00:30:05 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:52:57 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 00:53:30 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 01:00:13 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:06:04 i have a spider with a corridor 01:12:24 http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.8/jokeserver/jokeserver.txt 01:12:29 0.8 01:12:45 it's right at the entrance 01:13:01 just in case anyone wants to know... 01:13:07 * Zannick shrugs 01:13:20 otherwise, good night 01:22:48 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:23:51 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:23 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 02:11:28 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:15:39 -!- purge has quit [Quit: .] 02:16:33 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 02:16:39 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:17:01 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:42:14 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:42:46 hey 02:44:36 galehar: meow! 02:45:17 kilobyte: how about we nerf tornado's damage? 02:46:14 bad idea for reasons previously described. It's it being pure Air that's a disaster :( 02:46:56 kilobyte: I disagree. I think tornado should compare to shatter, not storms. 02:47:06 you can get it before Vaults while it's balanced to be very roughly equivalent to Fire/Icestorm (less damage, more efficiency) 02:47:43 hell no... it would make it good for lateish 3-runer for those who strictly focus -- ie, a quite small niche 02:47:53 it shouldn't. air is the schoool with the most utility spells. It doesn't need a storm-like spell 02:48:23 the utility spells are low level 02:48:48 I think it's fine if it's mostly useful for clearing branch ends and zot 02:49:03 3-runer = boring 02:49:31 kilobyte: :( 02:49:34 if we return Zig runs to Firestorm only, it wouldn't be a change for the good 02:49:56 or Hells, or the rest 02:50:14 we already have 2 storm spells, do we really need a third? 02:50:20 another reason: look at IOOD 02:50:40 a fun spell with a fun mechanics -- and utterly useless because it had to be balanced for a single school 02:50:52 it's not useless 02:51:09 not every spell has to be useful in the extended endgame 02:51:13 somehow I don't see people using it 02:51:29 well, that's the whole reason for level 9 spells 02:52:02 you can't get them without focusing heavily in a minimal game, so they're meant for full games 02:52:18 and that getting them is possible doesn't mean many people will bother 02:54:52 L9 single school is a bit different. Isn't shatter useful and balanced? 02:57:08 I've seen a single game when someone tried using it... and had to resort to other spells most of the time 02:58:44 it might be good to take a look at recent spell usage stats 03:03:06 -!- kilobyte has quit [Quit: yay long-running irssi and perl 5.10 -> 5.12] 03:05:25 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 03:30:27 hi 03:36:08 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 03:37:12 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 03:41:14 kilobyte: I remember someone suggesting making tornado a level 10 spell, although I'm not sure they were entirely serious 03:44:24 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 03:46:21 There's already some code in place for higher than L9 spells. Not sure if it's complete. 03:59:29 -!- ZorbaTHut has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:59:33 -!- ZorbaBeta has joined ##crawl-dev 04:09:04 -!- ortoslon has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:09:04 -!- ortoslon1 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:09:04 -!- ortoslon1 is now known as ortoslon 04:12:18 -!- ion has quit [Quit: Shutting down for safety, replacing broken RAID-1 HDD in a couple of hours] 04:13:35 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:13:35 -!- joosa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:22:54 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:22:55 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 04:23:34 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 04:23:53 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 04:27:31 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:04:09 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 05:09:43 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:22:41 !learn add Abominations (chaotic, differently insane): damage, Ablutions (impure): damage, Apostates (intelligent): fear/confusion, god worshippers: blind/anti-caster, Anathema (unholy): fear/confusion/damage 05:22:41 abominations[1/1]: (chaotic, differently insane): damage, Ablutions (impure): damage, Apostates (intelligent): fear/confusion, god worshippers: blind/anti-caster, Anathema (unholy): fear/confusion/damage 05:22:47 !learn add recite Abominations (chaotic, differently insane): damage, Ablutions (impure): damage, Apostates (intelligent): fear/confusion, god worshippers: blind/anti-caster, Anathema (unholy): fear/confusion/damage 05:22:47 recite[5/5]: Abominations (chaotic, differently insane): damage, Ablutions (impure): damage, Apostates (intelligent): fear/confusion, god worshippers: blind/anti-caster, Anathema (unholy): fear/confusion/damage 05:22:53 !learn del Abominations 05:22:54 Deleted abominations[1/1]: (chaotic, differently insane): damage, Ablutions (impure): damage, Apostates (intelligent): fear/confusion, god worshippers: blind/anti-caster, Anathema (unholy): fear/confusion/damage 05:24:10 !learn add recite Most orcs worship Beogh so they get hurt extra. 05:24:10 recite[6/6]: Most orcs worship Beogh so they get hurt extra. 05:37:59 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:38:13 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:46:35 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 05:46:35 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:47:22 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:47:22 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 05:50:05 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 05:52:29 -!- edlothiol has left ##crawl-dev 05:56:14 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:26:31 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:40:58 -!- elly has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:41:12 dazzle (L13 DEAE) ASSERT(map_bounds(c)) in 'target.cc' at line 17 failed. (Lair:8) 06:41:49 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 06:42:17 dazzle (L13 DEAE) ASSERT(map_bounds(c)) in 'target.cc' at line 17 failed. (Lair:8) 06:42:36 dazzle (L13 DEAE) ASSERT(map_bounds(c)) in 'target.cc' at line 17 failed. (Lair:8) 06:43:27 ^ happens when I aim poisonous cloud 06:43:42 dazzle (L13 DEAE) ASSERT(map_bounds(c)) in 'target.cc' at line 17 failed. (Lair:8) 06:47:07 dazzle (L13 DEAE) ASSERT(map_bounds(c)) in 'target.cc' at line 17 failed. (Lair:8) 06:47:25 dazzle (L13 DEAE) ASSERT(map_bounds(c)) in 'target.cc' at line 17 failed. (Lair:8) 06:47:35 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 06:48:20 dazzle (L13 DEAE) ASSERT(map_bounds(c)) in 'target.cc' at line 17 failed. (Lair:8) 06:53:55 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:13:34 !lm * crash -log 07:13:34 1057. dazzle, XL13 DEAE, T:20262 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/dazzle/crash-dazzle-20110519-114817.txt 07:20:18 newuser (L10 DEWz) ASSERT(map_bounds(c)) in 'target.cc' at line 17 failed. (D:10) 07:30:23 newuser (L10 DEWz) ASSERT(map_bounds(c)) in 'target.cc' at line 17 failed. (D:10) 07:30:58 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:41:15 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 07:50:57 Morning 07:51:02 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 07:51:54 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 07:57:02 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:03:35 hey 08:17:10 galehar, do you have any opinion on the fight rewrite stuff? 08:17:33 (the crd msg I sent, I mean) 08:17:55 hmm, let's see 08:18:13 1) seems minor. simplification is good 08:19:03 2) you're wondering which side to unify to? 08:19:29 I think Zin should stop you from attacking when confused 08:19:49 3) monsters can stab? 08:20:44 4) I'm all for making this more consistent and also a bit more significant, because currently, the bonus is really small. 08:21:08 (except for beogh which is probably fine) 08:22:50 5) players who can't see themselves are the invisible ones without sInv (I think there's the same penalty in NH). -5 to hit is fine 08:23:20 UC and forms are already pretty strong, I don't think they need a to_hit boost. 08:24:54 don't really have an opinion about inv and confusion maluses, except that consistency is probably good 08:26:30 6) just remove it, stabbing is powerful enough. If a monster can survive it, don't remove its only chance to harm you. 08:50:50 galehar, 2) more or less, I was leaning towards zin stopping confused attacks by the player within the sanc. 08:51:33 3) yes, mostly when they put players to sleep, but also maybe when a player is in a net? I didn't inspect what constituted a monster stab. 08:54:20 5) I'm not in favor of keeping a -5 malus to-hit because you're invisible and can't sInvis. Its not conveyed to the player and deeps too far into realism (of course you would have trouble interacting with things if you were invisible IRL, but when invisible, we're already making concessions that your clothes go invisible with you, as well as your equipment, etc.) I'm in favor of removing the malus, myself. 08:55:54 you're right. It's nethackish :) 08:57:00 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:57:10 -!- edlothiol has left ##crawl-dev 08:57:37 stabbing asymetry is ok. Paralysis is nasty enough, there's no need to add huge stabbing damage to it. 09:02:59 -!- jooosa has joined ##crawl-dev 09:12:12 -!- MixolWork has joined ##crawl-dev 09:12:33 quick question, should merfolk crusaders have the option to start with a trident? They aren't getting it in web tiles 09:12:48 not sure if that's a bug 09:13:42 -!- jooosa is now known as joosa 09:13:57 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 09:14:14 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 09:19:37 -!- plaidman_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:57 -!- ophanim has joined ##crawl-dev 09:26:27 MixolWork: Changed to spears because tridents were to awesome I think. 09:28:18 ah, ok, in .8? 09:29:27 Think so yes. 09:36:40 is the tile_flags enum saturated? Seems all the 32 bits are used. 09:37:08 Haha 09:52:37 -!- plaidman_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:54:05 -!- plaidman_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:01:52 -!- MixolWork has left ##crawl-dev 10:11:30 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:22:07 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 10:25:09 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:28:59 -!- plaidman_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:33:24 !tell galehar interestingly enough, sleeping/paralysis have the lowest bonus to stabbing, (a multiplier of like 1 or 2), distraction has the highest, 5 or 6, iirc. 10:33:24 Cryp71c: OK, I'll let galehar know. 10:39:51 !tell galehar s/bonus/multiplierythingy 10:39:52 Cryp71c: OK, I'll let galehar know. 10:41:58 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:52:10 kilobyte, any opinion from you on my notes? 11:12:24 03dolorous * rb2182775018d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Properly use possessive/reflexive references in monster speech. 11:12:34 03dolorous * race02e0fb217 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Fix apparent misplaced comma. 11:12:35 03dolorous * rec90c00bbee0 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Fix wording. 11:12:35 03dolorous * rd1a8903cf536 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Properly handle reflexive pronoun replacement in monster speech. 11:23:48 Cryp71c: with regard to stabbing asymmetry, when *do* monsters stab? because my principle I'd much rather there just be one formula for stab damage, if at all possible 11:27:06 Wensley, when players are slept or paralyzed. Symmetry cannot be obtained for stabbing unless players are SUPER nerfed (otherwise, being stabbed by a monster wielding a short blade of any sort is almost certain death) 11:27:54 that's fine then 11:29:16 with regard to your first question, I'm a bit confused. does zin stop attacks even when you're not in a sanctuary? 11:31:00 Wensley, only if the target or you are in the sanctuary. 11:31:07 (that's true for both monsters and players, I believe) 11:34:00 huh, I always thought the point of sanctuary was that monsters would flee and *couldn't* attack you, except for edge cases like confusion (can you tell that all my priests have died on d:1?) 11:34:07 03dolorous * r1d3c54dbe163 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Properly use possessive/reflexive references in more monster speech. 11:34:07 03dolorous * rba19999981a3 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Fix typo. 11:37:28 Wensley, monsters in LOS will flee when sanctuary starts and will continue to flee until they leave the sanc (and for a bit further, until they hit a corner or obstruction), but will return and stand on the edge of sanctuary until they can attack. 11:37:52 Wensley, but friendly monsters never flee from sanctuary. 11:38:59 So if you start sanctuary with a friendly monster on the edge of LOS (so he's standing next to an enemy monster) who is confused, he could potentially attack the enemy monster (thus, violating sanctuary). Zin will stop this attack, but in doing so he also outputs some informational text "Zin stops monster from attacking in its confusion" or whatever. 11:39:21 #1 was about removing this unnecssary output, since there's no output under other circumstances of Zin stopping an attack within sanc. 11:40:20 perhaps sanctuary could simply remove all confusion, etc. effects for creatures in its radius? would jibe with zin's whole purity aspect 11:41:18 clarity enforced by the vigour of your righteousness, as it were 11:42:00 in any case, removing the messages seems reasonable (although berserk monsters should probably not be attacking under sanctuary in the first place) 11:47:24 b0rsuk (L20 DGEE) ASSERT(map_bounds(c)) in 'target.cc' at line 17 failed. (D:20) 11:48:08 oh, sad, it looks like you can't force monsters to flee into lava while under sanctuary :( 11:49:04 Wensley, hehe, yeah no they won't do anything unusual, its just as if they had fled normally. 11:49:54 Cryp71c: with regard to (4), I'd love to see the choice of racial weapon be more important, and consistent for both players and monsters 11:50:26 (but now you have me thinking of what happens when a draconian wields a lance of dragon slaying...) 11:51:29 Wensley, I don't think draconians should be able to wield dragon slaying, or orcs orc slaying. 11:51:46 ah, totally forgot about orc slaying, what a bizarre brand 11:51:46 Demonspawn can't wield holy. 11:51:50 Aye. 11:52:06 that seems reasonable in terms of theme, unfortunately both brands are also pretty useless :P 11:52:18 Racial slaying brands need to be more significant, or should go up on the chopping block. 11:52:52 but at least with dragon slaying, the idea is that the lance just penetrates their scales, whereas with holy it gives off searing positive energy harmful to all evil creatures... not sure what the orc slaying justification is 11:53:07 Cryp71c: then beogh wrath would be kind of dead 11:53:16 dragon slaying i guess is actually quite powerful but it's only on polearms 11:53:19 ??beogh wrath 11:53:20 beogh wrath[1/1]: ABANDONMENT: 50 penance, you stop walking on water if applicable (glub glub glub glub), all tame orcs go hostile, and immediate retribution. RETRIBUTION: 25% smiting, 12.5% 1d2 dancing orc slaying weaps, 25% followers abandon you if still worshipping, else fall through 37.5% summon hostile (warlord, high priest, knight, warrior, plain) 11:53:25 orc slaying is pointless other than beogh wrath, yeah 11:53:46 ??orc slaying 11:53:47 all the summoned orcs get orc wrath weapons 11:53:47 orc slaying[1/1]: Increases damage by 75% against orcs. It can only be found on artifacts. If a Beoghite, orcs will have a lowered chance of converting to friendly if you are wielding a weapon with this brand. 11:53:49 Wensley, historically, dragon slaying amongst other dragon-esque lore is imbued with magical power or crafted with materials naturally harmful to dragons. 11:53:52 orc slaying 11:54:19 So draconians not wielding it is not unusual, imo. 11:54:24 I've used orc slaying in v:8 before anyway 11:55:06 casmith789, thinking ahead (post-rewrite) what if certain types of weapons were just naturally more or less effective against certain types of enemies (ehh...) 11:55:25 Cryp71c: I'm not familiar with any mythology that deals with materials that are naturally harmful to dragons... if anything, as fantastical magpies, they seem to be more attuned to metals and such than most other monsters 11:55:32 if you really want 11:55:32 Cryp71c: everything you mentioned (in the mail from May 13) seems to be good or neutral 11:55:47 kilobyte, k, yes that's the email to which I refer. 11:55:56 Cryp71c: like, maces are good vs skeletons etc? 11:56:02 I assume this is a move to try and differentiate weapons 11:56:16 skeletons could get rMace- :P 11:56:16 there's some really complicated ideas along those lines on the wiki somewhere 11:56:23 not sure how keen i am on them 11:56:35 ghallberg, sort of. YOu could be specific or general, but polearms are good against dragon family, but may have some penalty against small creatures. 11:57:00 MarvinPA: Would be alot of work I guess. 11:57:04 MarvinPA, yeah I like the depth added by some of them, but most (potentially including the one i'm making up at the moment) may be too complicated to implement / convey to the player. 11:57:06 orc slaying is nearly totally useless... orcs don't make the most powerful enemies, and the chances to get an orc slaying randart of a matching type while it's still relevant are negligible 11:57:13 Cryp71c: I think that's already represented in EV vs AC 11:57:20 dragon slaying is way too niche to be of much use too 11:57:26 Wensley, yeah, certainly with polearms it is. 11:57:36 kilobyte, FR: dragon branc 11:57:37 kilobyte: even for use in Zot? 11:57:38 there, solved. 11:57:44 useful now 11:57:44 :) 11:57:49 Zot = dragon branch :P 11:57:53 draconians are not the biggest threat in zot 11:58:04 but being able to mow them down in waves is still nice 11:58:09 Wensley: you won't put all your scrolls for a bunch of draconians... most people dive in Zot anyway 11:58:23 doesn't wielding dragon slaying also make dragon breaths aimed at you less accurate or something weird? 11:58:24 ah, that's right, I'm just a killdudes guy :P 11:58:37 MarvinPA, that sounds about par for fight.cc logic. 11:58:39 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:58:41 draconians are a pain in the ass, damage items, and give little xp 11:58:44 It wouldn't surprise me. 11:59:02 leaving just Wyrmbane could be enough 11:59:04 i wouldn't miss either orc or dragon slaying, anyway 11:59:06 yeah 11:59:14 (assuming wyrmbane were made actually worth using) 11:59:29 about that fixedart, what about giving it a chance to get +1,+1 whenever you kill a dragon? 11:59:40 kilobyte, +++ 11:59:42 that sounds neat. 11:59:52 the chances could be a formula with the dragon's HD and the current enchantment 12:00:02 @??pearl dragon 12:00:03 pearl dragon (08D) | Speed: 12 | HD: 18 | Health: 94-147 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 3508(holy), 2008(holy) | Flags: 08holy, sense invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(168), 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 08holy | XP: 5312 | Sp: holy breath (3d36). 12:00:05 @??golden dragon 12:00:06 golden dragon (08D) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 89-131 | AC/EV: 15/7 | Damage: 40, 20, 20 | Flags: sense invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(192), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 5985 | Sp: b.fire (3d27), b.cold (3d27), poisonous cloud (3d11). 12:00:15 @??quicksilver dragon 12:00:16 quicksilver dragon (11D) | Speed: 15 | HD: 16 | Health: 66-108 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 25, 20 | Flags: sense invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(149), 12drown | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 3546 | Sp: b.quicksilver (3d20). 12:00:30 @??draconian 12:00:30 draconian (07d) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 19-108 | AC/EV: 9/10 | Damage: 15 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(9) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 549. 12:00:41 @??draconian monk 12:00:42 pale draconian monk (02d) | Speed: 10 | HD: 16 | Health: 105-133 | AC/EV: 6/20 | Damage: 35, 20, 15 | Flags: cold-blooded, !sil | Res: 06magic(64) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2661 | Sp: steam ball (3d19). 12:00:50 @??draconian annihilator 12:00:50 pale draconian annihilator (12d) | Speed: 10 | HD: 16 | Health: 69-93 | AC/EV: 8/10 | Damage: 15 | Flags: spellcaster, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(85) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2076 | Sp: steam ball (3d19), b.lightning (3d21), crystal spear (3d35), blink, iron shot (3d29), poison arrow (3d23), teleport self. 12:01:18 @??tiamat 12:01:19 Tiamat (16d) | Speed: 10 | HD: 22 | Health: 380 | AC/EV: 25/10 | Damage: 60, 45 | Flags: cold-blooded, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(146), 02cold, 03poison | XP: 13593 | Sp: b.lightning (3d25) / b.quicksilver (3d20) / cold breath (3d28) / fire breath (3d28) / poisonous cloud (3d13). 12:02:38 kilobyte, not that I'm not in favor of axing orc/dragon slaying, but you could do the same thing (up to a max of 15/15) for regular orc/dragon slaying weapons. 12:02:44 Tiamat is an issue... people could stash her and get back to her when the enchantment is +18,+18 (or whatever the max would be) 12:02:51 But that wouldn't necessarily make much sense...so nevermind. 12:02:59 interesting idea... 12:03:00 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 12:03:23 I'd very slightly vote against for non-artefacts though 12:03:39 yeah, I'm still not inclined to vote for keeping orc/dragon slaying brands. 12:03:46 Aside from wyrmbane. 12:04:17 A more general (and comprehensive) system shoudl replace them though...what that system may be, IDK. 12:04:37 Or if we decide to use a more elaborate combat system, could spice up and add depth to combat through other means, I bet. 12:09:30 those brands are still good to have for enemies 12:10:09 reapers with drac slaying scythes can surprise you when doing hell with dracs 12:13:29 st_: heh, good point 12:13:37 and Sigmund! Don't forget Sigmund! 12:19:41 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:20:15 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:23:15 kilobyte: it's pretty hard to farm dragons after you get to zot :P 12:25:48 stashing... dragons? 12:26:33 hmm, I wonder if a temporary slaying brand spell would make for a good spell 12:26:37 it could adapt to the branch, perhaps 12:26:51 or to the nearest visible enemy 12:26:57 cast it with an orc in view and you get orc slaying, perhaps 12:40:16 -!- ophanim is now known as schoolanim 12:58:06 ais523, that sounds useful. 12:58:24 it might be hard to balance 13:00:14 Add commented-out invisibilty more messages to init.txt (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4015) by XuaXua 13:03:06 Yeah, quite. 13:24:56 ais523: that would be pretty cool if it used a chunk of flesh from that race 13:25:01 as a nec spell 13:25:13 Eronarn: ooh, that would be interesting 13:25:27 but the interface might be awkward, as you couldn't wield both the chunk and the weapon at once 13:25:43 presumably you'd select the chunk from inventory 13:25:56 either select chunk from inventory, or wield chunk + cast + select weapon (like using Blade card) 13:27:19 heck, it could do either, depending on which you have wielded 13:27:34 also it occurs to me that 'Lethal Infusion' would actually be... pretty much perfect as a name for this spell 13:27:58 what does lethal infusion even do at the moment? 13:28:07 I've never used it, or even found a book with it in 13:28:13 draining tempbrand 13:28:30 ah right 13:28:37 tempbrand names are weird 13:28:43 draining is a very problematic brand right now, anyways, and a 'foo-hating' brand would be a cool replacement 13:28:45 and now you mention that, I have used it, just forgot what it was called 13:29:24 though, the chunk mechanic may not be the best approach, since then it's totally useless against e.g. a strong lone enemy 13:30:08 perhaps it imprints on the first thing it harms, instead? 13:30:19 well, if it was totally useful against everything, there'd be no reason not to use it 13:30:34 a brand spell that's good against mobs but bad against uniques seems like an interesting place to have a spell 13:31:20 getting a chunk could be a problem against a mob though 13:31:25 maybe a corpse, instead? 13:31:29 kiku still remains relevant 13:33:17 make it so it works from both corpses and chunks, I imagine 13:38:14 Chousuke (L15 SpVM) ASSERT(map_bounds(c)) in 'target.cc' at line 17 failed. (Lair:8) 13:39:03 Chousuke (L15 SpVM) ASSERT(map_bounds(c)) in 'target.cc' at line 17 failed. (Lair:8) 13:41:42 Chousuke (L15 SpVM) ASSERT(map_bounds(c)) in 'target.cc' at line 17 failed. (Lair:8) 13:42:06 Chousuke (L15 SpVM) ASSERT(map_bounds(c)) in 'target.cc' at line 17 failed. (Lair:8) 13:42:22 -!- Chousuke has joined ##crawl-dev 13:43:29 Chousuke: hey, could you report your crash on mantis? https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/ 13:43:42 sure. 13:43:46 It's very reproducible :P 13:44:03 !lm chousuke crash -log 13:44:04 4. Chousuke, XL15 SpVM, T:52742 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/Chousuke/crash-Chousuke-20110519-184202.txt 13:45:15 ah, something to do with the new cloud targeting? 13:45:32 possibly 13:46:16 MarvinPA: merge octopodes into trunk :D 13:46:18 if you could back up your save from the advanced options menu and link to it in the bug report that should help too 13:46:36 Eronarn: maybe after the tourney :P 13:46:41 It crashes when I try to cast poison cloud on a bunch of animals in a tree-filled area to the left from the stairs 13:46:51 it doesn't crash when no animals are in sight though 13:48:06 Chousuke: you didn't target the animals, you picked a place out of the map 13:48:07 03kilobyte * ra13be5be0e2a 10/crawl-ref/source/target.cc: Fix an information leak and a crash on targetting a place out of bounds. 13:48:55 kilobyte: I didn't pick anything, all I did was press "i" to select the spell :) 13:49:13 does that fix the bug then? Do I need to report it anymore? :P 13:49:22 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-174-ga13be5b (32) 13:50:15 at least the last one Gretell reported 13:50:30 looks like it works now :P 13:50:35 cool :) 13:50:41 quick work. Thanks 13:55:52 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 13:58:35 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5-dev] 14:09:08 Omrii the Earth Mage (L18 DDEE) ASSERT(env.cloud_no == 0) in 'abyss.cc' at line 1046 failed on turn 59041. (Abyss) 14:11:25 Medar (L17 MfBe) (D:18) 14:20:33 i've been playing brogue lately 14:20:40 two things i really like about it: 14:21:02 1) everywhere on the level is reachable with secret doors/passages, even though there's water/lava/etc., it just takes more time if you have no way of crossing it (there is a food clock) 14:21:42 2) they have 'dense foliage', which blocks LOS; if you walk over it, it gets crushed underfoot, but springs back some time later 14:21:49 very nifty 14:23:29 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 14:24:42 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Client Quit] 14:26:54 Eronarn: is it annoying to try to find all the secret doors and passages? 14:33:20 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 14:42:46 no 14:44:37 secret doors are mostly annoying in Crawl due to the large levels, and lack of clues as to where to look 14:45:01 -!- ion has joined ##crawl-dev 14:45:19 in NetHack, for instance, they're a bit less annoying because the level generator is somewhat predictable, so you have ideas of where they're most likely to be, and because the levels are very small and you can see where you are relative to the edge of the level, so know which directions might have them 14:46:01 ah, I have little experience with other roguelikes 14:46:59 Eronarn: how does brogue make its secret doors interesting? 14:48:46 secret doors are bad mostly in Crawl just because the entire premise of the game is designed about making them uninteresting 14:49:07 what might work better, for instance, would be a visible secret door, where what was secret was not the door's presence but how to open it 14:49:27 so you knew you had to stand there and press 5, and then after 50 turns or so, less with high T&D, it would open 14:49:44 and that now has combat applications, as you have to clear the room you're in before moving on, as the monsters will otherwise interrupt the search 14:50:04 sounds more like a locked door to me :) 14:51:24 I remember reading proposals for introducing locked doors to Vaults, and only putting downward staircases behind locked doors 14:51:53 ghallberg: that would more or less be the idea, except characters would have virtual constant lockpicks 14:52:00 maybe it's a combination lock 14:52:22 hmm 14:52:30 ais523: You have the tools to remove traps so why not lockpicks? :) 14:52:33 it would succeed at keeping felids out, at least :P 14:53:00 how do felids disarm traps, even 14:53:01 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:53:19 what if you had to cast magic on a door to open it? non-casters could smash it open, or use a wand or something. 14:53:32 Chousuke: that might work for a wizlab 14:54:00 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 14:54:49 locked wooden doors might be cool, if by smashing them down you removed the ability to use it to aid an escape 14:55:42 or they could be trapped 14:57:26 it would be nice to make T&D more relevant 14:57:57 in brogue the secret doors are somewhat easier to predict 15:00:44 trapped doors wouldn't be that hard to implement, right? might take a stab at that... 15:01:32 Atma (L2 KeMo) (D:1) 15:08:30 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:32 ArcturusFats (L12 MuNe) (Lair:5) 15:23:22 there should be a range of different sorts of locked doors, really, which are more or less of an obstacle for different characters 15:23:43 locked doors would fit Crawl so much better than secret doors, as long as they didn't devolve into find-the-key subquests 15:33:14 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:33:56 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:07 tetris entry vault missing one piece (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4016) by Chamrin 15:36:56 -!- nonsensical has joined ##crawl-dev 15:36:59 a tetris entry vault? have you purchased a license? 15:37:07 oh that was me 15:37:32 any idea how I can edit my post to make the map used a fixed width font/
 tag?
15:37:36  can't find an edit button :(
15:38:58  done
15:39:09  thank you :)
15:39:28  hope it's a reasonable submission, my first one
15:39:42  oh, the lack of fixed width was why it looked wrong
15:41:08  how did you even notice that the piece was missing in the first place?!
15:41:25  that's some observational ability straight out of cable tv
15:43:46  slightly obsessive compulsive?
15:45:09  probably easier to see in the tiles version too though
15:46:20 -!- syllogism has quit []
15:46:27  again it happened. now of the 5 times I've been in abyss without a rune, 3 of them I've found a rune before abyss. since the tourney started. I was noticing this behaviour before tourney too
15:47:59  casmith789: I'm not sure what you mean by that
15:48:11  rune before a gate
15:48:12  sorry
15:49:40  ??abyssal rune
15:49:44  abyssal rune[1/3]: The longer you are in the abyss without leaving, the greater the odds of the rune being generated. If you're a Lugonu worshipper with at least *****, your odds are much better. Generation odds are maximized after 8260 turns (1990 for lugonite). The player may only have one abyssal rune, but another will be generated if the first is somehow lost.
15:50:46  Has anyone managed to start with Lugonu and get a rune at XL 1? :-)
15:51:38  I know that currently the abyss that AKs are in at first doesn't generate a rune, but I don't know if that's always been the case
15:51:56  ion: yes, using abandonment
15:51:56  !lm * rune=abyssal min=xl
15:51:56  1966. [2008-07-27] syllogism the Skirmisher (L1 SpCK) found an abyssal rune of Zot on turn 109. (Abyss)
15:52:17  ion: I have done so at least three times, locally
15:52:29  in all three cases, I subsequently died on D:1
15:52:31  hehe
15:52:40  which says something about the relative danger levels of D:1 and the Abyss
15:52:42  !lm * rune=abyssal min=xl x=v
15:52:49  1966. [2008-07-27] [v=0.4.1] syllogism the Skirmisher (L1 SpCK) found an abyssal rune of Zot on turn 109. (Abyss)
15:53:02  !lm * rune=abyssal xl=1 s=v
15:53:03  3 milestones for * (rune=abyssal xl=1): 1x 0.4.1, 1x 0.4.5, 1x 0.5.2
15:53:20  !lm * rune=abyssal xl<5 s=v
15:53:20  7 milestones for * (rune=abyssal xl<5): 2x 0.5.1, 1x 0.5.2, 1x 0.4.5, 1x 0.4.1, 1x 0.6.0, 1x 0.6.0-a1
15:53:22  !lm * rune=abyssal min=xl -tv
15:53:23  1966. syllogism, XL1 SpCK, T:109 (milestone) requested for FooTV.
15:54:53  !lm * rune=abyssal min=turns
15:54:54  1966. [2009-03-13] Mayhem the Skirmisher (L1 SpCK) found an abyssal rune of Zot on turn 64. (Abyss)
16:08:22 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection timed out]
16:09:16 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev
16:49:53 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev
16:50:03 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection timed out]
16:50:37 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev
16:55:09 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:57:22 -!- jld has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
16:58:18 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev
17:03:55 -!- plaidman has quit [Quit: Page closed]
17:12:38 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev
17:12:45  ??felid
17:12:45  felid[1/4]: A cat race that can't use armour, weapons, wands or rods, and can't throw anything. They gain {extra lives} as they level up. They have claws, fangs, and fur. They cover ground quickly, see invisible, are carnivorous and have slow metabolism.
17:13:24  !learn add felid http://buttersafe.com/2011/05/19/even-more-robot-cat/
17:13:24  felid[5/5]: http://buttersafe.com/2011/05/19/even-more-robot-cat/
17:17:09 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev
17:19:00 -!- plaidman has joined ##crawl-dev
17:19:14 -!- plaidman has quit [Changing host]
17:19:14 -!- plaidman has joined ##crawl-dev
17:26:43  Autotravel refuses to cross traps that don't otherwise give warnings (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4017) by rriegs
17:32:13 -!- jld has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
17:33:05 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev
17:37:47 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:38:13 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev
17:45:00 -!- plaidman has quit [Quit: Page closed]
17:48:18 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
18:12:41 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
18:17:16 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]]
18:18:20  03galehar * r42ef9c513616 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Fix check_for_interesting_features sometimes not being called (#4001).
18:18:31  03galehar * rf1f651d37f36 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): Standardize the levitation checks.
18:18:31  03galehar * ra8a484869348 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Fix inconsistent paralysis duration when hasted.
18:33:21 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:33:49 -!- schoolanim is now known as cww_eviltwin
18:45:13 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
19:12:39  !learn edit bad_ideas[203] s/.*/Statue species: blink to get around. Start with Apportation memorized and the book of Spatial Translocations lying at the edge of LOS./
19:12:40  bad ideas[203/3159]: Statue species: blink to get around. Start with Apportation memorized and the book of Spatial Translocations lying at the edge of LOS.
19:18:38  !learn edit bad_ideas[203] s/.*/Statue species: blink to get around. Start with Apportation memorized, the book of Spatial Translocations lying one tile away and scrolls of noise to attract monsters until you get to XL2./
19:18:40  bad ideas[203/3159]: Statue species: blink to get around. Start with Apportation memorized, the book of Spatial Translocations lying one tile away and scrolls of noise to attract monsters until you get to XL2.
19:20:06  ortoslon: Please do that in PM or ##crawl.
19:20:47  i can't edit learndb in PM but okay i'll do that in ##crawl
19:33:41 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.]
20:12:47 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev
20:13:49 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev
20:20:25 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
20:20:58 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev
21:02:50 -!- cww_eviltwin is now known as ophanim
21:18:44 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev
21:23:37 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection timed out]
21:24:19 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev
21:32:24 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:33:52 -!- ophanim has joined ##crawl-dev
22:39:11  lingerstink (L14 DSNe)  (D:16)
22:42:43  trog should be nerfed
22:42:55  maybe make berserk the same speed as haste
22:47:01  maybe the speed of berserk (and hp bonus too?) should scale with trog piety, which would keep it useful in the endgame while being less broken in the early game
22:47:57  would also be a disincentive to just spam bia at every opportunity
22:51:16  but trog is supposed to be easy early and hard later
22:56:34  st: this wouldn't change that, trog would still be hard later. in the late game, there are almost always better options than berserking, and a 1.5x speed boost in the early game would still be fairly easy, since in the early game mostly you rely on the strength boost to kill and the hp boost to survive
22:57:25  actually I use berserk a lot in the lategame
22:57:56  I'm not saying it's not useful, only that not having access to your wands and potions and scrolls can be pretty debilitating
22:58:00  !lg .
22:58:00  196. Wensley the Ducker (L1 MiWz), slain by a worm on D:1 on 2011-05-18, with 20 points after 83 turns and 0:00:52.
22:58:12  well, there's a spbe somewhere who died for zerking at the wrong time
22:58:22  you can just run away as a spbe
22:59:28  I was blocked in by a stone giant, an ancient lich, a shadow dragon, a tentacled monstrosity, and a yaktaur. it was my fault, I should have kept on not berserking
23:04:13  I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that the value of berserking in the early game is as a panic button when it's probably the only option you have to not die, whereas in the late game it's just one of many tools you've accumulated to not be killed, except that it's mutually exclusive with all your other panic buttons, which is why I'd hate to see an endgame berserker get only 1.5x speed
23:04:54  other chars have no panic buttons that their god gives them early game
23:05:16  I see no reason why nerfing the one trog gives is a problem
23:05:28  especially as it got a ridiculous number of buffs in .8
23:05:33  I do agree that berserkers are too easy early game, but I sort of thought that was the idea. wouldn't mind seeing early game get nerfed, which is why I proposed the system that scales with piety
23:05:56  the problem isn't with them being easy early game
23:06:14  the problem is with them being easy period
23:07:11  what would you change?
23:07:35  berserk could maybe use a nerf of some form, but I'd also like to see a BiA nerf and a weapon gift nerf
23:07:42  antimagic was a big buff for their lategame, it's a cool brand though...
23:08:08  with trog you are pretty much guaranteed to get a good weapon by the end of lair
23:08:13  in your chosen class
23:08:53  it takes orc/hive sometime
23:09:17  trog could offer to antimagic brand one of your weapons at max piety
23:09:34  although that doesn't really jibe with his weapon gifts
23:09:34  but really the buff to weapon gifting back in 0.7 or whenever with better base types was overdone
23:11:03  gifting could be less frequent, or the quality/base types of the gifted weapons could scale with fighting skill
23:13:03  or instead of simply dropping a weapon at your feet, he could send a hostile berserk ogre with the weapon in hand
23:13:28  the better the weapon, the harder the fight :P
23:13:58  I'd make gifts a bit less frequent and also get rid of speed brand where it doesn't belong
23:14:37  regardless of berserk I think slow should be what it was before the haste nerf, aswell as going back to hasting it off not being as easy
23:16:31  I feel like the "slow+fast" status light would be even more misleading if slow and haste were asymmetrical
23:17:24  since when does crawl care about symmetry anyway
23:18:10  I'd say crawl cares more about keeping the interface clean and its systems transparent, which I'm guessing is why slow got nerfed the same as haste in the first place
23:18:59  the slow nerf was the thing that made berserkers really broken
23:20:04  yeah, when playing my spbe it felt sort of wrong when berserk would wear off and I'd still murder all the dudes on screen without any issue
23:20:33  spbe + slow is still faster than speed 10
23:21:02  running away is not how trog rolls :P
23:21:06  maybe make "exhausted" count as additional slowing or give it a defense penalty (-EV, -AC, -SH)
23:22:10  actually,  I like the idea of attaching a penalty to exh rather than reverting slow
23:23:39  the status light could have three levels, like glow, that starts high and reduces as your exhaustion wears off, with decreasing penalties at each stage. would also give a better visual indication of how long until you could zerk again
23:25:33  I don't know about reducing your AC or SH, but tanking your EV sounds like a fine effect, and maybe it could have a negative effect on your fighting and weapons skills
23:27:27  reducing ev hurts light armour berserkers without changing things for heavy armour berserkers, seems like it should affect both
23:30:46  we could take the easy way out and just make exhaustion into an anti-heroism (-5 to all fighting skills), which would have the same effect as reducing AC, EV, and SH
23:32:17  that sounds kinda reasonable
23:32:27  worth trying at least
23:33:03  I guess any change to zerk is also a *cr nerf, I have no idea if cr should be nerfed
23:33:29  isn't berserk spell no more?
23:35:46  ortoslon: correct
23:35:58  in trunk?
23:36:01  yes
23:36:12  ... did something else replace it?
23:36:32  although I'm not sure if a straight -5 is really enough to make a difference as an exhaustion penalty, it might need to be larger or scale somehow
23:36:47  Excedrin: not yet, which is why people are rankled
23:37:18  haste and ozo's armour replaced it temporarily
23:37:48  are there even any proposals of what to replace it with?
23:37:52  Making berserk a stupid option to use except when it will kill everything will only make it something no one wants to use when they're in actual danger or have immediate escape options.  As it stands you can zerk and survive a few rounds afterwards.
23:37:55  the DCSSy solution: axe crusaders :P
23:38:12  Wensley: yes
23:38:20  see wiki
23:40:48  I'm sure this was discussed before; why isn't berserk just haste + might?
23:41:14  With the same no spells, no evoking, no item use rules it has now.
23:51:24  not sure what you mean by that exactly
23:52:08  berserk currently functions as old haste + might
23:52:27  do you just mean changing berserk to be the same speed as current haste?
23:53:00  that was suggested but I like having them be different
23:53:01  yes
23:53:29  also changing berserk speed would make monsters with berserk a lot less dangerous, which isn't really needed
23:53:52  It's a difference of 1.5 vs 2?
23:53:57  yes
23:54:43  for nerfing berserk, I'd look into tweaking duration and/or extension
23:55:22  it is fine that the post-berserk slowness isn't as deadly as it used to be, I think... that makes it a more interesting option, as you said earlier
23:55:47  but currently you can get extremely long berserks with trog extending it
23:55:57  Yes, agreed
23:56:57  I don't like the way slow is completely irrelevant on death curses now
23:57:07  I thought trog only extended it for killing spellcasters
23:59:35  what about making trog abilities use invocation, like many other god abilities?  It would scale with level naturally
23:59:54  that would break BiA, at least