00:03:48 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.9-a1-788-gc378cea (32) 00:13:29 -!- ghallberg has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:13:45 -!- ghallberg has joined ##crawl-dev 00:18:25 -!- pld has joined ##crawl-dev 00:19:01 hello, does anyone have time for some basic "how do I get a working checkout" questions? 00:19:28 sure 00:19:37 does "git clone git://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl.git 00:19:39 not work? 00:20:00 I seem to be missing a lot from contrib/ 00:20:16 ah 00:20:18 I should note I'm trying to compile in xcode 00:20:21 git submodule update --init 00:20:24 but the missing contrib/ is the first thing 00:20:24 aha 00:20:31 finally, xcode is broken still, I believe 00:20:44 I saw on the mailing list 00:20:54 i haven't been a contributor since the svn days though 00:21:01 so... git. it's new! 00:21:31 it's shiny 00:21:37 mmmgit :D 00:22:18 The quickstart also mentions "git clone git@gitorious.org ..." 00:22:30 i was only able to get it to work with "git clone git://gitorioius.org ..." 00:23:04 does that syntax vary based on the git hosting provider? or do I need to set some gitorious stuff up first...? 00:23:24 the former is the ssh syntax; the latter is the git protocol syntax 00:23:25 you'd need an account on gitorious with a pubkey set up to use git@gitorious 00:23:31 as the former is trying to login via ssh. 00:23:42 I did create one and have a pub key that has worked its way through the system 00:23:58 do I need to use @gitorious.org? 00:24:18 or set up some ssh-agenty stuff? 00:24:47 i wasn't clear how git or ssh would know which private key to use 00:25:02 no, it's git@gitorious 00:25:07 i have a few files sitting around in my .ssh; i assume they need to be added or registered to a keyring somehow 00:25:21 but unless you have an ssh-agent running around, it'll only check ~/.ssh/id_rsa and id_Dsa etc 00:25:32 ahhh 00:25:44 does id_rsa just contain the concatenation of all the private keys I have? 00:26:15 no 00:26:32 i just seem to recall that ssh the client automatically checks there for privkeys 00:28:58 excellent -- ssh-add made it work. Thanks! 01:12:23 !tell galehar Added two pathc files to 'D' feel free to take a look when you get to it. They should work against latest trunk. 01:12:23 ghallberg: OK, I'll let galehar know. 01:12:33 And anyone else is free to try them aswell. 01:16:56 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:19:17 !tell galehar That's just a naive implementation though, still need to handle some more cases, like if you drop it in the normal way. Stacks aren't handled well yet either. 01:19:24 ghallberg: OK, I'll let galehar know. 01:31:55 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:35:32 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:57:39 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:00:21 03kilobyte * r8c03d89149b7 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-misc/icons/inner_flame.png: Actually add the png file for inner_flame icon. 02:01:19 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:02:08 oif, first nightly build, and first failure :p 02:02:23 kilobyte: :D 02:02:31 kilobyte: Try my patches! 02:02:32 :D 02:04:37 too early in the morning yet, I just fixed this failure 02:06:18 :P 02:06:41 I'm just excited to have stuff "working". 02:10:04 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:11:18 -!- st__ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:17:25 -!- Sabaki has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 02:23:53 -!- pld has left ##crawl-dev 02:27:00 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:34:24 moin moin 02:43:00 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 03:05:01 hi 03:05:01 galehar: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 03:05:07 !messages 03:05:07 (1/2) ghallberg said (1h 52m 44s ago): Added two pathc files to 'D' feel free to take a look when you get to it. They should work against latest trunk. 03:05:11 !messages 03:05:11 (1/1) ghallberg said (1h 45m 47s ago): That's just a naive implementation though, still need to handle some more cases, like if you drop it in the normal way. Stacks aren't handled well yet either. 03:06:18 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 03:32:01 kilobyte: I have auto-drop on my todo. I can tell you what I have in mind if you want to implement it. Or I can put an implementable, it's good stuff for patchers. 03:32:23 hi galehar, et al 03:32:35 hi due! 03:32:59 I've been thinking about your magnetisation spell. I like the idea. 03:33:06 :D! awesome. 03:42:35 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:52:08 I have wikified the AM proposal discussed the other day. 03:52:10 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:background:arcane_marksmen 03:58:50 If we bring them back, I'd like to make it archer. 03:59:11 <3 bringing it back 03:59:20 me too, I've always liked the idea 03:59:23 Also, arcane marksMEN is bad =) 03:59:28 Keskitalo: exactly 03:59:33 Arcane Archer ftw! 03:59:35 I even liked playying it! 03:59:43 Arcane Archer sounds good to me. 04:03:12 due: sure, add a naming section to the wiki page 04:04:42 due, archer sounds like limited to bows 04:06:43 Zaba: marskmen souds like limited to men and guns. 04:15:55 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 04:28:19 -!- varmin has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:31:30 Arcane Ranger? 04:31:31 -!- varmin has joined ##crawl-dev 04:31:34 Nvm... 04:31:47 if you go to "markspeople", "crossbowpeople", something is terrible wrong 04:32:24 hence why avoiding gendered terms is really much better. 04:32:53 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 04:33:11 like that "African American" who had Polynesian grandparents and is just on a vacation from Germany 04:33:23 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:34:24 Spell Shooter!' 04:34:27 Woo! 04:34:38 (I don't have any good ideas) 05:40:28 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 06:00:38 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:15:36 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 06:24:10 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:31:53 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 06:33:14 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:33:49 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 06:39:36 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 06:52:07 03galehar * r61f80282f103 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): Add a generic mons_has_ranged_attack() function and use it where appropriate. 06:52:17 03galehar * r0269c717b8d1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Rename mons_has_ranged_attack to mons_has_ranged_weapon. 06:52:17 03galehar * r54128e94d14c 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Add some monsters to mons_has_ranged_ability() (#3813). 06:52:40 -!- galehar_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:52:51 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:53:51 -!- petete has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:55:59 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:06:50 Sorcerous Sniper 07:10:05 the best word for an archer/crossbowwoman 07:10:09 is Toxophilite. 07:10:14 what the hell :P 07:10:56 tenebrous toxophilite 07:11:13 what a gorgeous phrase 07:11:25 I wonder if it's ever been juxtaposed like that in human history 07:13:22 juxwhat? 07:19:23 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:33:37 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 07:38:53 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:39:14 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 07:45:01 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 07:49:45 ghallberg: change the type of last_pickup to std::map (int is the quantity). 07:50:10 that way, you'll be able to handle dropping multiple objects 07:50:20 but it's a good start :) 07:50:50 galehar: Yeah I hacked it out last night while drinking wine and coke. 07:51:13 wine and coke? 07:51:13 I'll try to do some more tonight 07:51:16 * galehar puke 07:51:21 one glass for each :P 07:51:31 And after one another :D 07:51:38 Sounded pretty gross yeah... 07:52:13 we french take our wine very seriously! :) 07:53:19 I suck at wine :( 07:53:38 Just bought something cheapish at random. 07:53:47 You'll have to teach me ;) 07:53:50 jack and coke is only acceptable 07:53:53 yeah :) 07:54:06 bring the bottle to your mouth and then drink the liquid inside 07:54:24 ghallberg: so, you see what I mean by using a map? 07:57:46 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:01:19 Yep, absolutely. 08:01:30 good 08:01:33 also, on another note, is anyone annoyed by the new autoexplore behaviour (trying to view unreachable places)? I was considering to make it optional. 08:04:39 it seems fine to me 08:08:26 -!- petete has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:14:12 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 08:33:31 ah 08:33:42 i think "tenebrous toxophilite" is a hapax legomenon 08:35:01 T_T 08:35:38 my vocabulary is too primitive to make sense of all that :P 08:44:26 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:44:31 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:48:19 zaba: toxophilite comes from the greek: "lover of bows," used to denote archers in antiquity 08:48:28 tenebrous means dark, arcane, mysterious 08:48:44 hapax legomenon is also greek, meaning "something only ever said once" 08:49:17 -!- Adeon is now known as CardboardBox 08:49:21 and is used in a contemporaneously by linguists to denote words in literature that are only demonstrated once in a body of text. 08:49:41 ah 08:49:50 well, that clears it up somewhat :> 08:50:25 juxtaposed just means "put next to one another" 08:51:09 High Elf Tenebrous Toxopholite 08:51:52 A little hard on the tongue. 08:55:44 -!- CardboardBox is now known as Adeon 09:30:38 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:32:39 it's certainly not gameworthy 09:32:42 but it's fun to say! 09:45:09 If challenging! 10:00:53 Hi Eino! 10:03:04 gotta go 10:03:06 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: bye] 10:28:52 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:30:07 03dolorous * rff60c7c7d919 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Add formatting fixes. 10:34:48 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:35:38 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:40:21 -!- Adeon is now known as kerio_ 10:40:22 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 10:40:58 -!- kerio_ is now known as Adeon 10:49:28 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 10:52:34 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09:19 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:09:49 i think Spellsniper is the way to go 11:09:52 because LOSS 11:10:01 and MiSS 11:11:55 haha 11:11:56 agreed 11:25:03 * Eronarn would like it if new-AM were hexes primary and based around making people suffer 11:25:32 I actually like "spellsniper" :} 11:27:54 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 11:38:20 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:41:04 -!- bhaak is now known as unnethack_fanboy 11:41:26 -!- Adeon is now known as kerio 11:41:31 -!- kerio has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:41:56 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 11:42:13 -!- unnethack_fanboy is now known as bhaak 11:42:41 -!- Adeon has joined ##crawl-dev 11:52:23 i really don't like that AM book proposal :/ 12:08:35 I like your cause fear idea, it'd make it more usable and not have you lose the bags of xp for running away 12:12:35 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:32:06 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 12:40:25 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:47:42 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 12:50:10 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:50:14 Keskitalo: there are some other advantages, too - it gives an interesting buff spell to hex, and it's usable as an anti-summoner spell, and fixes the problems with monster cause fear making monsters run away 12:51:03 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:52:36 the scroll should work th same way but i'm not convinced we need a spell that replicates the scroll 12:55:45 i think a cool L1 spell for archer would be a Hex spell that makes an arrow that only attacks the mind 12:56:30 arrow that can be dodged and blocked as normal, but if it hits, it ignores AC and instead checks MR. instead of damage, it does a hex-y effect 12:57:22 that would be cool 12:57:23 another cool effect would be letting them get ranged stabs against normally stabbable things + afraid things 12:57:46 that'd be tricky not to make it op... what damage table are we talking about 12:58:17 maybe the same multiplier as spears? they do more than other weapons but not nearly as much as daggers 12:59:12 targeted cause fear would be another cool effect 12:59:23 tome has this - an ability called Radiant Fear 12:59:30 bbb 12:59:32 i don't think even spears 12:59:33 using it on things does not set them hostile, but makes them fear-inspiring to all npcs (allied or not) 12:59:51 since part of the difficulty of stabbing is creeping up on creatures to get the appreciable great damage 12:59:54 so you can use it on an NPC ally to make enemies flee from it, or on an enemy to make other enemies disperse from around it 13:00:33 Pacra: yeah, and also ranged has different damage calcs and such 13:00:48 part of the idea of this hexy AM book was to have hexes without stabbing 13:01:21 if we want to emphasize the illusory nature of hexes, that might be cool 13:01:38 for example: a phantom terrain spell that makes some impassable barrier to monsters 13:01:48 things that are mindless cannot perceive it 13:02:30 MR things resist, though it's very hard to resist as it's partially mind magic but partially illusion magic; every time they see something attack or move through it, they become more likely to resist 13:03:51 also hex-y and archer-y: pin something's shadow to the floor/wall with an arrow 13:04:42 Eronarn: I like the targeted fear effect, because the dispersing idea could potentially make you able pick a target that's in a crowd.. that'd be nice 13:04:50 (without portal projectile, he he) 13:07:04 Keskitalo: it could also be targeted at a spot, rather than on a specific creature... perhaps you summon some ghastly totem made of the skulls of those you've slain 13:07:33 or an illusion of some terrifying monster :) 13:08:56 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:09:03 counter-shot spell would be interesting 13:09:19 mirror image would be another hex-y spell if we wanted a buff in the book. i think we can do better than what rakshasa have: each cast summons a duplicate near you, and try to keep their distance from monsters while remaining in LOS of you, and firing arrows. if they get hit even once, they disappear 13:09:30 or if they leave your LOS 13:09:49 while active, if a monster attacks/shoots/bolts/breathes at you, some percentage(based on power) to shoot back at their position automatically 13:10:08 hit even once is a good tradeoff 13:10:29 do the mirrors fan out from you? 13:10:40 would, rather 13:11:03 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:11:16 Pacra: i think they should avoid each other, as well as you and other monsters 13:12:02 hm, with preference to you, or the monsters? 13:12:36 probably they should never appear adjacent to you, and move away from the closest thing if it won't move them closer to anything else 13:12:53 if you're firing arrows/bolts yourself, might be annoying to have them distance themselves from monsters on top of you 13:12:54 hmm 13:13:11 Pacra: well, they'd disappear if they left your LOS 13:13:13 what about blocking your own line-of-fire to said monsters 13:13:28 sounds tricky 13:13:55 Pacra: could make attacks through them dispel them, rather than actually block the shot 13:14:03 so you can fire, but you just lose that one 13:14:35 perhaps they should adopt a stance like those widgets from sidescrolling shooters (gradius, etc) 13:15:04 could also make them appear randomly over the duration within LOS radius, but only in open areas 13:15:13 and stay stationary and just fire 13:15:13 or you could just be able to shoot through the illusions. wouldn't be so bad since one hit poofs them! 13:15:26 stationary weak turrets 13:15:29 i like that 13:15:37 (caves of qud has that already) 13:15:46 if we wanted it to be a higher level spell, they could even do damage with their attacks 13:15:49 have you sampled the qud alpha, btw? 13:15:53 no, i don't run windows 13:16:21 could have sworn they had a *nix port 13:16:25 also, i really like the idea of a gradius spell :) 13:16:29 it's decent, even at early alpha 13:16:35 it'd be fun with like... summ/tmut? 13:16:53 summ/tmut sounds great 13:17:06 needs more interschool interaction 13:17:06 call it something like Blood Brother (not this, because gendered, but you get the idea) 13:17:18 you make a clone out of some portion of your own body 13:17:30 blood of my blood 13:17:38 (not that. awful game of thrones reference) 13:18:05 In bat form, autoexplore is "done" even when doors remain unexplored (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4196) by rriegs 13:18:26 hmm, what would the clone's attributes be 13:18:36 what percentage strength of your own would it have? 13:18:46 though, there are other options... like tloc-based, Paradox Twin 13:18:49 strength as in overall durability, hit+damage.. 13:19:01 Pacra: could do something like level drain the player a bunch and then make a ghost from that 13:19:28 maybe just a straight up percentage of health drain 13:20:17 sorry undead you can't cast this! no blood :] 13:21:09 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:21:34 doesn't caves of qud use .net? 13:21:37 yes 13:22:02 yeah, so porting to linux would be a real pain in the ass, if even possible 13:22:07 the guy had a disclaimer in the SA post about how it will probably never be ported to linux 13:22:21 it's very pretty. the effects in game add an entire other dimension to the ASCII 13:22:34 brogue also has very good visuals 13:22:49 being able to fade through colors changes a lot 13:22:54 yeah brogue uses libtcod doesn't it? 13:23:08 smoke from a fire actually wisping upwards on the screen, represented by ascii itself continuously 13:23:29 qud is definitely not resource efficient yet, though 13:23:32 it's a hog 13:23:53 and there are overworld bugs that can choke your system if you visit too many areas 13:24:54 I actually haven't tried brogue. 13:26:32 evilmike: much of .net works just fine on Linux 13:27:00 yeah, but back when i used linux i learned the hard way, that some stuff just doesn't like to work for whatever reason. that was a few years ago, but it probably isn't much better now 13:27:22 yep, that happens on every OS 13:30:12 luckily, caves of qud is one of the only roguelikes out there that is windows-only 14:18:47 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:35:12 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 14:43:35 -!- evilmike has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:59:27 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:37 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:16:38 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:17:02 -!- galehar_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:18:17 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:33:08 78291 (L27 DgAE) ASSERT(you.can_pass_through_feat(grd(p))) in 'player.cc' at line 393 failed. (Geh:7) 15:43:54 Blinking into a malign gateway portal causes a crash (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4197) by 78291 15:44:07 !lm n78291 type=crash 15:44:08 13. [2011-06-30] 78291 the Sorcerer (L27 DgAE) ASSERT(you.can pass through feat(grd(p))) in 'player.cc' at line 393 failed on turn 157720. (Geh:7) 15:44:13 !lm n78291 type=crash -log 15:44:14 13. 78291, XL27 DgAE, T:157720 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/78291/crash-78291-20110630-203303.txt 16:10:53 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 16:11:16 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:31 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 16:13:15 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:22 03galehar * rbbe46e6ab565 10/crawl-ref/ (7 files in 3 dirs): autoswitch renamed to auto_switch, cleaned up, simplified and documented. 17:02:32 03galehar * rc3a61be30e61 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-behv.cc: Fix ranged AI not handling properly spells with smite targetting. 17:02:33 03hsolter * r763509e13f2f 10/crawl-ref/ (6 files in 2 dirs): * Implementable: launcher/weapon autoswitching 17:02:53 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:11:56 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 17:12:00 yay to auto-switch! 17:14:23 Ash ego ID inconsistent for find/get menus (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4198) by rriegs 17:14:25 yay! 17:18:22 dpeg: about the price overhaul, don't forget that the 1 gold items will have to be special cased to not give piety to Nemelex. 17:18:23 thanks to ghallberg and galehar :) 17:18:38 galehar: yes, special code needed for that, I know 17:18:38 autoswitch isn't ghallberg's patch 17:18:45 ah, blammo -- who did it? 17:19:03 golgepapaz 17:19:07 ... 17:19:11 !seen nrook 17:19:11 I last saw nrook at Wed Jun 29 03:42:30 2011 UTC (1d 18h 36m 41s ago) quitting with message Quit: Lost terminal. 17:19:20 flaked already on mission 2 17:19:31 ghallberg is working on (D)rop last picked up. 17:19:41 while drinking wine and coke. 17:19:44 (savage) 17:19:46 hm, did a recent commit unidentify all items in transferred games? 17:20:03 since this seems to have happened to me (locally) 17:20:44 elliptic: I don't think so 17:22:37 can this sort of thing happen when moving from a debug build to a non-debug build, maybe? 17:25:17 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:25:21 -!- galehar_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:27:13 elliptic: I don't think I've ever tried that. But I don't know why it would. Let me test it. 17:28:08 03MarvinPA * r389492938682 10/crawl-ref/ (8 files in 3 dirs): Make HOPr always start with Beogh, remove god selection menus 17:28:18 03MarvinPA * r490df82196cc 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc: Clean up some starting equipment for Gl and Hu 17:28:18 03MarvinPA * rf9b079813f10 10/crawl-ref/source/acquire.cc: Don't acquire the book of Brands while AM is disabled 17:28:32 yay 17:29:36 How about better starting equipment for Fi? 17:30:38 we could give them +0 gauntlets or something I guess 17:30:55 I already buffed Fi and nerfed Gl recently though by adjusting their shield skills 17:31:17 yes true 17:31:28 but maybe they can use a little more 17:31:42 how about better weapons? war axe? 17:32:43 we could improve the Fi/Gl hand axe to war axe and short sword to sabre... not sure what to do with maces though 17:33:41 also not sure about starting war axe... war axes aren't that great, but you still aren't likely to find anything better for quite a long time unless you want to give up the shield 17:33:46 since broad axe is relatively rare 17:34:31 this is true of tridents already though 17:34:39 so I guess that's not a problem 17:35:30 yes, since we give them trident, we could give them the 2nd weapon in all categories 17:35:48 +3 hp, starting gear improved... the buff section of Crawl Trust is busy :P 17:36:15 hey, I've nerfed early casters! 17:36:24 with slower skill training 17:36:25 <3 galehar 17:38:10 dpeg: well, the point of buffing some starting weapons for Fi/Gl is that some are clearly better than others right now 17:38:28 compare trident or falchion with hand axe or mace or short sword 17:38:41 so, sabre, long sword, war axe, flail, trident 17:38:43 I think at the moment it is difficult to get a very balanced set though 17:39:18 this is something that can wait until we remove/tweak most of the maces and long blades 17:39:26 sure 17:40:01 elliptic: do you think Fi and Gl are about as good as each other with the shields skill change? 17:40:20 elliptic: yes, I am fine with that (more than with the +3 hp, which I fear is too much -- but we will see) 17:41:08 they might be about the same power level, but Fi is much narrower (basically no reason to go Fi unless you want to use heavy armour + shield) 17:41:26 elliptic: transfering a save from debug to non-debug did nothing with item identification. 17:41:40 hm, I wonder what happened then 17:43:01 &I maybe? :) 17:43:13 oh, there is a wizmode command that does that? 17:43:28 accidentally hitting that is probably what happened then, thanks :) 17:43:57 must have done that right before saving when I was last testing something, and only noticed on reloading now 17:44:50 galehar: by the way, what is the status of the tornado changes? are you doing them? should I? 17:45:26 I reverted the school change 17:45:40 kilobyte is implementing the radius change 17:46:28 hi 17:46:29 he also talked about increasing the duration while keeping the same total damage (so reducing damage per turn) 17:46:34 due: hi! 17:48:31 galehar: did you get any more feedback on magnetism? 17:48:47 magnetism is a good idea 17:48:50 nope 17:48:55 dpeg: <3! 17:49:35 due: do you see it in the AM book? Replacing corona? 17:49:43 galehar: definitely 17:49:45 btw, I believe we can rethink Repel Missiles in the way the new shroud spell works: can disable incoming projectiles, chances depends on damage (so loses usefulness over time), perhaps gets lost with too much damage 17:51:01 dpeg: someone (I think it was koboldlord) made an interesting suggestion on the forum. Instead of giving an EV boost, it gives AC boost, and only against physical projectiles (not beams). 17:51:26 surely AC boost doesn't fit repel missiles flavour though 17:51:38 due: maybe flesh it out. Pure hex? What level? 17:52:02 Well, a strange part of me would like to make it hex/earth 17:52:06 L1 Hex or Hex/Earth, IMO 17:52:08 elliptic: it can fit. Repel means push away. It slows down the arrows. 17:52:08 But that's possibly putting it in the realms of Stalker 17:52:23 L1 Hex/Earth, yeah. 17:52:29 galehar: I guess 17:52:43 Or a stretch, L2 Hex/Earth, but if it's the first spell people start with, it might help with the damage/mulching/etc. 17:53:04 if damage is reduced to 0, the arrow fall down on the cell before you (matrix style) :P 17:53:33 galehar: but that would not solve the problem (rMsl useful till the end) the way Shroud does! 17:53:34 another thing is that the distinction between physical projectiles and non-physical projectiles is a little fuzzy... 17:55:52 when in doubts, the spell doesn't work. 17:56:23 Whose idea was the Shroud spell? I was awed by the concept, we should really extend it to other buffs. 17:56:44 I see it as mainly against missiles. But stuff like iron shot should be affected. 17:57:10 dpeg: elliptic's idea and implementation :) 17:57:31 n78291 had the idea of it being charms/tloc 17:58:00 dpeg: what do you like about it? The fact that it is good early worthless later? 17:58:06 i really don't see the point in adding magnetism as pure hex with how similar it would be to corona 17:58:24 and hex/earth is still going to be similar to corona, with no progression/link to existing spells 17:58:26 I wanted to make a melee protection spell to complement rMsl, but I was having trouble coming up with decent flavour until he suggested the tloc part 17:58:36 eronarn: um, wasn't the idea to replace corona? 17:58:44 galehar: yes, because that solves the main issue we have with our buffs (easy to get, cheap, useful throughout) in a new and good manner 17:58:55 elliptic: in the book; i don't think it was supposed to replace corona for enchanters though, was it? 17:59:29 don't see any reason why enchanters couldn't use it 17:59:43 it isn't like corona is very important to enchanters anyway 18:00:24 they could use it if they find it, but we're leaving corona in their starting book, right? 18:00:30 galehar: the cheap spell simply fades out of usefulness, and you may or may not replace it with the more expensive upgrade 18:00:38 enchanter get corona, AM magnetism 18:00:59 dpeg: I should say that shroud is currently a bit more useful midgame than I had expected 18:01:02 galehar: see, i find that to be not a good idea - two L1 hex spells, or a hex/earth in a role that has nothing to do with earth 18:01:16 elliptic: I am talking about the concept -- the numbers can be tweaked 18:02:06 it should be easy to make a ranged Shroud equivalent that is a little but not very useful against yaktaurs, for example 18:02:09 well, I agree that earth doesn't really fit there. But as a pure hex it's fine. 18:02:12 it keeps its utility a lot longer against monsters with special melee attacks, since it just uses the physical damage (the force of the attack) to determine the chance of deflecting it 18:02:14 not really 18:02:19 it's basically the same thing as corona 18:02:37 do we really need two L1 hex spells with very minor differences 18:02:46 corona could be removed or changed to be more different 18:02:57 as I said, it isn't a very important spell to En 18:03:06 we can do whatever we want with it 18:03:06 replace corona with magnetism 18:03:15 personally i'd rather see us come up with a more interesting effect for magnetism than making it a corona clone and then trying to make corona more interesting 18:03:16 corona has use as anti-invis, but we can remove it and still have sunlight 18:03:33 right, corona already duplicates sunlight and TSO halo 18:03:47 TSO halo is different enough, I think 18:03:51 i wouldn't really say it 'duplicates' seeing as it predates both of those :P 18:03:52 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:04:07 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 18:04:09 dpeg: they all cause the same effect, though 18:04:25 dpeg: a rmsl which gives an AC boost only against physical missiles would be much narrower than the current version. Maybe still somewhat useful in late D (depending on numbers), but you'll really have to upgrade to Dmsl for zot and endgame stuff. 18:04:27 Sunlight is a god ability, though. 18:04:35 Corona for enchanters is at least useful for orc wizards, etc. 18:04:38 elliptic: yes, but halo effectively decreases stealth, is good for flavour 18:04:49 And halo doesn't affect to-hit any more, does it? While corona does? 18:04:53 right, halo is much more interesting :) 18:04:55 halo does 18:05:07 this is kind of besides the point, it is okay if there are multiple things that do the same effect as long as they feel different 18:05:28 halo effectively places a corona on everything in range except yourself, and nerfs your stealth 18:06:08 anyway all I'm saying is that we shouldn't feel like corona is an issue at all when considering magnetism 18:06:16 I don't think it should be 18:06:24 they're two completely different spell concepts and mechanisms 18:06:30 not really 18:06:31 galehar: I see what you mean but I think that going the shroud way is more attractive (broader) 18:06:34 the mechanics are not 'completely different' 18:06:55 Eronarn: magnetism as some similarities with corona, but also many differences: it has a stronger theme, it works only with ranged attacks, it gives a little damage buff, it is better against metal and armoured monsters. 18:06:57 they're both MR-resisted buffs to accuracy at level 1 in hexes chool 18:07:12 galehar: rMsl would still be always worth using anywhere with liches present if it blocked crystal spears and iron shots 18:08:13 the ranger wants magnetism, so the melee fighter should want corona -- what if corona increases chance for stabs or so? 18:08:14 galehar: it didn't only work on ranged last i heard, and why would it only work on ranged? that makes little sense 18:08:19 elliptic: it doesn't block them. Just an AC boost. As damage ramp up, the AC bonus gets less significant. 18:08:23 eronarn: I agree with you to some extent that corona and magnetism could feel too similar, but can we wait to worry about that until after we actually know the details of how magnetism will work? 18:08:42 in that case, shouldn't we dump either iron shot or LCS? 18:08:55 seeing as they're both ranged projectile conjurations and their only difference is spell level :p 18:08:59 elliptic: i am basing this on the proposal that i have heard, obviously if the details change from then my comments may not be relevant 18:09:26 due: there is certainly something to be said that stone arrow -> iron shot -> LCS could use some variation, yes 18:09:49 like making one of them fire many weaker projectiles, or iron shot nailing people to walls, or etc. 18:10:13 well, yes 18:10:40 but my point was that similarity in effect or mechanism isn't necessarily a bad thing. i am incapable of properly expressing myself, today. 18:11:03 dpeg: corona increasing chance for stabs could be nice for distraction stabs i guess though i'm not sure how relevant that would end up being / whether enchanter needs that (it doesn't) 18:11:05 anyway, similiarities aside: L1 Hex/Earth, increases to-hit and to-dam, but by how much? <-- that is the question? 18:11:37 due: right, i am fine with similarities in effect/mechansim... i just think this specific case is too similar 18:12:00 if it were tmut/earth and changed someone's gear into a magnet then at least it would have different schools from corona 18:12:39 also still the issue that right now the AM proposal has no earth component at all 18:13:13 due: let's see, how large is corona's to-hit bonus 18:13:59 eronarn: so? lots of starting books have spell schools that only appear in one spell 18:14:08 What is more important: new implementables, or committing vaults? 18:14:11 that's not an issue at all 18:15:04 elliptic: it's not a major issue, but it should be a consideration - books should point the character in a certain direction, creating a cohesive feel is important, having progression from the starting book is valuable, etc. 18:15:27 what we really need is comprehensive book descriptions. 18:16:10 are you serious? 18:16:11 corona seems to give a 2+random2(8) to-hit boost 18:16:18 dpeg: vaults. We have many implementables in the pipe, thanks to you! 18:16:21 bhaak: yes! 18:16:28 galehar: ok, at your service 18:16:41 and I'll add one more, so you can focus on vaults :) 18:16:42 nobody reads texts! 18:16:44 vintermann wrote to me that the he cannot code the food reform, so that will be another one 18:16:52 due: that except for spell schools :) 18:17:02 bhaak: only b/c the typical NH player is illiterate! 18:17:08 bhaak: deadly 18:17:19 bhaak: nothing infuriates me more than "It's a book of magical spells". 18:17:36 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 18:17:37 Should slip in some "It's a book of surprisingly unmagical spells." 18:17:40 Wensley: Hi 18:17:45 hello dpeg! 18:17:49 coming up with a theme for the AM book before we start putting spells in it would be nice 18:18:06 dpeg: yeah, we need time anyway to polish the idea. 0.9 has a very short timeframe. 18:18:13 you crawlians are mad! 18:18:27 eronarn: we already put spells in it 18:18:29 you missed that part 18:18:37 elliptic: i commented on the wiki page, tyvm 18:19:00 also i was around back when AMs were originally added :P 18:19:00 galehar: yes, food reform is not for 0.9 obviously 18:19:07 hmm, I wonder if anyone reads item descriptions in AceHack? 18:19:13 * dpeg sheds a tear for blue_anna 18:19:21 (for that matter, I wonder if anyone reads item descriptions in Crawl?) 18:19:33 * dpeg retracts that tear and sheds another one for cryo 18:19:36 the theme is ranged with hex help 18:19:48 that's not a theme 18:19:52 that's an archetype 18:19:52 ais523: answer is obviously yes. The correct question is "how many". 18:19:54 no, it's not 18:19:57 okay, that's the idea for AM 18:19:59 dpeg: heh 18:20:01 can we be hideously bad 18:20:02 it isn't a book title 18:20:03 ais523: hardly, the usability report proved that players don't even read stuff that's important! 18:20:04 would you like that 18:20:11 Ace has sufficiently few players that it's possible that none of them but me check descriptions 18:20:18 what's the formula for ranged combat? 18:20:19 actually, I know rawrmage did, because he reported a bug in it 18:20:24 themes that i think would work for AM: illusions, misdirection, pain, darkness, hindering 18:20:51 Eronarn: I like all of these -- though specifically illusion, misdirection, darkness and hindering -- not adding pain. 18:21:01 due: if it makes sense i don't mean magical pain 18:21:05 ah 18:21:05 i mean 'shoot you with a barbed arrow' pain 18:21:09 right 18:21:19 to me, an AM should get spells that do what a nonmagical archer would really want 18:21:34 things that help them stay at range, and avoid running out of ammo 18:21:35 does anyone know the formula for RC based of STR/DEX/etc? 18:21:37 eronarn: hindering is the way things are currently looking 18:21:40 I can never exactly remember it. 18:21:41 there were 2 events in my life that left me completely flabbergasted: 1. somebody noticed the random creator god in the story plot text when starting unnethack, 2. m&m's DO melt in your hands 18:21:48 due: it is really ugly :( and in item_use.cc 18:22:01 bhaak: I haven't started Un enough to notice that 18:22:15 mostly I just steal patches from you, rather than actually play your game 18:22:18 elliptic: okay... so maybe they don't need a L1 accuracy boost. what if we give them the shadow pin effect i suggested earlier, instead of slow? 18:22:26 they fire an arrow into someone's shadow, pinning them to the spot 18:22:32 though they can still act normally 18:22:42 ah, the immobilisation effect. How long would it last? 18:22:46 why don't they need magnetism? 18:22:58 the whole point of the spell was to make the early gameplay better 18:23:13 elliptic: i'm not saying that they don't need it, i'm saying that if that is the theme they are going for that magnetism stands out (as does corona) 18:23:25 since neither actually hinders the opponent 18:23:26 hindering their ability to dodge and protect themselves from arrows 18:23:52 we don't need "book of 6 ways of making enemies stop moving" 18:24:08 isn't there a Book of Hinderance? 18:24:30 no, but i think that making that their L1 spell would set the tone for the book pretty well 18:24:50 magnetism could also make them fumble attacks if they're weilding a metal w2eapon 18:25:02 portal projectile is a reasonably obvious fit for an AM book 18:25:10 unless you're getting rid of the spell altogether 18:25:13 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 18:25:21 due: even disarm by tugging the weapon out of their hands 18:25:23 really, what an AM book should help is archery 18:25:32 ais523: not necessarily true 18:25:41 it doesn't have to directly help your shots at all 18:25:47 indeed, it doesn't have to be direct 18:25:57 but the spells should aid archers somehow; ideally, things that help you stay at range 18:26:01 immobilise effect is good for that reason 18:26:14 Pokémon Mystery Dungeon has both that, and an immobilise+slow effect 18:26:28 but neither works at range, except from escape items 18:26:54 my suggestions for spells from earlier were: spell to pin someone to the ground by shooting their shadow; spell that makes illusory terrain that creatures with minds can't walk into; mirror image that makes clones of you that shoot arrows to distract and pull enemies towards them; cause fear change to make it repulse enemies 18:27:21 due: basically all of the damage calculations for ranged combat are in throw_it() 18:27:41 not that i think the book should be just that, but i think those would all be good AM fits 18:28:12 eronarn: we aren't trying to create a new book of your favorite spell ideas... we are trying to exploit the fact that various new or currently underused hexes synergize well, both with each other and with ranged combat 18:29:20 elliptic: that's odd because it looked to me like taking a bunch of junk spells nobody uses and sticking them in a book and hoping it works 18:29:52 eronarn: "junk spells nobody uses" <- isn't this a problem worth dealing with? 18:30:30 sure but that's a separate issue from designing new roles 18:30:55 not really... some spells just aren't used because the archetype who would use them doesn't exist because of starting roles 18:31:00 I believe we should be pragmatic: we can probably set up an interesting starting spellbook right now, and if it is diverse from the others, it shouldn't be hard to put the flavour on top of it. 18:31:00 when i look at the proposed book it doesn't at all make me excited by the idea of playing an AM because they're just enchanters with a bow and several worse spells 18:31:12 eronarn: then don't play them 18:31:15 problem solved 18:31:28 also how are they anything like an enchanter 18:32:03 none of the mentioned spells have any use for stabbing except for mass confusion (which is an iffy include anyway) 18:32:25 yes, they're enchanters who don't stab 18:33:09 Dexterity doesn't seem to have any impact on launchers. 18:33:28 due: no, it does 18:33:31 oh, it does? 18:33:34 through the strength weighting 18:33:35 it should affect accuracy of launchers, maybe damage too, to make sense 18:33:37 Then I think we could steal a D&D spell 18:33:41 using int instead of dex. 18:33:49 dpeg: i disagree with this idea of designing roles... if you look at what roles people are enthusiastic about it's largely ones with spells that help strongly define them and nobody else gets at start, like EH or evap (pre-stalker) or dispel (pre-kiku) 18:33:53 that's a feat, not a spell, isn't it? 18:34:03 ais523: Well, yeah, but we could make it into a spell. 18:34:06 yep 18:34:36 (it would have to be a spell if we wanted to use it, of course; "classes don't affect your abilities, etc) 18:34:41 due: I think dex might only affect launcher speed actually, not damage 18:34:50 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 18:34:51 if we just give AM what's left over from not being in too many starting books already we lose the chance to make an AM that's actually got a distinct/interesting spellbook 18:35:16 the only thing on there that might fit that niche right now is inner flame + enslave combo and that really doesn't feel archer-y at all 18:35:34 The old AM concept was conceived mainly from a flavour pov, as I see it. And it didn't work out too well. We know what we want: someone who is worse at ranged attacks than a ranger but uses some appropriate spells to get over that -- what is not to like? It's all the flavour I need to get going. 18:36:01 are there any pure-archery classes in Crawl yet? 18:36:03 dpeg: I agree 18:36:10 the old AM was bad because the mechanical concept of it was just awful 18:36:19 and then that got gutted, and what was left wasn't worth keeping as a role 18:36:23 the old AM was bad because the chosen mechanic of "you can brand your missiles!" just... didn't work. 18:36:38 and the reason it didn't work was, because it just made you run out of missiles faster, and you had no viable alternatives 18:36:45 exactly. 18:36:47 due: well, that could've been interesting when there was stuff like explosion or shocking brand spells 18:36:52 but those were also broken as heck 18:36:54 I remember playtesting old AM quite a bit, you hardly got anywhere 18:36:56 Eronarn: but... well, yeah 18:37:01 ais523: yeah. 18:37:17 it didn't make you run out of missiles faster, at least not once it was changed to branding a launcher rather than the arrows 18:37:28 the problem with the first AM was balance, the problem with the second AM was that it just tried to cobble together a spellbook after the new/cool stuff from the first AM was removed 18:37:33 base mulching rates are always problematic 18:37:53 Eronarn: well, I had very little time to work with and a release coming up, so it was better than just deleting it all; not that I disagree with its final deletion 18:38:00 the problem was partly that flame and frost brands were bugged to be useless on launchers, and partly that the book didn't have anything of use other than the brands 18:38:13 due: i was around when it happened, i'm the one who suggested cause fear for the book :P and it was a good effort, but there just wasn't enough to work with 18:38:43 elliptic: well, indirectly it does, as AM has no melee option to speak of earlygame 18:38:55 and you run out of missiles if you go pure-archery in Crawl, and branding them doesn't do much to change that 18:39:24 the brand spells were also a problem with AM because people were using them to brand their melee weapons 18:39:31 hm 18:39:32 moreso than they were using them to brand ranged 18:39:40 because AM is otherwise bad at melee 18:39:41 which says that the role wasn't actually supportive of being an archer enough 18:39:44 eronarn: that was because 2/3 of them were bugged to be useless for ranged 18:39:47 hmm ... so, a spell that makes missiles less likely to mulch? 18:39:48 here's a completely crazy idea. 18:39:54 people used poison weapon on launchers fine 18:40:04 also, why is first AM relevant now? 18:40:08 yes 18:40:21 because we should learn from mistakes :P 18:40:29 anyway, i've a totally crazy idea that can possibly be useless: a spell that lets you use one arrow as though it were three, but mulches it immediately/increases the mulch rate. 18:40:42 due: like, fire three arrows at once? 18:40:55 mumra: no, not a good idea 18:40:57 due: hm, firing three arrows at once, you mean? would it take more time to do this? 18:41:01 mumra: btw, just playing your spider map 18:41:16 ok 18:41:24 elliptic: i'm not sure. 18:41:24 elliptic: i think it would be broken even with that, since you could abuse corners and such 18:41:38 it could either be three arrows at once or it appears as though you have three "magic" arrows in your quiver. 18:41:41 eronarn: what do corners have to do with anything 18:41:50 mumra: not useful b/c it reduces the decision whether to enchant ammo, and could become an annoying nobrainer 18:42:08 due: I'm not sure how to flavour that as a hex, though... 18:42:17 due: a spell to triple damage? That doesn't sound very balanced... 18:42:22 galehar: well, exactly. 18:42:23 dpeg: yeah i realised it was useless as soon as i'd pressed enter 18:42:47 it could be balanced in various ways, like the arrows could do lower damage 18:43:05 i'm not sure we really want flurry effects though 18:43:31 a spell where you shoot in several directions at once? 18:43:33 "Quantum Arrow" -- the arrow is everywhere at once, and thus always hits its target -- but is always mulched. 18:43:36 there could be a bone/flesh arrow spell, that costs you some HP to make a stack of temporary arrows. or you could use it over a corpse to explode its bones into arrow shapes, or something 18:43:51 Wensley: now that is creepy and cool but unfortunately scummy 18:43:55 I have to say that I really like the tension based speech of the singing sword 18:44:18 !tell dpeg Singschwertschadenzahlen an Adam schicken! 18:44:18 dpeg: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 18:44:48 due: one thought i had was their L1 spell could be an arrow formed of shadows that penetrates armor flawlessly, but only hurts the mind 18:44:49 dpeg: there should be a fixedart that speaks to you in conversational german 18:44:57 you can miss, or they can dodge 18:45:02 but if it hits, it checks MR instead of AC 18:45:16 and rather than damage, it does a status effect of some kind 18:45:30 this is hex-y, archer-y, and lets them use their bow even if they have ammo issues 18:45:39 Wensley: hm, instead of actually creating and picking up the arrows, what about standing on the corpse (or having it in inventory), casting the spell and bone arrows go off in all directions at once? 18:45:39 dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 18:45:52 dpeg: that sounds more in line with a hex spell, yes 18:46:11 the problem is it doesn't really use your ability to shoot arrows at all 18:46:16 Wensley: Exzellenz, ich glaube Euer Ehren haben eine Schraube locker. 18:46:52 straight-up illusory arrows would be another possibility 18:47:02 but then we're in plain Con territory 18:47:04 normal +0 arrows, except they're MR-resisted too, and a low power cap 18:47:31 makes AM better (unlimited ammo) against the weak-minded, worse against anything with strong will 18:47:49 Eronarn: i like illusory arrows. 18:47:50 (since they don't have the starting ammo of hunters) 18:47:56 actually, i really like the shadow arrow "hurts the mind". 18:48:03 due: did you hear the mirror image suggestion? 18:48:07 it doesn't feel at all like a "conjured arrow". 18:48:34 illusory arrows or shadow arrows don't help with the problem of killing anything with AC early on 18:48:47 unless you want people to use one of those to disable a monster and then stab it 18:48:57 which is getting much more like En again 18:49:17 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: zzz] 18:50:22 i thought the shadow arrow passed through AC, but relied on MR to do actual damage -- and your own to-hit for it to actually hit? 18:50:40 well, eronarn was saying that it wouldn't do damage 18:50:50 instead cause a status effect of some kind 18:50:53 due: my initial idea was that it did no damage, and only caused a status effect, but i suppose damage isn't out of the question (though it might need to be higher level or something) 18:51:46 i think damage would be fine 18:51:47 I'm also not sure "spells that let AM use archery without using arrows" is a good idea... too much like conjurations 18:51:53 if we really wanted the role to feel different: it could start with *no* arrows, and only spells that use the bow 18:52:06 elliptic: yes, same here 18:52:08 i think that's a bit too much of a stretch 18:52:24 elliptic, dpeg: I don't think it checking MR before damaging feels too much like a conjuration; there's no penetration, etc. 18:52:24 mumra: your map is very good! 18:52:41 due: in that case it feels like Pain 18:52:47 still not like archery 18:52:51 unless you can spam it to kill stuff it's going to feel nothing like a conjuration 18:52:51 due: as I see it, the point of ranged attacks is that you shoot an actual item. I would like to keep that by all means. 18:53:02 dpeg: thanks! is that the final smaller version i posted ? 18:53:07 eys 18:53:19 dpeg: well, it can be made to still consume an arrow (as a spell component) 18:53:24 mumra: good size, good threat, bad loot (in harmony with all other spider maps :) 18:53:33 do you actually have a problem with the idea of a spell that functions using an arrow as a conduit? 18:53:43 mumra: I may randomise some more, and there can be little sections of the map cut off -- not sure I'll do something about that 18:54:03 I am fine with arrows transforming in flight etc., but I think an item should be involved, yes 18:54:08 if it is turning an arrow into a shadow arrow, that could be okay, yes 18:54:11 dpeg: why? 18:54:16 lol :) the whole map should be guaranteed accessible. there's a continous route of floor / shallow water. 18:54:24 except for some of the places where spiders hide 18:54:25 dpeg: but yes, it could consume some kind of ranged ammunition. 18:54:31 which you'd need lev to get the items 18:54:34 dpeg: this means that it's worth it to collect sling bullets or crossbow bolts. 18:54:34 mumra: there can be some small areas at the border 18:54:50 or better yet, a spell that lets you use bolts as arrows and vice versa. 18:54:53 due: sure, as it is for a ranger 18:54:57 due: don't like that at all :( 18:54:58 due: not sure about that 18:55:10 i am just throwing out every idea that comes into my head without judging :) 18:55:13 As an AM, it should matter a lot what ranged skill you're good in 18:55:15 but yes, i don't know about that either. 18:55:28 dpeg: yeah they're just for spiders to come out of, altho if you have cling or lev you can go in them for a small number of items 18:55:44 mumra: the usual worry is that someone gets stuck there 18:55:58 well, "transform ammunition" temporarily transmutes something into ammunition that fits your launcher; ergo, it still matters a lot what ranged skill you're good in. 18:56:21 due: actually, for that, i would transmute something else: gold 18:56:32 Reverse Alchemy spell (tm) 18:56:43 -!- syllogism has quit [] 18:56:50 gold into lead sling bullets? :) 18:56:58 plus energy, which is the damage, yes 18:57:10 or maybe just sling bullets, maybe better 18:57:20 anyways, making 'free' arrows doesn't seem to fit hexes or AM 18:57:35 yeah. 18:57:36 so certainly either any magic arrows should require ammo, or not be the same as normal arrows 18:57:40 dpeg: what about having no-ctele-into to prevent accidents? 18:58:27 or, putting a potion of levitation in some/all of them 18:58:30 for example: the pin-someone's-shadow spell isn't dealing damage, just pinning, so it would feel quite different from attacking with a bow or from uos it'd be okay to not require aing conj 18:58:35 even if it took no arrow and just MP 18:58:38 mumra: yes, no-rtele will do it. Did you count monsters from other spider maps? 18:59:12 Eronarn: yes, there can be spells befitting AM that do not use items 18:59:18 dpeg: do you mean total number of monsters? 18:59:33 cast Corona to create shadow, cast Pin Shadow to nail monster, shoot 18:59:37 mumra: yes 18:59:40 why would the pin shadow spell not require an arrow? just because arrows are scarce? 18:59:57 Wensley: it'd be pretty rough as L1 spell with requiring an arrow 19:00:04 Wensley: part of the issue that we're discussing is how arrows are extremely valuable and extremely scarce in the early game. 19:00:08 also, issues with - where does the arrow go once they're pinned? what about mulching? 19:00:10 it wouldn't solve the gameplay problems with AM as a L1 spell anyway 19:00:30 elliptic: if you think of it as a L1 slow i think that would be a fine AM spell 19:00:52 dpeg: didn't count, but i'm pretty sure this has quite a few more. i did the monster placement quite quickly, i was going to look at it and maybe reduce the overall amount of them, but create more strategic swarm points 19:01:24 eronarn: early-game problems with AM are that it takes far too many arrows to kill anything, especially anything with AC 19:01:29 * dpeg wonders if we should disable all teleports (but not blink) on small maps 19:01:32 slowing something doesn't address this 19:01:57 elliptic: hence why magnetism with a slight to-dam increase would help against high-AC monsters? 19:02:00 elliptic: to kill anything with shooting it with arrows, sure 19:02:02 due: yes 19:02:04 actually 19:02:19 how about a chain-arrow spell, where you cast it on an enemy and then when you hit them with an arrow that arrow bounces to other enemies. could help to conserve ammo, although it's a little clunky 19:02:20 I'm fine with using "Shadow Arrow" as somethign that bypassed AC, requires a check against MR, and consumes an arrow, now that I think about it. 19:02:29 corona helps a bit currently on d:1, magnetism would help for longer 19:02:40 Shadow Arrow could be XL3, though, say 19:02:43 and require an arrow to use. 19:02:52 due: so: plus side is that you ignore AC, downside is you have to check MR? 19:02:53 due: that could work, yeah 19:02:53 (A bit like magnetism only with a slightly different mechanism, and avoiding AC.) 19:02:57 Eronarn: exactly 19:03:02 that sounds cool 19:03:24 obviously, it's darker in tone and fits with cause fear well 19:03:31 I don't see it as a L1 spell, but something to help when you get to orc warrior depth would be nice 19:03:37 how do hunters deal with the early game? 19:03:47 (the lack of arrows therein) 19:03:54 hunters are actually good enough to be okay with that, barely 19:03:54 elliptic: yeah, XL3 or XL4. 19:04:07 and using MR totally fits in with the "arcane" kind of nature. 19:04:09 but AM obviously has to have lower skills / worse gear 19:04:25 elliptic: like unenchanted ammo 19:04:27 something like that at l3/4 could maybe replace mass confusion in the proposed book 19:04:39 Would shadow arrow be tloc? or just hex? 19:04:40 sounds like a much better fit 19:04:40 marvinpa: yes 19:05:02 due: just hex, I'd say 19:05:07 elliptic: yeah, just hex would work 19:05:09 and mostly low-level spells would be good, since AM will want to primarily invest in ranged weapon skill 19:05:25 So... XL1, Magnetism, Hex/Earth, increase to-hit, to-dam, against metallic/metal wearing enemies. 19:05:34 could call this book "the book of deterrence" 19:05:44 And XL3/XL4, Phantom Arrow, Hex, bypasses AC but checks MR, consumes an arrow. 19:06:11 yeah, something like corona/magnetism, slow, phantom arrow, inner flame, enslavement, cause fear 19:06:12 could work 19:06:42 dpeg: Are you happy to go Arcane Archer instead of Arcane Marksmen? 19:06:46 also conveniently has a slight earth/fire bias to counteract the new conjurer book! 19:06:50 i'm not a fan of inner flame / enslavement combo for AM, personally (i like the combo but i don't at all see what it has to do with archery) 19:07:05 well, inner flame with archery is very cool 19:07:08 well inner flame obviously has synergy with AM 19:07:09 Eronarn: I agree; dumping enslavement for Phantom Arrow. 19:07:29 enslavement in the book isn't necessary at all but it would still be very useful for reasons other than inner flame 19:07:30 elliptic: it's cool with anything that puts you at range from the thing when it dies 19:07:33 and enslavement fits the hex theme and just happens to have synergy with inner flame too 19:07:43 and maybe enslavement would actually get used in that book 19:07:47 well, true 19:07:56 as opposed to the En book where it's sadly overlooked :( 19:07:56 MarvinPA: enslavement is a hex spell but i don't think it really has anything to do with the theme of the role that's been discussed 19:08:01 okay, I need to do some work! 19:08:04 enslavement is good for running away from stuff 19:08:07 see you, due 19:08:08 also, you read my reaver proposal with enslave, right? :) 19:08:12 or getting distance from stuff 19:09:27 if the combo turns out to be too good, we can address that 19:09:31 !tell Keskitalo What do you think about making all spider vaults no-tele (too sticky as theme). Gameplay-wise, my motivation is that the maps are small (blink would work). 19:09:31 dpeg: OK, I'll let Keskitalo know. 19:09:46 i don't think it will be too good; i think it will not feel like something an archer would cast 19:09:58 and cause fear does? 19:10:20 elliptic: current cause fear, sure, somewhat 19:10:24 monster cause fear? hell yes 19:10:51 since they don't feel that different to me 19:11:57 they both are attempts to cause monsters to stop attacking you 19:12:35 player cause fear is boring because they run a bit too far away. 19:12:38 * due actually gone now. 19:12:52 something running away can get out of LOS pretty quickly, and it's better to cast the spell later in a fight, after you're surrounded 19:13:16 something failing to be able to approach you is standing there while you shoot it, and you want the spell up as soon as you are in a fight, preventing you from getting surrounded in the first place 19:13:20 this is much more archer-y in theme 19:13:47 perhaps I just don't like how monster cause fear works 19:14:06 i like it more than player cause fear as a spell, though the scroll is fine 19:14:10 not very interesting if a player casts a spell and suddenly monsters can't move forward to attack 19:14:12 as a panic button it's cool but it's too annoying to cast all the time 19:14:27 much more interesting if it is a one-time burst of fear the way the player spell currently works 19:14:33 some monsters, for some duration 19:14:47 it shouldn't be a spell you cast all the time 19:15:15 the way you've described how you want cause fear to work, it sounds like you cast it whenever you see a monster at range and then you shoot arrows at it until it dies 19:15:39 mumra: next time you make a map, be sure to finally uploat it to Mantis. On Mantis, it won't be forgotten. On the forum, it may. 19:15:40 you clearly don't need to do that in every fight 19:15:42 fear should actually cause monsters to flee, at least sometimes 19:15:58 so make it happen sometimes? i'm fine with it having varying levels 19:16:10 but i think having the main effect be them not being able to approach is a much better fit for the role 19:16:26 if sometimes they can approach, and sometimes they flee outright instead, that's fine 19:16:46 that's the current behavior :) 19:16:53 sometimes they can approach, and sometimes they flee 19:17:38 well since it would preserve the current behavior, i guess you don't have a problem with the change? 19:17:42 great 19:17:44 let's do it 19:17:52 ... 19:18:09 03dpeg * r77a882d1ff17 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/spider.des: Add new spider vault (mumra). 19:18:13 03dpeg * r05cb01dc96eb 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/entry/entry_twisted.des: Fix dpeg_entry_water_fire (#4153, zorbathut). 19:18:19 if it would preserve the current behavior, there wouldn't be anything to change :P 19:18:53 it is preserving the current behavior, if you selectively ignore parts of it 19:19:03 i assume you won't run into problems doing that 19:20:04 I'm not necessarily opposed to the change, but at the moment I don't like how it sounds... too much like how people use conjure flame to block monsters from approaching 19:21:08 you haven't ever described the actual mechanics of how it would work though afaik, so it could be better than I'm envisioning :) 19:21:39 conjure flame would make a decent AM starting book spell, fwiw 19:22:15 conjure flame + firing arrows past the flame is ridiculously good 19:22:25 and also not very interesting 19:25:51 elliptic: something like: you cast it, get a status effect, things in the area are afraid of you, once their fear breaks they can approach you freely and they get new MR checks periodically 19:26:16 but are the things that are afraid of you running away or are they standing still? 19:26:45 and things that badly fail the MR could run (and also more generally stuff that can't approach you and can't hurt you either could stand to have its AI tweaked to not stick around) 19:27:04 dpeg: will do - altho i didn't necessarily consider that 100% the final version - but if you like it as is, i'll work on something else :) 19:27:05 mainly I just don't like the standing still 19:27:20 and without the standing still, I'm not sure what the advanages are over the way fear currently works 19:27:49 elliptic: they could still try to maneuver to get on the other side of you; or perhaps they can approach closer as they do better on their MR, rather than it being all-or-nothing 19:28:00 lots of ways to tweak it 19:28:23 basically, convince me that this is an improvement to the spell :P you mention changes, but not the reasons for the changes 19:29:26 i already mentioned reasons as to why it's an improvement: enemies don't run out of LOS and then all over the level, it fixes problems with cause fear and allies, it gives hexes a kind of effect it doesn't have enough of (non-cripple-enemies status effects) 19:29:41 anyways dinenr now 19:30:21 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: sleep] 19:31:44 there are problems with cause fear and allies? 19:32:38 enemies running out of LOS and then all over the level would be annoying, yes... that's more a bug with how fear currently works if so though (not wearing off) 19:32:58 and IME fear scrolls usually don't have an effect long enough for monsters to get out of LoS 20:10:15 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:10:59 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:40 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 20:44:17 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:44:28 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:06:48 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 21:06:48 -!- neunon has quit [Changing host] 21:06:48 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 21:14:06 -!- st_ has quit [] 22:08:55 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:26 -!- Textmode has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:13:36 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 22:17:55 -!- jeanjacques has quit [] 22:54:28 03elliptic * r3aff67ebd4bc 10/crawl-ref/source/ (hiscores.cc hiscores.h): Record which skills are at least 15 in the logfile. 23:29:10 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 23:33:34 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev