00:01:02 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-730-g6369313 (32) 00:10:10 got killed by a berzerking gnoll on lvl 2 (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4175) by sunspire 00:13:10 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:15:39 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-730-g6369313 00:29:05 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 00:54:46 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:35 -!- Excedrin has quit [Quit: reboot ffs] 01:14:30 03elliptic * r1eddf9e5f602 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/dlua/lm_trove.lua: Fix problems with jewellery trove prices (Mantis 4174). 01:26:33 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 01:40:57 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 01:52:53 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:06 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 02:07:17 hi 02:09:54 -!- hoody has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:10:10 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 02:19:55 elliptic: any ideas for roughly how much damage inner flame explosions should do? 02:19:56 MarvinPA: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 02:20:21 it's 3d20 at the moment which could be okay, it might be better to come up with a formula based on monster size though... 02:20:22 inner flame? is that the name of the spell? (I like it) 02:20:57 yeah, that's what i was using as a placeholder name and i haven't thought of any better name :P 02:21:13 are you still placing it at L3 fire/hex? 02:21:17 Ignite flatulence 02:21:18 yeah 02:21:50 is it resistible at all? 02:22:06 (not the explosion, the hex) 02:22:09 yeah, right now it's resistible like any other hex 02:22:14 just uses the same zap code 02:22:41 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:04 hm 02:23:34 i guess FE would cast it mostly off fire skill so it wouldn't have the hex problem of "why not just use EH and oneshot things" hopefully 02:24:05 3d20 sounds like roughly the right amount to me I guess, though I don't really know how the spell will play 02:24:13 yeah, me neither to be honest :P 02:24:44 it has a fairly decent amount of things that could be tweaked to balance it at least 02:24:50 I know I suggested basing it on size at some point, but I'm not sure about that because monster size isn't something that players necessarily know/think about 02:25:38 i have the explosion radius based on size, radius 1 for most things but radius 2 for big/giant 02:26:05 (i think 'big' is the one above 'large' at least) 02:26:05 having small monsters be the same as normal monsters is good probably, yeah 02:26:38 since currently the bigger ones stand out more... whereas I really have no clue which monsters are small 02:27:08 yeah 02:27:44 oh, yaktaurs are big apparently 02:27:48 that's new to me :P 02:28:01 hm, what size can wade in water? 02:28:09 I didn't realize yaktaurs could do that if they can 02:28:41 cyclopses are giant, so i gues it's just giants that can wade 02:28:45 guess* 02:28:59 so elephants are giant? 02:29:05 yeah 02:29:19 yak = large, death yak = big, elephant = giant 02:29:57 elephants can swim :D 02:30:05 (in real life() 02:30:22 i'm discovering lots of monsters that are big that i had no idea about, huh. demonic crawlers and spiny worms, apparently 02:30:39 spiny worms are supposed to be huge, i think 02:31:02 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:31:38 marvinpa: I'm not sure whether something like this is a good way to start using monster sizes and teaching players them or a bad thing because it forces people to think about sizes 02:32:16 yeah... i mean, i guess it's there in the description, and it's not like LRD where the explosion size is random, though 02:35:06 oh, I guess I hadn't noticed whenever the descriptions were changed to describe size more usefully 02:35:25 they just use crawl's internal size names now, yeah 02:35:34 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 02:36:10 that makes it better, though I still worry about stuff like not knowing whether big or large is larger... 02:36:19 right, big vs large is probably the confusing one 02:37:17 maybe have the bigger explosion (and maybe a bit more damage) only for giant? 02:37:20 i guess ideally it could use the new targeting system somehow to show the radius when you target a monster with it! 02:37:31 but that wouldn't be so clear since it's not an immediate effect 02:37:36 that sounds a little annoying, yeah 02:38:23 could use a different message when it succeeds on a big/giant/huge monster? 02:39:11 is huge larger than giant? 02:39:17 yeah 02:39:46 hm... I still sort of like using the same cutoff point as for wading in deep water 02:40:08 since that's something people notice already 02:40:11 yeah, true 02:40:20 that's probably a good cutoff point 02:40:33 plus there's not much in those two size categories that would take you by surprise 02:40:35 if anything 02:40:44 but regardless a different message when the hex succeeds on such monsters sounds good 02:41:27 maybe 3d25 damage for those? 02:41:27 simple_monster_message(mon, " is filled with an inner flame!") is the message for success at the moment, so i guess "filled with an intense inner flame" for giant things? 02:41:53 sure, sounds reasonable 02:42:32 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:51:03 moin 02:52:29 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:52:29 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:53:57 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:54:38 "soul fire" sounds cool too 03:03:19 but it's not like it's their souls that explode :P 03:03:46 and moin due 03:05:45 hrm. 03:05:48 this is ridiculous. 03:06:08 why not? 03:06:45 the 'market square' that plan_4 sometimes builds only affects rock walls 03:07:08 which is ugly as it is, but it's even uglier when that is mixed with unaffected stone/metal rooms 03:07:16 yucky 03:09:50 is really -is- ugly... 03:11:54 due, yesterday I fixed plan_4 so that it doesn't have a top-left corner bias 03:12:09 and doesn't draw overlapping rooms 03:12:16 it only did the latter due to a bug 03:12:28 and the former due to a mistake in the mathematics involved :P 03:27:28 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:36:22 !feat_is_solid(grd[x][y]) && grd[x][y] < DNGN_ENTER_PANDEMONIUM 03:36:27 wtf is this supposed to achieve 03:36:46 I understand the !feat_is_solid, but what significance is there in DNGN_ENTER_PANDEMONIUM and being below it? 03:36:53 it's unobvious from looking at the enum 03:40:46 perhaps the enums were reordered at some point? 03:43:11 the whole _good_door_spot-related code in _make_room is sooo questionable 03:43:20 especially considering that it doesn't even check the right coordinates 03:43:40 and doesn't affect the actual door placement, but can veto the room placement if some strange condition is met 04:34:18 03zaba * r051b02ee4fe8 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-layouts.cc: Remove some irrelevant comments. 04:34:25 03zaba * rd1b0828b399d 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-layouts.cc: Let _octa_room overwrite any wall, not just rock. 04:36:55 I wonder, what's the point of wands of polymorph other working so differently for players and monsters? 04:37:18 there's little fun in 6 bad mutations from a random orc on D:6 04:40:38 we need more "malignant" forms. 04:40:51 ergo it could temporarily place you in a new form 04:52:58 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:54:11 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 05:12:15 vampire bat would make a good start; it's useful to invoke deliberately, but could be dangerous to be trapped in accidentally 05:12:16 03MarvinPA * r5eeeb33f4bb5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (13 files in 2 dirs): Inner Flame: a spell for making things explode 05:19:21 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:38:47 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:47:18 -!- gnsh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:32 -!- gnsh has joined ##crawl-dev 05:50:01 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 06:05:37 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 06:13:13 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:26:19 -!- CardboardBox is now known as Adeon 06:36:41 -!- evilmike has quit [] 07:04:39 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:14:01 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 07:15:20 MarvinPA, inner flame is awesome! 07:45:29 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:45:37 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 08:12:17 03dolorous * r10ae6f89ef1f 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-summoning.cc: Simplify. 08:14:20 quivering 4 runed darts displays only "4 darts" in display window (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4176) by sunspire 08:26:54 there's little fun in 6 bad mutations from a random orc on D:6 08:27:27 I understand why you should have the monster polymorph spell give almost wholly bad mutations 08:28:23 but never understood why an orc or goblin in the early game could, worstcase scenario, potentially give you slow healing, teleportitis, and zerkeritis by d:2 or 3 08:28:47 if anything, just make the polymorph other wand that monsters shoot at the player 08:28:59 give the same mutation chance as eating a fresh mutation chunk 08:29:03 equal bad and good 08:29:51 almost 100% bad and that early means most would rather quit then press on, especially if they can't easily kill the monster in one hit and they keep zapping the player 08:30:16 03dolorous * re4733b6d89c3 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-summoning.cc: Simplify further. 08:30:25 making people want to stop playing before they even get to a branch is a ~bad thing~ 08:30:29 that's my .02 08:32:10 why don't you get golden dragons from summon dragon when worshipping TSO, because they poison? You can summon scorpions that poison things and he doesn't care 08:32:13 Pacra: what's to stop you from farming monsters with recharge scrolls and wands until you get a good mutation set? 08:32:28 st_: that's probably an oversight 08:33:16 due: you can currently farm for mutes in much easier ways 08:33:32 and you'll always need rare cure mute potions to fix mistakes 08:33:34 Pacra: you're missing the point. 08:33:54 just because it's not necessarily the simplest/best behaviour does not mean that people won't do it. 08:34:19 it's not practical to farm because you need not only rare curemut but also recharge 08:34:32 eating mutagenic chunks, you just need curemut 08:34:35 the better solution is to simply either stop letting monsters use polymorph wands, or to change the effect into something that better matches the player spell (temporary forms) 08:34:36 that is true 08:35:57 yes, anything that gives good mutations sounds like it could get scummed 08:36:21 and the polymorph other asymmetry sucks 08:37:18 Zaba: yeah 08:37:54 actactually, the best solution is the combination: disable polymorph other by monsters as a wand until temporary forms exist 08:38:06 indeed, split polymorph other out -- monster /spell/ polyorph other is a totally different matter. 08:56:07 I agree 100% that temporary benific/malic forms existing is a much better thing to do 09:06:16 03dolorous * rb21ca9400660 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Properly name the polymorphed Serpent of Hell, as we do the Lernaean hydra. 09:36:47 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 09:48:29 09:32 <@due> Pacra: what's to stop you from farming monsters with recharge scrolls and wands until you get a good mutation set? 09:48:37 just let people zap themselves with the wand 09:48:41 and then nobody will farm monsters for it 09:49:15 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:03:20 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:04:51 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 10:10:54 rootoo (L9 MfIE) (Lair:1) 10:13:23 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:14:44 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 10:25:59 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:35:51 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 10:35:57 hi 10:38:56 moin galehar 11:08:18 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:25:19 Magic mapping leaks information about connectivity (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4177) by 78291 11:29:57 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 11:36:37 03MarvinPA * rcf5663617fb0 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc: Even out CK's initial fighting/weapon skills 11:51:06 -!- monqy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:51:11 -!- monqy has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:51:19 -!- monqy_ is now known as monqy 12:46:39 03zaba * r261a6d2d5526 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/ossuary.des: Move the exit from ossuary_zaba_flooded to the same room as the entrance. 12:48:30 geee.. still no 64bit builds of doomrl? 12:48:43 are there seriously still people not running 64bit?! 12:48:51 yup 12:49:31 why does doomrl need more than 4GB of RAM, though? 13:05:54 !tell kilobyte Not sure if you saw my earlier reply, so: webtiles in the repo at https://gitorious.org/~fdiebold/crawl/fdiebolds-crawl would be the branch to merge 13:05:55 edlothiol: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 13:13:34 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:14:40 Napkin: are there 64-bit builds of crawl? 13:15:06 yes 13:15:17 did not know that 13:16:14 Napkin: configure CDO to only allow people with 64-bit architecture. make the website use more memory than a puny 32-bit register can address 13:16:31 lol? 13:16:40 lol. :) 13:16:57 :-P 13:17:11 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 13:24:32 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 13:24:37 -!- Zaba has quit [Changing host] 13:24:37 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 13:25:56 -!- st__ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:30:27 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:00:22 Wensley: of course, 64 bit architectures like one CDO is running 14:00:22 kilobyte: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 14:00:26 03dolorous * r3df42d5b697c 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Comment fix. 14:00:36 03dolorous * r745bbc4d9d12 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-stuff.cc monster.cc): Fix Mantis 4173. 14:01:15 Wensley: but for Windows, even though I did port to win64 some time ago, it's currently only a pointless exercise. 32 bit builds work just as well. 14:05:57 would a proper 64-bit version of crawl actually offer any benefits over the usual builds? 14:06:22 is there anything that memory-intensive? <-- has no idea what the memory footprint of crawl is like 14:11:30 on CDO for example there is a hard cap on 100MB 14:12:16 it could be exceeded when the memory wasn't free after a database rebuild... if you were the first to play a new version and then stayed alive long enough 14:18:26 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 14:19:53 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:18 cool, I think I have auto-spell slotting working 14:22:39 I would love that 14:22:46 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 14:23:03 does it have rules so that when I learn dmsl it replaces rmsl on h? 14:23:19 no 14:23:28 it won't change already existing spell slots 14:25:27 but if you put spell_slot = magic dart:deD in your rcfile then it will try to place magic dart in d, and if you have a spell there try e, and then try D, and if all of those are filled it picks the first available slot (the current default behavior) 14:27:10 that seems simple enough 14:27:31 but, are there rules to say which slots I *don't* want occupied by default selection? 14:27:44 so that I can leave h for rmsl, when I get it? 14:27:59 you can change the default by adding a rule at the end for all spells matching .* 14:28:07 nice 14:29:02 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:56 elliptic: <3 14:38:29 elliptic: I actually started this, but my stashed version has just a few lines coded :p 14:41:21 Misplaced hints text about portals (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4178) by camino 14:52:06 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:52:28 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:04:08 03elliptic * r1cd2159d2a50 10/crawl-ref/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Automatic spell letter assignment. 15:08:38 any chance of removing the restriction on draconians not being able to use bucklers now that bucklers have been nerfed? 15:08:45 that sounds awesome 15:08:59 Wensley: it should be removed even if bucklers weren't nerfed, it makes no sense 15:09:07 right, but now is the time to act 15:09:14 we have momentum 15:09:21 also, a deadline for 0.9 15:09:23 (also, we should fix the bonus that nagas/centaurs get to shields, if we haven't yet) 15:09:50 wensley: dracs not being able to use bucklers was never about balance 15:10:27 elliptic: if you think it makes sense, then I won't contest it 15:10:27 eronarn: buckler changes included giving larger races a penalty for bucklers and a smaller penalty for shields 15:11:00 wensley: I actually don't care one way or the other about dracs and bucklers 15:11:11 elliptic: nagas/centaurs are large races for body size, but they shouldn't be for shield use, which they were last time i looked at the code 15:11:45 why not? 15:12:09 draconians don't have restrictions arbitrarily set, they are coded to behave as if they were a large race 15:12:25 right, but I had forgotten which races couldn't use bucklers aside from dracs 15:12:47 trolls and ogres 15:13:02 also, dracs can't use gscs like a large race can, so something's going on there 15:13:07 elliptic: their top halves are size medium, and it's their top half that holds the shield 15:13:13 ogres, trolls 15:13:26 Wensley: dracs are not size large, have never been size large, and anyone saying they're size large is a liar 15:13:58 eronarn: I wasn't aware crawl distinguished between top half and bottom half size... or is there some other way you know how large they are? :P 15:13:58 Eronarn: for armour, they are 15:14:12 elliptic: there is, in fact, a torso size function! 15:14:22 and for centaur/naga, it's medium 15:14:37 what is this function used for? 15:14:41 armor right now i think 15:14:48 lemme go check 15:14:50 eronarn: I think it can be justified there in that it can be hard for the torso to reach the rest of its body with the shield 15:15:47 size_type player_size = you.body_size(PSIZE_TORSO, ignore_temporary); 15:15:58 this is what's used for determining size for armor fitting 15:17:21 in any case, kilobyte: what is your stance on buckler usage? 15:17:27 Wensley: that's a separate problem, like armor not fitting *well* 15:17:34 maybe nagas and centaurs shouldn't need less shield skill to eliminate penalties then, yeah 15:17:37 it doesn't make you better at using a large shield, it just makes using armor (or shields) worse 15:18:06 hrm, my simplification of that code isn't included since small_dwarves ended up not getting merged 15:18:07 oh, I thought that was to what you were referring, after seeing elliptic's comments above about shields on larger races 15:18:31 Wensley: at least before the nerf - not sure what exactly changed - you got an effective skill boost to the skill required to eliminate shield penalties 15:18:36 based on your size 15:18:50 centaurs/nagas count as size large to the game, which is checking overall body size for that, rather than torso size 15:19:08 thus they got the same skill boost as ogres do to eliminating large shield penalties 15:19:30 I see 15:29:22 kilobyte: wrt being treated as size large for gear: this is basically just a hack, it only applies to that function. it'd make more sense to disallow them for the real reason: stuff does not fit their scaly bodies properly. which doesn't make sense at all for bucklers... 15:31:10 scales on the wrist not fitting the grip is a good reason to me 15:32:02 a good deal of images of draconians show their scales as not being flat... this explains armour restrictions well 15:32:55 but why would the grip on a buckler be that much smaller than the grip on a shield, if they are both meant to fit a human arm? 15:33:50 kilobyte: a good deal of images of draconians show them *wearing body armor* 15:34:50 likely custom made, rather than ripped off an orc's back 15:39:34 -!- b0rsuk has joined ##crawl-dev 15:39:36 Hello 15:40:31 I was lucky enough to drop down a hatch on Orc:3 and end up in the center of a Orc:4 village. I was able to mop it up with Poisonous Cloud. It was fun. 15:40:49 It brings me to the point: what if there was a god power, or misc item like that ? 15:41:18 Something that can be used in special places to put you in the biggest danger. 15:42:00 on orc:4 in the middle of a pile of orc high priests, I don't see how using poisonous cloud puts you in more danger than _not_ using poisonous cloud :P 15:42:39 Wensley: That's not what I said. There was lots of priests and high priests, but there were very convenient doors to limit line of sight. 15:42:58 I'm not sure I grasp the gist of your proposal. what would this misc item do? 15:43:29 find the place with most tension and put you there? 15:43:36 Staying there after seeing Jozef (to cast another cloud) would've been suicidal, the cloud takes time to work and it would be risking too much. 15:43:43 kilobyte: Right. 15:43:55 kilobyte: i'm willing to buy that ours can't fit into armor well, but a buckler is literally just a small kind of shield :P makes as much sense as disallowing knives 15:44:00 Perhaps not god power because it would suck in late game. It could even be handpicked spots. 15:44:19 But with intelligent coding I suppose it could work for big vaults too. 15:44:25 Randomly placed ones. 15:44:25 b0rsuk: that actually sounds like a fun god conduct 15:44:34 perhaps for okawaru? 15:44:56 So misc item sounds fun. And it's something that Crawl doesn't have yet. There could be restriction for branches where all you need is to get one item (rune) 15:45:45 it is already a pseudo-conduct with xom 15:46:09 Wensley: XOm doesn't really do that, does he ? His Wheee is quite random. 15:46:42 the timing of his actions could be improved, absolutely. but tension determines how entertained he gets 15:46:58 and an entertained xom is generally good for the player 15:47:23 Eronarn: defeating dangerous foes kind of conflicts with "recklessly run into danger"; the latter gives you death rather than victory. It's TSO who restricts methods you can use to kill, and even then, not beyond the rules of chivalry. 15:47:39 b0rsuk: Wheee works differently if Xom likes you or not 15:48:22 I'm not sure I like the "should be entertained" xom. Old Xom was nice in that you had no god actions to perform, no fuss. Just sign in and Xom takes care of the rest. 15:48:42 There was a god for people who don't want to use 'a' key. 15:48:48 uh, that's how xom is currently 15:49:00 b0rsuk: last time you were complaining that god's _didn't_ require conducts :P 15:49:09 elliptic: But how about zapping a wand of random effects at monsters ? Quaffing unID potions, scrolls ? 15:49:12 and the most recent god is almost entirely passive 15:49:19 what about it? no need to do any of that junk 15:49:47 you can just play normally with xom and it is completely fine 15:50:14 Wensley: It's fine for one god to do precisely that, to the extreme. And with Xom's extremely quirky nature, players may end up memorizing long lists of quirks that entertain Xom. 15:50:22 players don't do that 15:50:27 that's what I'm telling you 15:50:33 elliptic: How soon until they do ? Nemelex ? 15:50:43 soon? xom has been around for years without that happening 15:50:45 I'd personally like a xom wanted to be constantly entertained (so no waiting around or stuff like that) and made it possible (e.g. healing such as to make chain fighting possible) (and would of course also amuse himself by toying with you/monsters) 15:50:48 How long until they do ? 15:51:08 b0rsuk: just try playing with xom, okay? 15:51:30 elliptic: I did an EXTREME case of Xom scumming in 0.4... including 86 naked AC, and so on. It was all about doing things on that list. 15:51:38 I'm not that offended by Xom, other gods offend me more. One stuff I REALLY don't like about Xom is that he frequently interrupts resting (for HP/MP regen). 15:51:45 kilobyte: right, I meant since things were fixed in 0.5 15:52:19 elliptic: in 0.5, he lost Xom armour and mutations, nothing about boredness 15:52:20 kilobyte: Was there even a list of "Xom Things" as early as 0.4 ? 15:52:59 kilobyte: I don't know exactly when it happened or the details, but I remember there were changes that made xom much less gameable 15:53:03 elliptic: quite recently there was a change that being BORED doesn't last forever, which enables scumming by waiting in the temple 15:53:17 scumming that includes getting abyssed 15:53:32 I've seen a Xom mummy recently. Keep waiting and Xom will shower a mummy with gifts. 15:53:57 mummies who are strong enough to survive infinite abyssing can scum that 15:54:04 elliptic: easier to scum that than how Xom scumming looked before 15:54:07 xom mummies are fun but they die a lot 15:54:26 b0rsuk: was it xomscumming? that's ragdoll's account, but I think others pracrice it as well 15:54:29 elliptic: I haven't seen any abyssing, Banish is no longer high on Xom's priority list. 15:54:29 kilobyte: maybe, yeah... but seriously xom scumming isn't a problem 15:54:45 Demon summoning, Tukima's Dance, Torment - these are common. 15:54:45 !lm * type=abyss.enter noun=~xom 15:54:45 571. [2011-06-25] NyaaKitty the Skirmisher (L6 KoCK) is cast into the Abyss! (the capriciousness of Xom) (D:4) 15:54:48 ^^ 15:54:59 not common but it certainly happens 15:55:14 and if you scum for long enough to get lots of gifts then it will happen 15:55:26 it is all that is left to the god currently :( 15:55:32 I dont understand what Sequell just said. How common exactly, can you tell ? 15:55:42 it happened yesterday 15:55:57 kilobyte: yeah, having more variety in terms of really bad things xom does to you occasionally would be good 15:56:10 can xom simulate other gods' wraths? 15:56:21 elliptic: In Powder, Xom simulates other gods. 15:57:13 This means Xom has moods, each time he changes mood he wants you to behave differently. Xom in Powder gives highest rewards on average, but satisfying his moods can be difficult. 15:57:39 Suddenly "no casting", or "no healing" 15:58:42 monqy: Are you saying it's not scumming "because others do it" ? 15:58:50 what? 15:58:51 no 15:59:04 I'm saying that people indeed do it 15:59:04 22:48 15:59:37 people rest around to see what xom will do to their low-level mummy or vampire because they find that fun, not because they think it is an effective strategy 15:59:43 I don't see what the problem is with this 15:59:44 and while I'm not quite sure of the technique, e.g. Ragdoll is 16:00:02 god wraths in general are not very funny... but we can hand-pick some of the best 16:00:04 elliptic: book gifts, rods, wands 16:00:10 b0rsuk: ? 16:00:14 including, say, deck of punishment, since that's random 16:00:42 I got over $2000 from a single gift once. It may've been due to tension, though. 16:00:55 gold acq. does that 16:01:03 sure, gifts can be good... but people who scum xom for gifts die most games, also 16:01:06 can we make xom act according to tension, rather than just whenever? 16:01:06 Not that gold matters much in Crawl, although new Orc:4... 16:02:12 While about Xom, clouds with no gameplay effects should probably not be memorized on map screen. 16:02:33 I wonder... does colorful smoke prevent other clouds from appearing on that square ? 16:03:14 I think useless clouds have a low enough priority that they are overwritten by other clouds 16:03:25 if I understand how cloud priority works, that is 16:03:35 if the paint clouds aren't treated as inferior clouds in cloud.cc, they should be 16:03:49 inferior = gets overwritten by other clouds (like how poison does to meph) 16:03:53 most cloud effects ignore priority and simply do nothing if there's one already :( 16:03:56 there's also cloud priority for pruning if the level gets full 16:04:01 which is irrelevant 16:04:45 I know it makes little sense, but I would like red draconian to produce 1 square of (long-lived) steam rather than flame. Flame deals too much damage. I proposed the cloud of flame, but I had no idea it deals THIS much damage. 16:04:53 3-16 from steam is much more sane. 16:04:59 steam is pale drac 16:05:06 kilobyte: here's a proposal: in cloud_is_inferior, if inf is cosmetic, and superior is not cosmetic, return true 16:05:19 would make non-cosmetic clouds always override cosmetic ones 16:05:19 Eronarn: good idea 16:05:38 and cosmetic = mist or smoke 16:05:55 though... that only gets black/grey/blue/purp smoke 16:05:55 elliptic: Okay, but currently red drac breath is almost a no-brainer. I wanted to encourage choice - hit more monsters, or split them using the cloud. CUrrently, 90% of the time the best tactic is to breath at something in point blank range and watch it fry. Yaks, hill giants... 16:06:13 what does "no-brainer" even mean there :P it isn't like you choose your color... 16:06:13 tloc clouds, magic trail (imb), do not get counted as smoke, and therefore do not get counted as cosmetic 16:06:25 it is very strong, sure 16:06:27 elliptic: It's how you target with red breath 16:06:49 Eronarn: there are only two cosmetic ones: mist and magic trail 16:06:54 Eronarn: Xom uses magic trail 16:07:02 The cloud appears on last square, so if you want to place it in front of monsters you have to damage less monsters. 16:07:10 kilobyte: my version is out of date but it checks cloud_is_smoke, was smoke made not cosmetic? 16:07:22 return (type == CLOUD_MIST || cloud_is_smoke(type)); 16:07:47 b0rsuk: being able to breathe at range is still rather good 16:08:12 it can separate a single monster from a pack and stuff like that 16:08:22 But it hardly matters, because cloud of flame deals so much damage. Most of the time it's best to treat red drac breath as "1 square of flame", forget "multi-target bolt of fire" 16:08:31 Eronarn: that's only AI, smoke has a gameplay effect of obscuring LOS 16:09:08 I'd agree that the flame cloud is a little too much the focus of the breath but you still have lots of options for where to place it 16:09:19 we could decrease the duration of the cloud to make it weaker 16:09:32 elliptic: multi-target breath will probably not harm important targets seriously. A common situation is one big enemy with some lesser ones. 16:09:52 "important targets" means "multiple important targets" 16:10:02 elliptic: perhaps each square the bolt passes through, independent chance of a low-duration flame cloud? 16:10:16 eronarn: that could be good too 16:10:47 I just think there's not much incentive to think a lot about placement of the cloud, I would like that changed if possible. But it's not easy to do without introducing another cloud type. And doing so just for draconian... 16:11:01 kilobyte: perhaps it should check harmful cloud instead of cosmetic, then 16:11:06 b0rsuk: just as much incentive to think about placement as with the conjure flame spell 16:11:22 oh wait, there's no one that generically finds out which ones could be harmful 16:11:25 hmm 16:11:33 well, tome is quite nice. i'm surprised to find so much good weapons/armory, though (at least in crawl terms they would be great artefacts). but omg.. no travel, no auto-explore? feels like work! 16:11:50 maybe for now just add smoke and tloc energy explicitly to is_inferior 16:12:00 Napkin: it has travel if you click on the minimap, but no autoexplore, yeah 16:12:03 elliptic, b0rsuk: more incentive to think about placement than conjure flame, since you also get the blast, and you have to respect the breath timer 16:12:04 I would like it if clouds were all defined in once place, but that is only because defining a new cloud type has driven me insane 16:12:10 s/once/one 16:12:21 monqy: yeah 16:12:24 Wensley: welcome to crawl's source code 16:12:36 _throws a party as he is carted off to the sanitarium_ 16:12:38 clouds aren't too bad 16:12:39 I do like eronarn's suggestion as a way of nerfing the breath a bit, though 16:12:50 i liked extending the cloud code... it's basically all in one file 16:13:22 A way to simulate lower-damage cloud: flickering cloud. One turn empty, one turn flame 16:13:30 smouldering cloud 16:13:48 would monsters voluntarily step onto the "empty" cloud 16:13:54 and how would it work anyway 16:14:01 it sounds more complex than making a weaker variant 16:14:12 Okay, I don't think I can give a convincing solution. I mostly wanted to make sure it's not forgotten. 16:14:16 Wensley: being insane is one of requirements of being an official dev, so you're on good track 16:14:21 would be easier to lower its duration 16:14:31 Yellow draconian bothers me more. Red is mostly fine. 16:15:29 Actually I prefer yellow to grey, whom someone called "not draconian at all". Grey is like a generic stealth/stabbing race, only that you need to adapt to it somewhat late in the game. 16:16:16 b0rsuk: MarvinPA has expressed interest in having grey dracs breathe petrifying clouds 16:16:36 How quaint. 16:16:51 "quaint" 16:17:01 ??? 16:17:12 http://www.wordreference.com/definition/quaint 16:17:27 no I know the word, it's just quite condescending :P 16:17:41 I know the word but I don't see how it makes sense here 16:17:55 Wensley: I'm not a perfect english speaker, I don't catch all the subtleties. 16:17:59 okay :) 16:18:30 I usually imply less than people think I am. 16:20:05 Petrifying in general... an awkward mechanic, don't you think ? Basilisks are barely more dangerous than giant eyeballs. They're faster and deal a tiny bit of damage. But even with some monsters around you are usually very safe. I would only worry in the presence of a komodo dragon or a hydra, or maybe a blink frog squad. 16:20:54 How would petrifying breath be used ? To create "popcorn" obstacles in corridors and cast conjurations from behind them ? 16:21:05 you'll have to ask him 16:24:34 by the way, is there a reason skalds, chaos knights and the like can't choose falchions? 16:26:04 I think long blades are considered too good to be available to everyone. So it's just for fighters and gladiators. 16:26:54 I guess that is one of the perks of fi/gl to help them survive. 16:27:14 could always define an even weaker lblade to offer to the other melee classes 16:34:09 03galehar * r949a3e538524 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Remove another special case in training code. 16:34:09 03galehar 07skill_menu * rde8c1c9a430e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (skills2.cc skills2.h): Remove the XP pool from the skill menu. 16:34:19 kilobyte: falchions and tridents are reserved for fi/gl, this was discussed to death months ago 16:34:50 wtf, I didn't want to push the skill_menu branch 16:35:31 oh, but I created this branch months ago, and it still exists. 16:37:19 elliptic: adding them was argued a lot about, indeed. I don't recall many arguments about them being left to these two classes but not the others. 16:37:31 anyway. so, how about we try to balance tornado? 16:37:33 galehar: <3 16:38:09 kilobyte: people were arguing, that means there were arguments :) as galehar said, falchion is too good 16:38:18 galehar: first we have to figure out how we're going to split enchantments 16:38:19 (trident is even better) 16:38:57 I changed the AC calculation in my spreadsheet. I'm not 100% sure it's exact, but it's probably closer to reality 16:38:59 https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqvhLOPFHpiMdE1oRUx5UzhUNXRMX1ZRU1ppZGpkcFE&hl=en_US&authkey=CJ3vlfIG 16:39:02 !lg * cv=0.8 s=class 16:39:03 87846 games for * (cv=0.8): 9772x Wizard, 9073x Berserker, 7422x Fighter, 6009x Wanderer, 5417x Crusader, 4177x Necromancer, 3989x Transmuter, 3864x Enchanter, 3373x Monk, 3316x Air Elementalist, 2758x Ice Elementalist, 2519x Conjurer, 2368x Abyssal Knight, 2079x Priest, 2051x Hunter, 2044x Fire Elementalist, 2043x Summoner, 2024x Assassin, 2007x Earth Elementalist, 1894x Stalker, 1871x Venom Mage... 16:39:06 currently the choices for non-fi/gl are reasonably balanced... adding falchion would disturb that 16:39:09 !lg * cv=0.7 s=class 16:39:11 179104 games for * (cv=0.7): 15489x Wanderer, 15312x Wizard, 13592x Berserker, 12429x Fighter, 12269x Enchanter, 11735x Crusader, 10431x Chaos Knight, 10264x Necromancer, 8909x Transmuter, 7067x Fire Elementalist, 4938x Priest, 4791x Ice Elementalist, 4712x Monk, 4422x Paladin, 4288x Assassin, 4081x Artificer, 4048x Conjurer, 3664x Air Elementalist, 3480x Hunter, 3293x Reaver, 3290x Stalker, 3052x... 16:39:26 I also added a sheet with damage at power 150 16:39:36 for fi/gl, it would be nice if we could give them better options other than trident and falchion, since the others are clearly worse 16:39:51 which you can easily reach with max skills and a staff 16:40:25 sabre would work, but maces and axes don't really have better choices 16:40:27 power increase damage and also duration. So at 150 power, it lasts 6.5 turns. 16:40:45 though war axe wouldn't be awful now that it got buffed a little 16:41:00 -!- b0rsuk has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:41:25 elliptic: yes, giving better starting equipment to fi/gl sounds like an appropriate buff 16:42:16 if/when we remove some of the many long blades and maces, we could try to rebalance things to make this work better 16:42:22 galehar: looking at the data, current trunk looks around good. It was heavily nerfed but then firestorm getting nerfed later make them roughly equal, with different perks and flaws that roughly balance. 16:42:50 what data? nobody has had a chance to play with what's currently in trunk 16:42:57 removing hammers might be good, long swords are pretty pointless too 16:43:04 elliptic: the spreadsheet 16:43:35 hard to tell that much from a spreadsheet... and I'd still far rather see tornado be pure air with a cooldown period 16:43:51 with the pure Air disaster gone, you get Firestorm and Tornado at the same time, which makes them easy to compare 16:44:13 why do we need yet another overpowered L9 conj/element spell 16:44:18 (we don't) 16:44:31 pure air was tested, and there is just no way to have a useful l9 spell that you can get that soon 16:44:33 I agree with elliptic. pur air, cooldown and a bit less damage sounds more interesting. 16:44:42 kilobyte: shatter 16:44:48 kilobyte: we were still in the process of testing it when you interrupted 16:45:15 and shatter is a better-balanced spell than the storms, IMO 16:45:38 yeah... the only problem shatter really has is the number of flying enemies later; the spell itself is fine when there aren't many 16:45:50 if earth had a spell to ground flying enemies, it would be viable 16:45:59 (hint) 16:46:07 kilobyte: you have an unreasonable dislike of shatter, but plenty of people have used it in 0.8... it saw more use than ice storm, for instance 16:46:08 elliptic: there was no testing, there was a straight damage overnerf (or a nerf not big enough for pure Air, but that's not a good idea as proven by 0.8) 16:46:17 kilobyte: ... 16:46:23 we were testing 16:46:42 kilobyte: you keep saying that balancing it as a pure air would make it niche. I don't understand why. Can you elaborate? 16:47:00 you apparently don't believe that making changes and seeing how the spell plays is testing 16:47:04 kilobyte: [citation needed] 16:48:14 to get a L9 spell in a 3-runer you need to put most of the xp in that school. This is usually a bad idea, so few people do that. 16:48:27 what is left are 15-runers and Ziggurats 16:48:31 false 16:48:48 plenty of people get L9 spells for 3-runers 16:48:54 in that case, you can use that spell well during runes 4-6 16:49:21 seriously, stop making overarching claims without any support 16:49:38 lemme count them 16:50:08 "this spell can't be balanced" "few people do that" "most people find circlelos more natural" 16:51:57 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:51:57 -!- galehar has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:52:07 -!- galehar_ is now known as galehar 16:52:17 "let's give ogres fighting 5 M&F 5" 16:53:10 I'm also not sure how you are counting how many people use L9 spells on V:8 16:53:30 6 out of 90 wins 16:54:11 I see people tornadoing v:8 all the time, though 16:54:37 wizardry helps for early L9 16:55:07 I'm looking at the tournament's data 16:55:09 perhaps they tend to get more runes because tornado has been so overpowered 16:56:47 also, power affect total damage twice (damage per round and duration). This means it can have a significant different damage output in the endgame when power is maxed. 16:57:59 kilobyte: I just checked the logs for the last 5 wins with an air magic title 16:58:09 they all learned tornado before v:8 16:58:14 going from power 120 to 150 increases the damage by 35%. 16:58:15 often substantially before v:8 16:58:21 they learn it mostly in the stash, but looking at the few previous lines the places seem to be: D:17, Elf:2, Zot:1, Zot:3, Vault:7, D:26, Vault:7, Vault:7 16:58:38 sounds pretty reasonable 16:58:48 you can learn it well before the end of the game if you try hard 16:58:50 as I said, getting it in time for v:8 at least, certainly in time for zot:5 16:58:53 otherwise you learn it later 16:58:57 where's the problem for this 16:58:58 people aren't learning tornado in extended endgame 16:59:38 this means that we shouldn't restrict ourselves to just thinking about extended endgame balance (which is rather poor anyway) 17:00:19 D:17 was after Shoals and half of Snake 17:00:34 even with nerfed damage it would still be useful in extended endgame. 17:00:43 galehar: yes 17:00:44 yes, especially since there's no casting penalty now 17:00:55 and if you can cast it you're more than halfway to casting chain lightning 17:00:57 at the same time 17:01:38 or cbl... they have wind resist, right? 17:01:42 @??ball lightning 17:01:42 ball lightning (11*) | Speed: 20 | HD: 12 | Health: 1 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 5 | Flags: 11non-living, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 04fire+++, 12cold+++, 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 12wind | XP: 1024 | Sp: b.lightning (3d18). 17:01:48 yeah 17:02:31 it's more interesting to have it easier to cast and less damaging than storms. You have to combine it with something else, not spam the same spell endlessly. 17:02:49 kilobyte: basically I think that tornado could either be balanced at the level of the storms or at the level of shatter, and I'd much rather see the latter because we already have two storms 17:03:21 we don't need a third spell that is really hard (though certainly possible) to get castable in a 3-runer 17:03:38 elliptic: that niche is already taken by level 7-8 spells, which are underpowered at the moment 17:03:45 ...what 17:04:39 not a single 3 rune winner memorized either CBL or Chain Lightning 17:05:11 that's because they memorized tornado and then noticed that it was so overpowered that they could breeze through extended endgame and get more runes 17:05:20 CBL could use a buff but chain lightning is really quite good 17:05:26 also because cbl/chain lightning are kind of annoying to use for other reasons 17:05:30 rather than being actually overpowered 17:05:33 er, underpowered 17:05:35 try using it on cerebov... best spell in the game for killing him quickly 17:05:38 nor any winner for that matter 17:05:49 what sort of sample set are you looking at 17:05:55 (tourney 0.8) 17:05:58 cbl can kill you if you use it wrong, and chain lightning has terrible feedback about what it's doing 17:06:12 but they're just fine other than being annoying 17:06:58 kilobyte: well, of the 5 most recent wins with air titles, 2 of them had chain lightning memorized 17:07:09 I don't know why people didn't in tourney but the spell does see use 17:08:08 about CBL, I'd like to make it a little lower-level 17:08:08 -!- galehar has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:08:37 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 17:08:51 I did memorize it in all of my AE wins... tried to give it some use in 0.4 but mostly give up, cast is just once or twice in both 0.8 ones 17:10:09 I did a zig once with CBL + makhleb healing (in 0.7), but usually it isn't great... especially with tornado to compare with 17:10:15 my point is: if you repair these two spells and degrade Tornado to balanced pure Air, you end up with three spells in the same function/difficulty niche 17:10:29 they aren't really the same difficulty niche 17:10:35 CBL is really easy to get castable 17:10:50 and as galehar observed, tornado should be used in conjunction with other spells 17:10:55 so I fail to see what the problem is 17:11:13 level 7 17:11:17 also, not all tornado-users have much conj skill... having an air-only spell gives more options 17:11:19 also, for talking about 'same function/difficulty niche' 17:11:23 reminder that you want to make it another air/conj 17:11:36 so that we have air/conj 7, air/conj 8, air/conj 9, all usable at the same time 17:11:53 or maybe they're both 7, i forget 17:11:58 chain is 8, yeah 17:12:14 air 9 means there is even less reason to bother with these two, since you'd need high conj as well 17:12:27 except that you can cast chain lightning while tornado is going 17:12:44 your plan: they get tornado for free a few levels after getting chain lightning 17:12:46 kilobyte: what you just said is based on the assumption that tornado is way overpowered so you don't need any other spells 17:13:02 the sane plan: they have to actually get air decently high and can't ride along on conj, or if they get tornado, they have to raise conj some to get chain 17:13:20 if memorizing a spell means there isn't any reason to bother with any other offensive spells ever, something is wrong 17:13:41 kilobyte: do you want to balance tornado so that when you know it, you don't need any other attack spell? 17:13:44 elliptic: when zigging with Tornado, the other spells cast are not Chain Lightning or CBL... but the likes of airstrike or maybe freezing cloud 17:14:01 don't bring zigging into this 17:14:10 zig balance should not be a large factor 17:14:33 but when zigging with tornado, the other spells cast are not offensive spells 17:14:43 instead stuff like swiftfly cBlink DDoor 17:14:56 this is because tornado is too good 17:15:19 if tornado gets nerfed more, clearing a zig with tornado will be more interesting 17:15:44 Firestorm: rapid nukes at the edge of LOS, Tornado: need to get closer 17:15:52 ? 17:16:12 for the "get closer" thingy, it might be good to decrease radius but increase duration 17:16:54 decreasing radius is another reasonable nerf that could be done with either the air or air/conj version, yeah 17:17:59 and giving it a timer 17:18:07 what duration? :P 17:18:21 half damage, double duration imo 17:19:11 increasing duration and reduce damage/turn or increase total damage? 17:19:32 we shouldn't increase total damage 17:19:43 what if radius depended on spellpower? 17:20:01 Wensley: i don't think there's much room for a variable radius, if it's too small it won't feel too tornado-y 17:20:02 so just by increasing duration, we reduce damage per turn. 17:20:05 and you don't want it too big, either 17:20:21 I'm not that fond of increasing duration, really 17:20:45 I'd rather see it harder to keep a tornado running at all times than easier 17:20:54 yes, breath timer 17:21:23 how long? 17:21:33 or, for a cooldown period, the tornado could decrease in size over time until it wastes away to nothing, like silence. could also have a coolup period too, to represent getting the wind going 17:22:11 wensley: interesting 17:22:46 the opposite, increase range 17:22:51 perhaps you could cast it again while it's diminishing to refresh its duration, but casting repeatedly could have diminishing returns 17:22:55 i don't like it decreasing in size over time but i do like it taking some time to wind up 17:23:06 galehar: if we go with a simple timer preventing a new tornado, I'd suggest the same duration as the tornado itself 17:23:30 elliptic: what about splitting it 25/75? so total duration twice as long right now - 25 warm up, 100 tornado, 75 cooldown 17:24:24 is it doing damage in a lesser radius during the warmup period, or just no damage at all? 17:24:26 what about testing the current state instead? With nerfs to both spells, it seems to be just right. 17:24:43 elliptic: that's a start and easy to do. I had an idea for later: what if it leaves clouds of turbulences and you can't recast at the same place for a while. 17:24:51 rapid firestorm: 3* damage per turn, 1/2 damage per mana 17:24:53 But if you move on, you can cast it elsewhere 17:25:06 kilobyte: everyone except you seems to prefer it to be pure air, though 17:25:37 and these nerfs have the potential to make it a more interesting spell anyway 17:26:01 elliptic: i think i might actually prefer same radius, but less damage. like start at 0 and work up to peak 17:26:17 eronarn: might be too invisible of an effect then 17:26:42 I like the idea of having it grows. First turn radius 2, second turn 4, third turn 6. 17:26:55 you and galehar (among people with good input) and Eronarn (whose opinion is almost always contrary to what makes sense) 17:27:06 marvinpa also 17:27:10 growing could be ok, as long as balance is preserved otherwise 17:27:32 sure, marvin did the original move to it. 17:27:41 uhm? 17:27:50 to pure air 17:28:05 7c86c88bf02ba9fa9c0e74b522b7fa9a52ebc000 17:28:17 oh right 17:28:28 what really matters isn't who supports it but that it's better for several reasons 17:28:31 he convinced you to do it, no? :) 17:28:39 what do you mean balance is preserved? We don't want to preserve the balance, we want to nerf it. 17:29:07 galehar: nerf compared to 0.8 by a good deal, yeah 17:29:20 and we want to nerf it more. 17:29:43 it's still overpowered. 17:29:47 the thorough nerf you did recently is enough... it was even a slight overnerf until Firestorm got nerfed and now they about match 17:30:09 kilobyte: "about match" how do you determine this? 17:30:14 like a level 9 spell is supposed to be... you should look at them together 17:30:33 I object to the idea that all level 9 spells should be like fire storm 17:30:43 elliptic: by looking at damage sheets 17:30:46 before tornado was added, fire storm was generally viewed as overpowered 17:31:00 right, "you should look at them together" 17:31:26 it recently got nerfed a bit, sure, but not all L9 spells have to be like a L9 fire/conj spell that does lots of smite-targetting damage while spamming meatshields and fire clouds :) 17:32:03 I'm trying to balance it to match Firestorm, not some abstract idea. 17:32:06 -!- inspector071 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:32:14 unicode glyphs no longer work (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4179) by sxoz 17:32:14 nobody else wants it to be Air Firestorm 17:32:25 and there's no indication that crawl needs Air Firestorm 17:32:31 when you have two spells that use as different mechanics as tornado and fire storm, there are limits to how much you can tell from damage spreadsheets 17:32:46 Air: mechanics wise, hell no. Power level: that's my aim. 17:33:07 'i want to make tornado like firestorm in power level!' 'tornado is too powerful, we had better make it conj/air' 17:33:10 they are nice to have (thanks galehar!) but basing everything on your personal reading of them and ignoring all feedback from other devs and players is... aggravating 17:33:15 Fire is the damage school and has the less utility spells. It should have the most damaging spell. 17:35:00 tornado doesn't need to match firestorm. In fact it shouldn't. 18:05:48 !seen bmh 18:05:48 I last saw bmh at Thu Jun 23 19:42:50 2011 UTC (3d 3h 22m 58s ago) quitting with message Quit: bmh. 18:06:49 kilobyte: have you spoken with bmh to ask if new abyss will be in before the 0.9 cutoff? do you have a specific date for that? 18:10:18 03kilobyte * r3fa676a71e81 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-cast.cc: Fix auto-id of rings of fire/ice looking at the wrong property. 18:10:28 03kilobyte * rcf6adf31be77 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-cast.cc: Remove an obsolete check for unided staves. 18:11:57 Wensley: I haven't seen him recently, it would be good to ask if he thinks it's good enough. 18:11:57 -!- edlothiol has quit [Quit: edlothiol] 18:18:38 !tell bmh Do you think that the new abyss is good enough to be a candidate for merging this week? 0.9 cutoff is rapidly approaching and I'd love to see it get in :D 18:18:38 Wensley: OK, I'll let bmh know. 18:35:19 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:51 -!- syllogism has quit [] 18:42:46 has a cutoff date been set for 0.9 features? 18:44:17 not really. Should be beginning of july. 18:47:38 hugeterm lets you target more squares (e.g. for controlled teleport) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4180) by reid 19:01:02 attempting to LRD door mimics reveals that it isn't a door, but doesn't put its glyph in the monster list nor causes the mimic to chase you. is this a big deal? 19:03:51 I think it's one more bug in the long list of mimic bugs. 19:04:21 I shall throw it on the pile, then 19:07:44 lich form players can wield holy weapons (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4181) by reid 19:11:52 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:13 remove mimics 19:17:29 of that reminds me: FR: parrots, which verbally mimic your spell incantations and can cast any spell they see you cast 19:19:36 would allied parrots randomly do it to any silenceable monster 19:20:13 summon parrot sounds like a cool way of dealing with liches 19:20:38 and summoning demons whose only loyalty is to a bird, which I find hilarious 19:38:30 03elliptic * rf5743ffc82a4 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-util.cc: Print a message when a letter is assigned to a spell automatically. 20:29:51 LuckyNed the Practitioner (L3 HuHe) (D:1) 20:38:01 Fire is the damage school and has the less utility spells. It should have the most damaging spell. 20:38:09 yes i have often wondered why this was no longer the case 21:04:40 -!- jlewis has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:08:16 -!- jlewis has joined ##crawl-dev 21:24:41 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:34:41 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 22:34:41 -!- neunon has quit [Changing host] 22:34:41 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 22:39:38 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev