00:03:12 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-614-g28b7f70 (32) 00:10:52 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:11:54 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 00:18:21 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-614-g28b7f70 00:19:26 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:36:01 -!- Guest54557 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:37:04 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 00:37:30 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest82938 01:32:35 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:33:12 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 01:33:38 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:39:11 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 01:39:24 -!- evilmike has quit [] 01:55:14 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 02:00:12 moin 02:15:54 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:21:48 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:24:07 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 02:27:02 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:38:41 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 03:07:24 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:10:44 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:17:39 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:50:33 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:57:29 -!- Zao has joined ##crawl-dev 04:02:15 -!- Zao has left ##crawl-dev 04:13:53 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:18:33 In tiles, it's possible to cast spells in situations where it should be disallowed. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4159) by Excedrin 04:29:59 Sabaki: with curses, you want cursesw for CJK support, it works pretty well (with the usual insane curses API though, of course) 04:30:22 ok, thanks 04:30:48 guess there is no avoiding learning curses then :) 04:43:05 I'm afraid that I can't think of a better alternative 04:43:59 curses uses an API designed in the days of early hardware terminals, so it's pretty bizarre 04:46:24 I guess you'd want cursesw functions rather than curses... the latter try to force in some CJK and what not support, but it's bolted on and even less intuitive 04:47:46 the -w functions can be confusing in places as for them a "character" can really consist of a large set of individual glyphs, one base and possibly many combining 04:49:40 what im really concerned about is 04:49:56 i sort of want to draw a hex grid using half-width characters 04:50:03 and also full width characters 04:50:49 so, just wondering if its gonna be a real pain in the butt to index into that, since youd have a mix of both 04:55:28 when I did a mock-up of that kind I did it in raw vt100 codes, but as someone who wrote multiple vt100 interpreters I'm biased :p 04:55:39 cursesw should do it for you well, I think 04:56:07 including even edge cases like half-overwriting an existing character 04:56:35 better than reinventing the wheel... even if it's hard to drive 04:57:11 cool, thanks for the advice 05:00:52 a replacement for curses that isn't clinically awkward would be nice 05:02:03 I tried making that myself, but there is just too many weird terminals to get it right 05:02:43 I thought most of the weirdness was in handling input 05:03:00 output is relatively easy, dropping the notion termcap/terminfo are good for anything would bring some sanity, yeah 05:03:54 there's libtermkey (or whatsitcalled) that seems to try to do its best to handle input everywhere 05:05:17 but for output, isn't the terminfo stuff basically unneeded? 05:05:39 or is there some important stuff that varies wildly in different terminals 05:07:52 some stuff varies wildly, but terminfo doesn't help with that 05:09:10 the idea was that every terminal has a different name and you can use it in the TERM variable to let terminfo provide the needed codes based on that setting 05:10:04 in practice though, no one added new terminal descriptions... like, Solaris still fails on TERM=linux. And the failure mode is nasty. 05:10:24 so everyone ended up claiming to be "xterm" or "rxvt" 05:10:43 I ran into stuff failing with rxvt-unicode, which for some genuinely mlehmann reason has its own terminfo 05:12:19 these days I use xterm, though 05:12:22 there's a solid common core, though. If you use the lowest common denominator you can have good output with all capabilities other than 256 color support. 05:12:50 well, it'd be nice to build a purely output-oriented library around that lowest common denominator 05:12:57 that would be saner than curses 05:13:05 who needs that many colors, anyway :P 05:13:32 * kilobyte points to people wanting to add that to Crawl. 05:13:47 they can play tiles all the heck they want 05:15:36 kilobyte, more seriously, what's with 256 support? Does every terminal that support it do it differently, or something? 05:19:03 three problems: 1. not all terminals support it, 2. detecting the support is tricky, 3. the codes have a brain-dead design that is not compatible with regular syntax for "SGR" codes and cause terminals which don't have that extension to fail badly 05:19:43 extensions are supposed to follow common rules so they can be harmlessly ignored if not implemented 05:20:21 but whoever added 256 color ignored these rules 05:39:41 kilobyte, what was first to 256 color support? xterm? 05:41:37 but anyway, if it's so messy, then one could let the user choose to enable them 05:41:37 I think so 05:41:37 then it'd be up to the user to detect whether their terminal is capable 05:41:38 or one could try to guess from $TERM, without querying term(cap|info).. 05:41:38 looking around, I think all popular terminals which claim to be "xterm" (xterm, libvte (many of them), konsole, putty) support 256 colors in modern versions 05:42:29 the aformentioned hypothetical terminal output library that would use the standard codes could then rely on a user toggle and/or a heuristic for 256 color support detection 05:46:22 yeah, sounds good 05:46:59 it could be good to send patches to terminals that do not support 256 colors to at least detect and ignore them 06:18:34 03galehar * r9e0420f9bb3e 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Fix spider form being able to butcher with the knife (#4143). 06:54:41 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 08:58:24 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 08:58:25 03kilobyte * r618bc9b06884 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Fix randomization of petrification duration being ignored. 08:58:36 03kilobyte * r8e1e4ea98d69 10/crawl-ref/source/ (tag-version.h tags.cc): Clean up values of XP pool that look broken. 09:04:12 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-617-g8e1e4ea (32) 09:19:14 -!- ainsophy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:19:14 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:24:29 -!- ainsophy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:47:27 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:02:06 03kilobyte * rbfe3fc170289 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-tornado.cc: Let tornado rotate people around. 10:36:09 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 10:39:09 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 10:50:04 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 10:53:07 so CAO trunk is two months old... this is really not good for getting stuff tested correctly 10:54:26 is there a reason why it stopped updating or did the update script just break for some reason? 11:00:54 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:24:12 03dolorous * r88d41a083afe 10/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc: Remove empty #if/#endif block. 11:24:22 03dolorous * r6dd1a5e719e5 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Add spacing fix. 11:39:40 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:54:36 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 11:59:56 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 12:00:07 -!- upsy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:00:28 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 12:00:46 -!- upsy has quit [Client Quit] 12:05:03 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 12:05:15 !seen nrook 12:05:15 dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 12:05:15 I last saw nrook at Sat Jun 18 15:25:30 2011 UTC (2d 1h 39m 45s ago) quitting with message Quit: Lost terminal. 12:05:20 !messages 12:05:20 (1/1) bhaak said (1d 3h 35m 22s ago): http://www.adom.de/blog/2011/06/13/while-i-am-reacquainting-myself-with-jade/ wow (that there really is development, some of the features seem overengineered). expect nethack 3.5 soon, too ;-) 12:08:21 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 12:24:08 03dolorous * r69219ea249bb 10/crawl-ref/source/ (godabil.cc misc.cc): Remove DoNotDropHide item property to never_hide, consistent with other props. 12:24:18 03dolorous * rccf48bac12c3 10/crawl-ref/source/ (25 files in 4 dirs): Rename MONS_(PANDEMONIUM|HELL)_DEMON to MONS_(PANDEMONIUM|HELL)_LORD. 12:35:50 -!- Guest82938 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:36:03 -!- Guest82938 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:44:16 03dolorous * r6d98050f5b6e 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Remove obsolete Donald complaint regarding Kiku's torment and butchering. 12:47:00 -!- mumra has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:51:31 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 12:58:47 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:04:27 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:12:05 -!- ldierk has joined ##crawl-dev 13:36:00 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:44:28 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 13:47:10 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:58:08 03galehar 07stone_soup-0.8 * rf2c646140845 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Fix skill menu not showing cross/anti training help. 14:03:15 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 14:03:15 -!- neunon has quit [Changing host] 14:03:15 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 14:47:39 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:58:05 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 15:12:07 03dolorous * r14e2db6357fe 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Add some Ashenzari-specific Donald complaints, mostly taken from the wiki. 15:12:13 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 15:58:23 -!- ldierk has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:05:20 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:07:05 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:39 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:07:46 -!- hoody has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:08:57 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 16:12:41 !tell elliptic I really like the new crusader, thanks! 16:12:42 galehar: OK, I'll let elliptic know. 16:13:21 yes, good to see elliptic redo the books 16:13:33 how about we rename it bard 16:13:50 aren't bards the guys with instruments? 16:14:02 I agree that Crusader is pretty much besides the point. 16:14:15 bards are jack-of-all-trade 16:14:15 glad people like what I did with crusader... there are lots of directions the class could have gone, of course 16:14:15 elliptic: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 16:14:22 War chanter? 16:14:47 I agree that crusader is a poor choice of name... also the low-skill charms title really should be changed 16:14:54 since currently it is "charmer" 16:15:24 :) 16:15:27 elliptic: when we did that (zipcode provided the initial impetus), there was no good idea for Charmer, it seems :) 16:15:29 seducing the monsters 16:15:30 eronarn suggested charmwright or warded the other day, either of which sound fine to me... any thoughts? 16:15:37 elliptic: go ahead 16:15:49 We could use Paladin for Crusader? 16:16:02 I'm less sure about a name for crusader 16:16:21 yeah, I suggested that too. Paladin is slightly less religious than crusader 16:16:21 I think it's a bad idea to re-use old class names for entirely different new classes 16:16:26 paladin sounds confusing, yeah 16:16:38 only confusing to old players, who can take it 16:16:42 a new player won't care 16:16:42 especially since crusader now has not one but two spells that TSO doesn't like (regen and poison weapon) 16:16:53 jihaderr/mujahideen -- or whatever Indic folks named their religious warriors :p 16:16:56 elliptic: good point 16:17:00 They have spellcasting and melee, armour and evasion, low level buffs. I'm telling you, they are bards. 16:17:12 galehar: okay, do it :) 16:17:13 dpeg: new players, too. just yesterday somebody was looking for a good god for a stalker, using !lg * class=st 16:17:38 stalker is at least a similar idea 16:17:42 without knowledge that stalkers have changed drastically, new players are vulnerable to misinterpreting these statistics 16:17:50 stealth, stabbing, some spells 16:17:52 or CK... 16:18:07 Wensley: I don't care too much about "new" players who try to optimise performance with !lg. 16:18:11 or most gods that went through an overhaul... 16:18:35 dpeg: it's not about optimizing performance, it's about using the channel for advice (which should be encouraged) 16:19:02 Wensley: I was able to pick my gods without internet help back then :P 16:19:24 dpeg: I have no doubt that you're more intelligent and capable than most players who are new to crawl :) 16:19:31 dpeg: and you died! 16:19:35 what's new crusader get? 16:19:40 Wensley: nothing to do with intelligence 16:19:53 so many players are afraid to play around and bite it 16:20:16 http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/e32f7a3a6e281a55c9c7a64e412d2317db7f87f6 16:20:17 eronarn: nothing that exciting... a smaller book with only L2 and L3 spells, and a little more charms skill to start so that using those spells isn't so painful 16:20:47 Fire Brand, Freezing Aura, Repel Missiles, Poison Weapon, Regeneration. 16:21:00 it could still use an interesting new low-level spell at some point 16:21:02 axe regen so we can move it into the second tmut book, thanks in advance 16:21:23 Regeneration is fine as a Ne spell. 16:21:52 I agree. All forms of healing are Ne. 16:21:59 i meant nec/tmut rather than nec/charms 16:22:33 galehar: I'd like it if Nec would emphasise this even more: all spells costing or giving HP in some way. 16:22:56 Eronarn: I think it's fine where it is. Why the change? 16:23:11 Eronarn: er... Regen is listed among the few most archetypical Chrm spells. I can't see how one could argue it to be Tmut. 16:23:19 now it just needs a new name :D 16:23:25 like what, shapeshifting from a wounded human to a hale one? 16:23:30 Sabaki: great nick 16:23:36 -!- dpeg is now known as Menaremenashi 16:23:40 thanks :D 16:24:14 if nobody comes up with a better proposal for renaming crusader before I go to sleep, I rename it to bard. 16:24:17 so what are you into dpeg, karate or igo 16:24:31 a) nec/tmut is a lot more flavorful than nec/charms for a spell that uses nec energy to heal your wounds / modify your flesh b) tmut is lacking in both spells and good spells right now, particularly ones that aren't forms c) it won't affect necromancers much, so crusader is the only block 16:25:17 d) it should come with some kind of negative cost (besides the increased hunger) - this is quite overdue - but imo a spell that does that isn't really fitting for a crusader book 16:26:06 Sabaki: Go 16:26:15 cool :) me too 16:26:25 Sabaki: had no idea that karate uses "sabaki" too :) 16:26:33 me neither until i googled it 16:26:40 also, kilobyte - note that changing forms with poly actually *does* heal monsters somewhat in crawl 16:26:56 so shapeshifting from wounded to healthy is pretty reasonable actually :) 16:27:03 Sabaki: my martial arts is taek won do. But better to leave the chitchat to a time when there's no crawl talk :) 16:27:13 I learned Tai sabaki in Aïkido 16:27:17 -!- Menaremenashi is now known as dpeg 16:27:20 ahh :D 16:27:55 galehar: in Go, "sabaki" means "flexible shape" or similar... makes sense that you can apply this to fighting. 16:28:27 galehar: go with Bard, but be prepared to brave a shitstorm. :) 16:28:42 of course 16:28:49 but with the new book, it's now or never 16:28:57 galehar: perhaps "warmage" or "battlemage" or something similar, although I wouldn't really object to "bard" 16:28:57 Hmm, bard sounds good after having just read wise man's fear 16:29:01 bard seems like a bad idea to me unless we actually come up with some music-y spell for it 16:29:16 yes... at the very least, we can tell folks "better ideas or nothing happens" 16:29:17 because it's so removed from the origins of the term 16:29:18 how about 'spellsword' 16:29:19 give it tukima's 16:29:37 D&D has a hexblade class. we could have a charmblade! 16:29:44 spellsword would work only if they couldn't start with maces or axes :P 16:29:48 galehar: the flavour blurb of the new background could contain them bards singing while in battle :) 16:30:03 that makes even less sense than the current background for crusader 16:30:06 they can pick any melee weapon they like, so long as it is a sword! 16:30:59 hey, then what about Viking warriors singing as they go into battle wielding axes? :p 16:32:39 galehar: or you can write that Bards trained for battle in large schools where they sang all the time. Enough flavour :) 16:32:54 I'd suggest "Spell Knight" except we probably have too many knights as is... 16:32:56 why even bother changing it if we're going to do something that awful 16:33:10 spellblade? remove maces? haha 16:33:37 -!- b0rsuk has joined ##crawl-dev 16:33:45 what about Paragon? they're mortal spellcasters who learn charms to rise above their normal limits 16:34:07 Hi. What stuff does TSO's halo affect ? Only melee attacks hit more ? 16:34:23 b0rsuk: anything that corona does 16:34:33 or Spellsmith? they craft spells designed for battle 16:34:37 ie, all melee and beams 16:34:37 "exemplar" 16:34:37 how about Skald, bard but with a viking flavor 16:34:48 b0rsuk: Hi. I thought it's better hitting for everyone/thing. 16:35:09 experience bug (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4160) by Atma 16:35:23 dpeg: That's what I would like, but ??halo confuses me. 16:35:30 ??halo 16:35:30 halo[1/1]: TSO lights up you and your surroundings like the Olympic Stadium, in a piety-based radius, centered on you. Within the halo's radius, every creature (excluding you) is easier to hit in melee, invisible creatures are revealed, and your stealth is ruined. Evil summons immediately turn hostile with TSO, but this is true of all good gods, not the halo. 16:36:17 hm, don't know the precise state... I am sure that, originally, the halo would also make you easier to hit, but this may have changed over time 16:36:35 I would like to know for sure before I spend a lot of time trying to start some combo like draconian air elementalist 16:36:38 yes, it doesn't hurt you now 16:36:49 this was changed after it made spriggans of TSO a deathtrap 16:37:46 what good is a spriggan without stabbing though 16:39:30 !lg * race=sp god=the shining one s=class 16:39:30 261 games for * (race=sp god=the shining one): 215x Paladin, 8x Enchanter, 6x Assassin, 6x Artificer, 5x Warper, 3x Crusader, 3x Berserker, 3x Thief, 2x Wanderer, 2x Fighter, 1x Air Elementalist, 1x Wizard, 1x Transmuter, 1x Conjurer, 1x Venom Mage, 1x Arcane Marksman, 1x Fire Elementalist, 1x Death Knight 16:40:02 There should be a race with great Stealth but awful Stabbing 16:40:07 03elliptic * ra0437059eb63 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Rename Charmer to Charmwright. 16:40:14 there's the other way around, I think 16:40:16 naga 16:40:18 03elliptic * r2b4f146a914d 10/crawl-ref/source/player-stats.cc: Make Jiyva stat shuffling smarter. 16:40:24 !apt ho 16:40:24 People would probably play it as a conjurer, I guess. 16:40:25 HO: Air: -2, Armour: 1, Axes: 2!, Bows: -1, Charms: -1, Conj: 0, Xbows: -1, Dodge: -2, Earth: 0, Evo: 0, Exp: 100, Fighting: 2!, Fire: 0, Hexes: 0, Ice: 0, Inv: 0, Long: 1, Maces: 1, Nec: 0, Poison: -1, Polearms: 1, Shields: 1, Short: 0, Slings: -1, Splcast: -3, Stab: 2, Staves: -1, Stealth: -2, Summ: 0, Throw: 0, Tloc: -2, Tmut: -3, Traps: 0, Unarmed: 1! 16:40:35 Wensley: I know, I proposed it. 16:40:38 stab 2, stealth -2 16:40:53 -!- ZorbaBeta has joined ##crawl-dev 16:40:58 They're dirty fighters. Not that it really works in practice. 16:41:07 octopedes should be able to wield 8 daggers and ultrastab 16:41:10 felids effectively have great stealth but awful stabbing 16:41:22 elliptic: Oh, true 16:41:45 I guess that's why people hate them. They can't stomach something with great stealth but no stabbing. 16:43:53 I think "infuser" would be a good name for new crusaders if it wasn't already a charms title 16:43:54 no 16:43:56 between Bard and Skald, the latter seems better to me, and so less D&Dy... 16:44:24 people don't like felids because of savepoints which isn't what crawl is about 16:44:35 s/savepoints/extra lives/ 16:44:47 also they are a bit bland. Could replace fe with op 16:44:51 Wensley: we could just change the charms titles around again 16:45:10 and about War Chants... what if we altered the messages or at least the description, saying the versions of the spells in that book are more musical, yet work about the same as regular spoken ones 16:45:24 why 16:45:30 even when those spells are in other books for other classes? 16:45:38 that's just jumping through hoops to give a reason to rename it to bard 16:45:38 wensley: they could be reordered, sure 16:45:47 casmith789: how do you replace races which are on the opposite ends of the slot spectrum? 3 vs 9 vs 12 16:45:48 how about we give it a name that isn't terrible instead 16:45:54 'Battlemage' 16:46:09 both can't wear armour 16:46:28 galehar: what names have you seen that you think are viable for new crusaders? 16:46:29 kilobyte: I admit that my bard proposal is ver y influenced by D&D's bard. Skald sounds good. Let me look it up. 16:46:34 the felid replacement for it (extra lives) is a lot worse than the octopode replacement for it (rings) from my brief testing of the species 16:46:44 casmith789: and...? It'd be like saying conjurers and transmuters are identical since neither use weapons. 16:47:00 or Paragon, or Infuser, or Warder, or Wardweaver, or pretty much anything other than bard 16:47:10 nono, I don't mean it is a reason to remove felids :P 16:47:26 if Op weren't going in then felids should be removed :) 16:48:29 octopodes and felids however are both low ac high ev non armour wearing monsters 16:48:36 skald could be a nice tribute to all the northern vikings among the dev team ;) 16:49:15 then the class could start with a horned helmet and distressingly furry armor :P 16:49:26 Op have baddish ev, same as humans 16:50:22 -!- blackpenguin has quit [*.net *.split] 16:50:24 -!- Sequell has quit [*.net *.split] 16:50:24 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [*.net *.split] 16:50:24 -!- jld has quit [*.net *.split] 16:50:50 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-626-ga043705 16:50:59 and I hear 0ac is gone from octopodes? pity, that was interesting and hard 16:51:17 you are right, I forgot OP for a bit, I haven't played one for a month or so 16:51:22 I think skald would be pretty cool as far as choosing a name that is devoid of connotations from popular fantasy 16:51:33 skald = new name for crusaders? 16:51:37 bard is sort of polluted in that respect 16:51:38 that's a cool name 16:51:40 yes 16:52:03 kilobyte: Average is bad in the world of Crawl ? 16:52:18 I vote for skald, bringing the number of official votes from zero to zero 16:52:25 "skald" does mean "bard", really... the meaning is the same, just the feeling is different 16:53:13 kilobyte: right, I'm talking of avoiding being shoehorned into tropes. nothing wrong with forging a new path, even if linguistically the names mean the same thing :) 16:53:19 b0rsuk: 0 apt is not average, especially not here 16:53:51 0 apt is better than average! :) I'd say -1 was average 16:53:56 agreed 16:54:09 so then it's really demigods that are the average race, rather than humans? 16:54:16 yep! 16:54:25 with stellar stats 16:54:26 well no, they have average apts 16:54:27 kilobyte: De facto average is playing specialist races ? 16:54:41 indeed 16:55:03 DS is the most commonly played race and it has -1 to almost everything 16:55:07 for some reason we wound up with -1 being average because it would be oh so wrong if humans got 1 in everything instead of 0 in everything 16:55:19 for (there is no actual reason for this) 16:55:24 Skald will even mean new word-combos like DESk 16:55:46 MuSk 16:55:54 elliptic: spellsword gets LOSS 16:56:10 spellsword is a stupid name though 16:57:14 b0rsuk: even giving every race the same weight, average dodging apt is +0.21. This is way off since, say, mountain dwarves hardly ever dodge. And most bad apt races hardly see any play: Ce, DG, Dr... 16:57:32 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 16:57:52 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 16:58:30 you are saying Ce, DG and Dr hardly get any play? Or am I misunderstanding you 16:58:36 kilobyte: DG are severely underrated. 16:58:55 I think people with "must choose a god" dislike them. They're simply powerful. 16:59:03 Demigods make great hybrids and casters. 16:59:18 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:59:51 because, well, gods are powerful 17:01:17 DG are good, and fun. Ce is one of the best races. People don't simply play what is overpowered 17:01:29 Dr gets a lot of play afaik 17:01:35 you give up gods, get terrible xp apt and bad skill ones, in exchange for good hp and nice stats. Not worth it, it's a challenge race. 17:01:54 no no, dg is not a challenge race 17:01:55 Dr is played a good deal more than the other two, yeah 17:02:11 Only boredom keeps me away from DG. 17:02:20 But I'll play some more of them. 17:02:21 compare DG and Hu of vehumet 17:02:21 dg is really fun actually 17:02:25 @whereis 17:02:25 b0rsuk the Tainter (L12 DrVM) saved on Lair:1 on 2011-06-20 after 23997 turns. 17:02:30 nowhere as challenging as, say, Og, right. But nowhere close to good races. 17:02:44 I'd say it was one of the best 12 races 17:02:50 Yes, ogres are much harder than demigods. 17:03:02 With demigods, you eventually get good items and skills. 17:03:05 it's useful to listen to things that kilo says because it's important that at least one of the developers be bad at actually playing crawl 17:03:09 (I say this because I chose one for my streak) 17:03:22 Ogres remain bad casters, and won't have good armour. 17:03:41 DG casters are incredibly strong just due to their good spellcasting and less likely to die than DEs early game 17:03:52 ogre casters in mid armour are surprisingly good actually 17:04:15 Eronarn: personal insult 17:04:23 not as good as say, Hu, but still a lot better than expected 17:04:44 casmith789: I like your approach a lot :) People complain so much in general. 17:05:12 thankyou :) 17:06:37 One thing that bothers me is that draconians' unarmed combat is barely better than human. 17:07:01 the tailslap is noticeable early on and that's all that matters really 17:07:07 were draconian tailslaps ever buffed? 17:07:11 well, a lot of races are dependent on unarmed combat, and draconians don't strike me as one that needs to use UC 17:07:13 Venomous bite is ridiculous. By level14 (I think) you're likely to find Sting, or learn a spell that allows you to poison better. 17:07:26 I'll agree with that 17:07:35 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 17:07:38 it's not venomous bite though 17:07:38 what gets a bite? did green dracs get that at some point? 17:07:40 yellows get an acid one 17:07:44 it's venemous tail sting 17:07:48 at 14 for green dracs 17:07:53 I tried a couple of draconians who disabled Dodging to get higher Unarmed (weapon + unarmed) and it's not worth it. But you can play centaurs like that. 17:07:58 utterly useless 17:08:05 (the sting-tail) 17:08:07 the stinger is cute but yeah it's not a major feature 17:08:11 I can't comment on acid bite 17:08:15 Acidic bite is 2d4 17:08:28 no... it's a bite, and then more damage on top of that 17:08:29 pretty meh 17:08:29 2d4 acid damage, and some default bite I guess. 17:08:36 unarmed dracs are fine 17:08:41 clearly better than unarmed humans 17:08:45 elliptic: If you play Monks ? 17:08:48 not sure what the complaint is 17:08:49 yeah, and it's not like unarmed humans are in a rough spot 17:08:58 perhaps if you are playing a char looking to turn it into some kind of UC powerhouse Ce or Tr or DS (monstrous) may be more up your street 17:09:03 b0rsuk: perhaps you should try not disabling dodge 17:09:14 elliptic: It's better to just wear a plain shield than make use of unarmed aux attacks. 17:09:16 !lg . won dr sk=unarmed combat s=char 17:09:16 3 games for elliptic (won dr sk=unarmed combat): 1x DrIE, 1x DrAE, 1x DrWr 17:09:25 b0rsuk: you still get unarmed aux attacks with a shield 17:09:28 shields don't interfere with tailslap 17:09:30 just not the offhand one 17:09:52 really, it should just make the offhand punch into an offhand shieldbash if you are wearing a shield 17:09:57 also, disabling dodging is a good idea generally with dracs given how low their dex is 17:10:02 then we'd get less people asking stupid questions about it 17:10:13 elliptic: Not enough unarmed attacks to make me care. 17:10:20 care about what? 17:10:29 elliptic: I boost Dex and just enable dodging, it works better. 17:10:35 I don't understand this conversation at all, sorry 17:10:35 About extra unarmed. 17:10:43 that's rather negative and not really -dev discussion. maybe talk about it in ##crawl? 17:10:46 free unarmed attacks aren't good enough for you? 17:11:13 elliptic: Have you played dracs that disabled dodging ? Or are you just talking ? 17:11:18 yes 17:11:20 !won . dr 17:11:20 elliptic (dr) has won 9 times in 18 games (50.00%): 2xDrAE 2xDrIE 1xDrFE 1xDrFi 1xDrHu 1xDrPr 1xDrWr 17:11:33 asking elliptic whether he's played something is probably a bad idea :) 17:11:48 heh 17:11:59 elliptic: I see 1 warrior. 17:12:07 Mostly casters. 17:12:07 warper? 17:12:12 seriously though, as casmith789 said, this isn't appropriate for ##crawl-dev 17:12:22 Many of them probably used Reflect. 17:12:29 castmith is on my ignore list. 17:12:53 oh i guess i am too aren't i 17:13:01 then I suggest you read the logfile 17:13:35 folks, when elliptic says it's not a problem, then at least listen to (or ask for) reasons 17:13:58 also re: shieldbash, that'd make shields even better and remove a choice 17:14:00 yes, dr UC is not a problem 17:14:51 dpeg: I thoroughly nerfed bucklers yesterday, but even with that, shields are massively overpowered 17:15:03 kilobyte: yes, I liked your commit a lot! 17:15:17 9/160 winners using 2-handers says much 17:15:24 I still think "massively overpowered" is a big overstatement about shields in general 17:15:30 bucklers were no-brainers, yes 17:15:41 I am not aware of the SH power curve. Were they recently buffed, or always that strong? When did twohanders get shafted? 17:15:41 on a heavy armour char, large shields and 2H weapons are about as good as each other 17:15:56 casmith789: good to know, thanks 17:16:11 dpeg: well, I just implemented the results of the discussion on -dev, the guilt is shared :p 17:16:14 problem is a +0 large shield is as good as a fully upgraded 2H weapon you are likely to get with trog and no-one else, plus if you do get it it will be late 17:16:30 kilobyte: you mean for the buckler nerf? I am happy with that... 17:16:38 I think the buckler nerf is sufficient for now, along with the demon weapon nerfs already in 17:16:44 (so you've already started training shields or suffer a midgame penalty) 17:16:54 what's nerfed about bucklers? just lower SH from them? 17:16:58 yes 17:17:17 sounds like a good start 17:17:20 would it make sense if shields can be enchanted higher, have their enchantment increase SH (not AC) and start with lower base SH? 17:17:36 their enchantment increases SH at the moment 17:17:36 their enchantment already increases SH, not AC 17:17:43 and basically nobody enchants them 17:17:43 sorry 17:17:49 unless they have excess scrolls 17:17:54 elliptic: yes, I am trying to change that 17:18:04 so shield users need to invest a little more 17:18:09 (like weapon users do) 17:18:12 i think revisiting the shield penalties might make sense, it's probably too easy to get rid of them right now 17:18:13 their enchantment could have a larger effect on SH if that's what you mean 17:18:21 I'd like to have little overlap when it comes to equipment choice. For example the reason I oppose double wield isn't because it's silly or hard to balance. It's because 2H weapons already fill that role. (More damage at cost of defense) 17:18:23 elliptic: yes, I think so 17:18:35 So no shield bash, no double wield. 17:18:38 bucklers weren't super popular because they were amazing but because they were basically no cost other than not being able to use a 2H weapon 17:18:41 b0rsuk: yes, good point 17:19:13 eronarn: I think that could be a decent place to nerf them a bit if we wanted to nerf them, yeah 17:19:15 There is a bit of overlap - 2H weapons and 1H weapon/aux unarmed attacks. 17:19:37 But except centaurs and perhaps minotaurs I've never been impressed by aux attacks. 17:19:47 Dodging just seems a better investment. 17:20:01 how are dodging and aux attacks mutually exclusive 17:20:03 that makes no sense 17:20:09 elliptic: Zero sum game. 17:20:26 spell failure would be a good place to start with that, i think 17:20:28 xp points are finite. 17:20:32 not really 17:20:48 elliptic: true, but should be more finite in the future, imo 17:21:01 the fact of the matter is simply that aux attacks are very weak after early game unless you are a pure unarmed char 17:21:01 i started a branch to redo spell failure stuff, though i never continued it 17:21:08 no need to bring dodging into it 17:21:55 i wonder if we'd be better off removing aux attacks entirely and simply having a chance for each aux to kick in every unarmed attack you make, giving a slaying boost 17:22:08 I would like to at least know how strong aux attax are. I've found one number: 0.7 . But how often do they trigger ? 17:22:31 depends on UC skill 17:22:38 I've already posted in on the wiki (no response) but I would like to be able to press i- to view my "unarmed" item and see its stats. 17:22:41 with offhand punch instead becoming a Captain Kirk style two-handed punch 17:22:45 one thing I don't understand: why exactly tail/hoof attacks would get better if you're skilled about bare-handed combat? 17:22:56 kilobyte: unarmed != bare-handed 17:23:11 it seems to unecessarily promote UC for races like centaurs to me 17:23:11 kilobyte: if you had horns and were fighting for your life in the dungeon, wouldn't you learn how to use them? 17:23:12 unarmed combat is a collection of all unarmed attacks 17:23:18 unarmed = fighting in ways that don't use weapons 17:23:29 kilobyte: Would you like a Barefoot Combat skill ? 17:23:46 Eronarn: yeah, I just see no reason to tie that to UC 17:23:50 elliptic: That definition suggests it should also affect breath weapons, I don't oppose that. 17:23:51 Fighting? XL? 17:23:54 though, for comparison, i do like the way it's done in GURPS: you have a specific martial arts skill, which might cover punching, but it might not (it might be grappling instead) 17:24:02 and stuff like breath weapons have an Innate Attack skill 17:24:08 b0rsuk: breath weapons aren't melee, though 17:24:19 if there were a skill for your racial abilities - stuff that right now scales with XL - that could be interesting 17:24:24 so powerful hooves wouldn't force you to use UC or forfeit them 17:24:30 but i think it'd need more justification 17:24:47 and hooves _are_ powerful. My grandpa's brother died this way. 17:24:57 since there's not all that many races that would use such a skill at all 17:25:12 making aux usage depend on XL in addition to UC skill would be my suggestion 17:25:14 he wanted to stop a horse from leaving the stable, the horse had a different idea 17:25:18 elliptic: they aren't weapon skills either. 17:25:31 elliptic: And we don't have Ranged Combat skill anymore. 17:25:43 b0rsuk: Bows. Crossbows. Slings. 17:25:55 what about making it use XL or UC, whichever is highest 17:25:59 I think that until bows, slings, crossbows and the like become distinctive, they should all use the same weapon skill. 17:26:01 making auxes depend on stats? 17:26:08 like hooves could depend on str 17:26:11 eronarn: uh, UC skill is rarely much higher than XL 17:26:17 if at all 17:26:19 while talons could be dex 17:26:31 but something along those lines, sure 17:26:47 b0rsuk: they are distinctive 17:27:14 monqy: i don't think it's a good idea to make stuff use str/dex until we actually figure out how to make str/dex generally relevant 17:27:48 perhaps the could be changed? What if we made crossbow mindelay bigger than 7, increased both the delay and damage? 17:28:14 bows, slings and crossbows are distinctive 17:28:24 kilobyte: we could do that, but I don't see the need... crossbow, bow, slings already feel quite different 17:28:28 could be improved, sure 17:29:38 but crossbows are already slowest and do most damage per shot 17:30:01 one thing that i'd like is if kobolds showed up with crossbows (about as often as they have blowguns) 17:30:17 right now it's quite hard to do a crossbow character unless you start with one 17:30:41 eronarn: sounds reasonable to me unless crossbow one-shots on d:1 would be a problem 17:30:44 make them even stronger? 17:30:50 (kobolds I mean) 17:31:19 how bad are needle kobods on D:1? it could be a good reference 17:31:38 needle kobolds are already pretty bad, yeah 17:31:44 it's dart kobolds on d:1 mainly 17:31:52 not sure needle kobolds appear on d:1 17:32:20 stuff can have draining weapons on d:1, who cares, it's d:1 17:32:22 they would be pretty deadly 17:33:03 I guess blowgun kobolds can't happen on d:1, yeah 17:33:13 if (one_chance_in(10) && level > 1) 17:33:48 introducing occasional crossbow kobolds starting at d:3 or d:4 or so might be fine, I'm not sure how much damage they would do 17:34:10 10ish? 17:34:30 they'd be pretty inaccurate and slow 17:34:41 also they're kobolds so by then they die in a hit or two 17:34:55 if we're going to have orc wizards there's no reason that should be objectionable even on d:2 17:36:20 big kobolds could pack a punch, though 17:36:32 and most big kobolds come from kobold rooms 17:37:29 in those close conditions, that's rarely going to be worse than one showing up with, say, an elec branded weapon 17:37:34 elliptic: HOw are they distinctive ? Like maces ? I use demon whips if I have more dex, great maces if more str ? 17:37:40 uh, what? 17:37:46 Bows vs crossbows 17:37:51 or slings. 17:38:11 you realize that "demon whips if I have more dex, great maces if more str" isn't how crawl works currently? 17:38:31 elliptic: Right. It's "demon whips all the way" 17:40:23 slings: can be used with a shield fine. bows: have the best stats but you are basically stuck using a big stack of regular unbranded arrows. xbows: do the most damage but you need to use special ammo (steel/silver) 17:41:09 also sling bullets are rarer than the other kinds of ammo because no *taurs drop them, so you really want an ammo-gifting god to use slings most effectively 17:41:35 those are a few ways in which they feel distinctive 17:42:00 also, you know, different races have wildly differing apts for them 17:42:09 unifying the skills would lose that 17:44:30 it bothers me how races like humans and orcs are stuck with bows when choosing hunter 17:44:44 I know starting choices are evil and all but... 17:45:08 !apt ho 17:45:09 HO: Air: -2, Armour: 1, Axes: 2!, Bows: -1, Charms: -1, Conj: 0, Xbows: -1, Dodge: -2, Earth: 0, Evo: 0, Exp: 100, Fighting: 2!, Fire: 0, Hexes: 0, Ice: 0, Inv: 0, Long: 1, Maces: 1, Nec: 0, Poison: -1, Polearms: 1, Shields: 1, Short: 0, Slings: -1, Splcast: -3, Stab: 2, Staves: -1, Stealth: -2, Summ: 0, Throw: 0, Tloc: -2, Tmut: -3, Traps: 0, Unarmed: 1! 17:45:34 orcs seem more like a crossbow using race to me... 17:45:40 I mention orcs because monster orcs use xbows 17:45:53 don't hill orc hunters start with javelins? 17:46:02 oh, do they? 17:46:04 yes! 17:46:16 remember my hohu phase just before tourney? :) 17:46:34 axes and javelins 17:47:00 hohu gets an axe and a javelin, that's why it's so good. I am shocked it isn't recommended 17:47:07 make monster orcs use javelins instead 17:47:08 problem solved 17:47:10 s/a/5?/ 17:48:20 Eronarn: ok. what about Ke and Mi and all the other races with equal bows and crossbows apts that would never want a bow 17:48:52 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:49:10 mi could want a bow 17:49:34 heavy armour 2H weapons with bow for ranged support 17:49:44 if races with equal bows and crossbows apts would never want a bow, then that's something wrong with bow vs xbow balance 17:50:06 however I'm not against the idea of giving hunters a starting choice like melee chars have 17:50:34 st_: huh? 17:50:49 that has nothing to do with what i just said 17:51:19 There was a good interface proposal today for hunters (forum): if you press 'f' while wielding a weapon but having a launcher in slots a or b, then switch to the launcher (unless you're quivering something you could shoot anyway, of course). Likewise, if you melee attack something while wielding a launcher, and there's a weapon in slot a or b, switch to that. 17:52:00 imo that's not actually good because switching takes time 17:52:08 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:09 you don't have to use it 17:52:13 typoing f sounds a bit scary 17:52:17 i do unless you add another option 17:52:41 Eronarn: read about weapon slots a and b 17:53:00 dpeg: Except that most hunters prefer to shoot in melee, and you think it's natural and support that,. 17:53:04 casmith789: if you typo a hjkl key, it is just as bad 17:53:18 Because it's playable, and it's meant to be playable not realistic. So it is. 17:53:19 b0rsuk: if you fire in melee range, no changes. 17:53:46 dpeg: THat's not what you said at 00:45 17:53:56 This is about making the interface smoother, nothing else. A melee/hunter type has to press ' quite often. This could be automated. 17:54:06 if you press 'f' while wielding a weapon but having a launcher in slots a or b, then switch to the launcher (unless you're quivering something you could shoot anyway, of course). Likewise, if you melee attack something while wielding a launcher, and there's a weapon in slot a or b, switch to that. 17:54:33 dpeg: the problem is that in optimal play you are mainly pressing ' outside of combat 17:54:33 b0rsuk: yes? If you 'f'ire in melee range, no switching. 17:55:00 I had great fun in .8 trunk meleeing everything with a bow until that was nerfed by kilobyte :) 17:55:03 elliptic: my play may be bad, but I have to switch from ranged to melee weapon all the time, once the opponent is next to me. 17:55:04 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 17:55:16 But if you attack in melee range, it switches to melee weapon. This isn't preffered by most hunters, righht ? They prefer to shoot in melee. No penalty, no reason not to except against rats, you might want ot save arrow.s. 17:55:42 I would switch to melee weapon before the creature got to me, or keep using the ranged weapon in melee range 17:55:47 There are no tactical reasons to switch, there may be strategical (long-term) reasons. 17:55:50 dpeg: right, but then you want to switch back to the ranged weapon once the monster is dead for exploration 17:55:53 b0rsuk: I said "if you melee attack", not "if you attack in melee range" 17:56:06 As far as interface goes, how about making gold pickup automatic and take 0 turns ? 17:56:09 casmith789: you could keep doing both!? 17:56:17 if melee weapon is better vs creature -> you are better off switching a turn beforehand 17:56:27 b0rsuk: hunters often melee a bit to conserve ammo 17:56:30 b0rsuk: it already is automatic and silent 17:56:51 I have never encountered a situation where picking up several coins would change an outcome of battle, or where I would be thinking hard about picking up more coins versus heading towards a bazaar. 17:56:52 if ranged weapon is better -> you are better off keeping the ranged weapon 17:57:13 b0rsuk: autopickup picks up gold by default 17:57:45 you see, my proposal changes nothing if play as you indicate -- it only does something if you press 'f' without a wielded launcher, or melee-attack with a wielded launcher. But I won't explain another time :) 17:57:58 Autopickup has annoying side effects like pickup up crap I don't need. Or picking up 20 bread rations. 17:58:08 Why does gold pickup even need to cost a turn ? 17:58:12 then adjust your settings 17:58:13 dpeg: i think you missed my point; you're changing what a key does unless you add a new config option 17:58:24 b0rsuk: realism, consistency 17:58:34 what I am saying is that it is weird to automate something that takes multiple turns and is not really what people want 17:58:37 b0rsuk: why would pickup even need to be somehow free? 17:58:41 dpeg: it sounds like a reasonable enough feature to me, yes... personally I don't think I would use it, but it also wouldn't bother me 17:58:49 casmith789: well, at least two people want it 17:58:50 for example, now i can't throw stuff if i have a quivered bow, without swapping to that bow 17:58:51 kilobyte: Because it essentially already is free. 17:58:53 if you had a weapon-sensitive autofight that sounds like it would work better 17:59:08 With autopickup, you need to make a pass over corpses after the battle. 17:59:15 b0rsuk: it can make a difference in places like Abyss 17:59:17 no, you press autoexplore 17:59:21 It's there with chunk management. 17:59:25 this would be the kind of thing that would make me ragequit for a while if i died to it being a default 17:59:25 b0rsuk: or Ctrl-A in tough battles 17:59:27 I wouldn't be using it I think, like elliptic. I'd probably just macro over it like I have with autofight 17:59:29 next you'll be saying you don't use autoexplore 17:59:48 i've died in tome to something similar recently, too 18:00:04 elliptic: No, I specifically disable autopickup before autoexplore, because it will make me backtrack to some shiny orcish flail. 18:00:07 not having an ability on that makes your weapon swaps take no time = swap weapon and lose an action when you weren't expecting it 18:00:09 eronarn: I'm confused by what your objection is 18:00:17 Even though I was already on that square (just without autopickup) 18:00:31 elliptic: i don't want f to switch weapons automatically unless it can be disabled 18:00:38 and putting stuff on a/b is not disabling it 18:01:06 b0rsuk: no, unless you added that flail to autopickup, it would never go there 18:01:12 b0rsuk: well, why were you on that square without autopickup previously? 18:01:23 -!- upsy_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:01:25 this is probably just a personal problem but something I do is play much worse using keys that do things for me even if they are strictly better. I play much worse using autofight than ctrl+dir even though I miss monsters due to them not being there sometimes. I wouldn't have a personal problem with f changing but I certainly wouldn't want the default behaviour to switch to a melee weapon in melee range. 18:01:26 just keep autopickup on, seriously 18:01:34 there might be some unseen weapon under it, but you said you already were there 18:01:59 By the way, can I somehow delete my crawl config ? I have an ancient custom file which is in parts obsolete. 18:02:07 I want the game to generate a fresh one. 18:02:13 you can reset it yourself on cao/cdo config 18:02:14 This is on CDO. 18:02:21 I don't have access to filesystem. 18:02:25 go to advanced options 18:02:40 casmith789: I am not sure you understood the proposal... it is really modest. The switch would only occur if you bump into an adjacent enemy with a wielded launcher. You would keeping to fire just fine. 18:02:58 "O) Reset options" 18:03:00 elliptic: No, I won't keep it on because it annoys me. Likewise, when you play fragile races as opposed to MD's, you don't want to use autoexplore all the time. It's not tactically optipal. 18:03:15 Autoexplore may make you run into open etc. 18:03:18 It often does. 18:03:24 so you don't use autoexplore in those situations 18:03:27 I don't see the problem 18:03:30 So I mostly use /-move, and autoexplore for mopping up. 18:03:46 and if autopickup annoys you, then why do you want gold on autopickup? 18:03:56 since that's what you are asking for essentially 18:04:05 I see. Yes, I misunderstood. 18:04:07 (hint: you can set this yourself) 18:04:24 another interface nicety would be if we could dis/enable autopickup in the \ screen 18:04:29 elliptic: gold pickup is annoying, I have to run over corpses after battle, or pick up manually during battle. It's a common action that has no tactical significance ever. 18:05:08 taking a turn has tactical significance 18:05:13 it may make me use magical staves more if there was a clean interface for attacking when holding one. I think I'd probably still !a engrave though because the extra turn seems pretty vital sometimes 18:05:45 casmith789: losing a turn with that new interface is a plain type (like pressing h when you wanted l) 18:06:01 would it not lose two turns? 18:06:15 switch and melee? 18:06:16 depends on what you want 18:06:18 or would it just switch 18:06:19 1.5 18:06:42 elliptic: About as much tactical significance as picking up arrows - none, except when you're low on ammo. 18:07:06 b0rsuk: right, so next you'll be asking that picking up arrows takes 0 turns 18:07:12 I pick up gold when in danger often enough that it has tactical significance 18:07:17 ie, it's happened 18:07:24 turn gold autopickup off if you like 18:07:38 There's some wisdom in the fact that many games don't have ammo you can pickup (arrows) 18:08:04 I'd make most ammo disposable, and only ammo that is significant could be picked up. Javelins, rocks. 18:08:29 well crawl autopickup doesn't take very long -> press o and you have collected all the ammunition you've used 18:08:31 I don't think the ammo is heavy interface-wise. 18:08:38 it isn't like you have to pick it up manually 18:08:39 elliptic: No, I don't bother with ranged weapons anymore. 18:09:31 "anymore"? when did you last try? 18:09:45 I don't remember. 18:10:11 since these things do get improved with time 18:10:19 But I watched some players who had high Bows skill, etc. One minotaur told me he just switched to melee because it's less fuss. 18:10:42 hm, I recall someone just making a proposal to reduce the fuss. 18:10:51 new autofight takes one keypress per shot, too 18:10:54 elliptic: I could just learn Stone Arrow and deal more damage before I reach Lair. 18:11:02 (but seriously, we have streamlined hunter play since DCSS 0.1) 18:11:11 you realize that ranged combat was buffed a lot in 0.6 and 0.7, right? 18:11:13 Then I could disable these skills and have a character with ranged combat that doesn't annoy me. 18:12:03 -!- syllogism has quit [] 18:15:18 I proposed a ranged combat proposal that made ranged combat more like spells 18:15:40 casmith789: link or recap, please? 18:15:41 How do I set autopickup to not pick up more than 4 rations ? 18:16:02 probably need lua to do it 18:16:20 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:combat:rc&s[]=ranged&s[]=combat 18:16:25 at the bottom 18:16:31 My point exactly. 18:16:41 There are so many little annoyances with autopickup. 18:17:25 most people seem to find autopickup less annoying than non-autopickup, even if it isn't perfect 18:17:46 feel free to write a patched version with rc options and submit it 18:18:01 are you aware of the option that makes autopickup prompt before picking up anything that would burden you? 18:18:52 I'm not most people. 18:19:14 we could tell 18:19:18 I guess I'll need to stick to manual. 18:19:56 casmith789: I think the complaints are not really valid: On (1), yes, the hunter needs to spend some inventory slots and weight on ammunition -- but they gain a lot in return over casters. On (2), you can use Q to choose the quivered item directly -- don't have to use ( and ) when you carry many missiles. 18:20:08 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 18:21:33 (1) retains the weight issue, and the inventory slot system doesn't really much sense at the moment (5 differently stacked arrows takes more space than 300 in one group); (2) does not let you fa, you have to quiver and then fire 18:21:38 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23:01 I've never found running out of slots to be a big issue with ranged chars, but I'd like something along the lines of casmith789's second proposal 18:23:04 casmith789: but firing is faster than casting in the end: f. instead of za. 18:23:13 to reduce the amount of time spent using Q 18:23:18 casmith789: there's a proposal to remove missile enchantments (keeping damage and mulching at the level of current, say, +1). That would nearly completely eliminate the problem: you'd have just different brands. 18:23:44 kilobyte: you don't like the concept of spending EW on missiles? 18:23:46 dpeg: as I understand it, f. would still work with his proposal 18:23:50 Maybe just enchant quivers instead of ammo ? 18:23:53 dpeg: f. then Esc n Esc for "really shoot yourself?" 18:23:57 you'd just also have the option of doing fb. or whatever 18:24:04 You could have them wear out if you must. 18:24:11 elliptic: yes, of course 18:24:20 But it would be like micromanaging a group of allies instead of giving individual orders. 18:24:43 kilobyte: true, in general it is just ff -- which is why I find firing more convenient than casting :) 18:25:28 I prefer f. because the arrows don't go shooting off normally 18:25:34 dpeg: it indeed forces people to choose what they want to enchant. But then, they already need to split the scrolls between the bow and their melee weapon. I'm not that sure about that proposal, but it has some appeal. 18:25:43 ff has issues with ranged combat because you'll lose arrows unnecessarily to water or lava, yeah 18:25:56 elliptic: that is something we can change, though 18:26:11 ff has the same problem with targetting yourself, too 18:26:13 kilobyte: I like the tension between enchanting now or later 18:26:25 kilobyte: which problem is this? 18:26:36 I've never had an issue with targeting myself and I always cast with Z 18:26:42 kilobyte: huh? As long as there is a target in sight (and firing uses sight radius), ff will shoot somewhere 18:27:23 dpeg: right, I just mentioned that idea -- it's a bit radical but has a merit. Like, say, someone's idea to make transmutations permanent or my idea to make berserk force autofight. 18:27:26 casmith789: I thought about applying the firing interface to spells, because it is so convenient :) (But it won't work, because casters use too many spells at once. So no zz in the future.) 18:27:37 you can zz 18:27:52 just assign stone arrow to z! 18:28:10 casmith789: but that's only half the solution -- ff works all the time 18:28:11 dpeg: if you carefully press every key, yeah... but in practice, trying to play fast means you'll get into the self-shotting prompt every a couple encounters 18:28:48 well you are assuming people adjust their spells to the situation but not their arrows 18:29:14 I think an additional issue is z is a lot easier to type than f 18:29:18 casmith789: even if I put my most urgent spell on z, I have to press zz. as opposed to ff :P 18:29:34 casmith789: why is that? (I am using a German keyboard btw.) 18:29:48 I don't know, feels a lot nicer with my left hand 18:30:35 pressing the same key twice to initiate an attack is as good as it gets -- almost as good as bumping for melee 18:30:41 One very evil aspect of ice caves: they tempt you into leaving your potions at the gate, then tempt you with a convenient gate back at the other end :-). Previous time I left without my stash of potions, but not this time. 18:30:45 * kilobyte has the primary conjuration on "l" bound to "zaf"... one key, having to press three makes casting impossibly slow. 18:30:48 german keyboards have y and z switched, correct? 18:30:59 yes 18:31:06 I cast using 3 keys, but I think most people hotkey spells 18:31:25 I cast extremely quickly and memorise keys for all my common spells 18:31:39 I don't use any macros to cast either 18:31:43 just to victory dance 18:31:52 yes 18:32:04 a pet pevee of me: it's a pain to assign spells to letters every single time, especially if you die as often as me 18:32:26 kilobyte: could be configurable, I guess? 18:32:36 when I am using ammo I have to switch ammo a lot which requires a lot of )ing 18:32:37 like, put default letters for spells in your rc? 18:32:51 just not sure how to code that. Static settings would be inflexible, lua would be too hard to use to 99.9% players. 18:33:35 most of my earlygame spells are on their default letters. For instance when I play an air elementalist shock will be on a but when I play a transmuter fulsome will be on a and when I play a zombiemancer animate is on a 18:33:45 (okay, animate dead isn't default, but still) 18:34:14 not sure what is wrong with static settings... you put SPELL:dispel undead:x in your rcfile, and then whenever you memorize dispel undead, it is immediately reassigned to x if that letter is available 18:34:29 wouldn't handle everything but would still be quite useful I think 18:34:39 that sounds nice, except of course dispel should be on U 18:35:04 for something less controversial, how about SPELL:haste:H :P 18:35:06 elliptic: you may be right... when you start switching things like your primary conjuration you are already making an active decision so you can do it by hand 18:35:11 I wish Shields used some other skill. Currently, if I invest in Shields, it feels like a waste if I ever stop using them. 18:35:20 I was joking of course 18:35:34 In Crawl, you marry shields, and marry weapons. 18:35:36 well this is the disadvantage of using shields 18:35:49 I don't mind switching weapon classes 18:35:50 kilobyte: yeah... it could also be configurable further by lua, I suppose, but just something simple like I described could be useful 18:36:09 b0rsuk: go ash and reskill 18:36:09 b0rsuk: and what's wrong with that? 18:36:12 if you use poison magic and forget all your poison spells you have lost the poison skill invested too 18:36:17 elliptic: yeah, I probably think too far, ignoring the KISS principle 18:36:23 it works for everything 18:36:56 monqy: Unfun ? Unrealistic ? 18:37:18 kilobyte: something a little more complicated like giving multiple letters for each spell and using the first available one is also possible 18:37:29 IRL if you trained using a shield for 6 hours and then dropped the shield surely the training would be pretty much worthless until you picked one up 18:38:02 oh wow, if that were an option I don't think I'd be using it :D 18:38:31 elliptic: ah, this could work. The default is same as spell_letter:*:abcdefghijklmnopqrxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ 18:38:40 A more down to earth proposal, I hope. I don't know how it should work, but I would like to inscribe a spell with !c 18:38:52 I don't want to cast Alistair's Intoxication by mistake. 18:39:12 One workaround is to bind it to a capital letter. 18:39:45 There have been times when that would've been useful 18:40:00 yeah... like mummy restoration: I have yet to use it intentionally, once 18:40:33 it's pretty easy to typo and cast something like blink instead of an attack spell. 18:40:48 which happened to me once. I died :( 18:40:55 See, I can post non-controversial stuff too. 18:41:03 Chousuke: that's a reason to put blink on the other side of the keyboard, like I do 18:41:29 I guess. I don't really remap spells that often 18:42:23 Okay, so spells can be remapped. Wouldn't it make sense to map "dangerous" spells to capital letters by default ? 18:42:37 b0rsuk: config option, not default 18:42:41 And let player change it if he wishes ? Not the other way around ? 18:42:54 elliptic: And why ? 18:43:58 because most people don't actually remap their spell letters, and something like this would just be confusing to them 18:44:46 as things are, people at least understand which letter a new spell is placed on 18:44:50 the first available one 18:45:45 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 18:45:45 Bob memorizes Symbol of Torment. Then one day he casts it by mistake and dies. 18:45:49 the !c idea for spells sounds good to me. you might even make it so that only z honours it, and Z doesn't. 18:46:08 that would at least train people to use z :P 18:46:17 Alice memorizes Alistair's Intoxication. It is mapped by default to A. 18:46:43 Bob is like "How do I go back in time and not die ?". Alice is like "How do I remap a key ?" 18:46:54 I map dangerous spells to lowercase letters 18:46:58 Which causes more frustration ? 18:47:25 I'm fine with just !c, except spells can't be inscribed of course. 18:47:33 !c would be nice 18:47:48 I always struggle to find a decent key for Borg. Normally I put it on y 18:47:49 Chousuke: Nice suggestion with z and Z. 18:47:51 or just a flag if there are no other inscriptions 18:48:08 03dolorous * ra3fb4971c73a 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Add punctuation fix. 18:48:15 Chousuke: that upsets me :( I map z to Z 18:48:21 or would if I used z a lot 18:48:31 because Z is just more consistent and therefore better imo 18:49:13 i have Z and z swapped in my config 18:49:40 evilmike: You probably use your root account (or administrator) ? :-) 18:50:07 b0rsuk: people memorize "dangerous" spells a ton more often than they die by accidentally casting them, so your comparison isn't valid 18:50:12 hm? I just switched them in my rcfile 18:51:31 elliptic: This is almost by definition, because a character typically memorizes more than one spell per game, not the other way around. It's a one to many relationship :-). 18:52:03 and also most games are not decided by accidentally casting the wrong spell 18:52:18 I hardly ever cast the wrong spell 18:52:45 however, I did it often enough with blink on b that I switched blink to n 18:53:23 Also most people are not killers or robbers, so police isn't needed. 18:53:41 Good night. 18:53:44 -!- b0rsuk has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:53:58 another example: a fighter learns their first spells midgame, blink and then control teleport, and expects blink to be on a and control teleport on b... and then dies because of going za when they needed a blink and instead wasting a turn 18:54:12 03kilobyte * ra36a34bbabb5 10/crawl-ref/source/map_knowledge.h: Put fields of struct map_cell together so the alignment is more readable. 18:54:15 03kilobyte * r05559b38fc95 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-gear.cc: Give kobolds a tiny chance of getting crossbows. 18:54:48 I don't think spells should be remapped to capital letters by default at all. 18:55:08 current behaviour by default, rc addition sounds nice too 18:55:57 yes, and some means of placing prompts on abilities and spells would be good as well... not sure what the best mechanism is for that 18:57:05 and hands! 18:57:07 yaaay, xbow kobolds 18:57:23 !a on UC would be useful sometimes 18:59:06 Eronarn: 1.2% chance, though 18:59:40 well, there's lots of kobolds in the game, pretty good odds of getting one before you run into yaktaurs 18:59:40 there are a lot of kobolds in a game, I think it will probably come up in most games 19:01:01 casmith789: it seems to be already implemented for felids: "your front paws return to normal proportion. Switching back to main weapon: a - deck of punishment." w- "Really attack while bare-handed?" 19:01:23 that isn't felids 19:01:31 yeah, everyone :p 19:01:33 it has that prompt sometimes 19:01:48 but it doesn't work always especially if I am attacking in the y direction ;p 19:01:56 see also https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3321 19:02:01 * kilobyte was just playing one when this annoyed me the most. 19:02:19 I forgot about decks when reporting it though 19:02:32 I got annoyed by that prompt a lot when I was meleeing with a bow and you didn't fix it you just nerfed bow melee :( 19:02:36 there was a real issue there :P 19:02:53 bow melee is pretty stupid though 19:03:15 it was pretty nice actually 19:04:54 +9 bow of speed = +9 short sword of speed that can't stab but can shoot arrows 19:06:07 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:06:27 where were you getting that bow of speed from :P 19:06:50 the best thing about it was bow melee was trained by bow firing and vice versa 19:07:11 I still think bashrobin was amusing 19:08:12 how if you were a kenku it was better to wield a bread ration than attack normally at xl1 because of the 3 delay and auxes. Not the case anymore, but it was amusing while it lasted 19:14:38 /quit zzz 19:14:42 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 19:41:14 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:41:15 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 19:42:50 -!- mumra has joined ##crawl-dev 20:47:03 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 21:10:48 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 21:10:48 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 21:38:09 03MarvinPA * r356434995f2f 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-other.cc: Make Sublimation of Blood depend on spellpower when cast on chunks/blood potions 21:55:53 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:00:05 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 22:01:27 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 22:11:33 -!- ainsophyao has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:14:06 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:14:27 LuckyNed the Devastator (L24 DrWz) (Vault:8) 22:25:10 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:26:48 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 22:31:57 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:32:12 03MarvinPA * r5476b900d68d 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Comment fix 22:33:46 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 22:41:33 ?@Death Yak 22:41:41 @?Death Yak 22:41:41 death yak (08Y) | Speed: 10 | HD: 14 | Health: 55-95 | AC/EV: 9/5 | Damage: 30 | Res: 06magic(93) | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 1057. 22:41:53 @?Yak 22:41:53 yak (07Y) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 24-52 | AC/EV: 4/7 | Damage: 18 | Res: 06magic(28) | XP: 204. 22:42:07 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 22:43:51 @?Harold 22:43:51 Harold (09@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 9 | Health: 76 | AC/EV: 0/8 | Damage: 12 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: 06magic(60) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1238 | Sp: b.fire (3d17), blink. 22:44:40 hi? 22:48:13 03elliptic * r3851c8c07136 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-data.h: Make Summon Ice Beast level 4. 22:48:19 03elliptic * r59da3d6ce214 10/crawl-ref/source/book-data.h: A few Ice-school spellbook changes. 22:48:20 03elliptic * r172c9e0eb591 10/crawl-ref/ (20 files in 6 dirs): Remove the Conjurer book choice. 22:48:30 03elliptic * r22fa3fd2d71d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc player.cc spl-other.cc): Increase Condensation Shield duration and add a warning before it ends. 22:48:36 yay deleting 500+ lines of code 22:52:07 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:11 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 23:11:30 -!- ainsophyao has joined ##crawl-dev 23:18:32 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:27:39 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 23:31:48 -!- Zaba has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:35:08 -!- Zaba_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:40:26 -!- Zaba_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]