00:01:46 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 00:03:11 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-586-g3302fe6 (32) 00:18:17 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-586-g3302fe6 00:35:54 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:36:01 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:13:35 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:58:51 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 01:58:51 -!- neunon has quit [Changing host] 01:58:51 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 02:07:56 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 02:14:05 -!- Pedjt has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:14:22 -!- Pedjt has joined ##crawl-dev 02:23:38 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:30:53 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:31:38 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:34:04 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 02:44:52 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:49:33 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:00:43 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:10:44 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 03:10:55 hi 03:11:17 why the io library isn't available with lua? 03:11:25 attempt to index global 'io' (a nil value) 03:13:11 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:16:47 because it would be far, far easier to break into setuid installations (fortunately gone) and public servers 03:17:05 ok 03:17:35 so I must wrap printf 03:31:18 galehar, crawl.formatted_mpr? 03:31:40 ohwait, that formatted refers to the tags 03:31:44 * Zaba needs to wake up 03:32:33 I want to ouput on the console, or in a file, not in the message area 03:32:59 crawl.stderr looks like what I need :) 03:33:11 seems like it 03:41:09 -!- neunon has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:42:43 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:03:28 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 04:03:34 perhaps there could be a lua binding for debuglog()? I use it extensively. 04:08:06 Zaba: about the dat/clua/ confusion: what would you say if we renamed the directory? 04:08:07 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:08:30 kilobyte, I wouldn't mind 04:08:45 and yeah, the confusion is nasty 04:08:51 so actually I'd support renaming it 04:10:54 ok, will do 04:11:08 i'm totally for renaming dat/clua 04:11:19 the dichotomy between dat/clua and dat/lua is *stupid*. 04:11:33 i actually had a commit where i started renaming it but i gave up for some reason. 04:11:46 there's dat/lua too, but let's wait before renaming that so breakage due to dat/clua -> dat/dlua is obvious 04:12:03 * due nod 04:12:05 yeah, good idea 04:12:09 "had" not "have somewhere", right? 04:12:41 is there something more than hunting for references and replacing them? 04:13:21 it doesn't appear to me anything even says "clua" without "dat/clua" when referring to the directory, too 04:13:53 it needs a recompile, from what i recall 04:14:01 i did dat/lua > dat/clua and dat/clua -> dat/dlua in my commit 04:14:06 but i confused myself and reverted it locally 04:14:43 yeah, shouldn't rename dat/lua yet 04:17:27 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:46:30 -!- evilmike has quit [] 05:01:50 if a crash happens before character class is set, there's a double crash during the char dump due to it being unable to describe the job 05:02:44 should we be consistent with race ("Yak") and put something funny there, or go for readability ("Unemployed" or something)? 05:13:25 due: about pearl dragons, what is their target environment? 05:14:42 kilobyte: They don't really have one yet, to be honest? Some sort of mountainous,cold environment would be cool. 05:15:27 due: with a single breath they can kill just about any Mu/DS/Gh -- the initial damage plus at least two turns in the clouds 05:15:32 ??pearl dragon[2] 05:15:32 pearl dragon[2/2]: Up to 162 per breath plus 48 per turn in clouds. Cerebov's firestorm is up to 136 (76 with rF+++) + resistable clouds. "Caution advised" is an understatement. 05:16:12 Oh, late, late game. 05:16:19 Pandemonium-esque level of difficulty. 05:18:10 everyone in Pan has at the very least a single dot of rF, which makes firestorm damage 98 max 05:19:31 pearl dragons are very strong but not that sturdy. If you can kill them quickly they won't do too much. Most of the damage is the initial blast which can be dodged by EV and the clouds can be mostly resisted by AC. 05:19:49 I have doubts if current damage is good even for soloish fights the player knows about in advance and has time to prepare 05:20:12 well, we can tone down the initial damae of the blast, of course. 05:20:28 casmith789: yeah but insta-killing people just to a single bad roll is not good 05:20:41 my mds that came across it on d:26 (ie a 3 runer) could deal with the pearl dragon pretty easily 05:21:06 very serious damage for any hybrid and if I was undead I'm sure I would've died 05:21:30 MD = lots of base hp, good Fighting, and no rH- 05:21:34 yes 05:21:44 I mean, MDs can deal with executioners quite easily too 05:22:25 it's an unique damage flavour in that there is no way to obtain resistance to it 05:24:56 possible environments: 1. staged fights only (can be insanely deadly), 2. regular high-end areas (Pandemonium, Zigs) where you can fight multiples 05:32:43 03kilobyte * r4d701c92ff02 10/crawl-ref/ (87 files in 12 dirs): Rename dat/clua to dat/dlua to avoid the clua/dlua confusion. 05:32:53 03kilobyte * rad3763c5b731 10/crawl-ref/source/jobs.cc: Avoid crashes to unknown character class during early crash dumps. 05:32:53 03N78291 * r7c4f8bde1ee5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (areas.cc art-func.h): Halo effect for the mace of brilliance 05:32:54 03kilobyte * r642a996ae957 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: Upgrade the pearl dragon in hallowed_hall to a quokka, re-enable. 05:46:01 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:47:34 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:47:52 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:18:13 catoblepas tile (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4147) by Denzi 06:20:34 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:58:36 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 07:35:50 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 07:53:21 one thing that would help is actually giving monsters that breathe a breath timer 07:53:28 rather than letting them breathe several times in a row 07:59:09 +1 08:01:16 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:01:50 i think right now dragonform breath timer is half of draconian breath timer, right? 08:01:56 those numbers would seem fine to me 08:02:13 and better if it isn't displayed on screen anywhere, so people don't know when it can next breathe again 09:24:45 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 10:12:02 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 10:20:34 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:25:31 -!- nrook has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:27:54 anyone know whether there is some reason why crawl's grammar-processing doesn't like "a Necronomicon"? 10:28:22 in general it doesn't seem to want to put "a" before a capital letter 10:28:25 which is annoying 10:31:11 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:39:20 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 10:50:40 03dolorous * r74693405cb7d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Add punctuation fixes. 10:56:19 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 10:56:27 -!- blabber has quit [Client Quit] 10:59:31 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:01:19 -!- blabber has quit [Client Quit] 11:02:57 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:03:47 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:04:14 -!- blabber has quit [Client Quit] 11:05:14 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 11:06:22 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:09:52 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 11:14:37 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:20:55 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:46:09 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:50:27 03elliptic * r676d0c3be27b 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/ (des/portals/trove.des dlua/lm_trove.lua): Fix a couple of trove bugs. 11:50:38 03elliptic * r025e7cf98fd3 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Make the prompt for leaving the dungeon not be triggered by portal vaults. 12:09:50 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 12:10:41 kilobyte: you broke the troves that ask to see runes when you goldified them... any thoughts about the best way to fix this? 12:11:29 don't let troves ask for runes? 12:11:41 I guess probably we should have a clua function to check which runes a player has 12:11:42 or just ask for runes and check to see if the rune in question has been goldified? 12:11:45 zaba: uh, that's not fixing it 12:11:48 why remove that? 12:18:18 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 12:25:05 Tab key presses executed two times with Opera (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4148) by slowcar 12:35:37 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:36:02 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:49:51 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:52:31 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 12:56:09 03elliptic * r72c70e57196a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/dlua/lm_trove.lua l_you.cc): Fixed rune troves to handle goldified runes. 12:58:48 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 13:03:43 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:18 scroll of acquirement gives staff of energy to a mummy. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4149) by Mental Mouse 13:16:04 -!- b0rsuk has joined ##crawl-dev 13:22:24 Anybody home ? I have a couple of ideas and I need feedback. 13:23:20 They could be powers of a forge god or perks of high-level Evocations. I'm undecided. 13:26:09 03dolorous * r5c4a0be8648e 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Add formatting fixes. 13:27:02 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:26:11 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 14:42:39 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:00 You block the giant frog, the hound and the worker ant. 14:54:49 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:53 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:34:51 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:44:55 !learn edit fr[1] s|/,|/| 15:44:56 fr[1/3]: Crawl-speak for Feature Request, a reference to the development page for Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup where players can add input as to what they want to see in the game. http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ but please check the archives first, as there are a few ideas that have been posted and rejected many many times. 16:22:31 -!- b0rsuk has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:23:34 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 16:37:58 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 16:43:43 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 17:04:33 03dolorous * r6de7d0ba9007 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Add minor cosmetic fixes. 17:25:17 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:27:47 reaching for all polearms: it has been talked about a lot of times... should we try that? 17:32:21 I'd be in favour of that combined with a nerf for the 1-handed polearms 17:33:31 you mean, something about ~5% of tourney winners using 2-handers of all kinds? 17:34:14 I just mean that the 1-handed polearms are already very good and that they would need a nerf to compensate for getting reaching 17:34:19 and the 2-handed ones wouldn't 17:34:43 yeah 17:34:44 for the general 2-handed vs 1-handed issue, I'd nerf bucklers 17:34:54 you shouldn't be able to eliminate all penalties from one 17:34:58 at least not so easily 17:35:03 and shields in general, too? 17:35:47 seriously? bucklers were just recently made good - are they that much too good? 17:35:48 well, I'm not convinced shields and large shields are really the problem given how much of an investment it is to use one without penalty 17:36:06 napkin: it is more that everyone uses one without thinking 17:36:08 ??buckler 17:36:09 bucklers have been awesome since .6 17:36:09 buckler[1/1]: Any character who isn't using a 2-handed weapon or transmutations should get one of these (and upgrade to a larger shield when skill gets high enough). 17:36:14 buckler is supposed to be a really small shield, it having no penalties for a skilled user makes sense, but providing more protection than a plate armour does not 17:36:25 it doesn't provide more protection than plate 17:36:28 no penalties at all? 17:36:35 not sure why that has to be the case 17:37:12 a wizard shouldn't just be able to pick up a buckler with no questions asked 17:38:47 then add penalty to spellcasting when wielding a buckler? nerfing it generally is not so cool, condering many rely on it (halfing hunter, all chars without repell missiles, etc) 17:39:15 it should definitely get penalties 17:39:21 surely the penalties themsleves constitute the nerf? 17:39:22 casmith789: SH was rebalanced to show values "same in scale as AC and EV". This is not exact, but whoever did the scaling (by?) at least attempted that. 17:39:44 elliptic: that wizard has to get 5 or 9 skill to offset that 17:39:55 5 skill for most, which is really simple 17:39:55 plate gives 40 ac and gdr, bucklers get 13 sh and no gdr, and sh is weaker than ac 17:39:57 to remove the penalties from buckler was a great design decision in the past 17:40:05 and even with only 2 skill there is no casting penalty if you are using a robe 17:40:25 robes are really weak anyway 17:41:32 casmith789: 10 ac vs 13 sh with no skill, 22 ac vs 31 sh with 27 skill 17:41:52 sorry? are we talking about the same game? 17:41:53 kilobyte: plate does get enchanted to +10, to be fair 17:42:34 casmith789: uhm, try wearing a plate? With no armour skill you get 10 ac. 17:42:38 and armour skill also helps boost your AC from other items 17:42:54 well wear what a normal char would wear 17:43:15 yeah, but you can wear the other items with the buckler too, so it doesn't make a difference 17:43:22 enchantment does 17:43:24 +2 unbranded buckler vs +8 plate 17:43:44 with 5 sh and 18 armour 17:44:05 wow, you play heavy-armour char? :-O 17:44:11 sure 17:44:16 I played loads in the tournament 17:44:18 31 ac 34 sh 17:44:22 sure?! hehe 17:44:35 I thought heavy armour was good again now? I keep losing track 17:44:41 it gets alternately buffed and nerfed so much 17:44:43 anyway this discussion is sort of beside the point... whether buckler actually provides as good protection as plate isn't really relevant 17:44:51 !lg . won start>=2011-05-01 s=char 17:44:51 9 games for casmith789 (won start>=2011-05-01): 1x MDBe, 1x SpWr, 1x CeHe, 1x MfVM, 1x GhMo, 1x SETm, 1x TrGl, 1x DGAE, 1x MiFi 17:44:58 it clearly requires a lot less sacrifice 17:44:59 yeah... you can wear BOTH 17:45:04 5 of those are heavy armour 17:45:09 it is.. but considering the combos (race/background) the chance to play heavy-armour is so small ;) 17:46:02 also.. it's boring :> 17:46:09 * Napkin shuts up * 17:46:24 currently the formula for penalties from a shield are based on stuff like (1 or 3 or 5) - (shield skill)/5 17:46:24 kilobyte: with 5 sh and a +2 buckler you get 34 sh? 17:46:34 was it seriously buffed for .9? 17:47:12 I'd be for retaining a slight bonus for small buckler users. 17:47:25 paplaukes (L5 HaAs) (D:3) 17:47:37 due: a bonus for small buckler users? you mean halflings and such? 17:47:40 casmith789: human, +3 buckler, 27 skill 17:47:44 currently they don't have any such bonus 17:47:45 i can't stand this 17:47:47 -!- Napkin has left ##crawl-dev 17:47:54 halflings, kobolds, spriggans, etc. 17:47:57 no-one uses a buckler and 27 skill, that makes no sense 17:47:59 elliptic: well, not retaining, gaining, thoguh. 17:48:13 you get no penalties with a large shield 17:48:19 the thing is: a buckler is 20cm, a regular shield 100cm, a tower shield bigger than a man's height 17:48:45 (RL sizes, what counts is the area not the length so square the proportions) 17:49:22 kilobyte: so you think a shield should provide substantially more protection than a buckler? (it currently doesn't for most characters) 17:49:26 casmith789: that's why I mentioned the 0 skill case first. At that point you have no enchantment either. 17:49:41 elliptic: yes, by a lot 17:49:46 I don't know about you but my shields are hardly ever enchanted 17:49:55 not enough ea 17:50:33 nerfing buckler SH value could help I guess 17:51:04 base sh values: 5 buckler, 8 shield, 13 large shield 17:51:05 as I said earlier, I'm not convinced shield or large shield are too good 17:51:46 Make buckler 3 or 4 then. 17:52:02 I'm thinking about 3... would that be too drastic? 17:52:31 probably a little bit. 17:52:45 What's the square area of a buckler compared to a normal shield? 17:53:01 depends on the shape, it's quite hard to compare 17:53:07 Yeah. 17:53:15 how much SH would a +0 buckler with 5 skill and "average" str/dex give, with base SH 3? 17:53:15 But on average, a buckler is half the size of a normal shield, at least? 17:53:21 even worse, the word "buckler" meant different things in different times 17:54:15 https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:38-svaghi,_lotta,Taccuino_Sanitatis,_Casanatense_4182..jpg 17:54:53 Yeah, almost like a kind o fist covering. 17:55:05 In which instance it's perhaps a third of the the size of a normal shield. 17:55:32 How much would reducing the base SH to 4 impact the SH with sk27, etc? 17:55:40 you won't get sk27 17:55:49 the word "shield" has an insane range... covering both bucklers and tower shields 17:56:22 elliptic: also true 17:57:09 let's leave bucklers to bucklers and tower shields to "large shield"... there's a lot to argue about, but let's use Greek imagery, where a round shield has the diameter of a man's leg 17:57:42 well, the whole point of bucklers is that they're tiny 17:58:18 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:58:50 yeah... that's why I'm arguing for leaving them relatively easy to nullify penalties but greatly reducing the defensive value 18:00:31 another idea: what if we made buckler protection change with your size? 18:00:51 it already effectively does to some extent because of the str/dex dependence 18:00:59 but we could make that more direct, yeah 18:01:17 yes 18:01:24 this is basically what i was trying to say earlier. 18:01:28 smaller races should benefit more from a shield of the same size but also need more skill to eliminate penalties 18:01:39 only my capacity to accurately express it was shitty 18:01:41 note that halflings already tend to get huge SH in a buckler, though 18:01:46 since they have huge dex 18:02:39 if you're "three feet" tall as a spriggan, a buckler can give you a decent coverage 18:02:51 I tought spriggans were tinier than three feet? 18:03:02 just checked my last Ha winner (HaIE of kiku), and I had 28 SH with a +3 buckler with only 14 skill 18:03:08 FR: spriggans can only wear robes if they get cut down to size by a sword! 18:03:15 not sure what "foot" it is: US foot, some other foot? There's quite a discrepancy of those, 25..35 cm. 18:03:39 30cm is my average conversion rate. 18:04:13 no one but Americans use feet anymore, so it's probably that 18:06:07 it is ~30cm. 3 feet in a yard, 1760 feet in a mile, 1609m in a mile 18:06:16 "oh, that makes sense!" 18:06:43 1760 yards* 18:08:21 halflings just get huge ac/ev/sh 18:10:20 a good table: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fußmaße1.jpg; I guess spriggans use English value 18:10:57 what about this: bucklers give 3-size SH 18:12:02 5 for spriggans, 4 for halflings, 3 for humans/elves, 2 for centaurs 18:12:29 ok 18:12:44 halflings/kobolds are insane in 0.8 but they were severely hit by both of changes to hp so this might work 18:12:56 well, that would still be a nerf to them 18:13:10 just more of a nerf to everyone else (except spriggans) 18:13:48 that sounds fine, what about using 8-size for regular shields then? 18:14:17 seems like the effect should still be present for larger shields, just proportionally much smaller 18:14:47 (and they'd still be harder to use for small races) 18:22:19 on a different subject, here's my current best idea for what to do with crusader: 18:22:41 idea is that they don't really need to start with a full-size book like other casting classes 18:22:58 since they are supposed to be killing stuff with melee anyway 18:23:17 and there are lots of charms spells scattered over lots of books, so they can find more spells lots of places 18:23:45 so just give them 4-5 low level spells and buff their starting skills/equipment a little if necessary 18:24:02 my suggestion: freezing aura, repel missiles, poison weapon, regeneration 18:28:30 back to shields: 18:28:33 ??shield[3] 18:28:33 shield[3/6]: You need 5/15/25 skill to eliminate speed, damage, and casting penalties for bucklers/shields/large shields for normal races (including draconians, except they can't use bucklers), 7/21/- for kobolds and halflings, 9/-/- for spriggans, 3/9/15 for nagas and centaurs, -/9/15 for trolls and ogres. 18:28:55 making regular shields 8-size would make them better for halflings 18:29:38 this could be counteracted by changing the size factor from 5+2*size to 5+3*size 18:30:04 not sure if -/6/10 for ogres would be that good 18:30:15 yeah, not sure 18:30:43 I'm not too worried about making regular shields better for halflings given that currently there is little reason to use one ever 18:31:26 options: 1. bucklers 3-size; 2. bucklers 3-size, regular shields 8-size; 3. as 2. but with enlarged racial factor 18:31:40 pick one folks 18:32:45 -!- syllogism has quit [] 18:35:24 ok, no answer, I'll go with option 1½ then: bucklers 3-size, regulars 8-size/2 18:36:26 that sounds fine to me 18:38:36 [00:30] I'm not too worried about making regular shields better for halflings given that currently there is little reason to use one ever <-- um, sorry? 18:39:03 try it out, you'll usually get like 4 SH more, in exchange for a melee penalty 18:39:10 ha + shield is really strong 18:39:11 since 21 shield skill is hard to get 18:39:16 you mean Ha + buckler 18:39:25 both 18:39:49 is there any game ever in which middle-end armour is balanced? 18:39:56 sure 18:39:59 crawl 18:40:03 DA is good 18:40:18 but, say, chain mail isn't 18:40:27 that isn't middle end armour 18:40:36 well, it's neither a robe nor plate 18:40:39 it's that that I'm trying to get at 18:40:59 light armours {robe, leather, troll leather} mid armour {sda, pda, da, ida} heavy armour {plate, cpm, gda} 18:41:38 just because there is a school of armours "early armours until you find plate" doesn't mean that mid armours aren't good 18:41:59 well even plate isn't always good to go into straight away 18:43:30 I guess the curve for loss of EV for middle armour is too steep 18:44:03 people either pick EV but no AC or AC but no EV (until the skill gets very high) 18:44:37 if the curve was gentler, having half EV half AC would be a good option 18:44:46 half ev half ac is a great option 18:44:55 it's even viable on ogres which shows how good it is 18:45:00 people just don't believe me 18:45:09 I mean scale and chain, not pda 18:45:15 casmith789: add it to ??protip 18:45:17 sda but sure 18:45:41 kilobyte: scale and chain just don't give enough benefit to be worth not being able to cast spells 18:45:49 since early on you won't be able to 18:46:00 casmith789: what does sbl stand for, btw? 18:46:02 I made the armour proposal make normal armours like dragon armours but 1 worse but people didn't like it for some reason 18:46:18 ??sbl 18:46:18 short blades[1/2]: Crosstrains with Long Blades (good for HE fighters etc). Highly specialised for stabbing, does poor damage in normal combat. Easy to find good ones very early, due to monsters. Sabre is best common. 18:46:30 also early on you can't get any decent EV in scale or chain 18:46:39 sda is in the heavy land for me... 10 AC -5 EV, just a notch lighter than plate 18:46:50 um it's 7 ac -2 ev 18:46:56 later on you can but the difference between 4 EV and 6 EV isn't very significant 18:47:20 storm is definitely heavier yes 18:47:22 difference between 5 EV and 12 EV is much more significant, and that's more what it is later on 18:47:25 but storm isn't really good 18:47:49 it's like plate with relec I guess 18:48:31 so as I see it, the problem with scale and chain (and even ring) is that it is too hard to work past the penalties to get any real benefit early on, and then later on you'll likely have dragon armour anyway 18:49:30 we could pretty safely buff scale/chain by 1 AC and remove banded, though 18:49:39 ring (4, -2) --> 6, -2 (sda 7, -2 for comparison) chain (5, -3) --> 7, -3 (da 8, -3 for comparison) 18:49:54 buff them so they are worse than the DAs by one point 18:50:13 then you'd get splint at 9, -5 which would be fun and viable 18:50:30 9, -5 is too much like plate 18:50:33 I like having that gap 18:50:52 gap between "worthless" and "useful"? 18:51:13 I'd say 5,-2 and 6,-3 and 7,-4 and 8,-5 and 10,-6 18:51:37 I think even so the normal armours won't be viable really 18:51:44 I guess a good randart could change that 18:52:06 could change plate to make it need a higher investment 18:52:26 10,-7? 18:52:27 6,-2 and 7,-3 and 8,-4 and 9,-5 and 11,-7 18:52:34 or that 18:52:53 10 and 11 are basically the same anyway with the new formulas 18:53:12 not really any more the same than 9 and 10 18:53:25 or 8 and 9 or whatever 18:53:30 18 str is relatively easy to get but 21 requires a much bigger investment 18:53:36 yes 18:54:02 so people may actually use splint if it is 8, -5 as now 19:14:37 03kilobyte * r01204ecb302d 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-spll.h: No paralysis on the Enchantress, sleep is enough. 19:14:42 03kilobyte * r35cb94ba46b6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files): Count completed Ziggurats, and record deepest level reached. 19:14:42 03kilobyte * r085b0f8f26e2 10/crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc: Staves of energy are useless for mummies, and (temp) liches and hungry Vp. 19:14:50 03kilobyte * r5cc564c9cd38 10/crawl-ref/source/ (itemprop-enum.h itemprop.cc monster.cc player.cc): Nerf bucklers. 19:14:50 03kilobyte * r8efb8be36aae 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Reduce the stat bonus for small shields. 19:17:28 score for Ziggurats: how much would be fitting? 19:18:24 I'm pondering 50k*max depth + sum(1m/N) for Nth completed one 19:18:41 possibly multiplied by turns/100k as a time factor 19:19:01 score? what? 19:19:05 ziggurats shouldn't affect score 19:19:47 well, it depends on what score's meant to be an indicator of 19:19:56 Crawl at the moment rewards 15-runer speedruns, specifically 19:20:04 multiplying by turns/100k as a time factor seems wrong 19:20:05 NetHack rewards time spent killing monsters, probably by mistake 19:20:17 er, 100k/turns, of course 19:20:17 and AceHack and Rogue try to reward effort spent specifically towards increasing score 19:20:32 AceHac? 19:20:36 my NetHack variant 19:20:44 ziggurats are still generally viewed as an unbalanced work in progress, as far as I can tell 19:20:47 aiming towards a greatly improved interface, with similar gameplay 19:20:49 this means they shouldn't affect score 19:21:02 score being about speedruns is great 19:21:10 the best gameplay gets the highest score 19:21:24 well, if you consider speedruns the best gameplay 19:21:32 I do 19:21:40 the way I look at it, speedruns and scoreruns can be different, to add replayability to the game while letting people measure it both ways 19:22:02 sure. that's what realtime runs are for :) 19:22:36 I tried to make it nontrivial to work out the best strategy for maxing out score in Ace 19:22:48 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 19:22:50 I don't think anyone has tried yet 19:23:13 kilobyte: if you really want to have ziggurats affect score, though, I'd say just use the sum(1m/N) 19:23:37 what is m? just some constant? 19:23:40 since the first term rewards doing zig:1 and nothing else, which means rewarding people who happen to have a zig generate 19:23:44 million presumably 19:23:58 adding a zig rune would deal with score for zigs quite nicely 19:24:04 although I understand that that was rejected 19:24:10 at least until zigs are better balanced 19:24:13 zig rune is even worse than zig affecting score, yeah 19:24:33 zig speedruns will be awesome to watch though :( 19:24:54 don't want to force everyone who wants an allruner to play a ziggable build and then scum pan for a zig 19:25:23 put a demonic at the end 19:25:53 casmith789: now that's an interesting idea 19:26:12 it'd be easy enough to make one zig guaranteed, fwiw 19:26:19 and probably not hurt the game much 19:26:26 yeah, that's the easier problem to solve 19:27:08 demonic or abyssal 19:27:16 abyssal would make less sense 19:27:32 although abyssal would make an awesome solution to the boredom of looking for the abyss rune 19:27:36 it would mean zig speedruns might be viable :p 19:27:42 for a ziggable character, who probably has no issue with the abyss 19:28:00 you could make it work by putting a portal to the abyss at the end of a zig that always lands you right on a rune 19:43:10 elliptic: the first term means you get some for a partial Zig 19:43:57 so it's not just a big reward for completion but nothing if you're not all-powerful (completing a Ziggurat was planned to be humanly impossible) 19:44:08 kilobyte: right but the formula shouldn't reward just doing zig:1 19:44:45 because that's trivial so you are giving a boost to people who spend 20 turns entering a zig and just leaving it immediately... and getting a (cheap) zig isn't guaranteed 19:45:03 I wouldn't give any reward at all until people get to zig:10 or so 19:45:10 50k is little, but you might be right 19:45:17 but as I said earlier, I really think scoring for ziggurats is a bad idea at is 19:45:29 at least make it so that you don't have to scum for one in pan most games 19:45:38 well, it depends on what we want score to show 19:46:17 most people already look just at urune and ignore score 19:46:20 I'd rather announce number of zigs completed separately somehow 19:46:23 !lg * won 19:46:24 4695. duncan the Demonologist (L24 DSSu), worshipper of Sif Muna, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2011-06-19, with 1078700 points after 195292 turns and 38:38:23. 19:46:46 "escaped with the Orb and 3 runes after completing 2 ziggurats" 19:47:05 I see a lot of !hs, or at least it used to be cool to check/compete for highscores in the past 19:47:11 but really I don't think zigs are even ready for that 19:47:55 I added the count of Zigs today, so at the very least they can be included into Sequell's queries (once the fields get added to the database) 19:51:32 speaking of the database, I was going to add a milestone or two that would be useful for the tourney (and nice to have in general) 19:51:41 mainly one for reaching max piety with a god 19:52:22 but it looks to me like the database could get pretty confused if sequell hasn't yet been taught how to extract a "noun" from a milestone... is this right? 19:53:33 not sure, greensnark knows but he's AWOL 19:53:49 he didn't even respond yet about Mac builds of 0.8.1 19:54:02 and no one else knows how to build them 20:05:58 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:07:05 I wonder if having a mostly fixed set of monster sets wouldn't be better 20:07:24 with a random factor and some shuffling so you don't know what's next 20:07:42 but with a deep pan lord level basically guaranteed 20:08:29 that sounds nice, yeah... no need to guarantee anything really, just smoothing out ziggurat difficulty would be good 20:09:08 and holy levels are broken 20:09:31 broken because TSO trivializes them or something else? 20:09:38 Zig:25: 34 daevas and 30 angels 20:09:50 they are certainly dangerous but no more so than some of the other sets 20:09:58 Crawl could do with some more minor holy monsters, I imagine 20:10:13 say, the air one... dozens of titans 20:10:17 how do you avoid smittage? 20:10:30 kill them at range or run around them and leave 20:11:32 the daevas aren't fast, so it isn't hard to keep there from being too many in sight at once if you have a reliable way of killing them near edge of LoS 20:11:42 repeated firestorms at the edge of LOS might work, so does anything with death's door 20:11:55 I've also done stuff like refrigeration + (old) makhleb healing 20:12:30 and I watched a mummy with firestorm handle one such level really easily the other day 20:13:42 back when TSO blasting was actually dangerous, the levels were pretty unfair... but now they aren't any more awful than a pan lord level or a mummy level if you lack rTorment 20:14:46 or air/fire levels can be nasty too 20:15:28 dozens of orbs of fire... no good way of killing them quickly, and so many bolts of fire and fireballs hurt even through rF+++ 20:16:42 firestorm annihilates them, I guess it still does after the nerf 20:17:26 uh, I wouldn't say it annihilates them, though the vortices do help a lot 20:17:36 but firestorm is a fairly inefficient way of killing them 20:18:13 a buff firestormer with a strong MP regeneration source can usually do a zig though 21:02:56 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 21:05:05 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:12:22 Eronarn: now that DG -> Dg and DS -> Ds, OP -> Op? 21:16:23 Wensley: yup 21:17:14 Wensley: by the way, someone babbled around to Denzi about catoblepases, and with the tile created I'm afraid you have no way out :p 21:17:49 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 21:18:06 kilobyte: I was the one who put the tile request on the forum! :) and I even asked the latin experts in ##crawl-offtopic what the proper plural is (catoblepae) 21:18:21 I am so all over this monster, just need to get the petrifying clouds working and it should be done 21:19:21 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:20:46 tiles for the clouds would be needed, too 21:20:59 too bad I have not the slightest clue how they should look 21:21:18 I was thinking white clouds, since my flavor for them at the moment is "a cloud of calcifying dust" 21:21:23 but I think brown is also free 21:23:00 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 21:26:09 could be too easy to confuse with fire and yellow smoke 21:26:49 I guess something different might be good... I mean a texture and not uniform colours 21:26:58 but I'm not an artist 21:27:54 anyway, I play console not tiles so as far as I am concerned the famous question mark tile would be enough :p 21:31:35 one thing though that I found while testing catoblepae, that I think is a bug: steam dragons breathe steam with the message "the steam dragon throws steam!" rather than "the steam dragon breathes steam!" and I can't figure out why, because monspell.txt appears to be in order 21:32:46 Toad skeleton tile improvement (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4150) by Robsoie 21:32:48 so I just learned something strange about skill training 21:33:29 apparently crosstraining works by making you get twice as many skill points for the same cost 21:33:51 whereas antitraining works by making the same skill points cost twice as much 21:34:23 this has the effect that antitraining doesn't actually have any effect on how quickly a skill trains if you have lots of xp in your pool, just how much xp it uses up 21:34:51 wow, just looked at denzi's catoblepas tile, and it's great. 21:35:04 so if you have really high fire skill and ice and charms are both at zero (and have the same apt), then victory dancing ozo's armour will cause ice and charms to raise at the same rate 21:37:51 is it worse that it takes more xp rather than time while victory dancing? 21:39:51 I feel like it should take both more xp and more time 21:40:12 it doesn't feel right for it to raise at the same rate as non-antitrained skills 21:45:39 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:46:49 for the early game though, the time cost is paid up-front when you consider the time it takes to get the xp. and for the endgame when xp is everywhere, making it take more time would just make people vd for twice as long 21:50:39 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 22:04:29 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:04:48 -!- hoody has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:05:54 wensley: it effectively makes the antitraining invisible though 22:06:35 in the example I gave, victory dancing two skills at once, there was no way to tell which one had antitraining 22:07:46 this is different from how having a lower apt would work, which is what antitraining is supposed to be like 22:09:05 I agree that it should be more visible if possible, but it's not really much less visible than training skills normally, for which you have to go to the m screen to visualize your progress (and when you're there, you'll see the antitraining malus next to the skill). perhaps there could be a message when you train a skill with an antitraining penalty? though I guess that could get spammy. and... 22:09:06 ...how is antitraining going to work with the new skill system? 22:10:30 practicing doesn't matter unless you're using the automated mode 22:10:46 xp is everything 22:11:20 yeah, if new skill system just evenly divides up the xp then that bypasses this issue 22:12:17 or rather solves it, since then if you have both ice and charms on in my example then charms will raise more quickly than ice 22:29:24 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:20 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 22:33:53 -!- hoody has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:00 -!- hoody has joined ##crawl-dev 23:00:06 jewbanker the Thrower (L13 OgWn) (Lair:4) 23:28:21 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:47:32 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Leaving]