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00:23:07 <Rejuxst> hey
00:23:52 <Rejuxst> What is the easiest way to download crawl source and complie it in VS
00:23:56 <Rejuxst> complie*
00:24:01 <Rejuxst> compile*
00:26:44 <Wensley> VS?
00:27:10 <Rejuxst> cisual studios
00:27:13 <Rejuxst> visual studios*
00:27:24 <Rejuxst> typing on a netbook is hard XD
00:27:49 <Wensley> haha, I have no idea how you'd compile crawl in visual studio, but compiling in other ways is pretty easy :P
00:28:18 <Wensley> windows, I presume?
00:28:20 <Rejuxst> ya
00:29:07 <Rejuxst> my big problem is that the dl off the main page doesn't have release binaries of the support libs
00:29:13 <Rejuxst> SDL libpng etc.
00:29:26 <Rejuxst> i tried making in cygwin
00:29:41 <Rejuxst> and NMAKE both threw wierd errors at me
00:29:50 <Rejuxst> weird*
00:29:55 <Wensley> I think msysgit should be everything you need... as far as I remember, it has all the necessary libraries in addition to being a very nice git front end and shell
00:29:56 <Wensley> http://code.google.com/p/msysgit/
00:30:04 <Rejuxst> arg
00:30:06 <Rejuxst> ya i know
00:30:09 <Rejuxst> but i have SVN
00:30:31 <Rejuxst> installed and i don't want to have both git and SVN on my comp it will mess a lot of stuff up for me
00:31:19 <Wensley> would it? I'm not sure there'd be any overlap, msysgit is pretty self-contained
00:31:57 <Wensley> in any case, I'm a pretty noobish hacker, all the guys who would know how to make svn talk to git have either gone to bed or are just waking up now
00:32:51 <Rejuxst> lol rpbly
00:32:58 <Rejuxst> XD im a noob cmd user
00:33:00 <Rejuxst> i hate it
00:33:10 <Rejuxst> i pretty much use GUIs
00:33:39 <Rejuxst> so whenever i check out open source projects I have an annoying time fifuring stuff out
00:33:55 <Rejuxst> lol XD ty nyway
00:34:03 <Rejuxst> i might just scratch SVN
00:34:10 <Rejuxst> I hear git is better
00:34:59 <Kautzman1> If you wanted, Oracle provides VirtualBox for free and you could just run some distro of Linux, or even another copy of Windows on that if you were so inclined
00:35:26 <Kautzman1> Unless you only have a netbook, in which case, a virtual machine may not be the best option :P
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00:38:46 <Rejuxst> i mean
00:38:55 <Rejuxst> I don't know how that would help
00:39:23 <Kautzman> I closed my client by accident;  are you talking about VirtualBox?
00:39:23 <Rejuxst> changing IDEs is not an option
00:39:30 <Rejuxst> ya
00:40:10 <Rejuxst> I will eventually need to switch over to diffrent compilers/IDEs
00:40:19 <Rejuxst> different*
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00:40:30 <Kautzman> If you have a virtual machine running, you could run git on your VM and run SVN on your actual OS without them conflicting.
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00:42:37 <Rejuxst> hey i missed stuff
00:42:40 <Rejuxst> window closed
00:42:46 <Kautzman> If you have a virtual machine running, you could run git on your VM and run SVN on your actual OS without them conflicting.
00:42:57 <Rejuxst> 0.o
00:43:04 <Rejuxst> doesn't git leave folders
00:43:15 <Rejuxst> to manage updates
00:43:20 <Rejuxst> thats the problem
00:43:24 <Kautzman> No idea, but it wouldn't matter.  The VM is completely isolated from the host OS
00:43:28 <Kautzman> Thus the point of a VM :P
00:43:34 <Rejuxst> is when they try verisoning each others versioning folders XD
00:44:05 <Rejuxst> you would still have to dump the git files to a local drive
00:44:21 <Rejuxst> regardless fo the installation of the software
00:44:36 <Rejuxst> and i know SVN leaves a _svn folder in any working copy
00:45:09 <Rejuxst> I'm assuming there's an equivalent "_git"
00:45:24 <Rejuxst> but I'm obviously no expert
00:45:55 <Kautzman> I can't speak on those specifics I only have ever used SVN
00:46:59 <due> um
00:47:08 <due> git and svn are totally independent of each other
00:47:30 <due> even if they do leave folders, you chceck them out in different places
00:47:44 <due> likewise, they are two separate programmes, so they run independently of each other
00:48:03 <due> svn puts a .svn folder in each subdirectory of an svn checkout
00:48:12 <due> git has a single .git folder in the root directory of your repositoriy
00:49:45 <Rejuxst> ok sweet
00:49:48 <Rejuxst> ty
00:50:48 <Rejuxst> i was worried the git rep would version my _svn folder and vica versa making reverting a huge pain
00:50:58 <Rejuxst> visa* ...
00:51:34 <due> why are you storing an svn repository in a git repository?
00:51:37 <due> don't do that.
00:51:41 <Rejuxst> lol im not
00:51:51 <Rejuxst> I have a generae SVN rep
00:51:58 <Rejuxst> general *
00:52:12 <due> and you want to store your crawl checkout in that?
00:52:13 <due> :/
00:52:18 <Rejuxst> a subdirectory of the svn rep will be where i check out the pit rep
00:52:21 <Rejuxst> ya
00:52:23 <Rejuxst> :(
00:52:30 <Rejuxst> i know i know
00:52:33 <Rejuxst> bad idea
00:52:44 <Rejuxst> but thats how i have been versionaing all my files
00:52:45 <due> then why are you doing it?
00:52:49 <Rejuxst> cause im lazy
00:52:55 <due> check out crawl somewhere else
00:53:02 <Rejuxst> also cause that how i do my file back ups
00:53:09 <Rejuxst> sigh
00:53:11 <Rejuxst> k
00:53:12 <due> well, copy your saves there, sure.
00:53:12 <Rejuxst> ty
00:53:33 <Rejuxst> also visual studios can crawl be complied in anyway through that
00:53:40 <due> a) relying on svn for backup is baaaad, b) git does its own versioning; if you're going to hack on crawl, you should store in that.
00:53:57 <due> re: visual studio, there's a series of post son the mailing list with a link to a ticket which has some patches in it for gettin VS working.
00:54:09 <Rejuxst> also i tried compliing using cgywin and it gave me a ton of errors
00:54:25 <due> hm
00:54:29 <Rejuxst> cool
00:54:31 <due> try msys or mingw instead
00:54:32 <Rejuxst> ill look at that
00:54:34 <due> cygwin is a bit ... meh.
00:54:49 <Rejuxst> ya
00:54:52 <Napkin> moin guys
00:55:31 <due> hi Napking!
00:55:37 <Rejuxst> k ty for the help ttyl
00:55:43 <Napkin> hey due! :)
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01:29:30 <Ashenzari> Pacifying a summoner (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4050) by ledtim
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02:22:23 <Rejuxst> im trying to clone the git rep
02:22:27 <Rejuxst> I;m getting this error
02:22:39 <Rejuxst> The server's rsa2 key fingerprint is:
02:22:41 <Rejuxst> ssh-rsa 2048 7e:af:8d:ec:f0:39:5e:ba:52:16:ce:19:fa:d4:b8:7d
02:22:42 <Rejuxst> Connection abandoned.
02:22:44 <Rejuxst> fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedl
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02:28:01 <Wensley> Rejuxst: what command are you using, and what's your git environment?
02:28:30 <Rejuxst> Git-1.7.4-preview20110204.exe first link on install page of msysgit
02:28:42 <Rejuxst> both bash and GUI for windows GIT
02:30:55 <Wensley> and the command you used is:
02:30:57 <Wensley> git clone git://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl.git
02:30:59 <Wensley> ?
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02:31:36 <Rejuxst> git@gitorious.org:crawl/crawl.git
02:31:45 <Rejuxst> and i tried  git://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl.git
02:32:09 <Rejuxst> as in git clone <one of the earlier two>
02:35:41 <Wensley> hmm, weird. try this
02:35:46 <Wensley> ssh gitorious.org
02:36:25 <Rejuxst> ahhh
02:36:38 <Rejuxst> says permission denied (publickey)
02:37:31 <Wensley> it should give you something like
02:37:37 <Wensley> $ ssh gitorious.org
02:37:38 <Wensley> The authenticity of host 'gitorious.org (87.238.52.168)' can't be established.
02:37:40 <Wensley> RSA key fingerprint is 7e:af:8d:ec:f0:39:5e:ba:52:16:ce:19:fa:d4:b8:7d.
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02:37:42 <Wensley> Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)? no
02:37:44 <Wensley> Host key verification failed.
02:37:49 <Rejuxst> o
02:37:52 <Rejuxst> i typed yes
02:38:00 <Wensley> okay, good
02:38:03 <Rejuxst> but other than that the same
02:38:04 <Wensley> now try to clone again
02:38:25 <galehar> hi
02:38:32 <Wensley> good morning, galehar!
02:38:39 <galehar> !seen kilobyte
02:38:39 <Henzell> I last saw kilobyte at Thu May 26 01:44:42 2011 UTC (5h 53m 57s ago) saying Wensley: Tiamat on ##crawl-dev.
02:39:58 <Rejuxst> k its dling now ty
02:40:17 <Rejuxst> I'm new to git where does the clone sit in git
02:40:29 <Rejuxst> i havent giving it a directory to clone a working copy to
02:40:36 <Wensley> the clone sits in the directory you were in when you invoked clone
02:40:42 <Rejuxst> 0.o
02:40:51 <Rejuxst> hmmm
02:40:58 <Wensley> hmm, you've just learned how linux works :P
02:41:03 <Rejuxst> well
02:41:11 <Rejuxst> i figured that what would happen
02:41:17 <Rejuxst> until i tried to cd and dir
02:41:29 <Rejuxst> which it didn't understand
02:41:34 <Wensley> cd works
02:41:40 <Wensley> ls is the equivalent of dir
02:41:43 <Rejuxst> hmm
02:41:55 <Rejuxst> awww crap
02:41:56 <Wensley> you're learning more about linux by the second!
02:42:06 <Rejuxst> ya
02:42:11 <Wensley> in msysgit in particular, you can type cd c: to get to your c drive
02:42:17 <Rejuxst> ic
02:42:25 <Rejuxst> never liked cmd
02:42:28 <Rejuxst> line
02:43:16 <Wensley> if you type cd c: then msysgit will show the following as your prompt:
02:43:18 <Wensley> whateveryournameis@whateveryourcomputernameis /c
02:43:45 <Wensley> from there I'd recommend making a new directory for all your git stuff
02:43:50 <Wensley> mkdir crawl
02:43:52 <Wensley> for example
02:44:53 <Wensley> anyway, were you in your svn directory when you cloned?
02:45:03 <Rejuxst> aww man
02:45:14 <Rejuxst> icloned to my user directory :( fail
02:45:27 <Rejuxst> could be worse
02:46:02 <Wensley> not too bad, it should stick all the files in a crawl-ref folder
02:47:02 <Wensley> so it won't clutter up your user directory, but, on the other hand, git might think that every file in your user directory belongs to the repository if you aren't careful
02:47:12 <Wensley> as long as you aren't doing anything but compiling, you should be fine
02:50:19 <Rejuxst> well :P
02:50:22 <Rejuxst> I'm not
02:50:37 <Rejuxst> I'm going to try opening and compliing and editting in visual studios
02:50:46 <Rejuxst> compiling*
02:51:31 <Wensley> Rejuxst: first, indulge me: navigate into the crawl-ref folder, then to the source, folder, and then type "make". what happens?
02:51:50 <Rejuxst> too late i deleted it :(
02:52:08 <Wensley> gonna have a hard time compiling then :P
02:52:20 <Rejuxst> im redling to a diff folder
02:52:55 <Rejuxst> reading*
02:56:15 <Rejuxst> Im using imnGW can make with that?
02:56:43 <Rejuxst> minGW* can you use make with that its not listed as a command
02:57:01 <Wensley> make should automatically invoke everything you need
02:57:08 <Wensley> if you're missing a package, it will let you know
02:58:02 <Wensley> mingw is what I use, so if you have it then you should be set, msysgit never once gave me any compile error due to missing libraries
02:58:25 <Rejuxst> ok
02:58:25 <Rejuxst> im in the source dir
02:58:32 <Rejuxst> and i ran make in MINGW32
02:58:43 <Rejuxst> and its giving me repeated uname.exe is not working
02:58:44 <Wensley> did you just type "make" into msysgit?
02:58:50 <Rejuxst> ya
02:59:29 <Wensley> what's the exact error?
02:59:29 <Rejuxst> should i not have?
02:59:37 <Wensley> no, that was correct :)
02:59:37 <Rejuxst> its a windows error
02:59:54 <Rejuxst> brings up a window uname
02:59:55 <Wensley> oh, you mean a box pops up?
03:00:04 <Rejuxst> also btw i dont think im running msysgit
03:00:10 <Wensley> haha
03:00:18 <Rejuxst> i think im just running git 1.7
03:00:20 <Rejuxst> cause
03:00:31 <Rejuxst> i just dled the main link
03:00:51 <Rejuxst> its titled MINGW32
03:00:54 <Wensley> ah, I see
03:01:38 <Rejuxst> is it different?
03:02:17 <Wensley> hmm, let me see
03:04:16 <Wensley> hmm, looks like my version was the PortableGit-1.7.3.1-preview
03:04:27 <Rejuxst> hmm
03:04:30 <Rejuxst> should be the same
03:04:33 <Wensley> but yeah, the window title just says MINGW32 etc
03:04:37 <Rejuxst> it wasnt the net installer
03:04:38 <Wensley> that's normal
03:05:09 <Rejuxst> ya its bringing up a windows menu crash report saying uname.exe stopped working
03:06:55 <Wensley> according to google uname.exe has a decent chance of being a virus, not sure if that applies in this case
03:07:37 <Wensley> anyway, so let me get this straight: you navigate to the source folder within the terminal, type make, and then get this error and the program crashes?
03:07:47 <Rejuxst> no
03:07:54 <Rejuxst> the program hangs
03:07:58 <Rejuxst> and i get a seperate window
03:08:05 <Rejuxst> with the crash report
03:08:07 <Rejuxst> if i close the program
03:08:18 <Rejuxst> it repeats
03:08:20 <Rejuxst> teh report
03:08:23 <Rejuxst> the*
03:10:00 <Wensley> type the following command:
03:10:01 <Wensley> ls /bin/make.exe
03:10:50 <Wensley> what comes up?
03:11:27 <Wensley> (you can right-click to paste into the msysgit window)
03:11:29 <Rejuxst> no suchfile/directory
03:11:30 <MarvinPA> i thought it didn't work unless you used the net installer
03:11:36 <Rejuxst> i cant
03:11:41 <Wensley> really?
03:11:44 <Rejuxst> ya
03:11:45 <MarvinPA> NOTE: Do NOT get any of the versions that do not have 'netinstall' in the
03:11:45 <MarvinPA> filename. The 'netinstall' is the only one used by the Crawl team.
03:11:54 <Rejuxst> k
03:11:55 <MarvinPA> from install.txt
03:11:56 <Rejuxst> sigh
03:12:01 <Rejuxst> ya i figured
03:12:06 <Rejuxst> that was the prblm
03:12:07 <Wensley> I was looking for that line, I forgot what file it was in :P
03:12:19 <MarvinPA> yeah, it should probably be mentioned in the git quickstart too
03:12:28 <Wensley> yeah, that's where I was looking
03:12:40 <Rejuxst> it does in some of the 3 diffrent versions of the file ive found
03:13:03 <Rejuxst> the problm is it links to a dl page where the dls include a net and non net installer
03:13:10 <Rejuxst> which is confusing
03:13:40 <Wensley> MarvinPA saves the day!
03:13:50 <Rejuxst> :)
03:14:16 <casmith789> but will he save his team from coming second!
03:14:53 <Wensley> I'm telling rwbarton to start giving out points for solving technical issues
03:15:28 <casmith789> yay
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03:32:15 <dpeg> cheers
03:32:42 <Rejuxst> ok
03:32:44 <Rejuxst> finally
03:32:47 <dpeg> Is mikee = evilmike?
03:32:48 <Rejuxst> dl number three
03:32:56 <evilmike> nope
03:33:12 <evilmike> just a coincidence
03:34:52 <dpeg> evilmike: you're playing in the tournament?
03:35:08 <Ashenzari> Arena always crashes and fails to start. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4051) by Astarotte
03:35:28 <evilmike> yeah
03:36:04 <Rejuxst> o god
03:36:09 <Rejuxst> so much STL :(
03:36:52 <galehar> hi dpeg!
03:37:01 <dpeg> galehar: hi!
03:37:08 <dpeg> galehar: ++++ for HP changes
03:37:46 <dpeg> In the tournament, I played a DSNe of Ash ... was so disappointed when I realised this one does not have all the new stuff :)
03:38:26 <Wensley> dpeg: have you had a chance to try out bmh's new abyss yet? tried it yesterday and it's stunning, I was blown away.
03:40:13 <galehar> only the skill boost is absent from 0.8. Many new features have been integrated.
03:40:27 <galehar> anyway, with the tournament over, you can try it out in 0.9 :)
03:42:01 <evilmike> the tournament has about 3 days to go
03:43:13 <dpeg> Wensley: no, I only looked at his screenshots, sorry.
03:43:35 <dpeg> And I didn't win. But I died with tornado on in Tomb:3! :)
03:47:07 <Rejuxst> @devs: How attached are ou to STL
03:47:10 <Rejuxst> libs in the code
03:47:47 <Rejuxst> and by you i mean the game
03:47:51 <galehar> evilmike: oups :)
03:47:52 <Rejuxst> lol
03:48:15 <galehar> Rejuxst: a lot. We use STL all over the place.
03:48:20 <galehar> why?
03:48:26 <Rejuxst> as i understand it its just
03:48:32 <Rejuxst> strings vectors and slgo
03:48:34 <Rejuxst> algo*
03:48:38 <Rejuxst> right?
03:48:48 <galehar> min, max, map
03:48:49 <Rejuxst> I was the one interested in porting crawl to tablets
03:48:53 <galehar> I used a set once
03:49:01 <Rejuxst> :((((
03:49:06 <galehar> no STL on android?
03:49:10 <Rejuxst> nope
03:49:12 <Rejuxst> no C++ either
03:49:15 <Rejuxst> well sorta
03:49:19 <Rejuxst> its not native
03:49:23 <galehar> damn :(
03:49:36 <Rejuxst> so there a package for partial addaptation which doesn't allow for STL
03:49:58 <Rejuxst> in fact iono if the way crawl is structured right now that its possible
03:50:08 <dpeg> !seen kilobyte
03:50:08 <Henzell> I last saw kilobyte at Thu May 26 01:44:42 2011 UTC (7h 5m 26s ago) saying Wensley: Tiamat on ##crawl-dev.
03:50:13 <dpeg> !seen due
03:50:13 <Henzell> I last saw due at Thu May 26 05:55:31 2011 UTC (2h 54m 41s ago) saying hi Napking! on ##crawl-dev.
03:50:15 <Rejuxst> i doubt ill be able to use stuff like libpng and the other inclue librarys
03:50:25 <Rejuxst> so...
03:50:43 <Rejuxst> also the code is confusing XD
03:50:55 <Rejuxst> I have no idea where to start without a debgging program
03:50:58 <Rejuxst> debugging*
03:51:07 <Rejuxst> so VS here we go
03:51:41 <Rejuxst> anyway while your here I'm about to write the wiki enties
03:51:48 <Rejuxst> where should i put them?
03:54:52 <Zaba> moin
03:55:07 <galehar> let me set up a namespace for it
03:55:11 <Rejuxst> k
03:55:15 <Rejuxst> ty
03:55:47 <dpeg> Zaba: hi!
03:57:55 <Rejuxst> galehar: if you could link me to plz ty
03:58:19 <galehar> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:ports:start
03:58:26 <galehar> there you go
03:58:36 <Rejuxst> sweet thanks
03:59:20 <Rejuxst> When is the best time to sign on here to pick devels brains??
04:00:16 <galehar> anytime. Different people are available at different times.
04:00:20 <Rejuxst> k
04:00:29 <Rejuxst> who are the best ppl to talk about the UI
04:00:33 <Rejuxst> for tiles
04:00:50 <galehar> me :)
04:01:06 <galehar> it used to be jpeg, but she's not around anymore :(
04:02:59 <dpeg> galehar: she is doing fine, btw
04:03:07 <galehar> good
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04:03:25 <galehar> enjoying the corporate life?
04:03:28 <dpeg> not sure she'll be in the mood to code Gozag undercover
04:03:32 <dpeg> galehar: actually yes
04:06:06 <galehar> Let's hope she'll miss us and come back to crawl when the trial period is over.
04:07:41 <dpeg> they all come back :)
04:09:45 <galehar> if you're interested, you can read a discussion about tornado's damage in yesterday's backlog.
04:10:18 <Ashenzari> Incomplete "cause of death" description (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4052) by hxy
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04:15:28 <dpeg> galehar: I am reading the tornado thread in the forum.
04:15:53 <dpeg> galehar: MarvinPA and you should just come up with new numbers. It is also a good idea to nerf the storms at the same time, imo.
04:16:13 <galehar> well, I was posting on the forum and discussing on IRC at the same time.
04:16:22 <galehar> I did come up with numbers.
04:16:34 <galehar> I even made a spreadsheet! (again)
04:17:15 <galehar> in the end, reduce base damage by a third and apply AC/3 (which means 2xAC over the course of 6 turns).
04:17:48 <dpeg> galehar: yes, you are good at number crunching.
04:18:05 * dpeg hands galehar a medal.
04:18:11 <galehar> :)
04:18:37 <dpeg> I always do my numbers on a sheet of paper, which is way inferior.
04:19:21 <galehar> I usually start with pen and paper and move to spreadsheet when I know where I'm going.
04:19:34 <galehar> first, find the good formula. then, find the good numbers.
04:22:10 <dpeg> sounds good.... I am afraid I've stopped to often at the formula
04:27:12 <galehar> lol. The #4052 bug is your morgue file dpeg :)
04:29:22 <dpeg> funny
04:30:40 <due> hi dpeg!
04:31:25 <due> game would be an utter pain without stdlib.
04:31:55 <Rejuxst> how so?
04:39:00 <due> because it is very convenient?
04:39:10 <due> why are we even talking about not using it, though?
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04:42:45 <galehar> because it seems to be a problem for porting to android (I'm not saying it's good enough reason)
04:42:56 <Rejuxst> o wait
04:43:03 <Rejuxst> I didn't mean stdlib
04:43:13 <Rejuxst> well...
04:43:19 <Rejuxst> yes that true
04:43:23 <Rejuxst> but
04:43:28 <Rejuxst> whats in stdlib
04:43:31 <Rejuxst> besides
04:43:37 <Rejuxst> simplified IO
04:43:44 <Rejuxst> for crawl at least
04:43:48 <Rejuxst> do you mean STL?
04:44:08 <galehar> STL means standard library, doesn't it?
04:44:11 <dpeg> due: Hi! Got my mail?
04:44:12 <due> yes
04:44:17 <due> dpeg: no! when was that?
04:44:24 <dpeg> just an hour ago
04:44:30 <dpeg> about the swinging sword
04:44:31 <due> oh
04:44:32 <galehar> Standard Template Library to be more precise
04:44:56 <Rejuxst> ya
04:45:00 <due> dpeg: haven't checked mail yet; i looked into things.
04:45:07 <Rejuxst> STL inclues <string> <vector> etc.
04:45:15 <Rejuxst> STL is not avalible for the andriod
04:45:18 <dpeg> due: ideally, we could talk to kilobyte at the same time
04:45:23 <Rejuxst> while there are options for STL
04:45:29 <due> Rejuxst: can you press enter less often? it's a bit difficult to follow a conversattion when there are huge blocks of short lines
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04:45:45 <due> dpeg: okay, perhaps tomorrow/over the weekend?
04:45:52 <Rejuxst> due: whoops sorry will do
04:46:00 <due> dpeg: will check mail later, just having dinner + watching a movie :)
04:46:17 <due> on holiday next month... going to see Tutankhamun's tomb (it's on tour in australia at the moment)! :D
04:46:29 <due> so I'm practicing my heiroglyphs and middle egyptian.
04:46:42 <galehar> I think I remember kilobyte saying crawl compile on android. Console was working and there was only a problem with opengl for tiles. So either he found a way around, or I misremember.
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04:47:04 <Rejuxst> hmmm
04:47:20 <Rejuxst> I haven't tried yet I've just been looking at it
04:47:22 <galehar> I'll give it a try
04:47:43 <due> I was unaware that Android platform didn't have stdlib available for it -- at least not when using NDK
04:48:59 <Rejuxst> I have to try it first I haven't used much of NDK. it might have stdlib, but as I understand it there was no support for STL. I could be wrong and/or there is probably a modified version with STL support
04:49:46 <Rejuxst> I'm just trying to get tiles into a debugging capable program at the moment so I can tell how the UI works at all.
04:50:26 <dpeg> due: have fun. I'll try to catch kilobyte should he reappear here. Apart from that, a reply mail with your ideas would be cool. I believe the singing sword deserves some love.
04:51:18 <due> dpeg: sure!
04:52:20 <due> Rejuxst: galehar would understnand how the UI works better than i would
04:53:17 <Rejuxst> Ya he said him and jpeg were the go to people. We'll see I just started I spent the last three hours figuring out and compiling with git (VS and tortosieSVN user)
04:54:00 <due> git clone git://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl.git && cd crawl/source && make didn't work? ;)
04:54:07 <Rejuxst> it did
04:54:12 <due> there's also a "how-to" in the docs  directory
04:54:47 <galehar> Rejuxst: for debugging, you can use gdb or eclipse. Someone also made a MSVC support.
04:54:50 <Rejuxst> but I had installed the wrong vesion of git and some how managed to version the git program with SVN cause it was on periodic backups was a huge mess
04:55:09 <due> yaay
04:55:21 <Rejuxst> Ya I saw that I'm going to stick with MSVC its easier for me to follow whats going on in that
04:55:32 <due> galehar: on that note, cmake seems a misnomer, as on unix systems it just uses plain make -- apparently?
04:55:35 <due> i find that confusing.
04:56:21 <galehar> I don't think so. I've used cmake under unix and it was different.
04:56:31 <Rejuxst> Finished creating a bare-bone wiki entry add anything you know/ can think of if you want: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:ports:start
04:56:41 <galehar> it's like ./configure and make in one command
04:58:24 <galehar> Rejuxst: I still think implementing the touchscreen interface as an overlay is a terrible idea.
04:58:42 <Rejuxst> Why?
04:59:02 <galehar> Because it will be much harder to do and buggy
04:59:16 <Rejuxst> What would you suggest instead
04:59:24 <galehar> It should be treated like mouse events
04:59:38 <Rejuxst> ya thats what i meant
04:59:42 <galehar> with some adjustments for special gestures
04:59:55 <Rejuxst> O wait I see what you mean
05:00:27 <galehar> By the way, where are you from? Your english is a bit hard to understand.
05:00:53 <Rejuxst> so your saying that a mouse version of tile should have access to all the available commands and touches are modified mouse clicks
05:01:07 <Rejuxst> :( really? Northern California
05:01:56 <galehar> that must be the accent then :)
05:02:00 <Rejuxst> Do you mean in the wiki cause my writingin general is really colloquial (read bad).
05:02:19 <Rejuxst> writing* also my typing -__-
05:03:36 * dpeg reckons that Rejuxst is young in years. Unlike paternal figures like galehar or me, whose beards touch the ground -- when standing!
05:04:04 <Rejuxst> :) can't drink
05:04:23 <dpeg> Younger than two???
05:04:48 <Rejuxst> :P I can't legally improve my BAC XOM disapproves....
05:06:19 * galehar leaves for his lunch break.
05:06:25 <dpeg> later
05:06:49 <Rejuxst> !see kilobyte
05:07:12 <Rejuxst> !seen kilobyte
05:07:13 <Henzell> I last saw kilobyte at Thu May 26 01:44:42 2011 UTC (8h 22m 30s ago) saying Wensley: Tiamat on ##crawl-dev.
05:07:27 <due> dpeg: had some general ideas on how to improve the singing sword, but outside of tweaks to speech, my best idea so far was to have a lava-orc-esque damage field of "sound".
05:07:43 <due> (based on your idea of having the sword doing sound-based damaged)
05:11:12 <dpeg> due: never touched lava orcs, but I think we should try to make the sound damage meaningful (not just flavour). This is also why I did not suggest to change the base type of the sword. I'd rather go for lower damage against the main target and more sound damage than vice versa.
05:12:50 <due> oh of course
05:12:54 <dpeg> And it's why I'd start generously: smiting damage to anyone :)
05:13:00 <due> i was thinkking sonic booms
05:13:03 <due> yes
05:13:18 <due> explosion-based cloud spell, almost
05:13:20 <dpeg> What do you think of "I WAS FORGED TO MURDER THE WORLD"? I'd like my sword saying that.
05:14:43 <due> i still haven't checked my email yet
05:14:45 <due> but that does sond fun :)
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05:46:35 <kilobyte> galehar: n900 not android.  That's a huge difference -- n900 is close to regular Debian while android is not even close to a POSIX system.
05:47:12 <Rejuxst> So you weren't able to compile crawl for andriod?
05:47:27 <Rejuxst> android*
05:48:58 <kilobyte> galehar: about your proposed changes to tornado: a big fat no from me.  You're trying to balance it as a single-school spell, which is unworkable without turning it into a niche used at most just for show.  Adjusting the damage and other properties is needed, of course, but not without fixing the school first.
05:49:27 <kilobyte> Rejuxst: no, I have never used anything related to it
05:51:11 <kilobyte> galehar: the negative enhancer was a stop-gap added to make 1-school viable.  Still, being able to use Tornado _and_ Firestorm breaks a good part of balance for characters with that many skills, so something of this kind is needed.
05:52:02 <kilobyte> like, rotating all beams
06:01:02 <kilobyte> Rejuxst: dropping STL is not really an option.  Technically, dropping STL itself would be relatively easy as the templates can be quite easily reimplemented, but I see that what you mean is dropping C++.
06:01:13 <Rejuxst> no
06:01:14 <kilobyte> that'd be rewriting a huge code base into a different language
06:01:42 <Rejuxst> I mean dropping STL and replacing with torn down replacments for the needed uses
06:02:27 <kilobyte> I kind of can't see how it can lack STL and yet have a decent enough coverage of the rest of C++
06:02:39 <kilobyte> since this is a part that is easy to port to a new platform
06:03:23 <kilobyte> nothing arch-dependent, just a bunch of (complex) templates
06:03:30 <Rejuxst> The android NDK apparently doesn't support the STL libraries because they are huge and memory gluts
06:03:49 <Zaba> umm
06:03:58 <kilobyte> uhm, Crawl _is_ huge
06:04:02 <Zaba> reinventing that many wheels just for the sake of a single port sounds unreasonable
06:04:10 <Zaba> actually, it sounds ludicurous
06:04:14 <Rejuxst> Ya
06:04:42 <Zaba> might as well rewrite crawl from scratch
06:05:00 <kilobyte> STL is huge as in "tens of kilobytes of wasted space!"...
06:05:11 <Zaba> you have that many clones?
06:05:22 <kilobyte> :p
06:05:47 <Rejuxst> Thats just how the NDK works and the mods for it seem unessecary just to support STL if crawl doesn't use it much
06:05:53 <Zaba> (a world domination masterplan, I'm guessing)
06:06:37 <Rejuxst> It wasn't a huge thing just wanted to check. There are much bigger hurdles to overcome to port. We'll see
06:08:13 <Zaba> you are underestimating the importance of stl
06:09:44 <kilobyte> does Android's C++ have at least such basics as string?
06:09:51 <Rejuxst> How so? Its a simple to use template based library that simplifies programs.
06:10:00 <Rejuxst> If it doesn't have STL it shouldn't
06:10:10 <Rejuxst> I mean andriod by default doesn't have C/C++
06:10:20 <Rejuxst> its the NDK library that allows calling C++ functions
06:11:23 <kilobyte> without string, sorry, no dice.  It's used 7325 times in Crawl's code, not exactly something you can possibly replace.
06:11:46 <Rejuxst> Its looking like porting DCSS will require removing the graphical related code and replacing with java API calls
06:11:59 <Rejuxst> There are dumps of string
06:12:28 <Rejuxst> I can just #include a string.c/string.h file
06:12:30 <kilobyte> std::map<> would be a matter of day's coding
06:13:06 <Zaba> what's good in a port that'll be impossible to marge or that'll make the code horrific for non-borked platforms?
06:13:11 <kilobyte> std::vector<> is also heavily used, and so on
06:13:41 <Rejuxst> nothing
06:14:17 <Rejuxst> I am hoping I can replace a few files, but crawl is scattered so I need to run it and see.
06:14:44 <kilobyte> actually, we never rely on std::string being a template so it is in theory replaceable but still a ton of work
06:16:17 <Rejuxst> You guys are making it sound overly complicated. Its hard to replace alot of different parts of STL but there are string.c implementations I can use to replace them I just wanted to know whats what
06:16:46 <Rejuxst> I heard I would just need to replace vector/string/algo/maps/set
06:17:00 <kilobyte> string is fairly contained, yeah... map is not.
06:17:07 <kilobyte> "just"
06:17:10 <Rejuxst> that was the problem
06:17:19 <Zaba> why don't you copy an existing implementation, anyway
06:18:02 <Rejuxst> implementation of what? I am saying I am going to try to copy an existing implementation of STL
06:18:36 <Rejuxst> its just not supported directly in the NDK
06:18:36 <Zaba> ah
06:18:58 <Zaba> still, that sounds more like a problem with ndk rather than crawl to me
06:19:33 <kilobyte> it's pretty much a part of the language so you can say that this NDK doesn't fully support C++
06:19:42 <Rejuxst> Haha ya it is. But if I modify crawl its a permanent solution to the port problem while having no effect on crawl
06:19:52 <Rejuxst> No it doesn't
06:20:20 <due> it has an affect: it means we can't use other parts of the standard library without breaking compatibility.
06:20:33 <dpeg> just back
06:21:27 <Rejuxst> True.... Sigh I guess would just have to #include all of STL or create a STL directory
06:21:48 <Zaba> don't #include, set compiler flags that change where it's looking for <> headers
06:21:53 <kilobyte> purging streams would be a good idea, I think
06:22:00 <Zaba> kilobyte, why?
06:22:25 <kilobyte> replacing strings is neutral: no big cost
06:23:03 <kilobyte> Zaba: they can't do anything string already provides and have minor problems on Windows
06:23:21 <kilobyte> I did remove most (all) problematic uses already though
06:24:19 <kilobyte> heh... I see all remaining streams are string streams
06:24:25 <Rejuxst> Do any of you know if the MSVC cMake support was ever commited to trunk
06:25:29 <kilobyte> Rejuxst: no, and I see it would be a bad idea, although I have not yet managed to come up with anything else
06:26:18 <kilobyte> supporting MSVC is not a problem: patches that do that are benign
06:26:50 <kilobyte> the only problem I spotted was using float improperly, and that's trivially fixable by using double
06:27:33 <Rejuxst> I'm trying to find where the files discussed in the mailing list that were created for MSVC support cause cmake isn't working for me
06:28:15 <kilobyte> ie, gcc will scream at you that you "lose precision" by bad casts (and is right even though it matters little)
06:30:08 <kilobyte> cmake's benefits: out of tree compilation, neutrals: generation of MSVC projects, downsides: an additional dependency, no way to do compile checks
06:30:43 <kilobyte> in short, it is a poor man's automake with added support for MSVC projects
06:30:48 <Rejuxst> Ya its a pain I know
06:31:16 <Rejuxst> but I'm attached to debugging in MSVC :( never debugged in anyother IDE
06:31:26 <Rejuxst> at least for C/c++
06:31:45 <kilobyte> the thing is, using an automake equivalent is a good idea but doesn't solve any urgent problems -- what is urgently needed is an autoconf counterpart
06:32:18 <kilobyte> "urgent" especially since I direly miss cross compilation
06:32:54 <Zaba> cross-compilation is a pain even with autoconf, if you compare it to how it's done on, say, plan 9 :P
06:33:17 <kilobyte> you can't really cross-compile without compile checks, and cmake doesn't support those or even make them vaguely doable
06:34:14 <kilobyte> Zaba: I'm not saying "we need autoconf" but "something autoconf-like".  Heck, all that's really needed could be done in a couple pages of perl or shell.
06:34:56 <Rejuxst> what do you guys use to debug? I might just download something and go with it caus ethis is a pain and has taken 5 hours
06:34:58 <Zaba> I really have nothing against a short 'configure' shell script, either.  Biggest flaw of autoconf is implementation and that the generated files are so largely redundant.
06:35:04 <Zaba> Rejuxst, gdb
06:35:25 <kilobyte> questions like "does #include <sqlite.h> work?"
06:35:35 <Zaba> ...largely redundant, slow, and waste a lot of precious time that could be spent doing something useful.
06:36:03 <kilobyte> Rejuxst: would using cl be good enough for you?
06:36:17 <Rejuxst> cl?
06:36:30 <kilobyte> Rejuxst: the current makefile could be whipped into shape enough to use cccl, a sane version could even use cl directly
06:36:34 <kilobyte> Rejuxst: MSVC's compiler
06:38:34 <kilobyte> Zaba: I'm not sure if the shell part of configure is causing the slowdown.  It contains megabytes of intentionally dumbed down code with no functions to pander to '70s shells, but I suspect most of the time is used actually running the compiler.
06:38:50 <Rejuxst> ya
06:39:06 <kilobyte> Zaba: of course, many of the checks are useless for 30 years...
06:39:52 <kilobyte> cccl is a wrapper that allows running cl using gcc-like syntax
06:41:17 <kilobyte> not sure how debugging it using MSVC's IDE would then work, though
06:41:34 <Rejuxst> ya thats what I was trying to figure out XD
06:42:28 <Rejuxst> I mean I could care less about how I compile cuase I doubt I will be able to stick with what is beign used at the moment
06:42:32 <Rejuxst> cause*
06:43:07 <Rejuxst> I just don't want to have to flood this board every day with idiotic questions about the code
06:43:57 <kilobyte> you have not yet asked a single idiotic question
06:44:10 <Rejuxst> I count several but thanks ;)
06:44:31 <Zaba> hm.. hrm.
06:44:56 <Rejuxst> I don't even know where the tiles version code initiates main.cc for tiles or crawl?
06:45:19 <Zaba> gdb is great, especially disassemble /m
06:45:31 <Rejuxst> this has alot to do with not being experienced with makefile code
06:46:23 <kilobyte> Zaba: other tools might be able to point out bugs we wouldn't otherwise easily found
06:48:09 <kilobyte> dpeg: about the Singing Sword: changing the messages depending on tension is a great idea, and easily codeable (not including the effort coming up with good messages)
06:48:29 <dpeg> kilobyte: hey, we have some decent messages already :)
06:48:43 <dpeg> kilobyte: but what do you think about the speech/noise doing damagE?
06:48:59 <kilobyte> the messages would need to be mostly sorted, yeah
06:49:20 <kilobyte> smiting people doesn't sound like something a sword that sings would do...
06:50:30 <Rejuxst> kilobyte: reduce dmage based on distance/number of objects traveled through
06:52:22 <dpeg> kilobyte: sound waves!
06:54:24 <kilobyte> that'd be screaming or distortion
06:54:51 <dpeg> It is only singing when it's cosy. Else it is screaming :)
06:55:23 <dpeg> However, just an idea. I believe whatever new the Singing Sword does, it should be gameplay relevant. Since it is already speaking/singing/making noises, we should use that, imo.
06:55:26 <kilobyte> well, the press labels current pop "artists" as "singers"...
06:55:40 <dpeg> wrong press!
06:55:59 <dpeg> I am sure a trained opera singer can cause serious damage with her voice. Unamplified.
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07:04:12 <Ashenzari> Item exists outside of map? (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4053) by cesium
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07:14:00 <kilobyte> dpeg: how do you want to have speech frequency done?
07:14:27 <kilobyte> currently it is: every turn (no matter how long), 5% of speaking irrelevant of tension
07:15:26 <kilobyte> the code doesn't handle the Singing Sword specially -- you may or may not want to affect noisy randarts as well
07:15:57 <dpeg> kilobyte: ideally, we'd be able to use tension qualifiers in the speech file.
07:16:30 <kilobyte> yeah, this is quite obvious... but doesn't give an easy way to alter the chance
07:16:35 <dpeg> But even so, there will be additional code necessary, because we want the sword to do something (I am open for proposals about what it should do, if you dislike general damage to everyone).
07:16:44 <kilobyte> solutions: 1. done in the code, 2. a magic null value
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07:17:58 <kilobyte> I don't dislike general damage, just the lack of thematic connection (singing vs loud shrieks), but since I have no better ideas, please go ahead.
07:19:59 <kilobyte> also: spear of the Botono and Elemental Staff have the "noisy" flag but no speech defined
07:21:54 <Rejuxst> how do you make crawl for debug and then debug using gdb
07:24:04 <Zaba> make debug; gdb ./crawl
07:25:48 <kilobyte> actually all builds have debug info, "make debug" just disables optimization (which often hides variables and thus makes debugging harder) and makes Crawl spam MSGCH_DIAGNOSTICS messages
07:26:08 <dpeg> kilobyte: in my (re)definition of the SS's flavour, it'd be merrily singing at no (or perhaps low) tension, but turn into a insanely shrieking amok-sword at high tension.
07:26:32 <gustaf_arg> dpeg: That actually sounds fun, and flavourfull.
07:26:47 <kilobyte> dpeg: oh, "redefinition of the flavour" makes sense.  My problems were with the current theme.
07:27:24 <Rejuxst> can i make debug TILES=y to make debug tiles?
07:27:28 <gustaf_arg> You know what eould be awesome?
07:27:33 -!- gustaf_arg is now known as ghallberg
07:27:45 <dpeg> ghallberg: hello Gustaf :)
07:27:50 <ghallberg> dpeg: XD
07:28:20 <dpeg> kilobyte: yes, I tried to indicate that in the mail. Currently, there is no flavour to speak of, and I like the transition of a calm, sentient being into a lunatic killer and backwards. "There's a Singing Sword in everyone of us!"
07:28:40 <ghallberg> When the tension level reaches a threshold, the Singin Sword changes name to the Shrieking(Screaming?)  Sword.
07:29:50 <ghallberg> I really hope I have time to do some crawl-coding next week :)
07:29:57 <dpeg> yay
07:30:09 <ghallberg> Final exam of the semester tomorrow.
07:30:16 <ghallberg> Silly Automata >.<
07:30:48 <kilobyte> dpeg: easily doable
07:30:48 <Rejuxst> still in school 0.o
07:31:07 <ghallberg> Rejuxst: Hmm, yeah?
07:31:12 <dpeg> kilobyte: cool. Shall we make a plan?
07:31:33 <ghallberg> dpeg: kilobyte: GO! :)
07:31:36 <Rejuxst> as in not on vacation yet suprised by that is all.
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07:31:46 <kilobyte> for the db file: is no_tension/low_tension/high_tension enough?
07:31:50 <Cryp71c> Mornin
07:31:52 <dpeg> I can sort the speech lines into heaps for different tension levels. There might be some which fit more than one tension level.
07:31:56 <dpeg> Cryp71c: hi!
07:32:03 <dpeg> kilobyte: yes
07:32:14 * kilobyte meows at Cryp71c.
07:32:43 <kilobyte> and what tension is when it gets "high"?
07:32:50 <ghallberg> hey Cryp71c, we're making big changes for small gains :P
07:32:51 <dpeg> speech frequency and volume increases with the tension level
07:33:25 <dpeg> kilobyte: that's a good question, we'll have to playtest
07:33:43 <Cryp71c> ghallberg, lol, what changes? (since kilo and dpeg are in the heat of discussion, it seems)
07:34:00 <dpeg> repairing another fixedart
07:34:03 <ghallberg> Cryp71c: Making the singing sword deal sound damage at high tension levels.
07:34:11 <Cryp71c> sound damage?
07:34:45 <dpeg> as opposed to video damage
07:34:56 <ghallberg> Cryp71c: Ok, sonic damage? flavor damage :P
07:35:40 <Cryp71c> so...implementing a new damage type and tying it into tension for bonus damage as...what, a brand?
07:35:44 <Cryp71c> or just as a special case
07:36:08 <dpeg> special case
07:36:24 <Cryp71c> ee...hrm, well...ok.
07:36:30 <due> no
07:36:36 <dpeg> no?
07:36:46 <due> i don't think a new damage type is a good idea
07:36:55 <due> just make it standard damage and vary the damage dealt initially
07:37:18 <Cryp71c> BTW if someone can spec my game, I'm getting very wierdly formatted messages when I rest and sometimes when I stand over corpses.
07:37:20 <dpeg> ah, I see -- I don't care as long as we get damage to everyone
07:37:43 <due> :)
07:37:51 <ghallberg> Yeah, sorry if I misrepresented your intension dpeg and kilobyte. I don't think you discussed a new damage type or anything.
07:37:58 <ghallberg> I was just being flavorfull :D
07:38:21 <ghallberg> Oh well, off to kindergarten. Then it's time to fail the exam!
07:39:18 <dpeg> better that than to fail at the kindergarten
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07:42:37 <kilobyte> Cryp71c: where's the game?
07:43:04 <Cryp71c> kilobyte, it was on cao, but was a result of me having slightly resized my terminal after having already connected to CAO, then sizing it back.
07:43:18 <Cryp71c> thanks though
07:43:55 <kilobyte> I checked webtiles and CDO :p
07:43:59 <Cryp71c> :)
07:44:10 <Cryp71c> I havn't messed with webtiles yet, has it gained some stability / popularity?
07:44:48 <kilobyte> popularity yes, stability no
07:45:00 <Cryp71c> hehe
07:47:04 <dpeg> I believe the spike in http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/per-day.html comes from webtiles.
07:49:44 <elliptic> surely the tourney contributes also
07:50:20 <dpeg> yes, of course, but I think webtiles goes well with the SA folks
07:51:52 <MarvinPA> well, a lot of people who would otherwise just play local tiles are probably playing webtiles so it counts for the tourney :P
07:53:16 <Zaba> I wonder how many people who've used to play tiles offline have switched to webtiles
07:55:37 <dpeg> Zaba: this we will never know
07:55:40 <kilobyte> edlothiol: changes like making tile info always built, even in console versions, would make merging of your changes harder, right?  Did you mess with the build system?
07:56:06 <Zaba> I mean, it's basically an implementation of the nettiles thing and that's apparently been desired by many
07:56:07 <kilobyte> edlothiol: it'd be nice to finally fix the bugs when loading a game in console and then tiles loses all tile flavour
07:56:41 <MarvinPA> personally i'd guess that most webtiles players swapped from offline tiles, rather than swapping from online console, if that's what you mean?
07:57:32 <kilobyte> Zaba: and it actually works on all systems that can run a browser with websockets (and possibly all semi-modern browsers), without causing 3D driver problems
07:57:44 <kilobyte> MarvinPA: I'd say so
07:57:51 <Zaba> I should try it on my pIII laptop
07:58:36 <kilobyte> MarvinPA: tiles have more appeal for a casual player, but it is far easier to distinguish things at a glance in console
07:58:38 <Zaba> (which has no graphics acceleration whatsoever, for what it's worth)
07:58:49 <Zaba> yeah, I find tiles very distracting
07:59:58 <MarvinPA> i'd love to have the offline tiles interface but with ascii characters instead of the tileset :P
08:00:10 <kilobyte> Zaba: like, this machine at work with a weak P4-era Celeron has a Radeon card that hard crashes if I try to run tiles.  No matter if natively or in a Windows VM with VirtualBox's acceleration passthrough.
08:00:29 <Zaba> what radeon card exactly?
08:01:00 <kilobyte> ATI Technologies Inc RV280 [Radeon 9200 SE]
08:02:08 <kilobyte> judging from bug reports, a crapload of cards make tiles either very slow or have display corruption -- sometimes small sometimes unplayable
08:02:51 <Zaba> do you use the 'radeon' driver with it?
08:02:54 <kilobyte> all with performance humbled by 1990 era tiley games
08:03:17 <kilobyte> Zaba: yes
08:03:31 <Zaba> (not that there is an alternative)
08:04:48 <Zaba> let me try tiles on this other laptop of mine (with a radeon hd 6310, using fglrx)
08:05:04 <edlothiol> kilobyte: I added a few things to the build system to generate javascript tile info and such, but not too much
08:05:21 <edlothiol> I think it wouldn't make merging much harder
08:06:21 <Zaba> kilobyte, works fine (no lag or crashing, at least)
08:06:21 <edlothiol> the tile picking / tile flavour code is almost untouched by webtiles
08:06:36 <kilobyte> Zaba: webtiles or tiles?
08:06:44 <Zaba> both :P
08:07:25 <kilobyte> on n900 with Fennec 4 I get a black screen, but I guess that might be due to privoxy (no AdBlock for Fennec :( )
08:07:39 <Zaba> but I haven't tested local tiles before now
08:08:30 <Zaba> (surpring how they work just fine with _fglrx_, which everybody knows is the worst video driver for X in existence)
08:09:17 <kilobyte> edlothiol: there are no references to hosts other than tiles.crawl.develz.org, right?
08:09:47 <galehar> webtiles spectacting work under android with Opera Mobile. No input though.
08:09:48 <kilobyte> (I mean, by IP or what not)
08:10:05 <edlothiol> I'm not sure what you mean by that... even tiles.crawl.develz.org is not mentioned anywhere in the server
08:11:37 <kilobyte> edlothiol: I mean, how does the javascript refer to the server?  (I don't even know if websockets support relative links)
08:12:45 <edlothiol> ah, the server extracts the hostname used from the request, puts together the correct wss address and inserts that into the page template
08:13:28 <edlothiol> as far as I know, they don't support relative links
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08:14:47 <kilobyte> still black screen, but this might be because of a criminally slow GPRS link (the phone company sucks like a galaxy-sized black hole, I forgot the USB cable and there's no wifi at work)
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08:15:22 <edlothiol> so if you access the webtiles page via e.g. localhost:8080, the page will contain a small javascript line setting socket_server to "wss://localhost:8080"
08:16:50 <Nexos> Weird: type as search a "<<runed||glowi||mail||long blade||shield>>&&!!<<maces||staves||axes>>", move backward until the cursor is on the (m)ail, then type Backspace => long becomes longg then longgg... Known bug?
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08:18:30 <dpeg> Nexos seems pretty obscure, never heard of this
08:19:09 <Nexos> Similar: search for <<foo>>, put the cursor on the f, hit Delete => <<foo>> become <<oo>>>
08:19:15 <Nexos> can you try this one?
08:19:38 <dpeg> not now, sorry
08:22:56 <edlothiol> ah, kilobyte -- I think fennec still uses an older version of the websockets protocol, which is why it can't connect
08:24:26 <Cryp71c> ??twisted ice dragon armour
08:24:28 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled twisted_ice_dragon_armour in my learndb.
08:24:38 <Cryp71c> gah! randart ice dragon armour for 3k -_-
08:24:40 <Cryp71c> ??ice dragon armour
08:24:41 <Henzell> ice dragon armour[1/1]: A magical armour, made from the scales of a cold-breathing dragon. It provides great protection from the effects of cold, but renders its wearer more susceptible to the effects of fire and heat. (heavy armour; AC 9, EV -3, ++cold, -fire, 35 aum)
08:26:49 <Cryp71c> ??rusty dagger
08:26:51 <Henzell> morg[1/1]: Many years ago it was the property of a powerful mage called Boris. He got lost in the Dungeon while seeking the Orb. {-1,+4 dagger; Pain Brand; Magic Resistance; +5 Intelligence}
08:27:00 <Cryp71c> woot! morg!
08:27:10 <Cryp71c> ah christ. I'm in dev.
08:27:12 <Cryp71c> Sorry guys
08:27:31 <dpeg> I parsed that as "ah christ, I'm a dev" :)
08:27:54 <kilobyte> you mean, you don't have all unrand descriptions memorized yet? :p
08:28:06 <kilobyte> (seriously, there's no point in keeping them secret)
08:28:33 <dpeg> true
08:28:41 <dpeg> or we could randomise them
08:28:45 <Henzell> modargo the Martial Artist (L13 DGTm) ERROR: range check error (52 / 52) (Lair:7)
08:29:17 <kilobyte> of course, I made a point of making "fabulously ornate robe" a frequent randart description when I made Misfortune have a random appearance :)
08:30:42 <dpeg> :)
08:31:17 <dpeg> ornat  = church dress, isn't it? Should always have bad properties :=
08:32:04 <kilobyte> dpeg: In Polish and, I guess, German -- but not in English, at least not in my dictionary.
08:32:10 <dpeg> ah, good to know
08:32:24 <kilobyte> "ornate" is a valid word but without such connotations
08:55:54 <galehar> kilobyte: do you really believe that tornado can be balanced by making it conj/air?
08:56:11 <galehar> 39 damage per turn (irresistible, undodgeable, AC ignoring)
08:56:59 <galehar> you only need 2 turns to beat fire storm (against non resisting, non AC monster)
08:57:38 <galehar> against AC20 rF+++ monster, 1 turn of tornado beat FS
08:58:00 <kilobyte> 2 turns is indeed too little
08:58:22 <CIA-60> 03kilobyte * r469917c1b8b6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Make the Singing Sword spammier when in high tension, change its name.
08:58:32 <CIA-60> 03kilobyte * ra92b7b9093e5 10/crawl-ref/source/artefact.cc: Remove an invalid comment.
08:58:32 <CIA-60> 03kilobyte * rdf449e0d30f1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (artefact.cc artefact.h spl-book.cc): s/artefact_name()/make_artefact_name()/ to reduce confusion.
08:59:15 <kilobyte> dpeg: the toy is yours!
08:59:18 <Cryp71c> dpeg, several days ago I lost like 3 big commits to a silly mistake on my part -_-
08:59:27 <kilobyte> Cryp71c: reflog?
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08:59:32 <Cryp71c> been trying to remember all I did -_- doh
09:00:28 <Cryp71c> kilobyte, no :( I was formatting to change distros and didn't have a thumb drive handy (but I had an sdcard in my netbook's sdreader, so I backed up my git (as well as patches for the commits I hadn't pushed)
09:01:16 <Cryp71c> So I backed everything up on the sdreader, reformatted to change distros, went to restore my git...and realized that either the backup didn't copy properly or else I copied it to the wrong drive / partition.
09:01:19 <Cryp71c> Just dumb user error.
09:01:36 <kilobyte> dpeg: I made it query the db every single turn, so if you want no spam in a given turn, return "NONE"
09:01:55 <kilobyte> Cryp71c: :(
09:06:06 <kilobyte> dpeg: I implemented only the name changing and spam tiers... once you know what exactly the sword should do, you can put it in art-data.h/SINGING_SWORD_world_reacts() (or tell it to me, due or whoever else fails to hide from you :p)
09:15:14 <galehar> kilobyte: could you explain 065c54c03 to me? I'd like to fix this bug.
09:15:21 <galehar> I don't understand the point of !!
09:15:31 <galehar> I tried just removing them and it seems to work fine.
09:17:35 <kilobyte> it works on some compilers/word widths/optimization flags but not on others
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09:17:56 <kilobyte> I don't recall where it worked and where it didn't
09:19:30 <galehar> so with !! it works on some compilers, and without it works on others?
09:22:21 <kilobyte> for some values of "works": flags above 32 bits will be usually lost if the compiler follows type promotion rules literally.  If it assumes that illegal cases can't happen (gcc likes this assumption), it might first promote the value to 64 bits and then shift, in which case it will accidentally work.
09:24:24 <kilobyte> the problem was in incorrect parenthesising
09:25:03 <kilobyte> putting promotion first, before the shift, makes it work for all flags within 64 bits
09:25:42 <kilobyte> although there is a new problem: we have used up all of those 64 bits now :p
09:27:17 <kilobyte> I guess you want a new flag, right?
09:28:06 <galehar> no, I just want to fix the "radiating silence" bug
09:28:31 <galehar> I don't understand your revert. The parenthesis was the same before.
09:28:45 <kilobyte> er, is that bug still showing up?
09:28:53 <galehar> yes
09:29:03 <galehar> I think it's when doing native windows build
09:29:10 <galehar> I do it sometimes from work :)
09:29:49 <kilobyte> MB_SILENCING is 31, so there must be some case when a 32 bit variable is used
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09:32:14 <galehar> removing the !! fix the bug
09:32:41 <kilobyte> on that particular architecture...
09:32:55 <galehar> which is similar to what 47da0d9b did (which you reverted) but cleaner
09:34:17 <galehar> what type promotion is happening? Both variables are uint64_t, aren't they?
09:36:08 <kilobyte> (uint64_t)1 << mbflag
09:36:18 <kilobyte> it's int<<int
09:36:35 <kilobyte> which is then cast into an uint64_t
09:37:10 <kilobyte> got to go, I'll be back as I'll come home
09:37:36 <kilobyte> let's extend the flags array, 64 bits are not enough too
09:38:44 <galehar> ok, fine
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09:39:49 <galehar> return mb & (static_cast<uint64_t>(1) << mbflag);
09:39:52 <galehar> better?
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09:40:06 <kilobyte> what about using FixedBitArray?  It should be optimized into direct accesses of particular bits.
09:40:31 <galehar> I haven't used this yet. I'll look into it.
09:40:33 <kilobyte> since uint128_t is not universally supported
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10:19:25 <Napkin> if I may... again..
10:19:44 <Napkin> liquid fire destroying 90% of your scrolls sucks badly.
10:25:06 <elliptic> you can drop them usually
10:25:19 <elliptic> it also helps to carry around fewer scrolls
10:26:14 <elliptic> I have to say though that I came to crawl from games with far worse item destruction so that contributes to me not really minding sticky flame so much :)
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10:31:49 <Zaba> Napkin, imagine yourself being splashed with burning napalm in real life, and you'll be thankful that you get to merely lose 90% of your scrolls in crawl ;P
10:32:48 <Napkin> yeah, well.. imagine yourself eating a cucumber and getting EHEC
10:32:55 <Napkin> welcome to nethack
10:33:29 <Eronarn> item destruction is a crutch for not being able to think of more interesting game mechanics
10:35:45 <ais523> Napkin: cucumbers aren't in NetHack
10:37:28 <Cryp71c> Eronarn, item destruction is a cruch for having an overabundance of items is a cruch for something else relating to making players happy they're finding useful stuff.
10:37:40 <Cryp71c> s/cruch/crutch
10:38:53 <Napkin> omg
10:41:16 <Napkin> the arguments are always
10:42:53 <Napkin> always the same
10:42:59 <elliptic> cryp71c: I don't think item destruction is about there being too many items
10:43:36 <elliptic> the main function item destruction serves is to make it not be a no-brainer to carry all your useful consumables with you at all time, on chars with decent strength
10:43:38 <ais523> the problem with item destruction is the ease of stashing
10:43:51 <Napkin> pffff
10:43:56 <elliptic> there might be other ways to solve this issue other than item destruction but that's what it does
10:43:57 <ais523> it makes it a no-brainer to never carry useful consumables with you if they only have strategical uses
10:44:00 <ais523> e.g. potions of cure mutation
10:44:04 <ais523> who carries those around knowingly?
10:44:53 <Napkin> i'm not talking about the occasional destruction of a potion or a scroll
10:45:45 <elliptic> napkin: yeah, what I just wrote is really about the occasional destruction of a potion or a scroll rather than sticky flame
10:46:00 <elliptic> I'm not sure what purpose sticky flame serves, honestly
10:46:18 <Cryp71c> To make demonspawn conserve scrolls more useful.
10:46:45 <elliptic> it doesn't bother me particularly because I'm used to games with lots more item destruction, but I also don't think much about crawl would be lost if sticky flame scroll destruction was nerfed
10:47:45 <elliptic> could halve sticky flame scroll destruction or something
10:48:37 <Napkin> people will still stash their precious cure mutation, blinking, recharge, vorpalize etc if sticky flame destroyed half of what it wipes out at the moment
10:48:44 <elliptic> yes
10:49:30 <elliptic> I guess the main effect I can see of halving sticky flame scroll destruction is that it would make abyss a bit easier/less painful
10:49:44 <Napkin> why abyss?
10:49:46 <elliptic> because smoke demons are common there and you can't drop scrolls as safely
10:50:05 <elliptic> and having all your teleport burn is really bad there
10:50:06 <Napkin> oh.. i don't remember ever getting liquid fire in abyss :-O
10:51:29 <Napkin> now - don't tell me i should visit it more often, please ;-P
10:54:58 <ortoslon> Napkin: but you should, it's a comfortable place for high-level chars
10:55:29 <Napkin> my loot from elf5: the cursed -7 pair of boots of Minleof {rF+ rC+ Acc-2}
10:55:48 <Napkin> high-level chars with reasonable equipment, maybe ;)
10:56:17 <elliptic> @whereis napkin
10:56:17 <Gretell> No where information for napkin.
10:56:21 <elliptic> !lm napkin
10:56:22 <Sequell> 2778. [2011-05-26] Napkin the Executioner (L22 MDFi) entered Doroklohe's Tomb on turn 91380. (D:25)
10:56:39 <Napkin> @whereis
10:56:39 <Gretell> No where information for Napkin.
10:56:51 <Napkin> oh.. pity.. i had hoped due fixed it
10:57:04 <elliptic> heavy armour characters also have a much worse time with sticky flame, of course
10:57:27 <Napkin> of course..
10:57:48 <Napkin> robes go out so much faster ;>
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10:58:21 <elliptic> yeah, it would make sense for armour to give some amount of protection from item destruction
10:58:24 <Napkin> i'll better shut up before i get more sarcastic :-$
10:58:33 <Napkin> sorry
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11:03:57 <Eronarn> i'd like it if armor were overall better but worse against some specific threats
11:04:18 <Eronarn> like ghosts (reach through it)
11:05:03 <ortoslon> "ghost attacks should ignore AC" is somewhere in the wiki
11:05:27 <Eronarn> i'm not sure if they should outright ignore it but armor being way less effective against them might be interesting
11:05:33 <Ashenzari> Large amounts of the newest monsters make Windows Tiles vomit up unrandart, weapon tiles (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4054) by Claws
11:06:02 <Cryp71c> Eronarn, there is potential for various little changes like that. Whatever changes might come into the light with that regard, I only ask that we keep in mind from the beginning that I'd like the effects to be congruent for both monsters and players.
11:06:15 <Eronarn> constriction would be another one; it should constrict even if it's not doing damage
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11:06:49 <Cryp71c> Eronarn, could make constriction an ability, rather than an attack effect and give it to races with tails.
11:07:16 <Eronarn> Cryp71c: i'm of the opinion that an ability would feel too removed from normal play
11:07:22 <Eronarn> i'd rather have an implicit constriction ability
11:08:00 <Cryp71c> Eronarn, perhaps, implicit constriction feels like its just buffing combatant that can constrict, rather than giving them a strategic choice.
11:08:03 <Eronarn> i detailed this on SF somewhere: you never constrict things that would hurt you if you tried; constricting is automatic; it ends when you step away from the monster or when it breaks out; the only negative side effect of doing it is the monster won't run away from you (and this is very minor, generally)
11:08:29 <Cryp71c> if neither the constrictor nor the contrictee can take significant action (movement or attack?) while under the effects of constriction, you could use it to your advantage while waiting for an effect (teleportation) to take effect, and it would be dangerous to use against a target if other targets are around.
11:08:54 <ortoslon> in Wesnoth, heavily armoured characters are more vulnerable to heat and cold
11:09:03 <Eronarn> i think an effect like that would get people killed badly
11:09:34 <Cryp71c> it wouldn't just force 8 turns to pass without the player's notice, they would have to chose to continue the constriction
11:09:49 <ais523> ortoslon: not always, it's not an effect of the armour
11:09:52 <Eronarn> i mean that it would be harder to use
11:10:00 <Eronarn> than just having it be a passive effect
11:10:01 <ais523> just that things with good physical resistances tend to have bad magical resistances
11:10:13 <Cryp71c> Yeah, passive would make the effect less clunky and more streamlined for "fun" gameplay.
11:10:26 <ortoslon> hmm, i always thought it was because heat takes longer to dissipate
11:10:45 <Cryp71c> I'm starting to get into the mindset of effects or changes which allow the player to make a more strategic series of actions, rather than just adding more "stuff"
11:11:10 <Eronarn> Cryp71c: this would apply with constriction: you can only constrict one thing, so you want to have it be the thing you most want constricted
11:11:13 <Eronarn> rather than, say, popcorn
11:13:04 <Cryp71c> Eronarn, but that implies you must be attacking the thing you most want constricted, nor is there any tradeoff of constricting a target. You're still free to attack (and continue to deal damage as normal) and you get the bonuses of constriction, however minimal they may be.
11:13:43 <Eronarn> Cryp71c: yes, but it might take several attacks for constrict to kick in, so you can't just attack once and then switch
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11:19:23 <bmh> hello!
11:19:32 <Zaba> moin bmh
11:20:01 <bmh> (UTC+1 here)
11:20:44 <bmh> dpeg: thanks for the ringing endorsement.
11:20:51 <Zaba> UTC+4 here :P
11:22:10 <bmh> Zaba, could you sanity check some code? it works fine on 32bit arch, but not 64
11:22:15 <Zaba> maybe
11:22:38 <bmh> I cleaned up all the longs are uint32_t, but must have missed something
11:22:57 <Zaba> where is the code?
11:22:58 <bmh> s/are/as
11:23:45 <bmh> http://github.com/bhickey/crawl/cellular.cc - I believe
11:23:52 <bmh> er
11:24:11 <bmh> crawl/crawl-ref/source/cellular.cc
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12:00:49 <Ashenzari> CMD_NO_CMD (968:111) wrong for desired context (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4055) by XuaXua
12:05:41 <Wensley> right, that reminds me, if anyone hasn't tried out bmh's abyss yet, do it. it's wonderful.
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13:04:03 <Henzell> mafalda the Ducker (L9 FeSt) ASSERT(duration[DUR_AFRAID] > 0 == !fearmongers.empty()) in 'fearmonger.cc' at line 57 failed on turn 15740. (Lab)
13:06:10 <CIA-60> 03dolorous * r9cf90108d543 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Add minor cosmetic fixes.
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13:56:23 <Nexos> I'm suffering from a weird bug: search for <<foo>>, put the cursor on the f, hit Delete => <<foo>> become <<oo>>>. Can someone confirm?
13:59:35 <bhaak> I can confirm a bug, but your bug description doesn't sound like a bug :) I'm seeing:  abcdef <del> bcdeff <del> cdefff
14:04:00 <Nexos> bhaak: does my example work similarly for you?
14:04:17 <Nexos> I will reword it better in the bug repoty :p
14:04:23 <Nexos> report*
14:06:05 <Zao> In what tool is this?
14:06:09 <bhaak> i see the string not reducing in lenght, although the first character being deleted, the last character duplicated/appended at the end
14:06:25 <Zao> Delete (as interpreted by sane OSes) is "erase-one-forward"
14:08:41 <Nexos> Indeed in you delete a (non-last) char, last char is duplicated; impossible to delete last char with Del: OK with Backspace
14:08:47 <Nexos> I'll file a bug
14:14:15 <kilobyte> ok, I've recently messed heavily with this code (to add support for UTF-8, CJK and combining characters), it's likely I as usually screwed up something
14:18:11 <Gretell> Daiyousei (L23 SpAs) ERROR: range check error (-55 / 17) (Vault:7)
14:20:30 <kilobyte> !lm Daiyousei type=crash -log
14:20:31 <Sequell> 1. Daiyousei, XL23 SpAs, T:73049 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.8/Daiyousei/crash-Daiyousei-20110526-191808.txt
14:26:35 <Ashenzari> Ctrl-F: Find items handles Del key incorrecty (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4056) by Nexos
14:26:42 <Nexos> Something odd as well, I search for "foo" and I see items
14:27:23 <upsy> yes, food
14:27:39 <Nexos> ah yes... right
14:28:21 <Nexos> didn't know you could shorten search terms
14:53:48 <Cryp71c> Nexos, yep, there's a fair amount of logic you can do in search.
14:54:31 <Cryp71c> Nexos, you can do stuff like "artefact && mace" to get everything that is an artefact and matches "mace" (whether its got "mace" in its name or is of the "Maces & Flails" type)
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14:56:13 <Nexos> Cryp71c: right... it would be nice if you could use normal regexps, though... the << >> || doubling syntax is cumbersome
14:56:16 <Nexos> IMNSHO
14:57:49 <Cryp71c> Nexos, whoever wrote it used && and || because its simpler than regex for the average user but easier to identify than simple keywords like "AND"
14:58:21 <Cryp71c> And since searching usually isn't too complex, the overhead and aggrivation of typing your search in a regex style is probably more than we need/want.
14:58:33 <Nexos> Yeah I guess I'm an exception here
14:58:45 <Nexos> I tend to use long complex searches
14:59:56 <Nexos> Anyway, I don't get the point of doubling '<', '>' (,...)  It's not like someone would search for stairs :)
15:00:13 <Cryp71c> Nexos, what purpose do << and >> do in the search?
15:00:19 <Nexos> grouping
15:00:30 <Nexos> Ex: <<foo||bar>>&&!!baz
15:01:09 <Nexos> Like non-capturing parentheses in regexps
15:02:59 <Cryp71c> ah, gotcha. yeah I've never had cause to use any grouping :)
15:25:39 <Excedrin> currently, if you banish something, the notes says "Defeated X", so if you later kill it in abyss there's 2 "defeated X" entries, it'd be easy to change it so that the first one says "Banished X" instead
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15:25:49 <Excedrin> oh hey
15:25:53 <ahpla> oh :P
15:25:58 <Excedrin> ahpla volunteered to submit a patch
15:26:00 <Excedrin> for that
15:26:04 <ahpla> if it is indeed a bug
15:26:33 <galehar> sure, go ahead.
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15:47:01 <Ashenzari> Crashed when playing as a DDEE on Zot Defense. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4057) by joelsdaman
15:48:07 <CIA-60> 03kilobyte * r0c5cc7a416c7 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Make sixfirhy bursts more visible: 8/24 rather than 4/12.
15:48:18 <CIA-60> 03kilobyte * rf9d2368b7d27 10/crawl-ref/source/ (bitary.h mon-info.cc mon-info.h tag-version.h tags.cc tags.h): Allow more than 64 mon_info flags.
15:49:05 <galehar> thanks :)
15:49:38 <kilobyte> galehar: do you have access to that setup of yours that could reproduce that "radiating silence" bug?  Or is it at work?
15:50:07 <galehar> it's at work
15:50:19 <galehar> I can try booting windows, I have something to do there anyway
15:50:26 <galehar> or I'll test tomorrow
15:50:40 <galehar> anyway, I'll let you know
15:51:08 <kilobyte> cool, thanks
15:57:04 <Ashenzari> "Defeated" note added when interesting monsters are banished (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4058) by ahpla
16:06:46 <bmh> I think I found a glitchy vault
16:07:46 <bmh> https://gist.github.com/994078
16:08:10 <elliptic> what about it?
16:08:20 <bmh> shouldn't the centre chamber be at the end of the series of doors? It had a yaktaur captain and good loot
16:09:07 <elliptic> iirc the door from the center room is random
16:09:18 <elliptic> if so, it is probably intentionally random
16:10:45 <bmh> ok. As a player, I expect the clockwise/counter-clockwise orientation to be random
16:15:23 <elliptic> there is actually a lot of randomization in that vault
16:15:27 <elliptic> !vault minmay_evil_grid
16:15:31 <Henzell> Lines pasted to http://paste.scsys.co.uk/107560
16:15:43 <bmh> oh, wow
16:17:24 <bmh> There is an entrance to Plog's General Store here. -- that store just wants another 'o'
16:22:32 <Cryp71c> fight differences between players and monsters makes me sad.
16:22:40 <bmh> oh?
16:22:52 <bmh> as in the fight code isn't unified?
16:23:13 <Cryp71c> It feels like two people (each with disassociative personality disorder) were on pcp and took turns coding each others stuff.
16:23:27 <Cryp71c> All while shifting between different personalities
16:23:43 <Cryp71c> Theres hardly any congruency anywhere :(
16:24:00 <Cryp71c> (Not that I didn't know that coming into it) I guess its just getting to me....ITS GETTING TO ME MAN!
16:27:06 <bmh> Cryp71c: The differences between 32-bit abyss and 64-bit abyss on my branch are driving me batty
16:27:21 <Cryp71c> :)
16:27:43 <bmh> I should probably write my own code rather than crawl code to save myself
16:28:05 <bmh> http://i.imgur.com/Y92QJ.png  <-- this has been on the shelf for the past four months
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16:36:59 <Cryp71c> heading out
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16:57:40 <Wensley> so, has it always been possible to blink into damaging clouds?
16:58:53 <due> no, that's a recent change
17:00:40 <Wensley> one of my friends is pretty pissed that he just lost a character to blinking into freezing clouds two turns in a row :P
17:02:29 <due> this is crawl.
17:02:32 <due> people die very regularly.
17:02:38 <due> why is your friend any different?
17:02:59 <Wensley> because suddenly the behavior of a known spell changed unexpectedly
17:03:19 <Wensley> with tragic results
17:03:25 <due> in trunk?
17:03:32 <Eronarn> it's been in for quite a while
17:03:44 <Wensley> since when has it been in?
17:03:53 -!- kilobyte has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
17:03:54 <due> about six months, at least?
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17:04:08 <Wensley> yeah, he hasn't played since the last tournament :P
17:04:28 <due> ... he hasn't played in over a year, yet he's pissed because something changed in the interim?
17:04:54 <due> s/over/almost a year/
17:05:06 <Wensley> no, he's pissed because, once again, a known quantity changed for no reason that he can fathom
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17:05:33 <due> crawl is not at a stand-still.
17:05:45 <upsy> pretty easy to see how you can abuse that
17:06:19 <due> uncontrolled blink used to be, pretty much, a free pass past any cloud.
17:09:27 <due> the self-righteous screams of the newly dead are easily exaggerated :)
17:09:28 <Wensley> due: did I ever say crawl was at a standstill? it's weird to me that you're surprised to hear that people will get mad upon discovering that a rule that they have taken for granted has changed, thus causing the loss of their character
17:11:12 <due> i was commenting on "known quantity".
17:15:01 <due> also, i'm not surprised; in fact, i find it so common that i think it is cliche. people are always willing to scream when they lose a character through what is perceived as no fault of their own.
17:15:44 <due> if we were to respond to every such incident by changing the game, we'd ... have trouble; thus, we tend to ignore it, unless it is a significantly bad issue (ie, there are a *lot* of people complaining).
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17:40:13 <ais523> due: I think I'm more or less constantly annoyed at Crawl for that reason, and you lot ignore me (probably rightly so)
17:40:35 <ais523> in fact, I've had Crawl players annoyed at me for having V as the command to destroy wands in AceHack
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17:41:58 <Wensley> due: he's not suggesting that it be changed back, nor is he livid with fury. but I'd hesitate to say that the death was entirely his fault, he just had the bad luck to operate under a specific outdated assumption based on previous behavior and subsequently had the rug pulled out from under him. nor is it the fault of whoever decided to change blink to put you in clouds, because I agree that...
17:42:00 <Wensley> ...that's the correct behavior. really, the tragedy here is miscommunication between devs and players, rather than the failure of any one specific person
17:44:09 <CIA-60> 03galehar * r7d1ad11a8ec9 10/crawl-ref/source/ (beam.cc monster.cc): Move the positive check inside armour_class()
17:44:19 <CIA-60> 03galehar * re94ff2d778d1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (beam.cc spl-damage.cc traps.cc): Fix a few places where the AC bonus from withdrawn is ignored.
17:44:19 <CIA-60> 03galehar * r71cb1e94d2fd 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-tornado.cc: Nerf tornado's damage.
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18:03:34 <due> Wensley: the onus is not on us to contact every player and tell them what changes we've made; likewise, you can't come to an actively developed game after six months and expect nothing to have changed -- even things you considered "concrete".
18:03:48 <due> anyway, this conversation has entered the realms of pointlessness.
18:04:22 <Wensley> due: not true, I've seen several complaints concerning crawl's changelog
18:04:46 <due> don't be stupid.
18:04:49 <due> go away for now.
18:16:31 <kilobyte> !tell galehar er... 66% of damage _and_ AC?  What's the point in that?
18:16:31 <Henzell> kilobyte: OK, I'll let galehar know.
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18:24:10 <CIA-60> 03dolorous * r2192b2e80cfc 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-info.cc: Properly ignore sixfirhies' number (used for speed bursts) in monster_info.
18:27:51 <Ashenzari> Fleeing gecko traveled across lava. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4059) by velocirapture
18:32:28 <Eronarn> kilobyte: imo better to nerf damage more heavily, and then try to remove hte casting malus
18:32:34 <Eronarn> and have it be single school
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18:40:35 <kilobyte> Eronarn: single schoolness has been discussed to death
18:41:23 <kilobyte> if you want Shatter 2, code it yourself.
18:44:08 <kilobyte> except for those who use it just for a show, there's no point in such spells.  The niche is just too small and too tedious to use.  Either you balance level 9 spells for full games, or a part of a minimal game for thoroughly focused chars.
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18:56:03 <Eronarn> shatter is just fine, i'm not sure what you think the problem with it is
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22:18:55 <Zannick> if the last of a fungal colony is a spore, and it doesn't make any ballistomycetes, i don't get xp
22:19:22 <due> sounds like a buggy bug bug
22:19:48 <Zannick> as opposed to some other type of bug :P
22:20:26 <due> yup
22:20:33 <due> normal bugs are boring and non-delicious
22:28:05 <ion> That sounds like a bug QuickCheck might have caught. :-)
22:45:29 <evilmike> is mislead supposed to be able to carry between levels?
22:46:24 <evilmike> i had mara cast it on my just as i was taking the stairs, and wound up having the status on the previous level
22:49:23 <due> Hm.
22:49:28 <due> ion: QuickCheck?
22:49:50 <due> evilmike: No; in theory the status is supposed to be dropped when you change levels -- but it's possible that the code to do so is being called before the status effect is sent...
22:50:07 <due> evilmike: Possibly the code needs to be rewritten to hook on level arrival, rather than departure.
22:50:12 <due> (Seeing as things can happen inbetween.)
22:50:15 <evilmike> I could submit a bug report on mantis if you want
22:50:21 <due> Plz! <3
22:50:26 <due> ion: What is QuickCheck when it is at home?
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22:59:15 <Ashenzari> Mislead status can carry between levels when taking the stairs (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4060) by evilmike
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23:06:52 <ion> due: In typical unit tests, you need to figure out all the things that can go wrong and manually write tests for them. When using QuickCheck, you write test generators (for instance, the possible state transitions for a ballisto colony) and the test runner generates hundreds of test cases randomly. http://www.quviq.com/demos.html (Those are demos for an Erlang implementation, but there are a number of implementations for various languages.)
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23:07:37 <due> Meh, commercial.
23:07:46 <due> Sounds interesting, though.
23:09:15 <ion> That’s the only commercial implementation AFAIK. And for Erlang there are free alternatives. I know the Haskell and C++ implementations to be free.
23:09:53 <ion> C++ http://software.legiasoft.com/quickcheck/
23:10:10 <ion> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuickCheck
23:21:10 <ion> http://www.quviq.com/demos/QuickCheck%20Elevator%20Demo/QuickCheck%20Elevator%20Demo.htm is a nice demo about testing a program with state.
23:30:02 <due> Oh