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00:18:04 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-118-g49196a3
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01:13:19 <Ashenzari> Can't finish defining macro for F1 (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3952) by nubinia
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02:38:41 <Zaba> moin
02:51:26 <Keskitalo> Good morning!
03:06:57 <Wensley> spells on the memorization screen are primarily sorted by success rate, yes? because on my screen, fire storm with a fair success rate is sitting second from last, sandwiched between summon horrible things (useless) and ice storm (useless)
03:07:09 <Napkin> good morning :)
03:09:49 <Zaba> I think they're sorted by spell level
03:10:44 <monqy> last I checked I thougt they were sorted by success, but I may be wrong
03:11:10 <Wensley> here's an excerpt from my page
03:11:26 <Wensley> H - Summon Ice Beast              Ice/Summoning                 Great       5
03:11:28 <Wensley> I - Chain Lightning               Conjuration/Air               Great       8
03:11:30 <Wensley> J - Animate Dead                  Necromancy                    Very Good   4
03:11:42 <Wensley> so it's not by spell level, unless there's a way to change the sorting
03:11:44 <monqy> so it's inconsistent?
03:11:51 <Wensley> seems to be
03:11:54 <Wensley> filing a bug right now
03:12:12 <Wensley> I'd previously filed another bug about success rates on the I and M screen not matching up, maybe this is somehow related?
03:18:57 <Ashenzari> Spell sorting errors on 'M' screen (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3953) by Wensleydale
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03:22:08 <Napkin> Wensley: use <pre> tag in bug reports ;)
03:23:06 <Wensley> ah, you mean to format the pasted window output in the message body?
03:25:20 <Napkin> yeah
03:30:45 <Napkin> anyone up for helping me test lag on webtiles?
03:34:02 <evilmike> I just started a character on it to see what it was like now, still pretty slow for me, although I'm very far from the server
03:34:51 <evilmike> there's some weirdness where messages show up before the viewport is updated
03:43:12 <Napkin> that probably because of your general delay
03:43:19 <Napkin> what browser did you try, evilmike?
03:43:48 <evilmike> Google Chrome 11.0.696.65
03:43:49 <Napkin> chrome 11 and opera 11 seem to be generally faster than firefox 4
03:43:57 <Napkin> ah, then it should only be the distance
03:44:25 <evilmike> cdo is quite slow for me even if I connect to it via ssh... but I've played full games on it before. Webtiles is a fair bit slower
03:44:44 <evilmike> I just pinged cdo and got 188 ms on it
03:45:13 <Napkin> traceroute to you from the server is cut off at a gateway and last hop is 165
03:45:14 <evilmike> thats actually a lot lower than i used to get
03:45:30 <Napkin> maybe it's better since i switched the isp
03:46:02 <Napkin> anyways, the 10+ seconds lag when using https seems to have been fixed for now
03:46:33 <evilmike> heh, yeah the delay was never more than half a second, I'd say
03:47:15 <Napkin> it was caused in certain circumstances when someone opened the https website
03:47:44 <Napkin> Ben Darnell, a dev of python-tornado gave us a workaround for now: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/python-tornado/zTGoyLC9ZDc/rD8SIj7xkZEJ
03:47:57 <Napkin> which seems to work \o/
04:05:31 <Napkin> i'll stop webtiles and merge http & https again
04:28:55 <Wensley> I think vampire mosquitos might be overused
04:29:10 <Wensley> I feel like they're everywhere, in every branch
04:33:24 <Wensley> according to my chardump, I've killed 74 of them this game, which is second only to vanilla orcs and killer bees
04:39:56 <Wensley> make that 77, now
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05:56:09 <Gretell> denandre (L1 DGSu)  (D:1)
05:59:03 <kilobyte> !lm denandre type=crash -log
05:59:04 <Sequell> 1. denandre, XL1 DGSu, T:58 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.8/denandre/crash-denandre-20110511-105606.txt
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05:59:24 <kilobyte> webtiles
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06:09:38 <galehar> hi
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06:45:15 <DrPraetor> I think removing Crusader is an outright bad idea, myself.  But then, I rather liked Paladins.
06:46:27 <casmith789> the difference between crusaders and paladins is that paladins fulfilled no role except to start with TSO, apart from that they were just fighters. Crusaders are an entirely different background from any other
06:46:28 <Henzell> casmith789: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
06:46:46 <due> ##crawl is that way.
06:47:35 <due> I should just have that phrase on a one-hour repeat.
06:51:15 <galehar> my main grip with Cr is the berserk spell, and the class heavily depends on it.
06:52:10 <galehar> I think Be should be the only ones with a guaranteed renewable source of berserk.
06:52:48 <evilmike> i've played crusaders that hardly ever berserked after reaching lair or so... although that was when they had haste
06:52:50 <DrPraetor> I disagree with that.  Crusaders are *fun*.  We shouldn't remove them just to make another class more unique.
06:52:55 <galehar> there's too many source of berserk and the spell is the worst flavour wise.
06:53:10 <kilobyte> galehar: +1
06:53:16 <due> especially as knowing the spell gives you protection from fainint
06:53:18 <due> *fainting
06:53:25 <MarvinPA> it doesn't any more
06:53:30 <due> oh? good!
06:54:01 <MarvinPA> trog is the only source of protection from passing out now, which i think helps
06:54:14 <MarvinPA> oh and having the berserkitis mutation i think
06:54:15 <kilobyte> Cr are not terrible, but you'd have to come up with a viable replacement for the Berserk spell which I agree should go the way of the dodo.
06:54:16 <evilmike> not amulets of rage any more?
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06:54:40 <galehar> no, amulet can stay
06:54:52 <MarvinPA> evilmike: no, they don't protect from it either any more
06:54:56 <galehar> it's not guaranteed for anyone
06:55:16 <kilobyte> some folks could scum for a D:1 amulet of rage, though
06:55:17 <due> replacement for Berserk spell++.
06:55:45 <evilmike> ozocubu's armour would work well for that, if you dont mind overlap with ice elementalists
06:56:21 <MarvinPA> well the point of berserk rage is that it's their main offensive tool
06:57:22 <galehar> replacing it isn't easy. We have to come up with a new spell, or completely redesign the book.
06:58:03 <galehar> that's why I'm thinking axing Cr would be easier. Then we can start fresh :)
06:58:30 <MarvinPA> the general concept of the book is a good one though
06:58:46 <due> hm
06:58:54 <due> what is the solid, main flavour of a crusader?
06:58:55 <kilobyte> Cr get a weapon, which is quite a good offensive tool
06:59:00 <due> magic-augmented warrior?
06:59:08 <ghallberg> MarvinPA: THe concept got a bit confused when Haste went away I think...
06:59:10 <MarvinPA> due: exactly, yes
06:59:12 <due> a directly offennsive spell is really out of the question.
06:59:21 <due> it needs to be some sort of augmentic spell
06:59:24 <due> *augmenting
07:00:22 <galehar> does it have to be offensive? Couldn't we design it as a warrior with defensive buffs?
07:00:53 <due> hm
07:00:56 <due> well, true
07:00:57 <MarvinPA> the mix of defensive and offensive seems more interesting to me
07:01:30 <DrPraetor> If the brand spells were more offensively powerful, or had higher level, more offensively powerful versions, this would be a start.
07:01:46 <due> the brand spells are plenty powerful
07:01:56 <due> freezing aura makes mince-meat of most cold-blooded monsters
07:01:56 <ghallberg> Yep, they are nice.
07:02:05 <DrPraetor> So do a freezing weapon, though.
07:02:06 <due> fire brand = hydra mincemeat
07:02:09 <due> so?
07:02:26 <MarvinPA> crusaders get early flexibility from the brands, that's another fairly important part i think
07:02:27 <DrPraetor> So, they're not enough offensively to keep a class together.
07:02:45 <ghallberg> Yeah the problem is that after a while you get a branded weapon and all the brands become useless.
07:02:49 <DrPraetor> Which is nice but, as I said, hardly the offensive equivalent to berserk.
07:02:50 <due> oh, i misread. i thoguht you meant we should buff them as they were weak.
07:02:54 <MarvinPA> sure but they're level 2 spells
07:03:05 <due> ghallberg: xl 2 spell that works on any weapon.
07:03:07 <MarvinPA> even by lair you probably won't have a good flaming weapon and a good freezing weapon
07:03:10 <evilmike> being able to switch brands at will is great, and you're guaranteed it as a starting spell, which gives you +25% damage as soon as you can cast it reliably
07:03:13 <evilmike> its a pretty big deal
07:03:17 <DrPraetor> No, no, I was suggesting a level 4 spell, "super fire brand", that... I dunno... makes the weapon explode with fireballs or something.
07:03:26 <ghallberg> due: I know the spells are good, but I don't think they are enough of an offensive abiliy.
07:03:28 <DrPraetor> At level 5 it's a pretty big deal.
07:03:42 <DrPraetor> Hell, even at level 11 maybe.
07:03:48 <due> i'd be loath to add "suped" up brand spells
07:03:55 <due> too repeitive, really
07:04:04 <DrPraetor> Too similar to Conjurers.
07:04:08 <due> and it would have a cheapening effect ( see rmsl v dmsl from 0.7, etc)
07:04:37 <DrPraetor> Well, DMSL is a *lot* harder to cast.  If superbrand were level 6, only Crusaders, and *foo* elementalists, would ever cast it.
07:04:40 <due> ??sure blade
07:04:42 <Henzell> sure blade[1/3]: Spell that gives much higher to-hit but only works with short blades. Very useful, provided you're using short blades.
07:04:57 <ghallberg> If we let the brand spells overwrite the permabrand of a weapon while it's active you could have a good enchanted weapon and switch brands when necessary, is that too good?
07:05:12 <due> ghallberg: i was thinking that, tobe honest. i'm unsure.
07:05:15 <DrPraetor> ghallberg: No, it isn't, although it'd be a major pain to code.
07:05:21 <due> DrPraetor: not at all
07:05:23 <kilobyte> DrPraetor: not only a lot harder, but also has a small fraction of the duration
07:05:35 <due> in faact
07:05:38 <due> it is *already* coded
07:05:45 <MarvinPA> that doesn't affect early on which is the only time background matters, anyway
07:05:46 <DrPraetor> *facepalm*
07:05:51 <DrPraetor> Okay, well, yeah, that's a start.
07:06:03 <kilobyte> due: yeah, just a matter of disabling the timeout
07:06:03 <due> I think, hm.
07:06:03 <MarvinPA> so worrying about high level spells is somewhat irrelevant to the crusader book itself, at least
07:06:05 <evilmike> if you add that, make sure people can't cast freezing aura on a distortion weapon to unwield it for free
07:06:07 <due> yeah
07:06:18 <due> evilmike: yes, true
07:06:27 <DrPraetor> But it really doesn't hold the class together without berserk.  I should say - I *like* having a caster who can berserk.  Berserk is a fun mechanic, restricting it to Troggers, I don't like.
07:06:35 <due> i'm pretty sure i made significant changes to the brand spells for the rangecombat overhaul
07:06:53 <due> DrPraetor: extending any one, interesting thing to multiple points is bad
07:07:01 <ghallberg> DrPraetor: If it isn't restricted to Troggers, zerker background becomes knida pointless?
07:07:15 <casmith789> Cr and Be play very differently
07:07:17 <due> i much prefer the re-limiting and making unique things "unique" and more interesting.
07:07:21 <DrPraetor> I agree that Crusaders are basically better than Berserkers, over all.
07:07:26 <casmith789> What
07:07:32 <due> What? God, no.
07:07:35 <due> BiA.
07:07:43 <DrPraetor> Well, YMMV.
07:07:50 <due> ??crusader
07:07:51 <Henzell> crusader[1/1]: A character build loosely based around melee combat and charms such as silence and haste. Starts with a {book of War Chants}, a selected weapon, and skill in Charms.
07:07:56 <ghallberg> due: Hmm yeah...
07:07:58 <due> ??book of war chants
07:07:59 <Henzell> book of war chants[1/1]: Fire Brand, Freezing Aura, Repel Missiles, Berserker Rage, Regeneration, and Haste.  A game-changing find for any early-to-midgame hybrid, mostly because of the fourth spell.  Crusaders start with it, which easily explains their popularity. In 0.8, Haste is replaced by Silence.
07:08:18 <ghallberg> due: But then you could just be a fighter and pick up Trog later? Zerking is the starting bonus for Zerkers.
07:08:19 <casmith789> Berserkers start with trog. That is a major difference. Trog has berserk, sure, but it isn't the only thing he does.
07:08:28 <due> To be honest, though, their spellbookis basically "Trog!"-- he gifts weapons withbrands, berserk, andregeneration.
07:08:29 <ghallberg> oh well
07:08:38 <galehar> btw
07:08:39 <galehar> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:background:crusader
07:08:42 <due> (And my space bar key is hororibly broken, sorry.)
07:08:55 <kilobyte> they could even get Haste back, it got heavily hit
07:09:28 <DrPraetor> But anyway, you have a fun class, which is interesting to play, and you want to nerf it for two reasons: 1) some distinction we want to make between what "should" be in hexes vs. charms and 2) b/c we don't want them to have berserk, even though it is fun for them to have.
07:09:35 <DrPraetor> I just don't like the whole plan.
07:09:52 <DrPraetor> We should come up with a fun replacement for berserk *first* (if that's what we're going to do), and move from there.
07:09:59 <kilobyte> anyway, is there any reason to NOT remove the Berserk spell right now and continue this discussion without it?
07:10:10 <casmith789> I am shocked that crusader is seriously being discussed to be removed
07:10:13 <DrPraetor> kilobyte: yes, it ruins the fun and interesting crusader class.
07:10:17 <galehar> kilobyte: it would break Cr
07:10:27 <DrPraetor> Sorry, background.
07:10:31 <due> would it actually break Cr?
07:10:34 <evilmike> no
07:10:40 <galehar> let's try :)
07:10:40 <kilobyte> my deletion button is itchy, and with due being a halfling-fancier...
07:10:41 <due> i'd be interesting to see what it would be like on CDO for a litle while.
07:10:51 <MarvinPA> i'm pretty sure most decent crusaders could manage just fine with the current book minus berserk
07:11:00 <due> we can always re-instate if absolutely necessary -- just take berserk out of the starting book?
07:11:05 <MarvinPA> it'd certainly be ideal to think of a new spell to replace it but yeah
07:11:07 <galehar> give them back haste to make up for it
07:11:10 <evilmike> It's quite possible to play a crusader without berserk... it would be a weak combo without any replacement though
07:11:22 <kilobyte> ozocubu's armour or haste if we feel like being nice
07:11:27 <MarvinPA> also i'm not keen on them having haste
07:11:35 <MarvinPA> since it's still a level 6 spell every caster wants
07:11:39 <DrPraetor> Haste is in a zillion books anyway.
07:11:40 <casmith789> crusaders would have the brand spells which become completely useless by d:5 and repel missiles. And if you want that, go wizard
07:11:53 <kilobyte> evilmike: as in, a meleer with very slightly reduced initial skills but spells instead?
07:11:58 <due> casmith789: what?
07:12:07 <galehar> brand spells last longer than D:5
07:12:09 <DrPraetor> The brand spells are a bit better than casmith789 makes out, but overall, yeah.
07:12:21 <due> casmith789: go read the scroll backk; brand spells are *not* useless by D:5--maybe by D:20, after Lair/Swamp.
07:12:21 <DrPraetor> Brand spells vs. blink and meph cloud?  No contest.
07:12:29 <ghallberg> galehar: They last longer, but only for a little but of versatility, not added punch.
07:12:46 <MarvinPA> 25% damage is a pretty decent amount of added punch
07:12:52 <casmith789> I could read the scroll back or I could delve into my own experience. Unless they were seriously buffed in .9 they are pretty useless
07:12:56 <kilobyte> yeah, I agree with that.  Straight out removing Berserk with nothing in return would be weak.
07:12:58 <galehar> For a L2 spell they last long enough
07:13:11 <due> casmith789: "You aren't doing it right".
07:13:12 <casmith789> just because the fact weapons of freezing exist
07:14:34 <DrPraetor> Crusaders could get a designate spell.  You cast it on an enemy, and as long as you keep attacking that foe, you get significant bonuses.  If you change targets or if they get away, you suffer a penalty.  So strategically it'd have something in common with zerk.
07:14:45 <DrPraetor> Of course, this really sounds more like a hex than a charm.
07:14:57 <due> I like a "Blade Meld" or "Weapon Meld" spell.
07:15:09 <DrPraetor> Like Sure Blade, you mean?
07:15:16 <due> Kinda.
07:15:32 <due> "During the effect of this spell, it is difficult to tell where your weapon stops and you begin."
07:15:37 <casmith789> Crusaders should definitely get sure blade
07:15:39 <due> Or "where you stop and the weapon begins".
07:15:53 <kilobyte> casmith789: shrot blade only
07:15:57 <casmith789> the spell doesn't belong in the enchanter book at all and it actually fits their flavour.
07:16:08 <DrPraetor> I dunno, *now* the Crusader is trampling on Okawaru's "schtick".
07:16:24 <DrPraetor> We're going to take away that spell that makes you Berserk, to add mroe spells that make you good-at-fighting?
07:16:34 <kilobyte> DrPraetor: theme
07:16:38 <casmith789> well berserk makes you good at fighting
07:16:44 <kilobyte> DrPraetor: berserk and spells shouldn't mix
07:16:56 <casmith789> kilobyte: why not?
07:16:57 <due> I was thinking of just a straight -- very small -- slaying bonus.
07:17:01 <due> I'm trying to decide if that's too powerful.
07:17:06 <ghallberg> Also, Oka makes you good at EVERYTHING.
07:17:09 <kilobyte> what about an obsidian axe like spell?
07:17:10 <ghallberg> With heroism?
07:17:13 <DrPraetor> kilobyte: See, I disagree with this 100%.  Berserk and Silence *should* mix with spells.
07:17:16 <due> ??obsidian axe
07:17:17 <Henzell> obsidian axe[1/1]: A +12, +15 broad axe of chopping that mesmerises you whenever a monster is in sight. +3 Str, SInv, always recurses, sometimes summons a friendly demon (2, 3 or 4) when you kill stuff. Also cures confusion when you're mesmerised.
07:17:25 <DrPraetor> It's good to have spells that are hard to use with other spells.  It's not bad, it's good.
07:17:31 <casmith789> obsidian axe imo is just a cool unrandart
07:17:33 <Ashenzari> v0.8 windows 2000 msvcrt.dll (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3954) by NnN
07:17:51 <casmith789> but not something that should be emulated
07:18:05 <kilobyte> perhaps not full mesmerisation, but penalties like DrPraetor said
07:18:06 <DrPraetor> That'd be a legitimate Charm.  The spell is called "Focus", you cast it on an enemy, it Mesmerizes you.
07:18:26 <kilobyte> yeah
07:18:30 <DrPraetor> Or even, you don't cast it on an enemy.  You mesmerized by a random enemy in LOS.
07:18:32 <due> it's workable
07:18:33 <MarvinPA> something like that sounds interesting, a toned-down version but with the same sort of concept
07:18:35 <DrPraetor> So you have to be very careful when casting it.
07:18:46 <due> no, that's too useless
07:18:46 <evilmike> or a slaying bonus vs that enemy and a penalty vs others
07:18:54 <DrPraetor> I don't see any reason to tone it down.  Make it full mezmerism, and make the bonus frickin' large.
07:18:56 <due> confer  giant bat
07:18:56 <evilmike> if you "focus" on an enemy you can still easily attack other enemies
07:19:16 <casmith789> mesmerise yourself and increase damage. Like berserk but you can still cast spells, I guess
07:19:16 <due> it would be good to extend sure blade to other weapons.
07:19:45 <evilmike> if you just mesmerise yourself for a damage bonus, you'd be able to do silly things like cast it on a rat that's behind you, and attack things in front of you
07:19:45 <DrPraetor> I still think it's more fun to have berserk.
07:19:46 <due> anyway, to bed, night!
07:19:52 <MarvinPA> sure blade doesn't have a downside though (other than "you can only cast it on short blades")
07:20:08 <casmith789> that's a pretty big downside
07:20:12 <DrPraetor> evilmike: No, no.  While the spell is up, you get a damage bonus only against the thing that's mezmerizing you.
07:20:14 <casmith789> also its massively short duration for 2mp
07:20:26 <MarvinPA> casmith789: right, that's why i'm not keen on it being extended to other weapon types :P
07:20:28 <DrPraetor> MarvinPA: So make the damage bonus really big.
07:20:36 <casmith789> yeah sure blade is great
07:20:57 <casmith789> problem is you never get it on anything that can use it so it is never used
07:21:08 <MarvinPA> what? it's amazing on En
07:21:15 <casmith789> if you played an En without stabbing sure
07:21:20 <kilobyte> what about: any action other than walking in the direction of enemy X and throwing stuff that way has a large chance of failing.  If the monster switches places with someone you get to kill the person between you as long as that's needed to get there.
07:21:51 <MarvinPA> casmith789: uh, invis stabs
07:21:57 <MarvinPA> (on awake things)
07:22:03 <casmith789> that sounds overcomplicated
07:22:16 <DrPraetor> That said, I still think there should be a second tier of super brand spells.  Maybe you can only cast them if the weapon is already branded?
07:22:18 <casmith789> MarvinPA: so this L2 spell becomes half decent for En when they are at xl12
07:22:33 <MarvinPA> not really, it also gives you an edge early on as En if you can't get past MR on something
07:22:35 <ghallberg> DrPraetor: Sounds annoying.
07:23:01 <casmith789> problem is En aren't a melee/stabbing hybrid. It doesn't fit their flavour at all
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07:23:46 <DrPraetor> Enhance Brand: Charms 5.  Flaming brands leave fire clouds, ice brands have a chance to paralyze, lightning brands chain lightning instead of just showering sparks, drain and holy brands just do more damage, you get the idea.
07:24:11 <DrPraetor> It's a nice combo with the lvl 2 brand spell, because then you can switch brands on your nice weapon followed by casting this.  And at least two brands are effectively guaranteed.
07:24:41 <DrPraetor> Finally, for the name, Crusaders drop Regeneration and have the option of starting out worshipping the TSO, or having +1/+1 on their weapon.
07:24:53 <bmh> should I do any more work on my xom_monty_hall overflow altar?
07:25:19 <MarvinPA> buffs with no downside don't make for particularly interesting spells, adding more on top of the existing, hard-to-balance ones doesn't sound great
07:25:39 <DrPraetor> MarvinPA: I agree, so they should keep zerk, which has a downside.
07:25:52 <MarvinPA> alternatively, no
07:26:30 <DrPraetor> Anyway, super brands could have a downside, if all of them sometimes explode and hit you.
07:26:39 <casmith789> [13:24] <DrPraetor> Finally, for the name, Crusaders drop Regeneration and have the option of starting out worshipping the TSO <-- Please don't make crusaders paladins.
07:26:50 <RjY> crusader is a funny word to begin with for a magic-using warrior, i mean the crusades were religious wars, right, so crusaders you'd expect to be more like a TSO thing, i.e. a paladin
07:27:30 <bmh> gish?
07:27:45 <ghallberg> Yeah, gish, Mage-knight...
07:27:56 <DrPraetor> ??warrior mage
07:27:58 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled warrior_mage in my learndb.
07:28:02 <RjY> same to you :P wait, that's a word?
07:28:16 <DrPraetor> I agree that Crusader is a cool-sounding word, so we should just keep it.
07:28:45 <kilobyte> it 100% means a religious background, though
07:29:03 <ghallberg> Yeah, that's odd.
07:29:04 <RjY> oh, it's some d&d thing, no wonder i never heard of it before
07:29:14 <DrPraetor> Although the root of the word is "Cross", yeah.
07:29:18 <DrPraetor> So that's a rough sell.
07:29:30 <kilobyte> unlike, ironically, Paladin (outside D&D, just a high-ranked knight)
07:29:38 <DrPraetor> But it's come-to-mean going ape-shit and killing a bunch of people, which.... ha.
07:29:38 <RjY> "anagrams: sigh." thanks wiktionary
07:29:45 <ghallberg> Crusader doesn't fit, Gish is too D&D.
07:29:55 <DrPraetor> That's a point, we could change the *name* from Crusader to Paladin, and be more anti-D&D than ever before.
07:29:57 <casmith789> Crawl already has quirks in naming. I see no need to switch names just because people haven't started a Crusader yet.
07:30:01 <evilmike> crawl already has kenkus, which are directly lifted from D&D :P
07:30:15 <DrPraetor> I agree we should change that name to Tengu.
07:30:22 <evilmike> lots of other things too, but thats the one I can think of that doesn't exist outside of D&D
07:30:27 <casmith789> and be more nethack?
07:30:29 <kilobyte> Mujihadeen? (*duck*)
07:30:36 <evilmike> haha
07:30:48 <ghallberg> Behlders are copyrighted or sth?
07:30:53 <DrPraetor> Paladin.  The *name* should be Paladin.  Paladins are educated warriors of noble birth, which is why the get spellbooks.
07:31:01 <DrPraetor> Unlike those peasants, the fighters and gladiators.
07:31:03 <kilobyte> casmith789: it's Japanese mythology, not just NetHack
07:31:45 <RjY> yeah aya shimarawhateverhernameis from touhou is a tengu
07:32:44 <bmh> janissary?
07:33:25 <evilmike> wouldn't janissary violate that anachronism rule?
07:33:35 <bmh> Any more than Crusader?
07:34:06 <evilmike> hmm, actually yeah, for some reason I thought they were more modern
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07:38:33 <DrPraetor> Okay, keep it simple.  Enhance Brand (which we should add in-addition-to mezmerize self), for the duartion your brand has a chance of hitting each square adjacent to the square you hit, including yours.
07:39:06 <casmith789> if cr is about stacking brands it will become annoying to play
07:39:25 <DrPraetor> I'm playing a conjurer, I have to cast two spells for each individual thing I kill.
07:39:37 <DrPraetor> Casting two spells for each fight doesn't sound so bad.
07:39:51 <DrPraetor> Also, it'd give crusaders improved crowd-clearance, which is what I've always done with zerk.
07:40:11 <DrPraetor> But then, this is why I seldom play melee characters, except Transmuters who hit so hard it doesn't much matter.
07:43:27 <RjY> two spells?
07:43:27 <ortoslon> i linked my bad_ideas compilation to linley
07:43:36 <ortoslon> he responded, "I like the ettin race"
07:44:12 <kilobyte> most of remaining bad_ideas are not really fit for implementation
07:44:53 <DrPraetor> Losing berserk is a big deal.  If we're going to take away berserk, and also do some kind of further refinement of the Charms/Hexes split, we can give the Lenseman two new spells.
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07:46:24 <MarvinPA> just swapping out berserk rage for ozo's armour and then adding the mesmerisation spell whenever seems pretty much fine to me
07:46:29 <casmith789> ortoslon: heh. I thought that the idea could be balanced correctly, and could be fun to play, but the devteam were/are so adamantly against it and I never particularly wanted to push for it.
07:46:45 <ais523> casmith789: which idea? brand stacking?
07:47:16 <casmith789> is this mesmerisation preventable by clarity? or is it another one of crawl's random inconsistencies
07:47:29 <casmith789> ettin race
07:47:51 <MarvinPA> well it wouldn't need to be flavoured as mesmerisation
07:47:52 <casmith789> brand stacking as I said will be annoying to play
07:47:56 <MarvinPA> could be anything
07:48:17 <casmith789> just something that acts as mesmerisation in every way apart from clarity
07:48:25 <kilobyte> enuf.  Pushing the button.  Please keep talking about a replacement, guys.
07:48:25 <MarvinPA> just the general concept of "focus on one enemy, bonuses for attacking it, penalties for not attacking it"
07:48:48 <MarvinPA> which is similar to mesmerise but seems pretty clearly distinct
07:49:13 <casmith789> on the note of inconsistencies: obsidian axe + clarity
07:49:20 <kilobyte> might be too good in corridors
07:49:48 <ais523> kilobyte: what are you trying to replace? I've come in halfway through the conversation and don't know what people are talking about
07:49:51 <casmith789> berserk
07:49:54 <casmith789> on crusaders
07:49:57 <MarvinPA> the berserk rage spell
07:49:58 <ais523> ah, aha
07:50:25 <MarvinPA> oh that reminds me to remove the teleport self spell for pretty much the same reason, come to think of it
07:50:46 <ais523> so the current main game effects of berserk, are that they make you really good at killing things, but if you fail they kill you, and you can't spam it earlygame because of the nutrition cost
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07:51:31 <ais523> are you looking for a replacement that works like that exactly? or do you want to avoid some aspect of it that made berserk broken in the first place?
07:51:53 <MarvinPA> ais523: right, the problem being solved is mainly: there are too many sources of berserk, the spell is the least interesting of them so it should be removed, but crusaders should get something fairly useful to replace it too
07:52:22 <ais523> ah, so something that's similar to berserk but less universally useful
07:52:34 <ais523> hmm
07:52:45 <casmith789> from my own games the berserk rage spell hardly ever comes up
07:52:58 <casmith789> pretty much only if you start as crusader
07:52:58 <ais523> casmith789: are you glad of it when it does?
07:53:05 <MarvinPA> ideally something with offensive capabilities, but yeah. the current idea being vaguely discussed is along the lines of designating a certain enemy to focus on, and then getting bonuses attacking it but penalties if you try to attack other things
07:53:14 <casmith789> I use it sometimes but not exclusively
07:53:22 <ais523> MarvinPA: that sounds more like a hex than a charm to me
07:53:45 <ais523> gameplay-wise as well as flavour-wise
07:53:59 <MarvinPA> at this point i have pretty much no idea what hexes and charms are supposed to be, gameplay- or flavour-wise :P
07:54:00 <kilobyte> perhaps even a speed boost: moving towards the target takes less time, moving away takes more
07:54:28 <ais523> so the idea there is that it'd be as good as berserk at fighting single strong enemies, but much worse at crowd control?
07:56:12 <kilobyte> MarvinPA: Charms: wards+self-improvements, Hexes: anything that casts a lasting enchantment onto anyone or anything else
07:56:21 <casmith789> what about +2 slaying, double speed when attacking one enemy. If you attack anyone else the effect is lost (and it is also lost over time), 3mp
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07:56:43 <casmith789> so it would be much more expensive than berserk and also worse but you could still run away
07:57:11 <ais523> what about making a spell that teleported you and a single enemy to a tiny arena "off the map", and let you fight them there?
07:57:22 <casmith789> that sounds very tloc
07:57:26 <ais523> and sent you back when you won
07:57:29 <ais523> it would be very tloc
07:57:38 <ais523> but the idea's been proposed before in a range of contexts, I think
07:57:40 <ais523> and might work there
07:58:37 <DrPraetor> We can't do a double nerf on the crusader.  The crusader can lose brands - although I think an alternate formalism, in which the brand spells coat your weapon in *foo* regardless of what you wield, and thus actually enchant you in the same sense as RMSl - is better.
07:58:57 <DrPraetor> OR the crusader can lose berserk.  The suggestion that we take away both - basically deleting the class - is a non-starter.
07:59:04 <kilobyte> too abusable.  Fighting 10 stone giants and a rat?  Arena the rat, sit there drinking potions or just holding '.'.
07:59:18 <DrPraetor> Tloc already lets you do that.
07:59:34 <DrPraetor> You just do it on another level entirely.
07:59:48 <kilobyte> unlike teleport, there is no risk
07:59:57 <RjY> a spell that makes your next weapon swing do double damage
07:59:58 <bmh> big monsters shove little ones out of the way, problem solved?
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08:00:30 <kilobyte> RjY: so you lose 1 turn to gain 1, with no benefits other than losing mana?
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08:00:44 <RjY> all right, quad damage
08:00:55 <Zaba> quad damage already exists
08:01:02 <MarvinPA> would benefit slow weapons more
08:01:18 <kilobyte> Zaba: in one of sprints, and is so hard to get no one bothers except as an extreme show-off
08:01:31 <Zaba> kilobyte, it should generate in the normal game
08:01:33 <Zaba> it's so epic!
08:01:41 <kilobyte> yeah!
08:01:44 <MarvinPA> it's pretty easy to get in sprint 3, but only because sprint 3 is weird and takes hours to finish :P
08:01:51 <Zaba> sneak it in under the flag of misc item overhaul :P
08:02:00 <kilobyte> Zaba: <3
08:02:23 <RjY> along with a unique named Duck Nerfem
08:03:03 <kilobyte> a whole hurd of them, forever
08:04:11 <bmh> there are cases in which a vampire would want to butcher, right?
08:04:25 <kilobyte> bmh: simulacrum
08:04:28 <DrPraetor> Sublimation of blood, simulacrum.
08:04:55 <DrPraetor> Throwing bloody chunks at people, laughing at their look of shock and horror.
08:04:58 <kilobyte> DrPraetor: bottling is better for the former.  Blood lasts longer and weights less.
08:04:59 <bmh> perhaps this is a silly request -- if the player doesn't know either of those spells, could we warn on butcher?
08:05:08 <kilobyte> good idea
08:05:24 <MarvinPA> you get multiple chunks
08:05:26 <DrPraetor> Do you get as many blood potions as you'd get chunks?
08:06:02 <RjY> you should be able to cast simulacrum on a blood potion and get frozen water elementals
08:06:56 <DrPraetor> When you evap a blood potion you should get one of those stupid blood-cloud monsters from D&D.  (a pink v, I suppose).
08:07:14 <bmh> no...
08:07:39 <casmith789> kilobyte: RjY's idea has merit because doing double damage is better than doing single damage twice due to AC
08:07:41 <bmh> it might be reasonable for blood clouds to have a chance to inflict sickness
08:08:07 <DrPraetor> Is sickness any different from poison, from the monsters perspective?
08:08:25 <casmith789> on the other hand that sounds quite annoying to play, again
08:08:42 <bmh> sickness prevents regen, poison reduces HP -- I assume it's handled the same for mobs
08:11:59 <RjY> if you walk into a cloud of blood you get attacked by iron goblins
08:13:22 <Wensley> regarding the crusader/berserk issue, I wonder if there's a way to analyze ttyrecs to see how heavily crusaders lean on berserk in the early game
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08:14:22 <MarvinPA> why would that be necessary?
08:14:37 <Wensley> to have more than just the opinions of high-level players
08:15:27 <MarvinPA> that wouldn't change any of the reasons for removing it (and i think kilobyte already did it, anyway)
08:15:50 <kilobyte> yeah, CIA is sleeping on the job
08:16:00 <MarvinPA> aha
08:16:29 <Wensley> it wouldn't change the reasons for removing it, but it would change the context and also inform the design of a replacement. and it's not like removing something is necessarily final and forever
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08:26:12 <kilobyte> what's the point of petrification reducing only melee damage (by a factor of 3)?
08:26:49 <casmith789> because you can only stab via melee damage
08:27:46 <kilobyte> the monster won't have a chance to respond to your spells or tossed chunks of meat either
08:29:01 <kilobyte> also, player petrification is just a duplication of paralysis -- no way to tell the difference between these two
08:29:27 <MarvinPA> petrification working on the player would be nice
08:29:51 <kilobyte> I'd: 1. apply the /3 to all damage, 2. apply the /3 reduction for players, 3. give players a "petrifying" status too, 4. adjust durations.
08:30:14 <MarvinPA> sounds good
08:30:15 <kilobyte> with /3 damage and time to escape beforehand it's not as deadly
08:30:29 <MarvinPA> although maybe not 1/3 damage to LRD on petrified things
08:30:57 <kilobyte> LRD has a damage boost, I can multiply it by 3
08:31:00 <MarvinPA> alternatively that could just be done by boosting it on lrd's side
08:31:02 <MarvinPA> yeah
08:36:28 <elliptic> I haven't been following the crusader discussion, so maybe this has already been suggested, but perhaps they could be merged/replaced with a new reaver?
08:36:54 <elliptic> there were various reaver book suggestions that people rejected because they were too crusader-y
08:40:38 <kilobyte> there'd be problems with adding yet another two schools
08:44:53 <elliptic> hard to avoid that without too much overlap with some elementalist, maybe
08:45:09 <galehar> it already has melee/charms/hex/fire/ice/air/necro.
08:46:57 <galehar> if you add conjuration, also give it some stabbing and call it a bard
08:47:00 <galehar> :)
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08:48:43 <elliptic> I guess I'm finding it hard to imagine a book beginning with the current L2 spells in war chants that I'll actually like
08:50:10 <elliptic> if a new spell is added where berserk was, then either the new spell will be strong and you'll mainly just be using it without caring about anything else in the book, or the new spell will be weak and the entire book won't be very exciting
08:50:41 <elliptic> this gets worse if regen is ever nerfed/changed to tmut, as is planned
08:52:12 <casmith789> I still don't get what the berserk problem is. Crusaders are pretty unique and the book of war chants is rare enough that berserk isn't that useful for other classes unless found early.
08:53:04 <elliptic> crusaders were all about berserk without being named berserkers
08:55:38 <elliptic> what is the current conjurer plan, by the way? I think MarvinPA has been threatening to remove them for a while?
08:55:54 <casmith789> conjurers as well?
08:56:01 <casmith789> are we going to have 2 races left by the end
08:56:03 <MarvinPA> yeah, i would quite like to remove them
08:56:04 <casmith789> classes*
08:56:14 <casmith789> MarvinPA: easily done. Bring back reaver
08:56:19 <MarvinPA> since they sort of just overlap with the elementalists
08:56:50 <MarvinPA> or at least it'd be nice to give them a different spellbook (with no book choice), but that seems difficult
08:58:03 <galehar> you can control the end point on beam spells by targetting with . (like throwing). Seems wrong to me. Especially with shock and lightning bolt.
08:59:56 <MarvinPA> hm, it'd be sort of annoying if you couldn't though
09:01:58 <OG17> trog berserk has a number of benefits over the spell and I'm not sure why there's a need to get rid of practically berserking in forms
09:02:55 <OG17> giving up your amulet slot is pretty unrealistic for someone doing a statue/dragon gimmick
09:03:35 <MarvinPA> how is it unrealistic to give up an amulet slot in return for absurd levels of unarmed damage
09:03:38 <OG17> and cr doesn't play the same as be in the first place
09:03:55 <OG17> because you're vulnerable as heck and have no gear slots
09:04:42 <elliptic> galehar: I'd say that's a situation where ease of gameplay is much more important than any issue about realism, if that's your concern
09:05:05 <galehar> ok
09:05:06 <MarvinPA> amulets don't tend to be your first line of defence when you're in a form
09:05:20 <galehar> elliptic: have you looked at my HP proposal?
09:05:25 <OG17> when all you have is that and rings it's sort of nice
09:05:30 <MarvinPA> so probably swapping clarity or rMut or conservation in return for crazyhuge damage is pretty much fine
09:05:51 <MarvinPA> making the potion a bit more common was also a reasonable suggestion, i think
09:06:12 <MarvinPA> right now it's rarer than curemut, haha
09:06:50 <elliptic> galehar: I looked at it a little bit and it seemed reasonable
09:07:27 <galehar> elliptic: the latest? Giving frail/robust mutation to all species?
09:07:47 <elliptic> marvinpa: yeah, part of why I liked removing berserk spell was that it might make the amulet and potion more interesting
09:07:51 <elliptic> galehar: yes
09:07:55 <galehar> cool
09:09:32 <OG17> sooner get rid of the amulet and/or potion, berserk already has a bunch of downsides that make it interesting in itself
09:10:20 <galehar> MarvinPA: making the potion of berserk more common sounds good.
09:10:49 <OG17> imagine monsters would get more use from that than players
09:11:19 <MarvinPA> that would also be an advantage of it, yes :)
09:11:25 <galehar> MarvinPA: speaking of potion generation, with the removal of alter self and distilled potions of mutation temporary (todo), we might want to boost cure mut generation a bit.
09:11:46 <MarvinPA> personally i think cure mut generation is fine
09:12:13 <MarvinPA> i think people only ever have problems with mutations because they choose to quaff mutation deliberately
09:12:15 <MarvinPA> or quaff-id it
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09:12:37 <galehar> ok
09:12:38 <OG17> gorging on mutations isn't really a normal way to get rid of bad mutations
09:12:40 <MarvinPA> (at least, most of the time - in my experience, mutations are very rarely an actual worry)
09:13:04 <MarvinPA> no, but some people do it with distillation anyway, since it can/does work
09:13:39 <OG17> I think cure mut is fine too though, since that's scummy and most people don't bother
09:14:56 <MarvinPA> galehar: one simple suggestion i think elliptic made was to make monsters with mutagenic corpses just create corpses far less often
09:15:15 <galehar> if you're really in need of a cure, you can always ask Zin.
09:15:50 <galehar> MarvinPA: sure we can do that. But I like the idea of an unstable potion of mutation that turns into a random bad one after some time.
09:16:09 <MarvinPA> but yeah, having them decay over time also sounds good
09:16:16 <galehar> would also remove the free mut id from Tr and St
09:16:44 <elliptic> making distilled potion of mutation temporary helps with some other potential issues also, yeah... doing both sounds right to me
09:16:57 <elliptic> cure mut generation is fine though
09:17:11 <galehar> ok
09:17:14 <OG17> evap mut clouds still shouldn't be irresistable though
09:18:16 <MarvinPA> that too
09:20:57 <elliptic> here's an idea of what an ice/air-based crusader/reaver book could look like if Cj is removed: throw frost, freezing aura, repel missiles, static discharge, ozo's armour, silence
09:21:34 <elliptic> I have no idea how something like that would play, just a thought
09:22:23 <elliptic> but it only contains charms/conj/ice/air, so having lots of schools isn't such a huge problem
09:23:33 <OG17> ae has a good bit of overlap with that and is already hybrid-friendly
09:23:46 <elliptic> AE has two spells in common with that
09:23:51 <OG17> throw frost is redundant in itself and a brand isn't that interesting if there's only one
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09:23:59 <OG17> style-wise too
09:24:23 <elliptic> why do you say that about brands? having two brands in war chants is one of the things I dislike about it
09:24:40 <elliptic> because people rarely ever learn more than one
09:24:54 <OG17> ideally you'd switch between them as needed
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09:25:09 <galehar> freezing aura is nice to train ice for ozo
09:25:21 <galehar> I like the idea
09:25:24 <OG17> that doesn't work so well because it's just "use ice unless hydra" but that's true for a lot of spells
09:25:43 <OG17> better to give a reason to use more than one brand
09:26:19 <galehar> I say we should remove crusader and give the new book to... Paladin!
09:26:48 <OG17> how is paladin better than crusader
09:27:07 <OG17> not that one's crusade strictly needs to be religious but whatever
09:27:14 <galehar> crusader are religious. The background isn't
09:27:22 <OG17> paladin
09:27:57 <galehar> paladin are divine warriors in d&d, but in RL they were just high ranked knights as said earlier by kilobyte.
09:29:59 <OG17> paladins weren't secular and the modern-day notion of them certainly isn't
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09:35:04 <galehar> sure, knights were christians. But the religious link is not as strong for paladin as for crusader IMHO. Anyway, whatever the name, I still like the book.
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09:37:56 <casmith789> I like elliptic's book. Could use that on reavers
09:38:29 <casmith789> btw, why does Wr start with apportation not memorised?
09:38:51 <elliptic> same reason Tm starts with distillation not memorised
09:38:59 <casmith789> which reason is that?
09:39:10 <casmith789> seems like a bug to me but it's clearly intentional so I didn't BR it
09:39:29 <MarvinPA> it doesn't help them survive at xl1, i guess
09:39:37 <galehar> you might want to skip it?
09:39:51 <elliptic> you won't die if you forget to memorise them before you want to use them
09:39:59 <casmith789> if you are skipping translocations maybe you should play a different class
09:39:59 <elliptic> so the game gives you the option
09:40:09 <elliptic> really I can't imagine not wanting to memorise either one though
09:40:14 <OG17> tm makes sense as far as maybe starting with a good god goes but I don't get wr either
09:40:14 <MarvinPA> elliptic: for that reason i'd say corona shouldn't start memorised :P
09:40:24 <elliptic> hey, I use corona :P
09:40:34 <casmith789> corona is great
09:40:51 <MarvinPA> i'm not saying it isn't, i just never bother using it :P
09:41:13 <casmith789> it's like sure blade for every weapon! and checks mr
09:42:02 <MarvinPA> hm, how common should potions of zerk be? also bah, adjusting this requires tweaking the weights on everything
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09:42:20 <MarvinPA> yay for huge random_choose_weighted lists
09:43:03 <casmith789> make them as common as potions of resistance imo
09:43:30 <galehar> you sure? It says "total weight is NOT 10000"
09:44:08 <MarvinPA> oh right yeah, i was scrolled down and looking at scrolls
09:44:17 <galehar> 340 sounds good
09:44:31 <galehar> I wikified elliptic's proposal for Cr
09:44:51 <elliptic> galehar: thanks :)
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10:14:56 <galehar> any opposition to removing the teleport on die for kitten?
10:15:46 <ghallberg> galehar: I think removing it rturn is it uninto just, more HP...
10:16:11 <galehar> what?
10:16:25 <ghallberg> Sorry, irssi is messing up...
10:16:57 <ghallberg> If the teleport is removed, we might aswell just give felids x2 hitpoints every 3 levels.
10:17:08 <kilobyte> galehar: it would make it look like lifesaving rather than getting a new life
10:17:09 <ghallberg> Or well, note really...
10:17:23 * ghallberg sighs.
10:17:29 <ghallberg> I'm too tired to write.
10:17:39 <kilobyte> I would add corpse retrieval, but this leads to problems in the Abyss and in portal vaults
10:17:41 <ghallberg> Just remove it, I don't play Felids ;)
10:18:13 <Eronarn> could go really nuts and make it be based around time travel ;) if you die, you go back to where you were at the start of the level, with the level reset
10:18:19 <galehar> what do you mean by corpse retrieval?
10:18:43 <ghallberg> kilobyte: Interesting idea...
10:19:06 <kilobyte> if you want your gear back, you have to go to your corpse and the horde of slobbering monsters standing at it and kill them naked
10:19:18 <ghallberg> Maybe something like: When you die, you teleport and drop some of you equipped items?
10:19:35 <ghallberg> kilobyte: I think dropping some of your items is harsh enough.
10:19:36 <Eronarn> i've played MMOs for years
10:19:41 <Eronarn> please never, ever add corpse retrieval to crawl
10:20:26 <kilobyte> Eronarn: MMOs are unplayable with costless deaths
10:20:44 <ghallberg> I still think it adds an interesting tactical dimension to the extra lives.
10:20:48 <galehar> kilobyte: how about you respawn in a blink's range. It is less "lifesaving", but also much less abusable. You're still in trouble.
10:21:01 <kilobyte> galehar: sounds fine
10:21:07 <ghallberg> Yeah, sounds better.
10:21:23 <ghallberg> Just healing to full while standing in place sounds boring.
10:21:36 <casmith789> galehar: like in sprint then
10:21:52 <kilobyte> galehar: although, the problems with lives are not related to penalties for dying.  Increasing them might be good, I'm not opposed to that, but let's wait for the tournament's results.
10:21:59 <kilobyte> they don't solve anything, though
10:22:15 <casmith789> tournament's results wrt what?
10:22:19 <kilobyte> the problem with felids is: too hard for new players, too easy for top ones
10:22:19 <ghallberg> kilobyte: So, what's the problem then?
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10:22:46 <galehar> kilobyte: you mean for winning, right?
10:22:54 <Eronarn> kilobyte: no they're not. warhammer online had no real death penalties and easy resurrection - it was far more fun in that regard than most any other MMO i've played
10:23:02 <kilobyte> if the likes of elliptic routinely run around Pan as an xl 12 spriggan, they can do so as xl 27 felid and not die
10:23:28 <Eronarn> death only needs to have a cost if you want to discourage dying for some reason other than not-being-alive
10:23:32 <galehar> I think the difficulty should be easy in the beginning and very hard in the end. So it allows new player to more easily explore the first half of the game, but it's challenging to win the game with it.
10:23:36 <Eronarn> in crawl, death is (eventually) final
10:23:38 <casmith789> no-one routinely runes around pan as an xl12 spriggan:P
10:23:47 <Eronarn> so it's already something you don't want, even on a felid
10:23:53 <elliptic> I wouldn't call that routine, yes :P
10:23:58 <kilobyte> so indeed additional protection means such top players don't die
10:24:23 <kilobyte> elliptic: multiple times.  I've caught N78291 doing that too.
10:24:34 <kilobyte> not 12 but not much higher
10:24:45 <casmith789> kilobyte: I assume it was mostly going for unique deaths?
10:25:00 <casmith789> dying to mnoleg etc
10:25:08 <galehar> kilobyte: I also suggested draining 1 XL on dying.
10:25:14 <Eronarn> why
10:25:28 <casmith789> to give dying a cost presumably
10:25:37 <galehar> yes
10:25:50 <galehar> so even if you still have many lives left, you'll try not to lose 1.
10:25:57 <casmith789> can we base felids on the no armour/wands mechanic which is a lot more interesting
10:26:02 <kilobyte> casmith789: it already has a cost: a life.
10:26:20 <casmith789> sure but "a life" is basically an improved heal wounds + instant teleport
10:26:41 <kilobyte> galehar: sounds like a good idea then.  I considered mostly the draining of a finite resource, but such a short-term loss can be good too.
10:26:44 <casmith789> As a felid I deliberately don't use escape items sometimes because I can just die and be safe
10:27:10 <Eronarn> galehar: the only case in which you don't care about dying is that you're far enough along in the game that you also don't care about losing an XL
10:27:23 <kilobyte> casmith789: uhm... that's not a sane strategy.  A pile of escape items is something you can easily get back, a life not really.
10:27:39 <casmith789> nope, they're all resources, may as well use them
10:27:54 <casmith789> if you're probably going to die after quaffing the heal wounds potion may as well not quaff it and keep it for the next life
10:28:04 <kilobyte> so you want to lose an expensive resource to conserve cheap ones?
10:28:13 <casmith789> not to mention felids get extra lives which I don't even use
10:28:28 <casmith789> I get stuck at 2 lives so I may as well burn them now instead of keep them
10:28:47 <casmith789> I lose an expensive resource to conserve cheap ones that might not work
10:28:48 <Eronarn> yeah, the rolling extra life thing is really weird
10:29:06 <Eronarn> ps, someone go implement felid moulting :)
10:29:16 <kilobyte> hairballs :p
10:31:21 <Eronarn> it works like this: you start as a kitten, and every time you die, you're reborn as a larger cat, until you're a fearsome beast the size of an elephant on your last life
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10:34:42 <ais523> kilobyte: your statement about losing a life to preserve escape items being insane isn't really correct; there are other roguelikes based around the mechanic of balancing escape items
10:35:14 <ais523> and sometimes you deliberately use a really good escape, like an autotriggering lifesaving + full everything restore, deliberately, as it's a better time to use it than other items that might be less suited
10:37:54 <kilobyte> Eronarn: and what's the point in THAT?  We want to discourage dying, not reward it.
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10:38:11 <kilobyte> I think changing the formula for when you get extra lives might be good, though
10:38:14 <Eronarn> kilobyte: bigger != better
10:38:44 <kilobyte> that's something for a different race
10:38:51 <kilobyte> like that Fiend proposal
10:38:55 <Zaba> kilobyte, hm, regarding misc item overhaul, should also turn flight, haste, invisibility and regeneration from spells to evokable artefacts.
10:39:02 <Zaba> for a good measure
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10:39:44 <Eronarn> kilobyte: originally it was the idea for the insectoid race, but when i thought about it, i realized it would be immensely cool to tie it into felid lives
10:40:52 <galehar> I've just done the tables for Felid for the HP proposal (with frail4): https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AqvhLOPFHpiMdHFJd3h1NTVlU0ZqREVrWEk5SVAzU2c&authkey=CNSFv_8J&hl=en#gid=5
10:41:50 <Eronarn> it lets you feel via gameplay what life you are on - because they'd have different enough stats that the kitten would play like a totally different race than the lion
10:42:27 <Eronarn> it lets you introduce people to the gimmick naturally, since kitten form would be very weak, so it would be expected you'd die within a few XLs
10:43:05 <Eronarn> and it lets you have multiple aspects of cathood - so 'sabertooth', or chopping hydra heads, doesn't seem ridiculous
10:43:11 <Eronarn> as long as it only happens on larger cats
10:43:39 <Eronarn> and on the other hand, the larger cats do not meow, but roar instead
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11:06:45 <kilobyte> Eronarn: getting splattered does not exactly promote growth.  Your new body would be younger/weaker (so losing a level fits) if it is to be different.
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11:09:15 <kilobyte> by the way, the Fiend proposal is: you start as a spriggan-sized imp, growing a size category at levels 3, 8, 15, 21, 27, reaching a cyberdemon's stature
11:10:23 <DrPraetor> crystal balls aren't wielded anymore, "_You are wielding a crystal ball of energy." needs to be fixed.
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11:11:03 <kilobyte> unlike spriggans, heavy-armour backgrounds get an ill-fitting heavy piece that fits sizes -2 and -1
11:11:29 <kilobyte> although that's probably not needed now that the hard distinction between heavy and light armour is no more
11:12:28 <kilobyte> also, the race has changes that are drastic compared to random superficial mutations demonspawn get
11:13:03 <kilobyte> (the proposal came before the demonspawn overhaul... but the extent of powers is a lot bigger)
11:14:02 <kilobyte> like, "chain devil": no body armour, slow speed, big GDR, AC growing with level -- ie, permanent statue form of sort
11:14:46 <kilobyte> or, "fire demon" with fire immunity, vulnerability to cold, strong fire breath, ...
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11:22:47 <Eronarn> kilobyte: it is a game with magic - there's no reason why a new body has to be weaker. consider something dying and then coming back undead, for instance :)
11:23:42 <Eronarn> don't really like the fiend proposal, i think there would be too much overlap with DS
11:23:47 <OG17> people like cats because they're cats, not tiger monsters
11:24:16 <OG17> also fiends sound like draconians
11:26:12 <kilobyte> Eronarn: I'm just describing the old brainstorms, obviously some of the ideas were taken for DS
11:27:09 <Eronarn> OG17: people like big cats, too
11:27:16 <Eronarn> in fact, a lot of people thought that's what felids were
11:27:25 <Eronarn> they were surprised when they found out they were *normal* cats
11:29:40 <kilobyte> used to be normal, they are the size of norwegian forest now
11:32:21 <Wensley> ah, so norwegian forest is a breed of cat, and not some euphemism for the size of forests in norway :P
11:33:48 <Eronarn> kilobyte: still very tiny to be able to cut up hydras :)
11:33:54 <Ashenzari> show_newturn_mark option (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3955) by donblas
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11:35:58 <kilobyte> Eronarn: spriggan sized
11:44:47 <Eronarn> personally i think anything shorter than a shortsword being able to lop heads off is silly :P
11:45:53 <Eronarn> (i wonder if stuff having a variable chance of cutting hydra heads would help, rather than the current always-or-never)
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11:46:46 <MarvinPA> Eronarn: nothing shorter than a shortsword can cut off hydra heads, can it?
11:46:50 <MarvinPA> oh claws, right
11:49:20 <Eronarn> daggers, too, i think?
11:50:32 <MarvinPA> they stab, not slash
11:50:40 <MarvinPA> probably
11:50:43 <MarvinPA> i might be wrong
11:51:09 <MarvinPA> nope, stabbing it is
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11:56:42 <ghallberg> Should do the same kinda damage as whips imo, slicing, non-chopping :P
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12:28:02 <Zaba> would renaming megabats to bats be controversial?
12:28:28 <bmh> as someone who hates megabats, I say no. ;-)
12:28:40 <Zaba> I think so, too
12:29:18 <bmh> I'm going to change xom_monty_hall to show the player one of the sheep some of the time
12:29:32 <Zaba> kilobyte, what do you think about renaming megabats to bats?
12:29:57 <MarvinPA> i thought there was a moratorium on arguing about megabats :P
12:30:15 <Zaba> I am not arguing
12:30:42 <elliptic> personally I don't notice the name at all by this point
12:31:33 <MarvinPA> i don't really care, yeah
12:31:42 <Zaba> it seems that people either don't care or don't like it
12:32:29 <bmh> can someone look at my game on CDO (bh) I've come across a broken vault for the second time
12:32:45 <MarvinPA> that's reported, yeah
12:32:48 <bmh> k
12:32:56 <MarvinPA> cloud generators generally seem to have been broken
12:35:24 <bmh> what's the rationale behind prohibiting full vampires from turning into bats?
12:36:05 <ais523> if they're full, they're fully human, pretty much, and humans can't turn into bats
12:38:53 <OG17> strange that undead can't tmut but vp can only turn into a bat when undead
12:39:25 <OG17> would make sense to always allow it
12:40:25 <MarvinPA> vp can transform when full or higher
12:40:47 <bmh> Sorry, you're too full to transform right now.
12:40:55 <MarvinPA> into stuff other than bats, i mean
12:41:41 <OG17> that's why bats being reverse is weird
12:42:04 <MarvinPA> why? bat form is clearly different than self-transmutation
12:42:20 <MarvinPA> it's an innate vampirey ability, as opposed to casting a spell on yourself that turns you into something else
12:42:41 <OG17> turning into a bat doesn't seem that different from turning into a spider
12:42:57 <OG17> it being innate is why I'd let them do it while undead though
12:43:20 <bmh> As a player, I was surprised to find that I couldn't transform, as usually it's the case that powers *take* food
12:43:21 <OG17> but barring it from living isn't necessary
12:43:39 <Gretell> Stable branch on tiles.crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.8.0-130-g5916b76 (32)
12:44:32 <MarvinPA> well, access to bat form works nicely as part of the tradeoff between trying to stay full and staying satiated/hungry or less
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12:45:09 <OG17> regen and resists are much more important
12:45:43 <OG17> and if you need to fly over something you can just wait around a little
12:46:16 <elliptic> bat form is really nice for running away
12:46:19 <MarvinPA> access to bat form for the speed is pretty relevant
12:46:43 <bmh> whoa. Giant spores can do a ton of damage
12:46:43 <elliptic> I hardly used it at all until recently but I'm pretty sure that was a mistake
12:46:46 <bmh> @??giant spore
12:46:47 <Gretell> giant spore (03*) | Speed: 15 | HD: 1 | Health: 1 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 1 | Flags: 03plant, lev | Res: 06magic(4), 03poison, 12drown, 13neg+++ | XP: 1.
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13:04:34 <Eronarn> ??batform[2]
13:04:35 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled batform[2] in my learndb.
13:04:38 <Eronarn> ??bat form[2]
13:04:39 <Henzell> bat form[2/2]: Eronarn the Necromancer (L27 DSNe), worshipper of Sif Muna, collapsed under their own weight caused by  gaining the bat transformation on Lair:2 on 2008-08-27, with 538692 points after 150318 turns and 17:21:18.
13:05:40 <Eronarn> @??vampire bat
13:05:40 <Gretell> vampire bat (14b) | Speed: 30 | HD: 3 | Health: 6-15 | AC/EV: 1/14 | Damage: 305(vampiric) | Flags: evil, sense invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(4) | Vul: 08holy | XP: 55.
13:05:52 <Eronarn> that's a little odd that our vampire bats aren't undead
13:05:56 <Eronarn> i'd expect them to be
13:08:17 <bmh> ??bat form[1]
13:08:17 <Henzell> bat form[1/2]: An ability you get as a vampire at xl3. At xl10 cursed equipment will merge when transforming. Grants minimum movement delay and gives a bonus to EV and Dex when unencumbered but cripples your Str. No spellcasting.
13:09:05 <Eronarn> is the xl 10 thing still true? because that's awful if so
13:09:35 <Eronarn> also i think maybe batform should just meld your entire inventory, you can't do anything interesting in it anyways and it would make encumbrance not a problem
13:10:50 <MarvinPA> !learn edit bat_form[1] s/ At xl10 cursed equipment will merge when transforming.//
13:10:50 <Henzell> bat form[1/2]: An ability you get as a vampire at xl3. Grants minimum movement delay and gives a bonus to EV and Dex when unencumbered but cripples your Str. No spellcasting.
13:11:50 <MarvinPA> pretty sure all forms meld cursed stuff since a while ago
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13:30:36 <CIA-45> 03kilobyte * r7126c7483049 10/crawl-ref/source/ (feature.cc initfile.cc mon-util.cc viewchar.cc): Cut attempts to use control, CJK or invalid characters as display glyphs.
13:30:36 <CIA-45> 03kilobyte * r53d52e4f66cb 10/crawl-ref/source/test/corpse.lua: Repeat a random test ("any corpse") 100 times to let the failure show up.
13:30:38 <CIA-45> 03kilobyte * rb78db8501771 10/crawl-ref/source/book-data.h: Axe the Berserker Rage spell. Boost Crusaders.
13:34:21 <ghallberg> Boost Crusaders? :)
13:34:29 <monqy> ozocubu's armour and haste
13:34:55 <MarvinPA> cia is slowwww
13:34:59 <ghallberg> monqy: Ah
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13:48:12 <elliptic> might as well remove fire brand from that book if it is going to get ozo's armour for the time being
13:50:40 <CIA-45> 03kilobyte * r96a2858c6149 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Stop and ask the player when trying to butcher corpses as a vampire (bmh).
13:55:02 <monqy> who was it that wanted to make crusaders ice/defense and reavers fire/offense? galehar?
14:01:29 <MarvinPA> i think so
14:03:31 <st_> why, when apparently we're going to remove conjurer for overlapping with elementalists are we adding elementalist spells to crusader
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14:20:48 <Eronarn> wow we're actually getting rid of zerk rage?
14:20:51 <Eronarn> i never thought that'd happen
14:21:51 <OG17> could cr not become a mix of ie hybrid and ae hybrid
14:23:12 <monqy> is that's what's happening, now?
14:23:20 <Eronarn> no
14:23:57 <casmith789> don't worry this is a common trick for the devteam to get rid of a class
14:24:12 <casmith789> they take away its defining feature and then say it is terrible and drop it
14:24:56 <monqy> I feel better already
14:25:07 <Eronarn> casmith789: now we just need to get rid of regen, since it's nec/tmut and crusaders don't get tmut skill
14:25:14 <OG17> hand crossbows, ...?
14:28:29 <MarvinPA> // Dead men can't update their shopping lists.
14:28:33 <MarvinPA> :(
14:29:45 <OG17> shop till you drop
14:30:08 <Eronarn> oh that reminds me MarvinPA you should go shoot down the 'change brands and silence to hexes' thing in the .9 plan
14:30:39 <casmith789> oh that reminds me remove the zig -> shopping list feature
14:30:41 <MarvinPA> yeah
14:30:42 <monqy> silence is still a charm, I take it?
14:30:46 <MarvinPA> it is
14:30:48 <casmith789> it just confuses newbies and is not useful
14:30:55 <MarvinPA> oh yeah i was going to do that
14:31:05 <MarvinPA> then i got confused by lua, then i think i figured it out
14:32:15 <MarvinPA> hm, oh right i just tried to remove it in pan
14:35:56 <elliptic> the really confusing thing is that zigs don't ask you about the shopping list if you have enough money for them
14:36:43 <casmith789> you get really odd situations. I've seen someone drop through a shaft, get the zig shopping list question and then die to the angels in a single turn
14:37:01 <MarvinPA> heh
14:38:42 <ais523> you can press $ to view the shopping list, can't you?
14:38:51 <ais523> why not just make zigs addable to the shopping list from inside that menu
14:39:19 <ZChris13> you can't even view the shopping list unless there is already something on it
14:39:37 <MarvinPA> you can add zigs by trying to enter them, currently
14:40:11 <MarvinPA> so yeah, probably the annoying prompt just shouldn't show up at all
14:40:54 <OG17> does the price show on ^o
14:41:01 <elliptic> yes
14:41:04 <kilobyte> what about making shafts obey no_rtele_into?
14:41:14 <OG17> I suggested that ages ago
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14:41:48 <OG17> falling into the middle of a vault ruins the vault
14:41:52 <OG17> and/or kills you
14:45:22 <MarvinPA> oh, they don't?
14:48:58 <elliptic> was shaft-abuse fixed, then?
14:49:34 <elliptic> if they drop you on a random square on the level, then respecting no_rtele_into sounds good, yeah
14:49:57 <MarvinPA> no, the abuse wasn't fixed yet i don't think
14:49:59 <kilobyte> elliptic: instead of the top left corner, it's the same coords as you were on before
14:50:33 <elliptic> well, that needs to be fixed before respecting no_rtele_into even makes sense :)
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14:51:08 <kilobyte> didn't we talk about this just a week or so ago?
14:51:44 <MarvinPA> probably, i think there was a consensus to change shafts/hatches to pick a random spot to land you on the first time you use them
14:51:51 <MarvinPA> just requires somebody to actually code it :P
14:52:09 <kilobyte> the consensus was to make hatches use a hash of (some seed, place)
14:52:20 <MarvinPA> right
14:52:54 <kilobyte> well, that's functionally identical
14:53:20 <kilobyte> I did a look at the code and it's anything but clear :(
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15:07:09 <Eronarn> falling into the middle of a vault can actually be ok, for certain vaults, so no_rtele makes sense (since it's used judiciously)
15:09:24 <kilobyte> the flag is set exactly when randomly teleporting there would be not ok
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15:15:43 <stabwound> my felid thread wasn't supposed to be solely about the extra lives mechanic :|
15:15:51 <stabwound> although that's all anyone is talking about
15:17:52 <stabwound> I'd just like them to have some kind of interesting aspect outside of the extra lives
15:18:51 <kilobyte> felid thread?
15:19:03 <stabwound> https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1612
15:19:20 <monqy> I see someone edited the title
15:19:31 <kilobyte> you have a vastly different gameplay due to different set of equipment available
15:19:35 <stabwound> that was kind of annoying :S
15:21:23 <kilobyte> wait, wait, wait... people are seriously talking about octopodes as an "equivalent"?  As in, the race with 11 slots vs one with 3?  (Normal races have 9, restricted 7)
15:21:51 <stabwound> equivalent as in unable to use any armor
15:21:54 <kilobyte> they are an experiment in pretty much the opposite direction
15:22:10 <MarvinPA> i'd say the octopode item restriction is more interesting, although certainly not more restrictive later on
15:23:33 <Eronarn> i came up with the idea for octopodes before felids happened, and they are only related at all in that they have non-humanoid forms
15:23:52 <kilobyte> rings > armour slots: like, good gloves give Str+3, great gloves rF+ -- equivalent to rings you don't even look at.  A good cloak gives rPois, a great one gives rCorr Cons (this one is better than most rings).  Great robes give at most rF+ rC+.
15:24:43 <Eronarn> kilobyte: no... good gloves give str +3 and AC +3 :)
15:24:50 <Eronarn> (or is it +4? i forget)
15:25:08 <kilobyte> also, you get top rings non-randart rings on D:1, top randart ones on D:3 (?)
15:25:29 <Eronarn> that's not a fair comparison though, because everyone can wear two rings
15:25:42 <Eronarn> and it's extremely rare to get two worthwhile rings until several dlvls in
15:25:53 <kilobyte> it's easily scummable
15:25:53 <Eronarn> (remember, cpm can show up on d1!)
15:26:36 <Eronarn> the odds of getting >2 useful rings of slaying on d1 are so astronomically low that i don't even consider it worth talking about
15:26:38 <kilobyte> another problem with rings: it's an insane lottery.  You quite often have 8 rings on D:1 or 1 until D:8.
15:27:10 <stabwound> yeah, it's definitely very luck based
15:27:18 <kilobyte> you don't need great rings, good ones are enough
15:27:18 <stabwound> which kind of sucks
15:27:22 <stabwound> but not a huge deal
15:27:43 <stabwound> are octopodes viable melee characters?
15:27:57 <stabwound> I have to admit I haven't really tried them
15:28:03 <kilobyte> on the other hand, rings are not guaranteed, while you can count on basic mid-tier gear from orc warriors and such
15:28:52 <Eronarn> the ring lottery is fine by me because we already have lottery races (dr, ds) that work pretty well
15:28:58 <kilobyte> actually, it should be easy to test: we can generate thousands on levels and have a script write down all rings generated
15:29:03 <Eronarn> this is just one that will always win given long enough
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15:29:26 <Eronarn> but, 'long enough' may be so long that if you want it to happen you have to prolong winning
15:29:55 <stabwound> I find it super annoying when I do 3 runes and don't have good enough resists for zot
15:30:22 <kilobyte> ds and dr a lottery?  Dr might get a colour you didn't want but all are very roughly equivalent.  Ds have stronger and weaker mutations but you still always get some.
15:30:33 <Eronarn> kilobyte: you always get some rings, too :P
15:30:51 <Eronarn> some ds mutations (though it was worth with old DS) are much, much better than others
15:30:55 <Eronarn> *worse
15:31:22 <Eronarn> and dr, it is definitely a lottery - you are guaranteed to get something but not necessarily what you wanted
15:31:25 <kilobyte> HOLY CRAP.  Just pulled from git.  It's sad to see Zaba will be no longer among us :(
15:31:27 <stabwound> some of them are actively "bad" if they don't fit in with your character build
15:31:51 <stabwound> unless they've been changed lately
15:31:52 <kilobyte> commit a1422f39: Rename megabats to bats.
15:32:00 <Eronarn> (likewise with rings; very unlikely to get less than 8 in a long game, but there is a reasonable chance you will get a set of 8 best rings that is *worse* than a normal character's gear)
15:32:01 <MarvinPA> haha yeah, zaba took the plunge
15:32:02 <kilobyte> running afoul of due... now that's a suicide
15:32:25 <elliptic> new idea: different name for bats every version
15:32:44 <Eronarn> .10 = decabats
15:33:02 <stabwound> the monster name changes threw me off
15:33:22 <stabwound> especially because it screwed some of old monster glyphs
15:33:40 <stabwound> 0.3 monster glyphs or whatever that option is
15:33:52 <stabwound> "what is this j?"
15:34:09 <Eronarn> (random aside: we should totally have a Lord of the Rings unique. an octopus, of course.)
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15:40:24 <kilobyte> stabwound: are some ../settings/XXX_monster_glyphs.txt files badly out of date?
15:41:05 <stabwound> it would seem so, yeah
15:41:16 <kilobyte> we probably should chainload them... if you want 0.3's state, it won't work without loading 0.7 changes first
15:41:32 <stabwound> I think anything that had its name changed recently isn't included in the old glyph thing
15:42:46 <stabwound> I'm stubborn and keep old glyphs and keybindings
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15:48:08 <purge> omg first the dev team removes bladed requirement from chopping, and now you remove the berserker rage spell! <3
15:48:26 <purge> i always felt so cheap having the br spell
15:48:59 <stabwound> wow, you don't need a blade to chop?
15:49:09 <purge> nope :D
15:49:12 <stabwound> nice
15:49:40 <stabwound> I hate the blade roulette on characters that don't have a sharp weapon to start with
15:49:49 <stabwound> or not even finding a blade weapon
15:50:34 <stabwound> dunno about removing BR though
15:53:03 <ghallberg> purge stabwound: My first contribution to the game :D Glas it's appreciated!
15:53:42 <stabwound> how is it described in-game?
15:53:49 <stabwound> that's what I'm wondering :P
15:53:57 <Henzell> beuhler the Ducker (L5 FeTm) ASSERT((int)Buffer.size() == expanded_keys_left) in 'macro.cc' at line 553 failed on turn 3911. (D:5)
15:56:04 <purge> megabats to bats.. i don't know megabats kinda grew on me as a unique crawlism
15:57:53 <MarvinPA> stabwound: i think it's just "you switch to your knife for butchering" or something, it's assumed you're carrying one with you anyway
15:58:09 <MarvinPA> i have multiturn spam messages muted so i don't see it anyway :P
15:58:48 <kilobyte> hrm, you get swap messages if you're already bare-handed
15:58:48 <stabwound> cool
15:59:47 <kilobyte> "You are now empty-handed."
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16:34:10 <casmith789> stabwound: I thought you didn't like playing trunk
16:35:14 <stabwound> when did I say I play trunk?
16:36:25 <stabwound> (because I don't)
16:36:48 <stabwound> but I might once in a while
16:37:03 <bmh> why the trunk hate?
16:37:42 <stabwound> I didn't play trunk because I only played on CAO
16:37:53 <stabwound> before trunk was available there
16:39:06 <bmh> !seen rax
16:39:06 <Henzell> I last saw rax at Wed May 11 19:56:53 2011 UTC (1h 42m 13s ago) saying That works, thanks! on ##crawl.
16:40:55 <kilobyte> what's the point in playing stable?
16:41:12 <bmh> kilobyte: some people crave stability?
16:41:18 <kilobyte> heck, I waited to play a 0.7 game until after the 0.8 release to not get any stable cooties on me
16:41:46 <casmith789> oh sorry, read about your blade requirement statement and it only applies to trunk I think
16:47:09 <bmh> Marc runs CDO, right?
16:47:14 <kilobyte> yup
16:47:18 <bmh> does he use IRC?
16:47:34 <bmh> my <nick -> real name> mappings are incomplete
16:48:15 <rax> bmh: What's up?
16:48:32 <bmh> rax: I mailed you about getting a pile of CAO morgues, just wanted to poke you here
16:48:51 <rax> Oh, hrm.
16:49:08 <rax> Probably a custom dump of the database based on a query written by --- *finger on nose* --- greensnark!
16:49:34 <bmh> I saw that script. I just didn't want to abuse your server
16:49:37 <rax> You need the actual morguefiles? I'm not 100% sure those are trivially linked, but I am sure we can make it work.
16:50:05 <rax> Oh, is there a script already? (grad school in the last year has made me more of a figurehead than anything else for CAO :( )
16:50:18 <bmh> no, I don't need the morgues. What I want is the skill increase information, spells, and a couple of other data points
16:50:33 <rax> I'm not 100% sure we can get that data without the morgues.
16:50:39 <kilobyte> rax: I wgetted them a year ago, it took several days
16:50:44 <bmh> ha.
16:50:54 <bmh> rax: can I mail you a harddrive? :-)
16:51:03 <rax> No, because I'm 1000 miles from the machien.
16:51:07 <rax> Otherwise that would be fine. :P
16:51:16 <kilobyte> bmh: that info is not present outside of morgues, you need to parse them
16:51:42 <kilobyte> it's not about actual size, it's because of 34275983475234897 small files
16:51:52 <rax> It would not be unreasonable to make a collection of all winner morgues and hand it to you for parsing. I am just not sure how to do the "get every winner morgue" trick.
16:51:59 <rax> Without, like, using grep, which auuuuugh
16:52:12 <kilobyte> what's wrong with grep?
16:52:19 <bmh> it's line oriented?
16:52:25 <Eronarn> get all morgues and let bmh sort it out? :)
16:52:29 <rax> I would naively expect it to be super slower than doing something clever with the Henzell db.
16:52:37 <bmh> Eronarn: I don't have the bandwidth
16:52:51 <Eronarn> rax: you could probably use filesize, and just not include ones that are below a certain limit
16:52:54 <kilobyte> just note that a filesystem with traditional inodes takes tens of minutes to do any operation there
16:53:01 <Eronarn> this will get the savescumming and such removed
16:53:07 <Eronarn> and looking at losers as well as winners is interesting
16:53:09 <kilobyte> Eronarn: no big reason, the file isn't that big
16:53:22 <Eronarn> kilobyte: no, i mean to get rid of ones that have no morgue length because they didn't do anything in the game
16:53:33 <Eronarn> just to cut down on the sheer number of files
16:53:37 <bmh> (the motivation behind all this is to write an XP autoallocator)
16:54:15 <kilobyte> rax: could you just make a tarball and let bmh and me suck it down?
16:54:27 <bmh> kilobyte: bit torrent?
16:54:45 <rax> kilobyte: Not enough disk space at the moment.
16:54:47 <kilobyte> bmh: why?  A regular download is faster than torrent for a single copy.
16:55:05 <rax> ("give CAO like 400GB more with lvm" is on my tasklist for this month)
16:55:08 <bmh> you were talking at least two copies
16:55:54 <kilobyte> rax: my copy I fetched in september last year (sorry for not asking you before) takes 300MB bzipped
16:56:08 <rax> kilobyte: As long as I didn't notice, I don't care. ;)
16:56:14 <rax> I guess the ttyrecs are most of the size.
16:56:40 <rax> Maybe it would be possible to make an "all of the morgues" tarball. Hrm.
16:57:08 <kilobyte> the burden on the server for copying a tarball would be several orders of magnitude smaller than having apache process a request for every file like I did
16:57:23 <bmh> rax: I have some friends in Boston who I could cajole into playing courier for a physical disk
16:58:43 <Eronarn> if kilo has a copy from last year, can't you just do only morgues more recent than then?
16:58:51 <kilobyte> bmh: it's 300 MB, unless you need ttyrecs, there's no need in making a mountain out of a molehill
16:58:55 <rax> kilobyte: If it's really that small, that shouldn't be a problem. I would have expected a fair bit larger. Also what Eronarn said, probably.
16:59:10 <bmh> kilobyte: that's it?
16:59:33 <bmh> kilobyte: do the ttyrecs work by recording all the output from curses?
16:59:48 <kilobyte> Eronarn: it was updated twice, I wouldn't trust that copy if it's cheap to do a proper one
16:59:52 <kilobyte> bmh: yeah
17:00:01 <rax> crawl ttyrecs are huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge
17:00:02 <Napkin> rax?
17:00:04 <bmh> kilobyte: we can do a lot better than that.
17:00:08 <rax> Napkin: Hi!
17:00:15 <Napkin> Hi :
17:00:18 <Napkin> Hi :)
17:00:19 <bmh> crawl is deterministic. The random number generator is deterministic!
17:00:28 <bmh> given the seed and all the keypresses we can recreate any game
17:00:36 <Napkin> greensnark took a many ttyrecs from my shoulder recently
17:00:42 <Napkin> like 270gb
17:00:44 <bmh> I'd be happy to use your old morgueball
17:01:08 <Napkin> and serves them from his dedicated server now
17:01:17 <Napkin> maybe he can take some from you too?
17:01:23 <rax> bmh: You'd also need the macro files from the time the game was played.
17:01:26 <rax> Napkin: He already did.
17:01:36 <rax> But I have 600GB of unused disk, so I don't mind allocating it :P
17:01:45 <bmh> rax: don't macros just expand into keypresses?
17:01:45 <Napkin> ahhh! excellent :D
17:02:01 <Napkin> see, i should have paid more attention again about what was being said here :-$
17:02:06 <Napkin> as always ;)
17:02:10 <kilobyte> bmh: and the exact version of Crawl, and the exact uninitialized memory, and...
17:02:31 <bmh> kilobyte: we depend on the state of unitialized memory?
17:02:51 <kilobyte> (I do valgrind runs once in a while, but in the past the state was much worse)
17:05:22 <bmh> kilobyte: can you put your tarball somewhere I can fetch it?
17:07:57 <kilobyte> bmh: sure, but the server it's on has a 2Mbit/s connection so it will take ages
17:08:42 <bmh> I can deal with that
17:10:05 <bmh> ??dragon slaying
17:10:08 <Henzell> dragon slaying[1/1]: Increases damage by 75% against all dragons (by name, not "D"), all drakes, lindwurm and all draconians, excluding komodo dragons. Also reduces accuracy from dragon and draconian breath by 25%. Only available on polearms.
17:10:39 <kilobyte> bmh: http://angband.pl/tmp/rawdata.tar.bz2
17:11:31 <bmh> (eta ~30m)
17:11:43 -!- bmh is now known as bmh_asleep
17:11:44 <bmh_asleep> thanks
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17:12:34 <kilobyte> er what?  Doh, my math skills are a bit rusty :p  Screwed it by an order of magnitude.
17:12:40 <due> hi
17:12:50 <galehar> hi
17:12:57 -!- bmh_asleep is now known as bmh
17:13:02 <bmh> ...not asleep yet
17:13:06 <kilobyte> due! (and re-hi galehar)
17:13:22 <due> not awake yet! alos, jesus, it's cold today.
17:13:33 <galehar> what's the topic?
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17:14:56 <kilobyte> about wyrmbane: what if we made it increase its enchantment for every dragon you kill (failing if the existing enchantment is high enough and the dragon was a weak one)
17:15:17 <due> dragon += draconian?
17:15:21 <due> it might be a bit overpowered in zot.
17:15:57 <elliptic> is wyrmbane still a spear?
17:15:59 <kilobyte> a +6 _spear_ would have to be improved quite a lot to be overpowered
17:16:16 <kilobyte> and that's what the cap is for
17:16:31 <due> oh spear? true.
17:17:13 <elliptic> can't it be a better base type? I understand the flavour of having it be a spear, but it makes it trickier to make usable...
17:17:14 <kilobyte> ??wyrmbane
17:17:14 <Henzell> wyrmbane[1/1]: A scale-covered lance +9,+6 Wyrmbane {slay drac, +Rage rPois rF+ AC+5}. Base type is spear. :'(
17:17:39 <kilobyte> elliptic: no way to make a _lance_ use one of our existing base types
17:18:20 -!- bmh is now known as bmh_asleep
17:18:20 <kilobyte> and you can emulate better base types with enchantment or slaying
17:18:30 <casmith789> +Rage already gives slaying effectively
17:18:40 <elliptic> yeah, I was about to suggest slaying like the cutlass
17:18:54 <elliptic> though enchantment might be better
17:18:58 <Eronarn> kilobyte: i'd actually rather see a 'unique <foo>' that did that with named monsters :)
17:19:05 <Eronarn> getting stronger, i mean
17:19:55 <Napkin> webtiles updated, btw
17:20:20 <casmith789> updated to more current 0.8?
17:21:03 <Napkin> well, yes, since it's a currently a branch of it's own
17:21:17 <Napkin> more commits than crawl 0.8, of course ;)
17:21:35 <casmith789> =(
17:21:36 <Napkin> *its
17:21:44 <casmith789> so it won't count for the tourney?
17:21:52 <Napkin> you don't get it
17:22:06 <Napkin> there is python magic involved
17:22:24 <Napkin> and the output module is getting improved too
17:22:40 <Napkin> gameplay-wise it's the same as crawl 0.8, of course
17:23:01 <Napkin> so it will count for the tourney :)
17:23:35 <casmith789> :)
17:24:01 <elliptic> by the way, is there any chance that someone could post a short announcement of the tourney on the CDO blog?
17:24:04 <Napkin> read the changelog we put up on behind the webtiles link and you'll see what i mean :)
17:24:16 <Napkin> there we go!
17:24:23 <Napkin> you need access, elliptic :>
17:24:31 <due> oh, i meant to to dhtat the other night
17:24:42 <elliptic> napkin: I could do it myself if you want to set up an account for me, yeah :)
17:25:04 <elliptic> nothing very involved needs to be posted though
17:25:05 <Napkin> talk to due - maybe he has something prepared already
17:26:41 <due> vague paragraphs in my head...
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17:31:43 <Excedrin> skills2.cc  re: ash reskill stuff, "showned" on line 979 and 984
17:33:34 <kilobyte> Excedrin: fixed, thanks
17:34:12 <Napkin> g'night o/
17:34:51 <Napkin> oops
17:34:59 <Napkin> houston, we have a problem...
17:35:00 <Napkin> cia@cia.vc
17:35:00 <Napkin> SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:<cia@cia.vc>:
17:35:21 <Napkin> ---
17:35:25 <Napkin> just for the record
17:35:56 <elliptic> due: well, I'd be happy to let you do it if you want (you did a great job announcing last tourney) or I can throw something together myself if you'd rather
17:36:27 <due> elliptic: Problem is that I am at work -- and I keep forgetting to do it when I get home; if you pester me, I'll definitely do it tonight
17:37:22 <purge> due: megabats :(
17:37:48 <Napkin> mute!
17:38:01 <elliptic> due: okay then, if I have the time and feel up to it I'll do it myself before then but otherwise I'll ask you about it later :)
17:41:34 <due> purge: whaat
17:45:08 <purge> zaba committed a1422f3
17:45:08 <purge> Rename megabats to bats.
17:48:20 <due> What
17:48:29 <due> Zaba: w. t. f.?
17:50:00 <ais523> due: Zaba's marked as away
17:50:06 <due> Yes, I know
17:50:09 <due> wrong time
17:50:18 <galehar> I think he purposely did it when CIA is down :)
17:51:09 <due> c-r-c is still there.
17:52:51 <galehar> 25 files changed, 53 insertions(+), 58 deletions(-)
17:52:57 <galehar> just for those goddamned bats
17:52:58 <galehar> :)
17:53:25 * due spluttering.
17:58:01 <due> I am literally gobsmacked :/
18:01:11 <due> sigh.
18:01:18 <due> Win some and lose some.
18:01:48 <Eronarn> due: add megapodes to crawl!
18:02:18 <elliptic> add a new zot monster: megarat
18:06:11 <Zannick> megalich
18:06:28 <due> if you're intent was to amuse me, it failed :p
18:06:31 <due> *your.
18:06:54 <Zannick> :(
18:07:14 <Zannick> megasigmund
18:07:43 <due> I'm extremely good at controlling my temper but pushing the point is not helping your case. :|
18:07:56 * Zannick goes idle for another week
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19:32:34 <Henzell> joy1999 the Archer (L13 CeHu) ASSERT(!invalid_monster(mon_act)) in 'state.cc' at line 425 failed on turn 32602. (Lair:7)
19:32:50 <kilobyte> !lm joy1999 type=crash -log
19:32:50 <Sequell> 6. joy1999, XL13 CeHu, T:32602 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/joy1999/crash-joy1999-20110512-003232.txt
19:36:45 <kilobyte> trampling into a shaft
19:37:05 <stabwound> heh
19:41:28 <Ashenzari> crash on being trampled into a shaft (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3956) by KiloByte
19:41:42 <kilobyte> 2:40am, reporting it so either me or someone else won't forget it
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20:56:51 <Ashenzari> Toads skeleton, spectral and simulacrum creatures (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3957) by Robsoie
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