00:14:08 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:38 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:22:17 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 00:35:21 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 00:35:48 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:36:04 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:36:07 03MarvinPA * r628fce17e4c3 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-transloc.cc: Prevent teleport control while ascending, instead of just interfering with it sometimes 00:36:17 03MarvinPA * r9364c0ec476c 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Make orb run spawns more likely to spawn near the player 00:36:18 03MarvinPA * r310b20c6c356 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-transloc.cc: Make blinking in the Abyss just blink you, instead of teleporting you for free 00:59:10 noooo marvin :[ 01:41:19 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:52:47 -!- gnsh has quit [] 01:59:32 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 02:02:36 -!- gnsh has joined ##crawl-dev 02:09:38 moin 02:26:36 LuckyNed the Basher (L10 OgBe) (D:8) 02:33:26 if enemy grey draconians are also unbreathing 02:33:33 why do they get sick in poison clouds? 02:34:02 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:34:03 skin absorption of pison? 02:35:47 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:38:03 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 02:41:13 player grey draconians get poisoned in poison clouds too 02:42:15 ah, interesting 02:46:43 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 03:15:40 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:21:57 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 03:27:41 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:27:41 -!- hoody has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:43:02 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:58:33 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:00:02 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 04:02:08 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:07:38 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 05:08:47 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:skills:experience_system&#new_skill_cost 05:09:06 I've written a training simulator in lua 05:09:32 to compare the skill progression of the new skill cost system 05:09:51 I'm leaving for lunch. Feedback welcome. 05:14:05 crap... it does look fine but it'd be quite a balance change. And a release is damn close... 05:14:43 do you think you could implement this very soon so there is some testing? 05:17:23 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 05:33:27 -!- st__ has quit [] 05:58:19 03kilobyte * r44a2f0b1899d 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: Fix CROSSHOST forcing NO_PKGCONFIG. 05:58:22 03kilobyte * rc13ad3a98478 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: Some very kludgy and wrong handling of lua, sqlite and curses for cross-compilation. 05:58:22 03kilobyte * r8bb471d39c6f 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/Makefile: Comment that cross-compilation with contribs for host is not supported. 05:58:22 03kilobyte * re9c9cbed92cc 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: Remove forced -static on cross compiles. 06:22:12 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:23:10 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:23:11 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:24:04 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:30:06 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:47:03 kilobyte: it's already implemented. I'll push it tonight 06:49:51 in other news: my n900 tiles build has white background, some display corruption and certain keys like Esc don't work. And it's unplayably slow. 06:50:38 considering that the previous state was "crashes at startup", it's a huge step forward 06:50:51 I was about to say, that sounds good! 06:51:22 not sure if I can fix the slowness, it's common to all native tiles in general :( 06:54:23 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 06:54:30 when I turn on gpu acceleration of in chrome, I get display corruption in webtiles 06:54:36 must be why it's considered experimental 07:06:33 -!- herself has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:08:06 03dolorous * r34055e10ba2a 10/crawl-ref/source/xom.cc: Remove Maxwell's Silver Hammer from Xom's spell list. 07:08:15 -!- herself has joined ##crawl-dev 07:10:07 03zaba * rb16b2ccc3182 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/layout.des: Prevent layout_roguey from building overlapping rooms. 07:10:16 03zaba * r4ddabd38ed8f 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/layout.des: Place the staircases in layout_roguey to prevent them from generating in special rooms. 07:13:06 MarvinPA: is that intentional that having touched the orb blocks cTele even if you drop it? 07:53:19 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 08:11:50 oh great 08:12:22 overflow temples and encompass vaults don't mix, apparently 08:20:07 03zaba * rc54cff18c1fc 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/rooms.des: Simplify branch checking in special room code. 08:20:17 03zaba * r259633bbca90 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Don't overwrite vaults in _place_specific_feature if we have choice. 08:22:59 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 08:27:24 Morning 08:27:26 moin Cryp71c 08:41:19 -!- mumra has quit [] 08:47:14 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 08:54:26 elliptic: this is what triggered my question about condensation shield and the shields skill yesterday: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:condensation_shield 09:01:37 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:27:42 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 09:38:13 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:42:18 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:44:13 -!- herself has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:45:09 -!- herself has joined ##crawl-dev 09:46:33 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:53:38 -!- mumra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:54:13 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 10:18:12 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:22:30 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 10:23:45 -!- gnsh has quit [] 10:30:06 03kilobyte * re570ce65e60c 10/crawl-ref/source/view.h: Axe two unused function prototypes. 10:30:16 03kilobyte * rb9c1a115983d 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-util.cc: Simplify. 10:32:54 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 10:44:11 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 10:44:45 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 10:50:38 -!- gnsh has joined ##crawl-dev 11:03:26 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 11:08:33 moin elliptic 11:11:18 morning 11:13:48 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:16:07 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 11:16:23 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 11:23:54 -!- mumra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:24:00 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 11:28:21 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:30:08 -!- bhaak is now known as unnethack_fanboy 11:30:21 -!- unnethack_fanboy is now known as bhaak 11:37:06 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:42:34 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:54:50 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 11:55:07 hey -- do you still need OSX binaries? 11:55:25 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 12:04:21 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 12:35:46 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:36:07 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:09:06 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:11:22 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 13:13:34 -!- bhaak is now known as kerio_ 13:14:07 -!- kerio_ is now known as bhaak 13:38:29 bmh: yeah, both now and a way to get them in the future 13:39:29 kilobyte: I'm happy to build them. I'm on OSX 10.6.7 with XCode 3 13:41:59 would be great 13:42:47 which commit should I build? 13:44:04 for trunk, the most recent one of course 13:45:35 what do you need apart from the binary? 13:46:06 My Octopode mutated sharp fingernails. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4164) by elliptic 13:47:22 whatever Macs use for packages :p 13:48:28 my clue is that low... ten years ago it was dmg, I even knew how to make them when sshed in to SourceForge's compile farm (now gone), but I guess things have changed 13:48:55 macs have packages? I can make you a tarball 13:50:39 @??murray 13:50:39 Murray (04z) | Speed: 10 | HD: 14 | Health: 180 | AC/EV: 30/10 | Damage: 20, 20 | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 2600 | Sp: summon undead, torment symbol. 13:51:41 bmh: could you glance at the packages at http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/downloads ? If you could make something of that kind... 13:53:02 ok, an app. Never built one of those 14:00:10 -!- st__ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:01:29 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:19:23 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:42:50 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 14:48:57 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:54:41 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 14:56:27 Ring of ice does not identify on use with other identified rings worn (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4165) by elliptic 15:04:15 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 15:17:07 -!- edlothiol has quit [Quit: edlothiol] 15:17:23 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 15:19:33 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:20:08 03galehar * r9903ee7fc91a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (5 files in 2 dirs): A skill training simulator in Lua. 15:20:11 03galehar * r9b381b9ce1f5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (player.cc skills.cc skills.h skills2.cc): New skill costs. 15:29:42 I forgot save compat. No breakage, but everybody will gain some skills since costs has been reduced by 150 15:29:52 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:30:18 I can reduce skill points by 150 or not. It's no big deal. 15:33:56 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 15:49:58 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:08 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:34:35 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 16:38:19 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:40:12 -!- st__ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:40:48 -!- st__ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:42:52 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:46:22 -!- mumra has quit [] 17:01:17 -!- hoody has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:01:31 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 17:05:37 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 17:06:44 -!- valrus has left ##crawl-dev 17:10:16 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:23:39 -!- hoody has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:23:49 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 17:25:29 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:28:33 -!- st__ has quit [] 17:33:12 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 17:42:09 anyone have any thoughts about Op currently? they seem to be getting pretty well played but i haven't heard much feedback 17:43:27 the opinions I hear are: a large bias towards casters of all kinds, weak early and in the mid game, great in 15-runers 17:43:55 !lg * win race=op s=urune 17:43:55 15 games for * (win race=op): 7x 15, 5x 3, 2x 4, 1x 5 17:44:15 !lg * win s=urune 17:44:15 4741 games for * (win): 2114x 3, 987x 4, 685x 15, 331x 5, 113x 6, 93x 0, 85x 7, 69x 14, 65x 9, 61x 8, 39x 10, 35x 13, 31x 11, 22x 12, 6x 1, 5x 2 17:44:46 yeah, they're definitely not the most melee-friendly race 17:44:57 implementing constriction for tentacles might help 17:45:35 or adjusting aptitudes. That kind of balancing can be done last, though 17:46:52 as b0rsuk said it well, equipment gathering is done in depth rather than breadth as for other races... it makes it damn slow but powerful late on 17:47:29 I don't like how good Op is at unarmed 17:47:39 do we really need yet another good unarmed race? 17:47:42 I doubt this could be changed without hurting the core mechanics (8 rings), so you could offset that some other way 17:47:50 elliptic: +1000 17:48:40 huge aux attacks really discourage using weapons since unarmed effectively costs half the skill points... 17:49:03 -!- ophanim has joined ##crawl-dev 17:49:07 iirc they have the equivalent of claws 1.5 + auxes 17:49:15 how does unarmed cost half the skill points? 17:49:30 this doesn't mean you can't have them, just that it could work using some other way 17:49:46 basically, i gave them claws because tentacles didn't otherwise do anything 17:50:16 we could definitely drop the damage if they did something else 17:50:28 elliptic: if you want to use auxes (and on races like Op, you usually want to), you have to train both UC and Pointy Sticks. Using no weapon, on the other hand, makes this only UC. 17:50:31 reaching and constriction are the two obvious ones 17:50:53 kilobyte: i think this is more a problem with how auxes work, globally 17:51:01 Eronarn: yeah, good point 17:51:03 kilobyte: I wouldn't say that you usually want to... if you are using a Pointy Stick, you just don't bother training UC 17:51:37 elliptic: or rather, train it to 10 not 27, as this is when skills are very cheap 17:51:40 right, unarmed combat needs serious work in general... but for right now it feels like the auxes are the dominant feature of early-game Op 17:52:04 i've thought about auxes for a *long* while and the conclusion i came to is it's better to just have them have a chance of adding a slaying bonus and an effect whenever you attack (possibly, speed-weighted, so that you're more likely per-swing with slow weapons to get an aux) 17:52:49 maybe not actual slaying, maybe just plus damage, but the general idea would be if you hit with your sword and then horns kicks in you get a second attack message but it just becomes part of the sword attack 17:55:32 without completely reworking unarmed combat right now, I'd suggest toning down the size of the octopode boosts... just an aux would be fine, say, without claws improving your primary unarmed attack also 17:56:10 elliptic: yeah, that's fine (though i'd still prefer them to get some combat boost above just an aux, even if we don't rework UC) 17:56:25 raw damage is just there because it was easy to code 17:56:37 you suggested reaching. That's thematic and different than other races. 17:56:38 and because i knew they'd have severe survivability problems early on 17:56:47 if you can think of some effect for tentacles to have that would work the same when using the weapon, that would be cool 17:57:14 reaching on any attack? that would be interesting and certainly help the early game 17:57:44 a less radical idea: auxes could work using Fighting or XL, while UC (rebalanced, possibly) would go only for main combat 17:57:55 yeah, reaching was definitely on my list... the only reasons i'm hesitant are a) interface still sucks b) stuff like swiftness kiting c) undervalued by a lot of people (i know i personally never use it, even though it's quite useful) 17:58:29 kilobyte: IMO UC should still have some effect on auxes, but XL could be the main factor 17:58:35 kilobyte: well, that wound amount to just buffing auxes for everyone who doesn't train UC currently 17:58:55 not necessarily bad/wrong, but i'm not sure it fixes anything, since auxes separate from how much skill you have have all kinds of weirdness 17:59:00 a) autofight helps a bit 17:59:29 Eronarn: right now, races with auxes are worse since you lose the slots and get nothing in return if you don't train UC... 17:59:42 reaching is pretty abusable, I'd be most worried about that 17:59:55 kilobyte: you don't get much in return even if you do train UC, though 17:59:56 not just swiftness kiting, but also stuff like reaching around a hostile rat 18:00:06 galehar: yeah, but not enough. Otherwise I'd have added reaching to all polearms long ago... 18:00:27 on the other hand those issues should be addressed at some point anyway... 18:01:01 Eronarn: centaurs for example. A race that shouldn't be good at bare-handed combat but has powerful kicks. 18:01:13 elliptic: i wonder about making reaching not go through monsters, and giving it a repel effect (enemies have to spend more move to close) 18:01:19 simplest solution would be to make attacks that reach through an enemy have a chance to hit that enemy instead of the target 18:01:54 elliptic: as if, when the attack fails? 18:01:56 we could also consider making reaching be *very* long distance... like, 4 18:02:00 kilobyte: yeah 18:02:09 that would be potentially interesting 18:02:48 kilobyte: so then you wouldn't be able to kill rupert with no risk by hiding behind a rat and reaching, because you'd kill the rat pretty quickly 18:03:47 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:33 elliptic: actually, one idea i think would be really neat: replace reaching with penetrating 18:04:33 yes, there are issues, and they can be addressed. I think there is potential. Let's fix reaching and give it to Oc and all polearms. 18:04:48 so you have to attack the thing next to you 18:04:55 but then you can also choose to attack, at the same time, one thing behind it 18:05:02 that doesn't make any sense though 18:05:11 why does having a monster there help you attack the second monster 18:05:48 yeah, keep it simple. elliptic suggestion is good, let's kill the rat. 18:06:13 elliptic: the idea is that if you have - @rD vs. @.D - the monsters are trying to squeeze as tight as they can to attack you 18:06:40 eronarn: and the dragon isn't trying to get close to you without the rat there? 18:06:49 still doesn't make sense 18:07:15 I'm more worried about swiftness. 18:07:29 elliptic: if you have a square, there's the RL interpretation where it's just in its square, and then there's the physical interpretation of being able to be on edges/etc. of squares 18:08:07 and it's magically on the edge if there's a rat on the next square? is it on two edges if there are two rats? 18:08:12 galehar: as I said, it isn't really worse than kiting with any other ranged attack... and I have no idea how to solve that problem 18:08:20 add stamina to crawl :D 18:08:22 eronarn: but what does the rat have to do with it 18:08:37 elliptic: the rat is arbitrarily blocking the dragon from moving any closer :P 18:08:38 maybe the dragon wants to eat the rat so it is inching closer to it?! 18:08:59 remove things that allow kiting (boots, swiftness, haste?, anything else?) then fix spriggans/centaurs(/merfolk in water?) separately? 18:09:25 monqy: not sure how you are going to fix spriggans/centaurs 18:09:29 other than removing them too 18:09:34 :( 18:10:27 imo just axe swiftness 18:10:39 replace it with lightning charge (which requires targeting some specific enemy to close with) 18:10:49 still air/charms, still low level 18:11:02 how would it work? 18:11:19 you get super fast move speed that goes away if you do anything but move. optionally it can leave a damaging trail, give you a charge damage boost, etc. 18:11:22 what if swiftness (and some other buffs) give some glowing, at a lower rate than it is cured 18:11:35 (also you can't move away from your target) 18:11:42 you lose .5 glow every 20 turns right? 18:11:42 swiftness should probably be nerfed somehow (higher level, glow, whatever) but that won't really solve anything other than swiftness being too good for a L2 spell 18:11:54 haste and inv gives .6 18:12:06 haste is ok because of the heavy glow + high level + nerf + etc. 18:12:16 boots can be axed and just made a super rare randart property 18:12:19 let's give .4 to swiftness and .2 or .3 to Rmsl and some other buffs. 18:12:20 haste and inv also block the normal 0.5 glow decrease 18:12:37 with swiftness can you kite the glow away? 18:12:39 elliptic: that's fine, we don't touch that 18:13:07 e.g. swiftness kite until it runs out, walk normally until you stop glowing, repeat 18:13:13 galehar: i don't like just tossing glow on everything, personally. for example it's basically irrelevant to jiyvaites 18:13:15 it rarely puts in yellow on its own but will if you stack it with other buffs 18:13:25 and undead 18:13:34 I also think glow is a bit unfitting 18:14:03 glow is also rather annoying because you just end up resting it off before doing anything of significance 18:14:11 how is it unfitting? If you stack buffs, you're bursting with magical energies, it makes you glow. 18:14:12 are you going to add glow to boots of running too? 18:14:24 i think swiftness is just conceptually broken... the only way i could see a +movespeed spell being fair would be something like a tloc spell where you move fast for a bit, then you're ponderous for a bit 18:14:27 elliptic: that too 18:14:37 eronarn: no more broken than haste 18:14:42 aside from being L2 18:14:47 elliptic: being L2 is kind of a big deal :P 18:14:50 I meant unfitting gameplay-wise not necessarily flavour-wise 18:14:53 Eronarn: nothing wrong with the concept 18:14:54 I'd rather raise it to L4 or something than add glow 18:15:17 i wouldn't mind swiftness not giving extra speed with flight 18:15:21 kilobyte: i disagree... a spell to generally run faster is actually not a good concept if you think kiting is bad 18:15:27 since flight is plenty useful anyway 18:15:29 nerfing swiftfly would also be good, yeah 18:15:44 both are desirable effects individually 18:15:49 they really don't need to stack for extra bonuses 18:15:56 or it could just give -1 move delay on top of swift 18:15:56 Eronarn: heck, it is damn realistic. There are many ways to let you move a bit faster in RL too. 18:16:13 kilobyte: in real life you can't run for ages without stopping to catch your breath 18:16:20 elliptic: at high power 18:16:35 we can also lower swift bonus to 1 18:16:37 an athlete might be able to outrun someone easily but if he's winded when a second guy shows up he's SOL 18:16:42 and the dungeon is many-vs-you 18:16:43 marvinpa: if the bonus is removed completely from flight, should remove levitation as a spell IMO 18:16:45 I agree with nerfing swiftfly (if not simply axing swiftness) but I'm afraid if swiftness isn't completely gone it will just make it more tedious (for monsters which aren't between the swiftness-swiftfly movespeed range) 18:16:53 Eronarn: you could either make it ridiculously short, or just end up with even more resting 18:16:55 (where it is kiting) 18:17:03 elliptic: sounds fine to me, yes 18:17:04 monqy: right, none of this will really solve the perceived problem of kiting 18:17:13 kilobyte: i'm not saying we should add fatigue to crawl, just saying that without fatigue, general movespeed boosts -> kiting 18:17:23 there isn't really a way around that 18:17:24 the other idea i sort of like is removing flight as a spell and having it only available when you use some source of controlled flight 18:17:31 except the problem with that is that lev is really annoying to use 18:17:32 we can increase monster speed randomisation range to make it less reliable 18:17:47 MarvinPA: I'd prefer removing lev 18:17:48 I mean we can add randomisation to monster speed 18:17:50 MarvinPA: because of annoyance 18:17:59 galehar: wouldn't matter for ranged kiting 18:18:02 MarvinPA: i'd actually like to see the lev effect removed, the current effect becoming levitation (slow telekinetically controlled flight), and a higher level air spell giving 'true' flight (fast, swooping movement) 18:18:07 Shoals or Swamp (to a lesser degree) without flight are a pain in the butt 18:18:19 you stay at high distance (even edge of LoS) and cast magic dart or fire a bow or throw darts or whatever 18:18:21 the current flight effect, i mean 18:18:24 so can still pick up items and stuff 18:18:29 elliptic: true, but it would for reaching. Which is where we started :) 18:18:36 either way, it would be nice for draconian/kenku's innate controlled flight to actually be useful for something 18:18:40 not being able to go down stairs is just pointless 18:18:47 other than saving spell slots 18:18:50 such an awful attempt to make a spell 18:19:05 galehar: it wouldn't really matter, just mean that people who understand the monster energy system would have an advantage 18:19:12 xom levitation is also a pain 18:19:50 galehar: this is already the case... if you understand how the system works, you can exploit it in various ways 18:20:20 getting late. I'll think about it. 18:20:26 for instance, instead of waiting for the D:1 hobgoblin to walk next to you and then meleeing it, you should usually run away from it with one square in between until it double-moves 18:20:26 * galehar zzzz 18:20:32 what about having long-term randomisation? 18:20:38 or medium at least 18:21:00 kilobyte: you mean that a monster would be faster than normal for 20 turns in a row or something, sometimes? 18:21:03 yeah, speed burts! 18:21:09 ie, instead of just getting a bit of energy now and then, monsters fall to speed 9 or rise to 11 for a period of time 18:21:17 elliptic: yeah 18:21:49 that could help make D:1 more about being lucky and less about understanding pillar dance technique, yes 18:22:12 so you can't run from that ogre with a perfect guarantee that the ogre won't ever come closer than one square 18:22:13 wouldn't really address issues with swiftness unless you made the range of speed larger 18:23:13 yes +2 to speed and -1 to swiftness 18:23:26 kilobyte: well, you don't have a perfect guarantee right now (you could get unlucky every time the ogre moves), but it would certainly nerf running away at normal move delay 18:23:36 not sure this is really that great a thing 18:23:37 pillar dance techniques make the early game awful... if you don't use them, you have a pathethic win rate 18:24:05 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:25:03 changing that, even with a reduction for D:1 randomness, is opposed by people due to tournaments putting a large weight to streaks 18:25:37 I think it is really hard to come up with a movement energy system that doesn't reward understanding the details of how it works 18:25:51 I don't think people oppose things because of tournaments 18:26:12 the last tourney didn't even have much emphasis on streaks 18:26:13 one of the reasons I don't like randomised movement energy is because it encourges kiting until the monsters fall behind, at which point it's safe to take a staircase 18:26:16 if D:1 would be about not doing something stupid rather than pillar dancing every hobgoblin you find, it'd be a great improvement 18:26:38 but yes pillar dancing is awful 18:26:51 most people would agree with that, but they also won't be happy about speed 11 ogres randomly killing them a bit later 18:27:01 ah right that too 18:27:07 especially if they don't understand how the system works 18:27:33 I'm not sure whether speed bursts would be better or worse than the current system... it might be worth testing at some point though 18:29:15 a system wherein pillar dancing brought no benefits, rather than being risky/infeasible, would be nice, but I can't think of a good one :( 18:30:21 kilobyte: an alternative way of addressing the D:1 issue would be to make d:1 easier without changing the movement energy system, you know 18:31:34 pillar dancing is rarely that great a situation to be in later on... the problem is just that you are very likely to get into a situation where you have no other options on d:1 18:34:20 man I really hate when the ghost moth follows you out of the portal in spider's lair 18:34:32 at least unseen horrors have the decency to stay inside a level 18:34:46 there are no ghost moths in spider's lair anymore :P 18:34:54 yayy 18:35:24 what were they replaced by? or were those maps just removed? 18:35:30 no idea 18:36:01 ah, the maps were removed 18:37:49 one thing we could do that might make pillar dancing less viable is to reduce regeneration rates if you're hurt 18:37:57 applying to monsters, too 18:38:29 which would mean if you're the more-hurt party, pillar dancing takes a lot longer / is a lot riskier 18:38:35 regeneration rates aren't very high if you aren't hurt, you know :P 18:38:46 elliptic: i mean proportional to how hurt you are 18:39:24 that sounds potentially annoying, people already complain about how long it takes to heal at L1 18:40:20 it'd definitely have lots of other effects, but it'd be a huge blow to pillar dancing's viability 18:40:36 i'm not convinced it's the right idea, but i could see it being a good idea 18:41:05 it would just make pillar dancing last longer 18:41:17 it wouldn't be a huge blow unless you made it ridiculously slow, yeah 18:41:30 most of the time when pillar dancing the monster is uninjured anyway 18:41:34 or heals first 18:42:12 also you aren't necessarily very injured 18:42:20 waiting until you have 2/11 HP to pillar dance is not optimal 18:42:38 pillar dancing when the hobgoblin hits you to 7/11 is how it usually works 18:43:00 I think I pillar dance for mp more than hp 18:43:03 i pretty rarely see people pillar dancing that way because it's so tiresome 18:43:19 mostly i only see people do it when they are almost dead 18:43:29 eronarn: those people die a lot to randomized energy 18:43:50 so why do we care about a strategy that isn't that great anyway 18:44:06 because people that aren't you play the game :P 18:44:14 casmith789: yeah, that's a different matter 18:44:31 eronarn: but why do we need to make running away at 2/11 HP a bad idea? 18:44:42 it is a natural thing to try to do 18:44:48 it sounds like a good idea to me 18:46:05 elliptic: any form of pillar dancing is bad, but it's pretty unlikely we'll find a global way of removing it, which leaves focusing on certain reasons why people pillar dance 18:47:05 theoretical discussions of pillar dancing aren't that useful anyway... what we really need to do is try out some of the options (nerfing/removing swiftness sources, the speed bursts kilobyte suggested) and see how they play... but I don't think we really have enough time to do that before 0.9 18:47:21 there is an easy way to remove pillar dancing 18:47:41 remove movement 18:47:44 make crawl levels nethack size 18:47:46 remove pillars? 18:47:51 no loops anywhere 18:47:56 and make digging a finite resource 18:48:16 if you cross over a tile too many times it becomes a shaft because it wears out 18:48:54 making things make noise as they chase you might help bring respawns to the area at least 18:49:09 which at least makes continuing to pillar dance a bit more complicated 18:49:37 that's a reasonable idea, yeah 18:50:07 having pillar dancing beneficial at all means something is wrong 18:50:24 d:1 balance is what's wrong 18:50:28 kilobyte: why? it is just running away 18:51:05 oh, here's a thought 18:51:12 you don't heal while moving 18:51:20 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 18:51:29 elliptic: i considered suggesting reducing healing while moving... *no* healing is pretty radical though 18:51:36 so regen is pointless? 18:51:50 or nearly pointless 18:51:57 [fucking poor excuse for an ISP, messages with a ten minutes delay...] 18:52:03 regen is a combat or waiting out poison spell now, rather than cast it while running through hell spell 18:52:15 regen is good for running through hell 18:52:29 I mean with no healing when moving 18:52:30 but it would still be good for resting in hell 18:52:30 elliptic: of course, no way to do this right for 0.9 18:52:39 regen needs to become a short-term combat buff anyways 18:53:10 perhaps regen could be based on damage you've taken 18:53:12 look at mid game or late game: there is never a long chase from a single monster 18:53:24 like: it will take X amount of turns to regenerate X% of the damage you just took 18:53:26 yes there is! 18:53:27 kilobyte: right, this is an early-game problem 18:53:33 you should see me fight mennas :P 18:53:34 Eronarn: as in it only regenerates damage you take with it up? 18:53:35 mennas 18:53:36 haha 18:53:46 if you run long, it's because there is no safe spot on that part of the level 18:54:08 the only way to kill mennas is by pillar dancing for so many characters 18:54:09 kilobyte: this is why just addressing D:1 difficulty would make things significantly better 18:54:10 also poisonous cloud kiting any unique 18:54:13 casmith789: mennas is fast, you can't run from him for long... 18:54:18 sure you can 18:54:19 swiftfly is faster than mennas 18:54:20 haste 18:54:22 sure you can, haste, sticky flame, run 18:54:25 repeat until dead 18:54:26 also haste is the same speed as mennas 18:54:33 (and he wastes time casting spells) 18:54:55 monqy: one idea: track 'wounds' (how much damage a single attack deals); regeneration heals each wound separately, and is best at closing small wounds quickly 18:54:56 but you won't be spending 500 turns on mennas 18:55:03 I have 18:55:04 so regeneration is great if you are being swarmed by bees and not great if you are being swarmed by cerebovs 18:55:16 and you might spend 800 turns killing a single hobgoblin on d:1 18:55:36 I am pretty sure I've spent over 2000 turns killing mennas with freezing cloud 18:55:40 MarvinPA: yeah, but no one kites or pillar dances... haste comes and goes, you can't do that for as long 18:55:43 also, wrt to D1 difficulty, going to suggest again that we give a flat HP boost to all roles 18:55:45 so making d:1 less dangerous would at least make the most ridiculous pillar-dancing less likely 18:55:49 this worked *very* well in DDO 18:56:04 which had very similar HP numbers to us 18:56:18 more exaggerated, even - in D&D a mage has ~4-6 and a fighter has ~10-16 18:56:27 flat HP boost could be okay, yeah 18:56:58 everyone getting somewhere between +4 and +10 would be peanuts at high levels but very important on d1, particularly for stuff like kenku 18:57:08 it would also be good to look at what gets pillar danced 18:57:14 hobgoblins and kobolds 18:57:23 and goblins and gnolls 18:57:27 ie hobgoblins and kobolds that have weapons, gnolls, and to a lesser extent ogres 18:57:35 everything 18:57:54 ogres sometimes but that's a risky business by then 18:57:57 kobolds that are unarmed can be pillar danced too but they're a lot less dangerous in my experience 18:58:00 actually 18:58:12 even unarmed hobgoblins and kobolds are still well-worth pillar dancing 18:58:24 @??kobold 18:58:24 kobold (07K) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 2-5 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 4 | Res: 06magic(1) | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 1. 18:58:37 more so the hobgoblins 18:58:40 @??hobgoblin 18:58:41 hobgoblin (07g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 4-7 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Damage: 5 | Res: 06magic(1) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2. 18:59:00 the flat boost, plus limiting or banning HP regen while moving, would have the nice effect of both reducing the need to pillar dance and reducing its usefulness 18:59:03 (still somewhat useful for MP) 18:59:19 as I said before, I think I pillar dance more for mp than hp 18:59:45 cast magic dart, kill one hobgoblin, pillar dance for enough mp to kill the next one 18:59:46 limiting hp regen when moving would be a pain in the ass, especially for a problem that just as much about mp (as casmith789 points out) and for something that is mostly confined to the early game 18:59:52 if we wanted to be cruel we could make it not regen MP either :P 19:00:00 yay 19:00:03 all chars are dd 19:00:08 what 19:00:09 with guardian spirit 19:00:21 i think it should be somewhat scaled, personally 19:00:25 I might be weird but I dont like resting for hp, I like regenerating it while exploring 19:00:30 so you can move in combat fine 19:00:43 if we wanted to try out any change for 0.9 I'd say just make d:1 easier in some way (more HP being the simplest option) 19:00:47 that sounds risky but I'm able to maintain a high win rate even when exploring to regenerate hp... its more fun to me 19:00:48 since that's a fairly simple change 19:01:08 evilmike: yeah, I certainly don't rest after every fight 19:01:17 I agree with evilmike 19:01:19 (though I do on the first couple levels) 19:01:22 Especially if I have a regen source I will explore a lot 19:01:24 could make it so rather than no-moving it's no-moving when an enemy is around :D 19:01:33 of course if hp regen while moving was slowed down, i certainly would rest after every fight 19:01:58 tying it to the presence of an enemy is somewhat game-y, but i think it seems pretty intuitive 19:02:06 a lot of games use that for their rest mechanic 19:02:07 another consideration: hells 19:02:17 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 19:02:22 monqy: ban hell effects 19:02:53 I just don't get this proposal. There are so many things in the game that would be made a lot worse and it would lead to far fewer styles of play 19:02:56 I'd certainly agree that removing all regeneration while moving would be a bit extreme... I only mentioned it because it would actually address pillar dancing, unlike a lot of things :P 19:03:25 casmith789: if we make it a lot harder in this regard there's room for making it easier in other ways 19:03:37 not harder, worse 19:03:40 not worse 19:03:51 it's only worse if it actually does render combinations nonviable 19:04:12 if it removes pillar dancing, and hurts a bunch of combos, but gives us the ability to change other parts of balance around 19:04:13 for instance it would make running through levels a lot worse 19:04:18 that's at least the potential to be a net positive 19:04:43 personally I'm happy with the idea that running away from monsters is a reasonable thing to do sometimes to regain HP/MP... but kilobyte seemed to be saying that it was wrong for pillar dancing to be beneficial at all, and this is the logical alternative 19:05:06 "gives us the ability to change other parts of balance around"? what? there is clearly that option already 19:05:25 hm 19:05:27 does he mean literal pillar dancing or just running away for a long time? 19:05:31 there's nothing wrong with the latter 19:05:32 should an altar vault really contain potions of gain intelligence 19:05:37 no 19:05:38 no 19:05:45 i didn't think so either :P 19:05:49 ooh are you sorting out the vaults? :) 19:05:54 this is that sif altar that kills autorobin? 19:06:00 the blork sif vault, yeah 19:06:05 i think it has !magic or !brilliance otherwise 19:06:10 elliptic: i think running away for a little bit is fine, but i'm not thrilled with the idea of people healing up to full while running away 19:06:16 which are also sort of bad to let you identify for free 19:06:19 if you're sorting through some problem vaults can you fix that one that has temple surrounded by lava? :P 19:06:34 if we made healing/MP regen gradually decline as you get more 'fatigued' (from running a lot) that would be pretty reasonable i think 19:06:40 eronarn: there are intermediate options, yeah... like slower regen or only regen up to half HP or whatever 19:06:46 oh it can have spellbooks too, wow 19:06:59 lets you heal/MP regen while moving in combat, lets you just regen while exploring if you're not that badly hurt, still hurts pillar dancing while permitting a tiny bit of it 19:07:20 is this that altar vault with the orc wiz or jessica or someone in the middle of a circle of water and two potions by a sif altar 19:07:23 yes 19:07:26 kk 19:07:40 just remove all loot from it 19:07:40 can you make that one shallow water, it's annoying with deep 19:07:52 Xe 19:07:53 the whole point is to have deep water :P 19:08:01 it's about blinking things 19:08:08 i know what it's about, i'm saying it's a bad gimmick 19:08:08 if you can't deal with it exclude it 19:08:15 nah I like it 19:08:17 except that the monster won't necessarily have blink 19:08:26 well give it blink then :p 19:08:37 well even without blink 19:08:44 you can just exclude it 19:08:47 :) 19:08:52 it's not hard, it's just annoying 19:09:05 * due annoys Eronarn with Ijyb-on-a-stick. 19:09:09 how is it any more annoying than anything else in crawl 19:09:27 elliptic: Eronarn? easily more annoying that anyoe else! ;) 19:09:30 it is a vault with a monster in it 19:09:31 * due hugs Eronarn. 19:09:31 elliptic: i don't like not being able to get loot 19:09:40 solution: remove loot 19:09:42 that's fine, i'm removing the loot 19:09:43 :) 19:09:44 there's nothing wrong with that vault aside from the loot being too good. i guess it's a little weird when you get jessica spawning in elf because of it though 19:09:45 remove the loot 19:09:47 yay 19:09:51 ahaha 19:09:55 eronarn: does dangerous_book annoy you also? 19:09:56 MarvinPA: i meant the loot it drops when you kill it 19:10:02 elliptic: which one is that 19:10:06 it has loot 19:10:14 the loot is under a cloud generator 19:10:20 Eronarn: come back with apportation 19:10:32 !lg * map=dangerous book 19:10:32 104. nokkonen the Covered (L3 MDFi), engulfed by a cloud of freezing vapour on D:3 (dangerous book) on 2011-06-23, with 195 points after 1872 turns and 0:09:05. 19:10:36 that one's annoying when it shows up really early when you have no chance to survive a cloud, yeah 19:10:50 like, when it one shots you 19:10:55 every vault should have easily accessible loot with no dangerous monsters around 19:10:56 I see 19:10:58 that one is ok as long as you don't let hubris get to you 19:11:07 vaults should have a reasonable risk/reward 19:11:11 I don't really get these vaults which are "if you aren't spoiled you will die to a cloud" 19:11:30 'you are almost certain to die' isn't a sane risk 19:11:35 how is a book under a cloud a risk 19:11:40 sure it is, you don't have to go in 19:11:43 do not step into cloud 19:11:45 how many of those are there, though? All the cloud vaults I can think of make it obvious there are dangerous clouds 19:11:47 zero risk 19:12:03 there's a xom altar with no obvious cloud and a fire 19:12:09 MarvinPA: that's choosing not to do the vault... which should of course be a choice (except for some rare vaults where you have to) 19:12:09 firespitting statue entry vault!?! 19:12:40 a vehumet altar which has flame over it rarely and you may not see it before you get there 19:12:43 when the vault shows up, though, i think it should have decent odds of some characters being able to do it 19:12:52 it does, you might have apportation 19:12:53 they can, play Wr 19:12:54 oh yeah that vehumet altar, I guess that one can be a problem 19:12:55 not all, maybe not even most, but more than just classes that start with apport 19:12:56 or elemental resistance 19:13:05 or enough HP 19:13:17 it isn't like it only shows up on d:2 19:13:18 warper should have some vaults it's best at imo 19:13:29 elliptic: right, it's probably fine starting from like... d4 or so on 19:13:31 given it doesn't have much else going for it 19:13:51 if it shows up on d2 or d3 though very few characters can do it safely without backtracking 19:13:52 Eronarn: I don't think you understand the come back later aspect of crawl 19:14:05 level annotations help too 19:14:46 -!- MakMorn has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:15:22 casmith789: imo people should generally come back later because they want it to be less risky and are willing to temporarily forgo the reward, not because they simply cannot do it unless they come back later 19:15:33 particularly when 'later' is like '3 dlvls later' when it's become trivial by then 19:15:49 a book on d:2 is extremely good loot 19:15:52 but there is literally zero risk in a book under a cloud generator 19:16:05 that's like saying a lava pool on d:2 is a risk because you could cast flight and dive into it 19:16:12 heh 19:16:15 MarvinPA: the risk is *entering* it, i'm not talking about the risk of having it on the level 19:16:21 you're arguing a totally different thing than i am 19:16:22 please stop 19:16:44 has anyone autoexplore-died to it? same for flamethrower and other friends 19:16:48 why is "don't enter it" not an option 19:17:01 why do you think it's not an option, i explicitly said it was an option 19:17:07 the xom altar with the surprise clouds? one of those ice cloud things? 19:17:07 this is about the decision to make that choice 19:17:07 man, there are so many bad autoexplore vaults 19:17:27 I mean vaults specifically designed to punish people for using autoexplore 19:17:40 how is "should i take the risk of deliberately stepping into a cloud that might kill me instantly" ever a decision that anyone needs to make 19:18:02 ogre on one side 19:18:06 cloud on the other 19:18:09 I might do it 19:18:18 how is "should i take the risk of deliberately stepping into a cloud that might kill me instantly in return for a book that i can just come back for later" ever a decision that anyone needs to make 19:18:32 speaking of autoexplore with vaults, there are a couple of vaults that play nice by putting warnings on doors. Except that some of them have things like, a couple of rotting devils (ie nothing threatning at all) 19:18:37 MarvinPA: i am saying that it being a non-decision is bad because if the vault just had less-bad clouds, or showed up a bit later, it would be a real choice right when you saw the vault 19:18:38 I always wondered why that was 19:18:48 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 19:18:58 it flows up in overflow altar range 19:19:03 vaults that influence your play when you find them are better than vaults that give you free stuff later but no chance in hell of getting them now 19:19:06 evilmike: yes. but the ones I'm talking about are ones which warn you using things such as changing wall colour 19:19:09 so most of the time you'll be able to go for it 19:19:11 sometimes you won't 19:19:13 that is fine 19:19:42 MarvinPA: yes!!! this is exactly what i have been saying!!!!!!!!!!!!! my criticism of it is only valid over part of the range it shows up on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! exclamation marks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 19:19:46 for instance that shaft trap dead end vault 19:20:05 what 19:20:16 casmith789: the one with the item? 19:20:20 or spriggan druid forest in lair 19:20:20 are you saying it's fine for it to sometimes show up too early to handle 19:20:21 yes 19:20:22 or not? 19:21:15 I think it's that it's only bad on those sometimes it shows up too early to handle 19:22:04 right, where 'handle' is 'possibly be able to do it but possibly not', not 'easily complete it' 19:22:37 it is bad if it shows up and is utterly trivial and just a free book on the ground; it is bad if it is something you cannot interact with at all (because it would instakill you) 19:22:53 there is space for backtracking in crawl but vaults should give you good reasons to try them out right when you find them 19:23:14 and the best reason they can provide to do them soon is a balanced risk/reward profile 19:23:38 well, whatever, this sounds like loot removal is the easiest solution again anyway 19:24:01 speaking of loot, are the apportation vaults gone yet? 19:24:10 sure, remove the loot, whatever - this isn't specific to this vault, it's a general design issue 19:24:30 (another option would be to make the clouds scale in damage with dlvl) 19:24:34 what are the apportation vaults? 19:24:55 the ones surrounded by 4 3x3 clouds of flame? 19:25:03 the ones with the items behind something such that retrieval requires apportation (or possibly ctele) 19:25:21 yes that one (and possibly others; I forget) 19:25:27 the loot in those is pretty rubbish normally though 19:25:30 casmith789: that one would actually be fine if walking into the empty spaces worked like you'd expect it to 19:25:36 and you'll get it way later 19:25:52 Eronarn: what, kill you? 19:26:09 casmith789: i mean if you either could walk into the empty spaces are, or where they're going to be 19:26:16 right now you take damage for either 19:27:35 (it would be ok if you just got singed, but that's not the way it works) 19:42:37 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:42:54 Maxwell's Silver Hammer won't work with +0 Eveningstar (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4166) by sunspire 19:43:07 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 19:48:35 -!- syllogism has quit [] 20:12:03 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:58:24 03elliptic * rd4ec19645e86 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc: Tweak Warper starting skills. 20:58:29 03elliptic * r3ff7f362f6ca 10/crawl-ref/source/ (15 files in 2 dirs): A new spell: Shroud of Golubria. 20:58:56 yay! 20:59:51 I've probably forgotten something and the balance might be a bit off still, but I think the concept is sound so might as well get some testing 21:00:06 not the most exciting new spell though 21:01:09 i've been splatting crusaders so i'll give it a go when cdo updates 21:02:19 i keep meaning to make some new cool fire spell, should get around to that :P 21:02:50 or something for the necronomicon but high-level necro already has a ton of good stuff so it's hard to thing of an idea 21:03:02 speaking of crusaders, when are they being renamed skalds? 21:04:23 dunno, whenever someone volunteers to do it i guess :P 21:07:52 (never, i hope) 21:08:09 03MarvinPA * r4e4ec99a80c3 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/altar.des: Remove some inappropriate loot from a Sif altar vault 21:09:46 MarvinPA: new fire spells: fire whip, fiery gaze, orbs of fire, hex/fire baleful corona, contagious nec/fire spell... 21:09:57 orbs of fire haha 21:10:18 hex/fire to make things explode when you kill them is what i'm tempted to try most 21:10:37 that sounds cool 21:10:41 it's a bunch of tiny orbs of fire that pop out when you cast it, orbit you for a bit, then activate and iood over at something 21:11:13 not sure what level to target it at though, i guess it'd have to not be too high so you can still actually kill the thing 21:11:46 maybe I'll work on fixing some of the easier things to fix about chei 21:11:54 MarvinPA: i might do that as tmut/fire actually... i think a good hex/fire would be a 'fiery rage' spell that forces a target berserk 21:12:11 MarvinPA: is this lower-level than fireball or a better explosion? 21:12:36 MarvinPA: (is a good start for placement) 21:12:56 probably lower-level than fireball 21:13:06 what level is fireball now? still 6? 21:13:09 yeah 21:13:31 marvinpa: I was envisioning the spell as a status effect which makes all monsters you kill during the duration explode... are you just targeting one monster? 21:13:41 oh hm, that could also work 21:13:55 i was thinking you mark a monster and then that explodes when it dies, yeah 21:14:17 that would be fine too, I'd suggest L3 21:14:34 so it could be a reasonably powerful explosion (but capped somehow with monster HD so you can't just explode rats?) 21:14:48 could use monster size 21:14:54 so exploding elephants would be good 21:15:02 heh, yeah 21:15:53 it could conceivably replace conjure flame in the FE book if it is L3 21:16:22 that could be nice, yeah 21:16:32 should probably highlight the monster in some way (glyph to fire colour like mirror pain's necro? fire-coloured brand? just a status textt thing?) 21:16:50 or maybe it would be better as a reaver-y spell, if you can somehow manage to avoid the explosion yourself 21:17:00 to prevent confusion with similar monsters in packs, reminder to avoid killing it in melee 21:17:01 cast spell, hit with sword, watch explosion 21:18:12 synergy with ring of flames for resistance to the explosion damage! :D 21:20:05 is ring of flames level 7 dual school? imo should be level 6 tri-school like freezing cloud, or perhaps even less hard to cast, since it's more restrictive 21:20:47 ring of flames is really strong 21:20:57 I think it is okay where it is 21:21:09 what about freezing cloud then? 21:21:41 I've considered the idea of making all the cloud spells one level higher and removing conj from them 21:21:51 at least poisonous cloud and freezing cloud 21:22:39 they could probably do with being a little harder to cast, yeah 21:22:40 so that would make them (poison|ice)/air? 21:22:45 yes 21:23:25 i tend to cast poisonous cloud purely off conj skill as FE of veh, that probably shouldn't work so easily 21:23:27 at the moment that would mess up the Cj book though 21:24:24 i think that'd be a good change overall, and that cj could take it 21:24:30 it'd make cj spells like fireball more important 21:24:36 would you like to suggest a Cj book then :P 21:24:57 i think we should add some new spells before we do something like that 21:25:03 crawl already has too few given the number of roles it has 21:25:10 also this idea of removing conj from clouds was pretty controversial last time it got discussed 21:26:28 well, last time it included replacing conj with hex didn't it? :P 21:26:37 I didn't suggest that :P 21:28:54 MarvinPA: i thought it was tmut 21:28:56 air/tmut 21:34:16 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:09 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 21:48:11 I recall there being some bizarre idea of making cloud spells hexes for some reason. Like, you "hex the air" 21:50:12 witches 21:58:34 "Ashenzari can corrupt only scrolls of remove curse." 21:58:41 doesn't he mean, purify? 21:58:50 or bless 22:03:58 remember back in the day when ashenzari couldn't affect the mortal world 22:28:07 does it seem reasonable to make chei's stat boosts more linear? 22:29:20 I'm making ponderousness work based on what proportion of the available armour slots are pondered 22:29:58 so an ogre with all three slots pondered and a human with all five slots pondered will have the same movement delay and get the same boosts from chei 22:30:30 but for the intermediate levels of ponderedness, it would be nice to use a linear scale for the stat boosts rather than the current quadratic scale 22:31:46 this will be a buff for chei if you are below the maximum stat boost (either through lack of piety or lack of ponderous items) 22:32:06 but it will also smooth things out a lot better 22:32:59 (current formula for ogre stat boosts would give 2/6/15, as an example of how ugly things look... I'd rather that be 5/10/15) 22:34:38 or 4/9/15 would be good too 22:36:21 that sounds good, yeah 22:36:32 so octopodes go 0/15? :P 22:36:53 4/9/15, 3/7/10/15, 3/6/9/12/15 22:37:09 haha, I hadn't thought about Op... not sure how they should be handled 22:37:37 i guess piety would be the limiting factor for them, anyway 22:37:56 right, you can get intermediate numbers if you don't have enough piety 22:37:59 so it could just go 3/6/9/12/15 based on piety stars 22:38:27 the single ponderous hat would still bring them to move delay 20 22:38:35 oh, hm 22:38:38 but I guess that's okay 22:38:57 at least they'd gain piety fast, yeah 22:39:13 in the long run i definitely like n78291's idea of just having piety determine your speed 22:39:55 a side effect of these changes is that gastronok's hat is worse for species with fewer slots, by the way 22:39:57 but dealing with limited slot races would be a big improvement anyway, in the current system 22:40:11 or rather, worse for species with 3 or fewer slots 22:40:18 oh? why? 22:40:19 mainly worse for octopodes :P 22:40:44 because ponderousness is going to slow characters down based on what proportion of their armour is pondered 22:41:07 so an ogre with hat of pondering would get +10/3 = +3 move delay 22:41:18 and an octopode would get +10 move delay :P 22:41:22 ahhh i see 22:41:23 regardless of whether they are with chei 22:42:12 I'd also prefer to just have piety determine your speed at some point, but that feels like it would require a serious rewrite of the god... I was just going to fix a couple details now 22:43:12 yeah, sounds good 22:44:09 03dolorous * r5b1bdd34d6a7 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-wanderer.cc: Remove unneeded blank line. 23:08:38 perhaps it feels that way because chei deserves a serious rewrite~~ 23:15:29 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: bye] 23:49:25 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:55:15 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection]