00:00:46 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-284-gd757680 (32) 00:07:16 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:08:02 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-284-gd757680 00:15:31 -!- Guest85572 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:16:11 -!- Guest85572 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:14:23 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:19:20 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:43:34 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:44:04 hi 02:44:05 galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 02:44:09 !messages 02:44:10 (1/1) kilobyte said (1d 13h 25m 23s ago): Is bfadcac8 for 0.8 as well? 02:52:53 !tell kilobyte I don't think so. It's a fix for 1178c4e4 which I think isn't in 0.8. Or pick both. 02:52:55 galehar: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 03:44:39 -!- st_ has quit [] 03:54:38 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 04:02:57 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 04:03:06 morning 04:03:32 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:05:28 -!- evilmike has quit [] 04:13:40 bah.. so sad when a scroll of enchant weapon III does nothing to a +4,+4 weapon :-/ 04:17:41 I'm thinking of decreasing the probability of the Abyss shifting if the player is in a vault, in sight of a vault, altar, or gateway 04:18:13 ??enchant weapon[2] 04:18:14 enchant weapon[2/3]: Odds of success for enchant weapon i and ii: <+4: 100%; +4: 56%; +5: 44%; +6: 33%; +7: 22%; +8: 11% . The maximum enchantment on a mundane weapon is +9 +9 04:18:34 so ew3 will do nothing in nearly one in four cases 04:19:00 bmh: that would be a good idea 04:19:24 bmh: that'd be quite artificial 04:19:40 kilobyte: vaults *are* artificial -- why hasn't the abyss devoured them? 04:19:45 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 04:19:54 Xom for example has code to detect that and enjoy it 04:20:32 Abyss is not pure chaos, more like corrupted fragments of many worlds 04:20:39 and he can still enjoy it. I'm not suggesting anchoring the player, simply that we should adjust the probability down if you're fighting your way through a rune vault 04:21:20 WebTiles: changing tab in Firefox with a shortcut causes a move (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4075) by Medar 04:30:32 there's easy enough lore explanations for that. the mere existence of a vault implies that this area of the abyss is a bit stabler than usual. same deal with exit portals. 04:31:23 WebTiles: can't use dead keys (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4076) by Medar 04:31:41 ZorbaBeta: My thoughts exactly. What's the purpose of shifting the abyss anyway? It isn't to annoy the player. 04:37:07 bmh: but aren't you changing shifting to morphing? 04:38:20 galehar: Feel free to replace shifting with morphing in my previous statements. I'm happy to retain discontinuous shifts, but I don't know if they should be as frequent 04:38:33 I believe it's better to make (nearby) vaults morph into the new Abyss layer rather than fiddle with shifting timers. 04:39:08 dpeg: as in decay into the Abyss? 04:40:05 shifts are annoying. If we overhaul the abyss and have morphing, I think we can remove shifts. 04:40:30 I think we still need the shift code to handle translocations 04:41:26 there are too many discontinous bubbles to have no shifts 04:42:03 kilobyte: I've fixed it up since you last saw it. I'd say that at least 95% of the abyss is connected at this point. 04:42:46 with generally walking forward, or with mad backtracking? 04:43:02 depends on if you're flying. 04:46:47 are we going to kill off maprot? 04:52:11 I don't think so. How would we handle the torus map without map rot? 04:53:45 The abyss isn't toroidal, it's infinite -- how about keeping maprot, but showing squares that are within LOS but that are currently unseen? 04:57:06 or what about timed maprot? 04:57:15 like in labs? 04:57:55 bmh: it's supposed to be infinite, but the implementation is toroidal. Or did you also changed that? 04:58:04 I meant something more consistent rather than purely random, with no rot at all for a period of time and guaranteed rot later 04:58:19 galehar: how would it be toroidal? 04:58:47 galehar: nothing wraps back, there's a sliding window over an infinite map 04:58:56 if left and right edges are connected and up and down edges too, doesn't that make it a torus? 04:59:25 galehar: I don't understand -- how would they be connected? 04:59:38 I thought it wrapped 05:00:27 if you come close enough to an edge, the map slides by an amount and newly uncovered parts are generated 05:00:44 was it always like that? 05:01:39 at least as far as I've been around 05:01:54 galehar: Looking at the logs, Darshan implemented it that way about 6 years ago :-) 05:02:05 I remember reading somewhere that optimal abyss exploration required to walk at an angle because if you went straight, you would be back at the same spot. 05:02:20 so that's a case of really outdated spoiler. Must have been on the wiki :) 05:03:33 back on topic, I like kilobyte's timed maprot idea 05:03:43 and I have to go 05:03:46 'later 05:13:52 wow, next ew3 gave +0,+1 -> +4,+5 05:14:14 Napkin: sounds like you're having a bad day :-) 05:14:26 nah, not really 05:15:12 but bad enough to whine a bit about those odds, which i'm quite used to ;) 05:16:02 considering the rarity of ew3, such results are very disappointing 05:16:31 but i already know, that this whining won't change anything 05:17:45 hrm, grabbing morgues from CAO takes ages... ~30 players per hour, there are 1592 players with >1 tourney0.8 points, and 14k accounts on CAO 05:18:41 compared to a simple find+tar+gzip+scp on CDO, it not only takes long but also puts far more strain on the server 05:19:47 rax: would you reconsider? Please :p 05:30:36 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:34:02 swamp and shoals 05:34:05 *sigh* 05:34:26 Napkin: I thought you got swamp OR shoals? 05:34:35 those branches are just work, work, work.. 05:35:01 bmh: you get 2 out of snake, swamp and shoals 05:35:05 ah-ha 05:35:23 "work" at work is more fun than always having to do swamp & shoals! ;-P 05:35:26 The only time I've ever cleared Swamp I was a HOPr with a big old club of berserking and rSlow 05:36:19 having snake pit for a change feels like holiday 05:37:08 hmm. 05:37:10 while having to play shoals feels like punishment 05:37:16 Napkin: isn't swamp easier than snake? 05:37:46 galehar_: I think it strongly depends on if you have rPois 05:37:46 or maybe you just hate water. Are you playing a felid? :) 05:37:46 nah, not since bog mummies, vampire mosquitos and insubstantial whisps 05:38:14 -!- Guest85572 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:38:21 -!- Guest85572 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:38:33 and shoals is just a big show and waiting eats up all food ;> 05:38:45 if i may be a bit extreme for a change ;) 05:39:21 waiting? For the tide? Are you going there without lev? 05:39:38 i'll rather go sit in the sun, have a smoke and play solitaire instead ;-P 05:39:48 something should be done about insubstantial wisps, they're so boring and tedious 05:40:29 let me guess.. ring of levitation? potions? 05:40:54 considering levitation has random (again!) duration, it's not really cool to use 05:41:00 only for emergencies 05:41:16 ??insubstantial_wisp 05:41:17 insubstantial wisp[1/4]: Not so damn insubstantial. Bloody maddening monster that is nearly immune to everything except physical damage (and they're unpleasantly resistant to that, too!). Comes in packs and is common in swamp. Casters can use Magic Dart, Mystic Blast, Airstrike, Poison Arrow, or damaging Earth spells. Ice users should use Throw Icicle. 05:41:40 lately i had boots of levitation as an artefact, which additionally had rElec and MR.. and the perma-levitation was lost because of that :-/ 05:41:41 ??insubstantial_wisp[2] 05:41:41 insubstantial wisp[2/4]: Insubstantial wisps are like a screaming monkey on your windshield, It's unlikely to kill you directly But all you can see is the monkey 05:41:45 @??insubstantial wisp 05:41:45 insubstantial wisp (15v) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 6-18 | AC/EV: 20/20 | Damage: 1206(blink) | Flags: 11non-living, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire++, 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 137 | Sp: blink. 05:42:00 greensnark++ 05:42:32 why do they have such a high AC? 05:46:09 good question 05:46:10 bmh, you wondered about how level generation is done? 05:46:10 Zaba: apart from Abyss. I'm looking to generalize my code and want to 'do it right' 05:46:10 bmh, well, it all starts and ends with dungeon.cc:builder 05:46:10 Zaba: alright, I'll dive in 05:46:10 bmh, the chain of functions is fairly obvious 05:46:10 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:46:52 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:46:52 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 05:51:09 Napkin: you can't have artefact boots of levitation (at most randart boots with evokable lev) 05:56:55 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 05:57:00 i think it said so, kilobyte 05:57:00 having the levitation in the top text, and then the 2 additional attributes below 05:57:00 as usually 05:57:00 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:57:48 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:57:48 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:06:43 okay, so I implemented ORIENT: lua:function_that_returns_coordinates_for_the_vault() 06:06:47 but now I can't recall what I needed it for 06:15:50 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:33:35 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:33:35 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:34:48 Zaba: Nice, I need to remember that :] 06:35:11 Keskitalo, but, it's not really such a good idea 06:35:35 there is no guarantee that the vault can be placed on the given coordinates 06:36:12 You could use that to clump the serial vault vaults close together; I recall this was a feature request 06:36:45 could use subvaults for that 06:36:46 greesnark or dpeg wanted to be able to do that 06:37:00 dynamically generate a 'container' vault with several subvaults and such :P 06:43:21 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:44:09 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:44:09 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 07:18:31 How about boosting the effect of evocations on wands and rods? 07:18:33 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:skills:evocations 07:21:03 I like the thought. Do we have to discount the power of rods/wands to make them not wildly more powerful? 07:21:33 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:28:58 What do you mean? The point is to make them more powerful with high evocation. 07:29:18 galehar: Sounds good to me! 07:37:27 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 07:55:57 kilobyte: I've got some questions about png files. When saving one in gimp, is there any option I should or shouldn't use? (save background colour, resolution, date, values of transparent pixels, compression) 07:56:09 any post-processing or compression i should do before committing? 08:00:19 -!- ZorbaBeta has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:00:50 -!- ZorbaBeta has joined ##crawl-dev 08:06:18 bmh: the new abyss is really great 08:06:32 timed maprot and some morphing would make it awesome :) 08:09:58 could clouds from fog be a little more less see through? 08:11:49 little more less? 08:11:53 you mean more dense? 08:12:57 I guess it could. It's not good to evaporating a potion of water is a more reliable way of blocking los 08:13:50 making ?fog more reliable would boost melee. Sounds good. 08:14:14 Then I can make ranged AI even more cunning... 08:14:24 oh maybe leave fog as is and change scrolls of fog to scrolls of smoke 08:15:58 ? of fog produce smoke 08:17:31 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 08:24:48 galehar: background colour of transparent pixels is irrelevant (and thus a waste of space), print resolution, creation date, etc, too 08:25:36 it's good to recompress files though... you can often get nearly half the file size compared to what's produced by Gimp and sometimes even 1/40th of what Corel Something produces 08:26:55 best compression I know: optipng -o4 -i0 -fix image.png;advpng -z4 image.png 08:27:38 ok, noted. 08:27:40 thanks 08:27:42 the former reduces color depth to to whatever data is actually present in the file, the latter does recompression 08:28:48 (-fix also corrects some junk attached to the file, -i0 drops interlacing that would spook advpng into refusing to work due to an unsupported option) 08:33:57 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:57:16 elliptic: Why is your SpEn win listed as having no runes? Did you drop them before leaving the dungeon? 08:57:24 yes 08:57:38 punk :-) 08:57:45 (I actually dropped them right after using them to open zot) 08:58:41 they weigh 30 aum so this is really the intelligent thing to do whenever carrying capacity is an issue... you can pick the runes up on the way up if you care about score 08:58:57 (10 aum each, to be clear, but you have at least 3 of them) 08:59:25 runes used to unlock zot should disappear :P 08:59:26 when you're doing a 15 rune game, do you deposit the runes at D:1 before snagging the orb? 08:59:29 yeah... and since many people don't care about score, this falsifies logs 09:00:03 bmh: that's what I do, but I never cared about turncount 09:00:04 bmh: sometimes, though usually I don't bother 09:01:40 I proposed goldifying runes before but some folks disagreed 09:02:15 goldifying how/when? 09:02:25 ortoslon: make them weightless / not take up inventory slots 09:03:00 but what about this: nrune and score is runes you carry, urune runes you found, if urune != count(uniq runes carried) show a warning when going upstairs from D:1 09:03:27 kilobyte: what's the argument against goldifying them? That rune weight poses a legitimate challenge? 09:03:29 my only source of disagreement for goldifying runes is that I'd like the runes to be very visible still... maybe we could display them on the % screen? 09:03:54 !seen greensnark 09:03:55 I last saw greensnark at Sun May 15 06:50:34 2011 UTC (2w 1d 7h 13m 21s ago) joining the channel. 09:03:57 elliptic: I do like that idea. Is there space on the screen? 09:04:13 elliptic: that, and perhaps even elsewhere (like "i" but as one line) 09:04:17 or maybe there's a better place... still I think runes are shiny object and shouldn't just disappear like gold does :) 09:04:31 yeah, putting them in i sounds good too 09:05:08 We can put them in \ 09:05:27 also making them weightless would require another explanation for apportation difficulties 09:05:30 kilobyte: your proposal of keeping track of number of runes found sounds reasonable too, though there is also the issue with demonic rune duplication 09:06:28 ortoslon: they're bolted to the floor ;) 09:07:41 ortoslon: there's no difficulty with runes... weight 10 lets you apport them even with pretty little power 09:08:01 sorry i confused them with the orb 09:08:23 bmh: so you take damage from apporting if you don't dodge the nails? :) 09:08:25 kilobyte: after marvinpa's recent apport nerf, they won't go the full distance without reasonably good power 09:08:55 what's the power for range 8 weight 10? 09:09:42 I haven't looked at his formulas and it probably still isn't hard to get if you actually train translocations 09:10:03 but low-power apportation is fairly hilarious now... everything moves 1 or 2 squares, pretty much 09:11:31 interesting... the new formula gives mass an infinitessimally effect 09:11:39 ^small 09:12:01 1 + (pow - apported_mass / 20) / 10 09:12:40 Apportation should work like gravity. The farther away the object is, the less it moves 09:12:43 elliptic: this would look cool on a mass apportation spell 09:13:01 ortoslon: I just had the same thought! 09:13:26 kilobyte: wow, that formula doesn't sound right at all... 09:13:34 -!- degroves has joined ##crawl-dev 09:13:38 you need power 70 (pretty high) for a weighless item, 100 for biggest items you'd ever want to apport (large rocks, new orb) 09:13:54 (mass is in units of 0.1 aum) 09:14:47 -!- degroves has left ##crawl-dev 09:16:21 can low-powered apportation drown items? 09:18:33 no, but they'll silently fail to move at all (costing you mp and time) 09:24:41 -!- OG17 has quit [] 09:25:46 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:26:18 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:27:09 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:27:15 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 09:30:22 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:32:32 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 09:33:36 so, any feedback on my proposal for evocations? https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:skills:evocations 09:33:49 I'm generally supportive. 09:35:15 galehar: I didn't look at the numbers, but you're right about the issue 09:35:41 most people don't even know the skill has an effect on wands, beyond being trained by them 09:35:49 and the effect is about nil 09:36:12 well, I'd like feedback about the numbers :) 09:36:20 I've made charts (as usual)! 09:39:20 what about randomised power? Any reason to keep it? 09:40:11 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:40:31 galehar: I'm ambivalent about randomization here. If you do keep it, I would make the deviation small 09:40:52 or something like a 1 in x chance of a 'surge of power' 09:41:31 bmh: actual effects already provide randomization on their own, no need to do that twice 09:41:56 galehar: in that case, what kilobyte said 09:42:17 galehar: uh, this is a huge buff to rod power, right? 09:42:26 this will cause problems with bolt of inacc if nothing else 09:43:33 so you'll have to change its damage formula or something :) 09:43:54 well yes, the idea is to buff the skill. But I'm not sure about the numbers. 09:43:57 elliptic: at 27 evoc. The boost is modest otherwise, it just skyrockets at very high skill. 09:44:27 even at 10 skill, the proposal in the spreadsheet looks like 27 power rather than 15 power 09:44:31 about everything else gets sub-linear gains, not super-linear 09:44:31 unless I'm misreading something 09:44:41 so it's kind of an anti-stepdown 09:45:10 kilobyte: sorry, not sure what you mean? 09:45:26 elliptic: I can change that by increasing a and b. 09:45:30 oh, yes, anti-stepdown 09:45:34 elliptic: spell power of 27 is pretty low 09:45:40 I noted that too 09:45:45 kilobyte: not for bolt of inacc 09:46:00 bolt of inacc is already overpowered probably 09:46:02 -!- jooosa has joined ##crawl-dev 09:46:13 that's a problem with inacc, not spells which are castable by wizards 09:46:26 which is easily curable 09:46:31 yeah, just pointing out that something has to be done about inacc 09:46:49 I don't know exactly how much damage 99 power inacc does but it is probably absurd 09:47:15 so why do we want super-linear gains? 09:47:55 because high skill level requires a lot of XP 09:48:17 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 09:48:43 if we have diminishing returns (like weapon skills), then training it all the way to 27 is a waste. 09:50:49 I think linear would be fine 09:52:56 galehar: this points to a problem with weapon skills 09:54:09 maybe start out wand power a bit lower at evoc 0 09:54:29 we already give too much for free to people who luck into an early wand of fire or whatever 09:54:40 as your skill rises, you get: 1. big gains as your accuracy grows, 2. a period of slow growth, 3. massive growth as you near the mindelay, 4. almost nothing 09:55:48 elliptic: good idea... or, we could make big wands harder to use but keep small ones easy 09:55:57 (got to go, though) 09:57:38 what value should I aim for at skill level 27? 100? 120? Same for wands and rods or different? 10:00:01 not sure... I worry about high-power rods a bit (not just for inacc) but I'm not sure how it will actually play 10:04:21 I've updated the chart for linear. Wands= 15 + sk * 3, Rods= 5 + sk * 4. 10:05:30 I'm more worried about the early game balance, really... I think kilobyte might have the right idea with splitting wands into two categories and having the bigger wands be more skill-dependent 10:07:06 something like what you have currently might be decent for fire/cold/draining (and paralysis maybe? I don't know how paralysis power balance is going to be like) 10:07:59 elliptic/kilobyte: if you have a better apportation formula please replace mine, i agree that it's probably not very good :P 10:08:01 whereas flame/frost/magic dart/confuse/slow etc could use a smaller slope (and lower maximum power) 10:08:29 was just an attempt to get the general idea working, mainly 10:08:33 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 10:10:31 marvinpa_: yeah, I might try to tweak it a bit... it just surprised me how hard it was to apport scrolls and rings and light stuff like that very far at all 10:10:51 yeah, it wasn't very well thought-through, sorry :P 10:11:52 no, thanks for getting something working at all... the special-casing for the orb was bothering me too :) 10:12:01 marvinpa: have an opinion about wand/rod power? 10:13:30 hmm, it definitely sounds good to boost evoc's effects on wands 10:13:55 well, rods too, but with those it's harder to tell what the impact would be since mostly i just use rods for cloud spells 10:14:06 where the power isn't a big deal, or bolt of inacc which is crazy powerful anyway 10:15:00 well, if anyone wants to play with the spreadsheet and try to find good formula and numbers, feel free. 10:15:18 I'll add a column to split low and high tier wands too. 10:15:41 low tier cap power at 50, right? 10:16:43 and for high tier, 100 for wands and 120 for rods at sk 27? 10:18:26 120 power rods sounds too high to me... a lot of casters never get power up that high 10:19:08 yeah, when you get up to 100 or so the stepdowns start really hurting 10:19:55 evoc 27 is a lot, but it shouldn't let you be better than most conjurers IMO 10:20:47 ok. 10:20:51 100? 10:21:26 even 100 for wands worries me a little because of how good bolt of fire/cold are 10:21:37 it's definitely cheaper to raise evoc to 27 than to train fire/conj/spellcasting and int and wear enhancers. 10:21:43 wands aren't infinite, but you do get a lot of them 10:22:04 yeah, that's the problem... evoc is just a single skill 10:22:21 and a cheap one (only 80 base cost) 10:22:45 what values would you suggest for power at sk 27? 10:23:38 80, maybe? 10:24:29 (for both high tier wands and rods... low tier wands should be capped somewhere earlier like 50) 10:25:33 and at sk 0? Currently, we have 30 for wands and 5 for rods. 10:28:11 maybe 15 for high tier wands, 25 for low tier wands, and 5 for rods? 10:30:17 also low tier wands should reach the power cap earlier... not sure where exactly, maybe 10 skill? or is that too low, hm 10:33:19 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 10:46:35 updated. low tier wand: 25 + sk * 2 (cap 50 reached at sk 13). High tier wand: 15 + sk * 2 (69 at sk 27). Rods 5 + sk * 3 (86 at sk 27). 10:47:26 high tier wands should have a higher slope... try 15 + sk*3 ? 10:47:35 or 2.5 10:48:09 ok 10:49:14 2.5 looks good (max at 83) 10:49:15 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:52:52 I'm a bit uncertain about whether this is too large a player nerf (high tier wands only break even with the current power at skill 8), but it looks fairly reasonable... maybe see what some other people think :) 10:54:46 sure. I'll gather more feedback from the forum and the wiki. 10:58:15 MarvinPA: how does something like 60*pow/(mass + 150) sound as an apportation formula? 10:58:24 galehar: the forum will be full of whining :) 10:59:16 still need 100 pow to apport the orb full distance, need 20 pow to apport something weightless full distance 11:01:09 it is easier to apport heavy things one square... not sure whether that is good or not 11:02:26 this is completely untested, too, so I'm not sure how it will play... but being unable to apport anything more than 1 or 2 squares early on is not much fun) 11:03:01 let's test it then! 11:03:03 have to go 11:03:03 that sounds like an improvement, yeah 11:03:09 bye 11:03:16 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:14:52 -!- degroves has joined ##crawl-dev 11:15:26 -!- degroves has quit [Client Quit] 11:29:36 by the way, does anyone have any ideas about the best way to fix hell effects and such so that they aren't completely predictable? 11:29:59 since currently a lot of things can only happen every 20 game turns 11:30:15 and you can even see this with show_game_turns 11:34:42 elliptic: I've never been to Hell -- the idea is that they happen like clockwork? 11:35:33 well, there are currently a lot of effects that can only happen when the game turn counter passes a multiple of 20 (200 because it is in tenths) 11:35:39 this is in handle_time 11:35:58 statrot, glow stuff, and so on 11:36:09 and also if you are in hell, a 1/2 chance at a hell effect 11:36:20 gross. 11:36:45 so basically if you have show_game_turns on, you can predict exactly when hell effects (might) occur 11:37:17 We could have independent timers for each effect with an expected time of 20? 11:38:17 yeah, something like that would be good 11:39:21 for some of these effects, it is intended that they can't happen twice in close succession 11:39:30 oh, the other major thing in there is god wrath 11:39:44 elliptic: you can achieve that in a better way 11:39:55 you have a 1/100 chance of suffering a wrath effect, every 20 turns 11:39:56 (roll a random timeout after wrath/hell effect) 11:40:03 that really shouldn't be predictable either 11:40:08 dpeg: yeah 11:40:32 elliptic: What if you have a 1/2000 chance of suffering wrath each turn with a timeout? 11:41:11 yeah, something like that would work 11:41:21 hm, would swapping god wrath to work like that make it easier to have god wraths be independent of each other? 11:41:28 since that's another related problem i guess 11:42:56 might as well fix that at the same time, yeah 11:43:06 * bmh calls "not it" 11:45:04 Would it be better to schedule events rather than having a per-turn chance? 11:45:53 I'll also note while we are on the topic of handle_time that most of the comments in that code dealing with glow are incorrect, so if anyone refactors that code they shouldn't trust the comments... 11:46:50 so to turn away from the nitty gritty for a few minutes: Could we get Baboons as a monster? 11:47:37 Think elephants but with grabbing instead of trampling 11:47:56 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:50:20 Orangutans are frightening too. 12:01:36 nago (L15 SEEE) ERROR: range check error (52 / 52) (D:15) 12:23:07 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 12:42:24 03dolorous * re13c30a19432 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/wpnnoise.txt: Add spacing fixes. 13:29:31 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 13:37:58 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 13:41:06 webtiles is down? 13:42:50 doesn't look down 13:43:12 I can watch games at least 13:43:42 oh, can someone cross-post dpeg's rgrm tourney summary to the wordpress blog? 13:52:33 webtiles keeps giving "The Websocket connection was closed. Reload to try again." for me 13:52:48 me as well 13:53:48 hmm, restarting the browser made that go away 13:54:17 upsy, purge: it's a problem with the connection limit being wrongly reached, it'll be fixed soon 13:54:21 !seen Napkin 13:54:43 on it 13:54:58 ah, hi :) 13:55:03 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:55:20 I last saw Napkin at Mon May 30 13:09:58 2011 UTC (5h 45m 9s ago) saying could clouds from fog be a little more less see through? on ##crawl-dev. 13:55:20 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:07 napkin: oh, by the way, there have been problems on CDO non-webtiles today with it hanging for seconds at a time (for everyone at once)... I don't know whether this is related to the webtiles issue somehow 13:59:35 probably not 14:10:43 Unstable branch on tiles.crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.8.0-178-g5053f60 (32) 14:14:42 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:20:48 Stable branch on tiles.crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.8.0-178-g5053f60 (32) 14:33:04 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:22 -!- unexpected has joined ##crawl-dev 15:00:35 another problem on webtiles: With numlock on, every keypress I make on the numpad is doubled 15:00:43 (it didn't do this before) 15:03:30 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:05:21 yeah, was reported already. I hate javascript keyboard handling... 15:05:56 you can disable numlock or use chrome as a workaround 15:10:16 -!- unexpected has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 15:12:26 -!- bmh has left ##crawl-dev 15:12:33 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 15:19:18 dpeg: What's your favorite way of rotating a vector around another vector in R3? 15:19:45 (ie. I hate Euler Angles and don't want to implement Quaternions just for Crawl) 15:21:36 bmh: don't have one, sorry :) 15:21:54 dpeg: Want to write some code? You are our resident mathematician after all :-D 15:26:38 dpeg: could you repost your tournament summary to the cdo blog? 15:29:13 bmh: sorry, that'll do you no good :) 15:29:21 Wensley: hm, if I recall how 15:29:30 btw, elliptic did most of it :) 15:29:43 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:29:45 -!- Henzell has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:29:45 -!- Zao has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:29:55 I already made a general request to have it reposted, and nobody took me up on it :P 15:29:57 -!- Zao_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:30:28 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 15:31:08 Wensley: new posting? 15:31:50 dpeg: Can we have Baboons or Orangutans as a monster? Like elephants but with grabbing instead of trampling. 15:32:19 dpeg: I think there are two blogs, one for dev stuff and one for news? not really sure :P 15:32:42 bmh: no, we need to clean up some existing monsters before 15:32:58 trampling is good, but there are too many half-finished monsters around 15:32:59 I believe constriction was proposed for anacondas and krakens 15:33:12 for a start, I want constriction for nagas and what Wensley says 15:33:13 dpeg: Can you give me some examples of those that need work? 15:33:17 porcupines are still missing spiny, too :( 15:33:18 like that. 15:33:21 tons of them :) 15:33:26 yeah. Porcupines are boring 15:33:27 MarvinPA: and spiny frogs too? 15:33:31 yeah 15:33:35 and sheep don't catch on fire. 15:33:45 what!??! they don't?! 15:33:51 huh? yes they do :P 15:33:56 it's like the best new feature of 0.8 15:34:05 perhaps I'm doing it wrong 15:34:13 it's only with sticky flame 15:34:21 oh. I was trying it with conjure flame 15:36:03 MarvinPA: I just set a yak and a sheep on fire and didn't notice a difference. 15:36:05 Is this a tiles thing? 15:36:30 ah, nono 15:36:36 it's that sticky flame spreads between sheep 15:36:40 OH! 15:36:47 so if you set one sheep in a pack on fire, the fire will spread to other adjacent sheep 15:37:04 it's totally pointless since they die really easily anyway, but hilarious nevertheless :P 15:37:11 wow. That's awesome 15:37:26 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 15:37:33 FR: Butchering a sheep should generate mutton instead of "sheep chunks" 15:37:52 no 15:37:58 Eronarn: not perma-food. 15:38:05 still no 15:38:17 also, someone go fix up my forest wyrm and trample patches 15:38:31 what's wrong with your trample patch? 15:38:40 not in trunk 15:38:48 I campaigned for it several times :( 15:38:50 oh yeah, they're probably way out of date again :P 15:38:54 bmh: it needs to be reviewed, i'm not a great coder. also that 15:39:34 Eronarn: can you rebase your branch against trunk and then format patch? 15:39:45 FR: DEcaying vegetarian food. 15:39:52 i can easily bring the patch up to date but this is different from getting it ready to go into trunk 15:39:57 From walking mushrooms. 15:40:11 Eronarn: I'm happy to look at it 15:40:23 ok, but people said that the last two times i asked :P 15:40:30 so i'm not going to rush off and go do it right now 15:41:00 If you have it ready before 2300 UTC+1, I promise to look at it tonight. 15:41:07 well, if someone who's not me reviews it and says it won't break everything, i'll happily push it into trunk :P 15:42:04 do swarms still need work to be ready for trunk, or are they just sitting and waiting too? 15:42:31 swarms need work... some of it is conceptual (e.g., where should they show up, how should spells that summon them work) 15:42:36 am glad to work with other people on that 15:42:47 currently the branch won't work because clinging got remade, and i didn't want to hunt down what the new code for it is 15:46:02 for my abyss morphing feature, I need to track the player's 3D position in the abyss, possibly along with an orientation vector -- it's alright if I shove branch specific state into env? 15:46:50 Wensley: posted -- this always takes more time than expected :) 15:47:35 sorry :) 15:47:53 no sweat 15:53:56 -!- Zao_ is now known as Zao 15:54:02 -!- Zao has quit [Changing host] 15:54:02 -!- Zao has joined ##crawl-dev 15:55:05 -!- Twinge has quit [] 15:58:16 Ctrl-F: Stacked Enchant Scrolls not being found (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4077) by battaile 15:58:35 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:00:11 -!- Adeon is now known as nethackfan1821 16:01:52 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 16:02:26 Any thoughts on where should I store wayward branch state? 16:05:54 -!- nethackfan1821 is now known as Adeon 16:33:57 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 16:47:56 -!- OG17 has quit [Quit: OG17] 16:48:57 Eronarn: is your branch with trampling somewhere public? 16:49:18 it's on github, and also posted as a patch on the tracker 16:49:52 what's your name on github? eronarn? 16:50:07 yeah, Crawling Chaos is the repo name 16:50:42 -!- ophanim has joined ##crawl-dev 16:50:46 which branch should I be looking at? 16:57:35 forest wyrms 16:57:40 it includes a forest wyrm as a new trampler monster 16:57:44 which mostly works 16:58:21 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:03:31 ouch, github is slow 17:05:05 Eronarn: can you give me a commit id? All I'm seeing on the branch is your merge on May 6. Is the patch really old? 17:14:54 -!- degroves has joined ##crawl-dev 17:15:01 -!- degroves has left ##crawl-dev 17:20:10 03MarvinPA * rc2ace26fad36 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/descript/spells.txt spl-cast.cc spl-tornado.cc): Remove Tornado's negative spell enhancer, since the damage was reduced 17:20:12 03MarvinPA * rb0f25dcddd6a 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-transloc.cc: Fix orb-run cTele fuzz being biased in one direction, increase it a little 17:20:12 03MarvinPA * r0884fe677ddf 10/crawl-ref/source/zap-data.h: Boost Bolt of Magma's damage a little 17:20:15 03MarvinPA * r32f7e0ca3f90 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Decrease the irresistible portion of damage from BEAM_ICE and BEAM_LAVA 17:20:26 03MarvinPA * r5d0175d6a06b 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-data.h: Make Darkness quieter 17:20:26 03MarvinPA * rc829337833a0 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-transloc.cc: New and improved apportation distance formula (elliptic) 17:20:45 bmh: a commit idea for what particularly? there's several commits that affected trampling behavior 17:20:51 spaced rather widely apart 17:21:21 and yes, it's old - i started working on it like last year i think 17:21:45 That *is* old! 17:23:13 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3393 17:23:15 here's the issue 17:25:43 ok, great 17:30:31 I need to sleep -- I'll do my best to look at it tomorrow 17:30:39 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 17:31:16 -!- degroves has joined ##crawl-dev 17:38:08 -!- Guest85572 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:38:47 -!- Guest85572 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:45:00 -!- degroves has left ##crawl-dev 17:57:01 -!- vimpulse has joined ##crawl-dev 17:59:17 Hi all. Unanswered crosspaste from ##crawl: Wouldn't it be nice if the game warned you when you first noticed a monster which was OOD by, say, 25% or more? 18:00:10 Hot topic! 18:00:17 I believe there are some for, but some against. 18:00:26 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 18:01:07 due: What's the best argument against? 18:05:27 OOD by 25% doesn't mean much 18:05:44 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:06:01 but we have code that evaluate how dangerous a monster is compared to the player 18:06:06 OOD by x levels is what you would want to say, I think 18:06:09 can't you already tell by using ood_interesting? 18:06:16 we use it for Ash's detect monster 18:06:26 as in, wouldn't generate normally until x levels deeper 18:06:42 or do you mean to have the game say "this is an ood" without you having to check the notes screen? 18:06:52 oh right, those notes 18:07:07 nastiest monsters are uniques, and they can't be OOD 18:07:18 MarvinPA: Yes, I don't want to have to check the notes screen for an {ood_interesting} note. 18:07:37 yeah, I think you would get a lot of complaints of the form "the game warned me about this weak monster but not about rupert" 18:07:50 Well 18:07:59 galehar: elliptic: so the game could give the same very-difficult-monster warning for both OODs and uniques. 18:08:01 We could write some client-side lua that hooks into the notes and displays a message on-screen if necessary 18:08:09 Sounds a bit OOC to know what level something belongs on, particularly if you haven't been there yet. 18:08:10 which could optionally be turned on 18:08:23 Zao: not so 18:08:33 Zao: you know just by looking at a monster if it's poison resistant. 18:08:46 yeah, i'm all for showing this information 18:08:53 If we want that, we'd better use Ash's code based on tension. Might not be perfect, but it's more flexible. 18:08:57 it'll make gameplay much more fun for new players 18:09:01 I mean, if it's there, it ought to be something vague about being scary, not bringing in mechanics like "depth" and "preferred depth". 18:09:25 "This monster is out of place!" 18:09:30 Zao: due: :) 18:10:19 Just add a line in description saying that a monster seems dangerous or scary. And an optionable warning. 18:10:38 galehar: I'm fo rhtat. 18:10:51 i think make the warning default on, personally 18:10:55 because it's meant for new players 18:10:56 I'd actually like it if we could do tutorial-esque message blurbs on-screen via Lua. 18:11:04 who won't find it if it's default off 18:11:40 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:12:24 Eronarn: of course, default on. 18:12:45 MarvinPA: good work nerfing storms and icycle! 18:13:14 :) 18:13:33 galehar: why bother letting users disable the second (message-area) warning? Will it be so annoying? :) 18:13:49 also, did you call bolt of magma's 50% damage boost "little"? 18:14:35 vimpulse: tough monsters can be common in some areas. Yes, I believe experience players would be annoyed by it. 18:15:34 vimpulse: Once you become capable of instantly determining, by knowledge and glance, whether or not a monster is OOD, warnings become superfluous and, indeed, frustrating. 18:16:22 !seen dpeg 18:16:23 I last saw dpeg at Mon May 30 21:33:57 2011 UTC (1h 42m 25s ago) quitting with message Quit: zzz. 18:16:36 it's not like we have too many options. More is better! ;) 18:17:16 galehar: well ok, not that little :P 18:17:57 galehar: due: maybe you could send the message to MSGCH_NEWBIE or some such new channel so that people could mute it. 18:18:00 makes me want to play a FE 18:18:03 burn! 18:18:10 heh 18:18:27 lol newbie channel! 18:18:34 why not :) 18:19:52 actually, that's not a bad idea 18:20:01 but having an option to directly turn iut off would also be good 18:23:00 -!- vimpulse has left ##crawl-dev 18:32:01 -!- bhaak has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:32:06 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 18:34:08 03galehar * r6c9be1e101c1 10/crawl-ref/source/itemprop.cc: Check object base_type when cursing it. 18:34:51 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:08 03dolorous * r92b044147a0e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dungeon.cc terrain.cc terrain.h): Simplify dungeon.cc's altar picking to use random_god(); remove random_altar(). 18:54:24 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 19:08:51 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:12:59 -!- Sequell has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:13:46 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 19:46:41 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 19:47:06 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:54:02 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:56:11 03kilobyte * rfbb71f0d0e48 10/crawl-ref/source/database.cc: Fix incomplete database when switching between console and tiles. 19:56:22 03kilobyte * rd2577de73a63 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/wpnnoise.txt: Whitespace fixes. 20:15:17 the first time I try out the new cloud targetting, I find a bug... you can't cast poisonous cloud centered on yourself 20:23:57 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 20:30:35 for some reason cell_see_cell(a, a) is set to return false 20:30:42 that's what is causing this 22:15:50 -!- purge has quit [Quit: .]