00:03:10 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-280-g2da2391 (32) 00:18:12 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-280-g2da2391 00:39:01 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 01:01:41 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 01:25:04 -!- elly has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 01:26:42 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:28:50 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:31:39 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:42:56 moin 01:45:31 2011-05-28T23:50:40 <+kilobyte> it's 4am in his timezone, though 03:02:13 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:23:40 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:13:59 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:24:03 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 04:24:58 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:09:01 -!- ZorbaBeta has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:09:03 -!- ZorbaBeta has joined ##crawl-dev 05:38:01 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:42:27 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 05:42:27 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 05:42:44 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest85572 06:09:56 Dispater staff uses a turn/hp/mp when canceling (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4072) by Ragdoll 06:15:08 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:04:17 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:20:51 -!- Galefury has joined ##crawl-dev 08:46:04 Examining rotting chunks from inventory generates unecessary log message (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4073) by Cubittus 08:47:50 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:48:27 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 09:00:24 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 09:38:55 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:55:18 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 10:06:59 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:12:28 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:19:29 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 10:19:33 -!- Zaba has quit [Changing host] 10:19:33 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 10:46:37 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 10:58:36 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 11:18:45 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:32:42 Remapping abilities using =a does not jump straight to ability list screen, unlike spells or items (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4074) by Cubittus 11:51:29 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 11:51:29 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 11:51:29 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 11:51:46 hello 12:03:09 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 12:09:56 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 12:10:00 hi 12:29:22 moin bmh 12:38:38 Zaba, the more I think about it, the more I think mephitic cloud should be nerfed 12:40:22 hmm.. maybe? You shouldn't talk to me about balance issues, though, because I don't even pretend to have a clue about them. 12:40:28 hell, I've never won :P 12:40:33 I've won exactly once 12:40:51 and I play once in an eternity 12:40:57 I can confuse Hill Giants with Mephitic Cloud 12:41:21 but yeah, it might be overpowered somewhat, for a level 3 spell. 12:41:43 A bigger problem as I see it, is that you can reliably confuse whole groups of monsters 12:41:51 I wouldn't mind hill giants, but it pretty much trivializes any otherwise non-trivial early threat, viz. orc priests and wizards, various early uniques 12:41:58 oh yeah 12:42:07 I can rip apart Dowan and Duvessa with it 12:42:21 it's a no-brainer but with a limited supply 12:42:24 it is widely agreed that mephitic cloud is overpowered, yes 12:42:30 I think I can kill every low level unique with it apart from Gastronok 12:42:35 grinder 12:42:41 menkaure 12:42:43 I hate Grinder. 12:42:48 Menkaure is wussy. 12:42:56 @??menkaure 12:42:57 Menkaure (06M) | Speed: 6 | HD: 3 | Health: 24 | AC/EV: 3/6 | Damage: 25 | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(20), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire, 08holy++ | XP: 121 | Sp: pain (d8), haste, torment symbol. 12:43:05 his torment sounds scarier than it is 12:43:06 he is dangerous when he hastes and torments and hits you for 25 12:43:13 maybe he should be speed 16 12:43:41 I don't think I've ever had a problem with him. Typically I isolate him and set him on fire 12:43:53 (yeah, _that's_ my idea of balance..) 12:43:59 he should at least be faster than speed 10 when hasted, haste nerf hit him pretty hard 12:44:06 yeah, that's true 12:44:14 make him speed 7 at least 12:44:21 @??mummy 12:44:21 mummy (15M) | Speed: 6 | HD: 3 | Health: 15-24 | AC/EV: 3/6 | Damage: 20 | Flags: 07undead, evil | Res: 06magic(20), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire, 08holy++ | XP: 18. 12:44:33 or maybe 8 actually 12:44:38 yeah 12:44:47 @??mummy priest 12:44:47 mummy priest (05M) | Speed: 8 | HD: 10 | Health: 54-77 | AC/EV: 8/7 | Damage: 30 | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1387 | Sp: demon, smiting (7-17), torment symbol, summon undead. 12:44:55 @??guardian mummy 12:44:55 guardian mummy (08M) | Speed: 9 | HD: 7 | Health: 36-55 | AC/EV: 6/9 | Damage: 30 | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(46), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 367. 12:45:05 hmm, i guess it'd be consistent with the scarier mummies 12:45:24 I would nerf Mephitic by not having it reliably hit 9 squares 12:45:25 make him 8 and he will be quite dangerous 12:45:28 which is fine 12:45:39 bmh: yeah, that's one reasonable way of doing it 12:45:40 Guarantee the centre square and make the rest follow some distribution 12:45:52 It stops you from aiming between two monsters to hit them both 12:46:01 maybe MC should be removed altogether? :P 12:46:02 make the rest each have an independent chance which varies with power 12:46:18 doesn't it overlap with evaporate in some pretty obvious way? 12:46:32 (with regard to the effect) 12:46:34 Evap is just MC with an additional minigame 12:46:41 well, evap should be nerfed also 12:46:49 meph with a minigame and miasma 12:46:58 whether MC should be removed because of being too similar to evap is a separate matter really 12:47:04 Evaporate is annoying. 12:47:24 Generally the fact that you're converting corpses into potions doesn't matter 12:47:43 You're a caster, so you probably aren't worshipping Trog, Okie, or anyone else who likes corpse sacrifices 12:48:00 The corpses are all poisonous, contaminated, or mutation causing 12:48:16 makhleb but you don't get gifts from makhleb. okawaru but you don't care about most of his gifts 12:48:36 elliptic, well, in theory, removing something might be better than nerfing it to the point where everybody stops using it 12:48:37 Tm does go makhleb or oka a lot, yeah 12:48:50 zaba: my point is that the same nerf should be done to evap 12:48:50 that doesn't necessarily apply to mephitic cloud, but... 12:49:23 i mostly just use evaporate for steam and miasma. The meph cloud effect is good too early on but I dont really use it as much 12:50:04 evilmike: don't forget poison 12:50:05 evilmike: why steam? 12:50:09 unless you don't do that for some reason 12:50:18 does steam block LOS? 12:50:30 yes 12:50:30 oh yeah, I use poison too in the early game 12:50:31 evap = poisonous cloud for 2 MP 12:50:57 anyway yeah, making both evap and meph depend on power for number of squares affected sounds good 12:51:05 yeah steam clouds block vision. So, you see a centaur pack, evaporate steam at them, retreat a bit 12:51:18 I also think Conjure Flame is overpowered 12:51:37 Any second level spell that can kill a Hydra is broken 12:51:42 it is level 3 12:51:50 still 12:51:55 and the AI for dealing with it does need improvement 12:51:56 any damaging spell can kill a hydra 12:52:13 there was an attempt to improve the cloud AI in 0.8 trunk but it got reverted, I'm not sure what the 0.9 plans are 12:53:10 the 0.8 attempt made it so monsters didn't walk into bad clouds at all, meaning conjure flame prevented anything from approaching, right? 12:53:32 something like that, yeah 12:53:39 I think only intelligent monsters didn't walk into bad clouds at all 12:54:04 Slime Monsters are dumb, but I don't think they're that dumb. 12:54:11 I remember watching people meph monsters to expose them to bad clouds so they would walk into other bad clouds 12:54:23 yep. That's what I do 12:54:38 @§O§ and then apply a little meph 12:54:47 the main problem with conjure flame is that hydras and such will walk straight through them even if they could go diagonally around them 12:54:49 in open areas 12:54:54 unless that did get fixed 12:55:04 it's doable in 0.8 12:55:13 I think we could fix part of the problem if really big monsters pushed little monsters aside 12:56:25 imo a good start would be to make monsters take equally distant paths around flames if there are any, yeah. it would still be possible to abuse it diagonally, at least, though 12:57:15 i.e. place flames diagonally and make monsters walk into them that way, so they have to walk through flames to take the shortest path to the player 12:57:23 they could also take slower paths if they saw them 12:58:18 I thought that there had been a plan to remove resistances and evocations from randart weapons? 12:58:35 resistances? not afaik 12:58:42 some evocations were removed 12:58:49 ok -- my wizard is lugging around a battleaxe because it's +2 int and rC+ 12:58:52 +Map at least 12:58:56 get a buckler 12:59:34 also, a battleaxe does hurt your spell success rates slightly 12:59:43 unless that got removed 12:59:51 oh, i was going to remove that at one point 13:00:03 it seems sort of unnecessary 13:00:10 yeah, that one doesn't really make sense since you are losing a hand regardless 13:00:23 whether it's holding a dagger or a battleaxe 13:00:35 -!- bmh is now known as bmh_away 13:00:50 it would make more sense to have a fixed penalty for using a 2-hander 13:00:54 i dont think there's anythign wrong with having resists on a weapon, although i'm of the opinion that if you are only using a weapon for its resists you are really just making the game harder for yourself 13:01:12 i also think its interesting to get into situations where you fight nikola with a really bad weapon just because it is the only thing you have with rElec 13:01:22 that would work too, yeah 13:01:27 removing resists on weapons would just make things a lot rougher on melee guys 13:01:29 rather than the weird dependency on weapon speed 13:02:07 i don't see a reason to have a penalty at all 13:02:11 using a staff is very wizardly 13:02:25 a staff is a 1-hander effectively 13:02:26 staves aren't 2-handed 13:02:29 and if using a staff shoudln't have a penalty i don't see why a halberd, battleaxe, etc. should 13:02:36 because they use 2 hands? 13:02:39 hybrids already usually take 1handers over 2handers, don't they? 13:02:45 you can hold them in one hand 13:02:52 monqy: yeah, that's why I'm a little hesitant 13:02:57 you aren't swinging them at the time you're casting 13:02:59 evilmike, did you have some questions regarding vaults? 13:03:00 though the good 1-handers have been nerfed 13:03:09 eronarn: how do you know whether you can hold them in one hand 13:03:16 Zaba: oh, there was something I was wondering about serial vaults 13:03:21 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 13:03:26 Well I think different penalties for different 1-handers makes sense, a dagger is lighter and less clumsy than a battle axe. 13:16:31 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 13:16:31 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 13:16:45 if you are good at casting spells, then... you should be good at casting spells 13:16:51 why would spc *not* be a completely obvious choice for spellcasters? fighting is a completely obvious choice for fighters... 13:16:59 this makes just a little sense 13:17:15 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 13:18:04 MarvinPA_: not investing much into spellcasting, but a lot into a few spell schools, should be a reasonable strategy but spellcasting's far too useful to make that appealing 13:18:53 it is appealing if you only are using 1-2 spell schools and never plan to use more 13:18:56 it is a reasonable strategy, works nicely for pure summoners and conjurers and such 13:19:09 this is often the case on heavy armour casters, too 13:19:18 it doesn't work for schools where there's not much advantage in getting high skills anyway 13:19:26 in which case, the problem is probably with that skill itself 13:19:35 raise tloc to 20 or so for cBlink in heavy armour, don't worry about spellcasting 13:20:11 MarvinPA: even then you still want to be raising spc, just not quite as fast as you raise your primary skill (because it's based off of skill levels, plus the way XP cost for skills scales) 13:20:35 marvinpa: yeah, heavy armour acts as a reason why you would want higher skill than you would normally for those skills 13:20:50 right, that seems mostly fine 13:20:58 -!- bhaak has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:21:07 i don't see why it should be viable to be a caster who doesn't want to raise spellcasting skill at all 13:21:18 eronarn: that still qualifies as "not investing much into spellcasting" 13:21:30 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 13:21:46 MarvinPA: raising spellcasting skill should make your spellcasting better, i just don't agree that success/power boosts are the way to do that 13:22:04 success/power is what casting spells is about 13:22:13 there are lots of other variables in casting spells 13:22:21 noise, hunger, MP, slots, range, etc. 13:22:22 what else would spellcasting do... it would make more sense to have it not give you spell slots 13:22:31 03dpeg * r3ad9a37b7a4c 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/wpnnoise.txt: Weapon noise renovated 13:23:09 (duration could be another one, or glow, or etc.) 13:23:22 or miscast severity 13:23:30 if you start varying all of those factors it just makes the system much more complicated 13:23:43 spellcasting skill already affects half of the things i listed 13:26:03 Eronarn: have you mentioned a single benefit we would get from removing Spellcasting's effect on casting spells? 13:29:30 kilobyte: makes specialized casters better / generalist casters worse; gives more room for spellcasting to have other effects since right now it's too good anyways; makes raising spellcasting a more interesting choice; makes the high / low spc races into something potentially more interesting (depending on what spc's final effects are) 13:32:07 03MarvinPA * r8af608b9c593 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Boost Menkaure to speed 8 13:32:17 03MarvinPA * rb93f427612a7 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-cast.cc: Simplify a couple of spellcasting formulae, remove unnecessary factors 13:32:38 afaict you mentioned only three new (not affected by power/success currently) effects for spellcasting, actually 13:32:43 noise, range, and glow 13:33:25 variable range per-spell sounds annoying 13:33:29 MP too :P (not saying it should affect MP, I was just listing the factors I could think of) 13:33:30 noise isn't very interesting usually, and for the really loud spells it would be strange to have spellcasting affect the noise since the noise is due to the effect of the spell 13:33:41 it already does affect MP, unless you meant MP cost of spell 13:33:54 oh, i meant per spell, i forgot it adds MP to your pool 13:34:00 variable range already happens in a couple cases, based on spell power, and it would be annoying too 13:34:16 affecting MP is hard because MP comes in discrete amounts 13:34:45 so you'd have breakpoints where suddenly a spell became a lot better, or alternatively there would be randomization, which would be annoying 13:35:12 and I'm not sure what you meant by glow, unless you just were talking about the few spells that cause effects that glow you 13:36:15 perhaps spellcasting could reduce the time it takes to cast spells 13:36:21 again, i was just listing effects, as i strongly disagree that spellcasting is 'only about success/power' :P 13:37:05 actions taking variable lengths of time also sounds like a bad idea 13:37:05 there are a lot of ways that spellcasting skill could have an effect without simply making your spells have more power 13:37:45 it doesn't work very well for weapons, so i can't see that it'd be much better for spells 13:38:38 -!- bmh_away is now known as bmh 13:38:39 MarvinPA: I agree that it would be bad to have all spells have different casting times, but if spellcasting simply reduced cast times for all spells by some fraction, I don't think it would ever be an issue. I've never been in a situation where I've wanted a spell to take longer to cast. just a thought 13:38:55 monster packs just follow the leader, they don't coordinate movement planning, right? 13:38:59 Wensley: that would amount to a passive haste effect which would be bad 13:39:20 in that case, we could just remove haste and complete the circle 13:39:29 MarvinPA: we don't have it working well for weapons but it's not like other games don't manage to make it work 13:40:38 well anyway i don't think spellcasting particularly needs more variables to be introduced any time soon 13:40:56 working on balancing the existing variables seems like a better idea 13:40:59 eronarn: what I meant was that there are two basic parts to casting a spell: you try to cast the spell (success) and if you succeed, then it has some effect(s) (power) 13:41:13 elliptic: you can define it that way but only by setting aside everything else 13:41:30 so it's not a very useful definition for this discussion 13:41:31 and currently the system ties a lot of stuff into that 13:42:08 MarvinPA: i wouldn't want to add more stuff to it just to add more stuff, it's already too valuable for its XP cost 13:42:12 and it seems better/simpler to have fewer parameters that determine how things work 13:42:21 i'm not talking about adding more stuff, but replacing existing stuff 13:42:27 yes, but that's still creating more variables 13:42:54 elliptic: so you agree that spc affecting power/success is contributing to having too many parameters determining how things work? i'm glad you've come around on this issue 13:42:57 looking forward to seeing a patch for it soon 13:42:58 eronarn: currently spellcasting basically just has two variables: success and power 13:43:08 eronarn: uh, what? 13:43:27 you aren't making much sense there :P 13:43:53 you're proposing adding more variables, and claiming that the problem is there's too many variables? 13:43:54 or something 13:44:36 does everyone agree that spellcasting reducing spell hunger is appropriate, at least? 13:44:57 i'm proposing shifting some variables to another area, and possibly cutting some 13:45:02 this is not a net increase in variables 13:45:18 eronarn: no, you are suggesting adding mysterious other effects to spellcasting 13:45:33 noise and mp and range sound like new variables to me 13:46:03 MarvinPA: but they'd only come with it losing its effects on success and power (and i'm also not tied to it having an effect on slots, which some people don't like) 13:46:14 its effects on success and power aren't a problem 13:46:20 -!- dpeg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:46:31 its effects on success and power are a problem 13:46:36 ... but then success and power would still be spellcasting variables 13:46:40 and you would have added some new variables 13:46:42 you are the only person who thinks so, afaict 13:46:45 so there would be a net increase in variables 13:47:27 ("spellcasting variables" as in "variables important to casting spells", not "variables affected by spellcasting skill" that is) 13:47:29 MarvinPA: if you mean small-s spellcasting, sure, you still have success and power - but they're simpler to determine 13:47:40 only slightly simpler 13:47:44 they're not very complicated to determine now 13:47:52 it isn't like the dependence on spellcasting is very complicated 13:47:53 so basically you'd just have added more variables 13:47:54 ??spell power 13:47:59 which is not really a great thing 13:48:50 spell power[1/5]: (Spellcasting/2 + 2*avg school skill) * INT divided by 10 * (1.5 ^ enhancer count). Now halve the part over 50, halve the part over 100, halve the part over 150, and plain cap at 200. Negative enhancers use 0.5, not 0.66. 13:48:57 MarvinPA: i disagree as long as those variables are interesting (e.g., being able to cast noiseless spells on a stealth character could be fun). though heck, i'd be fine with just cutting and not adding stuff back in - most people would still leave spc on if it were hunger, slots, MP 13:52:42 as we've said, just cutting seems to have a lot more drawbacks than advantages 13:53:00 I love Orb of Destruction -- there's a spell with style 14:13:52 -!- Pedjt has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:14:38 about august's tourney: are we going to have it take the full month? 14:18:38 I would guess it would be two weeks like this one (since that's what people seemed to want after last year's tourney and people have said that they like the length of this tourney) 14:18:50 but I don't know who's running the august tourney 14:19:00 will greensnark be back with us? 14:19:06 hI 14:19:19 kilobyte: yes, three weekends seems better than a full month 14:19:43 elliptic: I am sure he'll be around. 14:20:51 okay, great :) I don't know how many of the changes in this tourney he'll want to adopt... some of them worked better than others, I think, and I have various suggestions for other changes that might be good 14:21:12 elliptic: yes, we should evaluate at some point. A whole lot of good ideas in there :) 14:21:21 kilobyte: I am not completely happy with wpnnoise.txt, but it should be noticeably better than before. Now is a time to think about the damage? 14:21:40 sometime in the next few days I'll post my opinions on the wiki page for the tourney 14:21:46 awesome 14:23:29 elliptic: who got the very last win inß 14:23:36 tourney isn't over yet 14:23:45 !time 14:23:47 blammo :) 14:23:50 Time: May 29, 2011, 07:23:49 PM, UTC. The 2011 0.8 tournament ends in 4 hours, 36 minutes and 10 seconds. 14:24:17 one important change: in announcements, let's say "May 29 24:00" rather than "May 30 0:00" 14:25:13 it's a valid if not obvious feature of the 24h clock -- you can refer to the same instant at midnight in two ways 14:25:15 that probably makes sense for the end date, yeah... though people mainly seem to be confused in the other direction 14:25:36 at least I got confused the other way 14:25:38 I wouldn't mind if the august tourney was four weekends, but I'm a pretty slow player :)) on the other hand, being at all productive during august would be nice 14:25:39 a certain number of people thought the tourney was ending yesterday or the day before, probably so it would be closer to 2 weeks long 14:25:50 elliptic: I want to send a short notice to rgrm. What were the main highlights? I am aware of mikee's streak and your achievements. 14:26:15 well, you should wait for the tourney to finish :) mikee is currently trying a speedrun 14:26:20 elliptic: you mean, americans with their non-monotonic clock? 14:26:37 kilobyte: Singing Sword is not urgent, but give me a nod/nay if my wpnnoise stuff went in the correct direction. 14:26:47 kilobyte: not sure what you mean? 14:26:52 kilobyte: espousing the virtues of monotony, are you? 14:27:24 12:00_am_, 1:00am, 11:00am, 12:00_pm_, 1:00pm, 11:00pm, 12:00am 14:27:49 note that you have four discontinous segments 14:28:00 dpeg_: some other things that you may want to mention: 14:28:27 dpeg_: I'm afraid sorting things in the same commit as actual changes made it hard to see what has changed 14:28:31 theglow is 4/4 and is working on a fifth game 14:28:50 he's about to finish that 5th one, i think he just got his 15th rune 14:29:05 just two people got every pennant: 78291 and mikee 14:30:03 kilobyte: yes, I admit that 14:30:47 how popular was this tournament compared to the last one, and what percentage of players were on webtiles? 14:30:55 http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/per-day.html 14:31:00 sigmund got about 50% more kills than grinder 14:31:12 kilobyte: but I needed two full days to wrap my head around the damn file. As usual with grown stuff, it had to be cut down. 14:31:40 wow, that's a huge jump! was that *all* due to webtiles? 14:31:43 I don't have data on which games were webtiles, but hopefully someone does 14:32:44 this tourney there have 228 wins (so far), of 147 distinct race/class combinations 14:32:49 dpeg_: so far most of the comments on my abyss changes on the tavern have been along the lines of "That sounds cool, but it sounds like a TON of work!" 14:33:06 compare with last tourney, when there were 321 wins, 101 distinct 14:33:33 thats really impressive, especially since the last one was a whole month 14:33:38 also we are currently at 106 players who have won at least one game, compared with 109 players for last year 14:34:46 bmh: yes, I saw :) 14:34:53 well, do we have ANY field that can be used to tell apart webtiles from regular games? 14:35:04 yes, sort of 14:35:25 webtiles and dgl push their output to different files 14:35:32 as in, the summary of games being played 14:35:41 this tourney 1514 players have played at least one game, compared with 1091 players last tourney 14:36:08 kilobyte: not in the logfile afaik 14:36:19 Wensley: so old data is recoverable... would still need a good bit of work, though 14:37:14 right, not sure how we'd get old data, we'd have to start logging 14:37:28 dpeg_: anyway, there are some random facts and statistics... let me know if there is anything else you want to know, and I (or someone else) can probably query it if it doesn't have to do with webtiles :) 14:37:40 in the long run, I'd prefer both game types to use the same binary and produce both tile and console output 14:37:58 I wish eating was interruptible. 14:38:10 I just got mangled by a giant while I was eating a ration. 14:38:26 elliptic: there's a damn lot of interesting data to be mined from the tourney... but let's wait the 3½ hours 14:38:58 yeah 14:39:02 (4.5 hours) 14:39:06 bmh: I wish there'd be a big huge eye-gouging sign "YOU'RE NOT WEARING YOUR SHIELD, YOU IDIOT". 14:39:09 !time 14:39:11 Time: May 29, 2011, 07:39:10 PM, UTC. The 2011 0.8 tournament ends in 4 hours, 20 minutes and 49 seconds. 14:39:28 kilobyte: 'eh? 14:39:37 YASD?\ 14:39:49 bmh: yeah 14:39:50 speaking of actions being iterrupted, is there an option you can set that lets you use the old butchering behaviour? (where you wouldn't be interrupted if a monster comes into view) 14:40:08 kilobyte: I had one of those the other day. I accidentally unequipped my rC+ weapon and got cold bolted 14:41:08 bmh: heh... 15 minutes ago I did the very same thing with a dragon (a branchless game, so very little maxhp) 14:41:11 dpeg_: one thing I didn't mention is that despite more people playing than last tourney, there has been less speedrunning... if I end up winning I'll feel a bit guilty because of how many of my points came from my first two wins in the tourney :/ 14:41:30 kilobyte: Do really big zombies use different AI than the little one? 14:41:37 but one thing I'd suggest for future tourneys is decreasing the speedrun points substantially 14:41:46 I noticed a Zombie Dragon attempting to flank me to avoid my flame clouds 14:41:58 bmh: not sure, I doubt that 14:42:13 zombies do have a different AI: they never avoid clouds 14:42:44 elliptic: noo! my team loves those points 14:42:55 of course, AI is buggier than Bill Gates' dog 14:43:01 (dlk snagged the snake rune at XL 11) 14:43:13 well, the rune points aren't the problem 14:43:31 I just think most of the 200/100/50 prizes should be 100/50 instead or something 14:43:36 at least for these shorter tourneys 14:43:57 aren't there speedrunning awards for the first to win nemelex's choice characters? 14:44:06 I think that might help even it out some 14:44:10 there haven't been in the past 14:44:17 there could be of course 14:44:18 ah, I see 14:44:44 it would be nice if speedrunning was not just relevant at the very beginning and very end of the tournament, I'd love to try it (and fail) 14:44:53 it is relevant all through the tourney! 14:45:03 I just can't compete with spen masters, though :P 14:45:34 at least with ghfe the playing field is evenly terrible (terribly even?) 14:45:38 elliptic: yes, I noted this. Your achievement is impressive, but mikee's streak seemed to be undervalued a little :) 14:45:47 the thing is just that for prizes like "fastest win (turncount)", people aren't usually interested in trying for it... in a month's time, they are more likely to be in the right mood for it once or twice 14:46:03 that's a good point, I keep forgetting about shorter tourneys 14:46:17 dpeg_: yeah, I think I overnerfed the streak points a bit because everyone was afraid of more HaBe SpEn DDNe streaks taking over 14:46:23 yes, speedrunning for Nemelex choices is good 14:46:27 I have ideas for better ways of addressing that, though 14:46:44 Nemelex Choice = rng? 14:46:58 elliptic: the rules are much better now... we can improve them some more for August 14:47:06 random unwon combo, I think 14:47:13 I am sure mikee is not angry about the rules anyway. 14:47:15 nemelex's choice is a little tricky to make work in shorter tourneys, I think, and I'm not sure about speedrunning for it... too easy for that to bias in favor of people in different time zones 14:48:52 dpeg_: really my first two wins weren't that great in absolute terms as speedruns, since I was focusing on getting the first win (and then second allruner), which means being a little careful to avoid splatting 14:48:52 we could just adjust the period at which nemelex's choices are announced, both to fit the same number in a shorter tourney and to give different timezones a more even footing... something like a new combo every 84 hours, or some oddly periodic number 14:49:37 it is just that not very many people have made many attempts to beat those wins 14:49:41 if you do a 16 day tournament you can just have a new one every 4 days 14:49:42 yes, there will be a good solution 14:50:03 wensley: I think I like something like that 14:50:24 evilmike: but the idea was to not favor the people who are awake and fresh in a certain timezone by releasing all the combos at the same time of day 14:50:36 new random combo every (some small amount of time that isn't a multiple of 24 hours), points for the first few people to win it 14:50:50 maybe adjust the rule by saying the game counts as long as you start it within that period 14:51:03 the nemelex's choice stuff was definitely one thing that was lacking in this tourney 14:51:50 Wensley: rotate the race and class every m & n hours where m and n are co-prime ;-) 14:51:59 aaagh :P 14:52:23 (it'll guarantee every combination) 14:53:44 oh, cool, reid is trying a speedrun also now 14:54:00 so is this the new paradigm, then? a tournament in august and a tournament in may, each three weekends long? 14:54:33 people have suggested trying three tourneys a year, one every 4 months 14:54:57 please, no! I already devote enough of my life to crawl :P 14:54:58 Wensley: this one was for the release, I think 14:55:10 but really the fact that this tourney was in may was just caused by the release time for 0.8 combined with when I could put the rules together 14:55:27 there could be more niche tournaments, too 14:55:42 is anybody working on a new sprint map for august? 14:55:45 it isn't clear to me whether may is actually a great time... a certain number of people complained about exams 14:56:38 yeah -- dlk has been playing like he wants to get thrown out of his program 14:56:42 perhaps december/january would be a good time for a short tournament, to capitalize on breaks without being too close to august 14:56:58 ZotDef is in a terrible shape... I wonder what could be done to improve it 14:57:52 oh, what other roguelike tournaments happen throughout the year? wouldn't want to step on any toes 14:58:04 is it just the nethack one? 14:58:08 Wensley: other roguelikes...? ;) 14:58:41 DoomRL can't be easily done over a network because sound plays a large role 14:58:54 dpeg_: update, theglow just won so he is 5/5 this tourney :) 15:01:47 elliptic: yes, will do 15:03:56 Dammit, why are people so awesome at this game? 15:04:38 ghallberg: because we undernerf all the time 15:05:00 :) 15:05:08 I need to get better I guess. 15:06:27 kilobyte: I play DoomRL without sound all the time :-D 15:07:24 dpeg: oh, I forgot clan highlights! 15:08:07 dpeg_: about wpnnoise: you commented that different tensions have different loudness for the Singing Sword. This is untrue, all weapon noises have loudness 25. 15:08:42 Zinja won at least one game with each race (but not each class :/), catonkeyboard has the most wins overall currently (28), and killdudes, fittingly, is the clan who killed the most distinct uniques (69/70 - everyone except Tiamat) 15:08:52 kilobyte: I know... I have been conflating current state with my goal. 15:09:14 25 is usually the max for very loud sounds, like thunderclap, scroll of noise, etc. Only the shield of the gong and firestorm are louder. 15:09:16 (also catonkeyboard has the most combo high scores) 15:11:54 elliptic: things are getting hectic here, I'll just send you my mail. 15:12:21 Perhaps you can have quick look over it. I'll post it tomorrow. Thanks! 15:12:43 sure 15:14:07 dpeg_: can you tell what loudnesses for SS do you want? (Actual screams might be put elsewhere, too) 15:15:21 kilobyte: just nominal for no tension, 15 or so for low tension, full volume for high tension 15:15:44 kilobyte: can we make it that screaming (stuff in CAPS) onlay has full volume? 15:17:01 are there any high tension entries that are not supposed to have full volume? 15:21:18 yes, I'd say so 15:21:25 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:22:58 see you tomorrow 15:23:00 -!- dpeg_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:25:19 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 15:25:55 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:58:17 -!- Pedjt has joined ##crawl-dev 16:00:26 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:09:32 -!- Galefury has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:11:03 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 16:49:16 ping? 17:00:05 hi 17:00:59 can you steer me toward the level builder code used in slime? 17:02:07 03galehar * rd7576805d803 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Fix message when examining rotten meat (#4073). 17:24:41 it looks like it builds a level (haven't traced what happens here) and then does a connectivity fixup (_slime_connectivity_fixup) 17:26:13 i.e. what part of slime level generation do you want, since it seems to be divided like that? 17:27:03 the motivation is to refactor my abyss generator into a generic level builder 17:28:10 figured I should take a look at how it's done apart from the Abyss 17:28:57 have you managed to sort out the 64-bit bugs? 17:29:23 Wensley: yes, but there's still a bug with the initial Abyss 17:29:30 it doesn't seem to be getting randomized properly 17:30:09 I'd also like to take a stab at fixing up some of Worley's code 17:38:00 -!- Guest85572 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:38:28 -!- Guest85572 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:42:18 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 18:00:50 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 18:00:53 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 18:00:53 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 18:01:25 Wensley: I'm trying to simplify the codepath. I've determined that the Abyss where you begin is deterministic. This is troubling. 18:11:16 I found the bug. I wasn't initializing the map_mask properly. 18:32:55 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:36:34 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 18:44:01 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:46:57 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 18:52:53 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 18:53:38 is spectating on webtiles broken? 18:54:43 using latest aurora, I just get the message "The Websocket connection was closed. Reload to try again." every time I try to spectate, and reloading has no effect 18:55:13 can't even load up the main page 18:55:15 I get that too sometimes, it's not to do with spectating. there was a thread on the forums about it 18:55:26 ah okay 18:55:32 some bug where it isn't closing connections or something 18:57:09 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 19:01:23 -!- Rejuxst has joined ##crawl-dev 19:02:43 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:12:36 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 19:18:58 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:43 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:26 -!- Rejuxst has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 20:11:41 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:15:18 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 20:17:57 -!- Galefury has joined ##crawl-dev 20:24:41 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:25:08 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:26:34 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:32:59 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 20:53:07 -!- Galefury has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:07:11 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:10:42 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 21:15:46 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:37:20 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:46:05 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 22:14:28 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:20:44 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:20:50 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 22:22:20 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:54:11 -!- ivan has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:54:11 -!- djinni has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:54:26 -!- ivan has joined ##crawl-dev 22:54:32 -!- ivan has quit [Changing host] 22:54:33 -!- ivan has joined ##crawl-dev 22:54:34 -!- djinni has joined ##crawl-dev 22:59:11 -!- ivan has quit [Client Quit] 22:59:11 -!- djinni has quit [Client Quit] 23:00:15 -!- djinni has joined ##crawl-dev 23:00:15 -!- ivan has joined ##crawl-dev 23:15:41 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:34 -!- OG17 has quit [] 23:28:12 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 23:31:26 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev