00:03:08 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 00:03:15 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-539-g4c0d231 (32) 00:18:55 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-539-g4c0d231 00:22:27 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:35:34 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:35:58 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:41:25 -!- gnsh has quit [] 00:58:14 -!- gnsh has joined ##crawl-dev 01:33:19 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 01:41:39 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:42:28 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:08:14 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:10:08 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:18:33 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:30:17 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:33:52 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:39:02 -!- hoody__ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:39:02 -!- hoody_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:51:29 -!- hoody__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:15:21 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:25:55 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 04:30:41 !tell bmh Oops, sorry for not sending the patch outright (thought you're awake). Could you please check if http://angband.pl/tmp/0001-Fix-conflict-with-a-temp-var-used-for-guessing-SDK_V.patch fixes this on your Mac? 04:30:41 kilobyte: OK, I'll let bmh know. 05:42:15 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 05:43:10 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:43:50 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:43:50 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 05:54:15 !tell galehar oops, thanks for the message. fixed the blink issue, i'm not sure why i changed that condition either :P 05:54:15 MarvinPA: OK, I'll let galehar know. 05:54:26 03MarvinPA * r1784a9759145 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-transloc.cc: Make blinks work properly again in non-cTele areas 06:02:17 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:20:02 -!- evilmike has quit [] 07:04:24 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 07:04:51 kilobyte: what's the fix you had in mind for the i386/darwin-i686 issue? 07:04:52 bmh: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 07:05:00 !message 07:05:08 !messages 07:05:09 (1/1) kilobyte said (2h 34m 28s ago): Oops, sorry for not sending the patch outright (thought you're awake). Could you please check if http://angband.pl/tmp/0001-Fix-conflict-with-a-temp-var-used-for-guessing-SDK_V.patch fixes this on your Mac? 07:05:14 that will do. 07:08:37 bmh: <3 07:08:59 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 07:08:59 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 07:09:23 I should be done compiling in a few minutes 07:14:26 Smite targeting reveals closed doors in translucent walls (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4131) by Galefury 07:14:41 !learn add 200_power With all skills at 27, you need 3 enhancers and 34 INT, or 2 enhancers and 50 INT. Impossible with just 1. Four enhancers don't give an effect better than three. 07:14:41 200 power[1/1]: With all skills at 27, you need 3 enhancers and 34 INT, or 2 enhancers and 50 INT. Impossible with just 1. Four enhancers don't give an effect better than three. 07:16:54 Re: Then what about dancing weapons that get hit by distortion? -- Do you know what the current behavior is? 07:18:26 currently, randarts are outright lost, unrands get marked as "lost in the abyss", but that flag no longer can bring them back 07:18:58 I was actually thinking of Hall of Blades. If you abyss a permanent dancing weapon, does it appear in the Abyss? 07:19:10 That patch worked. 07:20:19 I think handling unrandarts specially is wrong, though... what would you say about scrapping the code and having a transit list for items? So if you lose the Orb or get shifted between killing Geryon and taking the horn, you can still get them back. 07:21:07 It would be fairly impressive to lose the orb in the abyss. 07:21:13 How could it happen involuntarily? 07:21:59 currently no, since you'd have to drop it yourself. I'm thinking about having felids drop _part_ of their gear on death, though. 07:23:07 all of the gear would mean getting stuck in some places (other than the Abyss) due to losing a ring of levitation, teleportation or what is needed to get out, but having a chance with some cheats could work 07:23:22 if( level == ABYSS && you.species == FELID && item == ORB) continue; 07:23:55 That would be a bothersome scenario. Losing lev over lava 07:27:41 Are runes going to be goldified? 07:30:48 not sure, I'd like that and the only concerns raised so far is that runes need to be prominently displayed 07:35:19 Rune count in the status area? 07:36:47 transit list for items is the solution, imo 07:37:26 bmh: yes. People came up with hilariously elaborate proposals, when we really just need a line somewhere listing the runes 07:37:53 natural candidates are: inventory (section at the end, you can examine, but not drop); Ctrl-O; % 07:39:21 Advantage of Ctrl-O: You can see for many branches if you just tried the final level (Slime (6/6)) or if you've been successful as well 07:40:27 dpeg: What do you mean på "transit list"? 07:41:19 Inventory is cluttered wnough as it is, I think ^O is good. 07:41:59 ghallberg: agreed. If the rune count needs to be prominent like kilobyte is arguing for, where could it fit? 07:43:28 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 07:45:38 ghallberg: there is a transit list for banished monsters. kilobyte suggests a list for items, and it is a great idea. 07:46:13 dpeg: So, stuff on the transit list can be found in abyss? 07:46:34 ghallberg: there's currently a transit list for monsters 07:46:54 ie, if you banish Geryon or the Royal Jelly, you need to hunt for them in the Abyss 07:47:26 bmh: we're free to print "You pick up the serpentine rune. You know have 2 runes. Press [foo] for more information." 07:47:43 same for any other unique; regular monsters have a HD-dependent chance of being put onto the list, if they fail the roll they are gone 07:48:07 do many of the runes have a tile on their own? 07:49:17 kilobyte: dpeg thanks 07:49:18 I would support a final section of the inventory for non-droppable items, one line for gold, another line for runes. There would be a key associated with runes and if you press that, you get a listing of the runes. 07:49:56 I'd put that section on top of the 'i' display 07:49:59 dpeg: Please don't put anything in the inventory screen, it's bloated as it is. 07:50:09 Lot's of space in ^O and %. 07:50:12 9 runes have tiles (hell, pan, snake) 07:50:23 ghallberg: good point 07:50:46 % is pretty cramped 07:50:51 I don't get the bit about bloated. A line in the inventory would make sure that players don't forget their runes. This is also the place where runes are now. 07:51:06 Zaba: on top is not good -- this is information you don't want almost all of the time 07:51:21 I'm not sure if it'd be good to display runes graphically... that'd look odd, especially since you almost never get hell/pan runes without having the rest 07:52:02 On %, a good place for listing Runes would be where Gold is now, only that I don't know where to put gold then :) 07:52:24 (It is fine that % shows rune count, it just shouldn't be the only place.) 07:52:37 % has lots of space at the bottom, doesn't it? 07:52:38 dpeg: is there a spare line under gold? 07:52:58 bmh: yes, but we should keep it to have some shred of visual appeal for the screen. 07:53:12 bmh: taking a line on the HUD for something that rarely changes wouldn't be that useful 07:53:24 yes 07:53:52 btw, do runes currently share the misc item glyph or not? Ie { or } ? 07:54:07 On a different topic: What is up with MR levels? Why isn't it just a **... like everything else? 07:54:20 runes are } 07:54:25 ghallberg: because progress is slow 07:54:35 dpeg: ? 07:54:39 Trove text bug (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4132) by Galefury 07:54:39 MarvinPA: so we could introduce a } command just like $. 07:55:00 } already does something, apparently 07:55:07 MarvinPA: I jjust noticed :P 07:55:11 not sure anybody uses it :) 07:55:14 one of those commands nobody ever uses, yeah :P 07:55:44 I do use $ and ", however. 07:57:09 " sucks halfling balls for octopodes, by the way... getting a --more-- for something that never gave it is annoying 07:57:29 back to work. 07:57:33 * ghallberg stop slacking 07:57:53 should I put multiple rings in one line? 07:58:05 if there'd be room for that, it sounds good, yeah 07:58:09 40 characters should be enough for even quite long randart inscriptions 07:58:11 kilobyte: that'd be good -- nobody expected more than three jewellery items back then :) 08:00:39 the orb being { is horrible, by the way 08:00:55 (so are clouds on 0) 08:02:42 the orb is on { these days? 08:02:53 what's the simplest way to place (lots) clouds? 08:03:03 I want to add transloc cloud storms to the abyss. 08:05:39 off for a while 08:16:23 there's a huge margin between slot name and the colon, it can look ugly on tinyterms 08:17:13 1st ring : c - a ring of fire 2nd ring : g - a ring of fire 08:19:14 kilobyte: this is because you need only three letters, but for "right" you need six? 08:19:20 erm, five :) 08:20:31 yeah, but I just checked: with chopping all the spaces before the colon, even non-artefact "a ring of teleport control" doesn't fit 08:23:45 dropping the word "ring" makes it unobvious for new players 08:24:12 "ring 1: c - a ring of fire" looks worse but shaves off two spaces 08:27:30 for tiny term users, would it be better to cut a good deal of randart or to have a --more--? 08:28:11 how small are tiny terms? 08:31:18 80 columns would cut off "l" from "teleport control" if "1st ring" stays 08:31:39 "ring 1" has two spaces more 08:32:21 currently, CDO has 8 players with 80 columns, 1 each of: 85, 87, 97, 142, 160, 177 08:54:27 03kilobyte * rca9fbce6cb9d 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Restore stat gain at level 4 for draconians which was accidentally lost. 08:54:37 03kilobyte * r215f28bcf504 10/crawl-ref/source/command.cc: Show the list of jewelry (") in two columns for octopodes. 08:54:38 03kilobyte * rec594861f119 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: Fix conflict with a temp var used for guessing SDK_VER. 08:54:38 03kilobyte * raf3d3a98ff99 10/crawl-ref/source/command.cc: Make octopode " back ugly and --more--y on 80 column terminals. 09:01:17 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:20:28 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 09:21:35 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:21:42 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:21:55 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:25:22 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:37 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 09:49:34 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:00:03 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:02:43 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 10:08:37 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:08:58 -!- ophanim has joined ##crawl-dev 10:34:49 -!- Galefury has joined ##crawl-dev 10:50:32 -!- edlothiol has quit [Quit: edlothiol] 10:52:08 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 11:26:14 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:46:46 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 12:08:45 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 12:20:24 -!- Zaba has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:20:33 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 12:24:58 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 12:25:46 -!- neunon has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:27:43 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 12:27:50 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 12:35:35 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:35:56 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:00:46 I want gloom to be a spell effect 13:01:11 like a big cloud spell but creating gloom? 13:01:44 don't know, because that would be really abusable 13:01:52 but gloom is so cool 13:01:55 mm, yeah 13:02:21 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:12:29 st_: need to spend some time for coming up with a spell where it works :) 13:14:39 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:15:06 VZ (L22 KoBe) ASSERT((int)Buffer.size() == expanded_keys_left) in 'macro.cc' at line 553 failed. (Vault:6) 14:04:00 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:15 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 14:58:09 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:29 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:11:04 galehar: Bonsoir! 15:11:44 moin! 15:11:44 galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 15:11:49 !messages 15:11:49 (1/1) MarvinPA said (9h 17m 35s ago): oops, thanks for the message. fixed the blink issue, i'm not sure why i changed that condition either :P 15:11:51 A little easier to talk about cTele here? :) 15:12:08 sure 15:12:16 let me read your comment on the forum 15:14:30 galehar: why are we making the ring of tele more valuable? 15:14:57 raising level of the cTele spell is fine 15:14:59 are we? 15:15:25 no, we're making source of teleportations more valuable 15:15:28 "About the ring of teleportation, I think we should just get rid of the evocable teleport. It's the last infinite source of teleportation, and since we're making it more valuable, it needs to be a finite resource." 15:15:33 ah, yes 15:15:33 because we can use them to counter teleportitis 15:15:41 but not the ring :) 15:16:11 yes, I'm proposing to make the ring worthless 15:16:20 hey, I did that :) 15:17:07 really? Well, that's an excellent idea! 15:17:08 :) 15:17:12 I agree that we're nerfing semi-cBlink here (that's why I recapped it in the Scope paragraph) 15:17:24 but making cTele active is such a nerf already 15:18:32 we're only nerf blink + ring of TC. If you use the TC spell, there's no nerf to semi-cBlink in our proposal 15:19:05 but it's a start 15:19:10 true, but in my assessment (which can easily be way off), semi-cBlink from ring is the main offender 15:19:23 but as I said, increasing level of the cTele spell is good, too 15:19:50 yes, raising the spell to L5 or L6 would help 15:20:36 about ring vs spell, it depends on games and builds. Sometimes you find one and not the other. Sometimes a ring slot is more valuable than 4 spell slots, and sometimes it's the opposite. 15:21:17 isn't the spell a bit more easy to find? 15:22:50 probably, yes 15:23:01 but the ring is currently better, as you don't have to cast in advance 15:23:36 galehar: should we propose the list of changes to the others, or just go ahead? 15:23:46 MarvinPA: still around? 15:24:11 elliptic is also supposedly around 15:24:37 go ahead? you do the coding? ;) 15:24:42 ahem 15:24:50 -!- dpeg is now known as dummypeg 15:25:16 I really have to work on the new skill training, or I won't be able to finish it in time for 0.9 15:25:17 but I am sure MarvinPA agrees -- he replied in the thread and pointed out some missing kinks 15:25:35 so let's look for volunteers :) 15:25:53 implementable? 15:26:50 btw, do tele traps run out by now? 15:26:59 no they don't 15:27:04 they should 15:27:15 galehar: sorry for trying to urge you into this 15:27:18 but if you can't control, it's much less abusable, isn't it? 15:27:30 it's ok, nice try ;) 15:27:32 oh, you can still abuse it with monster luring 15:27:39 I did it -- I know what I am talking about 15:27:40 oh right 15:28:06 I can write something for Mantis or for c-r-d -- what's better? 15:28:20 well, we can add it to the package, but IMHO, it's lower priority than the rest. 15:28:32 what package? 15:28:51 it is a balancing nerf, I think highly of those :) 15:28:53 the package of changes to do to teleportation 15:29:18 let's start by c-r-d and see if any team member is interested in coding it 15:29:24 okay, will do 15:29:31 thanks 15:29:40 I thank you 15:29:46 merci beaucoup 15:30:12 about expiring teletrap, we need 2 types. Permanent for vaults and number of charges for random ones. 15:30:16 yes 15:44:17 note that in some places, making teleport traps non-permanent makes things far easier. Tomb for example. 15:44:49 what failure for evocalbe TC? The formula is failure = x - 2 * evoc. x = 40 for levitate/blink, 50 for berserk and 60 for invisibility. 15:44:50 or the "cathedral" Crypt ending 15:45:27 I haven't looked what is the roll against the failure 15:45:36 I think 50 should do it 15:46:01 kilobyte: why? Because of traps in corridor? 15:47:01 I had 2 zot traps in the way right next to each other last time I did tomb. Had to go back, learn LRD and train some earth just to avoid them. Ugh. 15:47:44 I would be nice if the level builder could avoid putting teletrap and zot traps in corridors in tomb. 15:48:21 kilobyte: yes 15:48:52 galehar: that is easy to do 15:49:06 all the traps are placed by the map, I think 15:50:36 Eronarn: someone wants to draw an octopode tile and is asking a few questions 15:50:38 Is the Octopode supposed to be an straight-up octopus? Does it have any magical modifications? Should it be slightly non-realistic? Are there any other requirements or preferences I should be aware of? 15:53:54 cTele mail sent 15:53:59 -!- dummypeg is now known as dpeg 15:54:23 kilobyte: tell me when you have time & mood to discuss Oki gifts. I really know what I want there, and I can even explain it. 15:59:34 galehar: my understanding is that it's supposed to look like those from Japanese/Chinese advertising 16:01:29 dpeg: I just read the cTele proposal, it looks reasonable... but I have to say I rarely use semicontrolled blink anyway 16:01:31 dpeg: I'm afraid that there are pretty big problems. Like, with your yesterday's explanation, you have no way to reject "improvements" while they make the slot ineligible. 16:02:03 and you will get that whooping powerful scroll of EA onto your +0 gloves on the very first action 16:02:13 kilobyte: re cTele: but you not abusing it does not mean we shouldn't address it :) 16:02:37 (you meant elliptic, right?) 16:02:43 erm, yes 16:02:59 irssi shows highlighted aliases in yellow, so I go by namelength only :O 16:03:08 well, if I thought it was abusable I would abuse it :P 16:03:14 galehar: octopodes are giant, being not as tall as a person, but much bulkier (because they're more spherical). they are otherwise identical to normal cephalopods, and look like them. the existing tile is a good size guide 16:03:15 kilobyte: the chance for improving +0 is not so big 16:03:36 they could be a bit smaller than depicted there but i wanted hats to work 16:03:46 elliptic: you don't think that semi-cBlink is one of the cheapest way to escape? 16:04:06 dpeg: I just noticed that part of the proposal is to make ring of teleport passive... I don't like this at all and I don't understand the motivation 16:04:25 Eronarn: how similar to this: http://images.wikia.com/ogrebattlesaga/images/f/fc/Octopus2.gif ? 16:04:25 elliptic: no more infinite sources of teleportation 16:04:31 the biggest problem with temporary gifts is that it just makes Okawaru like Xom: you get "flashed" with things you will not get, which is insulting for the player and doesn't appear to have an upside beyond having less piety cost when you drop junk gifts 16:04:33 Eronarn: have you seen octodad? that's how I imagine them 16:04:39 if it is passive only then it is a useless item, we don't need more of those 16:04:51 elliptic: not strictly useless 16:04:58 (but I could also live with removal) 16:05:02 or in the very very rare situations where it isn't useless, it is now really annoying 16:05:25 http://i56.tinypic.com/r9hh6a.png <-- the existing tile 16:05:26 I don't understand why infinite teleportation is a problem... wands and scrolls are plentiful anyway 16:05:33 with proposed numbers, there's a very slight chance of having anything permanent, and you can't really do anything about it 16:05:38 elliptic: even more reason to remove the infinite source 16:05:52 well, rings make sure you don't get stuck 16:06:23 dpeg: but the ring meant lots of interesting choices! 16:06:25 i don't care about how stylized it is, though in general tile player races aren't that stylized 16:06:35 making rings a last-resort item could be good: a much smaller chance of successful evocation 16:06:39 do I use the time to put it on and use it, or waste a scroll 16:06:46 kilobyte: I don't think you give the proposal full credit here... you can make that gift permanent, it just works in two stages. Stage 1: get gift. If the player uses it, try to proceed to Step 2: kill something impressive to make it permanent. (The rules are such that if you're using the thing, the permanence check comes first.) 16:07:13 elliptic: as a tactical choice? 16:07:15 the chance of successful evocation already is fair or so on most chars 16:07:31 yes, especially early on it is an interesting choice 16:07:59 sigh, it is always like this 16:08:28 you come up with a fully fledged out proposal, and then some aspect draws criticism... and then nothing happens 16:08:51 mainly I just don't like making an interesting item near-useless when this isn't at all necessary... the rest of the proposal is independent of this afaict 16:09:11 -!- Galefury_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:09:19 elliptic: the ring proposal follows from the stuff before. I like the idea of announcing hostile teleports (that's an anti-nerf). If we do this, then hostile teleports can be cancelled as usual. Do you really want the ring to do that? 16:09:53 not sure what you mean by "announcing hostile teleports" 16:09:57 -!- Galefury has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:10:07 anti-nerf? is that like a buff in WoW terms? 16:10:24 elliptic: teleportitis would announce a teleport a few turns in advance 16:10:26 -!- Galefury_ is now known as Galefury 16:11:04 though the mail says it all 16:11:05 oh, I did not realize that teleportitis was going to be made non-instant 16:11:05 dpeg: numbers you proposed mean you need to kill around one tough monster per 5 turns to have an even chance of permanentising. "tough" stands for "routine fight but things might go south even 1-on-1, and you'll almost always need to be in a corridor, quaff potions, etc when fighting multiplies", like stone giants around V:8 or D:27, "nasty" is "you need to quaff potions and pause to think even 1-on-1". 16:11:30 whats wrong with having an infinite source of teleport? 16:11:47 Galefury: trivialises the finite sources of teleportß 16:11:51 it isn't exactly spelled out given that that is probably one of the largest changes there... given that, I can see your reasoning for ring of teleport better 16:12:21 elliptic: just re-reading it, I'd say that 1-3 spell it out clearly :P 16:12:22 I could also see making hostile teleports uncancelable, though 16:12:35 nobody expects that they are currently 16:12:39 elliptic: but this is much more interesting, isn't it? 16:12:44 possibly, yes 16:12:54 well, I have cancelled naga caster teleports on me 16:12:58 but the whole "teleport cancels teleport" business is quite spoilery 16:13:08 elliptic: no, it is clearly stated in the manual 16:13:31 well, you can state anything in the manual... 16:13:43 well, if you have to go a rules lawyer, it's not that good for a smooth play 16:13:59 all I'm saying is that people often are surprised by this when they hear about it on ##crawl 16:14:00 elliptic: that is not fair. If it is in the manual, it is not spoiler content 16:14:14 it's not intuitive, then 16:14:25 * dpeg gives up 16:14:42 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:14:45 :/ 16:14:47 beh... 16:14:48 dpeg: I don't think anyone would expect it or think "maybe tele cancels tele" and then go check if it's true in the manual. 16:15:10 it's an interesting mechanic... it could just be made clearer 16:15:36 Yeah, I had no idea that existed. 16:15:42 well, the main point of the change proposed is to make teleportitis manageable with consumables instead of TC. 16:16:14 it is manageable without TC already 16:16:22 even without stasis 16:16:57 dangerous, sure, but that's not the same thing at all 16:17:10 anyway from what i read of the proposed changes, it looks like they're good ideas on the whole 16:17:11 well, it's still one of the nastiest mutation, and TC and stasis are the only 2 ways to counter it (appart from curing it of course). 16:18:06 TC is just too powerful right now, especially since you can control hostile teleports (trap, spell and teleportitis) 16:18:32 marvinpa: yeah, as I said at start they seemed reasonable... I just had a couple comments :/ 16:18:38 you can just teleport again if you fall into a nasty place... certain vaults (like some branch ends) can make it dangerous, but it's manageable 16:18:41 I proposed to make it unable to control hostile teleports, and evilmike pointed out that it would remove one of the few way to deal with teleportitis. 16:19:33 then dpeg proposed to give a delay to teleportitis to give you the time to use consumable to counter it. 16:19:58 or switch to stasis 16:19:59 what about this: 1. teleports are uncancellable, 2. hostile teleports can't be controlled, 3. teleportitis is both announced and, on levels 1 and 2, reduced to a radius smaller than the entire level 16:20:37 (with a small enough radius even being announced is not needed) 16:20:40 perhaps the time between announcing and teleporting also decreases as the mutation level increases 16:20:59 Wensley: yes 16:21:22 kilobyte: that still leaves stasis as the only counter 16:21:46 galehar: yeah, but it's nowhere as bad anymore 16:21:48 honestly, I think teleportitis is a really fun mutation, don't know why you guys want to counter it :P 16:21:51 why does every mutation need lots of counters 16:22:12 teleportitis is nowhere near as annoyingly crippling as berserkitis can be, anyway 16:22:20 so yeah, i don't think it's a problem necessarily 16:22:30 berserkitis is a cure-prevent-or-die one, yeah, teleportitis not really 16:23:25 I do like the idea of reducing the radius of the tele with teleportitis (maybe also with the power of the source of the teleport?), gives it sort of a blinkitis feel 16:23:47 fine, teleportitis is not that bad. So we just change TC so it can't control hostile teleports and we're good. 16:24:35 is there any reason why the mutation should be viewed as hostile, anyway? 16:24:48 it isn't like the mutation is a monster trying to get you 16:25:06 it's an involuntary teleport. 16:25:31 alternatively, controlling hostile teleports could simply give you more glow than usual 16:25:34 if you can control (and cancel) teleports, it makes the mutation almost a good thing (appart branch ends) 16:25:45 right, what's wrong with the mutation being useful sometimes? 16:26:46 a not that small part of "bad" ones are often useful, and quite a number of "good" ones are detrimental 16:27:11 if cTele is changed to an evocable property i guess you'd need either evoc or tloc skill invested to put up control teleport for it, anyway 16:27:24 but i dunno, i'd be fine with it going either way personally 16:28:59 -!- syllogism- has joined ##crawl-dev 16:29:55 -!- syllogism has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:31:02 on a related note, what about the abyss sometimes instantly teleporting you when you blink. 16:31:14 isn't it spoilery and abusable? 16:32:06 yes 16:32:23 it should just blink you normally when it works at all, IMO 16:32:56 I agree 16:34:24 ok, so do you guys think we should just remove the ability to cancel teleports? Because I don't see how we can easily explain it in-game. 16:38:20 I think that's fine, anyone with ctele anyway can already tele to the spot that they're at, unless the fuzz screws them up 16:38:30 it's sort of a cool mechanic but i wouldn't miss it that much if there's not a better way of explaining it 16:39:39 I meant cancel a teleport with another. Not with TC. 16:39:58 oh, well go ahead and remove that too :P 16:47:13 Didn't you guys said most ideas from dpeg's proposal were good? What to keep? Evokable TC from ring? no control of hostile teleports? increase level of TC spell? 16:49:58 pretty much all of it i'd say, yeah 16:50:29 evocable tele control sounds good, remove the mutation, bump cTele up a level maybe? not certain if that's necessary 16:51:11 galehar: we can have other ways of canceling teleports: swap to stasis is already in, perhaps some new spell that does it. i don't think teleport being the way to cancel teleports needs to stay 16:53:08 what about teleportitis delay? 16:53:09 if swapping to stasis cures teleport shouldn't swapping to rPois cure poison? 16:53:40 and cause glowing 16:53:46 no, different things can work differently :P 16:54:20 and teleportitis delay sounds fine also, i guess even though you can't cancel the teleport it would at least give you a warning? 16:54:40 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 16:54:48 what if, instead of canceling teleport, you just had an option to delay it 16:54:58 still i think the glowing thing is nice, when an amulet or something prevents some effect, bam -> glow 16:54:59 and the more you delayed, the less chance of your eventual teleport being controlled 16:55:15 by repeatedly re-teleing yourself? 16:55:35 rather than reducing the chance of control, you can increase the glow that occurs 16:56:52 MarvinPA: a warning that you can't cancel it with another teleport? Because you can cancel it by switching to TC or stasis. 16:57:17 nono, i just mean that the existence of a delay on teleportitis would warn you that you're about to be teleported 16:57:24 which you don't get currently 16:57:31 Choosing "Viable Background" can result in Reaver (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4133) by battaile 16:57:41 well, yes, that's the point of the delay 16:58:12 exactly! :P 16:59:13 MarvinPA: would you be interested in implementing those changes? 17:01:06 hm, i might not volunteer for it just yet, i keep meaning to take a look at the demons branch stuff 17:01:11 -!- syllogism- has quit [] 17:02:20 but i'd probably be up for giving it a go at some point if nobody else does 17:03:40 ok 17:04:16 also i need to try and win an octopode! :P 17:04:27 of course :) 17:04:32 I've read abjuration is split with single target and mass abjuration in the demons branch. Sounds great. 17:04:47 I need to try and win anything... 17:05:03 What's the status of Makhleb now, does he restore mana? (Trunk) 17:05:10 no 17:05:13 yeah, that's why i'm keen to take a look at it and hopefully get it merged 17:05:14 just HP 17:05:25 i think he does restore mp again now, but less than before 17:05:36 oh really? I missed that. 17:05:47 Ok, sounds good. 17:05:54 kilobyte reverted marvinpa's change for some reason 17:06:10 i thought it was a rather good change, not convinced it made him useless for casters at all :/ 17:06:14 but ah well 17:07:14 i've not seen how much it's been toned down, i guess i should give it a try in the endgame 17:07:21 revert his revert when you fix TSO HP/MP on kills to depend on your XL 17:08:11 I haven't had a chance to try it either, but I'm concerned it might make DD more problematic... obviously DD can take a nerf, but people are already really reluctant to play most DD 17:08:57 remember that time people thought it was a good idea to remove DD wand of healing, wasn't that a blast 17:09:11 people thought that? 17:09:13 yes 17:09:45 i kinda wish DD was somehow more viable (but difficult) without divine healing, and less crazy overpowered with divine healing 17:09:53 but no idea how that could actually be achieved :P 17:09:57 I mean, makhleb design shouldn't depend on DD issues 17:10:07 I'm just curious how that will play out 17:10:24 why would it nerf dd if hp on kills is still there? 17:10:31 hp on kills was reduced 17:10:33 the hp gain was toned down as well 17:10:38 even at level 27? 17:10:45 so now makhleb is like mini-TSO that works on all monsters 17:10:48 your XL doesn't matter 17:10:50 level doesn't affect it 17:11:03 TSO healing reduced the same as makh's i believe 17:11:07 was reduced* 17:11:19 oh, so now they are identical gods again? nice 17:11:25 yup :P 17:12:39 i think someone (st?) suggested removing TSO healing on kills entirely, i'd be kinda interested in seeing that personally 17:12:44 all dd can start with vampiric weapons :P 17:12:55 removing TSO healing on kills would give room for giving him some new ability 17:13:12 apotheosis: turns you into an angel 17:13:13 TSO has like a billion other stuff, why does he give a bonus on killing random goblins? 17:13:19 he doesn't 17:13:27 oh goo 17:13:27 tso has very few abilities 17:13:29 goblins aren't evil 17:14:09 it'd also probably make a bunch more gods viable in the late game, zin and ely ought to be pretty great but TSO just outshines them by so much later on 17:14:59 eh, I basically never go TSO nowadays and I'm still not attracted to zin/ely extended endgame 17:15:15 imo give sanctuary to ely and make new stuff for zin 17:15:16 right, me neither because i don't want to go without necromancy 17:15:18 zin hells do sound good though 17:15:40 but i can certainly see that they ought to be good, if only makh wasn't so ridiculously appealing :P 17:15:41 aside from the part where I don't understand why zin can do that 17:16:02 elliptic: zin being able to shield you from higher powers in general could be neat 17:16:23 seems worse than chei slowing down abyss and that's pretty strange too 17:16:49 eronarn: maybe I could see some sort of protection, but shutting down the whole business? 17:16:56 chei slowing down abyss makes me so sad :( 17:17:25 oh, is it not piety based right now 17:17:33 it's piety/200 17:17:34 eronarn: maybe zin could just protect from the miscast effects but not the summons 17:17:42 it is guaranteed at max piety, yeah 17:18:21 I mean, if the hells are summoning hordes of monsters and sending them at you periodically, how does zin piety help with that 17:20:29 yeah, that makes sense 17:20:56 anything that affects 'you' he can block, but not hostile agents 17:23:53 what about the miscast effects that summon things? 17:24:24 granted, most hell summons aren't from those, but a few are 17:25:04 yeah, you'd have to do them case by case, probably 17:52:17 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:13:50 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:22:37 is there a reason to keep the CLUA_BINDINGS define? Trying to disable it currently results in a build failure, and without it current autofight doesn't work. 18:25:52 all I could come up is that Apple App Store has a thing about not letting anything with something Turing-complete accessible to the user anywhere near their precious devices, but it's not like such a port is likely 18:27:13 I'm asking this because 1. some distro maintainers think it's a working setting, 2. autofight is too dumb to live in its current implementation, it needs to be improved -- either in Lua or in C 18:29:38 we could always disable autofight if we ever were to make an iOS port. It's not like it's necessary. 18:30:33 03MarvinPA * r951cdefcc956 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Make Mennas hang on to his weapon of holy wrath 18:31:17 doesn't a license to develop on iOS cost mad bux? 18:32:07 the biggest beef I have with current autofight is that it can't even walk straight 18:33:07 travel code has an anti zig-zag feature 18:33:25 maybe we can use it for autofight 18:35:15 it's not about zig-zag, it's about a greedy algorithm instead of following a beam 18:36:26 reasons for doing it in C: 1. it would be a lot of work to expose pathfinding and beams to Lua, 2. there's an idea of making berserk make you completely lose control. Reasons for doing it in Lua: easier to customize. 18:37:28 well, if berserk makes ou lose control, we don't want the user to customize the behaviour 18:37:35 *you 18:37:36 heh, enforcing autofight while zerking 18:39:28 anyway, don't really know this code, so I can't tell 18:39:30 if it's enforced, it should at least be able to enter doors and don't stare blankly beyond a single square of water you can walk around 18:39:42 example for the former: http://sprunge.us/EVdB 18:40:07 the monster is K... pressing autofight will go to "a" instead of moving to the left 18:41:45 I almost suggested using the monster AI before I remembered what mons-act.cc looks like. 18:41:57 heh... just started a game, and it hit a similar case on the very first monster :p 18:42:56 but we can use monster's pathfinding. We can pathfind to the nearest monster each turn. 18:44:50 so berserkers just press any button at all and the game does its thing? 18:45:42 sounds awesome :) 18:46:10 "nearest in pathfind's view", not "nearest as a crow flies", of course 18:46:18 I am basically in love with the idea of berseker players literally punching the keyboard to win 18:46:56 the berserker playstyle is limited enough as it is, removing control in combat doesn't seem like it would be that interesting 18:47:20 also I'd be worried about cases where you are fighting multiple monsters at once. When you hit berserk and it goes all automatic, what do you wind up attacking? 18:47:40 closest monster 18:47:43 I think that berserkers definitely need a way to make berserk more interesting, seeing as how it is their schtick 18:47:48 how is that a good idea? 18:47:49 what if you are surrounded 18:47:53 break ties by attacking most threatening 18:47:54 galehar: i mean when multiple monsters are next to you 18:47:56 Autofight right now doesn't exactly make the most logical choices in those kinds of fights 18:48:01 how do you define most threatening 18:48:30 tension (use Ash's tier algorithm) 18:48:30 whats the point of something like this? 18:48:56 evilmike: first improve autofight of course. That's what kilobyte is talking about. 18:48:59 wtf? are we seriously discussing using autofight for berserk? 18:49:10 that's straight out of bad ideas 18:49:11 but what if monster A is very dangerous, but at full health, and monster B is only quite dangerous, but almost dead. you'd almost certainly want to spend a turn killing monster B first, even though it's worth less XP 18:49:20 alos, if something like that went in, I'd do 99% of berserk fighting in corridors 18:49:27 because that would let me control what I attack 18:49:34 Wensley: thats the point of losing control 18:49:42 also its one of the reasons i think it would be a horrible idea 18:49:44 right now I can at least feel comfortable doing things like jumping into vault 8 and berserking the entire greeting party 18:49:56 autofight currently picks the first monster it finds -- starting from the northwestern corner 18:50:11 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:52:32 -!- kilobyte has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:52:41 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 19:06:01 -!- jooosa has joined ##crawl-dev 19:06:28 -!- joosa has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:06:29 -!- 16SAAHY0N is now known as joosa 19:07:34 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:11:39 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27:40 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110420140830]] 19:29:01 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 19:39:43 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 20:02:15 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:09:17 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:17:11 -!- Galefury has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:28:50 -!- hoody_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:31:05 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:33:56 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 20:42:14 yay, finally Sourceforge managed to stay up long enough for me to upload 0.8.1 20:43:06 not sure if there's a point in a post that says just "a bunch of minor bugfixes" 20:45:22 Windows builds work on win2k again, and I built them with -flto (+~25% speedup) to ensure there's potential for new breakage 20:54:23 kilobyte: a post to the blog, you mean? 20:55:16 because a post announcing a new minor bugfix version is still good to have, and could be accompanied by a prospective timetable for 0.9 20:56:02 there's no timetable known yet 20:56:35 depends mostly on when the tourney would be 20:57:08 ah, I thought that you were targeting for later next month 20:58:46 if the tourney would start August 1st, branching would need to happen at the start of July at the latest 20:59:41 It would be worth making an announcement about a minor bugfix release, even if it doesn't say much more than that. I'm sure there are plenty of people who get their crawl related news from that blog 20:59:41 and release around 24th to leave space for the inevitable slippage 21:04:49 Stable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.8.1-0-g3982a66 (32) 23:00:36 -!- elliptic_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:01:11 -!- elliptic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:01:26 -!- elliptic_ is now known as elliptic 23:08:01 -!- petete has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:47:41 -!- hoody_ has joined ##crawl-dev