00:00:40 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-819-g525e5dc (32)
00:07:50 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-819-g525e5dc
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00:51:08 <Zaba> moin
01:00:15 <CIA-51> 03zaba * rba280a819eba 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/ (8 files in 4 dirs): Whitespace fixes in vaults.
01:00:25 <CIA-51> 03zaba * rfc8866f2c086 10/crawl-ref/source/ (fight.cc initfile.cc item_use.cc options.h spl-damage.cc): Whitespace fixes in code.
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01:22:06 <Ashenzari> prince ribbit tele bug (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4205) by EndGamer
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03:24:45 <ghallberg> I did something wrong with the revert, now I had to rewrite everything.
03:24:47 <ghallberg> yay.
03:24:53 <ghallberg> At least I know what to write now.
03:26:39 <ion> Look at git reflog first.
03:26:53 <ghallberg> ion: to late :) But it wasn't that much anyhow
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03:37:49 <ghallberg> Ok let's see if I got everything :P
03:40:25 <due> yo
03:40:25 <Henzell> due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
03:40:28 <due> !messages
03:40:28 <Henzell> (1/1) dpeg said (7h 52m 17s ago): You're our local lua expert these days. Is there a function to check whether a monster is in LOS?
03:41:56 <due> !tell dpeg Without checking: I think there's a wrapper for mon.observable(). It just depends on the context: dlua, definittely, and if it doesn't, it should be created. For clua... I'm not sure what's in monster_info or not.
03:41:59 <Henzell> due: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
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03:49:37 <Zaba> due, I think dpeg is referring to the code added in d4837a454a295ab52636a36882e3cfd6bccddfd2
03:49:47 <Zaba> due, which is somewhat messy
03:50:10 <Zaba> due, -especially- the part with callback.see_monster
03:51:43 <Zaba> due, but as you can see, it's checking for whether there is any monster in los, rather than a specific one
03:51:49 <due> hm
03:52:06 <RichardHawk> What's a good resource for reading up on the functions of the language used in crawl code?
03:52:19 <Zaba> RichardHawk, the source code
03:52:28 <due> RichardHawk: any standard library reference
03:52:43 <galehar> functions of the language? You mean c++?
03:52:43 <due> Lua's stdlib reference, C++'s, etc
03:52:47 <cesium> Lua error: Can't find "lua/pickup.lua"
03:53:17 <due> Zaba: at the very least it should use the LOS iterator :/
03:53:35 <Zaba> due, yes, and just return true straight away instead of using a variable
03:54:05 <Zaba> and I don't really understand what it takes as arguments, that could be cleaned up also
03:54:14 <due> the LOS iterator?
03:54:19 <Zaba> no, the function
03:54:21 <due> oh
03:54:49 <due> i'm assuming it's coded to take (point) or (x, y)
03:54:49 <Zaba> it's only called in one specific way
03:54:50 <RichardHawk> Ah, so it's c++? Okay, thanks.
03:55:05 <Zaba> it's never called as (point)
03:55:07 <due> RichardHawk: er, yeah
03:56:40 <Zaba> due, will you take care of that code?
03:56:53 <due> it's... interesting but i'm not sure lua is really stable enough to rely on
03:57:50 <Zaba> hm?
03:58:08 <due> i've only myself to blame, really :
03:58:09 <due> *:)
03:58:19 <ghallberg> !galehar New patch-file up on mantis. Feels pretty done to me, test and tell me where I failed  ;)
03:58:25 <ghallberg> !tell galehar New patch-file up on mantis. Feels pretty done to me, test and tell me where I failed  ;)
03:58:25 <Henzell> ghallberg: OK, I'll let galehar know.
03:58:42 <galehar> ghallberg: I'm here
03:58:42 <Henzell> galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
03:58:46 <galehar> !messages
03:58:46 <Henzell> (1/1) ghallberg said (21s ago): New patch-file up on mantis. Feels pretty done to me, test and tell me where I failed  ;)
03:58:47 <ghallberg> Anyone else care to test run the 'D' functionality?
03:58:57 <ghallberg> galehar: You weren't last time I checked :P
03:59:01 <galehar> thanks will look into it
03:59:50 <due> ... why is it generating a stone giant with a robe?
04:00:12 <ghallberg> due: I REALLY hope that's not related to my patch.
04:00:21 <due> what?
04:00:23 <due> no
04:00:26 <ghallberg> :P
04:00:37 <due> we've been discussing some lua stuff for longer than you've been talking about your patch :p
04:00:51 <ghallberg> :)
04:01:06 <due> also, see_monster would fail anyway
04:01:10 <due> if there were an invisible monster.
04:02:14 <Zaba> it can be simplified by 1) taking x, y directly as arguments, 2) collapsing 'if's into one, 3) returning true in the loop and false outside it instead of using a variable
04:02:20 <Zaba> and probably using some kind of an iterator
04:02:23 <due> yeah
04:02:30 <due> there should be a monster iterator, iirc
04:03:41 <due> yeah, iter.monster_filter
04:04:04 <due> do all of these functions still work since the recent lua changes?
04:04:07 <due> well, not so rercent.
04:05:00 <galehar> ghallberg: something's wrong with your patch. There's plenty of stuff unrelated to drop last
04:05:05 <galehar> like auto_switch
04:05:15 <galehar> I think you messed up with git
04:05:18 <galehar> again :P
04:05:20 <ghallberg> galehar: Ok, I'll see what I ca do :(
04:05:46 <Zaba> due, what changes?
04:06:15 <galehar> you must have git reset HEAD~n too far away.
04:06:24 <due> Zaba: i've been on a sabbatical for about eight months, remember. greensnark did a lot of changes to code that required callbacks and so-on for triggerables, etc.
04:06:41 <due> Zaba: i'm unsure whether the closures that are used for filtering in iter.lua are compatible
04:07:01 <Zaba> ah
04:07:04 <Zaba> neither am I :P
04:07:19 <Zaba> check some of the existing use cases, I guess
04:07:30 <Zaba> (assuming there _are_ existing use cases...)
04:07:45 <due> I don't think there are
04:08:03 <due> I think I wrote the entirety of iter.lua in one night and didn't end up using some of the stuff I coded
04:08:20 <due> or at least, it got stashed/refactored/dumped/etc
04:08:24 <galehar> ghallberg: for each file your patch doesn't touch, restore it using: git checkout master file.cc
04:08:34 <ghallberg> galehar: ok
04:20:41 <ghallberg> git is hard! :D
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04:27:10 <ghallberg> galehar: New one, shoudl be better.
04:27:19 <galehar> it has a steep learning curve. Like crawl :)
04:27:28 <ghallberg> Yeah and I still haven't learned crawl :P
04:28:39 <galehar> patch apply, there's progress :)
04:33:33 <galehar> seems to be working fine, code looks sane. Good work!
04:35:56 <galehar> you should be extra careful about inserting a value inside an enum. It can break save compatiblity. But this one is ok, command_type isn't saved.
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04:37:55 <Zaba> galehar, btw, when you cleaned up formatting in the auto_switch code, you've missed a bunch of tabs
04:38:21 <Zaba> galehar, use checkwhite :P
04:38:29 <galehar> yes, will do.
04:38:33 <galehar> thanks for noticing.
04:43:39 <galehar> ghallberg: the map isn't saved. Means if you pick some stuff, save your game, reload and (D)rop, it won't work. But it's ok, no need to worry about that.
04:44:07 <ghallberg> galehar: Ok, cool.
04:48:22 <CIA-51> 03galehar * rff10640bbb16 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files): New command: (D)rop last. Drops the last item(s) picked up (ghallberg).
04:49:58 <ion> If you do Drop Last twice, does it drop the two sets of items you picked up previously?
04:50:24 <galehar> no. The second will only says that there's nothing to drop.
04:51:15 <galehar> Using a stack would be overly complicated to code and to use for very little benefit.
04:51:50 <ghallberg> What galehar said.
04:53:09 <ion> Ok, so to accumulate items from different tiles, to be dropped at once pick up stuff, move to the next tile, Drop Last, pick up everything, redo.
04:54:19 <ghallberg> ion: easier to just do that with regular drop interface?
04:54:38 <ghallberg> Drop_last is mostly for mistakes or auto_pikcup you don't want.
04:55:02 <galehar> ghallberg: next step if you're up to: q^ quaff the last potion picked up. If there are several, show a menu with all the potions from last_pickup. Same for eat, read,...
04:55:33 <ghallberg> galehar: Gonna play a few games, and maybe study a bit.
04:55:36 <galehar> ghallberg: I think drop_last is also very useful for moving small stashes around.
04:55:49 <ghallberg> Absolutely.
04:56:02 <ghallberg> To each his own :)
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05:51:35 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever.
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06:11:06 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever.
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06:27:29 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever.
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06:59:07 <dpeg_> Zaba, due: if you can improve the xom trap vault, that'd be awesome. I can't :)
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08:43:11 <dpeg_> hi!
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08:44:45 <dpeg_> I have a conflict :O
08:44:46 <galehar> hi MarvinPA and dpeg_!
08:44:53 <MarvinPA> hey :)
08:44:59 <galehar> dpeg_: did you get any sleep last night?
08:45:06 <dpeg_> little
08:45:12 <bhaak> conflict? developing dcss or playing incomplete jade?
08:45:13 <dpeg_> but only ten more vault contributions to go :)
08:45:14 <MarvinPA> i see the drop last functionality got in, awesome stuff
08:45:22 <dpeg_> yes, that is awesome
08:45:42 <dpeg_> so someone kindly squelched the whitespaces from my nightly commits-- which means I cannot push.
08:45:50 <galehar> yeah, ghallberg finish it this morning and I pushed it.
08:46:01 <dpeg_> What is the easiest way to resolve? Just remove whitespaces locally?
08:46:35 <galehar> conflict with your local commits? You cannot pull?
08:47:33 <dpeg_> yes
08:48:04 <dpeg_> because I went to bed with the next batch of entry vault half-finished, then came the whitespace commit and now I am stuck
08:49:05 <galehar> run util/checkwhite to fix your white spaces locally
08:49:21 <dpeg_> perl scriptß
08:49:22 <dpeg_> ?
08:49:30 <galehar> yes
08:49:51 <galehar> you've got several commits locally?
08:49:51 <Zaba> just don't commit things with broken whitespace in the first place :P
08:50:19 <dpeg_> sorry, I do that all the time
08:50:26 <galehar> my bad. I pushed the auto_switch patch without checking whitespaces.
08:50:41 <dpeg_> I have no idea why people get so worked up about whitespace, it is invisible anyway :)
08:54:29 <dpeg_> git is driving me insane
08:54:45 <dpeg_> can I send someone the three files I want to push :O
08:54:56 <Zaba> dpeg_, what exactly does it not like?
08:55:15 <dpeg_> dpeg@dis:~/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/source$ git push
08:55:15 <dpeg_> To git@gitorious.org:crawl/crawl.git ! [rejected]        master -> master (non-fast-forward)
08:55:18 <dpeg_> error: failed to push some refs to 'git@gitorious.org:crawl/crawl.git'
08:55:21 <dpeg_> To prevent you from losing history, non-fast-forward updates were rejected
08:55:23 <dpeg_> Merge the remote changes (e.g. 'git pull') before pushing again.  See the
08:55:26 <dpeg_> 'Note about fast-forwards' section of 'git push --help' for details.
08:55:29 <dpeg_> dpeg@dis:~/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/source$ git pull
08:55:31 <dpeg_> You are not currently on a branch, so I cannot use any
08:55:34 <dpeg_> 'branch.<branchname>.merge' in your configuration file.
08:55:36 <dpeg_> Please specify which remote branch you want to use on the command
08:55:39 <dpeg_> line and try again (e.g. 'git pull <repository> <refspec>').
08:55:55 <Zaba> uh oh.  What did you do :P
08:56:25 <dpeg_> It is very hard for me to understand what is going on -- I am stumbling around blindly and hate it.
08:56:34 <Zaba> dpeg_, does 'git checkout master' work?
08:56:45 <dpeg_> will I lose my modifications?
08:56:48 * dpeg_ makes backups
08:56:55 <Zaba> if you had them committed, you shouldn't
08:57:36 <dpeg_> dpeg@dis:~/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/source$ git checkout master
08:57:36 <dpeg_> Warning: you are leaving 1 commit behind, not connected to
08:57:36 <dpeg_> any of your branches:
08:57:36 <dpeg_> bf572cf Ten forest & fort themed entry vaults (sevenhm), #3533.
08:57:36 <dpeg_> If you want to keep it by creating a new branch, this may be a good time
08:57:39 <dpeg_> to do so with:
08:57:41 <dpeg_> git branch new_branch_name bf572cf6e5ddcf6ac60d44150e4bb470913cc8ec
08:57:44 <dpeg_> Switched to branch 'master'
08:57:46 <dpeg_> Your branch and 'origin/master' have diverged,
08:57:49 <dpeg_> and have 1 and 3 different commit(s) each, respectively.
08:57:51 <dpeg_> sorry for noise
08:58:59 <Zaba> hm...
08:59:38 <Zaba> dpeg_, bf572cf6e5ddcf6ac60d44150e4bb470913cc8ec is the only commit you've made?
08:59:53 <dpeg_> no idea about the number but yes
09:00:00 <dpeg_> everything else got pushed tonight
09:00:07 <Zaba> well, 'git show bf572cf6e5ddcf6ac60d44150e4bb470913cc8ec' will pretty-print it for you :>
09:00:41 <Zaba> dpeg_, and.. what commit is shown at the top of 'git log'?
09:01:55 <dpeg_> commit 766d206b62abc6ef1ba801cb08a78e0f3bd2dd5a
09:01:55 <dpeg_> Author: David Ploog <dploog@users.sourceforge.net>
09:01:55 <dpeg_> Date:   Sat Jul 2 15:41:14 2011 +0200
09:01:56 <dpeg_> Ten forest themed fort entry vaults (sevenhm), #3533.
09:02:30 <Zaba> dpeg_, is there the 'New command: (D)rop last. ...' commit below it?
09:02:42 <dpeg_> no!
09:02:58 <Zaba> dpeg_, okay.. can you run util/checkwhite?
09:02:59 <dpeg_> I couldn't pull that because I left my forest vaults half-finished tonight.
09:03:03 <dpeg_> I did
09:03:11 <Zaba> did it modify the fort entry vaults?
09:03:25 <dpeg_> I cannot say
09:03:26 <Zaba> or well.  Actually, dat/ at all.
09:03:37 <dpeg_> yes, it did
09:03:38 <Zaba> git add dat; git commit
09:04:17 <dpeg_> not good, I have rubbish (unfinished maps) in my dat
09:04:37 <Zaba> well.. git add -p dat, then.
09:04:41 <dpeg_> git add dat/des/entry/entry_small.des; git commit
09:04:44 <dpeg_> etc?
09:05:22 <dpeg_> # Your branch and 'origin/master' have diverged,
09:05:22 <dpeg_> # and have 1 and 3 different commit(s) each, respectively.
09:05:22 <dpeg_> #
09:05:22 <dpeg_> # Changes to be committed:
09:05:22 <dpeg_> #   (use "git reset HEAD <file>..." to unstage)
09:05:25 <dpeg_> #
09:05:27 <dpeg_> #       new file:   dat/bayou.txt
09:05:30 <dpeg_> #       new file:   dat/des/entry/entry_large.bak
09:05:32 <dpeg_> #       new file:   dat/des/entry/entry_small.bak
09:05:35 <dpeg_> #       new file:   dat/des/portals/bailey.bak
09:05:37 <dpeg_> #       new file:   dat/des/portals/bailey.work
09:05:39 <Zaba> well, that's bad
09:05:40 <dpeg_> none of the new files is supposed to be committed
09:05:43 <Zaba> indeed
09:05:55 <dpeg_> can I send the three modified files to you, and get a clean master over here?
09:05:57 <Zaba> dpeg_, well, git reset HEAD dat (should that work..)
09:06:26 <Zaba> dpeg_, actually, does git pull --rebase work?
09:06:27 <dpeg_> did print no message at all
09:06:52 <dpeg_> dpeg@dis:~/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/source$ git pull --rebase
09:06:52 <dpeg_> It seems that I cannot create a rebase-apply directory, and
09:06:52 <dpeg_> I wonder if you are in the middle of patch application or another
09:06:52 <dpeg_> rebase.  If that is not the case, please rm -fr /home/dpeg/crawl-ref/.git/rebase-apply
09:06:55 <dpeg_> and run me again.  I am stopping in case you still have something
09:06:58 <dpeg_> valuable there.
09:07:27 <Zaba> or is that what you did to cause the problem in the first place?
09:07:39 <dpeg_> I have absolutely no idea.
09:07:57 <dpeg_> I never using anything more complicated than pull,add,commit,push
09:07:58 <Zaba> well, did you to just 'git pull' (which tries to merge) or 'git pull --rebase' in the first place?
09:08:07 <dpeg_> only use git pull
09:08:47 <Zaba> well, you might've needed to git pull --rebase.
09:08:52 <dpeg_> I did
09:09:17 <dpeg_> with the output pasted above
09:09:27 <dpeg_> ah, back then
09:10:30 <dpeg_> I made backup copies of my des files. Can I throw out everything and start afresh?
09:11:27 <Zaba> dpeg_, well, you could
09:12:23 <dpeg_> is there a simple way to do that?
09:12:32 <dpeg_> been years ago since I set up my git
09:12:44 <Zaba> dpeg_, git reset --hard origin/master  will remove all local changes, commits and indexed things, changed files in the working tree, etc.
09:13:40 <dpeg_> but not delete any files outside of the tree, right?
09:13:50 <Zaba> dpeg_, but you could also try: rm -rf /home/dpeg/crawl-ref/.git/rebase-apply ; git stash; git pull --rebase
09:13:55 <Eronarn> i'm not going to send an email about the hexes/charms thing but it would be nice if we could add a note about what 'buff' and 'debuff' mean so that people don't try to make spells like Darkness into charms
09:14:05 <Zaba> dpeg_, of course, it won't change anything outside its jurisdiction
09:15:33 <dpeg_> dpeg@dis:~/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/source$ git pull
09:15:33 <dpeg_> You are not currently on a branch, so I cannot use any
09:15:45 <Zaba> dpeg_, git checkout master; git pull --rebase?
09:16:11 <dpeg_> why does this thing think I am living in my own branchß
09:17:26 <dpeg_> dpeg@dis:~/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/source$ git branch
09:17:26 <dpeg_> * master skill_menu
09:17:39 <dpeg_> so there are only two branches, and I am on master
09:17:43 <Zaba> yes
09:17:52 <dpeg_> but I still cannot pull
09:18:32 <Zaba> dpeg_, well, then, git reset --hard origin/master; restore .des files from backups && run util/checkwhite
09:18:43 <Zaba> dpeg_, and have backups of work-in-progress things, too
09:18:54 <Zaba> fairly sure it will remove untracked files
09:19:14 <Zaba> or maybe not... maybe I'm mixing things up, but better safe than sorry, right?
09:24:17 <CIA-51> 03dpeg * rd98141ce9b2f 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/entry/ (entry_large.des entry_small.des): Ten forest & fort entry vaults (sevenhm); #3533.
09:24:35 <dpeg_> A miracle! :)
09:24:39 <dpeg_> Zaba: many thanks!
09:25:00 <Zaba> hey, this isn't the nicest way to do that, I'm sure something could be done with git-reset
09:25:09 <Zaba> I just lack the experience with git to figure it out :P
09:25:20 <ghallberg> also git stash, helped me this morning :)
09:25:43 * dpeg_ just learned how to use buffers in emacs :)
09:25:57 <ghallberg> GAH EMACS!!! HATE!
09:25:58 <ghallberg> :D
09:26:15 <CIA-51> 03dpeg * r6ed043dc5775 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/levels/syntax.txt: Warning about certain NSUBST declarations.
09:26:33 <dpeg_> ghallberg: worse than mixing wine and coke? I doubt it!
09:27:49 <Zaba> git stash is nice
09:28:05 <dpeg_> I will learn about that right next year.
09:28:16 <CIA-51> 03dpeg * r7706026d770d 10/crawl-ref/ (CREDITS.txt docs/options_guide.txt): Whitespace fixes.
09:29:25 <ghallberg> dpeg_: :)
09:32:19 <CIA-51> 03dolorous * r03aa1fe68413 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/entry/entry_small.des: Fix breakage.
09:32:56 <dpeg_> I get a compilation error.
09:33:28 <dpeg_> dolorous is good
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09:48:49 <Zaba> due, I cleaned up xom_trap.des code a bit, but it could use moar improvement.
09:49:37 <dpeg_> Zaba: cool
09:50:16 <CIA-51> 03zaba * r3e1d1e1ae90a 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/xom_trap.des: Clean up the code in xom_trap.des.
09:52:15 <dpeg_> I guess it is my duty to think about the structure in des/ ?
09:52:39 <dpeg_> Zaba: does the radius iterator not work for the xom trap?
09:55:34 <Zaba> dpeg_, no idea, that requires research.  That's why I say it could use more :>
09:55:53 <Zaba> and well.  the variable/ of des has become a mess lately
09:56:29 <dpeg_> Zaba: sorry -- I am trying to improve it from time to time
09:56:40 <Zaba> I blame all the people who keep coming up with new content.
09:57:14 <Zaba> 13375 lines of .des in variable/ alone! Outrage.
09:57:15 <dpeg_> While trying to pick up his beard from the ground, dpeg recalls a time when all vaults sat in a single file.
09:57:43 <dpeg_> It is very hard to organise the entry vaults alone, for example.
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09:58:10 <dpeg_> I guess today I will split off serial/ and traps/
09:58:27 <Zaba> that sounds good
09:58:54 <dpeg_> 7hm made some more traps, and they're awesome but also huge files... so one trap vault, one file it'll be
10:02:55 <Eronarn> dpeg_: can we try alchemy school for 1.0? :)
10:04:22 <dpeg_> not sure we have enough content
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10:05:47 <Eronarn> dpeg_: it's not a split or an add of a school, but rejiggering poison magic
10:06:14 <Eronarn> it moves the 'explosion' spells out of tmut, where people have always said that they don't belong
10:06:22 <dpeg_> ah, I see
10:07:03 <dpeg_> Has something going for it, I agree -- but not really urgent, in my opinion. If there's a good plan, we can go, of course.
10:07:09 <ghallberg> I've been thinking a little about spell schools, they really seem like two disjunct sets...
10:07:12 <Eronarn> and it lets us have higher level poison magic spells without having to take the poison arrow approach of 'this does damage even to poison resistant things, even though it's a poison spell'
10:07:48 <ghallberg> there's the set of effects (sharm, hex, tmut, conj)
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10:07:58 <ghallberg> and the set of flavours (fire, ice, poison, air)
10:08:17 <ghallberg> Is this something that has been discussed before?
10:08:24 <Eronarn> ghallberg: i actually drew out a diagram of this when i was working on my spell school redo
10:08:32 <ghallberg> Eronarn: Ok, cool.
10:08:50 <ghallberg> I didn't really have anything to propose with that thought, but I find it interesting.
10:08:55 <dpeg_> ghallberg: yes, it has. But the structure alone is neither good nor bad.
10:09:06 <ghallberg> Eronarn: Is that diagram in the wiki or something?
10:09:12 <Eronarn> no, it's on a piece of paper :)
10:09:17 <ghallberg> :)
10:09:27 <ghallberg> dpeg_: Ok.
10:09:31 <Eronarn> but on the outside you have the four elemental schools; on the inside you have tloc, tmut, nec, etc.
10:10:07 <ghallberg> hmm
10:10:23 <Eronarn> and the different 'flavorless' schools had different correspondences to the 'flavored' ones
10:10:23 <dpeg_> git wizards: is there any way to avoid duplicating the typework when creating new folders etc.? (i.e. "mkdir Armageddon; git add Armageddon")
10:10:26 <Eronarn> so tmut with earth
10:10:30 <Eronarn> conj with fire
10:10:31 <ghallberg> In my interpretation I think Nec would go with elements.
10:10:54 <Eronarn> the most neutral ones ended up being tloc, div
10:11:00 <Eronarn> since they had so little overlap with other schools
10:11:12 <Eronarn> and the 'unflavored' schools very rarely overlapped with each other
10:11:43 <Eronarn> i.e., we have no spells that are ench/summ, ench/conj, summ/conj
10:12:20 <Eronarn> ghallberg: certainly an option - it does fit with the fact that there is only one nec + element spell in the game
10:12:43 <Eronarn> however, nec is a bit of an odd beast in that some nec spells are monoschool
10:12:45 <ghallberg> I'm gonna have to think this through tonight.
10:12:54 <ghallberg> Eronarn: That could be changed though.
10:13:01 <Eronarn> i think that i actually consider nec to be one of the better-composed spell schools
10:13:18 <Eronarn> you can stick with it and do your own 'thing', but it has overlaps with many other kinds of magic too
10:13:20 <ghallberg> Nec is coo.
10:13:21 <ghallberg> l
10:13:40 <dpeg_> there are also pure fire spells
10:13:54 <Eronarn> are there? i can't think of one offhand
10:13:57 <ghallberg> And Ice?
10:14:03 <Eronarn> freeze, ozo's refrig
10:14:19 <Eronarn> earth has lots of pure ones now, air has two (airstrike, tornado)
10:14:19 <ghallberg> And tornado now I guess
10:14:23 <MarvinPA> i don't think there's any pure fire
10:14:49 <Eronarn> MarvinPA: we could make ring of flames pure fire, rather than charms, and raise its level so it's not too easy to cast. that might be worthwhile
10:15:10 <MarvinPA> mm, possibly
10:15:24 <MarvinPA> i don't think there necessarily need to be any pure fire spells though :P
10:15:33 <Eronarn> not need to be, no, but if we wanted one that's where i'd look first
10:15:50 <MarvinPA> yeah
10:15:54 <Eronarn> ghallberg: one magic system i really liked is that of Dominions 3
10:16:04 <Eronarn> it has magic schools similar to crawl's
10:17:11 <Eronarn> Air, Astral, Blood, Death, Earth, Fire, Nature, Water
10:17:26 <ghallberg> I'm reading up on wikipedia :)
10:17:37 <Eronarn> astral, blood, death, and nature are counted as 'sorcery', so for example, there is an item that boosts all sorcery by 1
10:18:34 <Eronarn> i forget the terms, but in addition to those 'flavors', you have multiple 'disciplines'
10:19:12 <Eronarn> so if you research Construction, it lets you build magic items, but there are also some spells. and most of the spells in it are Earth
10:19:29 <Eronarn> whereas Thaumaturgy (iirc) has some very good Astral spells (but also some Death ones, etc.)
10:19:49 <ghallberg> ok
10:20:20 <Eronarn> in dom3, this is more like spellbook access or roles (the disciplines) - but it's an interesting look at design as to how you can have two 'kinds' of magic schools that interweave
10:20:28 <Eronarn> without having to have all spells be multi-school spells
10:21:03 <ghallberg> mhm
10:23:50 <Ashenzari> Wrong image (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4206) by Aracanid
10:31:04 <MarvinPA> i'm taking a look at golgepapaz's patch for a -cTele status light, it seems good but shouldn't block you casting cTele entirely in non-ctele areas
10:31:31 <MarvinPA> so i was going to push it without that, but then i guess there's the question of what to display if you do have the cTele duration active in a non-cTele area
10:31:45 <Zaba> -cTele cTele :P
10:31:47 <MarvinPA> cTele -cTele?
10:31:51 <MarvinPA> heh
10:32:02 <MarvinPA> i guess that's probably best, really
10:32:09 <MarvinPA> since you definitely need to be able to know you have the duration active
10:32:19 <Zaba> or maybe ±cTele
10:32:40 <galehar> MarvinPA: maybe put cTele in dark grey
10:33:19 <MarvinPA> yeah, that could work too
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10:34:53 <Eronarn> could do it in the purple color you get when you have fast+slow maybe?
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10:48:01 <Eronarn> dpeg_: alch proposal: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:alchemy
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10:49:05 <dpeg_> did you get a commit of mine about serial/ and traps/ ?
10:52:16 <CIA-51> 03dpeg * r36156b6836b5 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/ (17 files in 6 dirs): Cleaning up in variable/
10:52:26 <CIA-51> 03dpeg * r95d0a5852947 10/crawl-ref/ (2 files in 2 dirs): New trap vault: grates & monsters behind doors (7hm); #3532.
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10:53:07 <Zaba> dpeg_, gnoll camp vaults are also serial, no?
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10:59:15 <dpeg_> Zaba: good point
10:59:32 <Zaba> dpeg_, also, maybe the serial_ prefix could be dropped from the filenames
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11:02:20 <dpeg_> Zaba: hm, good point
11:02:30 <dpeg_> Zaba: I am afraid about duplicated file names
11:02:41 <dpeg_> this is why I didn't rename entry_large.des to large.des, for example
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11:05:00 <dpeg_> the traps are very cool, but we have to find a way to show auto-exploring players within one turn that something strange is happening
11:05:56 <Zaba> dpeg_, I don't think duplicate filenames are a problem
11:06:04 <Zaba> when errors are reported, a full path is used anyway
11:06:25 <dpeg_> ok
11:06:54 <dpeg_> then I'll strip all those prefixes
11:08:12 <Zaba> dpeg_, trap_monster_doors_1 can't be placed, by the way
11:08:18 <Zaba> no DEPTH
11:09:42 <dpeg_> yes, has a depth now
11:09:51 <dpeg_> I tested it with PLACE:D:1
11:09:51 <Zaba> ok
11:10:06 <dpeg_> Zaba: did you try the trap?
11:10:11 <Zaba> not yet
11:10:35 <dpeg_> Have a look! Perhaps you can see how we can catch the player's attention.
11:10:47 <dpeg_> (The Beogh trap I am testing right now does this very well.)
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11:40:16 <CIA-51> 03dpeg * ra3ebcb68ca79 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/traps/ (beogh_trap.des monster_doors.des): New trap: Beogh altar (sevenhm); #3532.
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11:44:17 <CIA-51> 03dpeg * r1efc7ea37c29 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/ (17 files in 2 dirs): Clear up des file names. (Zaba)
11:45:45 <Wensley> New trap: Beogh altar?
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11:46:15 <Wensley> dpeg_: care to elaborate? :)
11:47:29 <dpeg_> Wensley: you'll know when you see it!
11:47:44 <Wensley> <-- terror :P
11:51:22 <dpeg_> Wensley: play hill orcs exclusively from now :)
11:51:46 <kilobyte> dpeg_: about the Beogh altar: 1. it counts Beoghites who didn't get 50 piety yet as enemies
11:51:52 <Wensley> that was actually how I first started crawl... HOPr was my specialty, and then HOCr :P
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11:52:56 <kilobyte> 2. it labels demigods as "holy"... they have divine ancestry, that's all, but whatever god they're related to is not sure to be holy (and they are not constrained by that, too)
11:54:04 <dpeg_> kilobyte: yes, but they get a warning. It is fair. If you want, we can give different warnings to non-orcs and to low-piety BEoghites.
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11:54:39 <kilobyte> well, what is the reason they should be treated worse than orc atheists?
11:55:23 <dpeg_> they shouldn't touch the gift of others, as long as they're so unimpressive
11:55:47 <kilobyte> let's give them a separate message then
11:55:54 <dpeg_> yes
11:56:06 <dpeg_> what are the BEogh religious titles?
11:56:21 <dpeg_> ONLY [TITLE at 50] MAY COME NEAR
11:56:40 <kilobyte> also, "the monsters attack" can be weird if half of them instantly turn to your side
11:57:57 <dpeg_> ah, my fault
11:58:03 <dpeg_> I added most of the orcs
11:58:18 <dpeg_> will a highpriest convert at 40 pietyß
11:58:50 <Eronarn> you can only convert any orcs at all at a certain piety level, but i forget what it is
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12:03:34 <kilobyte> titles <50 piety: "Apostate",           "Messenger",             "Proselytiser",
12:04:12 <kilobyte> 50 is a point the title changes, so it's doable without shifting the threshold
12:04:41 <kilobyte> >=50: "Priest", "Missionary", "Evangelist", "Apostle", "Messiah"
12:20:07 <CIA-51> 03MarvinPA * r48430d354de7 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-transloc.cc: Clean up the orb's cTele blocking so that it's correctly displayed as a status light
12:20:14 <CIA-51> 03hsolter * r3cec8b618f04 10/crawl-ref/source/ (output.cc status.cc): Show -cTele in status lights.
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12:24:50 <petete> i just used hibernation on a confused orc wizard
12:24:58 <Eronarn> sleepwalking
12:25:05 <petete> yes
12:32:06 <kilobyte> MarvinPA: is the orb supposed to block cTele when you have dropped it?
12:32:22 <MarvinPA> we were just discussing that a bit in crawl
12:32:29 <MarvinPA> ##crawl rather
12:32:46 <MarvinPA> was thinking that maybe it'd be a bit exploitable if you could drop the orb to get cTele back
12:34:00 <MarvinPA> especially in emergency situations where you'd rather leave the orb behind for a bit and cTele to survive a bad situation
12:34:08 <MarvinPA> but maybe even doing silly things like apporting the orb from staircase to staircase so you can controlled blink without dropping it if something nasty shows up
12:34:09 <kilobyte> the messages imply you can do that
12:34:23 <Eronarn> if you drop the orb and go out of LOS of it, maybe a bunch of monsters congregate around it :)
12:34:31 <MarvinPA> hmm
12:35:36 <MarvinPA> well the status light will remain, so at least it won't ever be unclear that you don't have cTele now
12:35:46 <MarvinPA> but possibly there's a neater solution
12:38:04 <kilobyte> that status light glaring into your eyes all the time on branch ends sucks a lot :(
12:41:17 <kilobyte> I don't think any other status light merely shows spoilers rather than something that is not constant
12:42:16 <kilobyte> especially that you get told these spoilers every time you enter the level
12:44:23 <dpeg_> family is back, bath, dinner, bedtime stories...
12:45:21 <dpeg_> kilobyte: it is a subjective matter, therefore: option
12:46:06 <monqy> Does it still require a spoiler to decode the spoilers? i.e. is the level entry message still the cryptic one about warping space?
12:52:48 <kilobyte> dpeg_: it's hard-coded to be always on.  Seems to be too small detail for adding a yet another option, I wonder if it could be taken together with other things: spammy spoilers.
12:53:14 <kilobyte> can't think of anything of that kind right now, though
13:06:07 <CIA-51> 03kilobyte * r48f2aa454c90 10/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc: Assert immediately when loading a save with an unknown monster.
13:06:17 <CIA-51> 03kilobyte * r026548fb0f68 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/traps/ (beogh_trap.des monster_doors.des): Whitespace fixes.
13:06:17 <CIA-51> 03kilobyte * r920f1da8231e 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/cards.txt: Add the missing description of the Orb card.
13:15:14 <kilobyte> what about s/book of Chemistry/book of Alchemy/ and s/book of Zoology/book of Beasts/?
13:18:55 <Eronarn> kilobyte: only issue i have with the former is the alchemy school proposal, but it can be renamed again if needed
13:20:43 <Pacra> <kilobyte> that status light glaring into your eyes all the time on branch ends sucks a lot :(
13:20:50 <Pacra> i am unsure what you're referring to
13:20:55 <Pacra> I feel I am missing something here
13:22:24 <MarvinPA> Pacra: <CIA-51> hsolter * r3cec8b618f04 /crawl-ref/source/ (output.cc status.cc): Show -cTele in status lights.
13:23:13 <MarvinPA> -cTele shows up along with haste, etc if you're in a place where it applies now
13:23:59 <MarvinPA> which i think is awesome, personally, especially for zigs and portal vaults
13:24:34 <MarvinPA> probably a good reminder for new/inexperienced players, too
13:25:29 <monqy> I might prefer if the level entry message was more clear and there was some way of checking it, but I guess a status light is okay too
13:25:59 <MarvinPA> it also shows up on the % screen
13:26:09 <monqy> oh that's nice
13:26:18 <MarvinPA> so i guess i could live without the status light and just have it there alone
13:26:33 <MarvinPA> but i'm not too strongly opinionated on it either way
13:27:56 <monqy> neither am i
13:29:18 <monqy> another nice thing about using a status light is it conveys more information to viewers
13:30:19 <MarvinPA> that is true!
13:31:43 <Pacra> <MarvinPA> which i think is awesome, personally, especially for zigs and portal vaults
13:31:57 <Pacra> yes this would prevent many deaths in teleport controlled baileys
13:32:06 <Pacra> (why are baileys teleport-controlled >:[  )
13:32:08 <CIA-51> 03kilobyte * r6555db822143 10/crawl-ref/ (7 files in 3 dirs): Add an option to suppress distracting messages that give static spoilers.
13:32:16 <kilobyte> added it, show_spammy_spoilers=false disables -cTele, (chaotic) and (mindless)
13:32:42 <kilobyte> defaults to true, of course
13:33:23 <kilobyte> the name might be bad, could you suggest an alternative if you think so?
13:34:54 <MarvinPA> chaotic/mindless should probably just be displayed on the monster description screen rather than when targetting them, really
13:36:25 <Pacra> can you do cTele and do a strikethrough with it?
13:36:52 <Pacra> one character less might save on valuable status-area real estate
13:37:10 <Pacra> with stuff like haste, fly, swift, etc. it gets packed
13:37:42 <monqy> do (terminals/the terminal library crawl uses) even support strikethrough
13:38:06 <CIA-51> 03dolorous * r23083b86f246 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/traps/beogh_trap.des: Typo fix.
13:38:22 <Pacra> i don't know :\
13:42:13 <kilobyte> Pacra: some do, for example libvte (gnome-terminal, terminator, osse-xterm, ...)
13:44:01 <kilobyte> xterm, rxvt and putty don't
13:44:24 <kilobyte> Windows console doesn't as well
13:44:34 <kilobyte> \e[9m
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14:08:01 <dpeg_> roderic has a cross-themed series of minivaults.... swastikas in all kinds and from all places -- what do we say?
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14:08:29 <bmh> hey
14:08:47 <bmh> I'd like to propose fixing my xom vault -- replace the real items with mimics.
14:10:50 <ghallberg> galehar: I realized an issue with my code. If you use the item (read a scroll, quaff a pot) it will bug out a little.
14:10:56 <dpeg_> bmh: hey, good idea
14:11:12 <ghallberg> galehar: No crash or anything but a nonsensical error message.
14:11:34 <bmh> I also think it's really unlikely that I'm going to be able to get the abyss nice enough for 0.9. I don't have enough free time to code at the moment
14:11:43 <kilobyte> bmh: :(
14:11:46 <dpeg_> bmh: :(
14:11:49 <monqy> :(
14:11:55 <bmh> ok ok-- what's my hard deadline?
14:11:57 <MarvinPA> hm, looks like the way signature weapons are handled actually prevents uniques from upgrading their weapon to a better one, even if it fits their signature weapon restrictions
14:12:13 <MarvinPA> so sigmund will never actually use finisher, even if he finds it :(
14:12:25 <dpeg_> bmh: two weeks. Perhaps a bit more.
14:13:05 <dpeg_> MarvinPA: that could be done better, indeed
14:13:23 <kilobyte> dpeg_: I'd say there's no need to ban this natural corridor scheme.  Even as a symbol, it was used for several tens of different meanings... and to get the one meaning you're probably thinking of, you'd have to rotate it 45 degrees.
14:13:24 <MarvinPA> i'm seeing if i can tweak it to let them upgrade as long as it's to a fitting weapon
14:13:44 <bmh> kilobyte: how do I serialize objects for saves?
14:13:44 <dpeg_> kilobyte: ok
14:14:54 <kilobyte> bmh: marshallItem()
14:15:52 <bmh> ok. I'll look into it
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14:18:51 <ghallberg> Are there any other items that dissapear on use like scrolls nad pots?
14:19:03 <dpeg_> decks
14:19:11 <dpeg_> food
14:19:37 <ghallberg> Mayb I should just check if item exists before trying to drop it. I'm not sure.
14:19:47 <ghallberg> I'm to hot to think >.<
14:29:15 <ghallberg> Ok, fixed food, pots, scrolls. Decks I dunno...
14:29:20 <ghallberg> That code is a mess.
14:30:08 <CIA-51> 03MarvinPA * r3370e70d0442 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Improve handling of monster signature weapons
14:30:26 <MarvinPA> hurrah, sigmund can upgrade his scythe :)
14:30:39 <Pacra> o god
14:31:25 <MarvinPA> now we just need a d:2 vault with finisher in it, clearly :P
14:31:26 <monqy> MarvinPA: looks like you've got a little dead code there
14:31:46 <MarvinPA> oh?
14:31:47 <monqy> MarvinPA: it aborts if the base type != OBJ_WEAPONS, and then checks if the base type is OBJ_STAVES later
14:31:51 <monqy> (for ddar)
14:31:56 <Pacra> This is sigmund. He is wielding a blackened scythe.
14:31:58 <MarvinPA> oh hm
14:32:22 <MarvinPA> the artificer thing did confuse me, yeah
14:34:10 <MarvinPA> i guess nothing else has a stave as a signature weapon... something might do in the future though?
14:34:53 <monqy> why is the !=OBJ_WEAPONS check even there anyway
14:35:22 <monqy> to avoid unnecessary work, assuming monsters can't have non-OBJ_WEAPONS signature weapons?
14:35:52 <kilobyte> what if he had a 1-in-1000 chance to get it?
14:37:19 <MarvinPA> monqy: yeah, i guess... seems fine to just remove it, i don't see why something shouldn't have an evoc stave as their signature weapon in the future (although probably monsters should actually be able to use evoc staves in that case)
14:37:43 <MarvinPA> (unless they already can, i dunno)
14:46:07 <CIA-51> 03MarvinPA * r74dad9940ef9 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Remove an unecessary signature weapon check (monqy)
14:46:49 <MarvinPA> thanks for pointing it out :)
14:47:08 <MarvinPA> also, yay for going through loads of old mantis issues
14:47:23 <MarvinPA> some of these are super ancient
14:49:30 <dpeg_> yes, that it always great to see
14:49:39 <dpeg_> I am trying to reduce Mantis load too.
14:51:09 <ghallberg> MarvinPA: Good time to fix small ld bugs now that we dont' have time for any big changes :)
14:51:14 <ghallberg> Before 09
14:52:24 <dpeg_> If I come up with a colour scheme for monsters tonight, can we use it?
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14:56:05 <nrook> dpeg_: hi!
14:56:05 <Henzell> nrook: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
14:59:58 <dpeg_> nrook!!!1!!!1!
15:00:19 <dpeg_> scrolls tonight? :)
15:00:29 <nrook> sorry I disappeared like that, I've been wrestling with a new computer
15:00:36 <dpeg_> who has won?
15:00:45 <nrook> me :)
15:01:05 <ghallberg> What are you doing with scrolls?
15:01:11 <nrook> it amazes me how little I actually knew about how the little bits fit together in there
15:01:35 <nrook> ghallberg: repricing them
15:01:43 <ghallberg> ah right :)
15:02:06 <dpeg_> nrook: if you send me the potions list, I can push it right now
15:02:13 * dpeg_ is in a pushy mood.
15:02:24 <dpeg_> Didn't bother to make a copy because I thought you'd be around next day :)
15:02:45 <nrook> sorry!
15:02:52 <nrook> still have the link: http://pastebin.com/QZBxv7wS
15:03:18 <nrook> I've got a scroll list up too if you'd like to see it, though I haven't done much of anything with it
15:04:54 <nrook> (here: http://pastebin.com/PU4QMcBj
15:05:01 <ghallberg> galehar: Added a new patch to the issue. Reeally small, mostly cosmetic.
15:05:12 <ghallberg> !tell galehar Added a new patch to the issue. Reeally small, mostly cosmetic.
15:05:13 <Henzell> ghallberg: OK, I'll let galehar know.
15:06:09 <dpeg_> nrook: yes, we need to start with the plain list of current scroll prices.
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15:10:11 <dpeg_> nrook: what about ?vorpal of same price as ?ew3; and bad scrolls like bad potions?
15:10:59 <bmh> How can I avoid breaking save compatibility when adding a new item to be marshalled? (the abyss state)
15:12:14 <nrook> dpeg_: you're looking at the list I just put up?
15:14:27 <kilobyte> bmh: you add a new minor version tag, and then compare versions to check if the save being loaded has that item or not
15:14:57 <dpeg_> nrook: yes!
15:15:18 <dpeg_> nrook: so both ?vorp and ?ew3 down at 150
15:16:56 <nrook> dpeg_: oh, ok! why do you think ?vorp should be cheaper? it's a very powerful effect
15:21:24 <dpeg_> nrook: (sorry, fighting with the serial vaults here) I think it is rarely bought. But that just means the price is not so terribly important.
15:21:43 <dpeg_> Good move to make blink more expensive. Do we need two tiers of bad scrolls like with potions?
15:22:12 <nrook> dpeg_: oh, I just didn't do anything with the curse scrolls because I have no clue what they're worth to ash worshippers
15:22:52 <nrook> if they're supposed to be a scarce resource, it makes sense to price them as a "good" scroll, even though they're bad for most
15:24:04 <kilobyte> you can convert one of most abundant scrolls into them
15:24:08 <nrook> I don't think having two real tiers of bad scrolls is necessary, simply because none of the bad scrolls are very bad
15:24:17 <dpeg_> nrook: there are two points: Prices for bad items like CurseFoo should increase a bit to make early price-id less trivial. And Ashenzarites will not complain too much about having to shell out 10 or 20 instead of 1.
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15:24:33 <dpeg_> nrook: yes, I agree
15:24:52 <dpeg_> it may occasionally matter a little in bazaars
15:24:58 <kilobyte> dpeg_: "price-id"?  What do you mean?
15:25:20 <dpeg_> kilobyte: buy 1 gold items to know them (!slowing, !poison, !curse foo, =-3protect etc.)
15:26:04 <dpeg_> This is the obvious thing to do (I've read this tip in ancient spoilers by Mark Mackey :), so we want to address that (only slightly)
15:27:08 <nrook> maybe put the curse scrolls at 20 (a bit cheaper than remove curse at 30), and everything else at 10
15:27:41 <nrook> perhaps even move fog back to 10 to make price-id harder, but I don't think that's necessary
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15:30:31 <kilobyte> it's not like Ashenzarites will buy the scrolls except for some very rare cases
15:31:11 <nrook> oh, ok
15:31:20 <nrook> may as well put them with all the other bad scrolls then
15:31:36 <dpeg_> kilobyte: oh, I buy my fair share of them
15:32:15 <elliptic> tes love to buy scrolls of curse *
15:32:59 <MarvinPA> i'd be tempted to move fog up a bit further than that, even
15:33:22 <MarvinPA> it's a pretty great lifesaver
15:36:42 <nrook> it is, but I'm not sure it compares favorably to ?tele
15:37:22 <ghallberg> nrook: It's instant, that's pretty huge.
15:37:22 <MarvinPA> well, fog can save your skin within two turns, quite often
15:37:28 <MarvinPA> which is faster than tele
15:37:58 <nrook> you'll generally need something else to help you along while you're fogged up, though
15:37:59 <dpeg_> I am fine with ?fog more expensive.
15:38:07 <dpeg_> nrook: sure, for example tele :)
15:38:17 <nrook> :)
15:38:43 <MarvinPA> it's definitely one of those consumables that often gets overlooked but is hugely helpful in certain circumstances, at least
15:39:32 <nrook> oh, yeah, it's definitely helpful
15:39:37 <kilobyte> it's too unreliable to have a decent chance of saving you
15:39:59 <nrook> it's just that, well, something has to be the worst escape scroll, and I think it's ?fog
15:40:05 <kilobyte> of course, if you don't have anything better...
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15:40:53 <nrook> the difference between 20 and 30 isn't very much, anyway, so it isn't that important---adjusting is fine if people want it
15:41:01 <kilobyte> useful against: 1. powerful ranged enemies if you backpedal, 2. sneaking in on oklobs
15:41:58 <kilobyte> it rarely puts up enough fog to block sight in any given direction, but if you add the fog in front and back of you (by running that way), it might work
15:42:16 <MarvinPA_> right, that's why i said it can save you in two turns, not one :P
15:42:25 <kilobyte> ok then :p
15:43:16 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
15:43:22 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA
15:43:38 <nrook> bumped ?curse prices up to 20: http://pastebin.com/PU4QMcBj
15:43:56 <nrook> summoning seems ridiculous at 95, but I don't know how much it's actually worth because I see it so rarely
15:44:32 <nrook> I guess someone on D:4 would find ?summoning for 95 a huge bargain
15:45:18 <kilobyte> strange that a "summon" is permanent
15:45:36 <nrook> it's a weird scroll in general
15:50:50 <dpeg_> I like it
15:51:06 <dpeg_> a pet abomination -- what could be nicer?
15:51:25 <monqy> would that "durable summon" thing work for it?
15:51:37 <Chousuke> heh, my current character has found three of those :/
15:51:38 <nrook> the flavor is cute, but I've never actually seen it at a time when it would be much use
15:51:51 <monqy> early game
15:51:52 <Chousuke> but I'm mostly just spamming imps at tougher things
15:52:54 <nrook> monqy: yeah, never seen one early
15:53:21 <nrook> I guess the price is fine, since later in the game nobody would buy an abomination for over 50 anyway, and early 50 is a ridiculous bargain
15:54:40 <Eronarn> abominations being summoned is kind of bad, did the issues with that ever get resolved
15:54:51 <Eronarn> it used to be that summoned abominations are demonic and created abominations are undead
15:55:47 <dpeg_> I guess the scroll does support brainless read-id'ers somewhat :)
15:56:18 <elliptic> brainless read-id'ers?
15:56:32 <MarvinPA> that's just about everyone :P
15:56:33 <monqy> scrolls are generally safe to use-identify
15:56:36 <elliptic> yeah
15:56:51 <monqy> especially if you know the tricks to maximise chances of getting identification
15:57:38 * dpeg_ is not.
15:58:07 <CIA-51> 03dpeg * r49424e3cd00e 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/entry/twisted.des: Repair dpeg_entry_connections, #3902.
15:58:13 <CIA-51> 03dpeg * r1cf0824c307e 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/ (9 files in 2 dirs): A flurry of cross minivaults (roderic), #4061.
15:58:54 <elliptic> I'm not really sure what the alternative is to read-IDing, unless you think somehow that drink-IDing is better
15:59:14 <dpeg_> nrook: I am fine with the scroll prices. Any objections?
15:59:37 <Eronarn> scroll of curse scrolls; it curses your scrolls so you can't remove curse if you read a curse scroll
15:59:55 <monqy> I hope that's a joke
16:00:04 <Eronarn> you have to find a scroll of remove curse scroll curse to remove the curse from a scroll of curse scrolls
16:00:38 <nrook> dpeg_: No objections.
16:00:51 <Eronarn> not to be confused with a scroll of curse skulls, of course
16:00:51 <MarvinPA> Eronarn: can scrolls of curse scroll curse scrolls of remove curse scroll curse?
16:01:22 <Pacra> approves
16:01:28 <MarvinPA> or do you need a scroll of curse scroll of remove curse scroll curse for that
16:01:34 <Eronarn> MarvinPA: no, you need a scroll of curse remove scroll curse curse for that
16:01:37 <MarvinPA> hahah
16:02:06 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:02:14 <dpeg_> it was too much for him
16:02:15 <dpeg_> :)
16:02:17 <MarvinPA> :D
16:02:29 <dpeg_> nrook: fine, though the question was more to the public
16:02:41 <dpeg_> I am going to change the potion and scroll prices now.
16:02:57 <MarvinPA> i wouldn't ever really buy ?fear at 45, i don't think
16:03:20 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev
16:03:25 <nrook> an objection!
16:03:35 <MarvinPA> although i'm not sure i would ever buy fear at all really... i never really use it, so possibly it's better than i recall
16:03:42 <Eronarn> fear is great early on
16:03:48 <Eronarn> but it's MR resisted
16:03:53 <Eronarn> and everything MR resisted gets worse as you play
16:04:04 <dpeg_> but it is the old price -- MarvinPA is well-known to be extremely stingy. He has been found dead in Lair, his last words being "won't ... buy ... fear"
16:04:12 <monqy> fear is pretty good in lair and orc I think?
16:04:12 <MarvinPA> haha
16:04:24 <Eronarn> (fr: scroll of vulnerability becomes scroll of magic resistance resistance)
16:04:44 <monqy> fear is also good for burning a turn when surrounded with nothing else to do
16:04:49 <monqy> and unsurrounding oneself
16:04:50 <MarvinPA> yeah, i guess someone who actually uses it more than me can give a better valuation of it :P
16:04:51 <nrook> recharging might need a second look when we do wands, but that can wait
16:04:59 <monqy> well I never use it either
16:05:01 <dpeg_> sure
16:05:03 <nrook> and, in fact, by definition must wait, so I'm not sure why I brought it up
16:05:17 <dpeg_> yes, recharging is a keeper, we will think of it
16:05:18 <monqy> actually I guess I use it rarely. pretty much never.
16:05:30 <dpeg_> I use fear and immolation.
16:05:34 <Eronarn> monqy: if you are a good player it will rarely if ever be the right choice
16:05:52 * dpeg_ is not a good player, here's the proof.
16:05:52 <MarvinPA> the list looks pretty good to me other than that, anyway
16:06:01 <monqy> immolation is stylish but I never use it.
16:06:10 <Eronarn> immolation is pretty terrible damage and it hurts you
16:06:11 <MarvinPA> i can see fear being reasonable to just get something to run away from you before anything dangerous actually happens
16:06:14 <dpeg_> This is not rocket science, we can increase the numbers any day, all day.
16:06:35 <nrook> Fear is nice early, gets worse, is probably fine anywhere from 30 to 50
16:06:45 <monqy> what Eronarn said. there's always something better than immolation or you're dead anyway.
16:06:46 <nrook> not like anyone's going to be buying it in bulk later!
16:07:07 <Eronarn> yeah, the only time i've ever used immolation is like... against an early ice beast where i knew i had to get it to run
16:07:12 * dpeg_ makes a mental note to clear an Ice Cave on immolation alone
16:07:18 <MarvinPA> monqy: surely immolation might be more efficient than your other options!
16:07:25 <monqy> MarvinPA: see: stylish
16:07:38 <nrook> of course it's efficient, all it uses is a worthless scroll nobody wants!
16:07:41 <MarvinPA> efficiency is more than just stylish :P
16:07:52 <monqy> speedrunning vs powergaming
16:08:02 <Chousuke> hmm, how about a scroll of antimagic :P
16:08:04 <dpeg_> I need some coding help: Nemelex should give no piety for useless items, regardless the value. Anyone can help me out?
16:09:08 <nrook> I can do it, though I have no special insight
16:09:39 <MarvinPA> i guess it'd need to use more than just the existing is_useless_item check, though?
16:09:51 <Eronarn> Chousuke: that'd actually be a good one, if it did the MP drain effect on you + the antimagic 'faltering' effect on all enemies in LOS
16:10:25 <Eronarn> it'd be a bad scroll most of the time but situational
16:11:02 <monqy> speaking of scrolls, has there been any talk of making silence more common?
16:11:03 <nrook> ("no special insight" here means "I know nothing about the sacrifice code, so it'll take me awhile")
16:11:42 <Chousuke> Eronarn: I guess it could be more useful for melee characters
16:12:04 <monqy> like how torment is more useful for undead
16:12:13 <Eronarn> Chousuke: which is fine, of course
16:12:16 <monqy> and holy word is more useful for living non-demonspawn
16:12:20 <monqy> (i.e. it's fine)
16:12:23 <galehar> yeah, silence frequency is a bit low: 1/1000.
16:12:23 <Henzell> galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
16:12:28 <galehar> !messages
16:12:28 <Henzell> (1/1) ghallberg said (1h 7m 15s ago): Added a new patch to the issue. Reeally small, mostly cosmetic.
16:12:29 <Chousuke> yeah, I can't get melee chars past XL10 or so :p
16:12:32 <monqy> oh and silence for non-casters
16:12:37 <Chousuke> spellcaster are much easier
16:12:38 <galehar> ghallberg: around?
16:12:40 <Chousuke> +s
16:12:42 <ghallberg> galehar: mm
16:12:51 <Eronarn> i think a really rare scroll of recitation might be cool
16:13:13 <Eronarn> zin's, compared to TSO's holy word
16:13:24 <galehar> your new patch is no good. If you pick several items and use them all, it will spam you. The no drop message should be out of the for loop.
16:13:39 <galehar> but don't bother, I'll fix it. It's trivial.
16:13:44 <ghallberg> ok, cool
16:13:51 <ghallberg> Thanks.
16:14:43 <galehar> well, actually it wouldn't spam, but you wouldn't drop other items.
16:15:15 <ghallberg> Oh right. I put a return in there?
16:15:21 <ghallberg> That was ust stupid.
16:15:23 <ghallberg> just*
16:15:31 <dpeg_> Eronarn: good idea.
16:15:42 <dpeg_> (recitation, not sure about antimagic)
16:15:42 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:16:19 <dpeg_> monqy: Several developers frown upon ?silence because it allows melee fighters to trivialise one threat.
16:16:49 <Eronarn> dpeg_: could have antimagic be: 'This scroll burns with the wrath of Trog as you read it!', flash screen red. for a bit more flavor
16:16:56 <Eronarn> like a trapped anti-wizard scroll
16:17:23 <dpeg_> I don't think that Trog's wrath should come in scroll form :)
16:17:38 <dpeg_> on a weapon, that is much better
16:18:06 <dpeg_> galehar: down to 6 vault items on Mantis (from 21)
16:18:08 <CIA-51> 03dpeg * r065b59a6036f 10/crawl-ref/source/shopping.cc: Price reform: potions.
16:18:19 <galehar> dpeg: you rock!
16:18:31 <galehar> I have never seen so many commits from you.
16:18:42 <galehar> Someone might believe you're actually a dev :P
16:18:56 <dpeg_> galehar: should've been faster: immediate commit is the best motivation for vault makers (or patchers etc)
16:19:12 <galehar> true
16:19:49 <dpeg_> galehar: the important number for me is how many of my ideas are in the game, not the commits :P
16:20:35 <galehar> I guess this number is pretty high...
16:21:14 <dpeg_> Do we want to increase ?EA from 48 to 55 (=EW2 price)?
16:21:41 <dpeg_> ?EA is weaker for casters, but stronger for meleeists now
16:23:36 <galehar> ghallberg: for simple message printing, you can use mpr instead of mprf.
16:24:59 <dpeg_> Heck, I just made all of ?amnesia, ?ew1/2, ?recharging, and ?ea cost the same, 55. We're with the shopkeepers, not with the cheapskates.
16:25:45 <nrook> or at least with those who like everything to be simpler :)
16:26:00 <evilmike> regardless of whether scrolls of silence are frowned upon, they are so rare that some players don't even know they exist
16:26:27 <dpeg_> Blinking from 30 to 55 -- will I get hatemail? But why should the best scroll in the game be cheap?
16:26:36 <evilmike> it would be a good idea to get rid of ?silence, if making them more common isn't an option
16:26:45 <dpeg_> evilmike: yes, HAran suggested that too
16:26:59 <monqy> I agree
16:27:00 <dpeg_> I don't really mind, we can replace it by another really rare scroll (e.g. Recital)
16:27:33 <nrook> blinking could even withstand being over 55, but small steps
16:28:11 <dpeg_> yes
16:28:54 <dpeg_> of course, players can buy the Crawl Premium edition, where ?blinking is only $5.
16:29:16 <MarvinPA> microtransactions!
16:29:59 <dpeg_> hm, what about letting players pay real cash in order to be able to sell to shops in game?
16:30:04 <MarvinPA> take inspiration from eve online and make it $50 to unlock extra customisation options for your tiles avatar :P
16:30:10 <MarvinPA> heh
16:30:24 <dpeg_> MarvinPA: I was worried this model already exists :)
16:30:43 <nrook> 25c allows players to respawn after death
16:30:57 <nrook> the only rule of Crawl Premium is that the game gets less fun when you pay real money!
16:31:10 <dpeg_> 25c ??? we have families, pools and mercedes benzes to look after
16:31:11 <galehar> dpeg_: life saving. Send me 50 bucks and I bring your 12 hours of gameplay char from the dead.
16:31:29 <dpeg_> galehar knows what he is talking about
16:31:41 <nrook> I have no ambition I'm afraid
16:31:57 <galehar> price of life saving should be scaled with XP.
16:33:14 <monqy> premium-only items
16:33:19 <monqy> amulet of lifesaving
16:33:22 <monqy> potion of full healing
16:33:30 <monqy> premium-only alchemy
16:33:51 <dpeg_> it'd be fun if I wouldn't know that other games do it like this, those slackers :)
16:34:07 <CIA-51> 03galehar * ra6a84bc4e505 10/crawl-ref/source/items.cc: Fix an issue with used items and Drop last.
16:35:02 <dpeg_> nrook: recap of what I have in shopping.cc right now: ?ew3 and ?vorp stay at 200; ?rech,?amnesia,?ea,?ew1/2,?blink all 55; ?fear 35; else as in your list
16:35:42 <nrook> alright, sounds fine
16:36:06 <nrook> no scrolls costing 27?
16:36:49 <dpeg_> the prices are modified anyway
16:36:55 <dpeg_> 27 is only useful when it is seen :)
16:36:57 <nrook> yeah, it'd be invisible :(
16:38:30 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev
16:38:55 <nrook> noo, a fate worse than death: I don't have .vim set up on this system yet
16:41:08 <ghallberg> scp it?
16:41:22 <kilobyte> ed is -----> that way
16:42:08 <CIA-51> 03dpeg * rf88fa49f5e89 10/crawl-ref/source/shopping.cc: Price reform: scrolls.
16:42:18 <Eronarn> import characters from other roguelikes
16:42:25 <dpeg_> What next?
16:42:59 <nrook> I'm going to dinner soon enough, so I don't think we should start anything now
16:43:07 <nrook> I suppose wands next makes sense
16:43:13 <dpeg_> fine
16:43:19 <dpeg_> won't be around tomorrow, and Monday will be busy
16:43:29 <dpeg_> but after that, I have some time
16:43:41 -!- galehar_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:43:53 <nrook> alright, I'll try to be on
16:44:28 <dpeg_> What's left to do: Wands (and charges -- and perhaps ?recharging again). Egos. Jewellery. Hm, if we stay at one class per week we'll be late :)
16:45:42 <nrook> or maybe we'll discover that egos are brilliantly and elegantly priced in a way that moves us on an emotional level
16:46:11 <galehar> happens to me all the time when reading crawl's source.
16:46:34 <galehar> especially all those files which start with mon-
16:47:07 <ghallberg> galehar: I got that feeling with decks.cc toda
16:47:11 <ghallberg> today
16:50:07 <dpeg_> galehar: I love it how players campaign for caster boosts immediately after the nerf.
16:51:55 <galehar> yeah, they complain endlessly about the caster bias and when we nerf them they cry. What did they expected? That we would buff melee? :P
16:52:30 <MarvinPA> also, everyone got extra hp! :P
16:52:49 <dpeg_> urghs, don't recall this one
16:53:01 <galehar> yeah, which is a bigger boost to casters than melee (proportionally).
16:53:09 <dpeg_> absolutely
16:53:11 <galehar> dpeg_: +3 base HP
16:53:18 <galehar> really, you don't remember?
16:53:29 -!- dpeg_ is now known as destructopeg
16:53:44 <kilobyte> galehar: the Fighting nerf also increased base hp by a lot
16:53:53 <MarvinPA> galehar: i think he means "don't remind me" :P
16:54:01 <destructopeg> Imbecile binge-drinking losers will now win Crawl the afternoon they pick it up.
16:54:09 <CIA-51> 03kilobyte * rd4a23d08ed34 10/crawl-ref/source/ (spl-cast.cc spl-damage.cc spl-damage.h): Don't lose a turn when cancelling an airstrike or striking an immune target.
16:54:09 <CIA-51> 03kilobyte * r5885b33cafdb 10/crawl-ref/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Allow placing pre-identified items, fully or partially, in vaults.
16:54:09 <CIA-51> 03kilobyte * rb4257fc26ae1 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/altar.des: Pre-identify cursedness of the Ashenzari gift.
16:54:09 <CIA-51> 03kilobyte * r961f644a9a35 10/crawl-ref/ (8 files in 4 dirs): Replace a hack in _is_affordable() with an explicit flag.
16:54:20 <CIA-51> 03kilobyte * rf791bcbe5b64 10/crawl-ref/source/l_dgnit.cc: Don't let troves ask for items from display vaults.
16:54:20 <CIA-51> 03kilobyte * r3fc1dcceaa20 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/levels/syntax.txt: Unindent a misleading paragraph in documentation.
16:54:20 <CIA-51> 03kilobyte * r9dfb38cb0af8 10/crawl-ref/source/items.cc: Remove a redundant check.
16:54:20 <CIA-51> 03kilobyte * r118b369afaff 10/crawl-ref/source/ (player.cc player.h tag-version.h tags.cc): Future-proof the save browser for species and god additions and removals.
16:54:37 <ghallberg> I will never win.
16:54:39 <destructopeg> kilobyte: <3
16:54:43 <ghallberg> I blame the cola.
16:54:50 <galehar> kilobyte: the base HP increased that went with the fighting nerf is past mid-game.
16:54:55 <destructopeg> ghallberg: perhaps with +300 HP ? :)
16:55:02 <ghallberg> destructopeg: Maybe :P
16:55:08 <ghallberg> Or in wizard mode >.<
16:55:36 <kilobyte> imbecile binge-drinking losers just back up their saves
16:55:37 <destructopeg> ghallberg: not sure on the imbecility, but you could improve on the binge part.
16:56:03 <ghallberg> Hmm yeah. I'll need to get back to where I was a year ago.
16:56:03 <kilobyte> does binge drinking tea count?
16:56:23 <ghallberg> And start playing instead of coding while drunk
16:56:30 <destructopeg> no, that is incommensurable with "loser"
16:56:42 <nrook> destructopeg: going now, will email you patch later tonight so sacrifices of junk don't become valuable
16:56:50 <destructopeg> nrook: awesome
16:57:03 <ghallberg> Ok I know this isn't ##crawl but give me an easy combo to try with :P
16:57:51 <kilobyte> that'd be a massive Nemelex nerf for some races
16:57:54 <MarvinPA> opwz!
16:57:54 <galehar> Try some new stuff: OcSk
16:58:19 <galehar> Op or Oc?
16:58:22 <ghallberg> Haha OCSk sounds like fun.
16:58:37 <MarvinPA> !ftw octopode
16:58:38 <Henzell> OP??
16:58:49 <MarvinPA> hm, henzell has the capitalisation wrong
16:58:50 <MarvinPA> but yeah
16:59:10 -!- nrook has left ##crawl-dev
16:59:30 <destructopeg> kilobyte: Nemelex can take it, don't worry
17:00:03 <galehar> well, nrook's patch is too keep status quo regarding Nemelex and current price changes.
17:00:19 <Pacra> i saw felids' level 1 health got reduced from 7 to 6 with the health changes
17:00:22 <galehar> it's not really a nerf, or I misunderstood.
17:00:23 <Pacra> one-hit wonder!
17:01:37 <kilobyte> it's not AD&D, where a level 1 human gets splattered over the walls by a housecat
17:02:13 <Pacra> <ghallberg> And start playing instead of coding while drunk
17:02:15 -!- destructopeg is now known as dpeg
17:02:29 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:02:41 <kilobyte> galehar: if I understand this right, dpeg means giving 0 value for sacrificing corpses as a spriggan or mummy, and so on (ie, useless items)
17:02:44 <Pacra> I do some code/design for a goon-y 2d roleplaying game
17:03:07 <Pacra> and one of our coders decided to come back from the pub and implement a new engine
17:03:13 <Pacra> the result:
17:03:23 <Pacra> [01:15]  Public.dmb - 6 errors, 1725 warnings (double-click on an error to jump to it)
17:03:30 <dpeg> kilobyte: ah no, that is much more than I asked for
17:03:30 <Henzell> dpeg: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them.
17:03:33 <galehar> kilobyte: no, the point is to give 0 piety to stuff that used to cost 1 and got their price boosted. We can't use is_useless_item for that
17:03:36 <Pacra> alcohol and coding don't go together
17:04:07 <bmh> Pacra: that's a lie.
17:04:08 <CIA-51> 03dpeg * redc52ecc808d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: Snake minivault (saegor), #3210.
17:04:17 <galehar> besides it wouldn't work at all since knowing evaporate makes bad potion not useless.
17:04:30 <Pacra> heh. a filthy lie!
17:04:52 <bmh> Pacra: one time I wrote some code and then couldn't find it in the morning.
17:05:13 <dpeg> Here at Crawl HQ we give the coders some wodka/whiskey depending on upbringing if they start complaining for too long.
17:06:32 <galehar> bmh: well, I believe you can code a morphing abyss while drinking. But try to make a vault with straight corridors...
17:06:48 <dpeg> hehe
17:07:07 * galehar goes get more wine
17:07:45 <ghallberg> Me and my classmates created a wierd MUD-like game when drunk.
17:07:57 <ghallberg> We have code&wine nights now and then.
17:08:18 <ghallberg> You code on whatever you need/feel like and then after a while it deterirates ino coding that MUD thing.
17:08:23 <Pacra> mmm, muds
17:08:29 <ghallberg> It's call "you have encountered a pack of wolves"
17:08:38 <ghallberg> aka yheapow!
17:08:45 <Pacra> some of the muds of yesteryear had some incredibly complex combat design
17:09:01 <Pacra> the achaea/aetolia crowd, for one
17:09:33 <bmh> galehar: I need to implement vault decay for the abyss
17:09:53 <dpeg> bmh: galehar is still in the cellar
17:09:57 <bmh> The idea will be to unmask the vault, blow away all of the items in it (that the player hasn't dropped)
17:10:09 <bmh> dpeg: what?
17:10:16 -!- bmh is now known as bmh_rum_k_thx
17:10:21 <dpeg> 00:07  * galehar goes get more wine
17:10:27 <galehar> I'm back
17:11:21 <galehar> bmh_rum_k_thx: I can't help for that at all. I know nothing about dungeon generation and vaults.
17:11:39 <galehar> what about map rot? Have you looked into it?
17:11:47 <bmh_rum_k_thx> galehar: nope.
17:11:51 <kilobyte> dpeg: about that vault: my fix deals with acquirement and troves, what is still left is shaft abuse and Ashenzari making you not pick up jewelry you find elsewhere
17:12:22 <kilobyte> I have an idea for the former but not the latter
17:13:12 <galehar> what's the problem with this vault and ash id? I haven't looked into it.
17:13:18 <dpeg> kilobyte: we need to distinguish between "seen" and "had a chance to pick up"
17:13:54 <dpeg> kilobyte: for example, what if you see a ring of cTele in a shop (but cannot afford it) -- Would an Asher still pick one up from the ground?
17:14:18 * bmh_rum_k_thx is away
17:14:22 <kilobyte> no, as it works based on identification and not having seen an item
17:15:04 <kilobyte> I mean yes, he would pick the item up
17:16:05 <kilobyte> the game assumes that once you have a chance to identify the item, all other copies are useless
17:16:29 <dpeg> can we set a flag that certain make an item not trigger this?
17:16:50 <kilobyte> shops don't let you learn what the item is unless you actually buy it, so for shops it's ok
17:17:21 <kilobyte> it's not stored per item but per item type
17:17:23 <dpeg> true
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17:18:07 <kilobyte> like, if you identify an amulet of faith, you don't need extras since in all other cases so far you could get the amulet
17:18:26 <kilobyte> no other vault with items on display can produce jewelry
17:18:55 <dpeg> kilobyte: the bit with Ash is not just about the Xom vault: you could see the amulet as loot in a vault but not able to get it -- the next amulet on the ground _is_ useful, but you wouldn't pick it up
17:19:23 <dpeg> it is because with Ash "known" and "touched" differ
17:20:26 <galehar> the proper fix is to make autopickup ignore item once you actually got it and identified it. instead of just the latter.
17:20:51 <dpeg> I think that sums it up nicely, yes.
17:21:48 <kilobyte> it would require not only a new way to storing this data, but also a new user interface
17:22:56 <kilobyte> dpeg: the thing is, there is not a single other vault that can show you a jewelry item that you can't get.  The worst case is requiring digging.
17:23:58 <galehar> kilobyte: but it can happen anywhere. You can see some stuff, Ash id it and you get shafted on the way to grab it.
17:24:10 <dpeg> I tried to give an example above.
17:24:31 <galehar> or some scary monster comes along and you have to flee
17:24:31 <dpeg> The vault is extreme because you cannot the ring _in principle_, but for id/pickup purposes, there's a whole range of scenarios.
17:25:12 <galehar> so we need to store "touched" items in a structure similar to type_ids
17:25:29 <galehar> what user interface is required? I don't think that's needed.
17:25:40 <dpeg> @?vampire bat
17:25:40 <Gretell> vampire bat (14b) | Speed: 30 | HD: 3 | Health: 6-15 | AC/EV: 1/14 | Damage: 313(drain) | Flags: evil, sense invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(4) | XP: 55.
17:26:12 <kilobyte> you need to let people choose what to auto pick up and what not
17:27:13 <kilobyte> dpeg: about vampire bats, is appearing in a single vault a reason good enough to forbid dark grey?
17:27:41 <kilobyte> (and for vampire players, but that's ok since it never goes out of LOS)
17:28:48 <dpeg> kilobyte: oh, they are darkgrey? I am suprised, I thought we have no darkgrey monsters anymore.
17:29:15 <ghallberg> dark blue is annoying imo
17:29:27 <galehar> kilobyte: hmm. it's been suggested to toggle autopickup from the \ screen. How is it related to the ash id problem?
17:29:49 <galehar> ghallberg: are you using windows console?
17:29:56 <ghallberg> galehar: nope
17:30:04 <ghallberg> maybe I can fix it on my end...
17:30:27 <galehar> putty also has a too dark blue by default
17:30:33 <ghallberg> mhm
17:30:53 <ghallberg> I'm on linux though, so I should be able to get a better blue.
17:30:59 <ghallberg> tomorrow.
17:31:21 <dpeg> We should one guarantee to not-use one of the two bad colours (darkgrey, darkblue)
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17:31:27 <dpeg> afaiu we opted to not use darkgrey
17:31:50 <kilobyte> darkgrey is used for like half of characters shown at any given time
17:32:24 <dpeg> for out of range -- that is okay
17:34:39 <galehar> I use both in the new skill menu (which I'm currently writting)
17:35:05 <dpeg> galehar: this is also not so bad
17:35:13 <galehar> blue is for boosted skills, dark blue for disabled boosted skills (that's already the case actually)
17:35:14 <dpeg> we used to have ancient lich on darkgrey, and that was a problem
17:35:41 <galehar> disabled skills have been dark grey since before I touched the skill menu
17:35:49 <ghallberg> I don't really have an issue with text in dark colors it's mostly stuff moving around on the screen.
17:35:57 <dpeg> yes
17:36:00 <galehar> oh ok
17:36:06 <galehar> good
17:36:06 <ghallberg> like iguanas.
17:36:17 <galehar> because I need a lot of colours for this damn menu.
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17:36:59 <kilobyte> there's only one terminal that can't show dark grey: Terminal.app on some versions of Mac
17:38:05 <kilobyte> (back in the day, there were others: console on ancient Red Hats, xterm on ancient PLD, possibly more.)
17:45:31 <dpeg> @?raven
17:45:31 <Gretell> raven (02b) | Speed: 20 | HD: 6 | Health: 25-41 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 8, 8 | Flags: sense invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(16) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 262.
17:46:38 <kilobyte> not sure about your monitor, but on all I have dark grey is a lot brighter than dark blue
17:48:32 <due> hm
17:48:35 <dpeg> kilobyte: the point was to have one unused colour (personally, I don'T care which), so that players can try
17:53:03 <Gretell> Silneus (L7 DEWz)  (D:5)
17:53:56 <kilobyte> !lm Silenus type=crash -log
17:53:57 <Sequell> No milestones for Silenus (type=crash).
17:55:49 <dpeg> what is the internal branch (you.branch()) for the dungeon?
17:56:13 <due> in Lua or C++?
17:57:19 <dpeg> lua
17:57:33 <due> should be D or Dungeon
17:57:36 <due> try the in-game interpreter?
17:57:46 <due> &^Tprint(you.branch())
17:57:49 <dpeg> ah, D
17:58:23 <dpeg> due: thanks!
18:01:14 <Ashenzari> Wrong tile for spectral war dog (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4207) by VictorGijsbers
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18:51:29 <Ashenzari> 4 entries (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4208) by Roderic
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19:00:37 <dpeg> Finally uploaded a bunch of maps... and some hours later I get more :)
19:00:48 <due> hah
19:00:51 <due> poor deepleg :(
19:01:22 <dpeg> no, I don't mean it like this
19:01:32 <Ashenzari> Repeated descriptions in 'R' in the game help (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4209) by Roderic
19:01:32 <dpeg> you throw them a bone, and they pick it up immediately
19:02:02 <dpeg> in other words: we should really try to incorporate new tiles/vaults/patches as quickly as possible
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19:23:41 <dpeg> Ha!
19:26:04 <nrook> I'm baaaaack!
19:26:09 <CIA-51> 03dpeg * r1bd0bdb2282c 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: Four monster minivaults (Roderic), #4063.
19:44:09 <CIA-51> 03dpeg * re06b6ea43a55 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/serial/bayou.des: New serial vault: bayou (coolio), #4065.
19:45:30 <dpeg> !tell Zaba Could you have test the new serial vault bayou? I wondered if we should restrict this to certain layout types -- what do you think?
19:45:30 <Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let Zaba know.
19:46:11 <dpeg> the last three remaining vault items are larger... not for now
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20:12:24 <dpeg> due: you know if we can re-colour monsters?
20:12:39 <due> yes
20:12:45 <due> via Lua, yes; via C++, yes.
20:12:56 <due> via the interface, yes, too!
20:13:27 <dpeg> found it!
20:17:12 <due> col:<colour> in definitions
20:17:15 <due> I'm not sure what in options
20:19:06 <dpeg> just wondered for a while why COLOUR won't work :)
20:22:56 <due> hehehe
20:23:00 <due> yeah, that only affects features
20:23:12 <due> colour of monsters has to be done in definition so it can be passed into the monster generation code
20:30:08 <CIA-51> 03dpeg * r84674adc002e 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/entry/ (large.des simple.des): Four more entry vaults (Roderic), #4208.
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22:42:09 <CIA-51> 03MarvinPA * r8c3441f236a9 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/entry/ (large.des twisted.des): Fix some entry vault issues
23:01:46 <stabwound> http://www.flickr.com/photos/41078995@N05/3786126066/
23:01:59 <stabwound> looks like someone took some "inspiration" from crawl :o
23:10:20 <st_> even has a place called "the abyss"