00:00:31 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-86-ga27fdb6 (32) 00:07:31 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-86-ga27fdb6 00:11:17 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39:29 -!- eternaljwh has quit [Quit: dc] 01:28:41 -!- ZorbaTHut has joined ##crawl-dev 01:29:32 what's the official windows build environment? msvc? cygwin? 01:41:25 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:43:16 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:52:59 ZorbaTHut: mingw32 -- so neither 01:53:30 bah, that was going to be my third guess :) 01:53:45 thanks, time to try getting things functional 01:55:32 I've never actually compiled it onWindows before, sorry 01:55:59 no prob, if I run into problems I'll just ask the channel and hope people are awake 01:56:46 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 01:59:24 Keskitalo and ... a few other people use only Windwos for building. 01:59:26 So it is possible ;) 02:01:48 well honestly I don't really care what it builds on as long as it generates Windows binaries. but I'm assuming it's going to be far easier to get that to happen on a Windows box ;) 02:02:20 Cross-compiling is just as bad :) 02:02:33 it's something I've never done, and would be just as happy to keep it that way 02:15:25 -!- bmh_away has quit [Quit: bmh_away] 02:27:43 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 02:27:43 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 02:27:43 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 02:30:36 -!- bmh has quit [Client Quit] 03:17:50 moin guys 03:26:02 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 03:44:07 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 03:52:22 due: I haven't been on Windows for a while now actually. But I though msysgit was pretty painless. 03:52:36 Keskitalo: oh, hm, then someone else used it recently 03:52:38 Mu perhaps 04:54:59 -!- plaidman has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:14:44 -!- effo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:19:21 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:26:26 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 05:26:40 !seen jpeg 05:26:40 I last saw jpeg at Tue May 3 20:44:04 2011 UTC (5d 13h 42m 35s ago) quitting without a message. 05:28:38 ortoslon: she's on a break. 05:29:39 "break" 05:29:48 she's left the project for the time being 05:29:53 or at least active development 05:36:20 probably not the place to ask but when's nlarn getting a graphical version? 05:36:24 if at all 05:38:22 mlarn? 05:40:38 she quit nlarn quite a bit of time ago 05:40:45 ah 05:41:13 her new job keeps her from developing any other game, too 05:43:14 no competition clauses suck :/ 05:51:26 I have one as well, but it wasn't seen as a problem. 05:51:57 Of course, I'm working at University, so it's probably a liiiiittle more lax here. 05:52:55 Well, hmm, I'm not sure if it was a strongly stated no competition clause, or a more generic thing. Whatever that might mean. 05:53:19 !coffee 05:53:20 * Henzell hands Keskitalo a mug of cappuccino, brewed by the Serpent of Hell. 05:56:59 -!- Guest1990 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:59:25 I've linked WebTiles and OnlinePlayerStatus pages from the wordpress and mentioned it in the "How to play Online" page. 06:01:25 Napkin: could you post about my compilation of bad_ideas on the blog? in line with the honored tradition of posting long bulleted lists :) 06:05:43 hehe 06:05:45 link me? 06:05:58 https://sites.google.com/site/cherrypickedbadideas/ 06:08:31 hehe, nice 06:15:31 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:15:37 Are there any crawl dev related Twitter feeds? 06:17:08 I'm not sure we have enough twitteroids... 06:17:52 Ah, that's a shame. 06:18:35 is it really? ;) 06:20:50 It is for me an my laziness ;) 06:22:02 if you're not on twitter, you're not hip 06:22:46 ortoslon? 06:22:57 Napkin? 06:23:18 would you please link change the LearnDB link to point to http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/index.html instead? 06:23:32 *would you please change the LearnDB link to point to http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/index.html instead? 06:24:17 with #bad_ideas or without? 06:24:31 as you wish 06:24:39 bhaak: thanks for the compliment! :) 06:24:41 just the source server is important 06:26:00 done 06:26:21 kilobyte: ofc, you're also not on facebook that makes you ... i think this is so impossible that there isn't even a word for that ;) 06:26:29 03kilobyte * rf39d2c5bdd00 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Don't teleport shedu on top of walls, other monsters, you, outside the map, etc. 06:26:30 03kilobyte * r64b888d908e4 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Obey no_rtele_into for monsters as well. 06:27:49 -!- syllogism- has joined ##crawl-dev 06:28:19 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:31:35 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:34:46 ortoslon: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/best-bad-ideas 06:35:45 due: is there a point for that grid_distance() check in shedu teleport code? The target can be at most 5 Chebyshev squares away, so the additional check is redundant. 06:36:42 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:37:30 Napkin: Hah, that's cool :) 06:38:32 indeed, Eino :D 06:38:51 Snowclone: there was https://twitter.com/#!/crawlakrasiac/ 06:40:06 Napkin: you might also link to the serious "bad ideas" list https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:wont_do 06:40:28 nah, too many links already ;) 06:40:31 k 06:40:40 ortoslon: Have you played Angry Moth yet btw? 06:40:41 don't want to confuse people too much 06:41:05 what are the .d files? 06:41:10 galehar_: Very nice work with the 0.9 plan 06:41:13 Keskitalo: i've tried, it's too complex for me 06:41:51 Keskitalo: but at least i've nearly mastered Excellent Bifurcation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gHVP1xxIvk 06:41:52 btw, is anyone opposing webtiles to be made public? 06:42:02 -!- galehar_ is now known as galehar 06:42:09 I've already integrated it to the wordpress, but no announcement post yet 06:43:33 ortoslon: I've been unable to play that 06:43:42 damn, those graphics are good 06:44:08 ortoslon: But I did eventually "get" Transdimensional Hellspider, and with that experience Angry Moth was easy to pick up 06:44:28 I can't even follow the two different screens just for watching ... 06:44:33 Thanks, ortoslon :) 06:44:52 are there screenshots or something of angry moth? 06:45:01 -!- ghallber1 is now known as ghallberg 06:45:17 ghallberg: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=16704.0 06:45:25 ty 06:45:37 click on the demo post link, it has a youtube link + 2 new shots 06:49:15 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 06:51:34 hi 06:52:36 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 07:09:10 kilobyte: It's definitely the worley code that's causing the corruption. I threw in isolated calls to the library and left the rest of the abyss the same and the corruption still shows up 07:11:29 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:14:17 03kilobyte * r59224c514d4d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/database/monspeak.txt spl-summoning.cc): Brown-nosed imps. 07:14:27 03kilobyte * r43901c6ad2dc 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Special-case spriggan necromancy:27 title. 07:20:43 Nice, a title in french :) 07:21:39 and a sexual reference, how appropriate 07:23:26 kilobyte: added "le petite mort"? 07:23:46 sexual? 07:23:50 asking because i remove implemented ideas from my list 07:24:48 kilobyte: It means 'orgasm' 07:24:55 crap :p 07:25:28 * kilobyte knew what "petite" and "mort" means in French, but not the second meaning :p 07:26:11 revert time? Or is it mild? 07:26:41 I think it's ok 07:27:16 I dunno how strong it sounds to a french speaker, but I think it's a fun one. 07:28:44 i've removed "gigabats" and the two ideas implemented by kilobyte so that players will be surprised when they meet these fun nuggets naturally 07:28:53 -!- OG17 has quit [Quit: OG17] 07:29:16 I'm not much a fan of megabats. It just seems too silly. 'Worker ant' is a welcome change, though 07:30:18 Agree with bmh, megabat isn't funny it's just silly. 07:30:42 It just makes me think of 'Megashark v. Giant Squid' 07:34:14 don't say that aloud, due might still be not sleeping yet :p 07:34:34 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:35:14 As a native english speaker, he has no excuse ;-) 07:35:45 please, not that topic _again_ 07:37:12 Haha 07:37:25 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 07:40:40 imp text can't have gender or lips 07:44:54 lips: mummies only, right? 07:45:49 gender: "prince" is the only bad one, I think 07:48:42 technically, there were female "kings" (as in, actual rulers rather than mere consorts), but that's too obscure since modern rulers use "queen". "Prince" is on the same boat... 07:52:51 I'm compiling on a new machine (Linux RHEL) and I get much more warnings than before. Like: warning: converting to ‘int’ from ‘double’ 07:52:54 any idea? 07:53:10 "voivode" is gender-neutral (even in Polish), "ban" probably too, not entirely sure on "magnate". "Ruler" is perfectly fine, "master" not sure (is "mistress" mandatory, or merely an allowed alternative?) 07:53:39 galehar: converting to int from double is a plausible thing to do, so my guess is that the code was always doing that, and that machine just has higher default warning settings 07:53:40 galehar: what version of gcc do you use? 07:54:23 I tried 4.1.2 and 4.4.0 07:56:18 kilobyte: I found the problem. 07:56:29 I switched to master and rebuilt crawl. The abyss is still broken 07:59:31 cursesw 5.7, g++ 4.3.2 , anything else that would be useful to know? 08:01:16 back in 4 hours or so 08:01:21 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:05:15 Napkin: i've pruned the list some more (if two ideas are too similar, only one must stay) 08:06:10 also removed inappropriate exclamation marks! 08:11:16 kilobyte, forms, anything with a beak 08:11:27 cats and kobolds maybe 08:11:55 also rosy is humancentric anyway 08:13:15 great, ortoslon :) 08:14:11 it is included in the very bad_ideas entry, so it needs to stay in some form :p 08:15:23 Wikipedia says most vertebrates have them, although in mammals lips are much more prominent and mobile. And that beak _is_ lips (just keratinized). 08:15:42 {{ 08:15:42 if you.race() == "Mummy" 08:15:42 then return "velvet-covered" 08:15:42 else return "rosy-lipped" 08:15:42 end 08:15:44 }} 08:15:51 why not get rid of the line 08:15:56 seeing how many things don't have lips 08:15:59 so kenku is trivial to add 08:16:06 beak mutation 08:16:10 (octopuses) 08:16:35 spider, lich, maybe ice beast 08:16:51 doubt orcs etc have red lips 08:16:58 in that case ortoslon wouldn't get to scratch this entry from the list :p 08:18:15 Acur (L1 SpEn) (D:1) 08:18:19 also implies a pale complexion 08:18:39 !lm Acur type=crash -log 08:18:39 1. Acur, XL1 SpEn, T:0 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.8/Acur/crash-Acur-20110509-131812.txt 08:22:36 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 08:31:17 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 08:31:23 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:32:25 used proper unicode sqrt for the pythagoras line :) 08:38:21 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:47:23 d6 and _nothing_ to fight or escape a ranged-attack monster 08:47:33 boring? 08:48:28 converting kiku piety into XP: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1597 08:48:36 bug right? 08:50:44 that trick has been known for a while with using skeletal warriors rather than zonguldrok to animate the corpses 08:51:36 I don't think it is particularly abusive (especially compared to zonguldrok itself), but it still is a little weird 08:53:36 i think it'd be nice to change zonguldrok's effects anyway 08:54:27 i wonder if reaping brand and recurse and a half-decent base type would be enough, actually 08:54:48 yes, zonguldrok shouldn't just be "weapon people swap in to gain more xp" 08:55:12 that sounds interesting, yeah 08:55:43 though food issues could get annoying 08:56:59 yeah... 08:57:01 -!- Khaki has joined ##crawl-dev 08:57:01 vampiric + recurse + decent base type, maybe? 08:57:11 well, it wouldn't have to recurse every time you wield it 08:57:30 there's already leech 08:57:54 oh, I thought this was in addition to the hostile reanimation? 08:58:05 hm, i was thinking instead of 08:58:11 hostile reanimation seems cool if you can't just swap it in and out at will 08:58:56 yeah, maybe 09:00:08 i dunno, reaping just seems quite fitting for it 09:00:26 well, it would be nice to have a decent reaping weapon 09:00:42 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:00:44 and having it be a good base type and recurse would mean it gets around most of reaping's old problems 09:02:11 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:03:53 by the way, do you think that we should make artefact armours always highly enchanted? 09:04:21 no one uses artefact heavy stuff cause they lose so much AC 09:04:30 i think they could tend to be a bit higher than they do now, definitely 09:05:06 i guess that's mainly caused by ?ea never failing, now 09:05:26 marvinpa: not sure what base type would be best for reaping zonguldrok 09:05:53 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:05:57 there's no double sword unrand i suppose 09:06:53 and i can imagine lbl users might genuinely consider using a +9,+9 double sword of reaping 09:07:00 definitely 09:07:47 I'd even prefer something a little less powerful but demon blade already has leech 09:07:54 yeah 09:07:57 I guess could reduce the +9 09:08:28 probably fine to keep it though 09:08:37 could be particularly mean and keep the current hostile animate dead, so that if you don't kill stuff yourself the corpses get animated against you 09:08:50 whereas if you do the kill yourself it gets animated friendly 09:09:26 to prevent people from getting food by killing stuff with spells or summons or whatever? 09:09:34 yeah 09:10:02 and just because it'd be kinda cool :P 09:10:30 I'm not a big fan of that because it would just mean that people might kill stuff with spells sometimes for the extra xp 09:11:01 true, wonder if there's a way to make the hostile animate dead just give no xp 09:11:15 making the hostile reanimation guaranteed would be good too 09:11:37 since currently it is just a 50% chance each turn or something, which is a little strange 09:11:51 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:11:57 1/5 chance on world_reacts 09:13:35 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:13:53 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:14:21 it would be better if it happened immediately if you see the monster die, I think 09:14:44 huh 09:14:48 animate dead has radius 7 09:15:14 weird... 09:15:27 does torment still have radius 7 too? 09:17:21 looks like it's full los 09:18:34 yeah 09:18:43 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:20:05 ??zonguldrok 09:20:05 sword of zonguldrok[1/1]: +9,+9 bone longsword. 20% chance per turn of hostile animate dead. Note that fighting these hostile undead provides more exp and piety than sacrificing corpses would. Not as much food, though! Even wielding this is bad if you worship one of the good gods. 09:21:07 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:27:08 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 09:29:25 -!- eith has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:29:46 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 09:29:48 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 09:30:11 !seen galehar 09:30:11 I last saw galehar at Mon May 9 13:48:36 2011 UTC (41m 35s ago) saying bug right? on ##crawl-dev. 09:30:24 hi dpeg 09:30:50 galehar: Forgot if I told you already: I pm'ed Vintermann and he may be writing the food reform patch. 09:31:00 you told me 09:31:12 -!- dpeg is now known as dementpeg 09:31:13 forgot to put it on the planning. I'm adding it. 09:31:44 dpeg: hi, did you get my e-mail? sorry I was away this weekend :) 09:31:51 elliptic: yes, thanks! 09:31:57 I was away too. 09:32:20 kilobyte: nice commit about imp speech and spriggans for death, I like it! 09:34:51 dementpeg: so, you don't mind the subtle sexual reference, then. Kilobyte wasn't aware of it :) 09:35:17 le petite du mort? 09:35:24 I'm neither, enlighten us! 09:36:58 spriggan of death was great 09:37:28 I'm not sure what was bad about spriggan of death compared with anything else of death 09:38:27 03dpeg * rd23a70e73a6e 10/crawl-ref/CREDITS.txt: Update credits (elliptic). 09:38:40 -!- dementpeg is now known as dpeg 09:39:36 Adam added a little humour/theme, it's harmless, so let's go on and not worry (those discussions lead nowhere). 09:40:54 megabat of death 09:41:00 :P 09:41:24 I certainly don't mind such changes, I'm just a little curious about what he didn't like about spriggan of death :) 09:41:52 elliptic: gotta ask him :) 09:43:11 I cannot make out whether the reference is a book or a song. 09:53:20 dpeg: La petite mort is a metaphor for orgasm 09:53:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_petite_mort 09:53:30 galehar: *euphemism? 09:54:07 Ah, that's nice... and not so far off. Those French know what they're talking about :) 09:54:08 no, it's not an euphemism 09:56:38 kilobyte is just good! :) 10:00:37 imp speech needs to be wiped of gender/species/race stuff, in case it's pushed aside 10:01:03 OG17: what's wrong with special speech for imps taking on mummies, or centaurs etc? 10:01:32 the new stuff, I mean 10:01:35 princes and rosy lips 10:01:46 yes? 10:02:10 not every character is male, or has lips, or has rosy lips 10:02:34 My Kobolds all have rosy lips. 10:02:37 is this contentious 10:03:14 No, just saying is perhaps not worth the bother :) 10:03:25 at the least it could annoy someone who sees their character as a dark-skinned black 10:03:35 We're careful that gods are not tainted by traces of gender, but for imps, it matters a lot less. 10:03:55 the imp is talking to the character 10:04:22 I don't mind. Others? 10:08:10 what's the problem with imps saying ridiculous stuff? 10:08:25 03MarvinPA * rc39de3cc650d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/descript/spells.txt spl-summoning.cc): Increase Animate Dead's radius from 7 to LOS_RADIUS (8) 10:08:25 not sure why that would be added when it's very easy not to add it 10:08:36 03MarvinPA * r326ab1fdeb96 10/crawl-ref/source/ (art-data.txt art-func.h spl-summoning.cc): Improve the Sword of Zonguldrok 10:08:49 and then there's the need for mummy/beak/form special cases 10:11:05 !tell kilobyte Do we want special cases for the new imp speech regarding species? E.g. s/rosy lips/lovely beak/ for kenku (not sure what to do with mummies)? 10:11:07 dpeg: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 10:11:08 well they're sort of meant to talk nonsense surely, i guess avoiding gender references is good but stuff like "rosy-lipped" seems fine 10:11:37 MarvinPA: cool stuff 10:11:49 MarvinPA: yes, I think the same 10:12:55 not sure why the game should imply things about the character's race 10:13:00 people are sensitive about that 10:13:27 dpeg: "lovely" is not shakespearean enough :) Unlike a good deal of other parts, it's easy to come with good replacements for relevant body parts. 10:13:28 kilobyte: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them. 10:13:43 "pearly-beaked", "ivory-boned", etc 10:14:03 and I'd think it's much easier to not have one line than to have a bunch of special cases for it but that's your call 10:14:34 for orcs and such, the question is whether "rosy" means "pink" or "rose-coloured". If the latter, we're good. 10:15:03 kilobyte: no special courses for "normal" species needed 10:15:11 OG17: yeah, this is the easy way out. But it wouldn't let us mark the bad idea as implemented. And it's easy. 10:15:30 * dpeg remembers little Shakespeare apart from "Unsex me here!" and always connects that mentally to Ms Thatcher. 10:16:05 I should add Mme Merkel to the list. 10:16:07 (ok, would be easy if we look at just species and not mutations, but adding you.mutation[] to lua is an important addition for client scripts) 10:17:11 and time spent adding silly features like this is time not spent on boring bug fixing :p 10:17:52 rosy chromatophores 10:18:03 (it'll work for octopodes *and* chameleons!) 10:19:22 how do you put that into a suck-up address? 10:19:33 rosy-chromatophoreaed? 10:23:44 I've updated my HP proposal. Simpler and no change to the benefit-to-investment curve : https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:hp#simpler_proposal 10:24:13 numbers: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AqvhLOPFHpiMdHFJd3h1NTVlU0ZqREVrWEk5SVAzU2c&authkey=CNSFv_8J&hl=en#gid=4 10:28:45 What’s this =spriggan_current syntax? 10:33:01 I've defined named ranges 10:33:29 It makes managing the spreadsheet and formulas much easier than refering to cell coordinates 10:36:36 Thanks 10:37:00 -!- ophanim has joined ##crawl-dev 10:37:24 kilobyte: I am about to add oiseaux's temple. Do you mind if I tamper with your Zot temple map at the same time? 10:38:01 galehar: keep up the good work there 10:41:28 dpeg: please go ahead. I waited for your decision about that temple anyway -- since two people spoke against it. 10:42:59 galehar: for xp pool and ZotDef, I don't think the game would be hurt if we effectively doubled the xp you get by granting separate skill points and power for Zot abilities 10:43:44 oh huh, wrath of trog does reduce your mp now 10:44:22 galehar: other issues are victory-dancing your first skill point. What if we made it borrow from future xp gains? 10:44:29 MarvinPA: yeah, antimagic branded 10:44:46 right, a while ago there was a bug reported that it didn't reduce your maxmp despite the antimagic brand 10:44:54 but at some point between then and now that seems to have been fixed :P 10:45:26 same with draining: options I see are actually taking from skills (a bit of coding effort) or penalizing future training (much like current state, trivial to code) 10:46:45 taking from skills is a lot more interesting 10:46:50 xp debt is unfun 10:47:41 it just forces you to grind more if you want to level up more (but by the time you run into heavy draining you don't really need to level up much if at all to be able to win) 10:47:50 !learn edit bad_ideas[1] s/250/200/ 10:47:51 bad ideas[1/3149]: To read this whole list, visit http://crawl.akrasiac.org/learndb.html#bad_ideas. To read ortoslon's selection of ~200 favorites, visit https://sites.google.com/site/cherrypickedbadideas/ 10:47:55 pruning :) 10:48:09 !learn edit bad_ideas[1] s/https/http/ 10:48:10 bad ideas[1/3149]: To read this whole list, visit http://crawl.akrasiac.org/learndb.html#bad_ideas. To read ortoslon's selection of ~200 favorites, visit http://sites.google.com/site/cherrypickedbadideas/ 10:48:53 because learndb/index.html doesn't recognize https urls 10:50:15 dpeg: for oiseaux' entry vault, he uses false tiles without actually changing the underlying feature 10:55:46 on the topic of adding vaults, any thoughts on adding some of the orb chamber variations that have been on mantis for a while? 10:56:37 i think there's a couple that are sort of problematic in that they're way too hard, but a couple that look good and about the same difficulty as the others 10:57:09 there seems to be a public dislike of any chambers than the original one, and apportation has been dealt with in other way 10:57:32 of course, public dislike doesn't command us (otherwise megabats wouldn't last 15 minutes) 10:58:01 For a moment there I though bad_ideas[1] was: "To read this whole list" 10:58:12 ghallberg: <3 10:58:18 heh, that would be a better first one 10:58:27 :) 10:58:44 I'm gonna try to get some coding done tonight. Maybe the "drop last pick-up" 10:58:59 kilobyte: maybe, i did raise the idea of going back to just having the original orb chamber a while ago, since apportation has been tweaked 10:59:15 but i think there was some support in here at least for having a few variations 10:59:33 i'm not too bothered either way personally 10:59:34 ghallberg: that's why i made the list, so that no one will have to suffer again :) 10:59:57 I'm indifferent there 11:00:13 I stil don't undersand the purpose of either list. :P 11:00:27 I've never even been to Zot:1 so... I'm quite indeifferent ;) 11:01:48 I don't really like entry vaults that force you to D:2 immediatley. 11:01:54 I can't spell that word today. 11:01:58 my last attempt with lighred stone is fugly, though :( The remaining options are dark magenta, no stone, regular lightgray stone and (worst) spoilerrific original version. 11:02:29 dark magenta stone sounds good to me 11:02:33 zot variants are a ton of effort for very little gain 11:02:36 ghallberg: good point... they rely on knowledge of spoilers, and D:2 is far more deadly 11:02:56 Eronarn: they're not really much effort :P 11:03:04 I dunno how this one relies on spoilers, but I'm gonna die now :P 11:03:33 ghallberg: none of them force you to d:2, they always have secret doors or something 11:03:47 i think there is one entry vault that can sometimes actually force you to d:2 11:03:50 MarvinPA: think about how much time has been put in to arguing about them 11:03:53 eith: This one is a fort surrounded by deep water. 11:03:59 that's the one, yeah 11:04:11 really, well people have been lying to me then ;p 11:04:31 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:04:49 have to go 11:05:01 kilobyte: we'll have to discuss skill training another time 11:05:15 kilobyte: these orb chamber variants have magenta stone and it looks okay to me, anyway 11:05:16 kilobyte, elliptic: I'd like your input on the HP proposal 11:05:19 see you later 11:05:25 -!- galehar has quit [] 11:07:09 Elynae (L13 TrWz) ASSERT(!invalid_monster(mon_act)) in 'state.cc' at line 425 failed. (Lair:7) 11:07:54 -!- Elynae has joined ##crawl-dev 11:08:59 dis:[~/crawl/crawl-ref/source](master)$ git push gs master 11:09:00 == Gitorious: ========================================================== 11:09:00 fatal error 11:09:00 ======================================================================== 11:09:00 fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly 11:09:14 every single time for ~15 mins 11:10:18 kilobyte: is your ssh key set up correctly? 11:10:50 well, it worked since the gitorious changeover... 11:12:17 MarvinPA: go ahead with the orb chambers... I believe that at least cosmetic differences would be cool to have (different placement of the orb guardians, stuff like that) 11:12:18 03kilobyte * r3d40279772d8 10/crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Handle races without lips in imp suck-ups. 11:12:26 03kilobyte * r5821e7953845 10/crawl-ref/source/l_you.cc: Allow lua code to query you.mutation('breathe alcohol'). 11:12:29 03kilobyte * rd95a1b8b7416 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/zot.des: This weeks's Zot:5 colour. 11:12:34 heh 11:14:24 the variation of imp suck-ups is so small I wonder if they should be enabled at all... but for now, they are used on 3% of summonings 11:14:26 hm, maybe gitorious is just having issues? 11:14:29 i can't seem to pull, either 11:21:23 !seen Keskitalo 11:21:56 I last saw Keskitalo at Mon May 9 11:45:37 2011 UTC (4h 36m 15s ago) saying click on the demo post link, it has a youtube link + 2 new shots on ##crawl-dev. 11:22:30 !tell Keskitalo I am looking at temple.des. You're mad if I kick the hexagonal maps? 11:22:31 MarvinPA: my pull was quite slow, but it eventually happened. Its behaving as if they're under heavy load. 11:22:36 yeah, seems so 11:22:38 dpeg: OK, I'll let Keskitalo know. 11:24:21 ??needle of sickness 11:24:23 needle of sickness[1/1]: Like poisoned needles but worse. 11:24:28 don't they just stop regen? 11:25:43 ortoslon: yes, worse is "not as good" not "more powerful" 11:25:46 (in this context) 11:25:50 ah 11:34:19 03MarvinPA * rec73287fe52b 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/zot.des: Make the border of the Hall of Zot vault undiggable 11:34:36 03MarvinPA * rd3ef5dbd49ac 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/zot.des: Add two more orb chamber variations (monqy) 11:44:27 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:51:10 having only 6 orb guardians in orb_monky_twist is a bit easy 11:51:24 original has 12 11:52:09 oh hm, i thought it had 8 11:53:02 8 might be about right, anyway 11:54:28 MarvinPA: you can still LRD a section of stone and then scry the details out 11:54:51 oh, hm 11:54:55 good point 11:55:13 it's not possible to do that without breaking into the vault itself though, is it? 11:56:09 make it all permarock 11:56:18 and that ought to wake everything up and bring it to you 11:56:22 so we can get rid of the colour nonsense 11:56:25 but yeah, i dunno 11:56:28 you'd risk waking up the inhabitants of one of forward side chambers 11:56:37 -!- Khaki has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:56:39 st_: might be simpler 11:57:16 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 11:57:16 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 11:57:16 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 11:58:57 kilobyte: I recompiled with ncursesw 5.9 and everything seems to be normal 12:00:20 03MarvinPA * r905c25f62de0 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/zot.des: Add a couple more orb guardians to orb_monky_twist 12:03:11 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:04:02 and I spoke too soon 12:09:52 twist? that's the one with the glass walls right? 12:09:57 does it look decent in tiles? 12:10:04 or does that break it 12:10:20 oh, tiles 12:10:21 good question 12:10:47 i shall find out 12:11:06 has anyone had problems with crawl on 64-bit systems? 12:11:47 no 12:11:52 (I don't :P) 12:12:12 can you tell me what version of ncurses you have? 12:12:32 5.7, it seems 12:21:42 monqy: looks fine in tiles i guess, they just don't get recoloured 12:22:11 heh, all this awkwardness with colours of stone walls doesn't show up at all in tiles 12:26:11 ok. something is going wrong here. 12:27:34 I'm getting corrupt tiles in the abyss on my 64-bit box 12:28:20 I just built 905c25f62 12:28:56 bmh, is the code of yours available somewhere? 12:29:14 could it be that the noise library's still corrupting the whole lot of memory or something like that? 12:29:21 Zaba: I'm working on a clean branch. 12:29:36 After exhausting the possibility that my code was fouling anything up, I switched back to master 12:29:43 oh 12:30:47 you can see it in action at crawl:crawl@ch4n.org 12:31:49 does valgrind complain? 12:32:09 only about not freeing the global RNG on exit 12:33:04 rebuilding with debug... 12:37:07 hmm, ash monster tiers seem like they could work quite well for restricted TSO's healing on kills 12:37:11 restricting* 12:37:59 unless there's some way that could be exploited 12:41:56 restricting TSO's healing on kills? 12:42:44 doesn't TSO already give more healing for stuff of higher HD, like makhleb? 12:43:57 yeah, but you can still get loads of easy healing just by killing popcorn 12:44:12 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:44:29 hd is not the best here 12:44:38 i think it'd be good to have healing/mp on kills be better differentiated between the three gods that provide it, anyway 12:44:44 shadow fiends have higher hd than gloorx vloq 12:44:49 Zaba: I just rebuilt master with debug. The corruption is still showing up 12:44:51 probably a ton of other things like this 12:45:28 ash monster tiers just use monster xp vs player level 12:45:33 and with makhleb you can kill slugs for tons of healing 12:45:37 and seem to be quite simple and work fairly well 12:45:47 how gameable is it 12:46:12 double factor = sqrt(exp_needed(you.experience_level) / 30.0); 12:46:12 int tension = exper_value(mon) / (1 + factor); 12:46:22 -!- Elynae has quit [Quit: I'm going to train my children to say sudo instead of please] 12:46:24 so the only thing you can game is your experience level, i guess 12:46:32 you could remove the xl factor 12:46:41 using monster xp sounds more reasonable than HD, yeah... not sure about XL 12:46:47 you need more healing at higher xls anyway since you have more max hp 12:46:49 yes 12:47:34 (and things hit harder) 12:47:46 i dunno, it seems like the tiers are fairly accurate usually though 12:49:05 this way you'd only get healing for killing reasonably nasty things, and as you get further, what qualifies as "reasonably nasty" would increase (but also have more HD so you'd get more healing from it) 12:49:28 it sounds weird though that a lower-level character doing pan or wherever would be getting more HP from kills just by virtue of being lower level 12:49:37 yes 12:49:48 i guess 12:50:02 to make the tiers I just took a small port of tension code, ripping away most of the logic. It's pretty simplicistic. I've put a tool on gitorious, "ashtier" which shows some not too good cases. 12:50:31 also if I understand things right, races with a worse xp apt would have an advantage before reaching XL 27 12:51:10 hmm, would have to come up with a different formula to make it xl independent, then 12:51:56 also: thoughts on making makhleb only give healing on kills, not mp? 12:53:05 I'd rather see makhleb hp/mp on kills nerfed but keep both 12:53:17 I have a wacky idea that involves giving makhleb's hp/mp on kills to xom (not that directly, though) 12:53:29 haven't written it up though :( 12:53:43 mostly because I don't know what to do with makhleb 12:54:27 (the wacky idea covers all of the chaos gods and is probably too radical, but at least the xom parts would be nice, for sake of making xom reasonable) 12:54:31 Makhleb is mostly about the hp/mp bonus, you use greater servants sparingly, and minor destruction only to victory dance invo 12:54:51 right, which is rather unfortunate 12:54:52 minor destruction is a strong ranged attack through lair or so 12:55:06 the healing alone would still be huge 12:55:11 and greater servants are incredibly powerful 12:55:30 and mp-on-kills is fitting as vehumet's thing 12:55:39 the healing is huge certainly but it is only in extended endgame that it is all you care about 12:56:15 deep dwarves like it, which I also find rather unfortunate 12:56:15 right, and in the course of a normal game the healing+invocations would also still be great 12:56:27 sure 12:56:35 -!- ophanim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:57:01 the MP on kills does give makhleb more appeal to casters, though 12:57:11 -!- ophanim has joined ##crawl-dev 12:58:29 maybe that isn't necessary 12:58:58 well, makhleb has appeal to absolutely everyone at the moment :P 12:59:35 Maybe the MP gain could go, since vehumet has that aswell? 12:59:45 yup, that's what i suggested a bit ago :P 13:00:02 I didn't look far enough back in the log I guess :) 13:00:03 this is true... I just feel like casters already don't choose a very diverse assortment of gods 13:00:04 bmh, I get no such corruption here 13:00:18 It's still a bit of a "go to god" for DDs... 13:00:19 Zaba: I'm upgrading all my external dependencies 13:00:36 bmh: I tried to reproduce what you see on your branch for quite a while, without any success 13:00:51 Press-hold movement button behavior changed (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3949) by ibanix 13:00:51 killing terence gave me 3000 XP (nice!) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3948) by stepanxol 13:00:51 that is to say, I get no corruptions 13:02:12 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:04:00 kilobyte: I appreciate the effort. I'm glad that it seems like the problem is with the machine rather than the code 13:05:58 elliptic: i dunno... ash, sif, veh, kiku, chei (haha) are all pretty caster/hybrid focused 13:06:38 and i think makh still would be, he just wouldn't be nearly strictly better than vehumet later on :P 13:07:10 Vehumet's reduction is quite good... we can make it apply to hunger too 13:08:34 I'd say Makhleb is one of the few gods who are good as-is, it's others who could use some work 13:09:05 actually, I can't think of any other god I can say that about 13:09:18 kilobyte: Well it feels like Makh does too much... 13:09:44 I'd like a god that gives permanent minions, other than Beogh... 13:09:50 yredelemnul? 13:09:52 Oh nvm. I forgot Yred >.< 13:09:56 yeah... 13:09:59 Silly me. 13:10:00 jiyva 13:10:01 i think just dropping makh's mp restoration would be fine, he's by far the strongest god in the extended endgame and i think it's good to tone him down slightly instead of buffing every single other god 13:10:16 (not that lots of other gods don't need improving) 13:10:33 kilobyte, Zaba: drat. I can't even get it to run now: Temple circular_temple_12: dlmapchunk: bad header in precompiled chunk 13:13:00 rm -rf saves/{db,des} 13:13:45 What would happen to makhleb if xom got hp/mp on kills? The idea behind my xom ideas is that xom wants constant entertainment, and as such, will make it so the player may constantly entertain him. The hp/mp on kills (sometimes) would make it so players don't have to rest as much (resting bores xom) 13:13:46 MarvinPA: "strongest"? Well, TSO does all what Makhleb does except the summons are a huge deal better. 13:13:55 but tso disallows necro 13:14:03 except he stops you using all the good spells, yeah 13:14:10 and you don't need summons by that point 13:15:54 i'd take borg/regen/necromutation/sublimation over daevas any day 13:16:23 (of course new xom would also have to remain dangerous, but would hopefully be far more useful and less annoying) 13:17:29 xom could occasionally give hp/mp for kills 13:17:38 i wouldn't say he should all the time, though 13:17:48 bleh. I'm still experiencing the corruption 13:17:55 xom could do with being buffed a lot, really; hardly anyone uses him in an attempt to win at the moment 13:18:23 Zannick: right 13:18:24 xom is a good deal worse than GOD_NO_GOD 13:18:54 there's some scumming possible, but that's it 13:19:10 new xom would also kindly avoid giving out as much annoying statdrain 13:19:20 the problem is that negative effects hurt more than positive effects help, just due to being negative 13:19:31 you may get some help when you don't need it, and get hit all the time which may actually kill you 13:19:34 a random buff doesn't help your survival chances much; a random nerf at the wrong time can kill you 13:19:47 so the upsides need to be very large to outweigh the downsides 13:20:02 acting more in high tension would be nice, since you barely ever actually see him cast spells on you at points where it'd be useful 13:20:12 new xom would act more in high tension yes 13:20:20 (and he does nicer things in higher tension already anyway) 13:20:21 there were two large nerfs to Xom: 1. mutations cap, and 2. removal of Xom armour 13:20:42 having 80 naked AC was good :) 13:20:58 how often do xom players die during low tension compared to high tension? is there any easy way to get the statistics? 13:21:01 stonemail? i thought that was just one of his random spell possibilities ie you'd almost never actually see it 13:21:11 xom armour 13:21:18 MarvinPA: yes, but the chances of him acting when the help could be useful is pretty negligible 13:21:23 ridiculous +AC mutations 13:21:30 oh i see 13:21:39 kilobyte: right, hence "acting more in high tension would be nice, since you barely ever actually see him cast spells on you at points where it'd be useful" :P 13:21:55 they were changed so you can't get more than 3 scale mutations at once 13:22:07 also, many "positive" effects are so minor they aren't going to save your life anyway 13:22:30 MarvinPA: I think the worst part is that the effects are contemplated only on a Xom tick once in a large while 13:22:58 so no matter how badly he would want to help you, he just gets no roll 13:23:06 yeah 13:23:11 eugh 13:23:37 i think a huge improvement would just be to make him at least not do boring things like statdrain you all the time, anyway 13:23:40 as a preliminary, would it be reasonable to get rid of that and tone down the statdain? 13:24:28 where by get rid of I mean let xom act irrespectively of ticks in high tension 13:24:48 (and then fix that to be reasonable, if it somehow overpowers xom) 13:24:55 ((or otherwise breaks him)) 13:28:21 03kilobyte * rbff156f45b12 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abl-show.cc output.cc player.cc player.h viewgeom.cc): Use ZP rather than XP for Zot abilities. 13:28:33 03kilobyte * r786bcc93499a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Zot Points, for use in ZotDef once the xp pool is removed. 13:29:21 zotpoints! 13:29:22 awesome 13:31:36 mm, xom logic looks fun 13:31:46 does this mean you can actually train your character's skills in zotdef now? 13:37:18 oh, other stuff: making disint do irresistible damage to statues instead of instakilling them 13:37:58 ais523: yeah 13:37:59 which would allow applying it to normal statues as well as just ocs/silver statues (ocs would probably need toning down though, maybe just lower act speed) 13:38:26 ais523: quite a buff, but it's not like anyone won a non-buggy game yet to the best of my knowledge 13:38:37 (because interesting theats aren't really very interesting if you can instakill them with a single reasonably common item) 13:38:39 MarvinPA: ice statues and roxanne too? 13:38:49 dunno 13:39:13 kilobyte: I think part of the issue is just having a single character in a tower defence game; most such games give you infinite LOS that works round corners 13:39:17 and have the character off the map 13:39:22 roxanne is magic or something, she's not shatter/lrd vulnerable either 13:39:26 so it's hard to balance it the same way as other tower defence games 13:39:32 MarvinPA: what about adding a resistance? Statues would have a vulnerability there. 13:40:22 ais523: it's not like you have a chance unless you fight at a single choke point 13:40:28 btw, when's the large Crawl tourney (not the one this week)? I can't remember 13:40:36 kilobyte: well, tower defence games aren't about fighting, typically, that's the whole point 13:40:42 kilobyte: I just pushed the current version of worley-abyss to github. I believe it's rather abyssy now https://github.com/bhickey/crawl/commit/6c98aa8c42d23d4b2c007758128840953040fcf7 13:40:50 whereas ZotDef definitely is 13:40:51 ais523: august, usually 13:40:59 hmm, thanks 13:41:05 MarvinPA: orange and silvers would have rDisint---, regular statues a smaller level 13:41:31 hmm... that could work, how would it interact with the existing MR check disint has though? 13:41:34 bmh: cool, lemme catch a shop before it closes though 13:41:52 mhmm 13:41:56 rDisint- means no mr check? 13:42:06 MarvinPA: not a bad idea... although currently statues have +inf MR 13:42:10 currently the density of the level is a function of XL. The more experienced you are, the sparser the abyss gets. 13:42:16 monqy: possibly, yeah 13:42:34 that could work 13:43:52 where can I find a guide to vault syntax? 13:44:24 -!- ais523_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:44:32 docs/develop/levels 13:44:32 in the crawl source tree: docs/develop/levels/ 13:46:35 dpeg: Prune away! 13:46:35 Keskitalo: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 13:59:39 Hi Keskitalo! 14:00:14 regarding god healing: as always, XL is a terrible parameter to use 14:17:06 dpeg: Linley's latest, a two-stage demo of Angry Moth is fantastic 14:18:10 Linley's still around? 14:18:11 bmh: initial abyss (after getting there or &^R) uses the old algorithm 14:18:34 kilobyte: yeah. I haven't replaced it yet 14:18:42 bmh: also, sparse is good in the abyss, isn't it? more space for running around 14:19:03 ais523: more lines of fire on you 14:19:20 bmh: but it's space to run that matters more than anything else 14:19:40 with enough space to run, you can more or less guarantee not being hit at all, with swiftness involved 14:19:43 bmh: also, I see there's a huge number of disconnected bubbles. They could happen in the old system but were very rare. This version has many tiny bubbles and some larger structures, yet you can't generally infinitely in a rough direction. 14:19:57 whereas in the cramped spaces, you have to fight, and fighting is generally a bad idea in the abyss 14:20:23 ais523: Linley's made lots of games since Crawl, yeah 14:20:39 (insert missing verbs in the last sentence :p sorry :p) 14:21:02 kilobyte: I just need to tune the sparseness parameter upward and the cell size downward, then. At a certain threshhold the graph should be connected with very high probability 14:21:50 MarvinPA: the last message by Brent Ross on r.g.r.m has him fuming about the then-new change that you can beat a statue to death with brute force. Ultimately, he says, the new devteam will turn statues into ordinary monsters, completely missing the point. And nobody ever heard of Brent. 14:22:45 haha, well i'm not sure what the point is then if they're only supposed to be killable with disintegration :P 14:23:40 or rather, if the only way to kill them does so instantly 14:23:54 well, like an hour ago we had people suggest mostly removing disint on statues on this very channel :p 14:24:21 might be useful to spend a moment wondering what Brent meant :) 14:25:22 dpeg: which thread? 14:25:31 years ago 14:25:42 best to search google groups for "Brent Ross" or so 14:27:17 Groups' search is broken, and can't find the post that easily 14:27:58 doy: <3 blizzard demon 14:28:34 -!- syllogism- has quit [] 14:30:35 MarvinPA: to solve the question: old (Brent-style) statues are unique obstacles, which require a special, key item. That can be a lot more interesting than having them just be immobile monsters which can be killed like any other monster with a lot of HP. I definitely see where Brent is coming from. 14:31:33 i can see that, i just don't think they make for a very interesting threat when that key item kills them instantly 14:32:10 They'll be even less interesting as bland monsters. 14:32:50 Old-style, the presence of a statue would give you the minitask of "find disintegration", sometimes coupled with "use blink/speed/whatever to bypass the statue" 14:33:21 well, i wouldn't be against, for example, disintegration being the only way to damage them (but it not killing them instantly) - i think that'd be an improvement on the current state 14:33:38 MarvinPA: oh, I agree with that 14:34:20 MarvinPA: sounds too much like an acension kit to me. "Find a wDis for use on statues. Make sure not to use it elsewhere!" 14:34:38 bmh: it's not 14:35:43 disintegration isn't that uncommon and also has other uses (could be made more interesting if some of the proposals to allow it to break stone at higher evocation levels are implemented, too) 14:35:52 if disint becomes the only way to harm statues, what of ice statues? 14:36:11 also: what of felids 14:36:16 https://gist.github.com/963220 <- baby's first vault 14:36:23 actually, I'd say that the disint puzzles in Crawl are quite reminiscent of the ascension kit from NetHack, but that that's not a bad thing 14:36:47 I like puzzles! 14:36:57 but it works better in NetHack because you have an actual ability to choose which parts of it you should aim for; but simultaneously worse because there's not enough of a tradeoff for it in NetHack 14:37:17 it'd work better in NetHack if you could only guarantee half an ascension kit or so, and need to do dangerous grinding to get more than that 14:38:32 no idea how to deal with felids (surely they're already in a lot of trouble if zot:5 gets orange crystal statues?) 14:39:15 not if the new veh proposal gets implemented, allowing them to bind wands :P 14:39:17 although i'd say they should act less often if they weren't instakillable, so bypassing them would be a reasonable alternative 14:39:30 MarvinPA: I agree with what you say 14:39:38 as you can tell from felids you don't need disint 14:40:05 teleapport works fine if you wish to get past OCS on zot 5 without disint 14:40:29 right, landing in view of one of them can be a nasty surprise though :P 14:40:32 kilobyte: I've fixed the "bubble" problem you mentioned 14:44:36 bmh: on the first try I got into a bubble with diameter ~20 :( 14:44:46 'eh? 14:44:49 it sounds like something is out of sync 14:45:26 what's the commit ID at the top? 14:46:42 6c98aa8c42d23d4b2c007758128840953040fcf7 14:47:04 -!- eith has quit [] 14:47:13 I just pushed 961d165af5fd a few minutes ago 14:47:25 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 14:47:46 hang on, going to push some more stuff... 14:48:06 are you on a 32-bit or 64-bit machine? 14:49:52 64 14:50:06 ok. the version that's current has the buggy worley noise that breaks on 64-bit machines 14:51:24 -!- Wensley has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:51:59 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 14:53:04 kilobyte: ok. I just pushed a version that should be architecture agnostic 14:55:40 %256 might not work if the value is signed, you'd want &255 14:56:08 (didn't check signedness, just diff) 15:00:13 it's unsigned 15:00:55 -!- eith has quit [] 15:01:02 still quite a lot of bubbles :( 15:01:05 http://sprunge.us/PMjf 15:01:20 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 15:02:58 ᛥ=reachable? 15:02:58 and the gateway entombed 15:04:17 ᛥ is my glyph for stone 15:04:22 oh 15:06:27 try auto-exploring and look at the travel time 15:07:42 bubbles or not, the behavior I'm seeing is that the player can travel until the abyss jumps 15:11:48 MarvinPA: orb_monky_within_orb may be missing the line where the '!' glyphs are turned in to traps or floor. 15:11:57 A bunch of connected bubbles would make for a more interesting abyss than the current random thing. 15:12:49 oh hm 15:12:57 yeah, it's missing both the trap transforms, my bad 15:14:54 bmh: it seems to work like a typical percolation scheme: you sometimes get into a very small bubble, if you don't, you typically can walk a pretty long distance. 15:15:23 usually, though, you have to backtrace most of the time. This is easy with no opposition, but when anything comes... 15:16:24 kilobyte: do you have any ideas for solving the small bubble problem? 15:17:58 draw random giant lines through the abyss 15:22:03 a random noise will always generate bubbles without some sort of postprocessing 15:22:54 an easy post-process might be to iterate over LOS radius and carve a path 15:23:06 -!- eith has quit [] 15:23:27 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 15:25:51 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:28:11 Bon soir 15:28:48 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:29:32 moin 15:29:54 and its: bonsoir. One word 15:29:58 like bonjour 15:30:04 Merda! 15:30:24 03MarvinPA * r469431b3737a 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Don't allow avoiding good god wrath by swapping via another good god 15:30:24 Even if it does mean "bon soir" 15:30:36 03MarvinPA * rce10f6eab308 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/descript/gods.txt mon-stuff.cc religion.cc): Remove Makhleb's MP on kills 15:30:37 03MarvinPA * rb346ad7f954e 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/zot.des: Add missing traps to orb_monky_within_orb 15:30:39 MarvinPA: thank gods! 15:30:56 MarvinPA: you just removed a lot of appeal from Makhleb :) 15:31:39 but the god can surely take it 15:31:41 don't you think the healing along is plenty? vehumet already does mp, anyway 15:31:56 Makhleb was one of the all-purpose gods... but probably still is 15:32:12 yeah, i think/hope so still 15:32:27 what's the current win percentage for Makhleb versus say, TSO? 15:32:40 win percentage won't tell you much 15:32:43 very hard to get meaningful numbers 15:32:49 I'm not sure it's an accurate measure. 15:32:54 but when a god is a standard convert-late-game for a single passive ability it's a bit much don't you think 15:33:10 tso? 15:33:14 no 15:33:33 while your nerfing, I think that abyss knights starting with a +2+2 weapon is a bit much.. maybe +1+1 15:33:45 Most people going TSO already have strong char ready for extended endgame. 15:34:02 probably 15:34:10 i'd like to adjust TSO's healing too, just haven't thought of the best way to do it yet 15:34:28 turn it into regen 15:34:51 A general improvement would be dismissing pointless tiny monsters. They're a source of piety, food and healing... not good. 15:34:58 casmith789: active??? 15:35:05 sorry? 15:35:16 dpeg: piety, food yes, healing no 15:35:16 dpeg: agreed, that's exactly what i'd like to do, just unsure how best to implement it :) 15:35:17 casmith789: an active regeneration ability won't do any good, imo 15:35:21 dpeg: As in, quit spawning rats when you get tough? 15:35:24 no passive 15:35:31 you kill stuff and you get regen 15:35:36 like pbd 15:35:37 or you mean in terms of not spawning them at all? 15:35:38 bmh: yes. And there's also the inconvenience 15:35:39 but without corpses 15:35:42 (that'd also be good) 15:36:02 bmh: less that and more "quit spawning rats as the game progresses" 15:36:10 If tough monsters spawn and there's a rat nearby, that is slightly meaningful. A single rat is not even meaningful on D:2. We don't want it. 15:36:18 bmh: such as not to make generation gameable or anything like that 15:36:20 yeah, it's really silly that loads of the monsters spawned in pan are 5s and 4s :( 15:36:26 MarvinPA: for example 15:36:46 kilobyte: around? 15:36:50 aww, making pan even less of a 3 runer choice? 15:36:51 MarvinPA: even most 3s and 2s and a good few 1s are pathetic :( 15:36:56 casmith789: that 15:37:01 is fully unrelated 15:37:03 monqy: we could set "max spawn turn" and then shuffle the monsters 15:37:04 stop whining in advance 15:37:23 I played a bit of 100Rogues and I envied their monster generation: essentially all monsters are placed in rooms. This makes everyone so much more relevant. 15:37:51 in one game, cockroaches might stop spawning at turn 8148, megabats vanish at turn 1233, etc. 15:37:59 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 15:38:02 monqy: doy is changing demons and their tiers 15:38:03 I was thinking something a bit more location-based 15:38:04 no I am not whining in advance 15:38:14 dpeg: right. the demons branch is great 15:38:16 I am giving a gameplay affect 15:38:41 effect* 15:38:42 bmh: tiny monsters can still spawn, just not alone, or only near other tiny monsters 15:38:45 casmith789: which is entirely outside of intended play 15:38:55 casmith789: therefore afaik crawl dev doesn't care 15:39:13 casmith789: nobody is suggesting s/1-2-3demons/4-5demons/ 15:39:33 dpeg: do you like my vault? https://gist.github.com/963220 15:39:41 um, I know? that is entirely irrelevant 15:39:42 bmh: I was thinking something a bit more location-based than time-based 15:40:16 just making the current trends along the lines of "less rats as you get deeper" far stricter 15:40:27 and removing a few pathetic things from generation and moving them earlier 15:40:37 like no ufetubi in pan; yes ufetubi somewhere earlier 15:41:26 I always want ufetubi to be 'uberfetus' 15:41:32 bmh: not sure I like X & L together. Also at most one L altar, I think. A bunch of X altars might be okay. 15:42:09 bmh: so use NSUBST. Also, what is the y for? 15:42:14 -!- purge has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:42:44 dpeg: ack. a mistake 15:42:54 casmith789: we're talking about removing pointless monsters. How does that change Pan's (non)appeal for 3-runerS? 15:43:30 oh, fewer monsters are spawning altogether? 15:43:43 -!- ZChris13_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:43:56 pan will probably get pretty sparse then 15:44:05 Pan levels could be smaller 15:44:09 there will be hardly any monsters in pan then yes 15:44:11 dpeg: just imagine Xom playing all sorts of tricks and practical jokes, while Lugonu is there sulking and complaining about having to listen to the moron 15:44:13 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:44:24 -!- ZChris13_ is now known as ZChris13 15:44:28 smaller pan levels with tougher monsters would be great 15:44:39 yes 15:44:39 typical recipe for comedy right there 15:44:47 ais523: Xom is a member of the Canonical Pantheon, after all. So an enemy to Lugonu, no matter how demented. 15:44:58 eith: sounds like zigs without loot 15:45:05 dpeg: indeed 15:45:06 assume for a moment that you are in pan at the "correct" time - you have an xl27 crusader with 30ac/30ev and tso. All monsters in pan will be easy save panlords unless it isn't a one on one 15:45:27 ortoslon: except with a different layout and monster set 15:45:32 the implication would be that neither would be there by choice; Xom would mostly just not care or enjoy the chance to taunt Lugonu (he's one of the few gods that /would/ try that), Lugonu would hate it 15:45:41 I imagine the gods aren't placing the altars there themselves 15:46:04 xom plants altars himself, and lugonu corrupts altars 15:46:15 this reminds me of one zig idea I had (of several :) -- a small room, pitting @ vs few (maybe just one) Pan lords, surrounded by glass and dozens imps etc. cheering on the outside 15:46:41 that's been suggested endlessly on the Tavern as a portal vault, hasn't it? 15:47:11 but is still and old idea of mine for a special zig storey :) 15:47:22 I'd come up with speech lines for the imps 15:51:47 Log is not completely visible under some circumstances (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3950) by Narretz 15:52:36 dpeg: I really want to introduce an overly complicated HMM for speech 15:54:15 bmh: HMM? 15:54:20 hidden markov model 15:54:28 we have a mildly complicated speech system already! 15:55:15 there's a lot of fun (and unnecessary) language modelling we could do to spice up monster speech 15:56:34 monster speech is quite fine already now, imo 15:58:22 dpeg: where are lines of speech stored? 15:59:18 dat/database/ and then somewhere 16:02:07 kilobyte: why not use gold instead of zp? 16:05:02 ??rod of smiting 16:05:03 rod of smiting[1/1]: A {rod} which allows you to {smite}. Any questions? 16:05:03 galehar: 1. there's no source of gold, 2. it would break the bazaar invocation since you have tens thousands of xp by that time 16:06:06 rescaling $currency gains might work... I'm just not sure how, since there are costs of 1-2 zp and costs of 15k 16:06:35 1: every monster dying would give you gold of course. 2: Well, yes. It would break bazaar. 16:07:05 It's just that tower defense game all use gold for buying stuff (I think so, I haven't played that many) 16:07:18 so that seem appropriate 16:08:50 true! 16:10:34 we can scale shop cost too. Everything cost x100 or x1000 or whatever. 16:11:53 or just have invocations that had, say, a 1% chance of losing you 1zp when used 16:13:30 should fellow slimes eat your oklobs in ZD? 16:14:38 slimes don't eat monsters, do they? 16:15:19 eat your oklobs? from the games I watched, I recall fellow slimes gathering around oklobs with items under them (trying to get the item, I presume), but never attacking (just gathering and waiting there) unless the oklob happened to go hostile 16:16:23 the last time I tried worshipping Jiyva the slimes decided to eat the darts that were sitting under my oklob forest 16:16:31 and they got there by killing all my toys 16:17:54 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: bye] 16:18:05 where is zot def orb rot handled? I'm only seeing monster generation code in zotdef.cc 16:20:41 any one able to look at cao, DragonJones has no config and even if he resets it in the advanced options its still blank? 16:22:18 I just created a new character and it has the same problem. 16:23:40 slimes kill all your plants in zotdef yes 16:23:53 :( 16:23:57 they didn't use to though 16:24:01 is this by design or oversight? 16:24:03 I must be living in the past 16:25:57 I think it may be a result of the in zotdef monsters kill plants if they are in their way even if they're on the same team 16:27:26 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 16:29:48 yeah... that should be patched 16:30:38 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 16:31:04 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 16:33:09 oh no 16:33:12 that was a bugfix 16:38:59 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:wont_do 16:39:26 That should contain reason for all points, if someone is in a mood to add them :) 16:40:09 ghallberg: these have been discussed to death. The point of that list is ... to list what we won't do. 16:40:30 Ok, but it would be nice to see the reasons as well... 16:40:36 dpeg: he's right. 16:40:51 I guess "no selling items" is because it's tedious to carry all your stuff there? 16:40:52 surely the point of the list is that people are fed up of giving the reasons (and usually that the reasons exist elsewhere, or in multiple places) :P 16:40:55 maybe... 16:41:03 If we don't want to discuss it, we should put the reasons once and for all 16:41:30 MarvinPA: true, that's why nobody bothered to put them 16:41:40 but to new players, it feels arbitrary 16:41:56 I've seen arguments on tavern about it, at least 16:42:02 Some of them have reasons, it just needs to be a short sentence, like the ones that are there. 16:42:08 adding reasons makes it seem like it's open to discussion, i guess could just give a very brief summary of the main reason if possible 16:42:40 MarvinPA: That's all I wanted, i like the explanation for poison, Draconians, Dual Wield ec. 16:42:53 but only if somebody who knows the reason doesn't have anything better to do, though :P 16:43:12 MarvinPA: Of course, as I said, if someone's in the mood :P 16:43:18 heh 16:43:21 THe alternative is me asking here and getting flamed to death :P 16:43:48 * galehar loads up his flame thrower, just in case. 16:44:11 Why can't I sell stuff in shops!? 16:44:26 That's how it works in nethack! 16:44:37 ghallberg: you can't sell stuff in shops because shop owners don't buy items 16:44:57 good one 16:44:59 Eronarn: That's just a flavour reason. Not good enough. 16:45:03 shop owners are robots 16:45:11 shop owners don't like you 16:45:16 They're all pawn shops! Now explain it! :D 16:45:21 robots who don't like you 16:45:48 shops are actually shop mimics that eat gold and crap items 16:45:53 MarvinPA: It's you isn't it? You're the robot. 16:45:53 thermodynamics prevents them from working in reverse 16:46:14 ghallberg: It would encourage the incredible tedium behaviour of grabing all the dungeon trash to sell it for gold. 16:46:17 actually just use that as a one-word explanation for why you can't sell to shops 16:46:20 'Thermodynamics.' 16:46:22 now, ad it to the wiki! ;) 16:46:22 ghallberg: you have no idea how often I had to explain why shops don't buy. 16:46:35 Won't do anymore :) But it was great to see 100Rogues's shops. 16:46:37 galehar: Thanks, that's what I thought. 16:46:56 galehar: Copy paste that to the wiki now and you're done ;) 16:47:01 galehar: Bbbbut what if you could only sell randartse!? 16:47:09 there was a big argument about shops not buying items on the tavern, right? heheheh 16:47:39 dpeg: good point. Maybe shops should bug artefacts ;) 16:47:46 there are deifintely ways to do item buying that wouldn't contradict Crawl's philosophy or balance; there's just no point, as it would add complication for no reason 16:47:48 *definitely 16:47:54 * dpeg enters his panzer :) 16:48:04 nemelex xobeh almost buys items 16:48:07 ais523: yes 16:48:17 probably just putting a link to the philosophy section of the manual and letting people work it out themselves sounds easiest, anyway :P 16:48:20 monqy: which forum? 16:48:27 as in, within the tavern? 16:48:34 game design discussion 16:48:56 MarvinPA: Talking of robots that don't like people, are you named after the one from Hitchikers Guide? 16:49:26 i am indeed :) 16:49:51 somehow most people guess that the PA stands of Pennsylvania or weird things like that :P 16:50:14 I don't even have a guess for that :P 16:50:30 MarvinPA: I've seen that screenname in a lot of places, and I'm always afraid to ask if they're you XD 16:50:30 Personal Assistant is the only thing that pops up. 16:51:21 monqy: I still can't find it 16:51:29 "PA" is just meant to be short for "the paranoid android", i thought that was more obvious :( 16:52:02 is he paranoid? I remember him as mostly depressed 16:52:37 ah, the god proposal for a god that allows selling 16:52:46 ? 16:52:51 yeah, he's just depressed really but he's just referred to as "marvin the paranoid android" by one of the characters anyway i think 16:53:09 ais523: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=158 16:53:23 ah, that's a really old thread 16:53:29 classic tavern 16:53:33 PA in crawl means poison arrow and my mind immediately went to that as soon as you took the PA off MarvinPA's name, but I always just assumed it was Marvin from the Guide yeah 16:53:43 most recent post was in January 16:54:11 it's confusing enough that both NetHack and Crawl have devs called Chris in real life and Marvin as their nickname 16:54:23 galehar: "paranoid android" sounds like a play on words that might only work in english, if you were reading the french edition (because you're right, he's definitely more depressed than anything) 16:54:56 MarvinPA: I understood your nick from day one -- without ever having read Adams! 16:55:04 :D 16:55:26 yeah, poison arrow's such a good spell 16:55:31 it's obvious why someone would name themselves after it 16:55:37 (but you should read the series :P) 16:55:43 I'd like to call Marvin something of a misanthrope as well :) 16:55:59 MarvinPA: too fresh, will pick it up in 270 years though. 16:56:05 heh 16:56:18 by then it'll be old enough that we can incorporate it into crawl 16:56:23 yes 16:56:38 or rather, the descendants of dpeg. mpeg? 16:56:53 hi 16:57:04 Crawl leadership is hereditary now? 16:57:30 due: Hi! 16:59:37 FR: pseudorandarts, the enchanted weapons and armor of players who have ascended, named after that player 16:59:57 there's a huge debate about rewardng winners through to future games 17:00:07 Wensley: would they be randartified to prevent modification? 17:00:21 I fear you might just end up with really insanely good randart weapons if you did that 17:00:34 I suppose so, but is this really a big discussion? I never go on the forum :P 17:00:39 (a +9/+9 executioner's axe of speed would be considered really insanely good, I imagine) 17:00:46 Wensley: it comes up from time to time, often in ##crawl-dev 17:00:57 huh, I guess I've never been around for that 17:01:03 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:39 player gods... 17:01:47 hehe player gods <3 17:02:07 Wensley: i personally never read the forum; i know of a vew other devs who do likeiwse. 17:02:07 Would be fun for local play: When you ascend a random god gets renamed :P 17:02:12 FR: ziggurat alternative: Hall of Champions, where you find the non-undead shades of players who have ascended, in ever-increasing numbers 17:06:51 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 17:06:59 Ok, this might be a really bad idea which has been discussed before: Auto-id of generic items that you've already seen? 17:07:26 I find it edious to try on 50 different robes +1 looking for resistances. 17:07:45 by the way, could everyone check out http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/player-status and tell me if it works on your browser? It's only been tested in IE8, Aurora, Chrome, and Iceweasel 17:07:57 ghallberg: you have a point but at the same time, you're spoiled rotten :P 17:08:09 seems to work in firefox 3.5 17:08:10 hey Wensley? 17:08:11 Wensley: Seems fine in Opera. 17:08:19 yes Napkin? 17:08:28 could you change the watch links to http instead of https? 17:08:30 dpeg: How do you mean? 17:08:39 can do 17:08:44 there seems to be some problem and we switched to http for now for testing 17:09:22 in case anyone was using the direct link https://tiles.crawl.develz.org instead of the link from the topic - please use http://tiles.crawl.develz.org for now 17:09:34 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:10:16 dpeg: in oiseaux_autumnal_temple_12, there's floor tiled as deep water 17:10:50 On a totally different note: >THe SC2 stream I'm listening to mentioned a 27-sided die. Feels appropriate. 17:11:41 -!- elly has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:11:52 Napkin: switched to http, but they're not working at the moment either 17:11:54 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 17:12:04 ghallberg: about robe identification. Worship ash ;) 17:12:21 galehar: Well yeah :P 17:12:39 I dunno, it was just a thought. 17:13:16 working fine for me, Wensley 17:14:02 could someone please start a game at http://crawl.develz.org/webtiles for testing purposes? 17:15:07 thanks, ghallberg 17:15:18 kilobyte: I cannot compile tiles. 17:15:23 Seriously, tiles is hard! :D 17:15:47 ghallberg: in old versions, even plain robes could be resistance. We'd wear _all_ of them, not just the runed/glowing ones :) 17:15:48 Napkin: http gives me a blank black screen in both aurora and chrome, whereas https gives an error page 17:15:59 dpeg: Ah :) 17:16:13 dpeg: Then I count myself lucky. 17:16:39 I personally tried on every single robe in one game 17:16:53 in Elf, Lair, Orc, Vaults, Snake and Zot. And D. 17:17:12 tbh I used to do that aswell 17:17:30 Though Glowing etc only indicated the + 17:18:22 03kilobyte * r8ca271273d2b 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/temple.des: Fix a stranded stone arch masquerading as deep water. 17:18:23 03kilobyte * rcb2951402acc 10/crawl-ref/source/tilepick.cc: Fix the exit_hell tile not being used. 17:18:24 03kilobyte * r15e7595ec402 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/des/branches/hells.des tileview.cc): Radical re-tiling of the Vestibule. 17:18:26 03kilobyte * rb69944e8948b 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (29 files in 3 dirs): Denzi's "infernal flower" tile set. 17:18:30 03dpeg * r43ecef0e1b6d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/temple.des: Autumnal temple by oiseaux. 17:18:54 ghallberg: it is true that some auto-id would be helpful... not sure how to get a good system 17:19:17 it did work previously for you, Wensley? 17:19:29 Napkin: yes, yesterday 17:19:47 erm.. very weird 17:19:51 kilobyte: good catch with the arch, I saw it but thought it'd be from the level where I tested it on 17:20:08 dpeg: My suggestion is just, any +x that you have identified before. No cursed stuff, no brands. 17:20:17 dpeg: currently there are three tiers of un-id'd equipment, plain, runed/glowing, and artifacts with unique un-id'd descriptions. there could be another tier between plain and unrand, to show better-quality enchanted items 17:20:34 the new Vestibule may be controversial, but then, this awesome tile set has been rotting on Mantis for half a year, and if it's too drastic a jump, the revert button is over there ---> 17:20:36 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 17:21:58 kilobyte: yes, generally go ahead with stuff like this. Much better to see it in game and get feedback, and revert if necessary, than to have stuff rot. 17:22:31 Random crazy idea of the day: What do you think about making Tornado Air+Tloc instead of just Air? (Think before you type, please :) 17:22:34 Napkin: it works for me on chrome 17:22:42 dpeg: +1 17:22:51 yeah.. i checked chrome & ff4 17:22:55 dpeg: +1 a lot more than Air/Conj. 17:23:03 Wensley.. get rid of browser cache? 17:23:07 restart browser? 17:25:19 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:26:48 dpeg: Sounds.. Reasonable yeah. 17:26:49 due: well, that's where we were coming from... still some stretch to make the flavour fit, but I reckon it could be done 17:26:50 dpeg: i'd rather see it be pure air and weaker 17:26:50 to match airstrike 17:26:50 there is no overlap at all between air/tloc currently 17:26:50 so.. moving from https to http seems to have removed all the terrible lag-spikes 17:26:50 in case anyone noticed 17:26:50 so it would feel tacked on 17:26:51 -!- clouded has joined ##crawl-dev 17:26:51 Eronarn: that doesn't mean we can't add some flayva 17:26:51 due: 'airstrike but bigger' is just fine flavor 17:26:51 I don't believe that Tornado will work well as pure Air spell. It sounded good in theory, but it does not seem to have improved matters. 17:26:51 dpeg: because the damage on it is ridiculous 17:26:52 it is just by size a spell of storm proportions 17:26:52 so? 17:26:52 it pretty clearly would not be broken if it did only 1 HP per round 17:27:11 this implies that there is some point between 1 HP and its current too-high damage where the damage matches 'L9 air spell' in suitability 17:27:13 Eronarn: I refuse to have a spell which works only on late 3 runers but sucks halfling balls in full games 17:27:57 Eronarn: currently you can have it before entering any rune branches or deep V, with good aptitudes and victory dancing 17:28:05 kilobyte: that's not a good comparison because if you make it dual school in two completely unrelated schools it will be unusable except for full games 17:28:25 that's fine 17:28:32 with Tloc/Air, we could make it level 8 17:28:48 How about making it L10 pure air? 17:28:50 I'm wary about Tloc, it is very rarely trained (since it has just CBlink) 17:28:51 there are already 2 L8 air spells 17:28:56 what if tornado did less damage to things that were on the ground, and the current damage was for flyign things? Like a reverse shatter 17:29:02 unless cbl is 7, maybe i'm misremebering 17:29:04 galehar: I thought about that, but didn't want to propose it... the creeeeeeeep 17:29:29 kilobyte: that just means that Tloc _needs_ higher spells, we can start right here 17:29:33 seriously, just make it do less damage 17:30:19 go look at shatter for comparison 17:30:28 it's at least as easy to train up as Air-only tornado is 17:30:29 our current system is weird... a spell which is meant to be exactly as good as the top Fire/Ice ones needs to be either of higher level just because it's pure school... 17:30:31 and it's considered underpowered 17:30:46 Eronarn: and no one uses it 17:30:48 no 17:31:10 there is a major difference between shatter and tornado 17:31:17 kilobyte: the whole point of multi-school is to make it harder -- what is weird here? 17:31:44 Eronarn: the problem is, you have to SERIOUSLY focus to have it usable in 3-runers, but it sucks in 15s. And very few people go for 6 or 10 runes. 17:32:16 kilobyte: that sounds like a perfectly valid spell niche for me 17:32:30 1) no-one used shatter before because it was dual school but now it's single school it gets used 2) shatter's a lot worse against hard monsters than tornado, shatter does less damage vs fliers which are most of the hard monsters whereas tornado does the same vs whatever (or even more to fliers, not sure) 17:32:38 'you get it around the end of the game, and it's good for a while, but won't get you through to 15 runes' 17:32:51 casmith789: yeah, that's because the latter is supposed to be as good as Firestorm, not weaker (and not stronger, so first attempts overshot) 17:33:31 kilobyte: how can it be as good while being same level and single school? 17:33:36 shatter-level damage, but vs. more kinds of monsters, and spread out over several turns seems like a perfectly fine niche to me 17:33:43 make tornado as good as LCS 17:33:58 remember, you can cast stuff while tornado-ing 17:34:13 so it doesn't need to do a ton of damage to be worth casting 17:34:30 casmith789: have you seen the spell usage stats from the last tournament? 17:34:34 LCS does 80 damage right? so make it do 10 per turn over 3 turns. Then if you have 3 targets it's better than LCS. And it won't kill everything 17:34:47 no, I haven't, link them? 17:35:30 shatter is great (and pretty easy to get castable) for v:8, elf:5, zot:5, tomb, it has the downside of being very little use in slime and limited use in hell/pan since most 1s and demon lords fly 17:35:43 overall that seems pretty much fine though 17:35:51 yeah, that's a fine niche for a spell 17:36:04 whereas tornado (and fire/icestorm) are just plain good against everything 17:36:06 if tornado is worse at some things than shatter, and better than others, that is 100% okay 17:36:39 (firestorm and icestorm having a slightly higher portion of their damage be resistible might be nice, for example) 17:37:00 nerfing firestorm and icestorm? seems a little odd, considering they're quite weak already 17:37:26 they're not weak once you have them 17:37:31 they just take a lot of XP to get 17:37:32 weak as in the sense that you have to devote your entire build to getting them 17:37:41 so you have to fall down on other areas of your build 17:38:10 using firestorm and icestorm make your midgame much harder 17:38:15 yeah, but once you actually have it, you're basically set 17:38:37 I'm guessing you think this is a bad thing 17:38:41 nope 17:38:42 conj/fire and conj/ice are solid all game, most of my FE/IE have a storm ready to cast by near the end of the game without explicitly focusing on it 17:38:56 do you go vehumet? 17:38:59 i don't think a change to the resist % will change much 17:39:12 i'm not strongly against it but it doesn't seem to address any actual need 17:39:30 fire/ice storm are the spells of choice for if you want a nerdy blaster mage who can't do muhc of anything but blast 17:39:36 that is a totally valid archetype 17:40:19 if the nerf isn't harsh then sure, no problems. But if it is harsh enough that it puts people off getting high end spells, that's a bad thing, because pure casters are quite weak already. Unless you nerf everything else to compensate 17:43:20 increasing the resistable part wouldn't be out of line... most people dont even realize that the "ice" part of ice storm is only a quarter of the overall damage 17:45:12 i didn't realize i could kill orbs of fire with firestorm at first 17:46:03 yes, the irresistable damage is spoiler-like information 17:46:54 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:48:43 greensnark: How did you intend to handle MONS_??? enums when splitting monster definitions out into Lua? Pre-defined enums? 17:49:13 FR: Fimbulvetr, L9 Ice/Conj/Summ, summons frost giants to herald the end of the world 17:49:28 hah 17:49:46 ice/summ, sure 17:49:50 ice/conj/summ? nothx 17:49:55 kilobyte: actually, you were talking about generating enum.h -- and thus being able to generate enum data in different formats -- we could generate an importable lua module of enums! 17:50:04 also probably lower than 9, unless it's a lot of frost giants 17:50:06 however, that still places all of the onus on monster creation pre-compilation. 17:50:11 Wensley: you forgot Fire, Surtr's folks are invited to the party as well 17:50:26 gah! I thought it was just the frost giants :P I have been shown up 17:50:37 due: good idea, but I recall that kilobyte is not so fond of lua 17:50:39 (I still really like the idea of generating enum.h; it's such a kludgy piece of work on its own) 17:50:46 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 17:50:51 edlothiol: Hi! 17:50:51 dpeg: so? :) 17:50:58 * dpeg bows to the tiles master. 17:51:01 dpeg: it has little to do with lua really 17:51:06 hi :) 17:51:10 :D 17:51:17 edlothiol: are you in the credits? 17:51:30 dpeg: heck, webtiles do nothing with lua even. Javascript mostly. 17:52:08 no... webtiles aren't merged (yet) anyway, so I don't know if that would be appropriate 17:52:29 Separating content with back-end always seems like a good move -- if there are no significant speed mali nor compatability breakage. 17:52:36 it doesn't *have* to split them out into Lua, but it would be nice. 17:53:03 All the zap/spell/etc defined structures would do so much better, at least in my opinion, not being as C sources. 17:53:12 due: too bad, it's not plausible to make them fully generated, save compatibility would be a bitch to code 17:53:26 kilobyte: enum.h? 17:53:32 due: yeah 17:53:32 or monsters? 17:53:36 hm. 17:53:54 enum.h contains both enums that go into saves and those which don't 17:54:00 yeah. 17:54:21 galehar: still around? 17:54:24 like, MST_ are in the second group, and they're generated now 17:54:37 dpeg: yes 17:54:37 yes, MST_ generation is nice 17:54:55 galehar: just looked at your new HP tables... I am not an expert, but they look very good to me. 17:55:05 didn't sorear talk about storing string values instead of enums in save files? 17:55:34 dpeg: thanks :) 17:56:02 it's a big nerf to SpBe, but that's the whole point :) 17:56:06 due: it would have a negligible benefit but cost additional complexity. Keeping enums compatible is easy, other parts of save compat not really. 17:56:12 -!- ophanim has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:56:25 yeah. 17:56:32 SpBe kind of suck, but KoBe are unstoppable 17:56:51 I imagine strings would have a more significant impact on save size. 17:57:04 well, presumably the proposed changes would hit all the small berserkers reasonably hard 17:57:17 we could have a "palette" of enum names 17:57:31 kilobyte: nerfed too. My latest proposal is a nerf to low HP race with high fighting. 17:57:32 -!- ophanim has joined ##crawl-dev 17:57:35 but it would do only a minor part of save compat 17:57:50 galehar: yeah, that's good 17:58:08 but then strings instead of enums would benefit splitting monsters into lua -- it could just look up the string in the monsters list and return that definition. 17:58:35 galehar: SpBe are not supposed to be a powerful combo, if they get hit harder than KoBe, it won't be unthematic 17:58:50 exactly 17:58:54 * dpeg hands out nerf hammers to everyone. 17:58:54 and they will be 17:59:11 Sp gets frail3, Ko only frail2 17:59:16 a vile thigh-biter is supposed to be nastier than a fairy ankle-biter :p 17:59:22 nerf actually makes battleaxes and maces now, you need not limit yourself to hammers anymore 17:59:24 Considering I got six or seven SpBes to Zot and only died due to stupidity on my part 17:59:35 I think nerfing SpBe is a good move 17:59:38 (as I am a shit player) 18:01:00 I was about to paste a link to the tables, but it might be a bit late for that 18:01:16 at least for me 18:04:36 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:13:08 -!- Wensley has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:14:14 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:25:06 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 18:28:45 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 18:31:32 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:31:36 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:33:02 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:39:24 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:46:22 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:27 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:04:49 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 19:10:45 Avigdore (L1 SpEn) (D:1) 19:13:00 what? 19:14:25 !lm avigdore crash -log 19:14:25 1. Avigdore, XL1 SpEn, T:138 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.8/Avigdore/crash-Avigdore-20110510-001039.txt 19:14:55 I guess that's a webtiles crash 19:17:26 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:55:11 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:57:05 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:05:58 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 20:27:48 -!- purge has quit [Quit: .] 20:32:24 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:34:15 -!- Textmode has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:35:12 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 20:36:21 is it intentional that curare works on antaeus? 20:36:50 I have some memory that this was originally unintended, and it seems like a bad thing to me 20:37:32 curare in general has issues of course, but it isn't very useful in extended endgame... except that it is an unresistible way of slowing antaeus 20:37:55 curare is weird :( 20:52:14 it would be fine if it only worked on him to the degree that other special needles do 20:52:43 i.e. if it were resistible 20:53:22 sometime maybe I'll try to figure out a better formula for needles and make curare use it also 20:53:58 it would be good if they worked reliably against stuff you'd expect needles to work reliably against, and throwing skill was mainly for getting more duration / making it work against weird stuff or pois resistant stuff 20:55:29 it should be more like confusing touch or pacification with different categories of monsters getting bonuses to their chances to resist 20:56:16 and needles shouldn't be so completely useless without victory dancing throwing a lot 20:56:59 elliptic: i was considering doing that but i got stuck at the "figure out a better formula" bit :P 20:57:13 but yeah, that would be nice 21:04:20 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06:33 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:17:41 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:39:29 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1612 21:48:38 Newest version of crawl-tiles causes my computer to blue sc reen (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3951) by TwoTone 21:56:04 -!- ZChris13_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:59:45 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:59:46 -!- ZChris13_ is now known as ZChris13 22:05:45 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:29:38 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:37:46 is there any reason why summon scorpions can make hostile ones when almost none of the other summon spells do? 23:53:16 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]