00:03:03 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-574-g8309b64 (32) 00:17:45 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-574-g8309b64 00:20:32 -!- djinni has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:22:31 -!- Eronarn has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:22:36 -!- Eronarn has joined ##crawl-dev 00:23:17 -!- ivan has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:32:25 -!- djinni has joined ##crawl-dev 00:32:25 -!- ivan has joined ##crawl-dev 00:32:49 -!- ivan has quit [Client Quit] 00:32:49 -!- djinni has quit [Client Quit] 00:34:06 -!- ivan has joined ##crawl-dev 00:34:06 -!- djinni has joined ##crawl-dev 00:35:36 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:35:58 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:17:53 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:42:49 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:57:00 LuckyNed the Conqueror (L26 OgBe) (Crypt:3) 02:26:07 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:30:05 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:35:49 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:50:05 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 03:08:53 When I replaced the xp penalty by a skill penalty for Ash's wrath, I removed any mean of reducing penance. oups. 03:08:53 galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 03:09:11 How should you reduce Ash's penance? By exploring? By time? 03:09:18 !messages 03:09:18 (1/1) MarvinPA said (4h 58m 18s ago): it looks like ash's xp penalty wrath was removed in commit df6069d36c7590, meaning his penance is permanent again (permanent -4 to all skills). is that intended? 03:09:35 not intended 03:18:59 -!- hoody_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:20:11 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:22:32 -!- casmith789 has quit [*.net *.split] 03:22:32 -!- herself has quit [*.net *.split] 03:22:32 -!- lorimer has quit [*.net *.split] 03:25:55 -!- herself has joined ##crawl-dev 03:25:55 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:25:55 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 03:29:06 -!- herself has quit [*.net *.split] 03:29:06 -!- casmith789 has quit [*.net *.split] 03:29:07 -!- lorimer has quit [*.net *.split] 03:34:44 -!- herself has joined ##crawl-dev 03:34:44 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:34:44 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 04:17:55 -!- fdel has joined ##crawl-dev 04:19:59 When under silence (e.g. from a silent spectre), the message "Magic scrolls do not work when you're silenced!" appear only after you select a scroll. Shouldn't it be displayed as soon as you type "r", especially if no spellbook/tome of destruction is in the inventory? 04:21:25 I don't think so. It always annoys me when special cases take fewer keypresses than normal situations 04:21:47 in the most part it will cause you to typo because you don't wait 2 seconds between pressing ri for example 04:22:02 *r and i 04:22:05 well if you can't read a scroll, why bother wasting time/keypresses? 04:22:07 yeah, agreed 04:22:28 exactly, you've pressed r which means you're already making the mistake 04:22:28 that sort of thing once caused me to use mummy restoration when silenced (was trying to give a command to an ally) 04:22:39 so you're almost certain to follow it up 04:22:55 one of the most common causes of me typoing badly is not being able to use a blink scroll 04:23:01 evilmike: isn't that an ability? 04:23:16 because then I automatically move about three squares before looking 04:25:56 it's an ability, but "taf" will normally tell allies to attack a target, and "taf" when silenced will fail, then use the ability on "f", which for mummies is the revitalization thing 04:26:08 which costs you a max MP point 04:26:36 Well typing too fast is a player issue only IMO 04:26:50 That's no excuse for not using a consistent interface 04:27:37 I think there should be a --more-- prompt by default on that, its something i've been meaning to put in my rcfile for a while 04:27:42 yeah 04:28:06 also there should be a --more-- on getting something blocked by blurry vision by default definitely 04:28:43 Blurry vision is different: the chance to read the scroll are not 0% 04:29:41 it was an unrelated point I was meaning to bring up but keep forgetting 04:29:53 good point. 04:31:39 Player ghosts can't use ranged weapons. If you have one when meeting Mara, wield it instead of a bread ration. You'll be able to use it while your illusion won't. 04:31:50 We really need to fix ghosts being unable to use ranged weapons. 04:33:47 that would be a good idea yeah 04:36:32 When silenced, no scroll selection screen should be displayed (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4141) by Nexos 04:42:24 or start with emptying a big wand on Mara, it does good damage and doesn't interfere with wielding that banana 04:43:25 he'll summon the illusion in a few turns anyway and then you'll switch. Unlike ranged weapons, this actually works for most chars. 04:44:27 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 04:45:38 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:48:58 sure. But we still need to fix ghosts being unable to use ranged weapons. 04:55:19 Yeah, that'd be nice. 05:00:42 galehar, Keskitalo: is there an easy way to display tiles in formatted_scroller? 05:01:03 I have no idea. :) 05:01:32 well, there's few people with a clue about tiles 05:05:54 !seen felirx 05:05:55 I last saw felirx at Sat May 21 12:58:21 2011 UTC (3w 5d 21h 7m 21s ago) quitting with message Remote host closed the connection. 05:19:11 -!- due has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:25:30 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:27:42 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:30:09 03galehar * r622b11771f7d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (godwrath.cc godwrath.h player.cc): Fix Ashenzari's wrath being permanent. 05:30:19 03galehar * r1a425e041e03 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Cap the skill penalty of Ashenzari's wrath to skill_level / 2. 05:35:06 !lg * nrune>urune s=nrune 05:35:07 8228 games for * (nrune>urune): 3170x 3, 1526x 1, 1244x 4, 634x 2, 457x 15, 402x 5, 132x 6, 96x 16, 94x 7, 65x 9, 63x 8, 59x 17, 42x 14, 35x 10, 32x 18, 31x 11, 30x 13, 20x 12, 19x 20, 16x 19, 10x 21, 6x 24, 5x 25, 5x 22, 4x 23, 4x 26, 2x 40, 2x 30, 2x 28, 2x 50, 1x 31, 1x 42, 1x 267, 1x 34, 1x 114, 1x 33, 1x 111, 1x 43, 1x 72, 1x 67, 1x 29, 1x 61, 1x 56, 1x 27, 1x 54, 1x 51, 1x 47, 1x 46, 1x 45 05:36:58 godwrath.cc: In function ‘void ash_reduce_penance(int)’: 05:36:58 godwrath.cc:1465:16: error: return-statement with a value, in function returning `void' [-fpermissive] 05:37:02 (fixed already) 05:37:28 I just pushed the fix 05:37:31 ow :p 05:38:05 03galehar * r2f69e530a643 10/crawl-ref/source/godwrath.cc: Fix compilation. 05:38:45 yay, byte to byte identical commit, including message 05:38:55 :) 05:39:42 ok, buh bye multiple demonic runes 05:40:42 03kilobyte * rd651535f42c4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-stuff.cc mon-util.cc): Block demon lord polymorph, they'd try thousands of time before failing and falling back. 05:40:43 03kilobyte * rd8593eb207b9 10/crawl-ref/source/ (16 files in 2 dirs): Goldify runes. 05:40:43 03kilobyte * rbb115985d727 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Don't spawn extra demonic runes after you got one. 05:40:43 03kilobyte * r9d9540968e4c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files in 2 dirs): An ugly display for runes. 05:40:43 03kilobyte * rcb87a3933750 10/crawl-ref/source/items.cc: When picking up a rune, say how many you have now. 05:40:43 not sure what to do with nrune= and urune= fields, Henzell needs them for now 05:40:51 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-577-g2f69e53 05:41:12 kilobyte: making the game unwinnable if you leave all your runes in abyss? 05:44:02 casmith789: since monsters don't pick up runes, not possible 05:44:03 abyss changes, you lose all your runes 05:44:03 then you have 0 runes and only the abyss one will generate 05:44:03 well, how exactly will you drag them onto the Abyssal floor? 05:44:03 okay not abyss. How about leave them in spider? or other portal vault 05:44:03 or pan 05:44:03 if they are goldified, I suppose you can't drop them 05:44:07 say you wanted to go into a zig 05:44:27 and left all your runes outside to save space and weight 05:44:43 save 0 space and 0 weight :p 05:44:50 oh 05:45:00 I see, that's what you meant by goldify 05:45:47 running to D:1 to stash runes there is no fun and no risk, merely a chore 05:45:49 I thought you meant make them a gold colour so that they stood out :P 05:47:39 yay for goldification! 05:48:19 the display sucks but it can be made better 05:49:20 how do you display the rune list? 05:49:20 for now I consider an "animation": when you win, there can be a screen with congratulations, some stats and a row of runes that slide into place 05:49:25 would that be a good idea? 05:49:46 currently: }: 6/15 runes: slimy, elven, iron, obsidian, fiery, gossamer 05:49:49 (ie, meh) 05:50:42 what? } shows weapons. 05:52:12 an endgame animation sounds great. When you get your first win and see nothing more than the countless times you died, it's a bit underwhelming (but not really unexpected either for a roguelike). 05:52:18 what is the elven rune? 05:52:54 I didn't realise I was away from crawl for so long :) 05:52:56 something to play with in wizmode :) 05:54:11 did Elf have a rune pre-Stone Soup? 05:54:44 Don't know. Or maybe it was planned to have one at some point. 05:55:27 for the display, we can simply add them to \ 05:55:37 elf certainly did use to have a rune, but I've no idea when 05:56:18 in the first commit in 2005 it already has a comment: // unused 05:57:55 kilobyte: how long is Ash's wrath? A full XP level? More? 05:59:52 yes 06:01:20 2 levels now, since the code you partially restored takes only half 06:01:45 ok 06:01:49 (which is the same amount as it's not taken away) 06:01:50 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:02:49 2 levels doesn't sound bad, but maybe we should put a cap somewhere, or post XL27 wrath is going to last forever 06:07:00 if so, you can change max_level to experience_level 06:07:49 the comment in religion.cc is misleading, anyone gets max_level increases, it's just felids who directly care 06:08:09 you can still gain lives post XL27? 06:08:17 others still suffer a longer wrath -- ie, more skill xp taken away in 0.8, longer time of reduced skills in 0.9 06:08:45 you can, although with diminishing gains 06:09:30 changing max_level to experience_level means you can drain yourself to reduce wrath duration, doesn't it? 06:09:56 better to just use min(max_level, 27) 06:10:02 sounds good 06:12:42 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:14:03 edlothiol: ooh nice to see you. I wanted someone with a clue about tiles :p 06:14:05 03galehar * rcc7871eeb713 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Cap Ashenzari wrath duration. 06:14:22 if I added a post-win text animation, would [web]tiles handle it right? 06:14:52 hm, text animation? probably 06:15:52 yes, I think it would 06:16:46 btw, I think the webtiles branch is ready now 06:16:59 though there's still a makefile problem I wasn't able to solve 06:17:18 that's okay, nobody can solve those makefile problems :P 06:19:11 maybe kilobyte can, I'm pretty much a makefile noob ;) 06:20:30 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 06:20:43 -!- evilmike has quit [] 06:21:52 it autogenerates some javascript files with tile information. these are first written in the rltiles folder by the tool, and then copied into the webserver folder by the makefile 06:22:55 the thing is, when compiling from a clean directory, it will fail with "no goal for webserver/static/game/tileinfo-floor.js", although there obviously is one 06:23:20 and if you run make again after that, it works 06:24:48 first thing to try: -j1 (or no -j) vs -jX for X>1 06:25:32 if not, lemme take a look... could you tell me where you put your sources? 06:26:36 actually, it looks more like you have that file created in another rule, not labelled as a recipe for that particular target 06:28:58 webtiles branch at https://gitorious.org/~fdiebold/crawl/fdiebolds-crawl 06:29:22 although I've just rebased onto the newest master and will push that in a few moments 06:30:19 https://gitorious.org/~fdiebold/crawl/fdiebolds-crawl/blobs/webtiles/crawl-ref/source/makefile#line913 06:32:18 kilobyte: you'll (probably) have to call tiles.set_need_redraw() to make your animation show up in tiles 06:42:06 -!- b0rsuk has joined ##crawl-dev 06:42:09 Hi 06:42:28 I just want to let you know I have feedback for new yellow draconians 06:42:41 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:draconian#yellow_draconian_feedback 06:43:31 Main points: acid stinks, bleeding stinks even more. 06:43:43 I like your proposal. 06:44:30 Proposal to replace bleeding with corrosion of natural armour (Elephants, dragons, beetles, anything that's not ethereal or gets AC bonus from magical means) 06:44:59 I like the idea of certain attacks lowering AC of certain monsters - I've had an idea to make crushing attacks do so for "brittle" monsters (such as crystal golems and ice foos) 06:44:59 Golems except crystal, bone dragons, skeletal warriors, ... 06:45:13 Keskitalo: I would like staff of Earth do that. 06:45:45 That'd be a good target for such an effect, yeah. 06:45:48 it can stack with bleeding. Having acid eating through your skin must hurt. 06:46:01 Instead of making it deal less damage against AC (which is not really noticable), make it deal lots of damage to hard monsters and not much to softer ones. 06:46:22 galehar_: Yes, as far as realism is concerned. But there's sticky flame and poison already. 06:46:59 -!- galehar_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:47:02 kilobyte: make -j2 fails faster, before even building the rltiles tool 06:47:57 Also, I have an issue with many staves. Many of them deal damage type which is already provided by corresponding magicks. This is especially the case for poison, fire, cold. 06:49:00 Staff of death dealing pain can stay, it's nice in that it's extra damage without draining. And I would say lightning from staff of air is okay too, because it's an alternative to often inaccurate lightning spells. 06:49:46 galehar: Either way, current bleeding effect is unacceptable. I have never seen an enemy die due to bleeding. It just paints floor squares red. 06:51:37 Another issue. I'm surprised no one has brought it up so far. "Chaotic" has no place in monster status line, it should be in description. (Currently: It is moderately wounded, moving slowly, confused, and chaotic) 06:52:22 Chaotic is not an acquired effect except perhaps for monsters who've been polymorphed with a wand, and player ghosts who had mutations. 06:52:38 Scratch player ghosts, ghosts can't mutate after death. 06:56:42 -!- fdel has left ##crawl-dev 06:58:35 Bleeding specifically doesn't kill directly. I'm not terribly fond of bleeding myself, but it could be made a bit different from poison/rotting by letting many demons bleed. (Also many rP monsters can bleed). Not sure if that's enough anyway. 06:59:04 There. I've just reported the "(almost dead, retreating, chaotic)" issue. I can no longer stand it :-). 06:59:14 b0rsuk: It's only there so you can easily tell which monsters get hurt by silver. :P 06:59:20 I admit it's a bit bad. 06:59:35 "Chaotic" has no place in monster status line. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4142) by b0rsuk 07:00:05 My idea was to - I'm not sure I wrote it up anywhere - give all the chaotic monsters a one-radius glow-inducing "chaotic" halo. This way all the chaotic monsters would be visually distinct. 07:00:37 By the way, mantis says some issues I reported await my confirmation. ( Awaiting Confirmation of Resolution from Me ). I haven't been able to find the way to confirm them. 07:00:46 How do I do that ? 07:01:16 I think you need to change resolution from resolved to closed 07:02:34 b0rsuk: That item is not really a bug, so it should be in the wiki. 07:03:29 Zaba: I've just tried that (selected "closed" and clicked on "update issue"), but it's still in my "awating confirmation" view. 07:03:43 Keskitalo: Which item ? 07:04:04 The "chaotic" thing you posted on the tracker. 07:05:28 Keskitalo, sounds like buggy display to me 07:05:44 Keskitalo: I'm fine with that, maybe it will get fixed faster if it will annoy people :-). It's a slippery slope if you want to have chaotic in status line. You could as well have "demon" in status line, or flying (for airstrike) 07:06:33 It's there on purpose, though I admit it's a kludge. 07:06:39 Keskitalo: Maybe have "chaotic" in status line only if player has silver ammo in quiver ? That would be novel. 07:06:50 It would be slightly better. 07:07:07 Regarding demon/flying, it'd be (possibly) good if that information was in the targeting if it was relevant to the attack you were doing. 07:07:12 Yeah, exactly. 07:07:42 Could also show resistances etc. 07:08:23 I actually wonder if all the information is accessible for the targeting code already ... 07:09:11 It's harder with resistances when spells are involved. If I can cast Sting and Lightning Bolt, do you list both resistances ? 07:09:44 And if I'm a follower of Zin who knows these spells, the status line gets longer and longer. 07:11:35 Regarding draconians, which of the two sentences is more accurate in your opinion: 1) Draconians have an AC advantage compared to other dodgers 2) Draconians get their AC from innate mutation instead of boots, gloves, and helmet 07:12:00 Well, only list them when you are actually targeting, not when you are just looking. This way the interface already knows the attack and the resistances that matter. 07:12:13 ...I think 2) is more accurate, whereas 1) should be the one, but it's not. 07:12:19 But yeah, the length would possibly still end up to be an issue. 07:14:04 Keskitalo: How about using 1 character per each resistance ? Character with red background - fire, white background - ice, cyan - elec, purple - draining or chaotic, green - poison... 07:14:29 It might end up looking Perl-y, but it could be condensed to a single line 07:14:54 I mean it could look similar to monster list to the right of viewport. 07:15:46 Could possibly work, especially in tiles with icons.. 07:16:33 I think just showing the relevant resistant or vulnerability to the specific attack being targetted would be good. How long can it get? Attacks are "single branded", so only one resist/vuln can be active at a time. 07:17:22 when just looking around with x, only show temporary status, and keep the rest in description. 07:20:56 Actually many attacks are double branded, physical (AC resists) and some element. Which reminds me, I would really like to have AC and EV mentioned in monster description if only in vague terms (no description, it looks somewhat nimble, very nimble, darting around... soft, thick-skinned, tough, very tough ...) 07:22:33 We're not showing AC in status line. But an adjective in description, sure why not. 07:23:15 well, multi-brand missile code is still present, just mostly unused (Nessos being the only case) 07:32:58 so, currently, all player attacks are single branded. And even if we add some double branded attacks, 2 adjectives for relevant resists/vuln is still ok. 07:42:45 -!- b0rsuk has left ##crawl-dev 07:45:59 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:46:08 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 08:06:35 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:17:45 how do I use the in-game lua interpreter? 08:17:58 Is there any doc about it? I can't seem to make it do anything. 08:20:45 what are you trying to do with it? 08:21:09 all the dlua api is exposed in it, I think (and that includes clua) 08:21:17 if you mean the wizmode interpreter 08:21:34 yes 08:21:54 I'm just trying to figure out how it works and test stuff 08:22:06 I haven't touched lua yet 08:22:27 it's annoying you can't call dlua from wizmode clua 08:23:12 can I call the function defined in l_*.cc? 08:23:34 both fireworks and woken_rest do use it, but through a thoroughly unholy hack (sendkeys(^T then the command)) 08:23:34 some of them 08:24:01 there's precisely 0 documentation, too 08:24:14 how do I tell which ones are accessible? 08:24:16 others (vault-related ones) won't work without the map userdata 08:24:23 galehar, you try and see :P 08:25:59 galehar, they all should be callable, some just won't make sense 08:26:05 what if I want to add a hook and make it accessible only from a command line script (-script), but not from player scripts (because that would be cheating)? 08:27:48 you add it to a dlua library 08:28:04 clua is the user-accessible subset of dlua, basically 08:34:07 what's the syntax for calling a function? foo() always tell me repl:1: attempt to call global 'foo' (a nil value) 08:35:05 library.function() 08:35:36 crawl.mpr(...) or dgn.create_monster(...), etc. 08:36:35 thanks 08:45:00 I want to add a player specific hook. Basically, a wrapper of gain_exp. Can I add it to the you library and check within the function if we're in wizmode? 08:45:07 seems it would be out of place in dlua 09:01:58 hmm. Think I got it. you_clib is available to client, you_dlib isn't. 09:05:03 to ensure confusion, the dat/clua/ directory is dlua only 09:05:49 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:15:56 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:27:43 Does C sometimes means Client and sometimes means C language? 09:35:55 possible, but that doesn't help at all 09:45:31 spiderformed felids butcher with a knife (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4143) by ortoslon 09:46:38 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 09:51:38 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:22:07 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 10:22:59 hello folks 10:24:44 so I'm making some petrifying clouds for this catoblepas to breathe, if anyone would like to give any input. the catoblepas is basically just a death yak with higher ac and lower ev, and its breath weapon is basically just a steam dragon's breath that petrifies (or will, once I get it working) 10:25:34 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:25:56 I also chose magenta for its glyph, to match the basilisk, but I'm not sure what to do about a tile. should I recolor a yak tile myself, or should I leave it missing so that an official tilemaker notices the need for one? 10:29:45 maybe I will make a tavern post about a tile, that seems like the most efficient route 10:32:07 03kilobyte * r734cbf089eb6 10/crawl-ref/source/items.cc: Remove two hard-coded duplicates of the list of runes. 10:32:17 03kilobyte * raaa807d2b990 10/crawl-ref/source/shopping.cc: Don't vary the prices of misc items with their identification status. 10:46:44 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 11:21:01 change Sil status light color to purple (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4144) by reid 11:22:29 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 11:34:01 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:42:29 -!- herself has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:47:43 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 11:50:14 -!- herself has joined ##crawl-dev 11:58:06 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 12:07:20 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 12:07:36 -!- Wensley has quit [*.net *.split] 12:07:36 -!- casmith789 has quit [*.net *.split] 12:07:36 -!- lorimer has quit [*.net *.split] 12:08:14 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 12:08:14 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:08:14 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 12:13:57 -!- Wensley has quit [*.net *.split] 12:13:58 -!- casmith789 has quit [*.net *.split] 12:13:58 -!- lorimer has quit [*.net *.split] 12:15:08 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 12:16:04 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 12:16:04 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:16:04 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 12:24:47 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:31:00 there's nothing i enjoy more than identifying plusses of umpteen handaxes of returning by use with Throwing skill 1 12:32:55 shoulda gone ash 12:33:24 place an altar of ash in the returning portal vault :P 12:33:40 place a portal to ash in _every bailey_ :P 12:34:23 hmm, actually I don't know if there are any baileys with javelins of returning... sounds like a project 12:34:52 javelins of returning are basically on par with potions of experience 12:34:54 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:35:10 shoals have some 12:35:13 usually 12:35:39 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:36:08 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:37:07 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:37:26 javelins of returning aren't very good 12:37:53 they are effectively like having a larger pile of javelins that mulches more quickly 12:38:12 yeah I was kind of being sarcastic :P 12:58:09 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:09:13 -!- nrook has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:22:44 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 13:24:13 -!- petete has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:27:55 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:36:44 Kiku's received corpses multiply? (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4145) by Mental Mouse 13:43:05 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 13:49:40 -!- Sequell has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:49:58 -!- b0rsuk has joined ##crawl-dev 13:53:56 DOes anybody know how fast is MP regeneration compared to HP regeneration ? 13:54:30 I figured out the value of Guardian Spirit is much more in MP *regen speed* rather than simple "More hp" 13:54:57 It's a small pool of extra HP, but a fast regenerating one. 13:54:59 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:57:58 if you wanted a precise number you could just repeatedly wield and unwield with low mp and hp and figure out a ratio 13:58:18 actually no, hp regen is a function of max hp 13:58:26 no idea what governs mp regen 13:58:34 -!- hoody_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:58:59 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:59:27 max mp 13:59:46 no idea how it compares to hp though 14:00:53 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 14:01:08 hp + regen source is about the same as mp 14:01:12 on a typical char 14:01:18 but yeah, faster effective hp regen is one of the draws of guardian spirit, which come to think of it is a really weird name 14:01:18 I just asked Henzell for HP regen. TO regenerate 1 HP every 2 turns, you need 240 health. 14:01:44 Wensley: Why do you think it's weird ? 14:01:47 I mean hp + regen source is about the same percentage than mp 14:02:03 Initially I thought about it as a Zin ability, to replace Recite which I don't like. 14:02:54 I feel like "guardian spirit" evokes a friendly spirit fighting by your side, like the demonic guardian mutation. a more clear name might be "mana barrier" or something. not really that big of a deal 14:02:56 I suggested an amulet instead because it's more modular, whereas with Zin it would discourage Zin casters. 14:03:32 Wensley: For me, guardian spirit is something more subtle, some unseen force watching over me. (I'm not religious) 14:03:45 Think guardian angel in catholicism 14:04:01 I'm actually thinking more like the ancestral guardians from morrowind :P 14:04:15 guardian angels are supposed to be invisible and impossible to notice, etc (how convenient - unprovable) 14:04:17 but yeah guardian angel is a good analog 14:04:28 (although not sure what that has to do with mp) 14:04:56 Wensley: I invented the mechanic first (actually just copied from Diablo) and then searched for a name for it. 14:05:25 I thought, and still think, there should be ways to use MP that are not spellcasting. 14:05:31 ah, nice :) I think it's a cool effect, though oft-maligned and situational 14:06:09 There's a one weird fact. Invocations improve MP pool and use MP pool. Spellcasting improves MP pool and improves MP pool. 14:06:20 Why not normalize it ? 14:06:30 so that invocations use less mp? 14:06:53 If anything that uses MP also boosts Mp, what's the point ? 14:07:10 well invo and spellcasting improve the pool at different rates 14:07:12 ALmost nothing (except for some minor items) uses **base** MP. 14:07:14 if you train it it gets better 14:07:20 that's the point 14:07:46 casmith789: Why have base MP then ? 14:07:54 If base MP is pretty much never used ? 14:08:01 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:05 It's just displayed, but why ? 14:08:07 by base MP, you mean racial mp? 14:08:16 base mp isn't displayed... 14:08:31 casmith789: It is - until you learn Spellcasting or Invocations. 14:08:47 b0rsuk: evokable items, perhaps 14:08:54 what? loads of things use mp that aren't spellcasting or invocations 14:09:02 MarvinPA: Name two. 14:09:13 ring of invisibility, ring of levitation 14:09:21 kiku abilities that don't train invoc, just about every evocable item 14:09:22 makhleb abilities 14:09:24 Neither terribly useful. 14:09:28 wtf 14:09:43 I am not talking to you now if you claim all evo item isn't useful 14:09:45 casmith789: makhleb abilities come from Invocations, which boosts MP. 14:09:46 rods do, in a roundabout way 14:09:49 no 14:10:02 you could have less mp than the thing takes to use 14:10:06 every ash ability, every kiku ability, every nemelex ability 14:10:09 some chars start with 0mp 14:10:15 none use invocations, all require mp 14:10:16 With current implementation both Invocations and Spellcasting dillute differences between races. ALl races end up with similar max MP. 14:10:28 no 14:10:39 MarvinPA: Is this a recent change ? 14:10:57 nemelex has been there for ages 14:11:00 kiku was .8 change 14:11:01 kiku is relatively recent, nemelex has worked like that since forever 14:11:02 Last time I played, makhleb invocations used Invocations. 14:11:16 they only use invo if you have mp 14:11:23 0mp -> no invocations 14:11:30 so you have "base mp" 14:11:51 By the time you start using items like ring of Invisibility or Levitations you typically have much more MP than they need. 14:11:59 So MP is barely a factor then. 14:12:18 Remember ring of Invi, Tele need lots of Evocations to use reliably. That doesn't happen in early levels. 14:12:36 You will have 15, 20 MP by the time you use them regularly, I think. 14:12:44 That's 5 teleports in a row. 14:14:42 casmith789: there's some redundancy in design. If almost everything that uses MP comes after Invo or Spc, you could simply have MP a function of Spc and Invo and nothing else. Races have Spc and Invo aptitudes already, no need for extra stuff like base racial MP. 14:15:06 There are so many layers of complexity that don't add up to anything meaningful. 14:15:13 except almost everything that uses MP *doesn't* come after invo or spc 14:15:24 as was just explained 14:15:24 MarvinPA: Examples please. 14:15:27 Where ? 14:15:39 god abilities, evocations 14:15:41 every ash ability, every kiku ability, every nemelex ability 14:15:44 none use invocations, all require mp 14:16:04 all other evocations 14:16:11 Hmm maybe it's because I think gods suck and play godless 14:16:17 I grew bored with gods a while ago. 14:16:19 yes it is 14:16:30 do you play DG every game or have you just not tried kiku 14:16:33 (: 14:16:43 No, I often just play godless non-demigods. 14:16:47 And I like demigods too. 14:17:01 I just escaped abyss with my draconian VM and I didn't care to convert. 14:17:06 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 14:17:29 Few gods affect the way I play, so I don't like them. 14:17:42 Piety is usually a function of kills. 14:17:52 actually many gods affect the way you play 14:17:56 Killing is something everyone does anyway. 14:18:06 also untrue, but largely true 14:18:06 casmith789: Have you played Powder ? 14:18:08 no 14:18:15 Maybe you should. 14:18:25 Xom is especially fun in Powder. 14:18:29 have you played with kiku? 14:19:25 also new kiku specifically 14:19:27 since old kiku was wretched 14:19:34 anyway, even the example of guardian spirit that you were talking about like 5 minutes ago is a pretty good example of something that doesn't depend on invocations or spellcasting 14:19:41 and where base racial mp matters 14:19:44 He has moods - it's like you're changing religion often. Xom wants you stop bashing things and you lose piety for killing stuff. 14:20:21 Is the new Kiku the one with max HP pacts ? 14:20:29 no 14:20:35 * b0rsuk shrugs 14:21:06 that's one i proposed a looong time ago that was not used 14:21:08 new kiku is a fun tomb and a whole necrusader style of play you get with nearly nothing else 14:21:14 I bet new kiku is some kind of spellbook that places no restrictions on what you are allowed to do, and gets piety from kills. 14:21:31 yep, and it's fun 14:21:45 and plays differently from other gods because guaranteed access to necro spellbooks is very important 14:21:46 Necromancy is so strong on its own it doesn't need a god. 14:22:22 there are plenty of gods with heavy restrictions on what you can do as well, if that's what you prefer 14:22:23 Necromancy, along with Trog, are things that can make almost any race live into the midgame or later. 14:22:26 variety is nice to have 14:22:30 *doesn't try the god* *complains about the god* *is b0rsuk* 14:22:45 Necro octopodes, trog deep elves, everything works. 14:23:00 I heard DEBe was a lot less viable 14:23:07 I'm just used to things sucking in crawl and never getting fixed. Is Sure Blade still there ? 14:23:13 Misc items ? 14:23:14 also there are actually a lot of gods with heavy restrictions 14:23:19 if you talk about sure blade sucking you should seriously TRY IT 14:23:22 it is awesome 14:23:29 there are a full 5 gods that you can't reasonably choose if you're a transmuter 14:23:49 Has sure blade been changed ? Because it's an accuracy booster for the most accurate weapon class. 14:23:58 that doesn't mean anything 14:23:59 so? 14:24:00 yes, and it is an incredibly useful spell 14:24:25 that's like saying slaying on an exec axe isn't useful 14:24:28 Why would I care about accuracy of an already accurate weapon ? 14:24:37 being more accurate means you hit things more often 14:24:43 hitting things more often means you kill them in less turns 14:24:44 because you miss about 40% anyway 14:24:49 Short blades hit often enough. 14:24:49 or even more 14:24:50 this tends to be a good thing 14:24:52 no they don't 14:24:52 'Why would I care about damage of an already deadly weapon ?' 14:25:08 I would care about accuracy of maces, glaives etc. Which is why I like air elementalists and ogres of TSO. 14:25:31 okay this is the uninformed view that everyone took until people used sure blade 14:25:42 Dog has tail. Cat has tail. Therefore, cat and dog are the same. 14:25:42 so all this tells me is you dismiss things without trying 14:26:17 So if sure blade is awesome why is it I never see anyone use it ? 14:27:03 I guess you don't watch me 14:27:08 maybe you're not watching very well, i see it get plenty of use 14:27:16 it's even in a starting book now 14:27:53 oh i guess it was before too, but that was old stalker 14:27:54 Is this an accurate description of kiku ? http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?title=Kiku 14:28:02 it's the wrong book 14:28:08 stalker was way better 14:28:32 Stalker had Poison Weapon. 14:28:43 I'd take Poison Weapon over Sure Blade anytime. 14:28:54 well then you're uninformed 14:29:07 I'm not uninformed, I'm just trolled. 14:29:14 (being trolled) 14:29:50 I won't lower myself to using a weapon weaker than a staff :-). I don't like the message spam. 14:30:18 can't you use poison weapon and sure blade at the same time anyways 14:30:23 what if a) you can't cast poison weapon b) 3mp is a large investment c) the monster you are facing is poison resistant d) the monster you are facing is very strong (so you want to use both) e) the best weapon you own has a brand 14:30:26 the fact that you choose not to use it doesn't make sure blade a bad spell i'm pretty sure 14:30:56 not wanting to use short blades is perfectly reasonable, but it's still a great spell for those who do 14:31:51 what you are essentially saying is crawl has not enough variety but you are unwilling to try the variety it provides 14:32:32 casmith789: I spend 95% of my Crawl time trying new combos and it feels like banging head against the wall usually. 14:32:50 FOr example, octopodes without strong magic just plain suck. 14:32:56