00:02:53 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.9-a1-894-gafca20d (32) 00:23:58 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:27:46 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 00:27:56 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:49 LuckyNed the Geomancer (L8 SEEE) (D:5) 00:31:02 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 00:31:40 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:35:51 -!- hoody has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:05:37 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:05:50 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:11:17 -!- monqy has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:11:19 -!- monqy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:11:24 -!- monqy_ is now known as monqy 01:24:06 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:15:24 kilobyte, oh, nice cppchecking 02:17:43 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 02:22:35 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:14 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:25:57 galehar, a new skill training system, awesome! 02:26:06 yeah :) 02:28:54 -!- bmh_away has quit [Quit: bmh_away] 02:34:10 galehar, I've just started a spcj and had a 'Your Conjurations skill increases to level 3!' appear before all other messages (barring debugging stuff) 02:34:13 is that normal? 02:34:28 it's the 25 starting XP 02:34:43 yeah, I understand that, but should the messages really be printed at the very start? 02:35:03 I can move it later sure. 02:35:26 or maybe we can trash the starting XP. 02:38:13 galehar, if all starting xp is spent immediately anyway, maybe it could be replaced with just raising the starting skill levels a bit 02:38:46 yep. 02:39:26 I could also just suppress the level gain messages at startup so we achieve the same result in a simpler way. 02:39:39 hmm. That's a good idea. 02:46:21 if the starting xp is automatically used then just raise the defaults rather than give any :) 02:47:53 is ... the new stuff on CDO? 02:48:42 doesn't seem like it 02:48:53 yea 02:48:54 at least, if the 'unstable branch on ...' messages are to be trusted 02:49:09 seems like it should be on cao, though 02:58:50 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 03:00:05 they are to be trusted 03:00:28 the message wouldn't come if a compile error showed up 03:02:54 ok 03:03:10 ahh 03:03:14 * due hugs Napkin! 03:03:36 due! :D 03:03:52 How's it going? 03:04:42 tiired :) 03:07:56 LuckyNed the Earth Mage (L13 SEEE) (D:9) 03:24:43 !lm * crash -log 03:24:44 1196. LuckyNed, XL13 SEEE, T:22174 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/LuckyNed/crash-LuckyNed-20110705-080755.txt 03:26:08 not on CDO yet, only the Debian packages have it. The best reason for a non-cron update ever. Pressing the button! 03:26:08 kilobyte: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 03:29:21 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-894-gafca20d (32) 03:29:33 be prepared for a big wave of crashes and bugs... 03:38:00 it seems that I get six skills each at 6%, it was 13% earlier 03:42:50 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-894-gafca20d 03:44:29 can't seem to reproduce that after dying 03:46:11 awesome 03:49:39 another thing: we can fit both training and progress on one screen 03:51:08 training can get to 100% (one skill), progress can't, so "27 100% 99% +3" would take the same amount of space as current "27 (99%) +3" 03:51:43 or, for slightly nicer columns, a single space more 03:59:48 kilobyte: I'm not sure. The screen is already very busy with a lot of information. 04:01:06 So, I think I can make sure that the numbers always add up to 100. Would be better. 04:01:51 it'd lose the "[View(!): training|progress]" line 04:02:23 I mean, rounding errors are fine, but there's no way 100/6 can round to 6% 04:03:17 kilobyte: right, this is a bug. 04:04:14 does it affect display or the actual behaviour? 04:04:24 But if numbers add up to 98% players will wonder what happens with the 2% left. 04:05:04 the bug probable affect the behaviour. Not sure. Would need a save file to analyse it. 04:05:49 currently I have 6 skills at 12% each (plus one disabled at 0) 04:06:03 should I dump it? 04:06:12 er, copy 04:06:20 yeah 04:06:39 do you have unknown skills with training % too? 04:08:00 ah right 04:09:27 http://crawl.develz.org/saves/dumps/KiloByte-afca20d-110705-0908.tar.bz2 04:09:57 this is 12% with a number of <1 skills, I'll see if I can catch 6% 04:12:01 kilobyte: with the unknown skills it adds up to 98% 04:14:26 disable everything but short blades and it adds up to 100% 04:24:15 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:27:18 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:33:09 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:34:01 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:34:22 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:36:16 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:08:40 I have working code for making sure % add up to 100. I'm not sure if I should push it. What to do if you select 3 skills in manual mode? Which one should get 34%? 05:08:47 I'll stash it for now. 05:09:00 is there any reason the percentages have to be integers? 05:09:27 well, decimals would be utterly irrelevant 05:09:52 no need to spam the skill menu with useless numbers, it's busy enough as it is. 05:10:32 besides, it doesn't even solve the problem. Either they all get 33.33% and numbers still not add up to 100, or one get 33.34% 05:11:04 well, you could do out-of-4294967296 internally, and just show it rounded to the nearest integer on the skill screen 05:11:19 there's no reason that the internal and user-visible representation have to be exactly the same 05:11:49 that's about what I do now. 05:12:11 but I don't use floats. 05:12:36 each skill gets 33/99 XP, not 33/100 05:13:24 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 05:13:42 the best way is probably to make sure % add up to 100 in automatic mode, but not in manual mode. That should meet the player's natural expectations. 05:17:11 Crawl style would just be to replace the percentages with adjectives, nobody would worry about adjectives not adding up to 100% 05:27:26 -!- petete has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:27:51 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 05:31:22 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:35:09 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 05:41:19 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 05:48:23 Kal (L26 NaWr) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 05:48:24 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:49:13 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:49:13 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 05:49:35 Kal (L26 NaWr) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 05:50:35 !lm * crash -log 05:50:36 1196. LuckyNed, XL13 SEEE, T:22174 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/LuckyNed/crash-LuckyNed-20110705-080755.txt 05:50:56 !lm Kal crash -log 05:50:57 No milestones for Kal (crash). 05:53:15 Interestingly, there was no experience pool indicator in the UI of his crashing game. 05:53:51 probably because the xp pool is gone :P 05:53:52 Ah, neither seems anyone else. 05:58:51 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:59:41 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:59:42 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:09:00 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:09:41 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:09:41 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:12:53 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:13:45 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 06:19:47 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:21:01 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:21:01 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:24:43 03galehar * r1e33d3953673 10/crawl-ref/source/output.cc: Adjust the XP and XL display in debug mode. 06:24:45 03galehar * r6a1d662662cf 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Cap the transfer knowledge so it doesn't reduce a skill below level 1. 06:24:45 03galehar * r314386688825 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Don't print level up message on game start. 06:24:46 03galehar * r321fbae0fec7 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Simplify debugging code. 06:24:46 03galehar * rebeb7252bbd9 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: In automatic mode, make sure the training percentages add up to 100. 06:24:46 03galehar * red29f477264b 10/crawl-ref/source/skill_menu.cc: Don't show 0% for skills with no training. 06:24:46 03galehar * re0d4b1833642 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Add a debug message when a skill is exercised. 06:28:07 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:28:55 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 06:36:41 galehar: Kal's save has spellcasting of only 24, yet "if (you.skill_points[exsk] >= skill_exp_needed(27, exsk))" triggers 06:36:41 both skill points and skill_exp_needed is 38675 06:36:41 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:37:35 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:37:36 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:39:58 but it's 0.8 06:40:21 no, his current ZotDef game 06:41:01 the one which just crashed. There are no milestones on games crashed due to an infinite loop. 06:41:11 ok, how do I get his save file? 06:42:52 lemme see if I can get it 06:42:54 anyway, he has DUR_SAGE set 06:42:54 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 06:42:54 http://angband.pl/tmp/Kal.cs 06:42:56 thanks. 06:42:56 I'll debug this later, have to go now. 06:42:56 hah, indeed SP_SPELLCASTING, not surprising 06:42:56 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:42:56 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:43:45 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:43:45 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:44:36 03galehar * r57c1aa28695e 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Skip unknown skills when initialising the training array. 06:44:36 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:53:42 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 06:53:45 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:53:47 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:06:09 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 07:07:14 kilobyte: I've figured it out while driving back to work. 07:08:35 -!- Twinge_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:09:51 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 07:15:55 it isn't even related to sage. There's a number of bugs with skill level 27. 07:16:24 I really need to think about testing limits... 07:18:49 strange how killing a single monster at skill 24 is enough to hit 27, though 07:19:18 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 07:19:28 galehar: I think I have map rot fixed up for Labs and the Abyss. 07:20:12 I took the artistic liberty of making the abyss map rot a little bit less if you worship Lugonu (on par with the effect of being a minotaur in the labyrinth) 07:21:50 kilobyte: he probably has a butload of xp in his pool 07:21:59 like, you know, a god of battle helping you in battle or a god of spellcasting help you cast spells? That can't be! 07:22:11 galehar: ah ok 07:22:23 kilobyte: I don't automatically train skills when upgrading saves. I leave the player a chance to select the skills he wants to train before :) 07:22:50 bmh: that's awesome! 07:23:16 The probability of an unseen square *NOT* rotting decreases geometrically as a function of distance. 07:23:22 so what's left to do? Serialisation of the morphed abyss map? 07:23:41 not even the map, just the state variables. 07:23:42 bmh: great. That's exactly what I had in mind. 07:23:56 bmh: oh, that shouldn't be too hard then 07:24:04 what about AK? Stil buggy? 07:24:05 And it gets clamped at a certain radius 07:24:11 oh, probably. I haven't tested it 07:24:16 I'm going to change how AKs spawn anyhow. 07:24:32 Enter the dungeon like anyone else, and then hurl them into the abyss so we get corrupted entry vaults for free 07:25:18 what if the corruption frees monsters in one of the powerful-monsters-behind-glass entry vaults? 07:25:53 The effect doesn't work that way. 07:26:19 I set up a radius iterator, copy the tiles into a buffer, banish the player, and replay the contents of the buffer. 07:26:32 It doesn't change the original map 07:27:20 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 07:29:34 ah, so monsters aren't transferred, just map elements 07:30:36 yeah... I didn't want to break the universe 07:31:55 galehar: The constants I'm using might need some tweaking 07:34:44 bmh: I'm not sure about the AK start. It means when they go back on D:1, they find the same entry vault. What's the flavour? They are supposed to start from the abyss, not being banished on entering the dungeon. 07:35:02 galehar: ok, I'll fix it for real 07:39:55 back to the trenches 07:39:56 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 07:53:21 kilobyte: looks like bmh's abyss is almost finished. How about we kill the last few bugs and merge it now? We test it in trunk for the 8 days left before freeze. Then on the 13th, we decide if we include it or not. Do you think it's reasonable? 08:00:43 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 08:02:09 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:08:30 galehar: my suggestion with draining is to use something like the weight you proposed, but not distribute the draining evenly 08:09:06 so rather than making, say, 4 rolls against the weighting - make 1 roll affecting 1d3 levels, then repeat until 4 levels have been drained. basically, making 'clumps' of draining 08:11:35 Eronarn: yeah, that could work 08:12:02 I'm not sure about draining skill levels. I thought about draining skill points at first. 08:12:52 one issue with draining points is that you either need to scale it with monster threat, or have draining be very strong at one point and very weak at another point 08:14:38 I was thinking about using the drained xp and converting it to skill points. 08:15:08 so basically, it scales with XL 08:15:13 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:15:42 but it would drain low level skills more than high level ones. We probably don't want that. 08:16:03 could be good to write some simulations with multiple parameters. so we can estimate how bad an effect will be / how long it lasts 08:16:24 since there's several numbers involved, it will be tricky to get the balance right... even draining right now isn't that balanced in that regard 08:17:28 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:22:04 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 08:22:16 galehar: patch(1) has a function to encase all changes in a #ifdef -- what about using that? 08:24:04 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:24:17 kilobyte: good idea 08:34:06 03dolorous * r496808241db3 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Since monster berserkers all worship Trog, use their god name in Trog's Hand. 08:34:17 03dolorous * re506f7dfff77 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-spll.h: Remove now-inaccurate comment. 09:06:00 Wait, Jade 0.1 is out? 09:06:20 yes 09:07:53 !tell bmh could you tell me what minor_coord is supposed to do? It is never used anywhere. 09:07:53 kilobyte: OK, I'll let bmh know. 09:09:24 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 09:20:08 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:34:49 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 09:44:25 undersol the Vexing (L2 SpEn) (D:1) 09:45:32 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 09:45:47 !lm * crash -log 09:45:48 1197. undersol, XL2 SpEn, T:878 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/undersol/crash-undersol-20110705-144425.txt 09:46:25 404 :/ 09:53:31 so, how about bumping the training rate of fighting and spellcasting? 09:53:47 Fighting is very simple, on each hit it has 1 chance in 3 to be exercised. 09:54:14 spellcasting not so simple: one_chance_in(3) ? 1 : random2(1 + random2(diff)) 09:54:24 diff being the spell level (difficulty) 09:55:29 spell schools (for comparison) : random2(1 + diff) / skillcount. And then 4 chances in 5 of being incremented. 09:55:33 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 09:58:04 so maybe 1 chance in 2 for fighting. 1 + random2(diff/2) for spellcasting 10:05:14 magistern (L7 DrTm) ASSERT(you.skills[sk]) in 'skills.cc' at line 362 failed. (D:4) 10:06:59 undersol is http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/undersol/crash-undersol-20110705-144424.txt 10:07:03 (one second off) 10:19:43 !tell bmh AKs are still broken... all start either encased in rock or in a non-Abyssal vault with no exit. There's no portal out, too... (technically, there is, but it gets overwritten on the first morph before you have a chance out). 10:19:43 kilobyte: OK, I'll let bmh know. 10:23:29 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:23:38 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 10:25:03 !tell bmh I wonder, wouldn't placing the player in a vault do the trick? 10:25:03 kilobyte: OK, I'll let bmh know. 10:25:13 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:27:01 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:32:18 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:43:14 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:44:23 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:55:32 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 10:55:37 New Abyss is in? 10:55:51 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 10:56:05 -!- temp123 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:56:59 hi, short question - which library DCSS uses for console rendering on windows and linux platforms ? 10:57:08 dpeg: no, it appears AKs are still buggy, and some other things don't work well yet 10:57:18 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:57:40 temp123: ncurses 10:58:31 kilobyte: ah, but great to see the commit anyway 10:58:51 thanks 11:04:45 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:05:30 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:06:41 -!- blabber has quit [Client Quit] 11:07:34 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:08:24 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 11:11:24 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 11:14:33 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 11:15:32 -!- rax_ is now known as rax 11:30:08 New skill system hangs trying to train with all skills at 27 (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4219) by dolorous 11:36:32 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:39:08 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:45:33 -!- Roderic__ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:46:42 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:47:13 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 11:49:46 -!- Roderic__ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:54:36 -!- Zannick has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:55:07 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 11:59:13 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:59:34 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 12:02:19 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:03:27 -!- ais523_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:05:20 -!- upsy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:08:55 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 12:11:05 xomscumming (L6 MuCK) ERROR in 'skills.cc' at line 467: Can't find a skill to train. (D:2) 12:18:45 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 12:18:46 hi 12:18:46 bmh: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 12:18:50 !messages 12:18:50 (1/3) kilobyte said (3h 10m 57s ago): could you tell me what minor_coord is supposed to do? It is never used anywhere. 12:18:52 Hi Brendan 12:18:58 !messages 12:18:58 (1/2) kilobyte said (1h 59m 15s ago): AKs are still broken... all start either encased in rock or in a non-Abyssal vault with no exit. There's no portal out, too... (technically, there is, but it gets overwritten on the first morph before you have a chance out). 12:19:07 !messages 12:19:07 (1/1) kilobyte said (1h 54m 4s ago): I wonder, wouldn't placing the player in a vault do the trick? 12:20:02 kilobyte: minor_coord is meant to be used for the second octave of noise, so it can be moved independently of the first. It isn't implemented yet. 12:20:38 having the player start in an abyssal temple of lugonu could be kind of cool 12:20:41 kilobyte: I'll fix AKs without resorting to abyssal entry vaults (for now) 12:21:03 Eronarn: oh, it would be really awesome, but I think it's outside of the scope of what I want to get done for 0.9 12:21:43 !seen nrook 12:21:43 I last saw nrook at Sun Jul 3 00:51:51 2011 UTC (2d 16h 29m 52s ago) quitting with message Quit: leaving. 12:22:17 Is there anyway to un-god wrath myself in wizmode? 12:22:44 sure 12:23:09 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:23:28 &^ does it i think 12:23:42 I'm under penance for abandoning Lugonu 12:23:44 bmh: just trying but not finding it 12:24:08 03dolorous * r1f6f62d07378 10/crawl-ref/source/wiz-you.cc: Fix the wizard mode piety gain command. 12:24:17 heh. 12:25:06 haha 12:32:23 doh. banishment regression. The abyss ends up empty. 12:32:55 -!- golgepapaz has joined ##crawl-dev 12:36:05 Now I wonder whether will have worked properly... 12:36:10 03nrook * r8be54678bfd0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (godprayer.cc shopping.cc shopping.h): Bad consumables are treated as valueless for sacrificial purposes. 12:36:11 *that 12:36:13 03nrook * r2b6251d4d1fd 10/crawl-ref/source/godprayer.cc: Have sacrifices of useless items give at least minimal piety. 12:36:18 hey, seems like it 12:36:53 !seen galehar 12:36:53 I last saw galehar at Tue Jul 5 15:44:23 2011 UTC (1h 52m 30s ago) quitting with message Quit: Page closed. 12:37:27 !tell nrook Your patches are in, many thanks! 12:37:27 dpeg: OK, I'll let nrook know. 12:38:12 -!- cesium has joined ##crawl-dev 12:42:38 sweet. It looks like I've fixed the "AKs are encased in stone" bug 12:44:57 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 12:48:02 xomscumming (L8 MuCK) ERROR in 'skills.cc' at line 467: Can't find a skill to train. (D:3) 12:49:48 Does wanderer work correctly with the new skill system? It doesn't alert me about skill level ups on character creation unlike other classes. 12:52:51 !tell galehar Just killed one of MarvinPA's ghosts (yay! :) and got: Stealth increased to 5, gained U&C, Spellcasting increased to 4, Necromancy increased to 7. 12:52:51 dpeg: OK, I'll let galehar know. 12:53:30 dpeg: not sure what is wrong with that? 12:54:07 or are you just sharing the cool instant skill gain? :) 12:54:49 is galehar responsible for the new skill system? 12:55:03 yes 12:55:52 do you generally communicate over here or the mantis? 12:56:37 -!- temp123 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:57:31 both? 13:01:11 elliptic: the kill was with Dispel Undead, naturally. Seems odd to get U&C for that. 13:01:47 dpeg: as I understand it, the new skill system remembers past exercising too, not just the killing blow 13:02:03 the new skill system is also really buggy though apparently 13:02:33 elliptic: yes, and that is fine. But maybe we should try to hand out skill levels (with their message) only when that skill was actually used. So as not to dispense belief. 13:03:39 hm... that would indeed make more sense, but it sounds tricky to make work... since currently xp gets used up instantly 13:04:08 03dolorous * r74abd2354704 10/crawl-ref/source/wiz-you.cc: Restore setting penance to 0 after wizard mode piety gain. 13:05:08 i think the main problem there would be situations where someone flat out isn't using the skill, but is gaining in it... this is possible in the new system, right? 13:05:28 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:06:10 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:06:49 it seems to be (i've just played around with it a bit offline, though) 13:07:06 but you could basically do that with the old system already (only using the skill when victory dancing) 13:07:08 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 13:07:25 yes, my spriggan warper gained translocation skill increase after killing his second kobold 13:07:26 Is that actually a problem though? I love that the system is not making me do suboptimal nonsense in combat for skill gains anymore. Or victory dancing. 13:07:47 is the new skill system i?! 13:07:54 *in 13:07:56 ?!? 13:08:04 !? 13:08:05 yes 13:08:13 so exciting 13:08:15 is it documented anywhere? 13:08:22 evilmike: the difference being that now there may be flat out no use of the skill. which means you can't guarantee the skill will be used, for trying to tie raising levels to skill use 13:08:26 at least as i understand it 13:08:51 Wensley: And Ragdoll already managed to break it somehow :P 13:09:01 If you don't use the skill at all, you cannot gain level 1. After that you can turn it on and gain skill levels without using it if you wish. 13:09:25 Eronarn: I dont mind that, really. It's a little weird but it plays better than a system that requires skill use for the sole purpose of gaining a skill 13:09:43 i'm mostly thinking of skills like translocations, which don't really play a role in killing things 13:09:57 since xp is spent instantly, its hard to see how skills like that would be dealt with 13:10:01 wensley: it is in but quite buggy 13:10:03 evilmike: well i just mean that if we can't guarantee the skill is sometimes used, then if we want to try to make skills artificially level up right after you use them, it may require some caveats 13:10:34 ah, yeah 13:11:06 gaining skills without having just used them seems like something you'd get used to pretty quickly 13:11:16 maybe, yes 13:11:20 i would just think of it as "implicit victory dancing" 13:11:36 MarvinPA: yeah, but there is something to be said for making it a bit more thematic too 13:11:36 oh hey elliptic: what do you think of catoblepae having reaching? I've been testing them and I think their lethality is at a fun level, but if you feel that it's stepping on snapping turtle toes I can change it 13:11:52 and it could be done with, say, a buffer system 13:12:37 where once you get close to 100% it tries to hold off leveling until you use the skill again, if the skill is one you've used with a certain density recently 13:12:52 wensley: it feels strange to have multiple shoals enemies characterized by their reaching and have a lair enemy with reaching *and* cool breath 13:12:56 but then starts you a few points beyond 0% 13:13:05 if you think it works well with the breath, though... 13:13:06 which would be invisible since we only show %s in 5s 13:13:28 elliptic: to be fair you don't normally do shoals right after lair 13:13:36 eronarn: so? 13:13:38 the problem with storing in a buffer, is you'd wait to see until a skill is near 100%, and then cast blink, or whatever to get a skill up 13:13:59 right, that makes it sound a bit like victory dancing again :P 13:14:14 or, you'd only disarm traps when it's at 100%, because otherwise you just wasted a trap 13:14:18 evilmike: the idea would be that it only kicks in to do this if it's something you often use anyways 13:14:26 and if you don't use that skill in a bit 13:14:28 it levels up anyways 13:14:35 I see 13:14:56 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 13:15:21 so if you have both T&D and fighting about to level, and you fight often, but almost never disarm - disarm levels up as soon as it hits the threshold, fighting waits until you next train fighting (but if you suddenly stop fighting, the density soon decays and it levels anyways) 13:15:39 polystyrus (L14 MDBe) ASSERT(you.can_pass_through_feat(grd(p))) in 'player.cc' at line 393 failed. (Lair:8) 13:15:51 net result is that, say, the first 99% of the skill actually takes 98% of the time, and the last 1% XP takes up to 2% of the time. or whatever 13:16:14 sounds like unnecessary complication for not that much gain to me :P 13:16:15 if done right this should be mostly invisible to the player 13:16:18 but yes, that 13:17:04 another approach would just be that if you level, it actually levels up in X turns, or next time you exercise it 13:17:15 where X scales with your current skill level 13:17:26 That encourages waiting for the level. 13:17:50 no... it'd read off as 95% 13:18:12 If you kill an unique and a bunch of skills are at 95%, you'd know what is up 13:18:42 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 13:19:35 best to do nothing and wait 13:21:11 my prediction (I think a lot of people share this) is that this system will make the game easier, particularly when xp amounts start to ramp up in the midgame. I cant say for sure though, as I haven't played a full game under it 13:22:04 I agree. I would like to get a help screen for m into 0.9 though. Just waiting for galehar to discuss this with him. 13:22:42 do you think it would make the game easier because you wouldn't be putting tiny amounts of xp into skills you have turned off? 13:23:07 Well, that'll just open the way for more interesting buffed monsters. 13:23:14 easier because you can assign xp more efficiently. The old system also allowed this if you victory danced obsessively, but that style of play was tedious 13:23:34 evilmike: this is good, though - it means we can make the game harder in other ways! 13:23:37 like nerfing casters 13:23:42 victory dancing is dead, long live victory dancing 13:25:30 Having Meph on less than three backgrounds would be a start 13:26:44 my brain is glitching -- what is the value of "~0"? 13:26:58 -1 ? 13:27:36 RichardHawk: it used to be on six! 13:28:16 wow 13:28:34 Four books, three of which starter, is already the most common spell in the game 13:28:36 That's insane 13:28:42 make meph VM only 13:28:56 nerf meph. 13:29:02 that too 13:29:05 it used to be AE Cj Re St VM Wz 13:29:16 Tm/St still sort of have it 13:29:20 yeah 13:29:22 duplicate starting spells on various combos seems like a decent thing to move away from 13:29:25 monqy: they won't if alchemy proposal :) 13:29:42 I think the a good nerf for meph is to make it not a "sure thing" 13:29:43 I'm not opposed to removing it on more chars, but we could use more low-level spells to replace it 13:29:49 although i think its interesting if wizards kept it, since that combo kind of just has low level spells from a variety of other areas, and it's kind of neat 13:29:49 Alchemy? Merging Poison and ?? 13:29:54 nerfing it would also be good of course 13:29:56 If it only reliably hits the center square, it becomes less broken 13:29:56 RichardHawk: just poison 13:30:01 well, poison and a few tmut spells 13:30:11 and acid 13:30:21 evilmike: yeah, at the moment I'd mainly just like to remove it from Cj 13:30:30 adding more spells is, in general, a good idea 13:30:32 nerfing meph range might be good too 13:30:38 it has interesting synergy with imps in Wz, too 13:30:39 they don't even have to be good ones... just decent ones[3~[3~[3~[3~[3~[3~[3~[3~[3~ 13:30:58 what would Cj to replace it? i guess static discharge makes the book too like AE 13:31:02 I'd like to see the cloud from meph be a function of power. 13:31:12 if it's less reliable and you have to be near melee range to use it, it becomes a lot more interesting and a lot less broken, imo 13:31:17 same deal for evap 13:31:21 are there any low level AOE damage spells? 13:31:23 there's simply not that many spells in crawl for the number of magic roles we have (and then we can't have a third of the spells in the game in starting books because they're too high level or situational) 13:31:27 static discharge 13:31:35 Low power gives you 2-squares, growing to 9 squares, distributed over a a 4x4 area 13:31:37 marvinpa: Cj could do with a completely new book, really 13:31:43 I'd like to see Conjure Flame as an option for Cj 13:32:01 the current book isn't great, though it works 13:32:02 looking at dpeg's manifesto, I think the core problem with meph is that it doesn't offer meaningful choice. 13:32:05 Wait, that's Wizard isn't it 13:32:07 RichardHawk: no options 13:32:07 Bah 13:32:20 and yeah, Wz has conjure flame 13:32:20 elliptic: I meant as a spell in the book 13:32:24 Not book choice 13:32:27 There is a tactically optimal way to use it. You can, say, trickshot two orc priests who have a square between them 13:32:30 But yeah, forgot about Wz, sorry 13:32:47 conjure flame is just in Wz currently I think? 13:32:54 Also Clouds. 13:32:55 yeah 13:32:57 so I wouldn't mind giving Cj it potentially 13:33:00 I meant starting books 13:33:10 didn't FE get it or something? or did they just lose it? 13:33:20 FE used to have it, now has inner flame instead 13:33:26 FE now has Inner Flame. Which shouldn't check for MR, if it still does 13:33:27 ??inner flame 13:33:27 inner flame[1/2]: Turns monsters into explosions. Level 3 Fire/Hex. If it's not resisted, the target explodes upon death dealing 3d20 fire damage. Giant and huge monsters deal more damage and have a radius 2 explosion. 13:33:35 why shouldn't it check MR? 13:33:36 wow. 13:34:30 it would be nice if Cj could keep it so all their spells are of the long range damage type (conjure flame is also ok because it augments that) 13:34:39 i think the problem with inner flame seems to be that you use it on something, then that thing gets next to you 13:34:39 It doesn't directly help with disabling the target, so MR check is unnecessary. It just makes the spell too hard to use currently. 13:34:45 then you just have to sort of awkwardly run away a bit 13:34:55 the MR check is fine, it's harder to resist now too 13:35:26 marvinpa: yeah, I'm not sure how useful it is for FE really 13:35:50 MarvinPA: random idea... what if it were a bit higher level, but drove them into a frenzy, too? 13:35:53 i wouldn't mind swapping it back for conjure flame if it goes in the AM book, or something 13:35:53 It'd be fine for AM if they get reinstated 13:35:55 I'd leave it as is for 0.9, though 13:36:02 FE can test it more 13:36:08 i've also been using it in combination with zombie allies 13:36:23 which maybe shouldn't work :P 13:36:27 ok. abyss is abyssy. 13:36:29 oh right, that abuse :P 13:36:31 FE of yred! 13:36:43 elliptic: raise yourself? :-) 13:36:46 exploding zombies are cool 13:36:55 evilmike: go play minecraft? ;) 13:37:02 hissssssss 13:37:02 MarvinPA: if you made it tmut/fire, rather than hex/fire, it'd make sense for it to only work on fleshy things 13:37:10 marvinpa: maybe undead inner flame should do less damage 13:37:11 it's cool, but you probably shouldn't be able to get a free suicide bomber for every kill that drops a corpse :P 13:37:35 i've been watching fullmetal alchemist lately, it has a guy who transmutes people into living bombs, it's pretty awesome :) 13:37:47 marvinpa: also can you make inner flame wear off after a long while? 13:37:52 100 turns or so? 13:38:06 yeah, sounds sensible 13:38:39 can't do it at the moment, don't have my main pc/external hard drive until friday 13:38:49 but i shall note it down 13:40:12 there should be a xom effect that casts inner flame on everything onscreen 13:40:20 ok, my abyss branch has been updated on github (http://github.com/bhickey/crawl) 13:40:27 can felids cast inner flame on themselves 13:40:28 bmh: cool! 13:40:33 xomscumming (L8 MuCK) ERROR in 'skills.cc' at line 467: Can't find a skill to train. (Abyss) 13:40:34 or make scrolls of immoltion do that, because I want to see a large swarm of bees all have inner flame and then explode in a chain reaction 13:40:39 still need to implement serialization 13:40:41 Eronarn: afraid not :P 13:40:44 MarvinPA: bug 13:41:11 MarvinPA: hey you know what would be a cool fire spell? simulacrum, of you, but made out of fire and berserk, and it explodes after a short duration 13:41:51 napalm melee or just normal flaming? 13:41:52 things made out of fire and berserk sound fun 13:41:56 kilobyte: I realized that I was making a mistake by persisting the level mask. The AK was spawning in a tomb because the mask I was using wasn't initialized 13:42:01 sounds nifty, really powerful 13:42:08 it'd be a cool high level fire summon 13:42:10 which we don't have right now 13:42:17 03elliptic * rf81f57729a49 10/crawl-ref/source/godpassive.cc: Make Ash passive ID not do anything to runes or the orb. 13:42:24 too bad fire/summ don't really go together 13:42:35 only because we don't have any yet!! 13:42:39 xomscumming (L8 MuCK) ERROR in 'skills.cc' at line 467: Can't find a skill to train. (Abyss) 13:42:41 fire storm is kind of a high level fire summon! 13:42:41 mmm 13:42:43 (crawl needs more spells) 13:42:48 yep 13:42:59 how would it compare to the other highlevel summons 13:43:00 can someone (kilobyte?) press the update button so that we stop losing rune milestones? 13:43:02 There are five Elf:5 maps by minmay on Mantis. They're good, but should I wait until after release before I commit them? 13:43:04 Crawl needs an easier way to add spells. 13:43:11 probably more like summon hydra than any other current spell 13:43:24 i'm envisioning something where it leaps out of you, so you can only cast it if there's an adjacent spot 13:43:25 it sounds stronger than summon hydra 13:43:28 dpeg: no need to wait IMO 13:43:32 ok 13:43:42 and then runs to some targeted location, chopping its way through, then explodes 13:43:44 Will those d:27 vaults I made will be for after 0.9? Just curious 13:44:04 i thought those were in? 13:44:10 d:27 vaults? neat 13:44:23 and yeah, it'd probably be stronger than summon hydra... which is fine really 13:44:26 since it'd be dual school 13:44:27 elliptic: sure 13:44:33 thanks 13:44:36 hydra is L7 one school right? 13:44:37 elliptic: only CDO, though :( 13:44:47 xomscumming (L8 MuCK) ERROR in 'skills.cc' at line 467: Can't find a skill to train. (Abyss) 13:44:49 the ones I made aren't in, I think there's a small one that's in though 13:44:50 evilmike: where are they? On the weekend I pushed all Maps & Vaults items from Mantis, bar three. 13:44:59 i'll find it, one second 13:45:05 cool 13:45:30 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4101 13:45:44 kilobyte: is it ok with you if I replace the contents of xom_gifts_altar with mimics? 13:46:00 actually, it would be good to get galehar too, or fix the recent two crashes 13:46:03 evilmike: ah, they're brand new? 13:46:10 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-909-gf81f577 (32) 13:46:29 uploaded them to mantis about a month ago 13:46:30 bmh: somehow cooler if not :) 13:46:34 xomscumming (L8 MuCK) ERROR in 'skills.cc' at line 467: Can't find a skill to train. (Abyss) 13:46:34 bmh: it's your vault, your creation! 13:46:50 also needed a small patch to get them working, but that was already committed 13:47:00 dpeg: I think mimics make xom *more* of a jerk. Besides, then we could make the walls *not* perma-rock 13:47:07 though that is a little spoily 13:47:31 kilobyte: if your unobtainable tag fixes the problems you mentioned, I'm happy to leave it alone 13:49:17 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:50:16 xomscumming (L8 MuCK) ERROR in 'skills.cc' at line 467: Can't find a skill to train. (Abyss) 13:50:57 xomscumming (L8 MuCK) ERROR in 'skills.cc' at line 467: Can't find a skill to train. (Abyss) 13:51:12 speaking of xom, is anyone working on xom improvement? 13:51:23 dpeg: is this one of the vaults that didn't make it in? https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4130 one of my friends made that one, and he'd like to know what he should do to change it if it's not worthy of inclusion 13:51:55 bmh: sadly, not all problems :( 13:52:27 bmh: so using mimics instead seems to be a better solution, especially in the short term 13:52:38 ok 13:52:41 Wensley: I missed some Maps&Vaults item, #4130 was one of them. Going through the list right now. 13:52:44 I'll fill it with 1HD minics 13:53:06 that one looked good, but I still think it should use depth rather than xl for determing what goes in it 13:53:13 did my monty hall altar never make it in? 13:53:34 oh man, a monty hall vault 13:53:39 that sounds awesome 13:53:42 Wensley: it looks good 13:54:04 bmh: has it a catchphrase so I can grep it in des/ ? 13:54:17 xom_monty_hall, I just grepped it and didn't find anything 13:54:28 dpeg: evilmike was concerned about using XL to determine whether or not the kobold is a big kobold, do you discourage basing things on XL in vaults, in favor of depth? 13:54:38 I think it's on mantis with a couple of crappy vaults 13:54:57 (nope) 13:55:35 found it -- https://gist.github.com/965373 13:56:19 Wensley: yes, I don't like basing things on XL 13:56:47 bmh: please upload it to Mantis. I am happy to look at it, but I am even happier if I can find all the contributions in Mantis. 13:58:29 dpeg: done 13:59:34 thanks! 14:00:56 Xom Altar: Monty Hall (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4220) by brendan 14:01:25 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:01:30 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 14:03:20 the fog machines are pretty cool 14:04:04 which fog machines? 14:05:37 all fog machines 14:06:47 evilmike: the zot entrance thing you speak of in your mantis item has been addressed? 14:07:14 yeah, the vaults work in the last version I reuploaded 14:07:45 awesome 14:07:58 cannot pass on such beauty for release :) 14:08:00 the only real issue is that the big castle one sometimes gets rejected because it can't find a place for it, but in that case it just falls back and places a normal entry portal without a vault 14:08:47 evilmike: yes, that is fine. Is the castle at least sometimes generated? 14:08:55 * dpeg is a big fan of small vaults. 14:09:11 yeah 14:09:42 I wonder where they should go? 14:10:11 zot.des, even if they're not quite in Zot? 14:10:19 they should go in zot.des imo 14:10:23 bmh: in that vault, there is no "deal", just three doors with a mysterious warning, a sheep and two jellies, all of whom you'll meet 14:10:24 yes 14:10:30 that would make them consistent with other branch entries 14:10:51 kilobyte: are you suggesting that I should write a lot of lua? :-) 14:11:13 bmh: some of the recent contributions are impressive 14:11:19 got two new trap vaults 14:11:33 dpeg: In a way that isn't spoily? 14:15:01 yes, I think so 14:15:11 have a look yourself, in des/traps/ 14:18:37 my goodness that's elaborate 14:19:18 :) 14:19:59 -!- elliptic_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:22:16 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 14:23:08 not much to spoil, it's pretty clear that Xom wants your bones for his porridge. 14:23:18 yes 14:23:41 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:25:23 -!- elliptic_ is now known as elliptic 14:26:55 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:35:09 evilmike: I hate Nethack quite a bit, but I really like your castle vault. A nice gesture. 14:37:50 evilmike: did you consider putting a wand of magic darts there? 14:38:04 haha, no I didn't, but that would be pretty funny 14:38:43 should I? 14:38:45 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:38:49 or do you want to? 14:38:58 All hail the skill master! 14:39:10 \o/ 14:39:10 galehar: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 14:39:15 !messages 14:39:16 (1/2) bmh said (1d 20h 39m 42s ago): Players probably won't stash things in the abyss, but their ammo shouldn't get auto-mulched when a vault expires. 14:39:16 my only concern is that one of the draconians would probably pick it up 14:39:21 !messages 14:39:22 (1/1) dpeg said (1h 46m 31s ago): Just killed one of MarvinPA's ghosts (yay! :) and got: Stealth increased to 5, gained U&C, Spellcasting increased to 4, Necromancy increased to 7. 14:39:34 a scroll of acquirement would be more like nh :) 14:39:43 galehar: the new skill system is cool, people have been finding bugs with it though :) 14:39:43 dpeg: and? 14:39:45 galehar: ignore. We came to the conclusion to do nothing. 14:39:58 elliptic: I'm not surprised :) 14:40:03 evilmike: yes, let me try to find a good spot for it. 14:40:19 i tried to keep it so the vault was just a homage rather than an actual copy... so a wand would work better I think 14:41:06 galehar: there was some issue with people getting all their skills turned off (and not being able to turn them back on), and then crashing when they kill a monster... this was in automatic mode 14:41:44 evilmike: let me push the vaults first... we will find a place for the wand 14:41:45 well, you can't forget liches and minotaurs, obviously 14:41:48 Kal (L26 NaWr) (D:1 (ZotDef)) 14:42:03 his game make 99% cpu usage 14:42:18 03galehar * r7c3afbb42266 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Fix an inifinite loop when a skill reaches level 27. 14:42:28 * kilobyte claps wildly! 14:42:28 03galehar * r0d3049c5d004 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Automatically disable skill learned in manual mode. 14:43:41 wow.. 49 games on CDO - only 14 are ascii 14:44:17 galehar: also, after playing with manual mode a bit, it feels pretty clear to me that the progress view should be the default rather than the training view 14:44:20 dpeg: alright. my first thought would be to replace one of the nonbase draconians with a wand, since that would cause it to be placed in one of the towers and would (mostly) prevent it from getting picked 14:44:38 since your training percentages aren't changing 14:44:48 elliptic: good point. 14:44:55 elliptic: I thought the same 14:45:03 found me switching all the time 14:45:15 I for one find it tedious to keep switching -- both matter 14:45:19 what about automatic mode? progress or training? 14:45:39 would be nice if it remembered which mode you were in when you exited 14:45:41 and removing the parentheses would make both fit at the same time 14:45:44 kilobyte: in manual mode, training percentages are just 100/(# of skills on) 14:46:03 evilmike: is it okay if players c-tele into the portal rooms? 14:46:10 not dynamic at all and not numbers you need to know... just all of your skills that are on are trained equally 14:46:25 elliptic: hmm right, after getting used to it it indeed might be not as relevant 14:46:46 dpeg: yeah 14:46:58 evilmike: for example, in your gauntlet vault, should the - glyphs be no-tele? 14:47:10 I haven't tried automatic mode because of the bugs, so I'm not sure how that feels 14:47:12 yes, for now having automatic mode default to training is good while we polish the system. 14:47:37 dpeg: those are already flagged as no_tele_into 14:47:44 KPROP: O- = no_tele_into 14:47:54 later, we can either make it like manual mode (default progress) or remember last use (like MarvinPA suggested) 14:48:33 evilmike: sorry. Surely you would think of that. The vaults are of a very high quality. Or I am not good enough anymore -- don't find a way to improve them :) 14:49:12 "27 (99%) +3" -> "27 100% 99% +3" 14:49:38 the vaults where the portal itself is guarded fully allow teleporting though (also, the ones that block ctele have room all purple and zot-like) 14:51:39 evilmike: I think it's okay -- no-tele only needed when there are empty rooms 14:52:55 and thanks for the compliment. A big improvement that can still be made is making the castle smaller - like I said it gets rejected due to its size sometimes, so its less common than the others 14:53:16 I did manage to make it a big smaller, but couldn't think of any other ways 14:53:45 evilmike: rarer than the rest is perfectly fine 14:55:12 galehar: another interface comment about manual mode - I wish I could turn off the last skill I have training and then turn on another, instead of being forced to do it in the other order 14:55:47 elliptic: but maybe that is not worth it.... you will get used to it quickly 14:55:49 maybe we can save the state of which skills are turned on at the start and revert to that if people exit the screen with all skills off? 14:57:18 dpeg: it just makes more sense, since usually you go to the skill screen to turn a skill off because it has reached a high enough level for you, and only then do you think about what new skill to turn on 14:57:25 or prevent exiting with all skills off? 14:57:32 i.e., the decisions are being made in that order 14:57:39 that feels more natural 14:57:46 eronarn: sure, that sounds better than what I said 14:57:52 exiting with all skills off is an invalid state, it should not allow you to proceed with an invalid state rather than proceeding silently 14:57:55 I have to go, we'll talk later 14:57:59 Eronarn: yes, that is good 14:59:16 kilobyte: btw, thanks for the forest wyrm thing (esp. pointing out the new issue) 15:02:09 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:02:13 -!- Pacra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:03:11 Eronarn: well, you had full right to be angered by not even a response from anyone 15:04:06 well, not angered, more like i want to tie up loose ends before school starts 15:06:11 You destroy the orb of fire! 15:06:12 Your Stealth skill gained 2 levels and is now at level 18! 15:06:33 rather surprised by that 15:06:37 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:06:52 back 15:06:54 though Op stealth apt and stealth taking less xp anyway makes it reasonable enough I guess 15:06:55 elliptic: why? 15:07:17 going L16->18 from 15k xp seems like a lot 15:07:21 elliptic: i'm thinking of dropping their stealth apt down a tier, since they now have the stealth boost mut 15:07:46 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:08:08 it actually seems a bit too powerful at low levels 15:09:53 either that or drop the bonus from the mutation, it's rather powerful 15:10:23 dropping the mutation bonus sounds good, since it's the same as nightstalker now i think? 15:10:28 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 15:10:38 MarvinPA: wait, nightstalker doesn't reduce LOS now? 15:10:47 or, oh nevermind i get what you mean 15:10:48 the same amount of stealth bonus 15:10:53 yeah 15:11:30 maybe i'll halve it and try giving them regen 1 or something 15:11:44 nightstalker does both that and gives a stealth bonus, I'd expect a dedicated mutation to be stronger 15:12:48 well, nightstalker is you become one with the shadows or something, whereas camouflage is just natural camouflage :P 15:12:54 becoming* 15:13:07 yeah 15:13:14 nightstalker is a high-powered DS facet 15:13:19 camouflage is mutable by anyone 15:13:24 well, have you seen some videos of RL octopi camouflaging? 15:13:42 Op camouflage is definitely pretty noticeable right now, anyway 15:13:49 i'm a huge cephalopod fan, that's why i wrote 'em :) 15:14:33 btw, did you all see the new tile? it is gorgeous 15:14:52 and apparently works with weapons 15:15:26 -!- Pacra_ is now known as Pacra 15:16:07 hm, this zot chamber with orange crystal statues seems potentially a bit mean to felids 15:16:20 seems like a shapeless blob with something hanging from it... but obviously better than both of existing ones 15:16:22 also spawning roxanne in the orb room sounds weird 15:16:35 yeah, uniques don't fit there 15:16:40 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2871 15:16:55 dpeg says it's in, i'd think roxanne definitely shouldn't be a part of it at least 15:17:03 "I hate the default Orb chamber so much, I'm making it my mission to get rid of it with great replacement vaults." 15:17:41 so... what about getting rid of replacement vaults and going back to the classical one now, as reasons for others are gone? 15:18:23 a ton of time has been spent trying to come up with replacement orb rooms and i don't think any of them have been worth it 15:18:27 i kinda like the variety so long as the variations are fairly simple 15:18:43 which most of them are, not too keen on that one personally 15:20:26 kilobyte: I'd be in favour of going back to the classical one too, though I don't mind the variety so long as they are roughly the same (in particular same monster set) 15:20:30 what i'd actually like to see is vault for the other half of the level 15:20:44 the ones that try and be really complicated and offer some special challenge (like some of the old rejected ones on mantis with moths of wrath and silent spectres) really don't work very well 15:21:11 say... a forest, or a half-level-sized circular room or something. anything that isn't just hallways 15:21:11 yes, stick with XXXXXXX 15:21:33 but yeah, a bit of layout variation and different positions for the guardians is cool imo 15:26:07 more zot vaults in general would be good, I think they should contian the stairs though 15:26:19 some do this already but most of them only have a very low chance of containing 3 stairs 15:26:40 can we drop the 'sauna' vault 15:26:43 it's really, really bad 15:27:15 lordfrikk (L5 DsWz) ASSERT(scaled_total <= scale_to) in 'skills.cc' at line 391 failed. (D:3) 15:27:37 MarvinPA: I removed Roxanne, of course 15:28:19 and the chance for a hostile statue is just like for the standard statues in Zot:5 15:28:31 one of them is guaranteed, isn't it? 15:28:45 not in my testing ?! 15:29:05 evilmike: Lemuel's original versions did this, and I wimped out and modified them :( 15:29:17 there's an F glyph just above where the orb spawns? maybe i'm misreading it, it's entirely possible :P 15:29:37 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:29:51 you are right, will modify 15:30:15 stupid wizmode :) 15:30:18 heh :P 15:31:00 cool, if it's just regular statues with the normal zot chance of being nasties then that seems reasonable enough 15:31:25 kilobyte: just for variety, I think it is okay 15:33:54 I don't understand the vault syntax for hall_of_Zot but I thought the chance of a statue was lower than 1 in 100... or was it raised at some point? 15:34:49 also regardless I don't like such different vaults 15:35:06 putting in statues occasionally is more than variety calls for, IMO 15:35:18 agreed 15:35:38 elliptic: always was 1/100 iirc 15:36:07 elliptic: what do you mean by "different vaults"? 15:36:21 "such different vaults" as in, for the orb 15:36:59 is that the new one? 15:37:08 I like it. 15:38:34 jle (L7 DEFE) ASSERT(scaled_total == scale_to) in 'skills.cc' at line 410 failed. (D:8) 15:40:26 -!- RichardHawk has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:41:36 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:43:06 dpeg: i had an idea for a new unrand, but i wanted to check whether it would be too silly for you - Ring of the Octopus King, can spawn up to 8 times in a game, each time with +1 str/dex/int and one other thing (so wearing all 8 = +8str/dex/int and 8 good abilities) 15:43:31 collect them all! 15:43:34 sounds fine by me 15:43:46 doesn't NH have something with nazguls? :) 15:44:08 okay :) it'd be cute to have a vault that had 8 of them, since it would be good but not amazingly useful to non-Op 15:44:12 yes 15:44:33 there's also the hardcoded shops thing that was added a while ago 15:44:41 8 of them at 1000 per or something 15:44:51 oh yes 15:45:08 we need good examples for those -- once players see them, they will make vaults 15:45:11 still been meaning to do a Poisoner's Boutique with, say, a 1/10 chance of showing up near the exit in sewers 15:45:15 and all poison themed items 15:45:21 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 15:45:31 or assassin's boots, ring of shadows, ratskin cloak... 15:45:38 a shop selling stones and earth books and stone of earth 15:45:43 yes, combos like those 15:46:45 Hard Rock Cafe. stone soup! 15:47:38 a retired dragonslayer's shop would be cool - wyrmbane, some dragon armors, mask of the dragon, etc. 15:47:43 surround it by dragon bones 15:48:43 then there's the perennial request for a morgue, which sells corpses/skeletons that don't rot until you buy them 15:48:43 if you cannot do it, drop me a !tell or an item on Mantis, I can make some of these 15:49:02 this is possible with delayed_decay or somesuch 15:49:15 i don't know the syntax but i can write down some random ideas somewhere 15:49:22 yes, that would help 15:54:47 (join ##crawl 15:57:38 !lm * crash -log 15:57:38 1209. jle, XL7 DEFE, T:5426 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/jle/crash-jle-20110705-203829.txt 16:02:31 hardcoded shops! that reminds me, a long time ago I proposed a souvenir shop exclusive to zot:5 that sells replica orbs of power 16:03:04 when I changed the skill cost, I reduced the 1st level from 200 to 50. To compensate, I added a special case to reduce the training speed of level 0 skills. With the new system, I wonder if it's still necessary. 16:03:17 could also sell the amulet of yendor, or entarex, or some other useless easter-eggy things 16:06:40 Wensley: please don't 16:07:02 I am fine with evilmike's Castle vault... but no t-shirts, cameras, and plastic orbs tyvm 16:14:06 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 16:14:46 dpeg: hi! 16:14:46 nrook: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 16:14:48 dpeg: you have a crawl process on dis that takes 100% CPU 16:15:01 with no tty, too 16:15:25 dpeg: several examples of shops, though no specific numbers yet https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:item:custom_shop 16:15:40 nrook: hi! 16:15:57 kilobyte: yes, a game crashed 16:16:02 Eronarn: cool 16:16:32 !messages 16:16:41 dpeg: did you, per chance, trained a skill with all at 27? 16:16:41 (1/1) dpeg said (3h 39m 14s ago): Your patches are in, many thanks! 16:17:43 kilobyte: well, wizmode :) 16:19:15 galehar: morgues seem to show all skills as being on, even if you turned some off 16:20:15 i kind of like the idea of an antique antiques shop 16:20:17 elliptic: oh right, I haven't thought of updating that. 16:20:22 guarded by an antique lich 16:20:35 with only unrands 16:23:26 I like antique lich as a zonguldrok wizlab thing 16:23:32 dpeg: I typed up current wand prices, but haven't touched them yet (since there are more design decisions involved) 16:23:36 http://pastebin.com/bzaG4ZHm 16:24:00 monqy: antique store could be put inside zonguldrok 16:24:18 or wait, that one's undead themed, nevermind 16:24:26 i was thinking it was the tomb one 16:26:20 Wensley: i like the idea of a souvenir shop but it shouldn't be cheesy 16:26:39 Eronarn, good point: cheese shops 16:26:40 and i don't think that can happen with current items 16:26:49 hah, good idea 16:27:09 nrook: thanks for list. Would be good to settle wands and charges today. 16:27:20 not sure if someone has started a wiki page yet for hardcoded shop ideas, that would be cool 16:27:20 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:27:45 Wensley: ^ by Eronarn 16:27:45 ooh, what about a room that's a flood of rats? like a 3x3 room, and rats keep spawning ('coming out of the walls') until you kill 30 or so 16:27:59 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:item:custom_shop just made, yeah 16:28:12 Eronarn: sounds like a good sewer idea or part of a sewer map 16:28:21 s/sewer idea/sewer entry idea 16:28:24 due did a map that spawns bats like that 16:28:29 cool 16:28:51 Eronarn: it could also be a new natural trap type, "mousehole" 16:29:03 nrook: I am amazed how underpriced wand charges are. Seems we have to declare all <0.9 wins as faulty. 16:29:03 shafts are lonely 16:29:31 that reminds me: flying monsters like bats should be able to come up from shafts 16:29:33 Wensley: i don't think so - rats are too weak 16:29:37 would only be relevant on a few levels 16:29:45 small flying monsters, that is 16:29:56 I like that idea 16:30:31 nrook: the general ranking of wands is pretty good IMO, but of course the price formulas are ridiculous 16:30:54 yes, the ranks are fine 16:31:07 do you think 270 is enough for hasting/healing? 16:31:12 players would pay anything :) 16:31:15 some mammon-named shop with demon summoning stuff could be cool 16:31:24 270 + 60x gets very expensive very fast, of course 16:31:35 though seeing wand of lightning there reminds me that we really need to buff shock and lightning bolt a bit 16:31:36 no it doesn't 16:31:41 nrook: it says 6x in your list :) 16:31:41 since kilobyte nerfed them a lot 16:31:50 wands of healing don't go over what, 9 charges? 16:31:55 dpeg: I suspect it won't be 6x for long :) 16:32:00 elliptic: yes, do it! 16:32:00 haha, sure 16:32:06 1000 for a 0 charge wand of healing would be worth it easily 16:32:42 elliptic: buff to compensate for trizap nerf? I think more damage is more interesting than higher accuracy. Makes you want to use walls to get two tries. 16:32:44 elliptic: 99% players do not abuse triple bounces... 16:32:54 kilobyte: where do you get these figures 16:33:01 kilobyte has a point, I never did it and GEAE was my second win 16:33:02 people are talking about trizaps all the time on ##crawl 16:33:15 ##crawl is eating their hearts out and steals their souls 16:33:25 and the people who don't use them complain about the spells being really weak 16:33:32 a good deal of people do know about bounces, yeah. These are two-zaps most of the time. 16:33:33 I was thinking a 25% damage boost for both spells 16:33:52 I always loved Shock, one of the best starting spells imo. And I mean with plain reflection. 16:34:05 the difference between a 2-zap and a 3-zap pattern is pretty obscure 16:34:07 dpeg: well, back when GEAE was possible, you could get a trizap without thinking 16:34:17 elliptic: explain, please 16:34:31 Eronarn: but a base price of 1000 is going to actually cost 1500+ much of the time 16:34:32 I didn't know how to set it up... only used plain walls 16:34:34 ##. 16:34:35 would it be possible to change the targeting for bouncing spells to show the predicted path? 16:34:37 .o. 16:34:39 ##@ 16:34:45 used to give a trizap 16:34:45 elliptic: what about making the elec damage type not count AC from metal, and a smaller overall damage boost? 16:35:01 in 0.6 it was nerfed to a dizap 16:35:13 nrook: 1000 is too much, imo. But 400 I could live with. 16:35:19 Wensley: yeah, that's my plan, but I have my hands way too full for 0.9 16:35:21 you can save for that amount realistically 16:35:43 elliptic: hasting/healing 400, teleporation 250 -- sounds acceptable? 16:36:08 elliptic: bumping the spells would be fine to me, of course 16:36:09 dpeg: yes, 400 sounds sensible 16:36:12 charge = 10% would work for a start too, imo 16:36:13 is base price +/- random factor, or just + random factor? because 400 is really on the low end, if it can get lower than that in an actual shop that's bad imo 16:36:25 dpeg: well, what is the full formula? 16:36:38 400 + 40*charges, is what I propose right now 16:37:12 a healing charge is worth more than !HW, for example 16:37:26 I believe it's just +, though I'm not sure 16:37:53 dpeg: that might be reasonable, yeah 16:37:55 Eronarn: the current price is 270 + 6*charges, which I cannot believe :) 16:37:59 start at 400 but all shops are at least that if not more is possibly okay... if 400 is the median that strikes me as very low because of how valuable it is to have the wand 16:38:11 dpeg: well, that's why we're changing it, right? :P 16:38:15 yes! 16:38:18 it definitely leans way toward +, anyway 16:38:19 Eronarn: that's the base 16:38:37 kilobyte: yeah, i don't know whether the formula can only add to the base, or if it can subtract 16:38:38 Eronarn: add the random factor, which can be big, and price of charges 16:38:47 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 16:39:08 I always disliked how you'd always buy the wand with most charges in a wand shop, since charges are so criminally cheap -- that was the other reason (apart from useless items at 1$) to want to change prices 16:39:32 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 16:39:58 on the other hand, no one buys most wands 16:40:29 but when you buy an attack wand, it is plain to see 16:40:34 digging, healing, hasting... sometimes teleport. 16:40:54 i think the attack wands are simply priced too high overall 16:41:01 both in base cost and charge cost 16:41:04 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:41:04 which implies that bad wands should be cheaper 16:41:29 i'd actually be tempted to start from 1 GP, for magic dart 16:41:35 -!- RichardHawk has joined ##crawl-dev 16:41:47 half the wands have very low value if empty 16:41:49 a wand of magic darts is essentially worthless apart from whatever its charges are worth 16:41:50 magic dart has 40 + 0.9*charges 16:42:05 can go down to 10 + charges imo 16:42:27 dpeg: are you just using arbitrary costs per charge, or tethering it to scroll price? 16:42:34 that sounds about right 16:42:50 ?recharge is only going to be used on expensive wands, so it's only really relevant there 16:42:59 no one is ever going to recharge /darts 16:43:27 Eronarn: 14:36:34 <@dpeg> charge = 10% would work for a start too, imo 16:43:36 Eronarn: I don't think that charge price should be closely related to ?recharging price 16:43:40 i.e. each charge is 10% of the base cost 16:43:42 yes 16:43:51 we can always change the price of ?recharge later anyway 16:43:51 that seems to work well 16:43:54 buying an attack wand early on is usually a good idea, but i do agree that some of the prices are too high 16:43:58 dpeg: cheaper wands get more charges back for a recharge scroll 16:44:01 so it makes sense 16:49:03 is there a way for the m tab to default to !progress instead of !training? 16:49:17 jeanjacques: yes, I'm changing it. 16:49:31 at least for manual mode 16:49:42 not sure yet about auto mode 16:50:18 no way to just have a "last used" check? 16:52:29 yeah, I'll add that 16:52:31 btw 16:52:44 T'es français au moins avec un pseudo pareil! 16:53:23 I tried to dig out how prices are modified, but failed (I found what looked like a minimum .5 surcharge on prices for normal consumable shops, but that clashes with what I've seen) 16:53:40 init.txt should have a setting to default to manual 16:53:47 it definitely looks like they're at least almost always higher than base prices 16:54:28 i am not french despite the nick :) 16:55:42 the big attack wands (fire,cold,fireball) are probably okay at 180 + 18*charges? 16:56:41 that makes them much more expensive, though, and I don't think they're particularly underpriced now 16:57:22 maybe something like 100 + 20 * charges? 16:59:00 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:59:31 currently 180+4*c, so what about 120+12*c? 17:01:40 that seems fine 17:02:18 03elliptic * r7e9c12038af1 10/crawl-ref/source/zap-data.h: Buff Shock and Lightning Bolt slightly. 17:03:17 okay, so let us agree on: charges are 10% of wand price; an empty wand is sold for half base price? And we only need to settle wand prices. 17:04:06 I feel like for cheap wands, charges should be the vast majority of the price 17:05:04 10% is fine for anything above, say, polymorph 17:05:06 half base price? with a base price of 400 for healing? 17:05:21 yes 17:05:27 um that's really really low 17:05:41 200 for an empty /healing is a bargain, but they don't sell empty wands :) 17:05:43 eronarn: remember actual prices in stores are usually higher 17:05:45 yes 17:06:19 nrook: okay, we can make up a formula that has charge=wand/3 for low prices and wand/10 at the top end? 17:07:56 dpeg: we can even just arbitrarily put wand types into the "charge=wand/3" and "charge=wand/10" bins 17:08:21 nrook: or that, whatever is easier for us 17:09:29 I'm thinking heal, haste, tele, cold, fire, fireball, invis, drain, lightning, digging are "inherently valuable", and thus get the charge=wand/10 formula 17:09:36 and everybody else isn't 17:09:56 putting everything into two bins has the virtue of being simple, of course 17:09:57 nrook: sounds reasonable to me 17:10:12 disint? 17:10:40 that's one that everyone always wants to carry, at least 17:10:53 that one is good but it's definitely the other attack wands listed there because it checks MR 17:10:54 disint is borderline... early on it is pretty great, but by midgame you only want a couple charges from it ever 17:10:57 its mostly just for statues 17:11:09 right, but you still always want it :P 17:11:10 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:11:13 or you use it as fake digging 17:11:13 even if it is just for statues 17:11:15 meant to say "definitely worse than" 17:11:28 I'd be fine with it being in the upper bin though 17:11:38 fake digging is still pretty good 17:11:42 it's fine either way, really, so it can go in the upper bin 17:11:45 yes 17:11:56 so we sort the bins by price tag of the base wand, right? 17:12:31 yes 17:12:36 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 17:12:51 only one little worry: !speed costs 55, but charges of /haste cost 400 / 10 = 40? 17:13:28 hm 17:13:47 you could raise both healing and hasting to 550 17:14:00 similarly, ?tele is 30, but /tele is only 250 17:14:10 and /tele to 300 17:14:14 steep prices :) 17:14:48 nrook: note though that you are paying a surcharge already for having the consumables in wand form 17:15:06 550 seems too steep 17:15:17 I think the same 17:15:29 it is fair that you get a better price when you buy wholesale :) 17:15:32 I would like a player seeing it in an early shop to ponder saving for it 17:15:39 nrook: also that :) 17:15:42 and elliptic is right, you're partly paying in terms of the base price 17:15:47 dpeg: well, being 550 isn't bad for that 17:15:57 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:15:58 currently you always save for it 17:16:04 elliptic: yes, but that is why I spoke against 1000 17:16:04 500 is nice and round 17:16:08 being more expensive makes it a more interesting choice 17:16:27 500 for healing and hasting and 250 for teleport sounds fine to me 17:17:58 healing,haste:500 (was 270), teleport:250 (was 225), cold,fire,fireball:180, invis,drain,light,disint:150 (was 158 and 144) 17:18:18 03galehar * r4985ec083058 10/crawl-ref/source/skill_menu.cc: Revert "Prevent disabling the last skill enabled." 17:18:18 03galehar * r91cb3cb2e340 10/crawl-ref/source/ (skill_menu.cc skill_menu.h): Prevent exiting the skill menu with all skills disabled. 17:18:18 03galehar * rc489c6d0edec 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Don't crash when disabling all skills in the skill menu. 17:18:19 digging should also go to 150 (was 90) 17:18:29 03galehar * rf4ba86aa64a9 10/crawl-ref/source/stash.cc: Fix sorting by distance in search results (#3506). 17:18:29 03galehar * r68821a503845 10/crawl-ref/source/ (godabil.cc skill_menu.cc): Skill menu: default view to progress and remember its state. 17:18:48 Weren't we bringing the cold/fire/fb down to 120? 17:19:02 right, I forgot :) 17:19:05 180 + 18x is very expensive for an attack wand 17:19:24 better you compile the list, I am trying to test minmay's elf vaults in parallel 17:19:31 yes, I'm doing that now 17:19:52 nrook: what are those wands currently? 17:19:53 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-917-g68821a5 (32) 17:20:23 elliptic: 180 + 4x 17:20:46 There's an Ely temple where there's a neutral quadraped wandering around 17:20:47 so the old price is almost equal to the new one at 6 charges 17:20:53 Should we make him summon something nasty if you kill it? 17:21:01 er, the new one is slightly less than the old 17:21:22 nrook: I thought the idea was to make the new price 60 + 12x 17:21:48 which sounds low to me 17:22:04 elliptic: I suggested 120+12x (10% charge for the good wands) 17:22:21 dpeg: you suggested "an empty wand is sold for half base price?" 17:22:46 elliptic: yes, but I think this is just for hygiene, I have never seen an empty wand 17:23:04 status quo is 50 less, which is also fine 17:23:09 oh, I assumed that this meant 60 + 12x, not special-casing empty wands 17:23:13 dpeg: uhm, it's a very important thing. Nemelex. 17:23:19 New prices: http://pastebin.com/e3ewqPfe 17:23:27 kilobyte: right! I am for half price now :) 17:23:34 I haven't thought at all about the cheap wand prices, just wanted to get something up 17:24:59 Can I get some additional feedback on the abyss? 17:25:00 dpeg: half price leads to quite degenerate behaviour, where people use all charges but one 17:25:01 this would mean though that Nemelexites are best advised to sac their wands with one charge left -- one more spoiler for them 17:25:07 kilobyte: I know :) 17:25:08 And my modifications to Labyrinth maprot. 17:25:12 dpeg: yes, I'd much rather not special case it 17:25:18 morning 17:25:23 Hi due 17:25:28 bmh: sorry, no time :( 17:25:46 dpeg: You're welcome to just merge my changes :-) 17:26:06 this would also help with pricing hasting/teleport charges to be no lower than the consumable 17:26:19 bmh: I think kilobyte and galehar are familiar with them... they will merge once they have the time 17:26:34 dpeg: I'm fighting with the merge. 17:26:40 !coffee kilobyte 17:26:41 * Henzell hands kilobyte a cup of latte macchiato, brewed by Yredelemnul. 17:26:47 due to nasty whitespace conflicts all around, it's a hell :( 17:26:51 dpeg: still recovering from your fight with git? 17:26:57 kilobyte: abyss? 17:27:00 Overflow altar vaults shouldn't give out very good items. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4221) by st 17:27:01 galehar: today I used git am! 17:27:02 galehar: yeah 17:27:29 galehar: just dumping it in one blob would be easy, but would make reversal hard 17:27:32 Can we drop the Chei altar that has !slow? 17:27:47 we did already :P 17:27:50 bmh: yes, probably 17:27:54 ah, thank Marvin 17:27:55 MarvinPA: Thank you! 17:28:02 we added a guaranteed book for Ash instead 17:28:06 although speaking of which, i'm not a great fan of the ash altar vault that gives you a book of cantrips 17:28:11 yeah 17:28:14 i seem to get that ash book almost every game 17:28:22 we can just reduce the weight 17:28:36 as I just suggested on mantis, replace it with an artefact book with animate skeleton 17:28:39 more to the point :P 17:28:49 Trog has a book, but you can't get it until quite late (need apportation) 17:28:50 re Nemelex, is it okay that you first use up the wand and then still sac the empty wand for good piety? 17:28:53 yeah 17:29:06 due: can you do that? 17:29:15 You are known to have written custom books :) 17:29:36 kilobyte: it also will sometimes explode the second time you see it, preventing you from apporting it... unfortunately it doesn't actually seem to do this consistently at the moment :/ 17:30:32 dpeg: that seems unavoidable, and much better than using up all charges but one and then sacrificing 17:31:51 dpeg: randbook owner:Ashenzari disc:necromancy spell:animate_skeleton numspells:1 17:32:10 (copying from the lugonu altar vault that does a custom book) 17:32:16 hm, Nemelex could use his own scheme ... I know this is more work for us, but would you as a god like empty wands? Come on :) 17:32:18 03galehar * re48995052134 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Don't crash when gaining XP with all skills at 27 (#4219). 17:32:23 elliptic: okay will do 17:32:31 an empty wand is still valuable 17:32:50 as a god, I've got to do something with this huge pile of ?recharge scrolls people sacrificed to me 17:33:02 dpeg: empoty wand of healing is pretty nice 17:33:06 I doubt you'd make good Nemelexes :) 17:33:25 who sacrifices ?recharge though?! I'd want better worshippers :P 17:33:32 yes 17:34:15 I'm just afraid of the "sacrifice a wand at one charge" effect 17:34:43 elliptic: didn't work 17:34:58 oh, maybe necromancy is wrong there 17:35:03 nrook: I would have Nemelex care only about the charges and amplify their value a lot 17:35:06 i think just "necr" does it 17:35:10 yeah 17:35:16 elliptic: we can use a title: too 17:35:34 elliptic: like "Ashenzari's book of Skeletal Cook" or something 17:35:43 because otherwise it will get some silly name 17:35:51 I don't get the correct spell atm :( 17:36:32 Skeletal cook is cool. 17:36:43 dpeg: that works; it only really breaks down for /haste, /heal, /tele, but no one is going to sac those anyway 17:36:59 bmh: what changes are there to your abyss? 17:37:09 Wensley: github.com/bhickey/crawl 17:37:28 I don't know what that means! :) are there any new features of it that need testing? 17:37:47 -!- upsy_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:38:17 Wensley: vaults get destroyed, the abyss *does* jump occasionally, I modified how maprot works 17:38:56 I will have time to check it out tomorrow, is your server up to date or should I compile from your source? 17:39:02 I'll get my server up to date 17:39:16 awesome :) I would be so psyched if 0.9 had the new abyss 17:39:31 title:Skeletal cook can still give "Ashenzari's Almanac of Skeletal cook" 17:40:10 I'd like "Ashenzari's skeletal cookbook" 17:40:21 is there a cool way of saying "skeletal cook" in french? that is the language I think of when I think fancy cuisine :P 17:40:24 Kikubaaqudgha's Papyrus of Ashenzari's book of Skeletal Cook 17:40:31 need owner: or something 17:40:36 I have owner 17:40:45 ITEM: randbook owner:Ashenzari desc:necr title:Skeletal_cook spells:animate_skeleton numspells:1 17:40:59 Wensley: building, I'll try to get it live before I go to sleep 17:41:01 dpeg: <3 17:41:09 but it has this little flaw 17:41:10 i'm pretty sure all the randbook syntax is documented somewhere 17:41:24 bmh: excellent, I look forward to trying it out tomorrow :) 17:41:34 Wensley: worst cuisine I know... and certainly the most overadvertised one 17:41:50 !send kilobyte frogs 17:41:51 Sending frogs to kilobyte. 17:42:21 Wensley: and by "before I go to bed" I mean "in the next 30 minutes" 17:42:59 bmh: no need, I'm trying to do the same 17:43:20 (no guarantees, though) 17:44:31 galehar: you can still disable all skills then SIGHUP 17:45:33 really? Works fine here. 17:45:39 save file? 17:45:56 oh sorry, I misunderstood 17:46:18 03galehar * r46cc870dce19 10/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc: Fix a compiler warning. 17:46:40 it is not clear to me where mapdef.cc hands out the additional part of the title 17:47:00 kilobyte: what happens on SIGHUP? Emergency save? 17:47:05 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 17:47:09 dpeg: it doesn't, I don't think; it hands all those values through to a function that does it 17:47:13 a regular save if possible 17:47:30 if not, the game dies without saving 17:47:47 kilobyte: well then it would be even more appropriate, how much do expect from a meal that's been magically ripped from the bones of a corpse? :P 17:47:57 Wensley: <3 17:48:03 i - Ashenzari's Almanac of Skeletal cook 17:48:03 j - Ashenzari's Compendium of Skeletal cook 17:48:04 :( 17:48:09 then I can check on loading the game. If no skill is enabled, just enable the first one. 17:48:21 galehar: IIRC it tries to escape out of whatever menu it is in 17:48:37 and &A0 ? 17:49:09 btw, any objections to nrook's http://pastebin.com/e3ewqPfe 17:49:37 dpeg: I see no obvious way... does someone else? We can either go within existing features, or just add full_title: or something. 17:49:50 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:49:50 dpeg: I still like formulas like 250 + 50x better 17:50:21 kilobyte: I will just push and make a comment and an FR 17:50:31 elliptic: for what? 17:50:39 for wands 17:50:46 rather than having the base wand be worth 10 charges 17:50:50 that seems pretty excessive 17:51:00 kilobyte: I'll think about it. Have to sleep now. 17:51:37 elliptic: for which wand would you like 250+50x? 17:52:09 it was just an example of the type of formula I'd prefer, I'd probably actually go for 300+60x for hasting/healing 17:53:01 elliptic: okay, then you have to come up with more numbers :) 17:53:01 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]] 17:54:51 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: zzz] 17:55:06 I don't think the difference is really that important in practice 17:55:11 in any case, gotta go, be back later :) 17:55:14 raalph (L1 FeBe) ASSERT(next_line >= n) in 'message.cc' at line 449 failed. (D:1) 17:55:53 -!- nrook has left ##crawl-dev 17:56:57 due: do you recall where custom shops are defined already? Or how? 17:58:13 elliptic: so your point is that charges should be worth even more than 10%? 17:58:18 03dpeg * r84e00197ec5c 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: Kobold camp fire minivault (lexackson), #4130. 17:58:18 03dpeg * rc7eb093b6ae1 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/zot.des: Awesome set of zot entry vaults (evilmake), #4101. 17:58:18 03dpeg * r6386c61f6397 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/zot.des: Orb chamber vault (MrPerson), #2871. 17:58:20 dpeg: i'm not sure if they ever got coded 17:58:29 03dpeg * r4e8660f40eac 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/zot.des: No random hostile statue in new orb chamber. 17:58:29 03dpeg * r20595f0baef2 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/elf.des: Seven Elf:5 vaults (minmay), #3659. 17:58:29 03dpeg * rbb5b85c683b9 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/altar.des: Ashenzari's overflow altar does not give cantrips anymore (elliptic). 17:58:32 due: ah :O 17:59:35 yay 17:59:40 i really didn't like that one 17:59:48 could've said that right away... my increase was from 2% to 10% for good wands, and 2% to 33% for bad wands 18:00:08 dpeg: yeah, it just doesn't seem that reasonable for a 12-charge wand to only cost twice as much as a 1-charge wand 18:00:23 should be more like 20% and 50% IMO 18:00:46 but I also agree with nrook that it doesn't matter that much, and I don't have the time right now to come up with more numbers 18:00:49 !tell wensley The server will be live in a couple of minutes, crawl@ch4n.org, password 'crawl' port 404 18:00:51 bmh: OK, I'll let wensley know. 18:01:14 elliptic: fine by me, you should have just told us earlier :) 18:01:14 -!- evilmike is now known as evilmake 18:01:43 yeah, I just thought all the numbers were double what they were because of the empty wand confusion 18:02:00 haha 18:03:01 anyway, have to go... 18:08:48 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:10:19 !tell nrook New proposal: good wands use base(1+charges/4), bad wands use base(1+charges/2). Base prices: heal/haste 240, tele 120, cold/fire/ball/dig 80, inv/drain/light/disint 40 --- enslave/para/poly 20, flame/frost/random 10, dart 6 18:10:20 dpeg: OK, I'll let nrook know. 18:11:02 dpeg: Homework problem, compute the expected value of !recharging :) 18:11:18 haha 18:11:40 my students have a lot of trouble with expected value, they should really do it 18:12:21 I had trouble with probability until I became an acolyte of Thomas Bayes. 18:12:50 (Now I have two problems) 18:13:22 with EV, really? like in intro stats/econ? (not sure what you teach) 18:14:13 and I'm out. 18:14:15 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 18:15:21 Eronarn: oh, just elementary stuff for future teachers 18:17:50 !tell bmh You sure you wanted one jelly and two sheep? 18:17:51 dpeg: OK, I'll let bmh know. 18:26:18 03dpeg * r1eecd5828149 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/altar.des: Xom overflow vault (bmh), #4220. 18:33:14 dpeg: lexackson_kobold_supper shouldn't use name_species, it will make the kobold drop a "corpse of hungry kobold" 18:34:40 a "corpse of young halfling" might be acceptable though (not sure about that) 18:35:51 syntax.des gives as example "kobold name:ugly name_adjective" 18:37:22 Bat form makes monster weapon graphics disappear (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4222) by rriegs 18:37:52 dpeg: yeah, without name_species 18:39:29 I will try to repair this tomorrow. Good catch! 18:39:48 !tell dpeg lexackson_kobold_supper shouldn't use name_species, it will make the kobold drop a "corpse of hungry kobold" 18:39:48 dpeg: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 18:51:51 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 18:56:16 !tell bmh uhm, is Abyss supposed to morph just next to you? Walking and getting lava or walls spawn just in your way is tedious, and forces you to watch your step... while old Abyss allowed quite rapid movement. 18:56:16 kilobyte: OK, I'll let bmh know. 18:56:37 !messages 18:56:38 (1/1) dpeg said (46m 19s ago): New proposal: good wands use base(1+charges/4), bad wands use base(1+charges/2). Base prices: heal/haste 240, tele 120, cold/fire/ball/dig 80, inv/drain/light/disint 40 --- enslave/para/poly 20, flame/frost/random 10, dart 6 18:57:12 nrook: I compared with some randomly made shops and it seems okay (the randomisation is missing with the new numbers, so we may overshoot). 18:57:12 dpeg: You have 5 messages. Use !messages to read them. 18:57:46 nrook: elliptic pointed out that 10% is still too less for good wands, so I increased to 25%. 18:59:59 dpeg: 25% seems appropriate for everything worse than heal/haste/tele, and while I'm not sure it's right for the top-tier wands, it's a small enough difference that it's not worth arguing 19:01:15 nrook: so you suggest 25% for everything instead of 25% for good and 50% for bad? 19:01:40 dpeg: oh, I misspoke---I meant that I think 25% is fine for good wands other than the top ones 19:02:30 I decreased the base prices for the top tier, as you can see.... with that it might be ok 19:03:36 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 19:04:24 I think anyone would buy a /heal (1) for 300 19:04:41 still more expensive than today 19:04:56 and /heal (6) would be 480 19:05:11 erm, 600 :) 19:05:11 but it doesn't matter that much 19:05:19 besides, I might be wrong :) 19:05:47 same for me! 19:05:48 I'd buy a /heal (0) for $1000 19:06:05 me too 19:06:19 due: yes, we know. But we don't want prices like that. 19:06:43 part of the problem is that you accumulate money until it means nothing anymore... takes quite a while to get 1000 gold. 19:09:46 high charge prices do have the advantage that they mitigate the nemelex issue, too 19:10:26 yes, I am aware of that 19:10:55 nrook: it is late over here. Perhaps you mull it over and then !tell (or mail) me what you think? 19:11:58 dpeg: I can tell you now: If I were king of Crawl I'd bring the charge % down a bit from 25, but the difference is slight and the current numbers are good enough, so I request no changes :) 19:13:08 nrook: well, elliptic suggested 20%, which is also fine. I went with 25% and 50% as that'S just 1/4 and 1/2 of base price. No big deal either way, imo. 19:13:57 dpeg: indeed! Do you want me to implement now and send you a patch? 19:14:16 that would be very helpful 19:14:44 I just opened shopping.cc and it would manange, I think, but 2am and an appointment at 9.30 :( 19:14:51 *I would manage 19:15:01 it's only 8pm where I am, so better this way :) 19:15:30 thank you! see you tomorrow then 19:16:50 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 19:22:20 03brendan 07abyss * rde23c2d0c8f2 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): A worley-noise abyss 19:22:20 03brendan 07abyss * rc45340067ec4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abyss.cc cellular.cc startup.cc): Fixed initialization bug. Increased disorder 19:22:20 03brendan 07abyss * r776f40ddf444 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abyss.cc cellular.cc cellular.h): Some terrain is now generated with the original Abyss algorithm 19:22:21 03brendan 07abyss * r74c53e2bdf96 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Making the Abyss reproducible 19:22:21 03brendan 07abyss * r135642df1cd7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abyss.cc abyss.h main.cc): First pass at abyss morphing 19:22:21 03brendan 07abyss * rc70dd6c9b586 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Implemented monster displacement and non-RNG morphing 19:22:21 03brendan 07abyss * r9a97d5d991cf 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Added clouds as the abyss shifts. 19:22:30 03brendan 07abyss * r934f05515efc 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Added notification for monster telefragging. 19:22:30 03brendan 07abyss * r433bf2afe02d 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Only bloody when telefragging. 19:22:31 03brendan 07abyss * r6608256da71e 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Randomized the abyss. 19:22:31 03brendan 07abyss * r90db7f20ca5f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abyss.cc abyss.h dungeon.cc effects.cc main.cc player.cc): Fixed up map rot. 19:22:31 03brendan 07abyss * r136076e231c3 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: New Lab/Abyss map rot code. 19:22:31 03kilobyte 07abyss * rddb1b806413b 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Make some stuff static. 19:22:32 03kilobyte 07abyss * r0f18c7f83b27 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Simplify away a global variable. 19:22:32 03kilobyte 07abyss * r20850811713e 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Formatting changes. 19:22:39 03kilobyte 07abyss * r67cdbdb44e4f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files): Encase new Abyss code in #ifdefs. 19:22:39 03kilobyte * r6fae6d61d3cf 10/crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Whitespace fixes. 19:22:39 03kilobyte * rea7ead2f9cda 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: Dead kobolds are not hungry anymore. 19:25:00 !tell bmh features turn into another every a few turns (like, a pool of lava turns into stone, then the same pool becomes rock, etc). Seems like a nasty regression, and thus I'm not merging yet. 19:25:01 kilobyte: OK, I'll let bmh know. 19:35:26 -!- syllogism has quit [] 19:49:44 -!- nrook has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:51:21 aleksiL (L27 NaWz) ERROR in 'skills.cc' at line 526: Can't find a skill to train. (Vault:8) 19:56:01 -!- golgepapaz has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0/20110318052756]] 20:04:38 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 20:10:55 -!- GrimmSweeper has joined ##crawl-dev 20:14:00 -!- cesium has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:49 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:25:17 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 20:34:36 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35:22 -!- evilmake is now known as evilmike 20:37:16 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 20:42:12 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:11:54 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:33:37 -!- casmith789 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:42:29 -!- Zannick has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:43:40 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 21:44:26 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 21:45:57 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:24:19 Gandelf (L4 DDBe) ASSERT(scaled_total <= scale_to) in 'skills.cc' at line 412 failed. (D:3) 22:28:59 !tell galehar Gandelf (L4 DDBe) ASSERT(scaled_total <= scale_to) in 'skills.cc' at line 412 failed. (D:3) 22:28:59 due: OK, I'll let galehar know. 22:29:12 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:50:28 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 22:51:23 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:06:22 Garhauk (L3 MuNe) ASSERT(scaled_total <= scale_to) in 'skills.cc' at line 412 failed. (D:3) 23:08:23 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:47 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:12:01 -!- Garhauk has joined ##crawl-dev 23:32:26 -!- Garhauk has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330]] 23:48:02 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev