00:02:55 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-54-g5b5f660 (32) 00:18:53 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.9-a1-54-g5b5f660 00:26:26 GuraKKa: file a patch then :) 00:29:25 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:59 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 01:34:01 moin 01:44:00 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:11:57 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:21:50 -!- gvdm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:26:10 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:34:54 moin 02:39:08 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:40:58 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 02:41:44 webtiles work awesomely well 02:42:29 yes 02:42:30 doesn't it? 02:42:58 but I found a weird issue 02:43:21 when using X to move about the map, moving the cursor (the yellow thingy) over unexplored regions can reveal things that aren't yet explored 02:43:51 that's.. not really normal, is it? I wonder whether it occurs in normal tiles... 02:44:06 might be 02:57:00 how do you play webtiles? 02:58:52 galehar, http://crawl.develz.org:8080 with a browser that supports (and can be told to allow use of) websockets 02:59:22 galehar, and login with your cdo credentials 02:59:22 thanks 02:59:36 due, I can map things that I have never visited with X. 03:01:15 due, that's clearly a bug 03:01:24 Wow 03:02:03 Very nice. Now if only there were tiles that looked exactly like the Unicode glyphs. :-) Perhaps i’ll get around to contributing such a tile set. 03:02:29 moin :) 03:02:29 due, or maybe not.. it might be a rendering bug 03:02:55 due, things show up in unexplored regions, but they don't seem to match the reality 03:03:20 Wait… what? “You start butchering the giant cockroach corpse with your knife.” I don’t have one. 03:03:21 galehar: chrom(e|ium), firefox 4 and opera 11 at least support websocketd 03:03:28 ion, now you always do 03:03:40 Oh 03:03:46 zaba - update delay? 03:03:50 ion, a butchering knife is implicit now 03:03:53 Napkin, it stays around for a while 03:04:08 oh, didn't see that yet 03:04:15 Napkin, I can still see stuff that's shown up during X'ing over unexplored areas even after I leave X 03:04:23 could you file as bug? 03:04:35 choose cdo webtiles as varian 03:04:40 +t 03:05:08 okay 03:06:11 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:07:08 -!- gvdm has joined ##crawl-dev 03:08:09 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:11:14 thanks :) 03:12:13 -!- GuraKKa has left ##crawl-dev 03:14:11 The 'X' command makes tiles appear in unexplored regions (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3908) by Zaba 03:15:01 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 03:18:09 does anybody else find that 0.8 crawl (tiles) consistently highlights the wrong score after you die (score below current death) 03:20:13 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 03:20:20 Napkin, oh wtf, Gretell reports stuff about webtiles games 03:20:22 that's awesome 03:37:16 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:44:55 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:47:25 gvdm: that's a tiles-unrelated bug 03:47:38 but a valid one? 03:47:50 how'd it make to 0.8? ok, well, i mean, i just noticed it now 03:47:59 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 03:48:05 if someone dies while you are still looking at your death screen inventory 03:48:18 i'm playing locally 03:48:19 it's been there like forever, i think 03:48:23 oh 03:48:28 then it's something else 03:48:48 Zaba :) 03:48:54 can someone point me at a .cc file to begin? 03:49:04 hiscore.cc? 03:49:20 well, I can't point :) 03:49:24 just guessing 03:49:25 cheers 03:50:23 Napkin, ? 03:51:28 does web crawl take a long time to load? 03:51:30 -> Zaba> Napkin, oh wtf, Gretell reports stuff about webtiles games 03:51:35 ah 03:51:39 no, galehar, it shouldn't 03:51:40 galehar, not really 03:51:56 looks like it should be in hiscores_print_list 03:52:01 then the corporate proxy isn't crawl friendly :( 03:52:31 heh, galehar 03:52:41 just looking at the same problem here :) 03:57:03 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 03:59:40 where is the endgame code? 03:59:51 you die, show inventory, show hiscore if applicable 04:00:10 gvdm: grep is your friend! 04:00:15 check you_die or whatever it's called 04:01:36 ouch.ss 04:01:40 cc 04:10:32 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 04:16:03 ok, i've got it working, galehar 04:16:33 Napkin: did anything specific? 04:16:38 do you know which ports you can do a HTTP CONNECT to? 04:16:50 I guess 443 04:17:07 at least the squid3 that I use allowed connect only to 443 and 22 by default 04:17:12 I had to enable 8080 04:18:00 one thing i could try, 1s 04:30:11 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:35:49 galehar? 04:36:29 try http://webtiles.develz.org:443 04:41:37 anyone else behind a proxy? please try it too. 04:44:19 http://crawl.develz.org/webtiles-proxy 04:44:43 * due not proxied. 04:45:22 due :) 04:48:28 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:50:20 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 04:55:39 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:57:05 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 05:01:09 Napkin: doesn't work for me. I think the proxy doesn't like me trying to do a http connect on port 443. Switching to https doesn't work either, but it stays in the "connecting" state instead of immediately throwing me access denied. 05:01:28 But you shouldn't bother too much, this proxy is insane. 05:02:06 I've tried doing some tunneling with it and couldn't. 05:02:30 i tried with the multiple proxies here and they all worked 05:02:45 *-the 05:02:51 pity 05:07:57 well, maybe we can get wss:// working 05:27:17 -!- elly has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:27:48 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 05:46:19 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:47:01 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:47:01 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Please try out Tiles online at http://crawl.develz.org/webtiles | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 05:55:35 Pacra the Basher (L12 OgIE) (Lair:1) 06:31:41 -!- Guest89248 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:31:51 -!- Guest89248 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:36:25 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:38:48 -!- MadCoyote has quit [Quit: Don't talk to me, I'm on my popcorn break] 06:50:03 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:51:54 -!- edlothiol has left ##crawl-dev 07:24:27 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:32:20 Quote from the usability testing report: "The bestpart was running in a berserk rage and tearing the enemies into little pieces, standing on theircorpses and listening to the weeping of their wives". 07:33:03 (from a player, during the post-game interview) 07:33:09 :) 07:33:46 so now, we have to add weeping wives :) 07:34:17 "Trog appreciates the sound of weeping wives of your enemies!" 07:34:18 from what I know, that's a normal day for finnish people, isn't it? 07:35:35 for Norwegians 07:37:10 Excellent report from the Olms, I just finished reading it 07:37:25 I hope I have the time to put it in the wiki soon. 07:38:10 Well, I could put the pdf up as a file somewhere for now. 07:39:47 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 07:42:58 Keskitalo: I think you can upload it on the wiki. 07:43:15 I'll try to do that later tonight. 07:50:41 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 08:00:23 -!- ZorbaBeta has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:00:38 -!- ZorbaBeta has joined ##crawl-dev 08:10:16 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:15:24 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 08:21:30 -!- gvdm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:22:06 how to move a page on the wiki? 08:31:41 It's an admin command, do you have the admin rights? (you see an 'admin' button in the bottom bar, page moving/renaming is behind that) 08:35:37 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:37:49 I have an admin button, but when I click it, there's only "Revert Manager". 08:38:08 I've got DEVELOPER credentials, maybe I need more. 08:38:17 Napkin? 08:38:22 probably 08:40:15 try now, galehar 08:40:45 Napkin: it works, thanks :) 08:41:04 no sweat :) 08:42:32 and how do I create a folder? 08:42:33 !coffee Napkin 08:42:34 * Henzell hands Napkin a pot of caff breve, brewed by Jiyva. 08:42:40 hey Eino :) 08:42:45 how's it going? 08:42:47 Hi Marc! (: 08:43:19 Tired and stressed out actually, but the Dungeon Olms report looked great! 08:43:32 hey, saw topic yet? I sat down during the weekend with Florian and got a first version working! 08:43:42 Ah, missed that! 08:43:44 Oh, kiddo keeping you busy, huh? 08:43:59 Quite curious to read the report! :) 08:44:09 Yeah, between work + baby there's just no time or energy. Half-time job at the university too, I'm expected to further my studies at the same time :) 08:44:28 I try to not stress about it, but I'm really bad at not-stressing. :) 08:44:50 hehe 08:45:29 matter of exercise ;) 08:46:47 I envy you though - I'm am totally bored at work :-/ 08:46:58 Don't remember every playin this much Dungeon Crawl 08:47:09 *ever 08:53:38 Napkin: any idea how to create a folder on the wiki? I've created a skills:start page and moved another page under skills, but it doesn't show up properly 08:54:24 Online tiles is preeeetty cool :D 08:54:32 I also like the butchering 08:57:45 galehar: Experimental Skill Pool ChangeS? 08:57:58 yes, I'm trying to move it under skills 08:58:05 Shows up just fine for me 08:58:16 link me, galehar? 08:58:47 The skills folder doesn't show up on the main page 08:59:25 I think you need to add a header that says Skills on the start page 08:59:36 details, please 09:00:02 It's ok, I figured it out :) 09:00:09 Yes, it missed a header 09:00:19 on the skills page 09:06:14 roger :) 09:08:51 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 09:09:12 can someone look at my game on CAO? (bh) 09:09:22 the entry vault I got is incredibly bad. 09:10:36 That one is fairly old, I remember having it ages ago, maybe as far back as the 0.7 line? 09:10:56 it took me the better part of 600 turns to get through the plants 09:14:34 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:17:11 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:28:16 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 09:29:37 -!- ophanim has joined ##crawl-dev 09:49:25 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 09:52:29 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:52:40 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 09:52:43 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 09:55:44 Hi MarvinPA and dpeg! 10:00:41 moin dpeg 10:03:14 Hi all! 10:03:14 dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 10:03:25 !messages 10:03:25 (1/1) casmith789 said (20h 18m 48s ago): Unofficial tournament is set to start 14 May. Tournament rules are in tournament[1]. 10:03:43 I saw.. this looks very good. Thanks for setting it up! 10:04:05 it was elliptic and rwbarton :) 10:08:19 What was the reason behind May 14? 10:09:33 it still looks vulnerable to playing atheist and picking up Xom on the way up 10:11:31 also, there's an award for just playing for 27 hours? doesn't that encourage grinding? 10:12:11 dpeg: starting (and ending) on a weekend seemed like a good idea and May 7 was too soon to be sure to get everything working 10:12:18 I could write a bot to do that one quite easily 10:12:58 ais523: but why would you? the pennants aren't worth any points... 10:13:44 elliptic: yes, good point 10:14:22 elliptic: why are the pennants there, if people aren't encouraged to aim for them? 10:14:42 think of them more as milestones of accomplishment 10:15:12 most of them are things that you will just get from playing normally (more of them depending on how far you typically get) 10:15:16 hmm, I have huge philosophy differences with ##crawl-dev on tournaments 10:15:26 I think tournaments should reward abnormal play as well 10:15:30 as you were going to do normal play anyway 10:16:03 there's a very strong impression I get that Crawl is designed to only ever be played normally, which as far as I can tell just artifically reduces its replay value for no reason 10:16:07 well, they do reward some abnormal play... but the philosophy is that people should also be able to have fun with the tournament playing pretty normally :) 10:16:32 there are certainly some tourney awards/points that you'll only get if you specifically try for them 10:16:36 elliptic: wouldn't they have fun just from winning? 10:17:00 "fun with the tournament" 10:17:13 certainly they can still have fun just from winning :) 10:17:50 and even not considering special stuff like tourney, I'd say crawl has far more replay value than any other roguelike I've played 10:18:14 perhaps I just don't understand what you mean by "normally" 10:18:21 that's got to be a matter of personal opinion 10:18:36 yes? 10:18:56 I find all Crawl games to be much the same no matter what character I'm playing and what I find in the dungeon, yet find NetHack games more varied even playing the same character exclusively, but I suspect we're looking at different things 10:19:43 well, I found nethack to have extremely poor replayability personally 10:19:56 but I suppose that's because I don't see much difference between meleeing things to death and spellcasting them to death 10:20:32 all characters in Crawl are "attack/spell/method for beating ordinary monsters", "attack/spell/method for beating monsters that aren't beaten by the first method", "thing to do between fights to prepare for the next one" 10:20:59 and nethack isn't like that? 10:21:04 because combat is mostly all there is, as there's nothing you can do to influence item drops or to customize your character, beyond shops and spell selection 10:21:30 nethack is like that except that you beat ordinary monsters with elbereth on every character 10:21:30 NetHack isn't like that because it isn't focused on combat at all, it's much more about "how do I get this item/intrinsic I need", or "how do I escape this situation" 10:21:44 -!- gvdm has joined ##crawl-dev 10:21:56 in Crawl, the former result is "at random" or "by picking a specific god", the second is "use an escape item, if it works, or die", and the general advice is not to get into those situations in the first place 10:22:07 in NetHack, the answers seem different every game 10:22:13 but Crawl isn't focused on that 10:22:17 so it's a difference in attitude 10:22:27 answer to how to I get this item I need in nethack: go to castle, get wand of wishing, wish for the same items every game 10:22:39 only, that there are certain actions that are more worthwhile in nethack than others 10:22:41 most people consider that a severe balance deficiency 10:22:43 in crawl you have to make do with the items you find 10:23:04 also, "go to castle" is the game, pretty much, everything beyond there is indeed repetitive and pointless 10:23:28 in crawl you have to make do with the items you find <--- yes, I'm claiming that this actually reduces both the tactical and strategic depth of the game, as well as making it harder to balance 10:23:29 crawl is extremely boring, independent of what items i find. I always die 10:23:48 ais523: maybe you need to learn how to make better use of the items you find in crawl 10:23:53 there are plenty of interesting options 10:23:57 elliptic: oh, I acknowledge that I'm very bad at Crawl 10:24:09 but I've been watching players rather better than me 10:24:13 ais523: streaks are won, it's not as random as you think. 10:24:40 the items you find in Crawl generally have only one use each, so it's just a case of learning how best to use each one, with no tension but use now vs. use later 10:24:53 But it is true that for streaks, gameplay is somewhat degenerated (overly paranoid). But now, how does Nethack streaking gameplay look like? 10:24:59 and you can just memorise in which order items are useful, and which one's the least useful item to get you out of any one situation 10:25:04 I can see how dying early game all the time would make you find crawl boring, yes... but you haven't seen most of the game then :) 10:25:15 ais523: you are vastly oversimplifying things 10:25:27 if you can be good at crawl from memorizing lists of items, go win it 10:25:36 ais523: wands only do one thing in Crawl, but when to use them is a no-brainer decision 10:25:36 elliptic: I'll leave that up to autorobin 10:25:46 elliptic: you need one of those fine irony detectors. best a german made. they are the best (for obvious reasons) :) 10:25:54 I will say that every single death I've had in Crawl recently is due to being insufficiently spoiled on strategy 10:25:59 as in, not knowing how to do tha 10:26:06 and you'd have survived in the same situations because you did 10:26:08 "spoiled on strategy" <- I have no idea what that means 10:26:10 (except for the deaths caused by typos) 10:26:25 elliptic: you know what to run away from, what to fight, and what to treat specially 10:26:25 is it the same thing as "made a bad decision"? 10:26:29 Crawl has been won just from observing the game output. 10:26:38 dpeg: indeed, I agree that it can be 10:26:57 and the way it's done is by dying to everything in the game one after another until you've memorised the best way to deal with all situations, because there's only a few hundred or so 10:26:59 You have to be observant and resourceful, though. 10:27:26 ogres are a good example; they kill a whole load of new players 10:27:30 This is obviously wrong, of course. Crawl back to the Gnomish Mines! 10:27:35 but pretty much every Crawl player can deal with them pretty well every time 10:27:47 I mean, even I can; and likewise, I rarely have trouble with Sigmund 10:27:55 ais523: seriously, this started when you claimed that crawl replayability is hurt because "Crawl is designed to only ever be played normally", and I still don't know what you meant by that 10:27:57 whereas at the moment, the place I normally get stuck is somewhere around Lair 10:28:44 elliptic: NetHack gives a lot of leeway; and that can either be used to make a win near-guaranteed, or to let players recover from mistakes in interesting ways, or to do unusual self-imposed challenges 10:28:57 there are plenty of self-imposed challenges in crawl 10:28:59 ??challenge 10:29:00 It is good that Nethack and Crawl have completely different design concepts. It is no good to tell crawlers in their very own dev channel that the crawl design concept is bad. 10:29:00 challenge[1/19]: Win with as many runes as possible collected while already carrying the orb. monky and notthepope hold the current best with 1 rune on the ascent (slimy). 10:29:02 I spent ages with SpAK (then SpCK), trying to maximise my chance of getting the abyssal rune 10:29:04 19 in learndb currently 10:29:31 elliptic: my fear is that the devs are trying to eliminate them even when there's no reason to do so 10:29:38 there are also at least a half-dozen in the tourney rules 10:29:40 erisdiscordia won a foodless game, didn't he? 10:29:41 dpeg: I agree, I was just trying to explain the difference 10:29:41 more really 10:29:48 doy: yes 10:29:57 doy: as a mummy? 10:30:04 ais523: no, spriggan 10:30:12 ah, and just speedrunning before nutrition ran out? 10:30:43 or using Zin to replenish nutrition? 10:30:52 ais523: please, you still haven't indicated one way in which "the devs are trying to eliminate them" 10:30:52 that's the sort of thing I like being possible in a game 10:31:06 elliptic: I was referring to the tournament rules 10:31:14 what about them? 10:31:19 < ais523> elliptic: my fear is that the devs are trying to eliminate them even when there's no evidence for this at all 10:31:21 fixed this for you 10:31:24 and about how most of the things in the tournament were designed to be got deliberately 10:31:27 elliptic: I can imagine: nerfing Mummy idling; Pan may become finite... 10:31:31 *got accidentally as part of normal play 10:32:06 dpeg: nerfing mummy idling actually spawned a new challenge though! 10:32:08 ??mummyrobin 10:32:09 mummyrobin[1/1]: In this robin challenge you have to wait for monster generation to stop (takes 20k turns) on every level before you can move on to the next. Backtracking to earlier levels is only allowed if you have stopped monster generation in the entire branch. If you are shafted, use your conscience as a guide for what to do. Password: robin 10:32:16 elliptic: you're insane :) 10:32:22 wasn't my idea :P 10:32:46 ais523: would you like me to point out dozens of things in the tourney that you won't get from normal play 10:32:57 ais523: or would you prefer to actually read the rules yourself? 10:33:02 !hs blinkrobin 10:33:02 200. blinkrobin the Cutter (L4 VpWr), slain by a giant frog on D:3 on 2011-01-23, with 233 points after 27535 turns and 0:47:38. 10:33:05 elliptic: I've read the rule now, and agree that there are some things in there 10:33:07 ais523: my comment was about the pennants 10:33:16 oh, great, you've read what you are talking about now! 10:33:32 A big game like Crawl (or Nethack) will have players playing for many different reasons. There are powergamers, players who play for years are never found a rune, roleplayers, handicappers... we think of all them, but not equally so. 10:33:33 I had done beforehand, but was referring to comments in the channel itself 10:33:39 so I think it was a bit of a misunderstanding all along 10:34:23 (I'm a bit weird, in that the only rune I found was Abyssal, and only by specifically trying it; my otherwise best game reached Snake:$) 10:34:45 I know my real problem in doing well at Crawl, which is that I don't enjoy running around problems I can't beat any other way 10:35:05 and so I normally take them on anyway, and often die as a result 10:36:35 (in NetHack, running round a problem is typically either impossible or very difficult, which is another difference in philosophy; it forces you to deal with out-of-depth monsters in branches where those appear, but there typically is a solution, even for monsters tens of levels out of depth) 10:37:11 (typically this solution involves elbereth) 10:37:34 actually, typically it doesn't 10:37:48 I agree that crawl having larger levels means that running away is a much more important skill, though 10:38:02 elbereth only goes so far; it's great for clearing out mobs of regular monsters, less good against out-of-depth enemies 10:38:05 ais523: only if you go out of your way to not use it 10:38:27 doy: well, I'm thinking of the time I found myself next to a master mind flayer on a dark mines level 10:38:39 that's a classic elbereth situation 10:38:45 and rather than risking a 28% chance of near-certain death, I beat it without elberething 10:38:46 03dolorous * r0ab6b11ea7e1 10/crawl-ref/source/artefact.cc: Disallow artefact holy wrath weapons with Ashenzari's name on them. 10:38:54 via AI exploits 10:39:21 "strategy spoilers" you mean 10:39:37 indeed, I wouldn't have expected an unspoilt player to get that 10:39:40 although they might have done 10:39:50 NetHack is by far not a perfect game with respect to what I'm describing 10:40:06 well then why do you keep referring to it when you criticize crawl :P 10:40:13 elliptic: I don't have much to compare to 10:40:38 I could compare to Pokémon Mystery Dungeon, which does better, but most people here won't have played the bonus dungeons, which are the only ones with enough difficulty to make them nontrivial (and they're really hard) 10:41:23 one interesting factor is that it pretty much has felid-style lifesaving, in that lifesaving items are very rare but activate automatically, so it's a case of picking them up as you find them, effectively giving you a pacing of extra lives through the game 10:42:15 dpeg: returning to the topic of the tourney, is there any chance that it could be announced on CDO at some point? 10:42:18 03dolorous * r8d47146dea62 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/features.txt: Remove the overly specific time reference for when Ashenzari was cursed. 10:42:32 I should really write all this sort of thing down separately, though, talking about it in-channel isn't going to be very useful as I keep saying things other than what I mean, etc 10:44:50 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 10:52:20 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * r849cdca7a309 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Update TODO 10:52:31 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * r2bc4ca21328c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (melee_attack.cc melee_attack.h): Merge player_calc_hit_damage and mons_calc_damage 10:52:32 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * r1f96033f4cec 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.cc: Clean up comments and #ifdef DEBUG_DIAGNOSTIC mprfs 10:52:33 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * r221c9c8afce3 10/crawl-ref/source/melee_attack.h: Group and organize melee_attack methods 10:52:54 elliptic: absolutely. Keep pushing me until it's announced on CDO! 10:59:03 Killed sleeping spore with rock, no Ballists created, 0 XP gained (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3909) by XuaXua 11:03:42 Did the save format change in 0.8? 11:06:22 Nabend! 11:06:52 compared to 0.7? definitely 11:07:06 rax? 11:07:36 los, dpeg - play tiles online! :D 11:08:24 Napkin: Yes. 11:08:41 yes, the fileformat changed and the content 11:08:48 I have a user with a borked save and I used to know how to fix it and now I don't. ;) (not that it was always fixable, but I used to just delete the level file and half the time that solved the problem) 11:09:04 ah, this got a bit tricky now 11:09:10 kilobyte knows how 11:09:30 comething like ./crawl --remove-level 5a char.cs 11:09:36 *something 11:10:35 Oh jeez, and I have to remember all the branch codes? :P 11:10:49 I mean that sounds clever in the long term. Are there docs? *pokes around* 11:11:28 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:11:43 It's not in the help text. ;) 11:11:52 exactly what i just realized too :D 11:11:54 Napkin: I cannot play tiles :) 11:12:27 checking source, rax, 1s 11:12:38 hehe, dpeg - too many spectators around you? :) 11:14:35 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 11:14:44 -edit-save 11:16:16 rax: bin/crawl-web-958cf34 --edit-save ls 11:16:28 that shows the appropriate help 11:17:15 like bin/crawl-web-958cf34 --edit-save crawl-web-958cf34/saves/Napkin.cs ls 11:17:36 oh, something like bin/crawl-web-958cf34 --edit-save crawl-web-958cf34/saves/Napkin.cs rm D:1 should work 11:18:07 Thank you! 11:18:10 That is super useful. 11:18:20 didn't know either! :D 11:18:34 ls seems to show all "chunks" 11:18:42 not bad :) 11:22:05 Yeah I like that, actually. It saves me remembering which bit is Lair. 11:22:15 true! 11:23:11 and you rax? seen online tiles yet? ;> 11:23:27 I think they are really great! 11:23:38 Online tiles? 11:23:42 What? Really? 11:23:44 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:23:49 http://crawl.develz.org/webtiles 11:24:15 :D 11:24:17 online tiles will make me a little sad until you can watch them in ascii :/ 11:24:23 Sadly, my browser does not support WebSockets. 11:24:30 ah, pity 11:24:42 Maybe Safari will work. 11:24:44 firefox >4, chrom{e,ium} and opera 11 11:24:52 Ahh, don't have any of those. 11:24:57 Should probably upgrade to FF4. 11:25:31 Am not gonna do that just now, but will check that out when I do, because that's awesome. 11:25:33 safari should be able to do websockets too, google tells me 11:25:39 Oh lemme try then! 11:25:44 elliptic: it doesn't even seem like it would be that difficult... it just needs to output ascii in addition to outputting tiles, rather than one or the other. you might get some weird stuff, like not being able to see what the other person is doing to view monsters or look at inventory or whatever 11:25:56 but you'd at least be able to see the general nature of the game 11:26:17 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:26:54 it's quite beta yet (no popup help, no graphical inventory, no tabs) - but it's nice already, me thinks :) 11:27:15 ...wowwwwww 11:27:18 this is impressive 11:27:20 rock _on_ 11:27:23 and! 11:27:33 0-1% cpu usage, thanks to edlothiol latest changes 11:27:40 only the normal cpu usage of crawl itself 11:27:43 the cpu use is particularly impressive 11:27:56 i had rather high cpu use from shellinabox 11:28:31 i guess because SIAB has to render everything as a HTML DOM 11:28:41 but watch out, rax - your game is counted in the stats! ;) 11:29:18 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:30:00 Hahahahaha. 11:30:07 Even though it's a beta game? 11:30:23 i think erocrawl gets counted, too 11:30:56 i made it use the same configs/macros/morgues/logfile/milestone files as crawl from masterbranch on running in DGL :) 11:31:09 -on 11:31:34 but saves are separated. i was told there may be incompatibilities 11:34:04 Napkin: do you know where would be the best place to look to see the schema that henzell's data is stored in? 11:34:26 I could export a schema if you gave me a command to run, probably. 11:34:55 no idea, Eronarn - but the source is mirrored here: http://git.develz.org/?p=henzell.git;a=summary 11:35:03 napkin: any possibility of getting webtiles working with 0.8? (maybe 0.8.1, I guess?) if so, it would count for the tourney... 11:35:25 I think so, elliptic 11:35:54 rax: i'm envisioning that it's just a single table, generated by parsing morgue files as they come in, or the like? just having like a 50 game sample of that table would be enough 11:36:23 Webtiles will make the numbers of online players explore... :) 11:36:30 napkin: cool, I can't stand tiles personally but I know there are some people who would really like that 11:36:48 I love tiles and I agree, elliptic 11:37:09 eronarn: do you mean something like http://crawl.akrasiac.org/logfile08 ? 11:37:11 it would be really nice if we could get both console and tiles online, and able to be switched between 11:37:33 elliptic: yeah, if those are the fields as exactly corresponds to what's in the database 11:37:41 (i don't know if we currently collect fields not displayed via henzell) 11:38:14 by henzell do you mean sequell? or what do you mean by displayed? 11:38:49 either :) i mean i don't know if the range of sequell-accessible fields corresponds to what you linked, or if either of those corresponds to what's available in the db 11:39:20 (okay, i know they obviously have high overlap, but if there are currently non-accessible fields i'd want to know about them) 11:39:52 I believe sequell searches a database that is formed by parsing files like the ones I linked to along with milestones files 11:40:02 yeah, sequell has milestones too 11:40:12 I'm not sure whether all the information in that logfile actually is parsed into the database though 11:40:17 oh yeah, i forgot all about milestones 11:40:30 that'd be one i'd definitely want 11:40:41 http://crawl.akrasiac.org/milestones08 11:41:33 sequell also includes things like 'splat' 11:41:42 the actual henzell/sequell code is at http://github.com/greensnark/dcss_henzell 11:41:49 which might be interesting, depending on what you're doing (but probably not all that much) 11:42:37 doy: i'm looking at doing a site for CAO similar to what TOME has 11:42:57 Eronarn: I have _no idea_ what it looks like off the top of my head. 11:43:23 rax: that's fine :) i really just need a data dump, there's no way it could be complex enough that i'd have problems interpreting it 11:43:49 eronarn: what TOME site? 11:43:54 http://te4.org/ 11:43:57 (probably)? 11:44:31 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 11:44:53 yeah 11:45:19 here's what one of my wins looks like as a dump: http://www.tome.te4.org/characters/1842/tome/12bd7817-29a0-11e0-84b0-001cc000edf0 11:45:24 so much nicer than crawl's format 11:46:13 Eronarn: I don't mind well formatted dumps, but If I'm looking at a dump (which already has tons of information), I don't want to see most of the regular stuff that's on the site. 11:47:54 I like tome's format, but I would have dumps be on a page that is minimalistic. eg, without most (or any) navigation or side-panels so you're utilizing as close to 100% of your real estate as possible and minimizing potential visual distractions. 11:49:36 if you want prettier dumps then you probably aren't actually interested in the logfiles/milestones because they are missing tons of information, no? 11:50:03 elliptic: i want to know what data's out there before i start planning it 11:50:06 (e.g. equipment, AC, EV) 11:50:56 that's a lot of different resists 11:54:14 you're probably going to have better results just parsing the existing dumps, if that's what you're going for 12:11:53 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [*.net *.split] 12:11:53 -!- syllogism has quit [*.net *.split] 12:11:53 -!- elliptic has quit [*.net *.split] 12:11:54 -!- Zao has quit [*.net *.split] 12:11:55 -!- felirx has quit [*.net *.split] 12:13:59 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:13:59 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 12:13:59 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 12:13:59 -!- Zao has joined ##crawl-dev 12:13:59 -!- felirx has joined ##crawl-dev 12:15:24 -!- edlothiol has left ##crawl-dev 12:15:27 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 12:15:27 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 12:17:21 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 12:18:31 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:30:22 -!- eith has quit [] 12:30:51 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 12:45:17 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 12:56:57 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 12:57:19 -!- stabwound has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 13:09:04 -!- w4ldf33 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:09:44 -!- gvdm has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:19:46 Assertion failed when using an unidentified wand on a player ghost (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3910) by kurzedmetal 13:29:19 -!- gvdm has joined ##crawl-dev 13:32:41 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 13:46:40 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 13:50:28 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 13:50:29 -!- neunon has quit [Changing host] 13:50:29 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 13:51:11 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:55:52 Napkin (L1 TrGl) (D:1) 13:59:02 -!- neunon has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:03:14 -!- gvdm has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:28 -!- gvdm has joined ##crawl-dev 14:06:09 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:06:15 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 14:14:52 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 14:26:40 Out of curiosity, why do players have auxiliary attacks? They are a exception to the normal mechanics of combat and DCSS in general, it seems. From combat-related skills that I can think of, Unarmed Combat is the only one which provides benefits when you're not explicitly using a weapon (or spell) directly associated with "Unarmed Combat". 14:28:10 !seen dpeg 14:28:10 I last saw dpeg at Mon May 2 19:06:15 2011 UTC (21m 55s ago) joining the channel. 14:29:25 Cryp71c: hi! 14:29:38 I don't know. Tradition ;) 14:30:04 to differentiate the school? 14:30:38 also, UC can be thought of as an invocation/evocation equivalent for mutations 14:31:07 Cryp71c: so let's analyse... Auxiliary attacks provide a choice between shields and no shields, as well as a reason to train one more melee skill. 14:31:21 And they make some mutations relevant, as ais523 points out. 14:32:22 currently nobody trains UC skill just for aux attacks 14:32:25 UC certainly affects Mutations, but the aux attacks are not their only (or even primary) manifestation in the game. 14:32:29 elliptic: precisely. 14:33:13 elliptic: partly because the only real way to do that is victory dancing, I suspect 14:33:15 I think aux attacks are fine but they should be buffed (and regular unarmed should be nerfed) 14:33:18 ais523: no 14:33:27 ais523: because it isn't worth the xp 14:33:35 ah, OK 14:33:43 people turn off UC skill at 1 when they grow horns or whatever, usually 14:33:50 (if they are using a weapon) 14:33:55 hmm 14:34:04 especially if they're already hybriding into SC or something else. 14:34:43 -!- MadCoyote has joined ##crawl-dev 14:34:52 SC? 14:34:56 spellcasting. 14:34:58 spellcasting, I presume 14:35:00 (starcraft) 14:35:11 didn't you know as an OgHu I can hybrid out to starcraft? 14:35:11 :) 14:36:21 Cryp71c: As usual, I agree with what elliptic says. It would be nice if eventually the various unarmed attacks were more distinct, and UC as main attack more in line with the rest of melee. 14:36:23 Figured I'd mention it, one of the curiosities I had started thinking about in my rewrite. 14:38:15 dpeg: as a side note, all the player vs monster inconsistencies make unifying the combat code challenging 0_o 14:38:39 < elliptic> I think aux attacks are fine but they should be buffed (and regular unarmed should be nerfed) 14:38:41 Though - of course - changing those inconsistencies so they are more consistent from players to monsters is big on the balance impact. 14:38:46 So I'm not suggesting that it be changed. 14:38:58 one problem with this would be encouraging unarmed types to want to be heavily mutated with all kinds of auxes 14:39:05 Just a heads up, maybe something to keep in mind with future balance considerations. 14:39:05 or, well, not problem - but side effect 14:39:34 i wonder if it would actually be better if UC did not affect auxes at all 14:40:28 eronarn: well, the difference between a headbutt without horns and a headbutt with horns could still be relatively small 14:40:38 or a kick or whatever 14:41:11 so that the effect of getting mutations still isn't huge enough to make mutation-mongering a real problem 14:41:46 mutation mongering to get the combat mutations would be quite a feat, there are more easily abused mechanics by several magnitudes. 14:41:52 i guess a good question to ask would be, how much of a big deal should horns 3 make to an unarmed character? what about to a melee character? 14:42:10 getting horns 3 by mutation scumming isn't very plausible 14:42:26 you might get horns 1 + hooves 1 or something 14:42:47 it is really hard to get level 2 or 3 of a specific desired mutation :) 14:43:25 there's also the question of how should multiple auxes work together - e.g., if having X auxes = 100% chance one of them kicks in, X/2 auxes = 50% chance one of them kicks in. vs. 100% chance one random aux of your kicks in (so getting a new aux = decreases odds of using other auxes) vs. the current system where they have mostly-independent chances of kicking in (so you can get 0 in a turn, or 5) 14:43:38 so the serious body-slot mutations that some races get could be significant but getting a random level of horns wouldn't have to be a big deal 14:43:51 yeah, that could be good 14:43:54 'sharp fingernails' 14:44:01 (cuts off hydra heads!) 14:47:15 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:53:35 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 14:55:02 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:01:54 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 15:16:18 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:16:26 Can one of the coder reply to the new c-r-d mail on Nettiles? 15:16:28 galehar: Hi! 15:16:51 hi! 15:17:58 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:28:31 03dolorous * rd46eab455259 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Tweak punctuation. 15:31:14 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:58 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:40:29 -!- gvdm has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:42 -!- gvdm has joined ##crawl-dev 15:55:05 those macros look scrareh 16:05:02 -!- w4ldf33 has left ##crawl-dev 16:05:29 hey guys, i'll shut down the webtiles to switch to a new version, including a fix for #3908 16:09:17 is it possible in your config file to automatically have spells be assigned to certain letters when the spells are memorized? 16:11:34 -!- elly has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:12:23 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 16:19:11 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 16:20:29 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:22 -!- Jordan7hm has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:27:39 -!- Jordan7hm has joined ##crawl-dev 16:34:09 arg, shit 16:34:22 just deleted the webtiles saves by mistake... 16:34:27 sorry! :-$ 16:37:21 I think you mean the server deleted the webtiles saves... yes 16:37:55 the fact that you were there, pushing buttons, is merely an unhappy coincidence :P 16:38:02 hehe 16:38:24 well, but it's a good timing to switch from master branch to 0.8 :) 16:38:29 :D 16:38:38 will it be there for the tournament? 16:38:45 probably 16:42:15 oh wow, very exciting! I may be overestimating the appeal of webtiles here, but I hope that CDO is ready for some extreme server load once an official announcement is made 16:42:53 i'll just shutdown apache and all will be good :D 16:43:20 well, it's an i930 now with 12gb of ram - hope it'll manage :) 16:52:03 Stable branch on tiles.crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.8.0-69-ga9c106e (32) 16:56:31 alright, it's back, it's 0.8 and it's people are now being redirected to https://tiles.crawl.develz.org 16:57:06 !tell galehar try again. now it's 100% ssl @ https://tiles.crawl.develz.org 16:57:06 Napkin: OK, I'll let galehar know. 16:57:33 * Napkin whispers: there is also the non-ssl version available at http://tiles.crawl.develz.org 16:59:25 edlothiol (L1 MuIE) (D:1) 17:01:38 -!- Jordan_7hm has joined ##crawl-dev 17:03:02 -!- Jordan7hm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:07:42 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 17:08:37 hey galehar 17:09:05 hey 17:09:05 galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:09:11 !messages 17:09:15 (1/1) Napkin said (12m 8s ago): try again. now it's 100% ssl @ https://tiles.crawl.develz.org 17:09:43 I was about to try it, but from home :) 17:09:53 will do again tomorrow, many thanks! 17:10:01 give me and edlothiol a second, we're fixing a bug right now :) 17:10:11 should work for you from at work now too :) 17:10:23 that's great :) 17:13:35 who is running the xw bot? 17:14:03 it's constantly using 15-30% cpu - could you please tone it down a little? 17:14:45 -!- Jordan_7hm is now known as Jordan7hm 17:24:04 What do you think about replacing the spell slots formula from 2*Spc-1+XL to 2*Spc+1 ? 17:26:24 why 17:28:05 to make choosing spells more crucial, and engame spellcasters more diverse? 17:28:48 you forgot the part where it makes raising spellcasting high even more of a no-brainer 17:29:10 with only 2/3 the spell slots, you'd be far more pressed to use only the best spells, ie, they would be _less_ diverse 17:30:35 that too 17:30:46 galehar: yes 17:31:14 it'd also greatly negatively effect the spells available to early characters, but not be much of a drain on late game characters, since they typically already can afford to lose soem of their less-used spells 17:31:40 if you can keep junk like CBL together with main guns like Tornado, you can afford to play with it and use it in some cases. With very few slots, you learn just Tornado and other staples. 17:31:41 kilobyte: you have to pick some killing power in the spell bouquet... I think reducing spell slots is a good idea. 17:31:54 If we're messing with spellcasting, I'd say we start by removing its effect on spell power. 17:32:04 galehar: yes, that is a first start. 17:32:14 I feel like there's already little enough room for situational spells for much of the game 17:32:20 My proposal was to remove XL from slots, which is a boost to Spc. 17:32:29 Wensley: I never feel like that. 17:32:43 only if you replace that with a boost from XL or something, otherwise you'd have people get a few near-free skill levels 17:32:47 You can always pick up Blink, MC, Lev, even quite early. 17:33:44 Regardless of the formula, it's a reasonable question why XL has an effect on slots in the first place. That's quite unusual for Crawl. 17:33:58 you'd also have to micromanage slots 17:34:22 kilobyte: that's now a finite minigame, with the SA spell absent. 17:34:28 the moment you get a new spell, you'd run to forget something. Currently there's some leeway. 17:34:28 xl and fighting both affect HP 17:35:09 dpeg: maybe it's just me, but I enjoy the ritual of immediately sitting down to memorize my first new spell upon hitting level 2 17:35:13 Eronarn: I'm actually proposing to move some of the weight from XL to fighting in the HP formula 17:35:24 Eronarn: yes, MP and HP seem natural to grow with XL. 17:35:40 Wensley: that'd be the same with my formula. 17:36:08 Shift-movement doesn't report newly seen items/features (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3911) by rriegs 17:36:42 galehar: ok? xl will still affect it 17:36:47 gaining spellcasting levels doesn't have quite the same fanfare as gaining experience levels, but I suppose your objective is to make experience level as unimportant as possible? 17:37:08 Wensley: not literally XL 2, but 1+2*Spc would allow for gaining spell 2 about the same time as you do now. 17:38:11 so trog users will get no mp at all? 17:38:25 Wensley: one of the questions is whether an illiterate who dreams of casting should really have 27 slots at the end. 17:38:31 casmith789: huh? 17:38:43 well they get no spellcasting and no invocations 17:39:06 dpeg: should a spellcaster have >100 HP at the end? 17:39:06 HP and MP will keep growing with XL. 17:39:07 oh spell slots not mp 17:39:08 what about >200? 17:39:09 sorry 17:39:36 Eronarn: this is something different... about galehar's HP-from-XL formula, right? 17:39:56 no, i'm saying that changes because 'this leads to an unintuitive result' is bad 17:39:59 with that spell slots change I'd feel a lot more inclined to grind spellcasting to 27 on more characters for the extra spells. Right now if I'm casting a lot of spells I usually feel like I have enough slots at spellcasting 18-20, xl 27. 17:40:07 it's also not that hard to get 27 spellcasting, just a bit tedious 17:40:24 kilobyte: with that reasoning, why do we have finite spell slots at all? 17:41:09 Shouldn't we nerf spellcasting instead of buffing it? 17:41:09 of course, my proposal is only the first step in making slot-management more interesting... the other one would be to make spells (in some way) more expensive if they're new to the spell set 17:41:58 making the amount of spell slots a spell takes variable would make it hard to gague how much room you have for new spells 17:42:07 some improvements could be done on spell slots management but not by making it more dependent on spellcasting. 17:42:11 galehar: my point is defining it better. If it only deals with slots, hunger, MP, that'd be good imo. 17:42:46 the potion of brilliance will be made a lot worse if you cannot memorise so many spells. Not giving an opinion on whether this is a good or bad thing 17:42:55 evilmike: the same could be rightly said when spell ranges and spell noise were introduced. 17:43:06 I think it should also affect spell success. Just remove the effect on power. 17:43:26 doy: with infinite slots, you don't have to choose 17:43:59 doy: but if your choice is too important, there's an incentive for minmaxing 17:44:06 dpeg: spell ranges actually are still a big problem for me, I get around it a bit by switching the z and Z keys (since Z is a bit better at showing ranges when casting) 17:44:31 evilmike: yes, I know. But it did help a lot with differentiating spells. 17:44:52 oh yes, thats true 17:45:28 for spell slots, we could reduce the total available slots, but reduce the price of spell for which you have a high skill 17:45:35 I proposed a quite simple system for slot costs. Would be easy to understand imo. 17:46:02 galehar: i think that'd be nice, as long as high skill were noticeably high 17:46:02 dpeg: link? 17:47:55 also the question of how the reduction would work (-2 reduction on a L1 spell = ?) 17:48:09 one issue with reducing spell slot costs with high skill is that you will always have high skill when casting high level spells 17:48:33 thus, in practice level 9 spells would cost 6 slots (for example) by the time you can actually cast them 17:48:43 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=444 17:48:49 2/3 down 17:49:11 "Proposal: A spell you want to learn costs (level + max(0,schools-2)) slots, where "schools" is the number of all schools present in your spell list, including the potential new spell." 17:49:37 that sucks 17:49:38 but I explain something about the scope in that posting, too 17:49:42 Eronarn: thank you 17:49:52 Now I recall why I take my break! 17:50:32 evilmike: you could start them at level 12 17:51:12 Dispersal arrows don't do anything when shot by deep elf master archers. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3912) by elliptic 17:51:29 Hmm, that proposal seems like it would cause something weird once you memorize spells that take you over the school limit 17:52:15 ie, people who use only Magic Dart, IMB and IOOD would get a boost... except their spells already take only 12 slots total 17:52:23 evilmike: yes, the proposal is not ideal. But it's one simple way to put a penalty on generalising. My main gripe with it is that the order in which you pick up spells does matter. 17:52:48 wait, it'd apply based only on learning new ones, and not retroactively? 17:52:50 wow that's even worse 17:52:56 The thread is long, and there have been interesting replies. 17:53:36 kilobyte: that is an interesting challenge actually :) n78291 got to zot:5 like that 17:54:05 there's also a question of whether you want characters to cast a diverse selection of spells or not 17:54:29 penalties for having a wide variety of spell schools would lead a lot of characters to focus mostly on charms and air 17:55:10 yeah, even pure conjurers who do fire end up with 4-5 schools at least 17:56:14 presumably it would take the same number of slots as now only at skill 20+? 17:57:01 alright, webtiles are back - now with function-keys working and reachable at https://tiles.crawl.develz.org - company proxy proof ;> 17:57:13 Another simple solution would be to increase the levels of the offending spells, but that'd cause problems of its own. 17:57:16 there's also the weird issue of some spells already being 3-school 17:57:48 and single-spell schools being broken 17:57:52 maybe that system would work better if the penalty only counted the first school of the spell (so a conj/fire spell would only count as conj for those purposes) 17:58:54 what 'first' school 17:59:20 yeah, I know they are all counted equally right now. That would be a change 17:59:44 I just meant the first one listed in the menu 18:01:30 In any case, the current situation is not satisfying and part of the reason why casters are so versatile and feel better than fighters. Thinking about how to make them think more about spell selection is good and should be done without fear for saying something silly. 18:01:31 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 18:01:43 Yay deepleg! <3 18:02:09 Eronarn: please be less confrontational! 18:02:26 Hi due 18:02:34 agreed @ Eronarn 18:02:43 evilmike: the first one listed is one whose bit value is smaller 18:02:45 agreed @ due @ Eronarn, i mean 18:02:55 ahhh i need caffeine 18:03:03 * dpeg wonders if Napkin will get lost in recursion :P 18:04:06 :D 18:04:53 galehar, please let me know tomorrow if it works from at work for you now too :) 18:05:15 yes, I'll tell you, don't worry 18:07:06 bedtime 18:07:08 by 18:07:11 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:32 hey dpeg? 18:08:37 Yes? 18:08:38 I'd personally find it a lot more interesting if spellpower or spell success was what was penalized, rather than spell slots. Instead of just being like "you can't memorize this spell unless you forget x first" it would be more like "you can memorize this spell, but [tradeoffs go here]" 18:08:46 my dad has won quite a few combos by now! 18:08:49 and no, I dont actually have a concrete proposal about that :P 18:08:59 evilmike: sure sure, but we're reaching dreamland that way :) 18:09:02 last was kobold assassin of yred 18:09:07 Napkin: <3 18:09:20 Napkin: with nettiles, he can take part in the tourney :) 18:09:36 now he's trying spriggan, since he saw how nice short blades can be :) 18:09:40 evilmike: slots is quite obviously an underused resource, so I am trying to capitalise on that 18:09:57 it could really be as simple as just makign it kind of like how armour works. An analogy would be like, every additional spell school you have is like an extra point of EV penalty 18:10:57 dpeg: if your objective is to reward specialists, instead of making slot costs vary as per your tavern proposal, you could allow players to permanently (or semi-permanently) "lock" certain spell schools in exchange for bonus spell slots. What "locking" means specifically could vary... it could do anything from halving spellpower of spells from locked schools, to restricting memorization of... 18:10:59 ...spells from locked schools (such as disallowing memorization until spellcasting = 4 * spell level, for example) 18:11:19 dpeg: speaking of new resources, we need a name for points you get for killing monsters in ZotDef :p 18:11:31 (as the xp pool is going the way of the dodo) 18:11:46 kilobyte: ah! Good point 18:11:53 kilobyte: orb kudos 18:11:57 g'night o/ 18:12:21 Napkin: bye! 18:12:22 (whoever was told of webtiles, let them know of the new address) 18:12:26 Wensley: I don't care so much about specialist vs generalist. I've seen it so often (including my games) that everyone picks up the same cheap spells. That's no good. 18:12:27 do we have a decent proposal for the xp pool stuff yet 18:12:37 doy: galehar has a plan. 18:12:39 (the redirect from topic still works) 18:13:28 doy: yeah, the only point that needs brainstorming is how to give the 1st point in a skill, or, in galehar's writeup, allowing to train it 18:13:55 kilobyte: I believe players should train the first point. 18:14:01 s/allowing/when to allow/ 18:14:12 you mean, victory dance like currently? 18:14:13 Spellcasting; and the interface looks nicer. 18:14:17 is it the same "train only a fixed set of skills and nothing else" toggle thing that i didn't like earlier? 18:14:21 d: 18:14:25 kilobyte: it's just one cheap level. 18:14:33 doy: yes. 18:14:37 spellcasting works differently, you can't train it for free 18:14:44 well, i still don't like it d: 18:14:50 doy: Better + simple solutions are not in sight. 18:15:00 So galehar goes with what's practicable. 18:15:11 i think it's going to be more tedious than victory dancing, personally 18:15:17 is there a link to this proposal? I've looked on the wiki without success 18:15:29 doy: if you train a part of skills via practicing, people will still have to victory dance 18:16:06 kilobyte: if you don't, you force people to use the toggling all the time 18:16:15 dpeg: actually, the first point might be not that bad 18:16:46 dpeg: it does damage the removal of the xp pool somewhat, but not too badly 18:16:59 doy: uhm, why? 18:17:19 for the same reasons that people victory dance now 18:18:03 doy: the whole idea is to have the manual mode simulate what you could get with victory dancing everything, just less tediously. Those who don't bother should get a reasonable set. 18:18:15 yes 18:18:26 doy: did you read up on galehar's explanation? It's new. 18:18:32 if the idea of "reasonable set" was actually reasonable right now, victory dancing wouldn't be an issue anyway 18:19:05 i guess what i'm saying is 18:19:18 i rarely victory dance the exact same skill over and over for long periods of time 18:19:18 doy: about every skill benefits from victory dancing, it's not really possible to know what the player wants 18:19:31 and if we guess it wrong, they will try to game it 18:19:37 so this will end up being more fiddly for my playstyle 18:19:39 and that bothers me 18:19:45 maybe i'm just odd 18:19:48 who knows 18:19:57 doy: try it, you can get a level 9 spell before Lair sub-branches or Vaults 18:20:21 is that a good thing? 18:20:26 no 18:20:41 I'm just pointing that victory dancing gives you a huge edge 18:21:23 i'm just pointing out that by eliminating the extreme abuses, you're making things more difficult for all of the people who aren't playing that way 18:21:56 i'm well aware that victory dancing is terrible 18:22:01 for many reasons 18:22:32 it's terrible, tedious and not fun. And the optimal way to play. 18:22:50 but for those of us that don't care about the optimal way to play 18:22:57 it is reasonably convenient 18:23:22 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:skills:training 18:24:13 dpeg: thanks, I was stuck wandering through experimental skill pool changes :P 18:25:09 doy: so what goal would you propose? I mean the goal, not a way to get there. 18:26:01 not sure what you mean 18:26:20 i think eliminating victory dancing is a good goal 18:26:53 but right now i can play basically without ever touching anything on my skill screen 18:27:02 and just occasionally cast a couple extra spells 18:27:04 and be fine 18:27:44 this won't change 18:28:27 the "automatic" setting would do exactly that: try to come up with something decent for people who don't care or don't know what to train 18:28:43 but i do care, that's the thing 18:29:43 if you do, you can always flip the switch and instead of casting that spell hundreds of times you mark the skill 18:29:52 I think doy's point is that he's using a little victory dance in his games and feels it will be more cumbersome in the future 18:30:42 heck, in the current proposal victory dancing would still work :p 18:30:47 when i'm victory dancing, i don't want 100% of my xp going into that skill 18:31:17 galehar proposed a sliding scale, with *1 and *2 settings 18:31:28 -!- Guest89248 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:31:41 so if you mark two skills as *2 and one as *1, you put 20% xp into the *1 one 18:31:51 -!- Guest89248 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:33:26 the automatic mode is no different, it just adjusts the sliders for you 18:36:42 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:37:01 i guess the goal that i'd like to see is to eliminate victory dancing by penalizing or preventing it in some way, rather than making it less tedious and more possible for everyone 18:37:07 it'd be nice to get other people's feedback though 18:37:14 i really am curious if i'm the only one who feels this way 18:37:55 i like directly raising my skills 18:38:00 doy: I find the manual choice solution to be quite inelegant, but I don't have anything better to show. 18:38:16 with so many skills, it would be really hard to come with a way that's not gameable 18:38:19 i don't think there's a good solution that gets rid of victory dancing 18:38:36 I'm pretty sure any such way would homogenize them a lot, too 18:38:42 better to just roll with it and make victory dancing something that works for unspoiled players too 18:38:46 you can win without touching your skill screen 18:39:26 casmith789: yes, i do it all the time 18:39:39 Axes, Armour and Fighting? This works perfectly :p 18:39:42 exactly. which proves that victory dancing isn't a massive problem 18:39:55 kilobyte: i play mostly spellcasters 18:40:21 casmith789: if players can spend hours to get a little benefit, they'll do it. Our task to prevent that. 18:40:36 dpeg: a couple of them will do it 18:40:42 people will not spend hours to get a little benefit 18:40:45 in general 18:40:50 casmith789: some will(: 18:40:51 eg: abyss scumming 18:40:57 doy: so you are happy with low-level spells then? 18:41:07 kilobyte: I am :) 18:41:10 kilobyte: yeah, for the most part 18:41:19 I almost never cast a spell above level 6 18:41:26 can't really remember the last time i learned a level 8 or 9 spell 18:42:03 some low-level spells are way too powerful right now 18:42:17 if victory dancing is the only way to possibly cast level 8 and 9 spells, then maybe that's what needs to be fixed 18:42:21 Eronarn: yes, that's true 18:43:29 probably it would be worth discussing what we want high level spells to even mean 18:43:38 i think the issue i have with this solution is that it basically forces people to either play at a disadvantage, or be full into min-maxing 18:43:40 since once you hit a L9 spell... that's it 18:44:14 the current state allows for middle ground 18:44:21 Eronarn: not sure what you mean by that 18:45:52 Eronarn: actually, you need multiples. To run a Zig well, you'd need Necromutation or Death's Door, but you need a way to deal damage as well. 18:46:13 kilobyte: you don't at all need necro or ddoor to do a zig 18:46:17 that's 3-4 schools all pumped enough to get top level spells castable 18:46:48 doy: i mean that there is no progression within a specific school once you can cast L9 spells in it - at what point do we want that to happen? 18:47:03 Eronarn: yeah, they can be done other ways by certain players. I mean an average player who is not that good at pulling tricks. 18:47:29 kilobyte: i don't think an average player would even be helped by knowing necromut or ddoor 18:47:36 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:48:02 borg or cblink are much better choices in terms of not requiring skill to use 18:48:10 Eronarn: well, like i said, i pretty much never make it past spell level 7, so the progression seems fine from my playstyle 18:48:19 Eronarn: uhm... switching into lich form is really a game-tipping moment if there's any torment or draining around 18:48:35 kilobyte: people who aren't that experienced do zigs reasonably regularly crusader-style with TSO 18:48:39 and yeah, i can see lichform being quite useful even to new players 18:48:42 not death's door though 18:48:52 you can handle any level except a late pan level, which is far from guaranteed 18:49:41 kilobyte: draining isn't a big deal, lichform helps against torment but it's hardly necessary to have 18:49:56 people do EE/zigs without torment res *all the time* 18:50:48 I'm not saying this can't be done without, it's just thoroughly easier with it 18:51:25 "To run a Zig well, you'd need Necromutation or Death's Door," - this just isn't true 18:52:39 well, then what are you going to do against a Zig:27 full of pan lords? 18:53:29 "not get a zig:27 full of pan lords", probably 18:53:35 if you get only easy levels, you can win with anything, true 18:54:17 but if build A can survive only against easy enemies and build B can handle tough ones, which one is better? 18:54:25 it's not about which is better 18:54:46 nobody at all is arguing that tornado < tornado + (other stuff) 18:55:05 er, >, but you get the point 18:55:32 if you didn't use words like 'need' this wouldn't even be something worth discussing 18:56:16 I have trouble coming up with a character that could win a pan lord deep level without 18:56:36 (mummies of course, duh) 18:57:03 vehu firestormer would probably be fine 19:08:23 -!- gvdm has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:08:32 makhleb icestormer with cboe can do it 19:08:49 also a controlled blink with projected noise user can 19:29:16 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 21:05:00 -!- gvdm has joined ##crawl-dev 21:07:22 Sticks to snakes can be used to generate piety with evil gods (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3913) by 78291 21:07:31 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:42:00 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:17:44 Bubbles in Hive (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3914) by XuaXua 22:55:22 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 22:55:24 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]] 22:57:55 Book contents are strange (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3915) by XuaXua 23:07:03 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:12:46 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 23:50:11 -!- due has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:58:35 -!- due has joined ##crawl-dev