suck, but if it's 90/10 it's not so bad with a default parameter. 07:22:07 I guess going through them all still sucks. 07:22:12 Fyren: yeah 07:22:25 kilobyte: most calls will use randomisation. So by using default values for paramaters reduce the amount of change needed 07:22:35 (which isn't that much anyway) 07:23:07 Which kind would need no randomization? HP and MP? 07:23:23 Fyren: those already don't call you.skill 07:23:36 So what is there, then? 07:23:44 a crazy idea: what if skill progress was randomized? Ie, progress goes from 0..200% (or 0..100% if scaled), and you don't know when the skill will bump. 07:24:03 galehar: Do any of the UI elements call you.skill()? 07:24:27 bmh: appart from spell success and hunger, I can't think of any 07:24:32 bmh: most do, all that are affected by Ashenzari and Okawaru 07:24:53 :-D 07:25:07 galehar: are there any but Spc and Fighting? 07:25:15 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:25:33 and acquirement 07:26:12 kilobyte: I could get behind hiding progress and randomizing bumps 07:27:11 I don't understand the randomized skill progress. What does that mean? 07:28:56 -!- itsmu has joined ##crawl-dev 07:28:56 you would get the increase at a random point between 0% and 200% investment 07:29:28 Does having 150% actually mean you're at X+1 with 50% and you're just not telling the player? 07:29:28 or a random point between 0% and 100% but with falling into debt for the rest 07:29:58 -!- itsmu is now known as Mu_ 07:30:05 itsmu! 07:30:13 hello. 07:30:25 kilobyte: does that mean you have a small chance of gaining 2 levels in a row for example? 07:30:41 I mean, if you have six skills at 16.666%, you are as likely to increase one of them as if you trained one exclusively... but the progress on the rest doesn't go away 07:31:52 galehar: with randomness than has no history and no debt, yes. A history would mean that if you get lucky and roll 10% once, the next roll will be likely 190%. 07:32:58 that sounds complicated and unintuitive. I like randomly counting progress better. 07:33:35 glad to have thrown a spanner in the works. 07:33:36 "randomly counting"? Not sure if I get what you mean. 07:34:22 bmh: I already caught myself micromanaging that all the time, thanks for bringing it up 07:35:05 I liked the idea of ontinual incease instead of the discrete progress. 07:35:06 kilobyte: any time. It's an annoying element in play. Fighting (90%) -- time to turn off axes. 07:35:52 from a gameplay perspective, is it good to have discrete levels for *anything*? 07:36:57 kilobyte: meaning you.skill has x chance in in 100 of returning skill_level + 1 if you're at x% progress. 07:38:32 galehar: If that's the case, then when do you ask if skills should increase? 07:39:28 galehar: most callers would probably want skill*100 to avoid fluctuations, I think 07:39:33 bmh, one psychological advantage to discrete skills is that they let the player say "yeah, I just got Ice Magic 10, I'm awesome!" 07:39:54 bmh: what? They increase when they reach 100% obviously. 07:39:55 it's a little less awesome-sounding to say "yeah, I finally increased from Ice Magic 9.99 to Ice Magic 10! I am minutely more awesome!" 07:40:05 ZorbaBeta: I totally agree. I guess with the random system the perk would be "whoa, now I might cast at Level 11!" 07:40:21 I think that would be more attractive if there was a real noticable difference between those cast levels 07:40:53 as it is, if you give me two characters, one at level 11 and one at level 10, I'll never be able to tell you which is which without checking the skill sheet 07:41:00 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 07:41:01 I think most players wouldn't even notice the change much if they get a random chance of +1 skill, so they will still enjoy when the game tells them they ranked it up one. 07:41:08 kilobyte: true, but it requires more coding change. And in that case, 20 steps are enough since we hide lower than 5% increase. 07:41:11 Fyren: fair point 07:41:33 But while it's still actually in the player's advantage all the time. 07:41:56 Win/win? 07:42:56 anything to decrease the micro. All hail the macro. 07:43:16 another way to remove progress micro-management is simply to hide it. dpeg suggested it. 07:43:34 I don't really like it. Maybe players would try to keep track of it somehow. 07:43:51 galehar: I'd still turn off all skills but one until I got a bump and then rotate to the next one 07:43:55 I think that would actually make it worse. the player knows when they gained a level - this would mean that, when you gained a level, you'd absolutely *have* to go and rejigger your skill training choices 07:44:02 because if you didn't, you'd never know how far into the next level you were 07:44:25 as it is you can kind of ignore it and then go check the percentages when you decide you care. 07:46:05 one issue with the random upskilling idea is that you could keep casting a Useless spell out of combat and eat your miscasts 07:46:32 ZorbaBeta: Why doesn't it do the opposite? You want to turn it off until it's the one single skill you want to level next. 07:47:12 -!- MarvinPA__ is now known as MarvinPA 07:47:25 fyren, well, same thing sorta - you want to turn *all* skills off, besides one 07:47:33 what I'm thinking about is someone saying "hmm I need a few levels of Spellcasting" 07:47:37 so they turn it on and do a few dungeon levels 07:47:51 then it occurs to them to check their skill training 07:47:52 back to work for me. If we reach a conclusion on this, can someone mail CRD or post on the tavern? 07:47:53 ZorbaBeta: With the randomness it's more lenient on the player who doesn't turn everything but one off. 07:48:05 For the player that does, it's still better. 07:48:15 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:48:23 I think the randomness is an improvement in terms of preventing micro, but I'm not sure it's an improvement in terms of player discoverability 07:48:29 I mean, imagine explaining this to a new player 07:48:47 "You push M to see what your skills are. But wait! Keep in mind it might be lying." 07:48:48 You don't have to, I don't think. 07:49:10 ZorbaBeta: The end result is that your skills improve continously instead of discretely. 07:49:11 It might be lying, but that's why I keep mentioning it's to the player's advantage. 07:50:22 it would be more accurate to say that the skill value is 7.25 instead of level 7, and 25% progress to level 8. 07:50:24 ghallberg, it's true, and I like that, but it starts feeling really weird. like, if that's happening, why do "skill levels" even exist in discrete points? why not just say "you have skill 5.4 with this"? 07:50:27 yeah, exactly 07:50:37 Ok yeah 07:50:49 That's a good explanation then :) 07:50:54 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:51:15 I don't think anyone will notice "hmm, my long blades seems to be 15 instead of 14 25% of the time." 07:51:18 I don't like having decimal point in the UI though... 07:51:20 And then get worried about it. 07:51:47 Or are there cases it'll stand out? 07:51:55 ghallberg: maybe skills should have 270 levels then :P 07:53:22 Fyren: you won't notice it in-game, but it doesn't mean players won't know about it and won't care. Most of them read spoilers, discuss game mechanics or even read the source. 07:53:55 or come to ##crawl-dev to discuss game design with the devs :P 07:54:54 I don't think it would bother me, but I don't know how to go about figuring out if it would bother others. 07:54:59 729 levels 07:55:02 it's 27*27 :D 07:56:26 fyren, I think any situation where you're lying to the player is a situation to avoid. Crawl has a lot of situations where it hides detailed information, but AFAIK it never blatantly comes out and says things that are wrong. 07:56:50 (okay, I think the player resistances are wrong if the player is wearing an unidentified ring) 07:56:58 If the game says you're at 14 and 25% the info is there. 07:57:19 It's not more hidden than interactions with EVP and strength/shields whatever and spell failure. 07:57:22 galehar: Yeah I was thinking about that :) 07:57:23 ah, hmm 07:57:31 galehar: Or 2700 :D 07:57:33 it still feels a bit strange just because people will try to micro it anyway 07:57:42 Display is jumbled (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4299) by Euph0ria 07:57:42 even though it's no longer needed 07:58:17 Sure, but the problem to be solved (as I understood it) was that you never want partial progress in a skill when that XP is sitting wasted. 07:59:15 Fyren: Yes and that we can do, but then we need to display it in a good way. 07:59:17 This way it tightens the cap between the micromanager and the guy who doesn't care. 07:59:23 Gap. 08:00:12 The first time I looked at the source it was to figure out the EVP/spellcasting stuff. The learndb/wiki info kind of sucked or was unclear. 08:00:25 Explaining the randomization is one sentence in prose somewhere. 08:00:38 The EVP stuff is complicated even having read the source. 08:07:30 I'm thinking using a single decimal is a good compromise. Level 7.2, no progress. No randomization if we can avoid it. Just scale all formulas by 10. 08:11:12 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Quit: Changing server...] 08:11:36 galehar: Looks good. 08:11:41 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:17:48 Flying skull won't fly over water (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4300) by nubinia 08:42:28 03kilobyte * rc56b610026ef 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-damage.cc: Undo the damage reduction from petrification against Shatter. 08:42:29 03kilobyte * r9ab1d527194f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (12 files): Reconcile player and monster partial petrification. 08:42:30 03kilobyte * r55d03ce7ad9b 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-damage.cc: Scale down Singing Sword damage in early game. 08:42:30 03kilobyte * r756f4ccd97db 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-pick.cc: Reduce the rarity of catoblepases in the regular dungeon as well (not in trunk). 08:42:43 folks start talking more and more about adding new features: boulder beetles, what not 08:42:53 I'll push the "0.9 beta" button, ok? 08:43:28 (I didn't do this before since it requires cherry-picking all fixes afterwards) 09:00:04 kilobyte: Does the Shatter change include LRD as well? 09:02:41 RichardHawk: no 09:03:41 -!- Syraine has joined ##crawl-dev 09:10:06 03MarvinPA * r555955c21312 10/crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: Don't allow retargeting orbs of destruction by shouting at them 09:13:56 speaking of new feature, how about test in trunk rriegs' patch for autoexplore? (#4268) 09:17:17 -!- elderman has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:20:06 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.9 * rbde917044aa2 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: Disable the hallowed hall vault. Shedu are buggy. 09:20:16 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.9 * rc7d659faa8cf 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-pick.cc: Remove testing monster rarities. 09:25:59 yay for branching! 09:26:06 03kilobyte * rc9f1ad8bf88d 10/crawl-ref/source/AppHdr.h: Enable the new Abyss, ready or not. 09:28:20 Napkin: there's a job for you... 09:28:23 Wow, boulder beetle patch action! Never realized Curio also submitted tiles already in February. 09:30:55 whatup?! 09:31:01 oh nooooows! 09:31:31 what exactly do I have to do again? ;) 09:33:19 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 09:34:43 Napkin: there's no sharing between the update-0.3146926 scripts, right? 09:35:54 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 09:37:04 0.9 is released? 09:37:13 just branched 09:37:22 equals? 09:37:28 lots of bugs to fix 09:37:46 so, it's a pre-release branch for now? 09:37:46 I tagged it as "beta" 09:37:50 yeah 09:37:58 ah, ok - so it'll replace trunk for now 09:38:10 sure, will do so this evening or tomorrow morning 09:39:09 Which feature mimics do we disable for 0.9? last time we disabled portals and branch entries. But doors are a bit buggy too. 09:39:28 Are door mimics supposed to move? 09:40:04 what does that leave? just stairs? 09:40:12 oh, fountains and shops 09:40:16 shops are buggy too though 09:40:21 actually fixing them is also an option, but I'm not volunteering 09:41:00 I think they need to be refactored, as I suggested on the wiki. 09:41:29 how about we just disable all of them and come up with a better implementation for 0.10? 09:41:43 or we can just keep the stairs 09:41:46 less work, sure 09:42:22 i don't know of any outstanding bugs with stairs at least 09:42:22 "This game comes from a previous release of Crawl. If you load it now, you won't be able to go back. Continue?" 09:42:28 but just disabling them all for now works too 09:42:36 unnecessarily scary when moving from trunk to trunk 09:52:06 03dolorous * re567403d1fb4 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Lightning spires are artificial, but not artificial *beings* per se. 09:55:25 kilobyte: For #4171, isn't the given example reflecting a point of damage twice? 09:56:05 but please, nobody hit the update button on CDO at the moment. ok, kilobyte? 10:08:23 -!- Garhauk has joined ##crawl-dev 10:12:06 03dolorous * r319e89ad4c11 10/crawl-ref/source/files.cc: Remove unnecessary spacing. 10:23:28 Catoblepas petrification spam and spore tile instead of petrification cloud (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4301) by XuaXua 10:33:40 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 10:45:36 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 10:54:30 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:04:45 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:35:37 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:58:51 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 12:24:32 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 12:41:45 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:42:22 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 12:46:21 -!- murphy_slaw__ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:47:18 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:47:44 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:55:02 -!- Syraine has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:09:05 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:10:52 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 13:19:23 temporarily warped weapon auto-marked !w (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4302) by nubinia 13:34:53 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:40:18 kilobyte: we need to get in contact with greensnark soon 13:40:48 otherwise 0.9 scores can't be separated 13:41:26 and since the versions were also renamed, the score scripts need to be adjusted anyways 13:43:50 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:22 03dolorous * r7d6d314721fd 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/godspeak.txt: Remove unnecessary punctuation. 14:01:30 !tell kilobyte are savegames from master compatible with 0.9 branch? 14:01:50 Napkin: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 14:05:48 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 14:08:03 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 14:08:17 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 14:08:17 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 14:08:27 hooray for reducing skill micromanagement 14:13:02 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:13:43 Yeah I've been pretty impressed with some of the changes over the last year or so. I mostly haven't been following development in that time, so reading the changelog and playing some has been interesting. Lots of effort put into remvoing the awkward, grindy aspects and it really shows. 14:14:18 Twinge: seriously, the devteam has done lovely things 14:16:46 !tell galehar re:your post on the tavern, I'm going to make a stab at implementing spike pits. 14:16:47 bmh: OK, I'll let galehar know. 14:19:50 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 14:44:03 does anyone know why the _random_trap_defaults just keep falling through after picking a trap type? 14:52:32 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:52:38 hiya galehar 14:52:45 hey 14:52:45 galehar: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 14:52:51 !messages 14:52:51 (1/2) rax said (3h 57m 5s ago): If greensnark would send me update instructions, yes! :) 14:52:57 !messages 14:52:58 (1/1) bmh said (36m 11s ago): re:your post on the tavern, I'm going to make a stab at implementing spike pits. 14:54:06 hmm ok. I just like the idea, but it hasn't been discussed at all. At least I don't think so. 14:54:26 It's a 'standard' in nethack 14:54:32 not sure how to set it apart from NH 14:55:01 that may be an argument against for some 14:55:13 bmh: i think just making it a 'you can't move out of this square without flying/teleporting for X turns after falling in' would be fine 14:55:28 it reeks of NH and D&D. Better hurry implementing it while dpeg is away :P 14:55:32 hidden the first time, but reusable 14:57:13 Eronarn: I was going to run it like a reusable net trap that hurts when you fail to escape. 14:57:15 For a gameplay perspective, it's a blade trap combined with a net trap. 14:57:40 bmh: not sure you need more damage when failing to escape. 14:57:53 Would melee enemies be able to hit you when you're inside the pit? Seems like they couldn't reach ;) 14:58:05 Twinge: they poke down into the pit. 14:58:26 -!- timecircuits has joined ##crawl-dev 14:59:12 If they can reach you inside the pit with a short sword, it shouldn't take more than 1 turn to climb out =) 14:59:16 bmh: the trap should be interesting if you're in combat, and outside of combat, should be trivial to overcome 14:59:17 I can't believe the trap wiki page has no spike trap 14:59:28 doing damage when you try and fail doesn't help either of those 14:59:38 it makes getting out a risky proposition while in combat, and annoying while out of combat 14:59:48 can traps and shallow water occupy the same square? 14:59:54 bmh: no 15:00:12 Eronarn: ok, no on the extra damage 15:01:04 bmh: All sorts of ways to make this awkwardly convulted. Clearly rain should fill the trap and turn it into shallow water right? 15:01:05 basically, adding some damage sets it apart from nets in this way: if you get netted you can't fight back but you aren't any worse off otherwise; with a pit you can fight back, but have also been hit for a bunch of damage 15:01:39 Eronarn: I was thinking of applying a shallow-water-like combat penalty for being on lower ground 15:01:53 that would be reasonable, yeah 15:02:04 should giant creatures be able to get stuck in a pit? 15:02:19 seems like they might just jam up the entry 15:02:27 perhaps you could base odds of getting out on any given attempt on creature size 15:02:40 bmh: yeah, they should get out easily 15:02:43 oh, duh, shallow-water-effect is unnecessary due to the being held penalty 15:02:47 for a giant, it might be more like a caltrop - damage, and bad footing, but they can immediately leave 15:03:23 (also, caltrops would be a pretty good trap to use with lua - minefield-card-like scattering of them around the player) 15:06:43 ooh... i'd wanted to make an earth spell that does something like that for a while. 'Calcite Caltrops'? 15:06:46 white ^s 15:07:51 what's the scale on ATTR_HELD? 15:08:03 bmh: have you seen that kilobyte has enabled the new abyss in trunk? 15:08:04 scale? 15:08:12 galehar: he has?! :-D 15:08:31 did he persist my state variables while I wasn't looking? 15:08:37 http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/c9f1ad8bf88d22739c8366f599941c26d10edcd4 15:08:47 score 15:09:08 also, there's still some bugs 15:09:14 A spriggan would have a hard time getting out of the pit, but wouldn't they also be more likely to avoid the spikes and not take a lot of damage in the first place? 15:09:23 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 15:09:42 A spriggan would probably take less damage from falling onto spikes 15:09:57 Octopodes act as if they have lungs (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4303) by S2im 15:09:58 Eronarn: getting netted sets ATTR_HELD to 10 15:10:34 Twinge: we're not trying to be excessively realistic and we don't want complicated and convoluted features. 15:11:06 Twinge: I try to be excessively realistic. Everyone knows that the real abyss morphs. 15:11:07 oxeimon the Black Belt (L24 SETm) ERROR: range check error (52 / 52) (Vault:8) 15:11:53 !lm * crash -log 15:11:53 1289. oxeimon, XL24 SETm, T:84197 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/oxeimon/crash-oxeimon-20110720-201106.txt 15:13:11 bmh: netting does not decrement like normal 15:13:20 you have to try to break out 15:13:31 Eronarn: yep, just found the code. blech. 15:13:37 it's in monster.cc, search for ench_held and you will find the code dealing with it... at least it's all in one place :) 15:14:13 bmh: for a while, i have wanted to redo ench_held to more generally cover constriction, grapples, being held in place, etc. - there's been some proposals about this in the past 15:14:18 For player it's in traps.cc 15:14:49 Eronarn: I'd love to see Baboons or Gibbons as a monster with a grab attack 15:16:33 bmh: i'm envisioning some kind of troupe of monkeys or apes that has castes 15:16:46 like large ones that beat you down, and small ones that grapple you 15:16:49 Eronarn: totally agree. I think Gibbons are the best choice for that. 15:17:02 They're pack animals with strong sexual dimorphism. 15:17:30 hmm, wiki says they have low sexual dimorphism? are you thinking of some other ape? 15:17:50 perhaps... 15:18:03 yes, I'm thinking Baboons. 15:19:01 that looks like it'd work well. could throw in juveniles, too, if we wanted a third 15:19:30 could be interesting to have them be weapon-wielders: don't spawn with them, but can use ones they find in lair 15:19:32 Males should be herd leaders, if the male is killed the females should flee until they find another male to herd with? 15:20:02 would just be too annoying, i think 15:22:03 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRW8g5ATzvY 15:24:30 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:29:24 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 15:55:26 -!- edlothiol has quit [Quit: edlothiol] 15:55:48 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 15:58:48 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:15:17 Stepped on a teleport trap, got placed in a 1x1 room surrounded by walls. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4304) by Danei 16:39:39 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:54:52 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:57:11 -!- gnsh has quit [] 16:57:13 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:05:41 -!- Pacra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:07:41 -!- upsy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:12:00 -!- Pacra_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:12:35 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:13:52 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:13:53 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:13:53 -!- bmh has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:13:54 -!- upsy has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:13:55 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:31:05 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 17:32:14 03MarvinPA * r1d808a8a9b63 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Make player_res_electricity return more accurate values (fixes incorrect colouring on % screen) 17:37:16 -!- upsy_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:45:02 -!- timecircuits1 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:48:59 -!- ZChris13_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:50:02 should you be able to learn new skills with a manual? currently it seems like you can't 17:54:33 -!- edlothiol has quit [*.net *.split] 17:54:34 -!- ZChris13 has quit [*.net *.split] 17:54:35 -!- timecircuits has quit [*.net *.split] 17:54:40 -!- ZChris13_ is now known as ZChris13 17:54:47 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 18:15:09 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:18:32 MarvinPA: Good point, you definitely should be able to. Will fix. 18:19:13 cool 18:21:50 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 18:27:08 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:20 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 18:54:01 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330]] 19:00:09 03galehar * r156035582ff3 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Show lua stash annonate in item descrition in debug mode. 19:00:19 03galehar * radf469b951e1 10/crawl-ref/source/output.cc: Show percentage of progress to next level instead of experience points. 19:00:20 03galehar * r294db2cc0f00 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Allow searching by equipment slot. 19:07:02 -!- galehar_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:08:34 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:09:18 -!- Pacra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:16:01 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 19:48:11 !tell galehar thanks for the equipment search improvements :) 19:48:12 MarvinPA: OK, I'll let galehar know. 20:00:26 -!- Pacra_ is now known as Pacra 20:08:53 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 20:16:49 Does search account for alternative spellings (e.g. armor vs armour) yet? I remember that being a suggestion about the time I stopped following stuff. If not, maybe it could be done while other changes on it are being done, or perhaps I could see if I could figure out how to do such. 20:20:09 03kilobyte * ra96b0a3fd5c7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (files.cc libutil.cc libutil.h): Don't show scary warnings when upgrading trunk saves. 20:32:50 Napkin: yes, they're compatible both ways (for now), and 0.9 saves should stay upgradeable until the next major version bump 20:32:50 kilobyte: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 20:33:29 !tell bmh hrm, so I should disable the Abyss back for now, right? 20:33:29 kilobyte: OK, I'll let bmh know. 20:35:05 Napkin: heck, you can even upgrade 0.8 games to 0.10, but allowing that on CDO would be a waste of time 20:44:32 -!- murphy_slaw__ has quit [] 21:04:34 I think I figured out the git madness finally. Since Crawl was half-compiled with the previous copy of git in 'Program Files', it had something telling it to keep looking there when I tried to compile it with a seperate copy of msysgit. Getting a fresh copy seems to be working. 21:17:02 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 21:41:10 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 21:51:21 -!- syllogism- has quit [] 22:27:35 Is random2(6) 0-6 or 1-6? 22:28:05 0-5 22:29:17 "random (up to)" is how I remember it 22:30:10 Right, thanks. 22:30:42 I'm working on making Fedhas's sunlight paralyze Vampires briefly =) This was an old FR and still seems like a fun little idea. 22:31:52 Twinge: why limit it to just fedhas? there's a light damage type, which things can be vulnerable to 22:32:09 you probably should take a look at druids and their Sunray spell. While Sunlight is not focused while Sunray is, it'd be good to have at least a bit of similarity. 22:33:02 light damage is also used for Zin's silver corona 22:33:24 ??sunray 22:33:25 I don't have a page labeled sunray in my learndb. 22:34:20 BEAM_LIGHT: 0 damage if invisible, +50% if a vampire 22:34:51 not affected by RMsl/DMsl as well 22:35:32 well, that occurs elsewhere in the code doesn't it, anyways? or does rmsl code specifically check that it's not light? 22:36:08 Good points. I already figured out how to do it for Fedhas (surprisingly easy, I expected to have to pull in variables in a way I barely understand); I'll look at the others 22:36:14 I was thinking of making it fear Shadows as well 22:36:19 also, this makes me wonder about olgreb's 22:36:38 does it actually use beam_light or does it do the 0 damage to invis elsewhere 22:37:25 anyways, wrt the stun part: you could look at the Freeze spell, or the Holy Word scroll 22:37:41 both do a short stun effect (lose some actions) 22:38:22 !learn add sunray A spell of {spriggan druid}s, 3d19 damage at their unmodified HD. Vampires take *1.5 damage, invisibility makes you immune. Neither RMsl nor DMsl helps. 22:38:22 sunray[1/1]: A spell of {spriggan druid}s, 3d19 damage at their unmodified HD. Vampires take *1.5 damage, invisibility makes you immune. Neither RMsl nor DMsl helps. 22:39:09 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 22:39:10 Eronarn: it's the same function as other resistances/vulnerabilities 22:39:50 I was just going to use paralysis for 1-5 turns 22:40:27 like, BEAM_HOLY does no damage to holies and worshippers of good gods, half damage to most, full to those with evil gods, 150% to undead/demons 22:41:36 note that this invocation is free, costing nothing but 2 mana 22:41:41 Twinge: a stun is more appropriate than paralysis imo 22:41:56 paralysis means they stand there, doing nothing, stabbably, for those turns 22:41:59 Also speaking of Holy Word, did that ever get buffed? I made a patch to buff & retheme it a bit right before I stopped doing any dev work, but it looks like that was never actually put in place 22:42:03 stun just means they can't move, act, cast spells, etc. 22:44:00 Ok. I was using 'mon_enchant(ENCH_PARALYSIS' for Paralysis; is it similar for Stun or? 22:45:22 no, stun isn't an ench 22:45:29 it's a direct decrement of the monster's energy 22:45:45 i think it might be... god-spell.cc? where holy word code is? 22:46:47 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 22:50:26 Is the energy proprotion the same? Like I'd set it to something between -10 and -50 or similar? 22:52:49 that would be for 1 to 5 turns, sure, but that seems kind of excessive 22:53:03 look at the values for stun for freeze, then try that out in game and see how it works 22:55:05 ok, I'll check it out in a few. 23:07:14 -!- stabwound has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:07:51 -!- Syraine has joined ##crawl-dev 23:16:35 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:23:20 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 23:30:36 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 23:58:51 !tell bmh I'd love to hear your full impressions of catoblepae. 23:58:52 Wensley: OK, I'll let bmh know. 23:59:55 Catoblepae?