00:01:38 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.9-a1-1281-g11ecce8 (32) 00:17:34 napkin, kilobyte, due, greensnark... can one of you update CDO? 00:18:32 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-1281-g11ecce8 00:22:50 that one's incomplete anyhow 00:23:37 incomplete? 00:25:03 it needs more polish and stuff 00:26:49 some of the sections are more or less fully written while others are just drafts 00:29:05 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:13 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:47:07 -!- Guest78501 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:48:25 -!- Guest78501 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:55:38 -!- evilmike has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:57:46 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:06:21 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:11:57 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:16:06 03elliptic * r58d197590238 10/crawl-ref/source/player-stats.cc: Tweak the heavy-armour Jiyva shuffle. 01:23:12 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:27:52 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:50:03 03galehar * rbaddf42e18f1 10/crawl-ref/source/skill_menu.cc: Don't print 0% training for unknown skills. 02:12:54 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:13:46 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 02:22:51 !tell greensnark Thought I'd tell you, since you took care of Henzell: rhf is down for the time being. The web server will remain up to serve ttyrecs and other stuff just in case. Maybe rhf will return in better form some day ;) 02:22:51 joosa: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 02:23:20 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 02:43:22 oh.. webtiles was merged already? 02:47:35 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-1283-gbaddf42 (32) 03:17:53 !tell galehar I think higher levels of skills are too cheap currently... I just maxed air magic at only XL15 (on a kenku, also training spellcasting and dodging to 10 and conj to 8) 03:17:54 elliptic: OK, I'll let galehar know. 03:21:48 !tell galehar Previously I'd only expect to get such skills by XL19 or so... I'd suggest increasing the number of skill points needed for higher skill levels by a bit 03:21:48 elliptic: OK, I'll let galehar know. 03:24:27 Napkin: there's a number of problems though (but present in the current 0.8 branch too) 03:24:28 kilobyte: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 03:24:41 mmmh? 03:24:51 1. they don't work in new firefoxes, or anything with the new version of webtiles 03:24:57 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 03:25:01 *websockets 03:25:15 2. there is no feedback to the player what went wrong whatsoever, only a black screen 03:25:15 http://www.angryfishstudios.com/2011/04/adventures-in-bitmasking/ <-- perhaps we could do something similar to this to get nicer looking clouds in tiles? 03:25:24 er, yeah 03:25:43 well, i'm surprised that it's merged already 03:26:34 last i spoke to edlothiol he said there were many things left to fix 03:26:52 don't get me wrong, merging is good! 03:27:06 has he got commit access? 03:28:17 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 03:28:48 he's definitely aware of the protocol change of websockets 03:30:08 no, but save for the big merge, I don't expect delay when applying patches to be noticeable, compared to the rate of CDO/whatever updates 03:30:31 other protocols would be good too 03:31:44 I'd especially want an embedded build: you run it locally, with just ident authentication, and it starts a browser pointing it to this mini-server 03:32:10 would fix all the cases of platforms with tiles not working, working unacceptably slow, driver problems, etc 03:32:33 that's possible already, of course 03:32:58 bmh: tentacle connectors do exactly that already :) 03:32:59 you definitely need to talk to him - i'm just the guy that installed the stuff and has been forwarding requirements to crawl 03:33:54 and explaining to him, how to structure his work so it can run on a server and give similar features to DGL 03:34:01 regular http requests would be unacceptably slow for server play (3* the delay for unencrypted http, lots more for https), but fine when talking to localhost 03:34:23 regular http requests is always sucky 03:34:27 *are 03:34:33 let's not step back to that 03:34:54 it would also require a totally different approach to what we have now 03:35:29 because of being connectionless? 03:36:06 i also think there's no need to hurry 03:36:10 ugh, then the alternate approach for browsers without websockets of a particular version would be bad for you too 03:36:22 we do, branching is in a few days 03:36:30 so what? 03:36:52 does that mean we need to hurry? 03:37:48 at the moment websocket games are not for personal use. 03:38:00 let's just stick to that until we have everything figured out 03:38:44 next step i need to do is update CDO to the latest version, which will bring mini-map support and multiple versions support 03:39:19 kilobyte: how do you plug holes in maps? 03:39:55 you mean, you want wide changes to a stable version? 03:40:21 What I want to do is kill off tiny pockets so that a teleporting player doesn't get stranded 03:41:07 I don't understand, kilobyte 03:41:17 bmh: detect the holes (like, running flood fill on all regions, counting squares belonging to every region, declaring all but the biggest or those with a count below a threshold to be holes). 03:42:22 bmh: then you can 1. fill the holes with rock, or, 2. slide the region until it hits something, or, 3. add connectors 03:42:25 kilobyte: oh, ok. I think there's a single pass algorithm, but that'll do. Do you have an implementation in the layout branch? 03:42:40 bmh: no, but a single pass is simple 03:42:58 It is? The version I thought of relies on union-find 03:43:05 as in, detection and count as a single pass, filling as another 03:43:16 you can do it linerally 03:43:48 there will be a feature in 0.9 that's not completely finished yet. a feature that nobody will use anyways, apart from CDO - and CDO can live with local commits. 03:44:02 Napkin: CDO is the future. 03:45:08 rectangle_iterator(), when you find a square not belonging to a region, start flood fill on it, marking everything visited as belonging to that region. Count as you go. 03:45:34 there's always the option to revert all webtiles related changes from 0.9 as soon as 0.10 is branched 03:45:52 every square is searched exactly once, and visited by floodfill once if it's clear 03:45:58 if that incomplete webtiles feature really bothers you 03:46:08 Napkin: no, players would flay us alive if we did 03:46:16 why? 03:46:23 no player will use it at home 03:46:28 count tile vs non-tile players 03:47:02 for 0.9 on cdo i'll just revert your revert ;> 03:47:23 console is better at conveying information (hard to see important things in a busy tiles screen on a glance) 03:48:00 there's nothing wrong with an #ifdefed out version, and it's already #ifdefed out: you need to build with WEBTILES=y 03:48:26 i really don't get your point 03:48:35 but updates to a stable version other than bugfixes as a nasty, nasty thing 03:48:49 * Napkin leans back with his coffee and listens * 03:49:10 since they cause bugs, and introducing new bugs goes contrary to the very notion of "stable" 03:49:23 why are you talking about "updates to stable versions"? 03:50:38 0.9 is going to be stable soon 03:50:49 ok, that i understand 03:51:19 and why would you want to update the webtiles part of it after the release? 03:52:14 who would benefit from that? 03:52:35 are there numerous people running webtiles on their personal computers/servers that I don't know of? ;) 03:53:21 you merged webtiles - whether that was a good idea or not, i don't know 03:53:48 for me, hosting the webtiles server, there is a bit of fiddling, but it doesn't matter much, as i take changes from edlothiol directly 03:53:49 uhm, you really pondered running an experimental branch for a long time? 03:54:08 no matter whether it's for 0.8, 0.9 or master branch 03:54:21 and not having the goodies we have with console builds is painful 03:54:34 like, no ttyrec means it's hard to find some bugs 03:54:47 also, not being able to watch a player sucks 03:55:18 ok - so that's the reason you merged it. 03:55:43 I also don't like being able to start a game in webtiles and not continuing it from the console 03:56:05 that's a crawl design bug/missing feature 03:56:10 not really related to webtiles 03:56:42 it's a general problem between console & tiles 03:57:03 you could actually continue a tiles game in console, but not the other way around. 03:59:44 anyways, there are few features missing, as you said kilobyte - but edlothiol is back-porting all his master branch changes to 0.8 at the moment. so i'll continue using those when 0.9 is released - just like i'm doing for 0.8 at the moment 04:00:20 webtiles is not for personal use at the moment, and I don't see a problem with that. 04:00:39 mark it as incomplete when you branch 0.10.. or revert it. 04:01:03 0.8 and 0.9 and master, soon available via webtiles on CDO will have all latest fixes and advancements anyways 04:01:19 will the next version really be 0.10? 04:01:38 do you think it should be 1.0, blabber? 04:02:07 Napkin: well, i think at some point of time it should be 1.0 04:02:49 and the release after 0.9 is a good candidate. webtiles was the last big feature missing, wasn't it? It's not perfect yet but it's there. 04:03:11 i think it should be 3.0 already :) 04:04:06 i have a feeling it's easier for the devs to go with 0.10 04:04:39 Napkin: 0.A? 04:04:48 echo '0.10 > 0.1' | bc 04:04:51 too nerdy, probably :D 04:04:52 ;) 04:05:17 Should be 0.A 04:05:28 (0.A looks like a face) 04:05:59 kilobyte: please correct me if i'm wrong 04:06:57 also, i think you should give edlothiol write access to the public repository now. having 2 sources for fixes may complicate things 04:07:21 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 04:07:40 as you probably saw when looking through his changes, he's a reasonably careful guy 04:12:40 i've been playing a bit of ToME lately 04:13:12 for historical reasons (number of rewrites?) it's at version 4.0.0b28 now 04:13:37 i like the game, it's fun and strength of enemies is quite nicely balanced 04:13:46 Napkin: maybe we should just label the next version of crawl with the commit id corresponding to the tag :-) 04:14:20 but in many areas it seems to be rough around the edges (skills, interface, etc) 04:14:58 in those terms crawl would be at a way higher version already 04:15:35 hehe, bmh 04:15:55 you love chaos, it seems ;) 04:16:15 Napkin: I converted my bathroom into an altar to Xom. 04:16:30 omg, that would be too stressy for me in the morning ;D 04:24:49 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 04:25:09 moin edlothiol :) 04:31:09 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 04:31:30 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 04:33:44 moin 04:35:52 makes me think I should go to Finland for a few days 04:36:58 slovenia is the place to be for the next week :) 04:37:16 blabber: is someone other than Napkin going? 04:38:05 on vacation? everybody should! 04:38:38 Napkin: what's the nearest airport? :) 04:38:57 your's? i don't know :) 04:39:05 \m/ metalcamp 2011 in Tolmin, Slovenia. But way off-topic in this channel... 04:39:24 blabber: this is ##crawl-dev, not ##crawl, we get off-topic 04:39:32 i have 3 around me, all about 50km away 04:40:58 blech, tickets are expensive next week 04:45:56 speaking of going to places, is any of you guys going to DebConf? 04:46:20 Afraid not, a friend of mine will probably be there, though 04:50:43 I'm just wondering whether I should speak about Crawl to those guys. With that kind of crowd, it's one of worst things I could to Debian :p 04:51:10 What do you want? A more update version of crawl in debian? 04:51:21 like, for Order of the Stick: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=436168#10 04:52:10 bmh: the maintainer of Crawl in Debian, Guus Sliepen, is mostly inactive, and just uploads what I send to him these days. Which works. 04:52:51 kilobyte: sounds like you should take over the package... 04:54:42 I'd have to ask someone to sponsor every upload, and it's easier with someone officially being responsible for that 04:55:13 That sounds like a tremendous amount of organizational cruft. 04:56:06 I plan to catch some drunken DD in a dark alley on DebConf and make them do something they'll regret later (like advocating me for DDship) 04:56:23 well, you wouldn't let anyone upload unchecked packages, would you? 04:56:59 I very well might. 04:57:25 At least a package maintainer 04:57:50 it's no different from, say, commit rights in Crawl 04:58:38 My impression of crawl commit rights is that it seem largely predicated on your ability to not break the universe. 04:59:05 exactly! 04:59:42 Commit rights is a bit improper term when using a distributed VCS. Everyone is free to commit, which is kind of the point. More like push rights to the official repo. :-) 04:59:50 some mornings I wish we applied that standard at work. 05:01:48 ion: yeah, sorry, I used old SVN-like terms 05:02:14 ion: git is the VCS of the proletariat! Smash the capitalist running dogs! 05:13:44 bmh: this organizational crust is exactly what drove me awy from debian and into the arms of the FreeBSD project 05:14:06 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 05:14:27 at least when it comes to the ports tree their approach is far more pragmatic. 05:15:13 * kilobyte goes to BSD to upload something with "rm -rf /" in the postinst 05:15:19 you submit your patches they are reviewed and if they are ok they are commited - and if it is a new port or the port is unmaintained you become the new maintainer. 05:15:53 ok, so I'd have to upload a version without rm -rf / first 05:16:39 well it's a best effort approach demanding everybody to take their jab seriously but it's working out quite well. 05:16:49 s/jab/job/ 05:16:58 FR: worshipping Xom should use a different RNG that's severely biased. 05:18:42 and maintaining != commiter 05:18:58 Heh. The bias could oscillate between lower and higher numbers over time. 05:21:14 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Quit: moocowpong1] 05:21:17 bmh: it's hard to do this in general (too many RNG calls), but when limited to, say, fighting damage and most spells... 05:21:21 ie, nethack's rnl() 05:24:07 kilobyte: oh, I agree that it would be too hard in the general case 05:24:40 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:25:11 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:48 Huh. Kal’s crash wasn’t notified about here. 05:32:48 terminate called after throwing an instance of 'St9bad_alloc' what(): std::bad_alloc Kal the Merfolkian Porcupine 05:32:49 Recursive crash. Merfolk of Okawaru ****** 05:39:41 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:53:40 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:08:37 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 06:15:22 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 06:15:24 !seen galehar 06:15:24 dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 06:15:24 I last saw galehar at Sat Jul 9 23:37:38 2011 UTC (11h 37m 46s ago) quitting with message Remote host closed the connection. 06:15:27 !messages 06:15:28 (1/1) Keskitalo said (6h 54m 36s ago): Not in the sense of "we should go and implement this now", more like "this was a well thought-out proposal and I liked it". Of course there is a mass of stuff, it's actually an Eronarn proposal! :) 06:17:33 c 06:17:45 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:18:15 Compile-masters: When compiling on a yper-threading enabled cpu, should I use -j(+1) or -j(+1) 06:25:27 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 06:35:14 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 06:43:56 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 06:45:09 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:55:33 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:59:27 !tell galehar I've recapped what I think is relevant from the overbloated skills thread on the forum. What do you think on the matter? 06:59:28 dpeg: OK, I'll let galehar know. 07:21:40 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 07:33:09 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 07:43:50 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 08:12:32 -!- golgepapaz has joined ##crawl-dev 08:12:40 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:26:13 -!- golgepapaz has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0/20110318052756]] 08:39:33 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:39:39 -!- ais523 has quit [Changing host] 08:39:40 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:03:08 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:06:28 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:07:04 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:27:18 -!- golgepapaz has joined ##crawl-dev 10:14:11 03galehar * ra08a6fe9c38f 10/crawl-ref/source/skill_menu.cc: Prevent selecting skills at the bottom of L1 for reskilling. (#4243) 10:22:19 Sometimes I have no idea what players on the forum are talking about. 10:27:22 !seen nrook 10:27:23 I last saw nrook at Sun Jul 10 00:32:53 2011 UTC (14h 54m 29s ago) quitting with message Quit: leaving. 10:38:31 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 11:14:07 03dolorous * r1e57a99f4ee8 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Add another changelog entry. 11:14:10 03dolorous * r546b97503f2f 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Typo fix. 11:14:10 03dolorous * r119808a82761 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Add missing punctuation. 11:16:16 Auto-switch: firing while wielding a melee weapon switches to >>luancher<< in a/b. typo in changelog... 11:26:00 JohnCasey (L7 DrCK) ASSERT(you.wizard && !you.did_escape_death()) in 'xom.cc' at line 3836 failed. (Sewer) 11:26:53 JohnCasey (L7 DrCK) ASSERT(you.wizard && !you.did_escape_death()) in 'xom.cc' at line 3836 failed. (Sewer) 11:26:59 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:29:52 we do have petrify as monster spell these days, right? 11:33:04 yup 11:33:40 not much casts it at the moment, just basilisks and it's in one of the wizard spellbooks too 11:35:26 a gnoll shaman in gnoll_castle is supposed to get it 11:38:06 03dpeg * r3bb364d1cc7e 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Fix typo. 11:38:10 03dpeg * rdb4b766af0c3 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/serial/gnoll_camp.des: Give petrify to gnoll shamans in the gnoll castle serial vault. 11:38:31 aha :) 11:38:43 is it meant to be a castle...? 11:39:08 it's an encampment, i guess 11:40:07 03dolorous * r965f4cc44bd8 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Wrap some overly long changelog entries. 11:40:10 03dolorous * rd85b6f8baa11 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Fix another typo. 12:13:37 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 12:36:02 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 12:47:06 -!- Guest78501 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:47:14 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 12:47:52 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 12:49:36 -!- bmh has quit [Client Quit] 12:49:51 -!- moocowpong1 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:52:12 -!- Guest78501 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:00:52 Jiyva altar still appears in Dungeon Overview screen after the Royal Jelly is killed (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4244) by Nexos 13:01:29 too bad we can't do strikeout 13:03:00 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 13:15:47 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 13:19:58 -!- Elynae has joined ##crawl-dev 13:20:09 Elynae (L23 DrCj) (Elf:2) 13:33:09 -!- Elynae has quit [Quit: I'll teach my children to say "sudo" instead of "please"] 14:01:10 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 14:01:12 Conflicting DS mutations (Nightstalker+Thin Skeletal+demonic guardian) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4245) by talas 14:06:19 JohnCasey (L9 DrCK) ASSERT(you.wizard && !you.did_escape_death()) in 'xom.cc' at line 3836 failed. (D:7) 14:06:25 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:07:06 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:07:16 -!- Wensley_ is now known as Wensley 14:09:22 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:15:58 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:17:37 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:17:59 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 14:20:02 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 14:23:50 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 14:24:35 -!- Garhauk has joined ##crawl-dev 14:46:33 JohnCasey (L9 DrCK) ASSERT(you.wizard && !you.did_escape_death()) in 'xom.cc' at line 3836 failed. (D:7) 14:56:22 JohnCasey (L9 DrCK) ASSERT(you.wizard && !you.did_escape_death()) in 'xom.cc' at line 3836 failed. (D:7) 14:59:51 JohnCasey (L9 DrCK) ASSERT(you.wizard && !you.did_escape_death()) in 'xom.cc' at line 3836 failed. (D:7) 15:00:50 JohnCasey (L9 DrCK) ASSERT(you.wizard && !you.did_escape_death()) in 'xom.cc' at line 3836 failed. (D:7) 15:01:05 JohnCasey (L9 DrCK) ASSERT(you.wizard && !you.did_escape_death()) in 'xom.cc' at line 3836 failed. (D:7) 15:01:10 JohnCasey (L9 DrCK) ASSERT(you.wizard && !you.did_escape_death()) in 'xom.cc' at line 3836 failed. (D:7) 15:05:31 !lm * type=crash -log 15:05:32 1267. JohnCasey, XL9 DrCK, T:9806 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.8/JohnCasey/crash-JohnCasey-20110710-200106.txt 15:10:13 kilobyte: it's a webtiles 0.8 crash that you fixed in 0.9 15:14:04 also kilobyte: hello! did you get my message? 15:17:26 for the tile: I've took it (but not pushed) right when Denzi made it first... and now I see there's indeed another one. So you prefer the other one? 15:17:47 for clouds, I tried my hand at drawing them, but the result looks bad 15:18:13 mostly because most appear to be cross-shaped somewhat, and have a hard edge at the tile boundaries 15:19:46 kilobyte: I do prefer the newer catoblepas tile, and in any case your custom petrifying clouds look fine enough to me :) 15:19:59 can tiles do alpha stuff well? it would be cool if cloud tiles were larger than one tile, but mostly transparent where they extend into other tiles 15:24:47 Eronarn: alpha works damn well, bigger tiles, I doubt that 15:26:13 I think it might be worth too look at the tiles with halved alpha at the border 15:29:28 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 15:33:58 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:36:08 03elliptic * r265460860052 10/crawl-ref/source/files.cc: Slightly reduce the time taken to go up or down stairs. 15:37:00 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 15:42:09 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:43:20 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 15:43:52 evening 15:43:52 galehar: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 15:44:05 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:48 !messages 15:44:48 (1/3) elliptic said (12h 26m 55s ago): I think higher levels of skills are too cheap currently... I just maxed air magic at only XL15 (on a kenku, also training spellcasting and dodging to 10 and conj to 8) 15:45:12 !messages 15:45:12 (1/2) elliptic said (12h 23m 24s ago): Previously I'd only expect to get such skills by XL19 or so... I'd suggest increasing the number of skill points needed for higher skill levels by a bit 15:45:20 !messages 15:45:21 (1/1) dpeg said (8h 45m 53s ago): I've recapped what I think is relevant from the overbloated skills thread on the forum. What do you think on the matter? 15:49:27 !tell dpeg remove skill progress seems extreme, I'm not sure. Showing % to next level instead of total number for XP is a great idea. I'm fine with temporary effect for manual (even if thematically permanent is better), but I don't like the idea of them reducing other skills. 15:49:27 galehar: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 15:52:27 galehar: About manuals: It makes some thematical sense that you study your manual over time, making your practice more efficient, instead of devouring it all at once and learning everything therein 15:53:20 ghallberg: indeed. My idea for manuals is that you activate them, and it doubles the amount of skill points you gain in the skill until they run out (charge is a number of skill points) 15:53:43 yeah 15:53:57 YOu said permantent made more sense though? 15:54:24 gaining more skill points is a permanent effect 15:54:52 the manual temporarily increase your training rate, but the result is that your skill is permanently of a higher level 15:55:03 dpeg thinks a temporary boost is better 15:55:37 ah 15:56:02 Ah a temporary skill boost, I read it as a temporary training boost. 15:56:28 !tell elliptic high skill levels are already expensive, but aptitudes have a huge effect at high skill level. Total cost for L27 is 29900 for apt 0, 17779 for apt +3. 15:56:28 galehar: OK, I'll let elliptic know. 15:56:45 hmm, possible problem 15:56:56 don't apts have the same effect at all skill levels, proportionally? 15:56:56 elliptic: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 15:57:03 if it gives you more skill points total, it'll seem like a no brainer to a newbie 15:57:09 even in a skill they don't really use much 15:57:18 !tell elliptic and since you gain less skill points, the XP cost of skill points is lower. So the cost change is a huge boost to specialists with good apt. 15:57:18 galehar: OK, I'll let elliptic know. 15:57:31 but it will have a hidden cost 15:58:57 galehar: yeah, that's what I'm worried about... buffing specialists relative to generalists is fine, but the current status seems slightly excessive 15:58:57 elliptic: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 16:00:31 elliptic: maybe basing the skill cost on total skill levels instead of skill points. 16:00:45 if you do that then it won't be commutative any more, no? 16:00:45 but that would be for 0.10 16:01:23 elliptic: yeah right, it's not good 16:02:21 it might not be a large problem, you do pay the price of specialization... but it does feel to me like my skills are higher on most characters than they used to be, not just the dedicated specialists 16:02:30 high skill levels are already very expensive at apt 0. If we increase it more, they would be reserved to good apts char. Which may not be a bad thing. 16:03:40 in that case, maybe it means I aimed too low with the skill cost change. I can also just raise the skill cost. 16:05:38 I'd be interested in whether other people share my feeling about skills being generally higher now... if so, then we should probably tweak a little before 0.9, but if not the current status is fine 16:06:52 Fire Brand and Freezing Aura should be grayed out for felids (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4246) by ekaterin 16:06:57 -!- Twinge has quit [] 16:07:30 elliptic: also, do you feel this is the case at any point in the game? Probably not early game for casters I hope. 16:08:08 I wouldn't say I've noticed total skill levels being higher. 16:08:25 Just the new system having obvious benefits such as armor melee character not leaking points into stealth. 16:08:36 that feeling mainly comes from looking at my skills in midgame or lategame and comparing 16:08:55 richardhawk: well I already had this impression before the skill training changes 16:09:11 this would be a consequence of the skill cost changes that came before that 16:09:21 galehar: so yeah, not sure about early game 16:10:58 I'm tempted to make skill_cost_level visible (even if a bit hidden) so we might spot more easily which costs to raise. 16:17:41 Eronarn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&v=1DoWdHOtlrk&gl=US 16:23:10 !learn add octopode How octopodes use shields: http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&v=1DoWdHOtlrk&gl=US 16:23:11 octopode[2/2]: How octopodes use shields: http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&v=1DoWdHOtlrk&gl=US 16:24:21 kilobyte: that's hilarious! 16:26:26 kilobyte: also, before I forget to ask, are there any AI ramifications to making petrifying clouds block line of sight? my only concern there is that the catoblepas might not be able to find the player or something, though I don't know how the AI works there. also it seems like it might be too similar to steam breath/ink, especially if marvinpa decides to give grey dracs petrifying breath 16:27:30 it looked to me like a bug, since chalk dust is damn opaque 16:30:06 Wensley: if you add it to mons_has_ranged_ability in mon-util.cc, they will use the special ranged AI to regain LOS. 16:30:07 it wasn't a bug, but I don't really mind. :) I just hadn't conceived them with the idea that they'd block line of sight, so it's sort of turned them into an unknown quantity for me 16:30:37 galehar: the patch is already applied! it is in your hands now :) if you could do that, I would greatly appreciate it 16:31:06 Wensley: ok 16:31:14 thanks :D 16:33:18 Wensley: if you feel strongly about it, it's nothing vital... we could describe the dust as very sparse or rename it 16:34:05 real chalk dust ("calcifying dust") doesn't turn people to stone, you know; this means it is different anyway 16:34:53 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 16:34:56 if grey dracs might be getting the breath, having it not block LoS would definitely be good 16:35:26 I'm not sure about giving it to grey dracs anyway though... could be too strong 16:35:40 yeah, it might be 16:35:50 !lg * killer=catoblepas 16:35:51 No games for * (killer=catoblepas). 16:36:27 elliptic: so, I guess you tried the new tornado with your Ke. What do you think? 16:36:42 I've only cast it once so far actually 16:36:46 so not much testing yet 16:36:59 ok 16:37:33 enough to spot the really stupid bug with the cooldown timer. Thanks for fixing it :) 16:37:49 -!- bmh has quit [Client Quit] 16:38:03 i just cleared snake:5 with it, it worked but there were some close moments, since i was so used to being able to just cast it and assume everything in sight would die :P 16:38:17 that was spotted by jeanjacques, actually, who was using it in zig and found that it was still quite useful, even with the bugged cooldown timer 16:38:25 (also i forgot to swap to |energy and nearly starved myself) 16:39:15 galehar: it is hard to assess but from what I've seen so far (and tested in wizmode) the balance isn't far off at least 16:39:42 good 16:39:44 kilobyte: I'd like to try it out as it is currently, with it blocking line of sight, before I make any judgements :) I'll keep testing them to see how I feel 16:41:20 elliptic: I might have been a bit generous with the radius growth. If needed, it can be reduced from 4/5*sqrt(t) to 3/4*sqrt(t) 16:45:31 laggar det för er? 16:46:24 kilobyte: do you think you could fix the _rdam function regarding the new radius growth formula? I'm not sure how to do it. 16:49:04 elliptic: ... 16:51:08 elliptic: I wonder what did you test it on, if with damage of approximately 1/3 power (ie, roughly an equivalent to casting Refrigeration 1.5 times per duration) seems "not far off" 16:52:16 with such ridiculous disagreements, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to disable Tornado in 0.9 at all... since we're disagreeing not about fine-tuning but freaking orders of magnitude 16:52:48 kilobyte: so not much testing yet 16:52:55 my comment was based on watching other people use it, mainly 16:53:13 and as I said, jeanjacques thought it was still very useful in zig 16:53:17 i can only wholeheartly endorse the current version, really 16:53:39 it is more interesting to use with the cooldown 16:54:00 galehar: does this mean that the damage is currently not computed correctly? it would be good to fix that... 16:54:30 how is the cooldown represented? 16:54:32 (I haven't looked at how the code works at all really) 16:54:44 a yellow tornado buff 16:54:49 'Tornado' turns yellow on the status bar 16:55:05 an alternate mechanic is fine, but having damage comparing significantly unfavourable to a level 6 single school spell means people will use it just for showing off but nothing else 16:55:47 kilobyte: the version I pushed in trunk is not the same as you tested in your branch 16:55:51 I'm all for a cooldown if people think it's fun, I just sort of wish we would come up with a flavour justification 16:55:57 the damage is fine and irresistable after all 16:56:14 wensley: the message is that you need to wait for the winds to calm down before starting a new tornado 16:56:17 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 16:56:18 Wensley: the winds are still too strong around you so a new tornado would be unstable 16:56:19 or whatever 16:56:20 kilobyte: The radius grows significantly faster and to a higher max. And duration isn't stretched. 16:56:33 galehar: yeah, but mostly by doing slightly more damage in a slightly longer period 16:56:44 that works :) 16:57:23 kilobyte: what? 16:57:26 MarvinPA: then how do you explain being unable to recast it? This seems quite the biggest argument against cooldown. 16:57:30 -!- petete has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:57:40 you can't recast it because the spell just starts a new tornado 16:57:44 if orders of magnitude are the sticking point, let's have two spells, one to satisfy each camp. call the other one "cyclone" or "twister" :P 16:58:06 elliptic: yeah, I think the damage isn't accurate especially for long turns, but I'm not sure since I don't understand this part very well. 16:58:16 well if you can't cast a tornado when the winds around you are unstable (due to a tornado having just finished), then it stands to reason that you can't cast a tornado when the winds around you are unstable (due to being surrounded by a tornado) 16:58:19 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 16:58:40 elliptic: I think it's doing a linear approximation of the radius curve (which I changed to non-linear) 16:59:44 kilobyte: for reference, I was nearly able to clear a zig with a naked char (no resists) with no spells other than tornado, no consumables, and your tornado branch version of tornado 16:59:47 with no strategy 16:59:50 galehar: on the branch, it does stretched damage for 75 aut, in current trunk, the same for 87 (both at power 100) 16:59:54 and you called that useless 17:00:17 so I don't see any reason to take any comments you have about tornado balance seriously at this stage 17:00:29 how do spell enhancers work with tornado right now the ones on cast staying in effect or the one currently equiped? 17:00:32 * kilobyte wonders what Zig you did, and how most other spells would fare 17:00:50 elliptic: same to you, really 17:01:07 because things are going ridiculous 17:02:21 kilobyte: it was not the hardest zig, sure... I didn't get any late pan levels... but you still call things useless far too easily 17:02:38 to be honest, zigs are the almost perfect environment for the spell in combo with makhleb healing 17:02:49 and if you don't want to pay any attention to any feedback from anyone else, fine 17:02:54 kilobyte: is your biggest worry that people will not use tornado in its current state? 17:03:24 but tornado clears zot:5 orbs of fire and ancient lichs just fine as well 17:03:28 "useless" -- of course not. "far worse than a level 6 spell, while needing high skills, mana and hunger" -- certainly 17:04:05 last I checked, refrigeration didn't clear zot:5 just fine 17:05:06 ancient liches happen to have rC++ 17:05:21 right, having unresistible damage is worth something 17:06:07 and you can smash stuff or cast airstrike while tornado does its thing too 17:06:22 kilobyte: you are quite possibly right that the current status of the spell is weaker than it should be... but I'm fine with 0.9 having an underpowered tornado if that's what happens 17:06:36 anyway, we are still testing it 17:06:55 sure, but for that skill investment you could just train another school. Or use Air spells if there's a single resistible opponent. 17:07:42 elliptic: my point is, having a spell in such a state and claiming "balanced" in the changelog sends a bad message 17:07:42 I don't know if the balance is good, but having a growing radius seems much better. Both for theme and gameplay. 17:07:58 we can claim "no longer horrifically overpowered" at least 17:08:09 kilobyte: then we don't have to use the word balanced 17:08:17 "horrifically underpowered" is no worse 17:08:26 "Added a cooldown and windup period to tornado and decreased damage." 17:08:28 then please remove it from the changelog 17:08:49 I think it's worth trying out the weaker tornado in the upcoming tournament just to compare to the 0.8 tourney, and then after the tournament make corrections in 0.A trunk 17:09:07 I haven't looked at the current state of the changelog... if it says something about tornado already, that's premature 17:09:18 Wensley: weaker, sure. Like the halved damage galehar did a month ago. 17:09:48 elliptic: dpeg made a draft changelog. 17:10:15 anyway we can change the changelog later, that clearly shouldn't be a guiding factor in deciding what to do with the spell :P 17:10:16 but if Freezing Cloud does 15 damage per turn and Tornado 6 (taking cooldown into account), something is wrong 17:11:10 " 0.9 changelog stub." were is words. 17:13:44 hmm... let's calm down. We have been shouting at each other for the last half hour. Let's prepare some actual scenarios that could be tested repeatedly, with lua to count damage done. 17:14:03 (and then we can resume flaming how bad things are) 17:14:16 I don't want to test scenarios, I want to test it in actual games 17:14:24 this is why we test trunk on CDO 17:15:59 don't see why you can't do both :) 17:16:16 Wensley: exactly. I think both approachs are complimentary 17:17:18 elliptic: then you take a bunch of monsters you could have killed with a shit-covered stick and claim it's "powerful" 17:17:27 Bringing the player to the arena could help with such things too (albeit not for this specific problem since the schedule is too short) 17:17:36 because you _can_ kill things, including easy Zigs, with weak spells 17:17:41 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:18:07 kilobyte: if you are going to dismiss all feedback from anyone playing crawl like that, why don't you work on development for a game nobody plays 17:18:07 like, you have done Pan with characters around XL 12 17:18:21 I'm not just talking about my own games here 17:19:03 working out scenarios is good, but don't just ignore feedback from everyone who tests the spell 17:19:17 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 17:20:35 I used to be the balance guy on a major MUD for many years, so I consider what you say an insult. And players usually give feedback that is not that good. 17:21:24 and many of them are smart monkeys who can _play_ so far better than me it makes the head spin 17:21:57 like, say, you with underpowered characters in hard places 17:22:12 sure, feedback from players has to be taken with a grain of salt... but please don't ignore it without even knowing what it is 17:22:41 I feel insulted that you feel that I have no ability to judge balance 17:22:46 All feedback we had on tornado has always been that it's overpowered. Even after the huge nerf I did. 17:22:50 which is the impression I get 17:23:22 galehar: even with halved damage but Conj/Air? 17:23:59 Maybe not. then we had disagrement about the design, not the balance. 17:24:30 I'm not aware of anyone using the spell during the 3ish days it was conj/air 17:27:48 so how can you claim that it was still overpowered? 17:28:07 I don't believe I claimed that 17:28:29 I think Marvin did :) 17:28:35 i did? 17:28:39 you did? 17:29:02 (although if all that changed was the school, then sure, it was still overpowered) 17:29:12 see? 17:29:15 :P 17:29:20 MarvinPA: school _and_ halved damage 17:29:38 by halved damage you mean making it check AC and doing 2/3 damage, right? 17:29:42 i don't know then, not sure i played with that version 17:29:43 that change? 17:30:28 elliptic: uhm, for most characters before their fourth Zig, the end result was less than half of old damage 17:30:49 because of the AC check? maybe 17:30:56 I'm not disagreeing with that 17:31:07 but the actual change was 2/3 damage and checking AC, right? 17:31:20 yes, that's the change I did. 17:31:26 lemme check 17:31:49 yeah, 2/3 damage and AC 17:31:53 from 6d(pow)/10 to 6d(pow)/15 17:32:10 this makes comparisons damn hard because of non-proportional effect 17:32:32 okay, was just confused and wanted to make sure we were talking about the same change :) 17:32:56 high power is affected far less than low 17:33:14 against stuff with decent AC, yeah 17:33:32 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 17:35:35 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:35:38 elliptic: you say "in real games". So, what would you say about taking actual snapshots of actual games: like, stats of someone entering Cerebov's room, copy the save and try various spells at that point? With Lua to accurately count damage so there's no bias. 17:36:08 I see all our "measurements" are so biased that they're mostly worthless 17:36:24 especially those which do not even mention any numbers but just "feels strong" 17:38:34 kilobyte: I'm certainly not opposed to running simulations in various ways, but I still intend to test the spell in my own games and listen to what other people think about the spell 17:38:36 -!- golgepapaz has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:40:49 just simulating trying to kill cerebov seems a little silly though given that most games do not involve this and obviously the comparison between tornado and refrigeration, say, will be very different for fighting cerebov and fighting tomb:3 17:41:36 Cerebov, Mnoleg, Lom Lobon... 17:41:46 that is, coming up with actual numbers for how good various spells are against cerebov would be interesting but it is a treacherous guide for how good a spell is in general 17:41:53 a big pile of stone giants and yaktaurs... 17:43:10 right, if you run more and more different simulations of this sort then you'll get a better and better idea of how good the spell is 17:43:32 the best way to test a spell is to make a robin that can use only that spell and see what the high score is. let's call it a genetic algorithm :P 17:43:51 also note that there are a lot of choices for strategy with using a spell... how are you deciding which one to use? 17:46:03 Tornado and Refrig have little strategy choices in a very short term tactical battle (like, entering a room and seeing monsters A, B and C) 17:46:13 um, what? 17:46:28 you have to decide what spells you are casting or how you are moving after casting tornado 17:46:31 Wensley: no, especially since the point of the latest tornado nerf is to make it less useful on its own (because of the cooldown). It's more interesting to combine it with other spells. 17:46:33 just retreat or stand in a place that affects most 17:46:49 kilobyte: so your idea of the optimal tornado strategy is to avoid casting other spells 17:47:02 this would explain why you always think it is less powerful than it is :P 17:47:20 even without casting other spells, tornado lets you move, and refrig doesn't 17:47:38 elliptic: no, but the mana and skill investment could be used for something else that gives a better benefit/cost raio 17:47:52 doesn't refrig eat up mp faster than tornado? 17:47:58 monqy: no 17:48:06 since it requires casting every turn, rather than every few turns 17:48:36 monqy: in the scenario I tested last, it did on the average 2/3 damage in a single cast Tornado did during its entire duration 17:49:06 since we're comparing with refrig, how is refrig balance? 17:49:26 been bumped from level 5 to 6 in 0.9 17:49:27 kilobyte: that does sound on the weak side of things to me... tornado should probably do at least twice as much damage as refrig 17:50:22 but tornado's damage depend a lot on range now. It's not the same at all on range 1 and range 5 17:50:49 elliptic: depends on the amount of furniture. My testing ground that time was a Zig (ie, far emptier than most levels) but one that was far more furniture heavy than the average Zig level 17:51:27 oh, were you counting the total amount of damage done to everything, or just the damage done to a single monster in range? 17:51:36 galehar: most hard monsters in the test were at range 2-3 17:52:04 I assumed these numbers were for damage done to a single monster starting out near you 17:52:55 refrigeration total damage to a whole screen full of monsters without rC is utterly ridiculous, so I assume you weren't comparing with that :) 17:53:13 remember than Tornado damage is strongly reduced by furniture 17:53:31 furniture? 17:53:41 a mix of demons IIRC, I already forgot the exact set 17:53:44 the damage to a monster two squares away from you isn't reduced by furniture if you have no walls within two squares of you 17:54:05 kilobyte: yes, but were you comparing total damage to all monsters or damage to a single monster? 17:54:09 important question 17:54:20 that Zig left no other way since there was a big structure in the middle 17:54:59 elliptic: average, counting them only until they died (so with a bias towards big ones) 17:55:33 the bias should be probably even stronger, yeah, as popcorn does little damage 17:55:44 hm... well, I'd be more interested in comparing the damage to monsters that are all in range 17:56:06 refrigeration is incredibly good at clearing out a screen of popcorn :) 17:56:20 the popcorn died fast... 17:56:47 and in a Pan lord set, executioners probably count as such 17:57:01 anyway, this is an example of how it is tricky to interpret numbers from a simulation 17:57:13 since I still don't know exactly what your "2/3 damage" means 17:57:22 (can't remember the exact set, sorry, I tried too many, gotta re-run it recording things) 17:57:43 what 2/3, where 2/3? 17:57:58 monqy: in the scenario I tested last, it did on the average 2/3 damage in a single cast Tornado did during its entire duration 17:57:59 that one 17:59:35 total damage to a single monster was usually in high 40s for Tornado 18:00:19 kilobyte: is _rdam still accurate with the parabolic radius? 18:01:03 galehar: uhm, not at all 18:01:53 galehar: it's supposed to be integral of time the Tornado affects the given radius 18:02:24 and it assume a linear growth, right? 18:02:36 calculating unaffected+partial+affected was too complex, integral(t2)-integral(t1) is so much simpler 18:02:40 yeah 18:03:05 would it be hard to fix it? 18:03:06 refrigeration damage seems to be 3d(5+pow/10)... tornado damage is what, 6d(pow)/15 - AC? 18:03:46 elliptic: assuming the monster standing next to you, with no furniture at all 18:03:46 elliptic: yes (to tornado's damage) 18:03:52 kilobyte: yeah 18:04:02 elliptic: and there's a lot lost to round-off errors 18:04:51 mostly in AC calculations 18:05:23 oh wow, fucking beautiful: int dmg = div_rand_round(roll_dice(6, rpow), 15) - random2(victim->armour_class() / 3 + 1); 18:05:41 note AC reduction not being affected by rdam in any way 18:06:05 ahaha 18:06:22 that means it is currently much worse if you are taking faster turns, right? 18:06:24 screw it, I'm changing all AC stuff to the Bernoulli formula before we resume talking 18:06:29 against stuff with AC? 18:07:11 yeah, but weak stuff that doesn't die instantly has ~10 AC, very hard stuff ~20; very few outliers 18:07:53 it was doing less damage if hasted, right? 18:08:01 yeah 18:08:05 oh, well that would explain why it seemed fine when we were testing it by just casting it in zig with no other buffs, maybe? 18:08:13 marvinpa: yeah :P 18:08:16 my test char was IIRC a non-hasted felid: 8 aut turns 18:08:40 so it would go even worse 18:09:11 but then, I bet you tested it in a classical Zig level with no walls, right? 18:09:41 lots of zig levels 18:09:43 i did multiple floors, so it varied 18:09:49 so my test was affected more than proportionally: power halved due to furniture means much less than half damage 18:10:00 but yeah, I think we can agree that worrying about balance with a tornado with damage bugged in at least two ways is silly 18:10:10 well it's nice to know there might be some actual explanation for the huge differences in our experiences :) 18:11:29 about the Bernoulli formula: I wanted to use it for shotgun magma, let's try it here. Every pellet goes on its own, with a 1/81 independent chance to be stopped by every point of AC. 18:12:45 kilobyte: I know I like cool things for the sake of doing them, but will that add anything to gameplay? 18:12:50 that fails to preserve AC being very likely to stop weak attacks completely but not mattering much against big ones, but is easier to calculate when damage is dealt in multiple parts 18:13:33 kilobyte: haha, that video is amazing 18:13:40 bmh: it's so damn hard to get damage on a partial radius right, same for damage on non-10 aut turns, and so on 18:14:22 fixing AC calculation is good, but _rdam is still wrong. Should it be pow(rage, 3) * 5 / 12 ? 18:15:52 uhm no 18:17:15 you must count all time not spent into the radius as 0, all time spent in radii exceeing it as 1, and time partially affecting it proportionally 18:18:43 I meant just to replace sqr(rage) / 2 and not touch the others 18:19:14 18:35 <+kilobyte> elliptic: you say "in real games". So, what would you say about taking actual snapshots of actual games: like, stats of someone entering Cerebov's room, copy the save and try various spells at that point? With Lua to accurately count damage so there's no bias. 18:19:24 it would be very good for us to get a test suite for balance 18:20:06 galehar: the last case needs to be updated as well 18:20:07 a bunch of realistic premade scenarios - say, 20 or 30 cases - to see how changes fare without having to wizmode or arena 18:21:52 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 18:21:56 kilobyte: can you fix _rdam and AC calculation? 18:22:26 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 18:23:04 AC sure, for _rdam I'd have to try to recall the scraps of math I once knew 18:25:21 oh... I just realized I can re-check my math by calculating the integral numerically (like, sampling it every 0.001) to see if I'm doing it right 18:28:41 I would ask my wife for advice (she's a math teacher), but I don't understand your code enough for that. 18:28:50 the small ascii graph is lacking axis labels :) 18:39:54 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 18:45:54 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:55:01 -!- syllogism has quit [] 18:56:17 !tell galehar http://angband.pl/tmp/tornado_integral.svg 18:56:18 kilobyte: OK, I'll let galehar know. 19:27:31 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 19:27:37 hullo 19:32:27 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:39:45 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:59:09 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 20:26:06 -!- moocowpong1 has quit [Quit: moocowpong1] 20:35:35 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:15:28 -!- ivan has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:15:29 -!- djinni has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:15:40 -!- djinni has joined ##crawl-dev 21:15:40 -!- ivan has joined ##crawl-dev 21:17:24 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 21:24:08 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:16 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:06:42 -!- Sabaki_|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:11:02 -!- Sabaki has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:24 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:35:55 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:43:57 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:48:50 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev