00:00:22 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 00:03:17 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-772-g9225c0a (32) 00:04:21 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 00:04:57 -!- Chousuke has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:05:59 -!- Chousuke has joined ##crawl-dev 00:08:40 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.9-a1-772-g9225c0a (32) 00:13:58 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:15:15 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:17:10 oh nice, auto CAO trunk 00:19:06 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-772-g9225c0a 00:24:21 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:33:40 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 00:36:00 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 00:38:04 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: bye] 00:57:27 -!- petete has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:58:28 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:00:39 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:33 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 01:04:49 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 01:22:33 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:45:26 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:45:50 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 02:20:26 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:36:20 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:45:30 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 03:15:22 moin 03:16:29 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 03:17:43 hi 03:34:49 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 03:36:59 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:17:26 how to add a new source file? 04:17:53 I made a new one, but makefile ignores it and it's not compiled. 04:20:25 galehar: add it to makefile.obj 04:20:26 also, any automated way to spot obsolete "#include foo.h" in .cc files? 04:20:26 1. add it to makefile.obj, 2. git add 04:20:37 thanks :) 04:21:24 there's util/includes.sh but it throws a lot of false positives 04:47:23 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:48:16 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:50:28 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 04:52:25 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 05:25:22 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:29:02 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:30:03 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:30:24 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 05:30:27 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:15:21 -!- Sabaki has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 06:19:34 galehar: with tornado radius formula 1+t/10, it barely reaches the regular radius, doing little damage there; for typical stats after a 15-runer w/o Zigs, the duration at radius 5 is just 11 aut. 06:19:43 something like t/5 might be better 06:22:02 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 06:23:02 ok 06:23:11 we can also increase the min radius to 2 06:23:26 increase to max to 6 06:23:43 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:24:10 for the increase, maybe t/7? 06:25:11 we can adjust those numbers later anyway. 06:25:20 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:33:56 two interface issues: 1. small effect looks silly, 2. not sure how to convey that the damage at the edge is often small (if, say, effective duration there is just 1) 06:34:32 1. goes against my idea of a small starting radius, not sure about 2. 06:35:10 and an unrelated question that popped out during testing, due to a miscast: what with twister miscasts? :p 06:35:25 "We have debris" "We have cows"? 06:35:46 due: <3 06:36:49 debris is yet to be coded... but cows... can't think of a good way to add them :p 06:36:59 like, a frog rain but meatier? 06:37:32 That's basically the only thing I remember from the movie Twister. 06:51:30 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:51:50 moving duration calculations before power lets it spawn partial cloud coverage... this gives better visual feedback at the cost of not looking as good 06:58:08 what do you mean by "small effect looks silly"? Monster spinning at radius 1 or 2? 06:59:49 what's the problem with twisters? 07:00:08 it looks like a random cloud miscast/spell, without noticeable tornado structure 07:00:46 twisters will have to be adjusted, but that's mostly straightforward 07:09:17 I think it's ok if it doesn't look like much in the first couple of turns. It catches up later. Especially if we push max radius to 6. 07:15:14 -!- Gretell has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:15:39 not sure about radius, it looks like stretching the duration could help 07:15:55 -!- Napkin_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:16:09 -!- Napkin has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:16:09 -!- greensnark has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:16:10 I tried to come up with a fair non-gameable formula for cooldown, but all are bad 07:16:40 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 07:16:48 so I'd say, let's stretch the duration (longer but less damage), it would both do an equivalent of that cooldown and provide a nerf 07:17:18 -!- greensnark has joined ##crawl-dev 07:17:21 -!- Napkin_ is now known as Napkin 07:17:34 so, same total damage, but over a longer time? 07:17:45 that sounds good. 07:17:59 with that good-for-nothing pure Air, I guess that's the best way 07:19:03 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:19:20 greensnark: are you awake, or is this just your client? I could use some education about XCode and SDK versions, but preferably in a few hours when I'll get home. 07:19:52 greensnark: and great to see you by the way, sorry for demanding help just as you appear :p 07:20:33 just his client, hetzner had connection disturbance, hence the ping-timeout ;) 07:20:44 rats :( 07:21:24 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 07:21:31 kilobyte, didn't you notice that he's almost always online :P 07:22:39 Napkin: about Debian packaging, I've got both all toolchains (lenny-amd64, lenny-i386, squeeze-armel) working, and a script to whip the tarball into shape, upgrade packaging, build it and upload 07:23:12 the question is, how often should it be run, and where 07:25:10 it takes 25 minutes on my box (-j4), so it could be a noticeable drain on CDO 07:27:43 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:28:21 yeah, maximum of -j2 is possible 07:28:44 hrm, probably too much then :( 07:29:12 no, that's ok 07:29:27 should be no problem 07:29:32 and I suggest once a week? 07:30:06 how often other builds are run these days? 07:32:43 # m h dom mon dow 07:32:44 00 7 * * 1,3,5,6,7 07:33:01 mingw & cdo 07:35:04 mingw builds take about 30 minutes too with -j2 07:35:21 for console, sdl & the installer containing both 07:35:28 I think I'd better follow that schedule then and do the builds on my side 07:36:06 mingw does effectively only two builds since ccache gets nearly 100% coverage between zip and installer builds 07:36:19 this would be six 07:36:29 no 07:36:39 the compile-time options are different 07:37:04 if i remember correctly, it's a full compile each time 07:37:19 and, who cares, kilobyte - 2 cpus would be left to deal with the rest 07:38:05 as far as the makefile is concerned yes, but ccache hashes only preprocessed source, not caring about -D options... so files other than initfile.cc tend to be identical 07:38:35 windows installer build use DESTDIR and SAVEDIR options 07:38:47 oh ok 07:39:13 ok, you'd need to copy the three chroots, it'd be too much work to set them up from scratch 07:39:34 actually, I wonder if there is a reason to keep lenny... without it, there could be just one chroot 07:40:56 uuhh.. 07:40:58 wikipedia says the oldest supported version of Ubuntu is Lucid... I'd have to check whether builds against squeeze's libraries work there 07:41:30 and we're back to static builds :> 07:42:05 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:42:22 moin edlothiol 07:42:24 why? It depends on the version of libc and others in lucid. 07:42:35 meow! 07:42:36 hi 07:42:37 oh, aren't they all new enough? 07:42:45 backward compatible? 07:43:03 reminds me I should update webtiles to provide mini-map :-$ 07:43:18 I need coffee! 07:43:44 yes, please ;) 07:44:03 kilobyte, I don't see any reason to keep lenny.. 07:45:30 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:45:39 lucid has libc6 2.11.1, squeeze 2.11.2. It's only a point release so it _might_ work, but also might not. 07:47:35 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 07:49:55 it definitely will work 07:50:01 what did lenny have? 07:51:54 found one - 2.7 07:52:02 -!- st__ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:52:23 why bother with lenny.. 07:55:11 Zaba: some people still didn't upgrade, and it has the benefit of being compatible with all supported releases of Ubuntu (including hardy whose server version is on LTS support) 07:55:29 not sure about other distributions, but I guess they should be compatible too 07:56:15 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:57:37 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:58:31 I'd better check things first (at home) before bothering Napkin then 07:59:49 i have a lenny computer at home, so I could help testing 08:02:27 Zaba: see? Here's an user of lenny. 08:02:55 !coffee Napkin 08:02:58 * Henzell hands Napkin a pot of café mocha, brewed by Ijyb. 08:03:21 hey, moin Eino :) 08:03:28 Hey hey :) 08:03:33 the difference between 3 chroots, each with one toolchain and 1 chroot with three toolchains is just some wasted disk space 08:03:33 kilobyte, yes, but why should somebody deliberately using an old release get new versions of packages :P 08:03:41 if they want a new version, they upgrade to a new release, and such 08:05:01 time & money, Zaba 08:05:16 time & money & family, Zaba 08:05:30 The tile of inner flame and Shroud of Golubria (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4194) by Denzi 08:05:33 you say that as if people maintaining backports don't have time and money and family :P 08:05:39 Denzi \o/ 08:06:03 and hey, it's not even that hard to upgrade a debian system. Not as hard as downgrade, anyway. 08:06:29 rumors :-P 08:06:39 the cost is minimal... libc6 is compatible with any of its version since 1998 (libc5->libc6 transition), SDL hasn't broken compatibility in ages as well, and neither did ncurses or zlib 08:07:49 Zaba: for systems ran by me or you, sure. For systems ran by random users, not really. Let's not be Mozilla, with their ridiculous drop of support for 4.0 three whooping months after release. 08:08:44 I don't really understand what mozilla tries to achieve with increasing the major version number instead of the minor one 08:08:53 it's not like they'll magically become more like chrome just because of that 08:09:07 Zaba: Publicity. 08:09:50 "what?! firefox ist version 3.9 only?! chrome is 12.1, opera is 11.5.. hell, even internet explorer is 9.0" 08:10:03 "we need to catch up quick!" 08:10:07 peer pressure 08:10:47 I like that Opera achieved that number without "artificial" inflation though :) 08:11:27 well, netscape was also at version... 4.5 when firefox was invented? count that in ;) 08:11:36 they follow every bad decision Chrome made. Crashing to desktop on closing last tab (fortunately fixable with an extension). Removal of the status bar. Attempts to remove the URL bar as well. Version number diarrhea. No security support other than "upgrade to the latest version the moment it's released". 08:12:01 (fortunately fixable with about:config option, kilobyte) 08:12:26 (the close window with last tab problem, i mean) 08:12:28 Napkin: oh, nice. 08:12:37 well, crashing to desktop when closing the last tab is not a problem when it starts up fast 08:12:44 and it normally does when it's from cache 08:12:55 (at least, chrome does) 08:13:03 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 08:13:07 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 08:13:08 (browser.tabs.closeWindowWithLastTab) 08:13:26 both are equally fast, depending on how many plugins you have installed 08:13:51 people tend to load a lot of plugins in their firefox.. then start a newly installed chrome and are surprised ;) 08:13:56 Napkin: at least the last time I checked without the extension, you couldn't close the last tab. Was quite a long time ago, though. 08:15:02 I mean, with a similar config option (perhaps even the same). 08:21:26 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 08:22:50 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:23:27 they follow every bad decision Chrome made. 08:23:38 the most annoying decision chrome possesses is the 08:23:58 "adblock? hell no google adwords etc. is our primary source of income! no adblocking for you" 08:24:24 forcing people to use convoluted third party solutions that most don't bother with and are mediocre at best 08:24:30 huh? chrome has adblock 08:26:20 kilobyte: ah, well, with that option it does exactly what it should: close the last tab, keep the window open and open a new empty tab 08:27:04 MarvinPA: it didn't use to. they caved in eventually 08:27:14 it has no built-in adblock 08:27:20 does firefox? 08:27:21 but what does, apart from opera 08:27:24 but for a good number of versions you couldn't even download plugins 08:27:30 right, i didn't think any other browser did 08:27:33 srware iron 08:28:15 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:28:39 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 08:35:23 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 08:44:08 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:44:29 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:50:28 03MarvinPA * r0edd0bf98140 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Fix missing death message for inner flame, reduce damage a bit for tiny monsters 08:54:34 Pacra. MarvinPA: chrome AdBlock is crippled. You can use it to hide visual elements, but not to get rid of tracking and scripts that don't directly show up. 08:56:26 that I did not know 08:56:26 Pacra: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 08:56:40 but it sounds right in line with chrome policy 08:57:04 Google are becoming more vil by the day I guess :( 08:57:38 evil* 08:58:11 to be fair it's not an 'evil' thing 08:58:19 there are plenty other browsers out there 08:58:49 srware is exactly the same as chrome but doesn't report to google your browser information, etc 08:59:19 Intentionally crippling the addon so you cant stop tracking cookies would be pretty evil, but I may have misunderstood you :) 08:59:21 it would be shooting themselves in the foot if they provided a browser themselves that blocked their own money-generating machine, i.e. Google AdSense 09:00:27 Of course, but them being smart doens't mean they're not evil. 09:00:53 perhaps they are Lawful Evil 09:41:00 rat goes berserk! (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4195) by sunspire 09:42:22 The Trog vault with the moth of wrath in the middle comes to mind. 09:52:30 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 10:05:54 -!- LordSlothW has joined ##crawl-dev 10:06:10 I've got a suggestion for the crusader rename 10:06:25 Rename Enchanters-> Hexers, and Skalds->Enchanters 10:14:43 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:20:23 reusing old names or shuffling them is a bad idea. We try to avoid it. 10:22:18 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 10:28:27 -!- cesium has joined ##crawl-dev 10:29:03 CAO asked me to transfer a save again to new git, but then I get new game prompt. Oh, well.... 10:30:33 cesium: :[[[ 10:30:52 yea. What's up with your Ogre streak, Btw? 10:31:57 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:32:01 oh, I choked on the 3rd ogre 10:32:13 let's take it to ##crawl 10:43:10 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 10:50:23 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 10:52:47 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 10:52:51 evenings 10:52:54 !seen nrook 10:52:54 I last saw nrook at Wed Jun 29 03:42:30 2011 UTC (12h 10m 24s ago) quitting with message Quit: Lost terminal. 10:53:03 moin dpeg 10:53:29 !tell nrook In case I am not here yet, I will come. Busy evening here. Don't go away! Scrolls today!! :) 10:53:29 dpeg: OK, I'll let nrook know. 10:53:32 Hi 10:53:32 back later 10:53:35 -!- dpeg has quit [Client Quit] 11:02:29 -!- galehar has quit [] 11:13:11 -!- LordSlothW has left ##crawl-dev 11:41:15 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:48:51 -!- gnsh has quit [] 12:04:12 -!- gnsh has joined ##crawl-dev 12:28:12 03dolorous * r037287588e3c 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Fix shapeshifter inconsistencies. 12:32:16 -!- minced has joined ##crawl-dev 12:48:07 03dolorous * r3b1f732b6d49 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Add a better fix for shapeshifters' having both shapeshifting enchantments. 12:52:35 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:02:45 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11:25 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 13:14:50 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:17:42 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 13:24:47 -!- minced has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:27:59 -!- minced has joined ##crawl-dev 13:34:10 -!- minced has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 14:23:23 -!- jeanjacques has joined ##crawl-dev 14:29:13 I've got a first version of drop_last() working :D 14:29:21 Far from finished but it does it's job :D 14:29:32 its 14:29:33 * 14:34:33 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:43:21 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:11 03kilobyte * r06f58a876645 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-cast.cc: Add missing info about Tornado noise. 14:52:19 03kilobyte * r26d9367116b3 10/crawl-ref/source/ (5 files): #ifdef away the Okawaru piety experiment, don't spam. 14:52:19 03kilobyte * r91804b11fac0 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: A few insults for Azrael. 14:52:21 03kilobyte * r67a1587112e6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 4 dirs): Denzi's tiles for Inner Flame and Shroud of Golubria. 14:52:21 03kilobyte * rfbf04a0a6f1e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (invent.cc itemname.cc): Show found runes on '\'. 14:52:21 03kilobyte * ra233d0436701 10/crawl-ref/source/player-act.cc: Fix a warning. 14:58:07 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:02:52 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 15:05:38 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:11 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 15:21:48 !seen nrook 15:21:49 I last saw nrook at Wed Jun 29 03:42:30 2011 UTC (16h 39m 19s ago) quitting with message Quit: Lost terminal. 15:30:45 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 15:42:29 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:50 nobody in tonight? 15:45:15 I'm here, I just have nothing much to say 15:45:25 dpeg: Just me. And I'm trying to wrap my head around item_def 15:45:43 oh hey ais523 15:46:12 ghallberg: patching D? 15:46:25 possilby a good thing, as I rarely do much but complain 15:46:40 dpeg: Trying to... 15:46:42 !coffee ghallberg 15:46:46 * Henzell hands ghallberg a mug of caffè macchiato, brewed by Sigmund. 15:46:56 * ghallberg pukes. 15:47:01 :) 15:47:05 dpeg: Try a Coke next time ;) 15:47:07 * dpeg does not drink coffee at all. 15:47:12 Smae here 15:47:15 dpeg: good! 15:47:19 But I appreciate the gesture. 15:47:35 tell me when nrook is around, I'll work until then :) 15:50:59 I think drop-last will be revolutionary 15:51:07 Wensley: lol 15:51:30 it enables my laziness, I'd much rather just hit D every time autoexplore picks up crap I don't want than modify my rc with every character :) 15:51:43 True 15:51:55 but an in-game autopickup interface would still probably be the best 15:52:40 but really, I think it's perfect... D is just one of those unused keys and drop-last is a thing that I do a lot 15:53:46 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 15:54:13 I wonder about automatically dropping newly useless items when needed 15:55:00 "newly" as in -- weren't useless when you picked them up: rings that turned up to be hunger, rotting chunks, etc 15:55:08 kilobyte: I've been thinking about auto-dropping rotten chunks 15:55:38 the problem with autodropping stuff is that it could waste a turn at a bad time 15:56:01 you are running from a monster, go around a corner out of sight of it, and you waste a turn dropping a chunk 15:56:02 elliptic: Shouldn't happen with monsters around I guess. 15:56:10 But dropping is quick right? 15:56:10 this is usually a waste of time as the chunk will rot away on its own, but if you're trying to pick up something... 15:56:37 dropping is 1 turn per item 15:56:47 Are there any tactical reasons for dropping stuff except for getting unburdened? 15:56:49 Wensley: I keep suggesting that the \ list should allow to toggle autopickup state 15:56:52 Book for Trog? 15:56:52 elliptic: I'm thinking about doing this during autopickup, and perhaps manual pickup with no one around 15:57:09 ghallberg: burden, 52 items 15:57:23 dpeg: I think that enhancing the \ interface would be ideal for that, yes 15:57:47 Wensley: should just make it an implemetable -- don't think any current dev has the time for this, and it's ideal patch content 15:58:08 There are some bad items with situational uses (e.g. using scroll of curse X to train spellcasting, rotting chunks for spellcasters using Sublimation). An automatic system would have to catch this or at least allow some override. 15:58:45 kilobyte: I think such items are rare enough to not warrant auto-behaviour 15:58:51 ghallberg: if you're on a zig level you can't clear but still want the loot 16:00:08 03elliptic * r636fd5c97b49 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Make killing snakes created by Sticks to Snakes give no piety (Mantis 3913). 16:00:27 cesium: my idea would be to autodrop only items that were not (known) useless before 16:00:43 dpeg might be right about non-chunks 16:00:59 kilobyte: yes, this is a noble idea, but for non-chunks there will be too many minor special cases 16:01:09 and for chunks, there is an option that already works :) 16:01:20 for chunks, though, even dropping not yet rotten but old ones to make place for fresh ones could be good 16:01:30 oh...? 16:01:34 yes, but there is something like this already 16:01:49 don't reinvent the chunk manager 16:03:00 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:04:28 Why does swap_inv_slots actually switch the items aswell as switching the slots? 16:08:25 dpeg: I can't find anything like that, could you point me to it? 16:12:23 let me try 16:12:46 ghallberg: this seems the desired behaviour 16:13:04 dpeg: Yeah I guess it keeps the inv[] array sorted. 16:13:23 Makes it hard to keep track of where the last item you pickd up is though. 16:26:00 kilobyte: okay, I did not find it. Perhaps some lua magic set up by a player. Or I am imagining it :) 16:26:27 all the more of a reason to implement it then! 16:26:39 yes! 16:27:02 does d& to drop bad chunks (still) work? 16:28:11 dpeg: kilobyte: Is there any reference to an item that persist through swapping? 16:28:14 not sure, "d," does but it drops a number of non-useless items like books (on Trog chars), even if you knowingly picked them up 16:28:25 Or should I assume that items you have moved around are items you want to keep? :) 16:28:55 d& is specifically for corpses/skeletons/bad chunks, I think 16:29:05 ghallberg: none I know of. Like electrons, identical items are not distinguishable :p 16:29:05 ghallberg: yes, that is a safe assumption 16:29:30 kilobyte: It's not about identical items, it's if you swpa places with = 16:31:14 or ' 16:31:24 eh, not ' 16:32:34 dpeg: indeed, d& works, I didn't know that 16:33:14 I added it to the drop help, that is how I knew :) 16:37:35 Ah well, got it kind of working now. Good enough for tonight. 16:37:41 Need to get up in <8 hours >.< 16:38:17 D works! 16:39:55 yay 16:40:02 nights ghallberg 16:44:09 03kilobyte * r34d41e6155bc 10/crawl-ref/docs/options_guide.txt: Mention Ashenzari's sensed monsters among redefinable ones. 16:44:18 03kilobyte * r35c37583d2aa 10/crawl-ref/docs/crawl_manual.reST: A description for skalds in the manual (sync via wiki) 16:49:53 kilobyte: I sent a description to galehar recently, did he give it to you? 16:54:27 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55:04 uhm, no. Was yours meant for the manual, or the in-game database? 16:56:47 manual - isn't this the same as database? 16:56:55 let me forward the mail, feel free to ignore it 16:57:32 my desc is clumsy and all-flavour, lemme look at yours 16:57:38 ah, got the mail 17:00:04 not sure mine is any better :) 17:04:32 I'd say Eronarn's start is better, but his end not so much. 17:04:48 you can also combine 17:05:02 I wanted some nod to the north because of the origin of "skald". 17:05:56 exactly, this is what I wanted to propose 17:06:22 if you tell me what kind of theme you are looking for i can certainly tweak what i have 17:07:33 I always sucked at writing descriptions (and being a long time MUD coder, I know the extent of this suckitude well), so I guess there are others who can judge descriptions much better 17:08:28 "warrior clans from the highlands"? 17:08:44 fine 17:09:16 i didn't want to explicitly say norse, of course, so something that evoked a 'primitive' culture but wasn't a straight-up reference seemed appropriate 17:09:23 dpeg & kilobyte: elliptic actually found historical literature of a skald last night and was reading through it, maybe he would be able to help with the northern flavour 17:09:40 I'm not good at writing descriptions 17:09:45 actually why don't we just use this 17:09:48 Wensley: awesome 17:09:56 http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/7755/ 17:10:04 it's pretty much the most skald-y song you are going to find 17:10:07 Ok still not sleeping, let's see if I can rebase this stuff.... 17:10:07 ??skald[3] 17:10:08 skald[3/3]: for those doubting the warriorness of skalds: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/265 17:10:25 that was what I was looking at though 17:10:49 it's not a really forced reference but would be cute to people who do know the song 17:11:09 and not Ragnar Lordbrok? (or whatever was he called) 17:11:51 kilobyte: there are probably better references, yeah... this was just the first thing I found 17:13:33 btw, kilobyte / dpeg: do we want to try octos for .9? i haven't had anyone mention yet any drastic problems with them, and they do have a reasonable amount of winners 17:13:47 we already came to a general agreement about where to go from here, but it's nothing too controversial (some nerfs to UC) 17:14:36 there was a mighty hero who finally got captured and was so skilled that even with bound hands he played lute with his feet good enough that he charmed snakes in a pit he was thrown into... except for one snake which was deaf 17:14:45 can't recall his name 17:15:39 FR: instead of a mace, skalds can begin with a lute 17:15:55 Wensley: Banjo 17:16:12 el-kabong (CeSk) 17:16:56 now we just need to implement a god of music that allows you to rock out while playing 17:17:05 s/play/pray 17:17:27 Eronarn: I would be fine with that, but there are some interesting ideas for Oc out there (I think of ink and reaching). 17:17:42 Wensley: but we all listen to Debussy while playing! 17:17:50 about that song: it doesn't explain what Skalds are, and doesn't fit in a prose manual, but then, having it be the paragraph about Skalds would be pretty meta 17:18:14 kilobyte: we could use it as a quote for a skald unique some time in the future, if nowhere else. Or the quote for War Chants description. 17:18:23 or wait, do books even get a description? 17:18:23 dpeg: has elliptic or anyone run the magnetism spell idea past you? 17:18:29 I've been intending to start a "crawl quote project" on the tavern to get people to supply quotes for things in crawl that still lack quotes 17:18:56 Wensley: not necessarily a good thing... 17:18:59 Eronarn: they do. 95% have "A book of magic spells." 17:19:02 we don't want *everything* to have quotes. 17:19:05 due: anti-quotes? 17:19:14 dpeg: ink is a no-go, reaching is being considered. the problem with it is that Op can swim, so they can kill stuff scummily if they have reaching 17:19:18 no, pro-relevant-interesting-occasional quotes. 17:19:37 as for why ink is a no-go: makes little sense to have it on land unless it's in water, and it would be broken in water (on demand scroll of fog) 17:20:27 personally i would prefer constriction to reaching, but we definitely don't have enough time for that for .9 17:20:40 on demand scroll of fog doesn't sound too bad really if you can only use it in water 17:20:47 due: a rehash: I didn't know that both Eronarn and dpeg wrote descriptions and mailed them to galehar instead of putting them directly into the manual, and wrote a third one 17:21:08 i think op with the UC nerfs (lose beak and claws) + reaching + maybe regen 1 would be at least a good start 17:21:29 kilobyte: ah 17:21:33 but i'm fine with putting it off until 1.0, too, since i'm too busy to do much crawl stuff lately 17:21:38 due: as the only one among us with any writing skills, could you pick/merge/rewrite one and put it into the manual? 17:21:45 kilobyte: sure! 17:22:08 hey, i can write just fine, thank you very much :P 17:22:18 by the way, about reaching, I'm currently changing how it handles knight-moves 17:22:33 Eronarn: I don't see why ?fog is a no-go, if it is limited. 17:22:40 since the current status is still abusable (hide behind two rats) 17:22:48 kilobyte: can someone send me the two bits? 17:23:11 Reaching with deep water is a problem, that is true. (Of course, Mf have the same issue.) The proper solution would be for monsters not to approach you if they cannot get to you. 17:23:34 dpeg: yes, that was my suggestion - but i don't know if that AI change is feasible on short notice 17:23:40 no, not at all 17:23:46 which is why I'd wait 17:23:56 the cool people play trunk anyway (so they have Oc) 17:24:04 dpeg: my suggestion was that tentacles mut become two separate ones: arms and legs 17:24:10 if you have arms, you have reaching 17:24:13 if you have legs, you have constriction 17:24:35 op have both, DS can get them also as a body slot facet (better odds if monstrous) 17:24:38 interesting but do you want the player to control all eight arms? :) 17:24:41 and available as a random mut as well 17:24:57 due: I sent all three versions 17:25:01 I'd really like to give Na constriction. 17:25:25 kilobyte/due: thanks for sorting out the rest issues! 17:25:30 indeed, i've wanted that since back on sourceforge :P 17:25:47 I dimly recall. They'd profit a lot from it (especially the monsters :) 17:25:49 kilobyte: thanks, got! 17:26:03 also, these guys 17:26:06 @??giant leech 17:26:06 giant leech (05w) | Speed: 8 | HD: 6 | Health: 31-59 | AC/EV: 5/15 | Damage: 2005(vampiric) | Flags: amphibious, evil | Res: 06magic(24), 12drown | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 87. 17:26:09 @??tentacled monstrosity 17:26:09 tentacled monstrosity (03X) | Speed: 9 | HD: 25 | Health: 112-165 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Damage: 22, 17, 13 | Flags: 05demonic, amphibious, see invisible | Res: 06magic(166), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 2126. 17:27:01 leeches are cool, I <3 them stinging at your back 17:28:44 dpeg: so the options with op would be: 1) leave them up in trunk until .9 beta starts, then they go away until after .9 is released, then they come back. 2) put them in .9 with mostly status quo, and in 1.0, give them reaching and/or constriction 17:29:12 0.9 -> 1.0? I thought we were going 0.10? 17:29:25 don't open can of worms! 17:29:30 $NEXTVERSION 17:29:36 thanks dpeg 17:29:38 but what color are the worms?! 17:29:57 (can of worms would be a great rare misc item) 17:30:11 colour -- that reminds me that I flaked with my project to give new colours to all monsters who resemble walls :( 17:30:20 ((it could have wyrms in it too, of course)) 17:30:29 "You open the can of brain worms. You feel smart." 17:30:48 ...ooh, forest wyrms. that's another thing to try and get into .9 17:30:53 Eronarn: better to do 1) on Oc, imo. We can play them, the players can wait. 17:31:01 I'd personally like octopodes for tourney 17:31:09 patience is a virute 17:31:13 virtue even 17:31:48 i'm fine with waiting - i'm too busy to play crawl anyways - but some players have been under the impression that they're going in 17:31:50 they are far from being balanced, but there are no serious bugs 17:32:52 We have waited with Vp or Shoals... since we have ideas for them, it is better to hold out. 17:33:08 so 1) it is. for forest wyrms: these have been sitting waiting for someone to look at the code for months and months 17:33:19 but they have a quote, flavor, etc. 17:33:35 i would like to get them in so that they stop suffering bitrot 17:33:44 I won't fight either way for Oc: both 0.9 and 0.10 are acceptable 17:35:03 Eronarn: sorry for ignoring that, lemme take a brief look to assess how much work merging would take -- and whether they're undisruptive enough for short term 17:36:00 kilobyte: one thing to be aware of with that is that it they have a semi-dependency on the other patch in the issue, which revises trample 17:36:10 it lets forest wyrms trample toadstools, and their breath makes no sense without that 17:36:32 the trample code is where the potential for crashes comes into play 17:36:49 as i am not sure i'm properly sanity checking in the trample code, since it can trample things even if they die 17:36:59 and obviously one doesn't want to move dead monsters around 17:40:36 kilobyte: replied with my idea 17:40:56 ARGH 17:40:59 ignore that, I missed an either 17:42:01 okay, sent; i think it adequately combines the raw ideas of each of the other three without being too overbearing. 17:42:51 I should subscribe to the mailing list soon. 17:43:27 due: "they man inspire greatness"? 17:44:24 kilobyte: second email has the correct one 17:44:41 http://paste.pound-python.org/show/8772/ 17:44:55 (if it didn't go through, that's it; also, for Eronarn and dpeggish perusal1) 17:46:09 ' or fear in the hearts of their enemies.' 17:46:12 is this actually true though 17:46:20 because cause fear is a hex and skalds don't have hexes so... 17:46:35 my only response to that is "feh". 17:47:17 i was specifically referring to skalds in general. 17:47:31 it's certainly a spell they could end up learning in the future, with the right skill combinations. 17:47:33 i mean it sounds fine, it's just misleading for the role as it is in crawl 17:47:57 due: it'd be faster to edit https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:manual:rest directly rather than mail/pastebin stuff 17:48:05 it's the authoritative copy 17:49:25 hm, I wonder how long reaching has been broken in this way... assuming this is unintentional 17:49:32 which way? 17:49:33 elliptic: what is it? 17:49:33 const int skill = weapon_skill(wpn.base_type, wpn.sub_type); 17:49:44 weapon_skill returns a skill_type enum 17:50:01 it trains the wrong thing? 17:50:15 if (!x_chance_in_y(5 + (3 * skill), 40)) 17:50:20 O_o 17:50:22 oh wow 17:50:25 that's awesome 17:50:27 nice 17:50:29 HAHAHA that is... amazing 17:50:36 suggestions on what to change it to? 17:50:45 not that it matters much 17:50:58 less chance of failure with higher skill-number weaposn? :D 17:51:09 M&F are 4, polearms 5 17:51:11 kilobyte: yeah, not many different skills used 17:51:15 just replace skill with your_skill_value(skill) i forget what the function to retrieve your skill from an enum is 17:51:31 change it to 20, 40? 17:51:37 I presume skill is between 0 and 27 of Pla/M&F 17:51:39 as Eronarn says 17:51:47 dpeg: it's supposed to be 17:51:49 dpeg: well, that is what the writer probably hoped 17:51:52 :) 17:51:55 but rigt now it's used its ordinal position in the enum 17:52:02 yeah 17:52:07 well, that would mean that at 12 skill or more, it would never fail to reach past a monster 17:52:10 and apparently right now i can't operate my keyboard properly :( 17:52:11 which is a major change 17:52:18 and which would make it abusable again with rats 17:52:20 you.skill(SK_CHAINSAWS) if you want Ashenzari/Okawaru bonuses 17:52:36 good point 17:53:07 elliptic: yes, I guess we're better off having a small, flat chance of missing (on top of the skill-based one) 17:53:10 i think a flat chance using SK_POLEARMS would retain the status quo and remove confusion for later 17:53:29 due: yeah 17:53:48 so just coinflip() ? 17:54:11 misses in 50% of cases? 17:54:21 that makes it too cumbersome 17:54:26 dpeg: this is for reaching past another monster 17:54:39 dpeg: that's the current code 17:54:50 and currently it attacks the monster you are reaching past if it fails to hit the monster 2 squares away 17:55:02 you have to enlighten me: reaching of allies always works? 17:55:12 no, same chance there 17:55:12 either coinflip() or one_chance_in(3) would be okay, imho. 17:55:40 and I'm presuming if tentacles are the reach-y part, you can therefore reach with any weapon, and hence not changing it would mean that you have better reaching success with higher skill enum weapons? :) 17:55:45 one_chance_in(3) of failing? would be a reaching buff 17:55:58 oh, !one_chance_in(3) then 17:56:19 i meant one_chance_in(3) of succeeding, rather than failing. 17:56:22 I'll just leave it at coinflip() 17:56:34 status quo is fine for now, I think 17:56:36 if you roll bad on that one, you will still attack one of the monsters in the way? 17:56:41 But there's not much difference between x_chance_in_y(17, 40) and (20, 40). 17:56:51 dpeg: if the monster in the way is hostile, yes 17:56:51 radical idea: what about just not letting it attack past enemy monsters (but allied ones are okay) 17:57:05 if the monster in the way is friendly, nothing happens 17:57:09 ok 17:57:53 kilobyte: will update wiki this afternoon, don't have access on this machine 17:57:54 Ok, now I rewrote all the stuff I did before because of a silly git mistake. 17:57:57 Time to sleep. 17:58:02 nights again! 17:58:22 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 18:00:05 !tell kilobyte just let me know if any of the problems with trampling/wyrms are potentially fixable ones. I don't mind putting in some coding on it if it'll help it get in .9, since it beats it bitrotting in github any further 18:00:06 Eronarn: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 18:06:08 03elliptic * r0708a4559a07 10/crawl-ref/source/ (evoke.cc target.cc): Allow monsters to block knight-move reaching attempts. 18:06:09 03elliptic * rb93d4203d413 10/crawl-ref/source/evoke.cc: Make the chance of reaching past a monster not depend on the type of weapon used. 18:14:57 currently monsters with intrinsic reaching can't reach diagonally 18:15:01 is there any reason for this 18:17:08 don't think so 18:17:21 not sure, but it certainly was done intentionally, since there's quite a bit of code to implement that 18:17:21 kilobyte: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them. 18:17:24 elliptic: orcs with a reaching weapon can? 18:17:31 kilobyte: yeah 18:17:33 dpeg: yes 18:17:38 (I've rewritten some of it, but preserved the behaviour) 18:17:51 orcs with a reaching weapon can, snapping turtles cannot 18:17:57 snapping turtles can't, but this predates them, I think 18:18:30 doesn't this just enforce NH-unicorn style behaviour? 18:19:25 it makes approaching snapping turtles diagonally better than approaching them in any other way 18:19:32 yes 18:19:49 this is a smaller version of the general issues with circles in crawl 18:20:28 compare with how you should approach ranged creatures diagonally 18:22:09 03kilobyte * re3d509f8f439 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Denzi's icon for inner flame on monsters. 18:22:15 I don't want to open the squarelos debate right now, but this is a perfect example of how non-square circles cause problems 18:23:09 anyway the radius 2 square is also the radius sqrt(8) circle, so even the circlelos fanatic in the room shouldn't mind changing snapping turtles ;P 18:23:50 currently the only way to get the first hit on a snapping turtle is to go 2 squares away from it diagonally and wait for it to move, which is just silly 18:23:55 elliptic: sane LOS is more flexible than square, yes 18:24:07 please 18:24:09 :p 18:24:50 I won't bring up how invisistabbing a monster with sense invisible is fully twice as good if you approach diagonally :P 18:25:46 elliptic: I proposed a fix long time ago, it was argued against even though it never breaks movement 18:26:10 it was probably argued against because squarelos is a much better fix :P 18:27:09 "there's a spider on the wall" -- "let's burn the house, it will kill the spider" 18:28:26 calling something "burn the house" that was tested out and that most people liked is really a bit much 18:29:49 "I don't want to open the squarelos debate right now" :) 18:29:53 or rather, :] 18:30:17 dpeg: well, I didn't :) 18:30:55 squarelos can wait until 0.10 as far as I'm concerned 18:31:07 can't we agree for now to just make reaching go in all directions for monsters? 18:32:27 sure... as I said earlier, it is still a circular range 18:34:20 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 18:34:48 I'll leave the code for knight-move reaching alive for the time being, I guess 18:35:52 just do the other square -- how do you dare discriminate for Chebyshev against Minkovsky :> 18:37:00 FR: squarelos god with its own background :P 18:37:25 pact goddd :( 18:38:26 Eronarn: did you write up a proposal for that god? 18:38:34 Wensley: originally it was a proposal for kiku 18:38:36 from years back 18:38:43 there's so many other possible metrics... use random LOS distortion for that 18:38:53 Wensley: I love the idea of a squarelos god 18:39:22 the proposal there: you have a sequence of pacts like A B C D E F G, and the actual order you receive them is slightly shuffled (A D C B ...). you can either turn a pact down (and get a new offer some time in the future), or accept the offer at a maxHP cost 18:39:44 with the offers being things like 'receive a book of necromancy' or 'gain bone plating mutation' 18:40:04 is this the same idea as the summoner pact god? 18:40:22 yes 18:40:27 Wensley: i think that with kiku being mostly OK now, it would fit better as a summoner god, and not costing maxHP 18:40:27 god should be on the wiki 18:41:13 originally it was for kiku as a nec/summ god but it's just lopping off the nec 18:43:18 Eronarn: your wyrms masquerade as swamp dragons 18:43:42 yeah, known problem 18:44:00 i would like them to be dragon-green, and dragons to be red 18:45:05 to masquerade in woodlands better? 18:45:46 sadly, only so many colors to work with :( 18:46:21 03elliptic * rc378cea41752 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-act.cc monster.cc): Allow snapping turtles and Geryon to reach diagonally. 18:47:58 (elephants still have the same problem, btw. can we make them grey Ys instead of green?) 18:48:09 sheep can be white ones, of course 18:48:17 shouldn't they be on l with lindwyrms 18:48:32 st__: they are much, much more threatening than any current l 18:48:40 they're like flightless dragons 18:49:50 kilobyte: I played a trogite yesterday to test out the berserk nerfs, and the balance seemed fine but the interface could use some help given how much a single step hurts berserk duration now... easy to do that accidentally 18:50:11 mesm on berserk ;) 18:50:12 (speaking of Y, I've chosen magenta for catoblepae, to match basilisks (and because I'm saving cyan for kelpies :P )) 18:50:12 what do people think about a prompt for moving while berserk with a hostile monster next to you? 18:50:28 i think a prompt is a bit much 18:52:06 elliptic: I think it could help to clarify the rules for berserk in the invocation/item description, I'm not even sure how moving around affects the duration 18:52:08 it would only trigger on non-accidents if you were behaving unberserkerly and not attacking something that you could 18:52:48 there's still the idea of making autofight saner and forcing it on berserk 18:53:22 that's a terrible idea 18:53:26 forcing it? you mean like how braverobin works? no control over the character until berserk ends? 18:53:38 players do not like losing control over their character 18:53:47 never seen braverobin, but yeah 18:54:02 current autofight doesn't prioritize and that's the biggest problem 18:54:11 braverobin autofights for you whenever you see a monster 18:54:16 it often gets stuck due to no pathfinding, too 18:54:32 kilobyte: this isn't a matter of autofight working well or not - it would be a bad idea even if autofight were really good 18:55:01 improving autofight would help even if we didn't force it 18:55:12 this is why people complain so much about paralysis - because if you die it feels like you got no chance to respond / you had no control over your death 18:55:13 since more people would use it 18:55:55 restored no-combat penalty makes pretty much anything but combat unwise in nearly every case anyway 18:56:30 paralysis could affect only one random body part... if it gets your legs, you can't move, if it gets your hands, you can't move or cast spells, if it gets your head, you can't invoke or cast spells or shout orders 18:56:42 kilobyte: often it makes sense currently to move away a couple times to get berserk to end faster, so that you can scroll of blinking away 18:56:58 s/move or cast spells/attack or cast spells 18:57:00 Wensley: that'd make a good hex/nec or hex/tmut or tmut/nec spell 18:57:03 'withering curse' 18:57:06 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:14 very powerful but not guaranteed what the effect will be 18:58:47 kilobyte: another option is to decrease the no-combat penalty again and nerf trog in some other way to compensate 19:02:09 Wensley: if it gets your lungs or heart, you die? 19:02:26 kilobyte: maybe in hard mode :P 19:02:29 elliptic: perhaps, yeah... do you have something on mind? 19:03:00 or, if it gets your lungs, no breath weapons. if it gets your heart, you lose half your current health 19:03:00 kilobyte: not sure, but I don't think it would have to be major... making BiA summons a little weaker on average, say 19:05:00 mesmerisation on berserk I don't agree with 19:05:10 berserk is a fine mechanic, there is no need to cripple it 19:05:20 kilobyte: I think the balance effects of the no-combat penalty are relatively small, at least compared with the 2x -> 1.5x nerf 19:05:27 and autofight is even worse 19:06:27 one could also go with some sort of mechanic where the size of the no-combat penalty depends on whether you are moving towards monsters or away from them 19:08:27 could berserk decay be based on tension? if you get more damaged, your berserk decays slower. if more enemies appear, your berserk decays slower. if you kill some enemies, berserk decays faster 19:08:30 chasing someone in a rage makes sense 19:09:04 of course, Trog's wrath is still too deadly 19:10:00 (right now monsters don't have such a penalty though, so they might not get a bonus) 19:16:26 -!- syllogism has quit [] 19:17:55 elliptic: yes, and we could indicate this a la "Running away makes your blood boil less." 19:21:12 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:22:14 is there any obvious reason why my catoblepas' breath begins petrifying rats instantly, but players have to be in the cloud the turn after it appears before they can start petrifying? 19:23:05 I haven't coded any chance for the player to resist the cloud at all, so I don't think that's the culprit 19:25:12 is that just how cloud secondary effects work, and I've never noticed? 19:28:33 hmm, I suppose it's not an issue as long as I go ahead and make the cloud wash over you like I was planning on doing 19:34:43 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:43:35 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 20:00:16 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:03 Wensley: probably because cloud effects are triggered later for players than for monsters, perhaps? 20:01:29 -!- cesium has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:11 due: that seems to be the case, swamp drake breath doesn't trigger confusion if you immediately walk out of it (which I never realized) 20:03:19 anyway, I think it's actually cooler if the calcifying dust takes a moment to settle on your skin before it starts petrifying you 20:04:58 this could possibly be a regressive bug 20:05:49 Sounds like monster breath happens at the end of "your" turn (when monsters react), therefore the cloud is in your square at the start of your turn, however the "player reacts" part of the cloud code isn't triggered until the end of your turn again. 20:05:54 This could be fixed by moving the call to the start of the turn. 20:06:06 (If it actually is a bug.) 20:06:24 due: also fix the one vault with the rotating flame clouds :) 20:14:35 due: well, it has worked in the way it currently does since at least 0.5 20:14:44 elliptic: yeah. 20:14:48 not a regression, i'm thinking. 20:15:35 giving people a chance to get out of clouds is probably more interesting usually anyway, especially now that blink isn't a guaranteed escape 20:16:27 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:58 okay, so what sort of check do people think is appropriate for automatically resisting petrification via cloud? should I use the noxious cloud formula, which is if (1 + random2(27) >= you.experience_level) ? 20:24:48 note that catoblepae are lair monsters at the same depth as hydras (though currently rarer), and their breath is a straight line rather than a plume like a swamp drake 20:26:38 so it's almost always possible to sidestep the plume of dust, but as it keeps breathing it cuts off more and more of your routes, and being petrified is pretty scary 20:32:42 automatically resisting? do you get another chance to resist also? 20:35:21 (1 + random2(27) >= you.experience_level) will make you automatically resist confusion in a noxious cloud if false, and the check happens each turn in the cloud. 20:36:12 I'm not 100% sure about petrification, but I think that this is the only chance to resist as long as you're not completely immune to petrification (which is handled by a different function) 20:38:31 anyway the meph formula doesn't sound terrible given what you've said, though possibly it should be a bit easier to resist 20:39:03 elliptic: monster meph can only confuse you for one or two turns, on a coinflip 20:39:21 so it's not nearly as debilitating as using meph against monsters 20:39:42 yes? 20:39:59 I mean, I know I've seen monsters confused by meph for dozens of turns 20:40:10 but yeah, the max duration of player confustion from a stinking cloud is two turns 20:40:40 I meant that the meph formula doesn't sound terrible as something to use for petrifying clouds 20:40:56 ah, okay 20:41:01 mmmeph <3 20:41:32 for the moment I think I'll make it slightly less resistable than meph, just to see how deadly it is to get petrified 20:44:08 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:44:27 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:53:14 I don't really like relating most anything to XL, but this may not be the place to get started on this. 21:16:44 -!- jeanjacques has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:18 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:19:27 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:25:56 hmm... it seems like catoblepae have no problem walking through a petrifying cloud if *I* cast it, but they don't want to walk through their own clouds even though they're immune :/ 21:28:05 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:21 Wensley: when you cast it, do you cast it on them, or in front of them? 21:30:30 on them 21:30:37 Wensley: they might be okay with it because they're already in the clouds 21:30:38 it's an auto-hit spell that does no damage 21:30:40 Wensley: hope it helps 21:30:42 ah, good point 21:30:44 hmm 21:39:35 okay... so swamp dragons will walk into their own clouds... now just need to figure out why 21:44:44 a-ha! mon-stuff 21:57:22 okay... I think catoblepae are done, now I just need to maybe tweak some of their stats 22:00:11 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:01:29 yay 22:02:24 so Eronarn, do you think catoblepae should be very lethal, or just extremely lethal 22:03:11 which side of the lethality camp do you inhabit, is what I am asking 22:07:36 here are their stats: https://github.com/Wensleydale/DCSS-branches/blob/catoblepas/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h#L3957 to summarize: they are slow (speed 8), so I'm thinking they should replace one of the boring slugs or something (the idea is that they will catch up to you via petrification). they have high ac, low ev, one attack for 40 damage, and the same hp as a death yak 22:08:47 currently they are at the same depth in lair as hydras, and their rarity is equal to half the rarity of old gila monsters (just cut the basilisk rarity in half and put catoblepas at the same value) 22:16:45 Wensley: 40? that's rather brutal 22:16:52 @??death yak 22:16:52 death yak (08Y) | Speed: 10 | HD: 14 | Health: 56-96 | AC/EV: 9/5 | Damage: 30 | Res: 06magic(93) | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 1057. 22:17:01 they sound like slow dire elephants with petrify breath 22:17:10 Eronarn: it's designed to overcome the DR of petrification 22:17:17 like I said, they will kill you 22:17:22 which is why maybe they should be changed 22:17:24 maybe :P 22:17:26 i think making them quite lethal is fine 22:18:06 unlike all other Y, they don't spawn in packs. and they'll even petrify enemies around you, if you position yourself correctly 22:18:37 and since there are so few chokepoints in lair, it's almost inconcievable that you won't be able to step away from at least the first blast of dust 22:18:54 in corridors the clouds are murder, though 22:19:18 so it's actually good for you that lair has no narrow corridors, for a change 22:19:42 I'm not sure how you expect players to kill these :P 22:20:36 elliptic: because clouds don't affect you until the turn after you spawn, I'm hoping people will serpentine towards the beast as it breathes at them, avoiding the ever-increasing number of clouds 22:20:44 death yak HP and more AC means they are really hard to kill at beginning of lair, even if you avoid the clouds 22:20:47 and then circle-strafe around it as they fight 22:20:56 that sounds incredibly annoying 22:20:59 and then, er, blink scroll away 22:21:15 should I make them deeper? 22:21:32 hydras spawn on lair+5, for reference, the same as catoblepae right now 22:21:41 or however the hell the spawn code works 22:21:49 hydras spawn starting at lair:1 22:22:11 elliptic: I put them in the same switch case as hydras for spawn depth, it said something about +5 :P 22:22:52 I don't know the details of the spawn code either 22:23:02 but I'd put them closer to death yak depth 22:23:30 Wensley: what about making them not immune to their own breath, but giving them a knockback tail attack? 22:24:10 hmm 22:24:35 wait, does *anything* have knockback that isn't trample? 22:24:50 not yet 22:25:04 don't trust myself enough to code that myself :P 22:25:12 it's not difficult 22:25:14 making you guys fix my bugs is not my aim 22:25:17 it's just trample that doesn't follow 22:25:23 i'll code it if we want it 22:25:32 I mean, if it's just changing parameters I can do that 22:25:44 well, you'd have to add the parameters, and the attack flavor 22:25:48 and then just check those 22:25:54 but it shouldn't be more than 10 lines or so of code 22:27:39 I will look into it 22:28:05 its main gore attack could also be a ranged attack, seeing as how the catoblepas has a freaky long neck 22:28:15 but then this monster might just be murder 22:28:23 s/ranged/reaching 22:29:21 Wensley: you could give it reaching AND knockback 22:29:23 guess I could give it reaching and then reduce its gore attack by a bit 22:29:47 petrified stuff cannot be knockbacked,o f course 22:31:03 does geryon's attack have both reaching and trample, or does he have two attacks, one with reaching and one with trample? 22:31:16 oh hey I should just look this stuff up myself 22:31:42 right now, attack flavors can't be combined, unless they're specialcased 22:31:42 geryon just has reaching, no trample 22:31:52 beasts have trample 22:31:56 due has said things about making it so that they can be combined 22:38:16 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:25 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:38:49 I actually really like the idea that their neck is long enough to give them reaching 22:39:09 I have made their gore attack damage 30 22:40:09 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:40:27 Wensley: are they like D&D ones that have long tails? 22:40:47 no? I haven't seen d&d catoblepae, I am using wikipedia as reference 22:40:59 giving them reaching seems to be taking away from the glory of snapping turtles 22:41:03 which says that their necks "are as long and loose as an emptied intestine" 22:41:22 @??snapping turtle 22:41:22 snapping turtle (03t) | Speed: 9 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 10 | Health: 40-81 | AC/EV: 16/5 | Damage: 30(reach) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40), 12drown | XP: 281. 22:41:44 good point 22:42:45 huh, I never realized that snapping turtles can double-attack 22:43:35 Wensley: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oJADBuF7N5Y/TBgL2EddqmI/AAAAAAAAAHo/6a2kX-hRi_0/s1600/Catoblepas.jpg 22:43:39 that is a D&D one 22:43:49 what the fuck is that 22:43:51 which is by far my favorite representation of them 22:44:47 http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/17166/1451027-catoblepas_03_screen_large.jpg 22:44:55 a more muscly, but still D&D-ized, catoblepas 22:44:56 that is the offspring of a pleiosaur and an anklyosaur 22:45:04 yeah! that's why they're so awesome! 22:47:45 i think i'd give them tail-slap knockback low damage, reaching higher damage gore, and not immunity to their own breath so that they won't breathe if you're in melee range of them 22:48:13 they'd still breathe 22:48:16 and hope that this makes fighting them more fun than running around in a circle around them 22:48:22 it's not like breathing puts them in their own cloud 22:48:24 Wensley: not if you do the tracer right 22:48:35 i thought the cloud surrounded the player? 22:48:41 nope 22:48:43 it's just a line 22:48:45 nothing more 22:48:50 oh 22:48:51 although it extends beyond the player 22:49:17 that's why I think it will be actually fun to dodge the streams of dust, rather than just be murdered by them 22:49:43 i doubt it :/ 22:49:45 but I have yet to playtest them in a real environment because I am compiled in debug mode and getting to lair would take infinity 22:49:53 they're already going to be hard to take in a standup fight 22:50:04 they are pretty easy to run from 22:50:09 at least, if you choose to run early 22:50:31 and you don't meet it around a corner 22:51:28 does trunk break save compatibility often? 22:51:33 sure, but i'm not sure it is a good idea to have an enemy that is so hard to kill + so damaging in melee + so easy to run from 22:51:48 stabwound: not if they can help it, no 22:52:08 they are like roving death machines, haunting your level 22:52:15 maybe only I would find that fun :/ 22:53:18 it could be fun but it could also be very unfun 22:53:34 I could give them less AC, right now they have 11 (death yaks have 9) 22:53:54 they are supposed to have scales all over their body, but I can ignore that part 22:55:26 and their EV is crap, if you have any ranged weapons I think they will go down pretty easily, as long as you have room to sidestep the stream 22:55:52 stabwound: not often, no... but if you tried to transfer a game on CAO, that might not be working right 22:56:28 there was a problem with it the other day, anyway 22:56:46 Eronarn: I had planned to make attack flags additive bitmasks 22:58:28 that would be nice, yes :) 23:00:09 Wensley: well, it might be fine, certainly try it - it's just something i'd be concerned with in balance 23:00:56 Eronarn: thanks for the suggestions, I'll keep them in mind as I playtest them 23:09:58 -!- Sabaki has joined ##crawl-dev 23:18:02 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 23:20:16 -!- petete has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:32:01 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:32:43 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:39 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:42:12 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]