00:39:04 LuckyNed the Frost Mage (L15 DSIE) (D:16) 01:06:05 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 01:47:06 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 01:47:16 I'm baaa~k. 01:47:17 :) 01:48:07 I heard on crawl-ref-discuss that someone might be selling art from crawl, and I have friends that do IP law for OSS projects that I can talk to if you guys want. 01:48:53 Art... From crawl? 01:49:00 LuckyNed the Frost Mage (L17 DSIE) (Swamp:1) 01:49:10 From tiles. 01:49:36 Yeah, so it's been standard that people "borrow" art from roguelikes that have a bigger following. 01:50:49 aren't most of crawl's tiles in the public domain? 01:50:53 You see Nethack tiles version art show up in paid iOS games all the time, but this one actually does use a few elements from Crawl and is charging 3 dollars on the app store for it. 01:51:06 I think there's a list of tiles that have different licenses but I can't recall where it is 01:51:08 RIght, but they're charging. I'm just offering a connection if you guys care. 01:51:13 moin 01:51:24 Zaba: Mornin ;) 01:52:20 ixtli, you were working on an ios port of crawl, right? 01:52:23 or was that somebody else 01:52:48 Yeah, I wanted to do it, but I ended up using all of my energy modularizing sdl, opengl, and sdl-type. 01:53:05 I ended up making a big contribution, but I had to change countries before I actually wrote a port to iOS xD 01:53:16 One day. One day xD 01:53:31 ixtli, it's just that, well, we've got webtiles now, and the whole interface abstraction thing is needed more than ever :P 01:53:45 lol 01:53:50 Well then. 01:53:55 Someone point me at webtiles? 01:53:55 xD 01:54:22 ixtli, https://gitorious.org/~fdiebold/crawl/fdiebolds-crawl is the code, I -think- 01:54:39 ixtli, http://tiles.crawl.develz.org is the game itself :) 01:55:14 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:55:25 That. 01:55:26 Is. 01:55:27 Awesome. 01:55:28 xD 01:55:37 ixtli, I agree fully. 01:55:39 What specifically is needed? 01:55:43 personally, I didn't look at the code, though 01:56:16 ixtli, well, I don't know what is _needed_, but what would be ideal is if all the interfaces (tiles, console, webtiles) were equally abstracted from the game itself :P 01:56:29 Yeah we were moving towards that. 01:56:34 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 01:56:42 But you should have seen how ... tightly intertwined they were to begin with. 01:56:47 at the moment there's a lot of code that isn't, and I don't know how much of such code webtiles adds 01:57:08 ixtli, I think I have---I didn't pay much attention, though :P 01:57:22 Did someone ever do that DirectX port? 01:57:22 I want someone to write webascii. I can't play tiles >.< 01:57:34 ghallberg: I'm surprised no one has done that. 01:57:41 ixtli: :) 01:57:49 webascii can be done with a terminal emulator of some sort 01:57:56 Zaba: I do see that the interface isn't entirely up to date with the crawl-tiles interface. 01:58:04 ixtli, indeed, it isn't 01:58:21 it's somewhat of a mix between tiles and console 01:58:30 Yeah I mean an abstraction layer is definitely where the project should go... that said, is Enne still around every once and a while? 01:58:39 She wrote most of the display code that I then worked on, iirc. 01:58:47 She was inbetween jobs at the time so didn't have much time to hack. 01:59:14 !seen Enne 01:59:14 I last saw enne at Sun Feb 13 01:42:13 2011 UTC (19w 2d 5h 17m 1s ago) parting ##crawl-dev with message chanpart. 01:59:19 that's a no 02:00:04 Heh yeah. 02:00:05 Hmm. 02:00:21 I assume then that there hasn't been much work on the display layer. 02:00:22 Hmm. 02:03:29 i don't need webascii, only instead of the graphic tiles, i'd need asciified tiles 02:03:53 ixtli, would you be willing/able to maintain the tiles code, or at least fix some bugs? 02:03:57 ixtli, I think it needs that 02:04:10 bhaak: That is how it should work. 02:04:28 Zaba: Unfortunately I'm starting work at a startup next week, so I couldn't commit to that right at the moment. 02:04:31 ixtli: but as far as i understand crawl's tiles, it's not as easy as swapping out a single image (or a single image per monster) to do it 02:04:44 I'll be sure to hang around here more often, though. 02:04:51 Try to slowly get back into it :) 02:05:26 !seen neunon 02:05:26 I last saw neunon at Mon Jun 27 07:13:21 2011 UTC (23h 52m 5s ago) quitting with message Read error: Connection reset by peer. 02:05:33 ixtli, it's just that I don't think there's any active maintainer of tiles at the moment :/ 02:05:40 Really. 02:05:53 That's sorta sad. 02:06:08 Who was the one working on the new interface back then? 02:06:18 bhaak: Didn't you make a menu system or something? 02:06:52 ixtli: i haven't done zip for crawl besides trying to lure away female developers :) 02:07:07 Hahahaha. 02:07:24 i won't contribute to crawl as long as i'm still doing nethacky stuff ... i only have so much free time :) 02:07:53 Yeah. 02:12:46 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:13:42 -!- cesium has joined ##crawl-dev 02:14:15 CAO just upgraded git, but wouldn't transfer my save :-( I guess it's screwed? 02:14:15 cesium: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 02:16:05 (more accurately - it did transfer, but I get new game prompt now...) 02:16:30 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 02:17:47 strange, I thought there weren't any save compatibility breakages in a while 02:18:01 but then, I've no idea how old cao's git build used to be 02:18:04 CAO's trunk update seems a little messed up in other ways... the bots aren't reporting games in it 02:18:13 hm 02:18:14 Backup option did made a save - https://crawl.akrasiac.org/saves/dumps/Shiren-crawl-git-bec177b566-110628-0315.tar.bz2 02:18:28 so I think some directory might be off, so maybe it isn't actually finding it when the time comes to convert it 02:18:35 hi 02:19:24 hmm.. old version was 0.9.0-a0-305-g199e348 02:19:53 that's certainly newer than the last major version bump 02:19:56 so I bet it's something else 02:20:04 like what elliptic says 02:20:12 probably.. 02:20:24 also, does anyone know why CDO didn't update as usual 2 hours ago? 02:27:10 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:32:53 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 02:45:49 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:46:03 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 02:48:48 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:52:13 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:52:32 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:16:57 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:20:22 03elliptic * r956394b91d80 10/crawl-ref/source/viewmap.cc: Make show_map() more consistent. 03:20:57 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 03:34:33 hi dpeg! 03:41:36 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 03:42:36 Hi! 03:42:59 greensnark wrote me... he is extremely busy, but will try to set up CAO documentation during the weekend. 03:47:25 !seen elly 03:47:25 I last saw elly at Tue Jun 7 21:18:39 2011 UTC (2w 6d 11h 28m 46s ago) quitting with message Remote host closed the connection. 03:54:19 dpeg: would be nice to beat out of him some hints how to deal with Mac builds, too 03:54:43 like, what that whole "app bundle" thing is 03:55:52 kilobyte: should've known yesterday 03:56:07 he will react during the weekend, let us ask him then 03:58:02 oh, I see there are updated hackintosh ports. My setup uses an old version (don't remember which) and can't be upgraded to recent XCode. 03:58:24 but then, I heard they dropped support for ppc compilation... 03:58:55 I guess some Mac person might know more without wasting several hours to find this out 04:00:01 kilobyte: I've been thinking about the change to tornado's range. I think with the progressive range, we can extend the max range to 6. something like (2/3/4/5/6/6) for a 6 turns tornado. 04:00:57 -!- mumra has quit [] 04:03:14 galehar: what do you mean by "range 2"? 04:03:37 remember, there is no such thing as a "turn" 04:04:23 start the tornado with a range of 2, then increase its range every 10 aut 04:04:55 that's what we agreed on yesterday, right? 04:05:04 also, duration needs to be somewhat randomized. Currently, you can calculate that it will last, say, 55 aut, and adjust your timing so that the next recast can be done at the best moment 04:05:58 about that, I'd rather have a short cooldown timer 04:05:59 I did not agree to "turns", since there are no turns unless you play an Eronarized game with every action taking the same time 04:06:17 sorry for confusion, I think I explained it better in the c-r-d mail 04:07:04 galehar means aut 04:08:18 a possible way: there is some function that describes radius-by-time, and every turn the damage done is an integral of part of the square included in a radius for the duration of that turn 04:09:11 so a non-hasted human who does a 10 aut action could have those 10 aut turns exactly, but in the late game, this rarely is the case 04:09:13 The cooldown could be set up very naturally by having some (1x1 size) clouds stay... and you can only re-cast when they disappear. Not sure if they should be called cumulus :) 04:09:31 so it gives partial damage to cells at the edge of the radius? 04:10:02 dpeg: that's what I proposed. tornado clouds last 2 or 3 turns. I said 3 turns cooldown timer. 04:10:15 yes, otherwise you promote tailoring your speed to some certain points 04:10:16 which is 30 aut, I'm aware. 04:10:44 galehar: good 04:10:52 galehar: the clouds are broken... try playing a CB char, or be slowed 04:11:13 kilobyte: if we do it right for Tornado, we'll know how to repair the cloud spells. 04:11:20 but the clouds are just cosmetic anyway 04:11:59 (I assume kilobyte is talking about Freezing etc. Cloud.) 04:12:02 so start with a range of 2, increase the range by 1 every 10 aut, and do some fractional damage for shorter turns. 04:12:12 I mean, tornado clouds, not spells... the cloud code doesn't have a means to "not delete this cloud until..." 04:12:46 dpeg: no. Could you make a Cheibriados char, wear max ponderous, and cast tornado? 04:13:31 then move around while it lasts 04:13:42 not really right now, setting up an exam =) 04:14:51 I don't understant the problem. tornado clouds last either 20 aut or 30 aut. We set up the cooldown timer at 30 aut. Doesn't matter your speed. 04:15:57 galehar: currently clouds are created only every turn 04:17:39 and "turn" is a broken concept here... a naga of Cheibriados on a mummy level is not unlikely to hit 84 aut delay 04:18:20 you mean created or updated? 04:18:37 (slowed and drained in a single stat, while moving) 04:18:38 both 04:18:38 and every turn meaning every player turn, not game turn right? 04:19:32 not sure what you mean by "game turn" 04:19:43 10 aut 04:19:51 player turn, whatever your speed 04:20:06 the game turn is same as player turn... nothing can happen more frequently than once per player turn, you can at most repeat an action several times 04:20:55 I mean game turn as BASELINE_DELAY. the absolute turn which doesn't depend on speed. 04:21:05 this could be codeable with an event queue, but that would be a big overhaul of the current system 04:21:07 the one shown when you enable show_game_turn 04:21:32 it has no meaning other than display and being default length of a turn 04:22:41 well, several effects have their length depending on game turns not player turns 04:24:07 all things related to tornado need to be mesured in game turns or aut. They don't depend on player speed. If you're fast, it will take more player turns for the range to grow to its maximum. 04:24:50 currently, tornado last a fixed number of game turns (6 at power 120) which is a variable number of player turns. 04:25:28 so, when I'm saying such and such last x turns, I mean x * 10 aut. 04:26:13 it lasts 40 + power/6 aut, rather than 60 04:26:43 the game doesn't have any turns other than player ones 04:27:01 the difference is subtle but in some cases important 04:28:09 I just find it convenient to call game turns something that lasts 10 aut. I think it's intuitive, but maybe that's just me. 04:28:24 three systems: player turns, fixed game turns (not used by Crawl), event queue, all produce different results 04:28:42 we can use aut if you prefer. This should avoid confusion. 04:28:59 re 04:29:03 it's not just about naming, there is a difference in ordering of events 04:29:30 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 04:31:35 well, let's say we add a cooldown timer of 30 aut to tornado. What's the problem with slow movement? Everybody has to wait the same number of aut. 04:32:18 for example: you did an action that takes 84 aut. There is tornado going on, and there are two monsters, one speed 12, one speed 18. 04:32:58 player turn system: your move, tornado dur=84, monster A moves 10 times, then monster B 15 times. 04:33:17 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:34:03 an event queue system: monster B moves once, monster A moves once, a 10 aut chunk of tornado, monster B, monster A, monster B again, tornado, monster A, ... 04:34:58 so maybe it will die after 5 moves instead of attacking you 10 times and dying. I see what you mean. 04:35:54 the system is not perfect, and as its quircks at low speed. However, I'm not sure I see how it's related to any of the changes proposed. 04:38:02 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 04:41:08 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53:03 sorry, work, will talk later. My point is that clouds are too gameable. You can trivially get a 5 aut action always, and a 6 aut one for most AE. 04:54:15 so this should call for a longer term rewrite of the time system? 04:55:53 mostly, yes 04:55:57 sounds like a pretty big rewrite. 04:56:21 not that big actually, but certainly not for 0.9 04:56:36 ok 04:56:52 we'll talk later about tornado's changes when you have the time. 04:57:00 actors would say "my action took 17 aut, please let me act again after that time" 04:58:29 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 04:58:35 instead of "the player took 20 aut to move, my speed is 16 -- I got 32 energy points, so I can move thrice in a row" 05:02:04 yes, I understand the problem better now, thanks for explaining. 05:02:20 indeed, an event queue system would be a great fix. 05:02:23 -!- edlothiol has left ##crawl-dev 05:02:27 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:04:50 -!- evilmike has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:06:10 I believe this was never an issue until Chei came along. Before that, slow was strictly bad. 05:29:31 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:38:13 03galehar * r00e617c883d5 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Fix spiders unable to swap place over deep water. 05:38:17 03galehar * r39ab63af6e94 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Fix spiders sometimes drowning themselves (#3830). 05:38:17 03galehar * ree1b58cc0d83 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Confused high intelligent monsters don't move if they are next to a deadly cell. 05:38:17 03galehar * r97a90aa546f0 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-data.h: Swap the ranges of bolt of fire and bolt of cold. 05:38:17 03galehar * r20e7c3e20060 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-data.h: Swap the range of throw flame and throw frost. 05:38:17 03galehar * r85c4559d5d2c 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc: Simplify. 05:38:17 03galehar * r1fb5ae23b3c9 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-data.h: Revert "Make Tornado Conj/Air again." 05:38:39 galehar: such intelligent monsters = norris, etc? 05:38:46 I thought kilobyte didn't want it non-conj/air? 05:39:28 he finally agreed to trying it pure air yesterday. 05:41:09 yes, most uniques are of high intelligence. 05:41:10 galehar_: Ijyb? 05:41:10 He should be stupid. 05:41:10 And the trolls. 05:41:10 so gone are the days of mephitic-ing uniques into deep water 05:41:10 ijyb has only normal intelligence 05:41:11 louise,nikola, etc 05:41:11 Pacra: yes, that's the point 05:41:11 Ok, cool. 05:41:11 yes, I'm just pointing out the obvious O:] 05:41:11 who asked for a meph nerf yesterday? Here is one :) 05:41:17 Totally unrelated and should probably be in ##crawl, but I love chopping up sigmund and eating him. 05:41:28 I wish Grinder dropped a corpse aswell :( 05:41:37 ghallberg: still interested in coding us some patches? 05:41:44 FR: Uniques always drop bodies. DO YOU CAN EAT THEM! 05:41:45 You mean impgrinder never comes into ##crawl these days? what a pity? :) 05:41:52 dpeg put a lot of implementables on mantis yesterday 05:42:02 galehar_: Interested, but stuck with alot of work and a 3 weeks old baby :/ 05:42:04 (why, *yes*, I did name a crawl unique after an annoying ##crawl troll) 05:42:06 galehar: are centaurs of high intelligence? 05:42:16 ghallberg: oh, congrats :) 05:42:23 this seems also like a fedhas nerf of sorts 05:42:27 galehar_: Thanks :) 05:42:38 Pacra: no, centaur have normal intelligence 05:42:53 But my 4 year old is of to finland for a weeks o I might be able to find time for some smaller patches now. 05:43:02 for a month... 05:43:10 http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h 05:43:23 if you want to check the intelligence of a monster yourself :) 05:43:29 Gonna try to finish off "drop last" :D 05:43:40 ghallberg: you started it? good. 05:43:47 you've got 2 weeks to finish it :) 05:44:09 you should put a comment on the mantis implementable that you're working on it. 05:45:16 galehar_: I'll hit upa comment there, only did some preliminiary work but it shouldn't be too hard I think. 05:45:22 galehar: thanks! 05:46:30 ghallberg: yes, it should be quite easy to implement. 05:51:03 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:13:32 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:14:12 Hi Marvin! 06:15:30 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:16:00 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:16:26 hey 06:16:56 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 06:17:57 MarvinPA: what do you think about a little damage boost to fireball? 06:18:46 just caught up with the backlog a minute ago, i think it'd be reasonable enough 06:19:13 like elliptic said though, it's definitely a good spell! underappreciated, but when you give it a go it turns out to be very useful 06:19:52 ok 06:19:52 but yeah, a slight boost sounds fine 06:19:59 it does :) 06:20:07 could you do it? 06:20:57 sure, i'll take a look 06:21:09 thanks 06:22:58 any comment on the +3 HP? 06:24:41 well i've never been good at really taking advantage of the movement system and pillar dancing loads on d:1, i guess that's why i don't have many streak wins :P 06:25:22 ok :) 06:25:34 i guess it gives us room to make the midgame harder though :P 06:25:48 MarvinPA: a little boost, starting with knocking it down two levels 06:26:24 or a single level, but together with a damage boost 06:26:36 kilobyte: elliptic said it would be OP if we just make it L5. 06:26:52 what? yeah, it would be 06:27:23 6->5? From my calculations it looks not OP on L4. 06:27:55 if you mean your calculations on the wiki, you didn't factor in the fact that fireball never misses for a start 06:28:02 let me guess. fireball is a niche spell at level 6 06:29:40 st_: 60% damage of bolt of fire, has serious use restrictions (not when surrounded, not in close range unless in open) 06:30:06 kilobyte: but MarvinPA is right, the 100% accuracy is a big factor 06:31:06 considering it has the damage dice as throw icicle but also never misses and can hit up to 8 things at once i'm not sure how you can possibly suggest it would be balanced at level 4 06:31:41 I'm comparing with bolt of fire, not icicle 06:31:50 also, if balance needs to be adjusted, I think it's better to raise damage than lower its level. 06:32:10 it might indeed be too good for L4 06:32:19 It's fine to have it at L6. 06:33:46 let's be conservative and not go from 0.8 with crazy powerful earth magic (mostly my fault) to 0.9 with crazy powerful fire magic :P 06:34:43 MarvinPA: yeah, I noticed that when you do some buffs, you sometimes overdo a bit. 06:34:57 buff fireball damage *a bit* 06:35:00 :) 06:35:11 heh, i shall be extra careful 06:35:50 MarvinPA: what do you think about the proposed nerf to tornado? Start with radius 2 and increase by 1 every 10 aut up to 6 (2/3/4/5/6/6) 06:35:53 comparing bolt and ball, bolt is usable in far more cases 06:36:08 however, here's an alternate idea: what about a bigger radius with big power? 06:36:31 gradually increasing radius (of tornado, that is) sounds good to me, yeah 06:36:40 kilobyte: that doesn't sound like a little buff. 06:36:48 would encourage staying close to things, as well 06:37:36 galehar_: please be precise -- do you mean radius 2 at the middle of 10 aut turn one, or at the end (ie, halved damage during that turn)? 06:38:44 right. how about it starts at 1 at t=0. increase to 2 at t=10 aut. 06:38:46 fire{bolt,ball}: there's a lot of ground to reach parity to a better spell if starting point is 60% damage 06:39:25 galehar_: ok, so at radius 1 it does full damage, at radius 2 half, for the first turn of an unhasted human 06:39:55 kilobyte: yes 06:40:15 due: do you know if HTML escapes (<, ', etc) in the manual are an artifact of dokuwiki, or a part of reST? 06:41:49 Gameplay balancing: lethal starting vaults (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4189) by Mental Mouse 06:42:18 kilobyte: they must be doku -- reST itself doesn't allow HTML escapes without fancy work. 06:42:37 there are no lethal starting vaults 06:42:48 and if they exist, then they always get the right players 06:43:23 A giant amoeba on D:1 seems unkind. 06:43:27 dpeg: The Jelly eating the warning-door sounds pretty bad. 06:43:36 due: That's not a starting vault though? 06:43:50 ghallberg: I've no idea. 06:44:01 Just an annoying altar vault. 06:44:20 I like the first vault. 06:44:23 The jelly makes it interesting. :) 06:44:43 the giant amoeba one looks like that temple entry vault where the monsters can't actually get out 06:45:50 yeah, it is 06:46:14 just two d:1 monsters behind a door, seems fine to me 06:47:26 galehar_: I like that you "nailed" the falling spiders bug -- did you fix it by nailing tthem to the wall? ;) 06:47:52 <3 06:48:24 ghallberg: come on, bad things happen 06:48:48 this vault is okay, have a look at it 06:49:04 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:49:27 dpeg: adding a door lock to stop the jellies pathfinding through is a possibiliy 06:51:03 that one has killed me once or twice but it's not like you can't ever survive it, there's a staircase down 06:51:42 Is skald not inherently plural? 06:51:58 Apparently not. 06:52:01 skalds sounds weird. 06:52:47 that's what wiktionary says. 06:52:52 yeah 06:53:08 also, they should have a steam spell to scald people with ;) 06:53:21 jellies shouldn't eat doors with warning. 06:54:39 there's a lua thingy for stopping jellies eating doors, isn't there? 06:54:45 yes 06:54:52 that's why i said door lock 06:57:01 Can players affect monster behavior like that with lua on public servers? 06:57:16 -!- galehar_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:57:59 no, it's a lua marker for doors that's defined in the vault file 06:58:31 Ah. Thanks. 06:59:21 it's door_restrict, i think 07:00:47 MarvinPA: dpeg: True, it's just dangerous not deadly :) 07:01:48 crawl's default state is dangerous 07:03:39 due: En skald, flera skalder :P 07:03:46 re: plural 07:13:03 Heh. 07:13:49 Harald just wrote to me that he cannot take care of the food reform. That's another Implementable then, I guess. 07:14:22 Let's see if I get feedback from RangerC (DG) and nrook (prices). 07:14:23 That's one I would love to do, but it's a pretty big one. 07:14:34 DG? 07:15:23 demigod 07:15:34 btw, it's Dg nowadays ;) 07:16:03 We need demijohn as well. 07:16:14 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:demigod 07:26:40 nerfing low levels of carni makes sense, making herbi restrict eating chunks unless starving would bring nasty issues 07:26:59 like what we had with berserk and "hungry", just wider in scope 07:35:48 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:40:09 galehar: Should I change the status on the mantis issue? To Acknowledged maybe? 07:41:38 or assigned 07:43:17 kilobyte: true. we should try something else for herbivore. 07:47:10 can see unseen horror without SInv (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4190) by ortoslon 07:49:14 galehar: Can't set it to assigned I think... 07:52:35 yeah, only devs can. I can't even assign it to you. Doesn't matter. acknowledge and comment is fine. 07:52:53 Done and done 07:53:50 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 07:59:47 Isn't the herbivore restriction just that you can eat chunks later (higher hunger level)? 08:01:35 dpeg: no, you get less nutrition from food 08:01:47 and on level 3 you can't eat chunks at all 08:03:23 Vintermann's proposal make it so you need to be very hungry to eat chunks at herb 1, near starving at herb 2 and not at all at herb 3 08:03:33 yes, that is what I meant 08:03:46 for compensation, veggies should give more nutrition 08:03:56 they do 08:03:59 yes 08:04:27 almost all food you eat is chunks, though 08:05:14 getting Herb 3 from mutation is a freak case... it should be somewhat late in the game, and by then, you can adapt 08:06:53 you are screwed if you get it early, but you'd need to try really hard 08:07:11 yes, I think the same 08:07:21 you can also get screwed by just not finding any food 08:07:23 and so many mutations can screw you... like even a single level of berserkitis for some chars 08:07:30 this happens sometimes, and occurs probably more often 08:09:03 you don't get chunks in Crypt, Pan, Hells and Tomb anyway 08:10:09 yes, but by then you will have had access to Hive 08:10:27 not finding any food items on D:1-5 while having bad luck with the corpses happens occasionally 08:12:11 btw, about berserkitis, it could trigger less often. Especially at level 1. 08:12:44 getting screwed by a L3 mutation is ok, but at L1 it shouldn't be so harsh. 08:13:13 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 08:16:17 I agree 08:30:46 perhaps it could depend on race, too? 08:31:12 innate rageability? 08:32:18 yeah... for most races, berserkitis is nasty, but not a reason to quit or starve immediately 08:32:56 only for a spriggan it's a death sentence if you lack clarity or are a pure conjurer 08:33:18 s/are/are not/ 08:33:45 don't people get killed by the slowness when it triggers at a bad time, rather than starving? 08:33:47 scratch that, KISS. Way less often for other races would work. 08:34:13 both, although slowness is easy to overcome by resting a lot 08:37:32 chance to go berserk per attack is mut_level * 10 - 5 in 100. so 5% at L1, 15% at L2, 25% at L3. 08:39:11 1%, 5%, 15% ? 08:39:47 or 1 5 10 08:40:43 1 is too little imo 08:40:49 3 6 10? 08:41:17 3 6 9 then, easier to calculate :) 08:43:16 linear growth is not good, not pronounced enough 08:43:18 imo 08:43:38 3, 6, 12 perhaps 08:44:13 but reducing the 5 was most pressing, I thought -- 1 does that better than 3 :) 08:44:22 1 would cause berserk once in several fights already 08:44:42 Yeah, 3% adds up when attacking 5 times/fight 08:44:43 bear in mind you hit stuff a lot, yeah 08:44:59 s/5/10? 08:49:44 with 10 attacks/figth 1% gives 10.5% chance of berserk 08:49:50 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 08:52:22 of course, with berserkitis, you're free to choose a heavy weapon, and a launcher, in order to minimise the attacks 08:52:38 I get 9.6% but anyway (0.99^10 = 0.904) 08:53:04 galehar: is suck at math :) 08:53:40 differences to a "heavy weapon" are quite small, and you'll need a lot more hits to kill something with a weapon you're not proficient with 08:54:17 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:54:57 hrm, my word wrapping sucks 08:55:13 http://sprunge.us/DaYI -- does it look too ugly to live? 08:55:25 < is unwrapped, > is wrapped 08:56:38 I really need to file a bugreport for trap-removal... 08:56:50 WHY doesn't ^H work? 08:58:03 online? 08:59:09 kilobyte: my point was about going for a bigger than you'd usually do, but the launcher will matter more, of course 08:59:09 anyone uses/develops the linux version here? 08:59:20 so are we fine with 1, 3, 10? 08:59:36 galehar: Yeah, unrecognized commad. Something with terminal? 09:00:08 03dolorous * r4de6b958ad9c 10/crawl-ref/source/itemprop.cc: Fix weapon EV bonus for sacred scourges: it's now the same as whips/demon whips. 09:03:21 1, 3, 10 sounds preferable 09:03:32 differentiates the mutation levels much more 09:04:10 currently there's barely a difference if you fight with level 1 vs level 2 or 3 09:04:37 ghallberg: I don't think ctr+key and shift + key work online. Use / + key. or * + key. Or maybe others can help you better than I :) 09:04:39 i.e. in a prolonged fight with a group of mobs, you'll be zerked! 09:05:58 3^(mut_level - 1) = 1, 3, 9 09:06:25 galehar: also fine 09:10:17 alternatively it could be calculated based on tension 09:10:31 rather than a fixed chance 09:14:47 no, scummable 09:17:17 galehar: All the other (vim-)directionkeys work with ctrl, except for H, very odd :D 09:17:59 putty? 09:18:01 oh 09:18:04 i was thinking too about a rage meter, ie you need to accumulate rage to zerk 09:18:13 also rage based on damage taken 09:19:39 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 09:20:20 ghallberg: did you disable application keypad mode? 09:21:14 galehar: I found the reason ^H is interpreted as backspace by linux terminals. 09:22:22 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:36:04 -!- ghallberg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:44:06 03dolorous * r286b85380c6d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (itemprop.cc ng-setup.cc): Clean up range_skill() a bit. 09:50:15 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:50:32 -!- ghallberg has joined ##crawl-dev 09:52:02 -!- petete has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00:42 kilobyte: yes, \ screen show tiles. We can start with that and add a special menu (based on this one?) after. 10:02:12 kilobyte: your encounter with Ijyb looks like a case of extreme bad luck. I tested in wizmode and the 1/5 special case seemed to work fine. Monster used the poly other wand much less. 10:05:42 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:11 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 10:13:03 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:18:07 03dolorous * r827f9869cdb8 10/crawl-ref/source/ (fight.cc itemprop.cc itemprop.h): Add utility function is_whip_type(), and use it for all whip special cases. 10:19:20 DeeD (L27 DEAE) ASSERT(!actor_at(newpos)) in 'spl-tornado.cc' at line 348 failed. (Slime:6) 10:28:40 what about the angry randart property? It gives 5% chance, same as mut level 1. 10:28:57 I'm thinking of reducing it to 3% (same as new mut level 2) 10:37:05 sounds good. 10:37:53 arts like Trog's Wrath and Jihad should probably keep their percentages 10:38:04 but i don't know if that's been specifically coded for them 10:39:05 galehar: even 1% is a lot due to how many times you have to swing in a fight 10:39:38 a lot of people just won't use *rage items unless they have clarity, currently 10:40:49 Pacra: no, they just have the normal angry property. They are unrandart, not fixedart (I think). 10:40:57 Jihad is a normal one 10:41:04 and from TSO, not Trog 10:41:21 Eronarn: so, you're saying to reduce it to 1%, just like the mut? 10:42:00 galehar: I tried such fights against Ijyb a number of times, and they consistently take that long 10:42:11 a chainmail or better is a lot on D:2 10:42:18 galehar: that is what i would do, yes... except i could swear wrath of trog is hardcoded 10:42:21 ??wrath of trog 10:42:21 wrath of trog[1/1]: fixedart +3, +11 battleaxe, makes you rage (50% of the time!) when you attack. Not to be confused with {trog wrath}, a far more terrifying phenomenon. Shows up as a red "bloodstained battleaxe", but bloodstained battleaxes can also be randarts. Possibly even red ones. Also, Trog won't ever gift it. Antimagic in 0.8. 10:42:28 yeah, 50%...? 10:43:05 ie, it's terrible to use 10:43:26 perhaps wrath of trog should extend berserk when you kill stuff with it 10:43:38 maybe it should provide a constant berserk effect while wielded 10:43:40 so that it's usable for non-trogs, and actually interesting for trogs 10:43:57 a mummy of mine used it for quite a bit of time before upgrade, though... but that's a rare case 10:45:12 Eronarn: you mean, so berserk would typically last the whole fight unless you move? 10:45:47 kilobyte: depends on the numbers used 10:46:14 if it's going to berserk you on 50% of hits, thoguh, it should probably have some reason to make you want to use it other than 'my character can't go berserk' 10:47:11 we can also tone it down like I'm doing for the mutation. 15%? 10:47:33 galehar: per-hit percentages add up really, really fast anyways so that's not going to change that much 10:48:59 Well, it will still be worse than berserkitis 3. But 50% seems a bit silly. 10:49:37 reducing it is fine, don't get me wrong, just that it won't actually address why people don't use it often 10:50:53 er 10:51:08 why are TSO worshippers allowed to use the spell Summon Ugly Things 10:51:44 they're apparently allowed to use summon scorps too 10:52:02 The Shining One frowns upon the use of this spell. 10:52:03 nope 10:52:05 just checked 10:52:07 I haven't been following this berserkitis discussion, but reducing the berserk chance on wrath of trog from 50% to 15% sounds to me like it actually would make it less useful 10:52:18 hmm, whoever said that yesterday is wrong then i guess 10:52:23 since one of the uses for it currently is on melee chars who don't have a berserk source 10:52:46 yes, keeping those percentages should be fine 10:52:52 (as a swap) 10:52:53 keeps the artefact's utility intact 10:53:04 elliptic: good point 10:53:19 it's a rare randart, too 10:53:51 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 10:54:05 elliptic: what about reducing the frequency at which the mutation triggers? 10:54:12 it's 5% / 15% / 25% 10:54:26 I'm changing it to 1% / 3% / 9% 10:55:11 galehar: sounds all right to me, is the idea just to make the mutation more bearable in the (rare) case where you get it with no clarity or stasis or cure mutation? 10:55:37 elliptic: yes 10:55:52 it's considered to be the worst one for many chars 10:56:00 yeah, it's pretty brutal on non-caster spriggans 10:56:56 I've literally never gotten berserkitis without having clarity or stasis or cure mutation 10:57:07 but I don't mind nerfing it 10:57:30 and also to make the mutation level more significant. Currently, level 1 or 3 are not that different, it will still trigger in most fights. 10:57:37 elliptic: that's because you are a good player 10:58:51 pacra: you mean it is because I don't drink-ID potions recklessly :) 10:59:34 galehar: sounds reasonable, sure 11:00:20 by the way, about uncontrolled berserk... currently being very hungry or nearly starving gives immunity to it 11:00:58 that actually seems kind of cool 11:01:19 elliptic: kilobyte got it early as a gift from Ijyb :) http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/KiloByte/morgue-KiloByte-20110626-093437.txt 11:01:23 it feels rather strange to me personally 11:01:54 but it would starve you to death if it triggered. 11:02:34 galehar: right, wand of poly is one of the few unavoidable ways of getting mutations early on and should likely be nerfed anyway if it hasn't yet... 11:03:27 kilobyte proposed to outright prevent monsters from using it. Seems a bit too much. 11:03:30 galehar: I was thinking of having it place you at the top end of starving when it triggers, and exhausted + slowed as usual 11:03:44 but maybe this isn't necessary 11:03:59 elliptic: that sounds good. 11:04:01 i'd rather see it just not be a bad mutation wand 11:04:06 03dolorous * ref153548946a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (item_use.cc mon-stuff.cc): Add indentation fixes. 11:04:19 03dolorous * r8ce117226ed8 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-stuff.cc monster.cc): Fix two corner cases where invisibility could be removed from M_INVIS monsters. 11:04:41 about the wand, monsters zap it less often than normal ones. They can still cripple you if you are really unlucky. 11:04:41 galehar: preventing monsters from using it doesn't really sound like too much to me... we already arbitrarily forbid monsters from using wands of fireball, after all 11:05:34 but getting a couple of early bad mutations can be interesting. 11:05:39 it can, yeah 11:06:05 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:06:30 monsters zap them 1/5 times normal wands. We can make it 1/10. 11:06:52 what if polymorph other were something like: 1/3 transmut miscast, 1/3 bad form, 1/3 ??? 11:07:06 ??transmutation miscast 11:07:06 transmutations miscast[1/1]: By severity: 1: 1-11 damage or random uselessness. 2: 3-25 damage, 0-18 glow, paralysis, or confusion. 3: 3-20 dmg AND 0-34 glow, 5-27 dmg AND delete mutation, 5-27 dmg AND 1-2 bad mutations. 11:07:22 those are pretty deadly after severity 1 11:08:41 and we have a single bad form which I don't think we should reuse for this purpose. 11:09:11 we'd need multiple bad forms, yeah - but i don't think that's a problem necessarily, there's ideas out there 11:09:32 even for some that are bad, but interesting (like oklob: you can't run away, but it might actually make you better at fighting) 11:10:31 galehar: I had no idea that monsters zap polymorph 1/5 as often as other wands, fwiw... so I don't know how much reducing that to 1/10 would help 11:11:04 the usual situation is that the monster zaps polymorph at you once and then you know it has it and disable or kill it quickly 11:11:36 so that initial mutation would still be there 11:12:06 I'd say the current behavior isn't really a problem, especially with 1% berserkitis 11:12:34 the monster/player polymorph asymmetry bothers me more 11:13:17 Tile Request: inner flame (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4191) by galehar 11:13:25 polymorphing you into a random bad form sounds fun. But there's work to implement it. 11:13:27 bad mutations for monsters are doable: like Zin effects: blindness, muteness, etc 11:13:57 kilobyte: the problem with bad mutations for monsters is that it can be really hard to make them noteworthy / noticeable 11:14:48 that's why they'd have to do much more than player ones 11:15:04 well, there's also interface considerations 11:15:11 blindness and muteness are examples which can work well 11:15:37 blindness is pretty bad right now :P 11:15:48 it's just permainvis of monsters/players to the thing 11:17:07 though i do think a player blindness mutation could be interesting / possibly infuriating :) 11:18:04 kilobyte: by the way, any idea why CDO didn't update last night as it usually does? 11:18:21 elliptic: it doesn't do it daily 11:18:31 oh, it just does it some days? 11:18:48 I've noticed it updating at 0500 UTC on a lot of days and just assumed 11:19:00 it's like 3 days a week or something 11:19:01 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:19:30 from the cronjob: Jun 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, 22, 24, 25, 26, 27 11:19:43 so five days a week 11:19:48 okay, thanks 11:20:08 not sure what is the rule 11:20:46 but if you need an update, tell that to me, due, greensnark or Nap King 11:21:08 all days except tuesday and thursday is what it looks like 11:24:06 03dolorous * ra35fd431d194 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Fix compilation (oops). 11:24:54 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:27:53 ps can we eliminate hopr[beogh] and add messiah. thanks in advance. 11:34:16 by the way, stair and portal mimics really need to be disabled again before 0.9 release 11:34:29 since they are in the same state they were in before 0.8 release 11:35:35 stairs to crypt on v:5 after already having cleared crypt, portals without any vault or announcement... 11:38:42 disable all mimics imo 11:46:06 03dolorous * r52086248bd9c 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Fix temporarily invisible monsters keeping invisibility after polymorph. 12:00:39 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 12:17:03 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:21:11 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 12:34:38 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:03:53 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:05:15 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:02 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:15:43 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:20:00 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 13:26:26 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 13:29:29 nrook: Hi! 13:30:44 Hi! 13:30:55 I got your email, and got on here :) 13:32:01 nice 13:32:11 what do you think? shall we plunder shopping.cc? 13:32:55 alright! 13:33:04 is there any better table of values beyond shopping.cc itself? 13:33:32 no, I don't think so 13:34:15 as far as I understand, there are three things to do: base prices (from shopping.cc); the surcharges (e.g. for wand charges); the prices for bad items need thought 13:34:57 that's good, because it implies that we won't be touching artefact prices, and I have no idea what to do there :) 13:35:34 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 13:35:51 ah right, another one :) I think they're okay, though. 13:36:32 i think artefact prices are calculated from the base type prices with a bunch of modifiers, so at least tweaking those in whichever direction seems sensible would probably help the artefacts too 13:36:53 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:36:56 MarvinPA: yes 13:37:07 i briefly looked into the price stuff but never got around to seriously having a shot at it, glad to see someone has volunteered :P 13:37:09 unrands seem to get ridiculous prices for some reason a lot of the time 13:37:12 at least unrand weapons 13:37:34 ??sword of jihad[2] 13:37:34 sword of jihad[2/2]: Seen in a shop for 32544 gold. 13:37:55 I never really liked the extreme bargains in antique shops (boots of running for 20 gold), but that may be a larger change. 13:39:27 looking at wands, it looks like wand surcharges are just a fixed proportional increase over the base price 13:39:57 this seems wrong---a wand of healing (5) is not that much more valuable than a wand of healing (0) 13:40:01 dpeg: is it any different than finding the boots on the ground? 13:40:26 Wensley: yes, more tedious 13:40:28 nrook: the added value is about two scrolls of recharging 13:40:40 dpeg: people love finding sweet deals in shops, it is a sublime joy! 13:40:44 nrook: I disagree -- scrolls of rechering are finite and valuable 13:40:58 Wensley: they can go to their local supermarket for that joy 13:41:03 :P 13:41:59 wand charges should be priced according to how scrolls of recharging are priced & how scrolls of recharging affect that kind of wand 13:42:03 on the other hand, no one would ever want a magic dart wand (0), but one with five charges would be worth at least something 13:42:04 the wand of healing is a slightly unique case since the base item is so valuable there 13:42:40 basically, flat cost + (charges given per recharge scroll * cost of recharge scrolls) 13:42:43 dpeg: in artifact shops the boots aren't ID'd, so we can leave the boots as cheap as they are if there are many pairs of normal or bad boots at the same price 13:42:58 kind of formula 13:43:03 (except actually right, i'm too lazy to write it out) 13:43:05 Eronarn: too simple 13:43:10 think gold acquirement 13:43:38 as for boots of running... my suggestion is that we do prices for items based on two things: a flat value and a multiplier 13:43:51 MarvinPA: even so: how much is the difference between wand of cold (3) and wand of cold (9) worth? 13:43:54 so running = , say, 500 + 1.5x multiplier 13:44:45 this way, buying a ring of cold + a ring of fire + a ring of poison is a lot less than buying a ring of coldfirepoison resistance, because it not only has the flat values added together, but multipliers for having many good qualities fitting in one slot 13:45:02 dpeg: I overstate my case, but it seems clear that (price of charged wand of healing) / (price of empty wand of healing) is much lower than (price of charged cheap wand) / (price of uncharged cheap wand) 13:45:23 (conversely, we can do things like make *rage halve or even quarter total value of the item via multiplier, since it makes it so limited) 13:46:04 it's easy enough to model this by pricing wands per charge, and giving a few "nice" wands fixed bonuses 13:46:22 Eronarn: yes 13:46:34 nrook: I think it is good if charges are costly 13:46:42 makes matters more interesting for the buyer 13:47:43 oh, btw, dpeg - one of the students at my program is from germany! apparently the school is well-known there among political scientists 13:48:11 dpeg: we don't want a wand of tele (1) to be cheap, though 13:48:39 players always have way too much gold in the endgame unless they're doing zigs, raising prices should be fine. it can be hard for early characters to afford that one thing they really want, but as long as they can choose to do orc for gold I think it's a good risk/reward situation 13:48:56 nrook: the formula i posted handles this... you can make a wand of magic darts be worth 10 GP or something, and healing 500 GP 13:49:00 Eronarn: I hope he is nice 13:49:13 and then magic dart charges will also be very cheap because you get many recharges out of one scroll 13:49:17 nrook: no! We want the base wand to be expensive and the charges as well! 13:49:52 dpeg: yes, very. she actually - wants to start a cookie night among our cohort, apparently :) 13:50:06 wands of healing could be less expensive if their power was determined by evoc skill 13:50:30 dpeg: yes, I don't think scaling based solely on ?recharge price is appropriate (although we could just make ?recharge expensive) 13:50:54 Wensley: I don't want to get into actually changing non-price mechanics here 13:51:02 okay :) 13:51:18 it is weird that /healing doesn't scale with evoc, but that's a different issue 13:51:27 nrook: okay, one of us needs to start by going through shopping.cc and finding the stinkers :) 13:52:18 scaling based on recharge price makes the most sense because that's what you are actually paying for (a 0 charge wand with an already-read amount of recharge scrolls) 13:52:39 if it charges the same as a recharge scroll this is actually worse for the player because they can't use that recharge scroll on anything else 13:52:58 Eronarn: not quite, since you don't need to blow those ?recharging, so a little more surcharge 13:53:10 recharge scrolls should be priced based on their average utility, though; not everyone has a better target for them than /fire 13:53:10 hehe, I see it the other way around 13:53:43 so if you use them on /healing, you're getting extra value 13:54:06 that, and I have no confidence in their current price, it would be easier to adjust wand charge prices and then change ?recharge based on that 13:54:11 nrook: this is somewhat taken care off by giving few charges on the good wands 13:54:12 nrook: that's well represented by the base cost of the wand, though - spend the money to be able to get that extra value from your recharge scrolls 13:55:39 on a completely different note, I actually went through potions and tried to re-tier their prices 13:55:56 one thing i could see though is scaling it a bit based on the idea that having even one charge at all means you can actually immediately use it - so the 1st charge is worth, say, twice as much as the 10th charge, even though on average charges correspond to price of recharge scrolls 13:56:09 nrook: what do you think? 13:57:17 should it be less expensive to buy two wands of healing (2) than one wand of healing (4), even though in the former case it also takes twice the weight and twice the inventory space? 13:57:31 no 13:57:33 s/less/more, you get the idea 13:57:37 two wands of healing (2) have to be way more expensive 13:57:43 why? 13:57:46 because half that price is the price of one wand of healing (2) 13:58:24 also two wands of healing (2) are better than one wand of healing (4) because you can recharge both of them high 13:58:25 and one wand of healing (2) has value far higher than half that of a wand of healing (4) 13:58:52 I suppose that makes sense, although I rarely find enough ?recharge to fully charge two wands of healing and still have enough for my other wands 13:59:06 i had one character with three healing two hasting iirc 13:59:10 zigs help 13:59:19 wensley: more likely you rarely find two wands of healing :P 13:59:27 well yes, that too :P 14:00:36 dpeg: http://pastebin.com/6qQjsgKT 14:00:48 of course, I haven't figured out actual prices for them, just pricing tiers 14:01:04 they really aren't much different from the current pricing tiers 14:01:26 I left off blood because I don't know anything about vampires 14:01:41 Wensley: ok 14:01:49 also porridge? 14:02:03 ha, looks like I left off porridge because I forgot it 14:02:07 :) 14:02:19 negative potions also aren't on there, because it's a different issue 14:02:39 (I think it makes sense to treat !mutation as negative, since people who want that effect can easily find free sources of it, like mutagenic corpses) 14:02:56 well, those were recently made a bunch rarer 14:03:31 what is the point of potions of experience? 14:04:52 if you're curious about original pricing tiers: http://pastebin.com/jcdhNuCR 14:06:03 the significant difference is that I price berserk, speed, and levitation up, and price heal wounds and restore abilities down 14:06:25 berserk is more common now, right? 14:06:34 yeah 14:06:40 is it? 14:06:45 there's no spell anymore, though 14:07:02 as common as magic and resistance and a bunch of others 14:07:25 pricing heal wounds down might be wrong, I have no confidence in that one 14:07:26 it used to be super rare, like more so than gain stat or something i think 14:07:29 I thought the plan was to also make !magic more common as well 14:07:50 nrook: pricing heal wounds down sounds very wrong to me 14:08:07 wensley: it already got made more common, back in 0.6 14:08:13 heal wounds is already pretty cheap isn't it? 14:08:19 yes 14:08:21 yes 14:08:27 i would price it up, if anything :P 14:08:30 yeah 14:08:32 well, pricing it down in terms of tiers 14:08:42 everything might get more expensive :p 14:08:42 although it should still be cheaper than a single wand of healing charge 14:08:45 probably still wrong though 14:09:50 -!- elderman has joined ##crawl-dev 14:09:52 is heal wounds really as valuable as agility, might, brilliance, though? 14:10:13 I'm confused, don't agility, might, brilliance currently cost more than heal wounds? 14:10:37 but in your list of current tiers, heal wounds is higher 14:10:45 maybe I'm misremembering though 14:10:46 either no, or I'm reading shopping.cc wrong 14:11:11 oh, no, I'm wrong 14:11:23 actually there's no reason for me not to put the real prices on the original pricing tier list, let me go do that 14:12:17 Hi all, I've got a build question and someone on ##crawl suggested I should come here. When I make the most recent git master on my Ubuntu 11.04 system, the make script looks for cassert in the wrong subdirectory, in /usr/include/c++/4.4 instead of my c++/4.5. How can I fix this? 14:12:49 nrook: please do. We also need to think about the bad potions. 14:13:30 there, updated here http://pastebin.com/jcdhNuCR (this is the same link, so you can just refresh) 14:15:38 -!- mumra1 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:15:49 personally I think heal wounds is at least as valuable as might/agility/brilliance, and levitation is pretty useless 14:16:36 I priced levitation higher because if it's not useless, it's probably fairly valuable (accessing some closed-off area or vault), and if it's useless, it's actually useless, so you won't buy it anyway 14:16:38 I think !RA and !mutation are too expensive, and !speed, !hw, !healing too cheap 14:17:16 !lev isn't important though 14:17:18 elderman: sorry, cannot help 14:18:10 nrook: I agree !lev price doesn't have to be really low, yeah... the exact same reasoning applies to !RA though 14:18:20 usually completely useless, but occasionally really good 14:18:48 thanks dpeg, I'll hang out for a bit and see if anyone can help me figure it out 14:18:55 yeah, you're right 14:20:14 nrook: since you have the list -- could you indicate old and new prices? 14:20:25 I am looking at shopping.cc, but a list makes it much easier 14:20:46 dpeg: the list I posted is old prices, is that what you mean? 14:21:30 I hadn't tried to build crawl for several months and ugraded to Natty in the mean time, which perhaps is why I'm suddenly having trouble 14:21:33 so we don't have a proposal for new prices yet? 14:21:47 elderman: some contribs may have changed 14:22:00 no, just the new price-tiering ideas I posted, I'm about to post a working proposal 14:22:01 what is it: git update submodule ? 14:23:05 working proposal: http://pastebin.com/QZBxv7wS 14:23:37 dpeg, looks like git submodule update, that shows promise 14:24:05 I suggest to make !CM as expensive as !GainFoo 14:24:19 bad potions should not cost 1 anymore, but something like 10 14:24:59 (a little more than the price of a scroll of identify is even justifiable) 14:25:23 I was thinking that "dud" bad potions (ones which don't do anything horrible if you drink them out of battle) should be priced around 10, and semipermanent ones a little higher 14:26:11 elderman: is that a fresh checkout? if not, try make clean 14:26:23 I rarely identify potions until I've got a bunch of identify scrolls laying around, so I'd pay a bit to get, say, decay identified 14:27:52 and yes, I buy making cure mutation more expensive 14:27:58 nrook: yes. If you see an unidentified potion in a shop, buying should not be the trivial action. Not sure what cost that means, but 10-20 seems a good start. 14:28:35 what about just not having bad potions in shops? they only are used for IDing 14:29:25 that makes shops better on average, though 14:29:30 yes 14:29:37 Eronarn: so you would never have to worry about quaff-id'ing potions you buy? 14:29:46 also the decision whether to quaff or hold out for shops is interesting, to me 14:29:49 I guess that would be a waste, though, since you know it's a good effect 14:31:39 Wensley: shop prices already do that for you 14:31:44 so it's not a change from the current behavior 14:31:52 true 14:31:54 Eronarn: what I wrote would be changed 14:32:07 also, buying bad items would be less trivial if they cost a little 14:32:13 dpeg: no it wouldn't, they'd still be cheaper than all potions at that cost 14:32:27 all it would do is mean you're paying a trivial amount of gold instead of a completely trivial amount of gold 14:32:35 it's a pretty trivial benefit though 14:32:46 you'd have to have them actually in the same price tiers as normal potions to have people accidentally drink them 14:33:07 oh no, price-id 14:33:23 Eronarn: I just explained that the mere presence of shops with bad items makes me sometimes consider whether to quaff-id now or hold out a shop. This would be lost with your proposal. 14:33:24 Thanks edlothiol and dpeg. Looks like that sorted me. 14:33:29 healing is at 20, and semipermanent bad potions would be there too, so at least they wouldn't be confused 14:33:39 elderman: cool, keep it up! 14:34:01 :) 14:35:11 new potion prices updated 14:35:29 I put decay, degen, strong poison at 20, the rest at 10 14:35:55 nrook: looks good to me 14:36:13 dpeg: on the other hand, we'd also lose being able to ID bad potions from shops in the first place 14:37:07 also, seriously, those prices for bad potions do not make sense. what are you trying to accomplish by raising their prices so little? 10 GP is still totally ignorable 14:37:29 if it's a problem for people to buy them at 1 GP knowing they're bad it's also a problem for people to buy them at 10 GP knowing they're bad 14:37:39 not if you find a potion shop, like, pre-lair surely 14:37:41 I believe pricing is inflated based on other factors 14:38:09 in the early game, you may not want to blow money for id when you're saving on something useful 14:38:22 nrook: yes, the prices get modified 14:38:27 MarvinPA: even then there's only like 6 bad potions or whatever, and you'll usually have run into some of them already 14:39:13 identifying potions is only relevant fairly early anyway 14:39:20 we are free to make them move expensive in the next iteration -- 1 gold clearly won't do 14:39:25 it doesn't make sense to talk about modifying this unless we know what we are trying to actually modify 14:39:28 nrook: yes 14:39:39 nrook and I know what we are doing 14:39:50 you certainly aren't acting like it :| 14:40:12 incidentally, ?identify has a base price of 20 14:40:36 yes 14:41:10 and using ?identify to ID confusion, poison, slowing or paralysis really isn't a good deal 14:41:23 since they're so harmless out of battle 14:41:59 nrook: most good players don't do much quaff-IDing 14:42:05 you might want to take this into account 14:42:28 elliptic: oh, really? that does change things 14:42:38 i tend to scroll identify almost all my potions, personally 14:42:45 elliptic: does not mean the prices should go down, right? 14:43:06 most players probably quaff ID 14:43:09 but the good ones scroll ID!! 14:43:37 of course we might do all of this, then go to scrolls and decide identify should be at 30 or something and completely screw this up :p 14:43:55 I'm a bad player, and I also always scroll ID 14:44:09 but yeah, if good players scroll ID potions, that implies that the bad ones should have their prices raised a bit, at least 15 14:44:10 dpeg: the current proposal looks fine to me 14:44:20 although... 14:44:33 nrook: I don't think the price of a bad potion should be the price of identify -- they should just be expensive enough that seeing them in a D:4 shop does not make matters obvious. 14:45:01 nrook: when I suggested that, it was elliptic (I think) who argued against expensive bad potions :) 14:45:16 it was? 14:45:22 (think 40 or so -- he said nobody would buy) 14:45:23 I think so! 14:45:33 elliptic: but you could have easily been someone else =) 14:45:46 well, 40 is a lot :) 14:46:01 see! 14:46:16 maybe just go to 15/25 for now, and see how that changes things 14:46:37 having some bad potions cost more than healing/ID sounds strange to me 14:46:41 free ID for potions found in shops might be distorting ID regimens! 14:47:00 so I really wouldn't put stuff like degeneration above healing 14:47:16 will confuse players, if nothing else 14:47:21 "is this item useful?" 14:47:26 fair enough 14:47:28 nrook: current proposal is ok 14:47:37 just make bad potions be the same tier as good potions 14:47:51 this raises the cost but also makes it non-obvious that they're bad potions 14:48:18 I think price-id in antique shops is an edge case that isn't that important 14:48:29 yes 14:51:53 nrook: gotta go -- scrolls tomorrow? 14:52:07 dpeg: sounds good to me! 14:52:09 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:52:15 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:24 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: bye] 14:52:43 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:54:23 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 14:58:05 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:58:14 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 14:59:47 Hello, I'm back with continuing problems building the most recent git master on Ubuntu 11.04. On the step LINK crawl, I get the following error: "contrib/install/i686-linux-gnu/lib/libsqlite3.a: could not read symbols: Archive has no index; run ranlib to add one" Running ranlib on the archive doesn't solve the problem. Help? 14:59:52 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:35 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:29:38 Tile request: Shroud of Golubria (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4192) by elliptic 15:31:28 elderman: you might try installing libsqlite3 via the package manager, so you don't have to use the version in contrib 15:33:01 Looking back, I don't have the dev package installed... yet... 15:33:15 (I mean libsqlite3-dev) 15:40:24 03elliptic * rfa8b5672afa5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (acquire.cc itemprop-enum.h): Disable quad damage generation outside of Sprint again. 15:41:13 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 15:42:04 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:45:11 yay 15:54:27 edlothiol: thanks for the suggestion, but make process seems to reply on the version in contrib whether I have libsqlite3 installed or not. 16:09:55 elderman: that's weird... (did you make clean? does /usr/include/sqlite3.h exist?) 16:10:15 I did make clean, checking... 16:10:57 it certainly does 16:12:23 elderman: make clean-contrib 16:12:51 and the dependency tracking is flaky, that's why you needed make clean 16:13:08 ok, and now I'll trying making again 16:14:13 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:16:42 so rwbarton figured out the bug that flame/frost missiles do no extra damage 16:16:57 but I'm a bit concerned that fixing it without changing anything will be too large a buff to ranged combat 16:17:53 since currently elemental = +50% damage... better than steel against non-resistant monsters 16:21:01 where by "currently elemental = +50% damage" I mean that those are the intended numbers... actually it has been +0% since at least 0.6 16:21:14 i swear that bug has been 'fixed' at least two times too 16:21:40 Thanks, kilobyte, that worked. 16:23:23 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 16:25:06 elliptic: could make it 25% like the melee brands, i guess? 16:25:38 also then it could be 50% extra damage for negative resistance, too 16:25:49 well, currently vorpal is 30% and stacks with ammo brands 16:26:00 because it's really weird that rF- means different things for ranged fire damage and melee fire damage 16:26:27 elemental launchers don't currently do anything with branded ammo 16:27:01 as a launcher brand, +50% damage isn't too unreasonable 16:27:26 but as an ammo brand, it is likely too good given how common elemental ammo is 16:27:37 hmm 16:27:43 that seems awkward 16:27:57 possibly nerfing vorpal would make sense anyway though 16:28:12 since it is pretty clearly better than speed because speed got nerfed 16:28:57 and although +50% damage sounds too good to me, it would still be nice if it were better than steel ammo (+30%)... 16:31:23 i have basically no idea about ranged combat balance, sadly :( 16:31:42 neither does anyone else :) 16:32:12 personally i think it'd be good if only launchers had damaging effects, and ammo were only special effects. or vice versa 16:32:13 current idea: nerf vorpal to +20% and put elemental at +40% 16:33:01 eronarn: ranged combat could basically use a complete rewrite 16:34:05 elliptic: 'it already got one' (or at least we tried to) 16:34:41 right, in 0.6 16:34:46 and it was bad :( 16:35:02 I didn't actually use ranged combat or look at the code for it at all before then so I don't know how it was 16:35:09 it didn't really change much 16:35:26 can't get poison flame, and... well that's about all that's noteworthy that i remember 16:37:10 (oh, there was the needle stuff too of course, and the skill merge) 16:37:46 also I need to make a decision about how bow of flame + arrows of frost should work 16:38:21 the 0.8 status of that is that you get BEAM_COLD (and no extra damage) 16:38:52 the malfunctioning extra damage code thinks that the brands should cancel out 16:39:10 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 16:39:16 I know that for a time in 0.6 or so, the brands did cancel out... does anyone know why it changed? 16:39:38 pretty sure it came up during the rewrite but i can't remember what the decision on it was 16:40:48 cancellation with cosmetic clouds/beam visual? 16:40:51 it looks like it was unintentional 16:41:25 judging from be20930 16:42:01 this would make sense given that part of the code seems to expect cancellation, as I said 16:42:09 03galehar * r72702663190e 10/crawl-ref/source/player-act.cc: Reduce the frequency at which berserkitis triggers. 16:42:15 so I think I'll try to fix that 16:42:19 03galehar * r3ebe9e62483c 10/crawl-ref/source/player-act.cc: Also reduce the berserk chance for angry randarts. 16:42:59 it seems like it'd be neat if bows had trick arrows but crossbows had various kinds of metal bolts 17:03:08 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:12:20 -!- elderman has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:17:45 marvinpa: when you nerfed steel, you didn't nerf steel javs... was this intentional? 17:20:44 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]] 17:23:59 oh, hm 17:24:02 not really, no 17:24:13 nerfing steel javelins too sounds sensible 17:26:35 okay, I'll reduce them to +30% also 17:27:13 cool, thanks 17:37:15 hi 17:57:05 oh, monster ranged combat is completely separate, isn't it 17:57:18 marvinpa: you didn't nerf steel for monsters either :P 17:57:30 oh argh 17:57:38 i swear i checked that 17:57:42 well, obviously not 17:57:49 but still :( 18:01:20 after having slept on it, i still like the idea of a magnetism spell 18:01:25 elliptic, MarvinPA, thoughts? 18:01:28 due: :) 18:01:42 I still like the idea also 18:01:50 resisting the urge to call it "animal magnetism", of course. 18:02:39 "Magnetise" works, of course. 18:03:56 due: a real magnet, or just a magnetic-style attraction? 18:04:46 Eronarn: It "magnetises" enemies. This increases both your to-hit for metal projectiles, and marginally damage. It has a better effect against monsters wearing metalic armour or who are made of metal -- but it checks MR. 18:05:07 It's designed to be a slightly more flavourful and slightly more useful Corona spell, but with a low power cap which means it's only really useful in certain instances. 18:05:24 (we were discussing AM a while back( 18:06:17 due: that doesn't really sound like a good spell idea to me... monsters who are made of metal only show up later, so you wouldn't want to use a low MR spell on them 18:06:55 it works on all monsters. 18:06:56 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:07:04 also the flavor doesn't really work, since if their armor is magnetic it'd attract stuff to the armor, but if they're magnetic, why would whether they're wearing metal matter? 18:07:20 -!- Adeon is now known as Uaq4fyZV 18:07:45 because the spell works better on metal and therefore has a stronger effect? 18:07:56 -!- Uaq4fyZV is now known as Adeon 18:09:50 it works better on materials that are easier to magnetise 18:09:55 the idea is that it magnetises their armour 18:10:02 and has less of an effect on, say, flesh 18:10:43 but why does magnetizing their armor do anything to help you hurt them 18:11:05 i'd much rather have arrows hitting my armor than hitting my flesh 18:11:19 I suppose it depends on if the armour covers the entire body, or just bits 18:11:34 it's miss-entirely vs. pierce armour, or hit armour vs. hit flesh 18:11:38 how would this interact with metal walls? 18:11:47 metal items 18:12:10 also if it's powerful enough to affect metal projectiles why doesn't your sword get stuck when you hit the guy with it 18:12:31 nearby metal monsters 18:12:40 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ...] 18:12:44 not saying the spell needs to make perfect sense, but right now i'm just not feeling it, anyways 18:13:23 also random thought: have we considered moving one of rmsl / dmsl into tloc? 18:13:43 alternatively, removing rmsl 18:13:54 that too, but if we're going to have both one could be in a different school 18:14:01 eronarn: be careful, you are inching closer to being the person on tavern who wanted to merge shroud and dmsl into one spell ;P 18:14:17 elliptic: but that doesn't make any sense 18:14:20 someone wanted that? 18:14:33 though i think shroud protecting against ranged attacks would be fine 18:14:38 as long as they're arrows and stuff 18:14:53 I'm not sure why you would put rmsl and dmsl in different schools 18:15:05 that would be like putting levitation and flight in different schools 18:15:18 or throw flame and fireball 18:16:18 or fireball and fire storm 18:16:24 (which are different schools) 18:16:25 elliptic: well, you'd want to reflavor it of course, possibly change the mechanics a bit - note that we currently have evap and meph cloud in totally different schools 18:16:49 eronarn: the idea of shroud was as a low-level complement to repel... handling disjoint sets of attacks 18:17:04 ais523: Conj/Fire vs Conj/Fire? 18:17:09 ah, i didn't realize it was explicitly designed to go with rmsl 18:17:15 kilobyte: I thought firestorm was pure fire 18:17:23 I must have my memory all messed up for these 18:17:25 that'd make rmsl as tloc even better of course ;) 18:17:49 (also, there's the rmsl mutation, which does it with 'repulsive energy' rather than air currents) 18:17:54 ais523: no, but you're close, with the Tornado debacle 18:18:46 hmm, D&D allows you to cast feather fall on missiles, to cause them to miss due to gravity not acting on them 18:19:12 Crawl's justification seems similar 18:19:26 (I advise that isn't used as a justification for rmsl, though, as it'd cause too many other problems) 18:20:34 anyways, when i think magnetism spell, most of the things i'd expect it to do seem like a lot of trouble :( 18:20:39 like making magnetized enemies stick to metal walls 18:20:48 or making magnetized enemies stick to each other 18:21:00 those would both be useful for AM 18:21:07 sort of like swiftness, but in reverse 18:21:14 arguably broken, though 18:21:26 also, is it meant to be a hex? if not, it wouldn't fit 18:21:28 ais523: i would like AM to get my cause fear proposal: it works like monster cause fear, where things cannot approach you if they fail their MR check 18:21:40 hmm, that would fit too 18:21:56 the current cause fear effect is really annoying and very marginal usefulness 18:22:13 scroll of fear is pretty powerful 18:22:19 as an escape item 18:22:33 but I don't think it would work as a staple spell 18:23:05 there's also AI to think of... we can make monsters run away if they can't approach you 18:23:19 and can't do other stuff to hurt you 18:24:04 that was added in the most recent version of Pokémon, after people were getting 1000-streaks against the AI without it 18:24:15 I don't think anyone's managed a streak quite so long since 18:24:21 although no doubt they will find a way 18:25:55 someone please commit something, I want to test rebuild scripts 18:26:41 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 18:27:20 nevermind, had some junk not yet pushed on another machine 18:27:42 -!- syllogism has quit [] 18:28:08 03kilobyte * rffa7a02ef0a3 10/crawl-ref/ (6 files in 4 dirs): Build the manual from reST source. 18:28:09 03kilobyte * rcc8bf54d0364 10/crawl-ref/source/util/unrest.pl: Re-wrap too long lines in the manual. 18:38:18 03elliptic * r9225c0aa3ac8 10/crawl-ref/source/ (item_use.cc mon-act.cc): Fix assorted bugs with multiplicative brands in ranged combat. 18:40:10 I'd be surprised if there aren't more things wrong with that code, really 18:40:49 is Cryp7ic's fighting rewrite supposed to fix ranged as well? 18:41:13 don't think so but I could be wrong 18:42:28 I attempted a git merge and there were conflicts, and then my computer crashed before I could fix them. is there a way to have git remind me where the conflicts are? should I just try and merge again? 18:42:53 is it "git status"? 18:42:59 there is a command, I can't remember exactly what it's called, though 18:45:21 that brought up a list, thanks. now I just need to figure out the difference between "unmerged paths" and "changed but not updated" 18:45:55 reset and re-merge? 18:47:08 if you commit with -a, like most people do, there's no real difference between the two 18:47:15 ouch 18:47:17 I always commit with -p 18:47:22 for conflicts, look at <<<<< on the diff 18:47:26 and check every diff before seeing if it goes in or not 18:47:44 i rarely commit with -a -- only if i'm absolutely sure 18:48:20 -p? 18:48:29 ais523: -p? I can't seem to find it in the manpage. 18:48:51 it's git add -p, git commit 18:49:07 it finds every change you made, and asks you if it should be part of the commit or not 18:49:07 Wensley: his rewrite will eventually touch a lot of stuff but it's not addressing ranged yet 18:49:19 ais523: ooh, that's handy 18:49:21 which as a side effect, means you get to check everything you're commiting to make sure it's relevant and you really mean to commit it 18:49:24 I just check diff beforehand 18:49:36 also means that if you just made three unrelated changes, you can commit them separately 18:49:37 or after commit if I want to be damn sure 18:49:54 the staging area is rarely useful 18:50:12 ais523: yeah, but only if they touch different files 18:51:01 I always just read through diff beforehand, yeah 18:51:05 kilobyte: nope, they can touch the same file as long as they aren't within a few lines of each other 18:52:07 yeah, i often run into problems like that 18:52:20 where i want to commit only part of a file but am too lazy to break it out 18:52:23 that will certainly help 18:52:48 ais523: uhm, how exactly can you add part of a file but not the rest? (other than moving the file aside, reverting part of the diff by hand, adding, restoring the full version -- a lot of manual work) 18:52:58 kilobyte: git add -p prompts for each hunk separately 18:55:34 and you can split chunks into smaller pieces 18:57:30 yay a slight error at the end of a 26 minute build script :( 18:57:53 at least it doesn't take >8 hours like it did with qemu 18:58:25 my site's like that... all the custom code has to be run at the last stage of the installer 18:58:32 but before the installation finishes 18:58:37 kilobyte: is it resumable? 18:58:59 so if there are any errors, it kills the install process which can't be resumed 18:59:53 ais523: by hand, sure, but I need to test it fully before adding to cron 18:59:54 I know I was shocked recently when I tried to compile some software I'd never compiled before, and the build was about an hour long and worked first time flawlessly 19:00:09 I was expecting to have to fix things by hand, I usually do 19:00:14 often missing libraries 19:00:48 <3 fully working cross toolchain 19:01:52 ais523: it's so nice when you go do something else and then come back and it's a blank prompt havng finished successfully 19:02:37 kilobyte: I think I have two fully working cross toolchains on here 19:02:47 well, one's unfinished, but it works to the extent that it's supposed to 19:03:16 one is to ARM, and its only purpose for me nowadays is checking to see if build systems that are meant to handle cross-compilation actually handle cross-compilation 19:13:59 due: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/upcoming_tournament_2011 -- does this post look sane? 19:14:43 kilobyte: can't look just at the minute, will do so shortly though 19:16:00 hmm, interesting, the same length as the June NetHack Tourney (which is in July) 19:19:54 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:50 kilobyte: "official" should say "official tournament" 19:22:28 and "second tourney we had in may" should maybe say "previous tourney we had in may" 19:22:39 the causation isn't really right either 19:22:57 given that people wanted to shorten the tourney long before the may tourney was even a thought 19:23:19 this was something originally brought up during/immediately after last august's tourney 19:23:33 doesn't really matter of course :) 19:23:44 elliptic: you're the one with editing powers, this post is live right now :P 19:23:59 I doubt it would be that short if there were no separate tournament earlier 19:24:18 kilobyte: as I said, most people seemed to want it to be shorter 19:24:33 Wensley: not yet put in the "news" category, so it doesn't show up 19:24:47 kilobyte: it's in my RSS feed 19:25:08 Wensley: ah, ok 19:25:21 There was a lot of support for making the tournament shorter. (Also, the usage statistics for August showed a significant slump in playing after two weeks, for all tournaments so far.) 19:25:21 * 19:25:21 Tournament should last 16 days, including three weekends. (dpeg,rob) 19:25:30 yeah, I'm also confused by the distinction between news and dev log :) 19:25:33 that dates from immediately after last year's tourney 19:25:35 elliptic: I think it would be three weeks or so... but then, there's no point arguing. 19:25:44 should I reword that somehow? 19:26:09 up to you, the causation being incorrect doesn't really matter 19:26:32 the whole post sounds damn clumsy to me, too :( 19:28:04 perhaps someone who is actually communicative could say that in a clearer manner? 19:54:22 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:01:52 now that I'm done merging conflicts, how do I finish the merge for good? 20:02:33 as in, my branch name is still displayed as "catoblepas|MERGING" 20:03:05 commit it 20:03:35 awesome, thanks 20:18:08 -!- LordSloth has joined ##crawl-dev 20:20:50 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 20:23:20 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 20:23:25 -!- evilmike_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:23:35 -!- evilmike_ has quit [Client Quit] 20:25:40 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 20:54:10 -!- LordSloth has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:05:17 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 21:21:05 -!- MarvinPA has quit [] 21:28:12 -!- mumra1 has quit [] 21:28:14 -!- mumra has quit [] 21:31:30 Inner flame death text (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4193) by Tiber 21:34:56 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 21:41:22 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:43 asdoo (L20 TrHe) ERROR: range check error (-38 / 17) (Elf:3) 21:44:34 oh man!!! I committed my stashed changes and then suddenly cloud coloration works for no reason that I can remember! yeah! 21:44:51 way to go, past me 21:46:21 so do you think there are people waiting in the middle of the night to merge your stuff? 21:46:36 send it in if it's ready :) 21:47:40 branching in two weeks rather than two days though, so there's no big hurry 21:48:00 you should never assume coders are sleeping at night 21:50:41 kilobyte: not just yet, need to implement MR_PETRIFY as an explicit property rather than just giving catoblepae the insubstantial property 21:55:06 no need to define such a flag for a single monster 21:55:49 most resistances are calculated anyway 21:55:58 I don't want them to be petrified by their own clouds, though 21:56:04 (or be insubstantial) 21:56:28 just add MONS_CATOBLEPAS to monster::res_petrify() 21:56:41 oh... well, that seems simple :) 21:56:47 next to stone golems 21:57:10 now I just need to add the tile in 21:57:26 and maybe make a placeholder tile for petrifying clouds 21:57:51 and then test to make sure that I have not made them too muderously powerful 21:58:00 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 21:58:08 and then maybe tinker with their breath if I have time 21:58:33 I'd want to recompress it anyway, so no need to bother unless you want to test tiles yourself 21:58:48 you use console, right? 21:58:51 yep 22:00:21 okay, so I'll leave off the tiles then. but while on the topic of their breath, is there a way to make it so that their breath is just targeted in the direction of the player, rather than stop at the player's square? right now I approximate that by giving the beam a low to-hit (I think that's what I did, anyway) but saying "the breath misses you" is misleading if you're standing in the cloud 22:02:29 basically, I just want their breath to spread beyond the player's square 22:02:42 you might make it like bolts of foo 22:02:56 perhaps auto-hit too 22:03:27 okay, I will look at the bolt spells. what spells have auto-hit? torment? 22:04:48 Wensley: do you want it to work like poison dragon breath or something? 22:05:12 because that fires at the player, leaving a cloud trail over what it passes, and then is a big explosion of clouds around the player 22:05:15 not quite a cloud that large, right now the breath just draws a line from the monster to the player, or beyond the player if it misses 22:05:29 well, you can tweak the parameters of the function that generates that cloud 22:05:31 this is only a semi-deep lair monster, didn't want to make the cloud inescapable 22:05:41 i think it's cast_big_cloud() 22:05:48 okay, I will look into that 22:06:10 you could also write your own function to place clouds as you see fit 22:06:14 this is what i did for forest wyrms 22:06:34 it has a chance of placing plant life on each of the squares up to 2 away 22:07:26 even miasma has only a chance of rotting or slowing you 22:08:36 are catoblepas going into .9? 22:08:44 it would be very nice to get monster breath weapon timers in along with that 22:08:51 I anticipate getting them in before next week, yes 22:08:57 as in, tomorrow or the day after 22:11:21 breath weapon timers = monster "breath" status? 22:11:34 yes 22:11:43 that sounds awesome 22:11:58 I will make catoblepae much deadlier given the assumption that they won't be breathing most turns 22:12:13 well, it's not something that is guaranteed to go in yet! 22:12:30 then enjoy be petrified and murdered by gnus! 22:12:44 i favor it a lot but i can't commit things, so... 22:42:30 -!- nrook has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:46:07 -!- Twinge has quit [] 23:34:36 -!- cesium has quit [Remote host closed the connection]